PDA

View Full Version : Habituation



Labarum
08-10-2009, 07:47
Is the habituation the scourge of HiFi?

There is an old Yorkshire adage "I know what I like and I like what I know?

When my Father heard my first very modest HiFi in the early 1970s he did not like it - far too bright (although he did not use the word.) He was used to Glen Miller on an AM Wireless (Radio) or a record player not much better than an acoustic gramophone. These systems were lucky to reach 4KHz. This is what he was raised on, and this is what he liked.

To what extent do we all suffer from the comfortable old slippers syndrome and fail to value a sound that is more accurate?

webby
08-10-2009, 08:32
I think there's probably something in that. I don't know if this is the same thing, but I think that our ears can almost kind of 'upsample' what we hear. For instance, when you hear something you know on a small radio, your ears fill in the gaps, the depth of sound, the clarity etc.

Another example is that I love my car stereo. It's a thick, warm sound that immerses me in the music (being that I'm sat in the middle of it) and it's just a bog standard Honda stereo.

There was an episode of Everybody loves raymond where Ray buys his father all his beloved jazz records on cd so that he can appreciate them even more. His Dad hated them. He wanted the sound his records made, pops and crackles and all!

Anyway, I'm waffling a bit, so......next!

The Grand Wazoo
08-10-2009, 08:38
Well, I think it's also fairly well accepted that the brain compensates for missing bass. The British loudspeaker industry used that to it's benefit for decades! It's also maybe one of the reasons why some folk think 300B's are the best thing since sliced bread - the mid-range is fantastic but everything else is a figment of your imagination!

An over-simplification, but you get the idea

hifi_dave
08-10-2009, 08:54
Well, I think it's also fairly well accepted that the brain compensates for missing bass. The British loudspeaker industry used that to it's benefit for decades! It's also maybe one of the reasons why some folk think 300B's are the best thing since sliced bread - the mid-range is fantastic but everything else is a figment of your imagination!

An over-simplification, but you get the idea

I love it....:lol:

The Grand Wazoo
08-10-2009, 09:16
Hehehe......

A further thought is that this may also have a bearing on the room correction question that's being discussed elsewhere here.

Theory: Your brain will adjust what you hear to something approaching correct. Someone (maybe even someone who has a 'magic wand' like, oh I don't know - an expensive digital room correction device, for example) walks into the room from cold & hears all the problems.

"I can cure this!" he says.

So he:

Does some measurements.
Plugs in the magic wand.
Fiddles with some knobs.
Plays a few test tones......maybe, if you're lucky a track or two of music (remember music?)
Shows you some graphs - before & after.


"Look - I told you I could make it better! The graphs prove it"

You see the empirical evidence & the logical part of your brain tells you this must be better.
You stump up the cash for "the wand".
It's great for a bit because it's different. Sorry, I mean 'correct'.

Six months later you notice you haven't bought any new music for ages.


Conclusion:
'Correct' is not the same as 'right'.

Mike Reed
08-10-2009, 19:45
I willed my ears to compensate for the undynamic, uninvolving presentation from the LFD MCT for a week. They wouldn't take heed !

Even contacted Richard Bews seeking guidance, but learnt that my Black was unlikely to be elevated enough to realise the MCT's potential. (Really !) He did suggest bypassing the 552 pre., though, but there was little fundemental change. Bit tongue in cheek, this, as he's a very helpful and nice person to talk to.

Learning curve for me? You betcha !

Now I hear of Naim Superline experiences of some Michell decks acting an an RFI aerial, and dissipating this build-up with random static discharges through the speakers. The 1812 overture would probably cope, but other music doesn't.

The MCT was quiet, and I wondered about RFI filters being incorporated (but no, says the designer). The Superline does have a very wideband design, though, and herein lies the problem, which can be ameliorated but probably not cured (without a change of turntable).

However, having now heard heard what the SL can do, in my system and in an all top Naim system with Supercap etc., I'm not going to fanny about too long.

Back to the topic theme; maybe it's what you're used to; maybe 'pipe and slippers' is some people's bag or maybe you like your music hanging off a cliff-edge (as someone I know well does), but a little bit of p.r.a.t. goes a long way !

AMEN (All Music Eases Neuroses)

DSJR
08-10-2009, 19:56
The best thing for those who can afford it, is to take a week or three away from one's HiFi, enjoy life on holiday, chill, and then return to the system. Usually, it sounds amazing if you've got it sortof right.

If, when you return home and it sounds sh*t, but "gets better over the next few days as it warms up," I can guarantee that it really is sh*t and the owner's ears are adapting to the sound (Naim products that are properly set up internally only take an hour or two to sort themselves out 99% and anyone saying they take days or weeks to warm back up is kidding themselves IMO).

Spectral Morn
08-10-2009, 21:12
The best thing for those who can afford it, is to take a week or three away from one's HiFi, enjoy life on holiday, chill, and then return to the system. Usually, it sounds amazing if you've got it sortof right.

If, when you return home and it sounds sh*t, but "gets better over the next few days as it warms up," I can guarantee that it really is sh*t and the owner's ears are adapting to the sound (Naim products that are properly set up internally only take an hour or two to sort themselves out 99% and anyone saying they take days or weeks to warm back up is kidding themselves IMO).


:doh::doh::doh::doh::(


Yep I am deluded that I can hear warm up and run in. My system sounds great but gets much, much better... I must be kidding myself...my mind is playing tricks etc .... Sounds good after being away and just improves...but again I must be fooling myself...its the placebo effect. I am such a weak minded gullible person.

My entire audio life and I can't hear what I hear.... I know 100% what I hear, and have always been able to hear.

Dave if you want to believe what you just said go right ahead.... but you don't speak audio truth and experience for me and many many others, but YEP we are deluded...and fools.


D S D L

Beechwoods
08-10-2009, 21:21
I must admit that my own 'audio memory' is very short, and it takes near-time A/B sampling to have me convinced that any difference is real. It's difficult IMO to recall the detail of sound from an earlier experience. I suspect that the ability to viscerally recall sound from one time to another can be learnt, but that it's not common. Perhaps like 'perfect pitch'. I do envy people who have such abilities.

Marco
08-10-2009, 21:30
Hi Neil,

I think you've rather misread Dave's post. Try reading it again and see what happens before I explain how I've interpreted it :)

I kind of agree with the first part of his post and totally agree about Naim equipment.

I owned a Naim system for years and, once it's run-in from new, if it's switched off for a relatively short period of time, it only takes an hour or so to warm-up again. If it's been left switched off for many weeks, months or whatever, it takes about two days to warm-up again fully.

However, the bollocks that some of the 'Naimees' go on about when even if you switch something off for five minutes it then takes days, or even weeks, to warm up again fully is, quite frankly, patent nonsense! I know because I've done it.

I keep my ss gear (transport and DAC) switched on all the time, but not my valve-based Croft preamp and Copper amp. Those reach full potential from switch-on in about 20 minutes.

I do think in general that people are prone to exaggerate with warm-up times. 'Running-in' from new with equipment is however a different ball game altogether, and I've known some equipment take up to 2 MONTHS to fully come on song!!

Marco.

Spectral Morn
08-10-2009, 21:43
Hi Neil,

I think you've rather misread Dave's post. Try reading it again and see what happens before I explain how I've interpreted it :)

I kind of agree with the first part of his post and totally agree about Naim equipment.

I owned a Naim system for years and, once it's run-in from new, if it's switched off for a short period of time, it only takes an hour or so to warm-up again. If it's been left switched off for many weeks, months or whatever, it takes about two days to warm-up again fully.

However, the bollocks that some of the 'Naimees' go on about where even if you switch something off for five minutes it then takes days, or even weeks, to warm up again fully is, quite frankly, patent nonsense! I know because I've done it.

I keep my ss gear (transport and DAC) switched on all the time, but not my Croft preamp and Copper valve amp. Those reach full potential from switch-on in about 20 minutes.

I do think in general that people are prone to exaggerate with warm-up times. 'Running in' from new with equipment is a different ball game altogether and I've known some equipment take up to 2 MONTHS to fully come on song!!

Marco.


I agree about valve gear 20 mins to a hour usually does it. However I think we will have to disagree about warm up times. these vary with some kit needing longer than others. I have no experience of Naim, but Wadia CD players need about a month, my Moon Andromeda needs about a month too. Classic multi bit kit needs about a week, that includes the AMR CD77 I have (my Marantz CD94mk2,Marantz CD7 are the same) despite the fact it has valve outputs etc..it must be left in standby mode. My Bat VK31se pre needs about a week and my Chapter pre-power about 2 weeks.

I wish this was not the case as electricity bills would be smaller, but I can hear the improvements, wish I could not but there you go.

I agree with run in times from new it can be months, depending on use and just leaving it on does not run it in.

I think 5 minutes is a bit silly but longer will reduce the performance again I have heard this and wish I don't.

No I read DSJR's post as it was meant to be read. If it was qualified "in my experience I believe this to be so" fair enough, but its presented as an Audio fact...I take issue with that.

Edit...however my experience with the Reiymo transport and Dac yesterday, it sounds fantastic from switch on and gets better as it warms up (don't believe I have heard as far as it goes yet, but maybe I have..we shall see next time I have these in for a listen) I can't remember ever being so amazed by something from switch on so much. I am sure there is other kit out there which is the same. However I don't own any of it. Despite warm up issues I am very happy with the sound I get from various combinations of items I have. One particular item I had at home for awhile a few years ago was the Musical Fidelity KW500 amp. It sounded great from new and as it ran in/warmed up the sound went away from what I like...go figure.


Regards D S D L

Marco
08-10-2009, 21:53
However I think we will have to disagree about warm up times. these vary with some kit needing longer than others. I have no experience of Naim, but Wadia CD players need about a month, my Moon Andromeda needs about a month too. Classic multi bit kit needs about a week, that includes the AMR CD77 I have (my Marantz CD94mk2,Marantz CD7 are the same) despite the fact it has valve outputs etc..it must be left in standby mode. My Bat VK31se pre needs about a week and my Chapter pre-power about 2 weeks.


There's no disagreement there, mate. Your gear obviously behaves differently from mine, that's all :)

If my Sony transport and DAC have been switched off for any reason, say for an hour or so, they only take about 30 minutes to come back on song again after 'warming up'. However, they stay switched on all the time anyway.

What I'd love to know is why some kit (like yours) is so different in that respect - different capacitors used, perhaps? :confused:


One particular item I had at home for awhile a few years ago was the Musical Fidelity KW500 amp. It sounded great from new and as it ran in/warmed up the sound went away from what I like...go figure.


For me, when equipment sounds that way from new it's usually a bad sign. Almost all ss gear I've owned sounds a little bright when new, but as things run-in, the sound mellows and fills out more. If it sounds 'right' from brand new that often means it'll get duller and more 'phat' sounding as it runs in, which is precisely what you don't want!

It's not always like that, though. As usual, there are many variables.

Marco.

Spectral Morn
08-10-2009, 22:02
There's no disagreement there, mate. Your gear obviously behaves differently from mine, that's all :)

If my Sony transport and DAC have been switched off for any reason, say for an hour or so, they only take about 30 minutes to come back on song again after 'warming up'. However, they stay switched on all the time anyway.

What I'd love to know is why some kit (like yours) is so different in that respect - different capacitors used, perhaps? :confused:

Marco.

And that is the question I have asked many times, and it has been ignored or side stepped. Why design gear like this ? Its wasteful of energy (not that I am into the green climate con)and thus robs my pocket of cash that could go on other things. Frankly its a pain in the ass, but i like the sound of what i have so live with this issue.

Like you I do leave a lot of gear on. Maybe Mark Bartlet of Audio Com who modded your Sony gear could offer a reason why your Sony Kit behaves differently to a non modified DAS R1 Dac I had at home once a few years ago it to needed to be on for a few days to a week before it stopped improving in its sound.

Can anyone even venture a possible answer...and I am deluded wont cut it.


Regards D S D L

The Grand Wazoo
08-10-2009, 22:06
This thread has taken a slightly different turn because of some things I said to Mike about my experiences with my LFD MC1 phono stage. He had another LFD unit on a week long loan & thought it sounded awful.
I warned him that my own LFD takes about 2 weeks to come on song. This is true & I know that it's not becaause I gradually become accustomed to it..... it sounds shite when you switch it on from cold - thin, bland and weak with no bass (though the soundstage is excellent). It stays like that for a week. I know this because I've experimented with switching it on & not listening to it for varying amounts of time.
After a week it improves. After two weeks it stops improving.

It's not about justifying an expenditure because I had a perfectly good phono stage already. I've never experienced anything like this with any other component & if you'd described this to me before I heard it for myself I'd have thought you were kidding yourself too!

Spectral Morn
08-10-2009, 22:22
This thread has taken a slightly different turn because of some things I said to Mike about my experiences with my LFD MC1 phono stage. He had another LFD unit on a week long loan & thought it sounded awful.
I warned him that my own LFD takes about 2 weeks to come on song. This is true & I know that it's not becaause I gradually become accustomed to it..... it sounds shite when you switch it on from cold - thin, bland and weak with no bass (though the soundstage is excellent). It stays like that for a week. I know this because I've experimented with switching it on & not listening to it for varying amounts of time.
After a week it improves. After two weeks it stops improving.

It's not about justifying an expenditure because I had a perfectly good phono stage already. I've never experienced anything like this with any other component & if you'd described this to me before I heard it for myself I'd have thought you were kidding yourself too!

Hi Chris

I have heard this said about LFD though I have not heard it myself...sadly I have never heard any LFD.

I know what you mean about"until you hear it for yourself". It is annoying when others tell you you are deluding/kidding yourself and this warm up thing does not exist when you have heard it many times.


Regards D S D L

The Grand Wazoo
08-10-2009, 22:39
Hi Neil,
As you say, it's bleedin' inconvenient, but if a component is good, then it's good - warm up time or no warm up time.

I like my LFD - I don't use it at the moment, but that doesn't detract from it's abilities. Not to say that Mike's experiences aren't also valid in the context of his gear, in his room.

Barry
08-10-2009, 22:44
I must admit that my own 'audio memory' is very short, and it takes near-time A/B sampling to have me convinced that any difference is real. It's difficult IMO to recall the detail of sound from an earlier experience. I suspect that the ability to viscerally recall sound from one time to another can be learnt, but that it's not common. Perhaps like 'perfect pitch'. I do envy people who have such abilities.

I'm with you Nick, my audio memory is also short, especially for detail. The more obvious aspects of the performance of certain items I can remember, such as the phenomenal transient attack and presence displayed by Decca cartridges and the fact that my speakers (Quad 57 ELS) sound better if they are cold, whereas all cartridges sound better when warm. I can't say I notice much, if any, improvement in performance of solid state amplifiers on warming up, whereas I do with valve gear.

To return to the original thread concerning 'habituation', well I would think that applies to most people. Once they have reached their point of diminishing return (which, to touch upon a heated flurry of postings on another thread; the point of diminishing returns varies person to person) and are content with their system, further changes made can quite often appear to be no improvement at all.

My system would fall into the stereotypical description of 'pipe and slippers': Quad speakers with Quad electronics. I try to listen to as much live music as I can; usually classical at the Proms, jazz or folk. Certainly when listening to large orchestral forces, I think "Blimey, we've got a long way to go" and expect to be disappointed upon returning to my system. The disappointment doesn't last for long: less than 5 minutes, if that.

As I might have said in another post, if I make a change and feel I hear an improvement, I will leave things that way for about a week or two. Then I will revert to the original arrangement. If I hear a degredation, then my initial impression on hearing the 'improvement' was genuine. In many cases it is not. The ear is easily fooled by expectation.

Regards

Marco
08-10-2009, 22:57
As I might have said in another post, if I make a change and feel I hear an improvement, I will leave things that way for about a week or two. Then I will revert to the original arrangement. If I hear a degredation, then my initial impression on hearing the 'improvement' was genuine. In many cases it is not. The ear is easily fooled by expectation.


Spot-on, Barry! :)

The reason why most people either don't 'get' proper differences with changes, or they often latch onto the wrong thing, is because they don't do the swap back!!

Most people listen to something, and if it initially sounds 'better' they simply leave it at that, or at best do some short A/B testing to determine if they prefer the change. It's often the changes that initially sound most 'impressive' which are deemed as 'better'.

The problem is of course that it's often not until reverting to the original arrangement that what was initially considered as 'better' was not genuinely so, and in fact simply more 'different' than actually genuinely better.

Quite simply, the swap back is crucial in order to fully 'get' what any change has brought about.

Marco,

The Grand Wazoo
08-10-2009, 23:01
Certainly - you've got to go back - different is not better, it's just different - you need to check.

The Vinyl Adventure
08-10-2009, 23:07
I'm not really sure who I agree with here but I shall state the facts as I have experienced them

1. When I go on holiday I leave my hifi on (we have house sitters because of l the pets) when I come back I am never unhappy with how it sounds

2. When I unplugged my naim system when I moved it from one room to another and plugged it back in again it sounded a bit pants for about 2 hours

3. When I fisrt bought a cd5 I thought it sounded a bit wanky, a few days of solid listening I was pleased it sounded better, after the adition of a flat cap after about 4 weeks I was even more pleased. I then went through an extended period of realising I was listening to it much. Through this period I was less than happy when listening as it always sounded very shouty. This problem was solved when I sold it and bought my majik ds! Make of this what you will but I recon the first period was me telling my self it got better - habituation or self defence over the £700 I had spent? I'm not sure?

4. From new, my 7520 def sounded better after about a day

I personally think there is a possibility that there could be a veriety of run in times and warm up times for different kit. But I recon it is definatly possible that good kit can sound better over time due to habituation or whatever. But I recon bad kit (naim cd5) will always show it's true colours in time

The Grand Wazoo
08-10-2009, 23:44
Talking about warm up times for Naim gear - I used to have a CDI (from new) & it took about 3-4 hours to really sing (initial burn-in was about a week, not the 2 weeks I was led to expect) from cold after a spell switched off.

However, even though it was switched on all the time (except when we went away), during the winter I used to have real trouble with it. We lived in a very old house with useless heating & the little room the gear was in (could be described as the leg of an L-shaped room, I suppose) had 3 exterior walls.

The first CD of a session that I played would require maybe 20 or 30 presses of the play button (remote or chassis mounted buttons). Many CD's after that needed several pushes of the button. As for the sound, it needed at least an extra hour to begin to do it's stuff - even with valves burning away on the shelf below! I used to get home from work, & switch it all on, put a CD on repeat (eventually) & come back to it to listen properly after the evening meal.

I spoke to the folks at Naim several times about this & they blamed the puck - sent me a different one, but it did no good.

Spectral Morn
09-10-2009, 09:13
Talking about warm up times for Naim gear - I used to have a CDI (from new) & it took about 3-4 hours to really sing (initial burn-in was about a week, not the 2 weeks I was led to expect) from cold after a spell switched off.

However, even though it was switched on all the time (except when we went away), during the winter I used to have real trouble with it. We lived in a very old house with useless heating & the little room the gear was in (could be described as the leg of an L-shaped room, I suppose) had 3 exterior walls.

The first CD of a session that I played would require maybe 20 or 30 presses of the play button (remote or chassis mounted buttons). Many CD's after that needed several pushes of the button. As for the sound, it needed at least an extra hour to begin to do it's stuff - even with valves burning away on the shelf below! I used to get home from work, & switch it all on, put a CD on repeat (eventually) & come back to it to listen properly after the evening meal.

I spoke to the folks at Naim several times about this & they blamed the puck - sent me a different one, but it did no good.

I once had the misfortune of trying to use a room like that. I knew I had problems when I started to find CD covers and back covers wrinkled. I stopped using the room. It was to long and thin anyway.

Recent (1 year ago-back)Musical Fidelity CD players are like your Naim was, they need to be on for awhile or they won't read discs. Used to drive me mad when trying to do a dem. I always had them left on overnight to avoid this, but every so often you would get the walk in dem and then you might have the problem :doh::( Didn't look good when it would not play.


Regards D S D L

Barry
09-10-2009, 17:08
All this talk of weeks or months for the intial burn-in, doesn't speak well for the manufacturers. The initial burn in (which I do understand; capacitors have to form properly, active devices have to get past the 'infant mortality' part of the reliability curve etc.) ought to be done by the manufacturer before it is sold.

Frankly, if any item then requires a 'warm up' time of a couple of hours after switch on, then I think I would want to avoid using it. I'm not happy about leaving equipment permenantly switched on: more due to the potential fire hazard rather than wasting power (though this and the 'Green issues' ought not to be simply dismissed). The only items in my system that are constantly powered up, are my electrostatics (they only consume microamps of current), and when I used to use an Ortofon head amp, that too was left on as well.

Regards

Marco
09-10-2009, 17:34
Hi Barry,

I understand your concerns for the environment, and appreciate this, but I would think that any piece of properly designed and tested solid-state equipment which is liable to become a fire hazard if left switched on would be very rare, so I have no qualms in that respect about leaving my Sony transport and DAC powered up 24-7. Indeed it's been mostly constantly switched on for the last five years! ;)

I've always had the theory too that equipment lasts longer, and is less likely to fail, if it's subjected to the minimum amount of switch-on/offs in its lifetime as possible. Experience tells me that the electrical surge going through the circuit of equipment when it's switched on is what makes it most likely to fail, and thus when it's at its most vulnerable, rather like as is the case with a light bulb.

So, environmental issues aside, there's an argument to say that your gear (not valves, though, obviously) will last longer when always left powered up! And that way it's always ready to perform at its best, too.

Personally, and perhaps you'll disagree, I'd rather save the planet in other ways (and we do), and increase the lifespan of my ss equipment and also ensure that it's always sounding its best by leaving it switched on permanently. What matters after all, is your overall carbon footprint, which is based on so many different things. YMMV :)

Marco.

DSJR
09-10-2009, 19:48
No I read DSJR's post as it was meant to be read. If it was qualified "in my experience I believe this to be so" fair enough, but its presented as an Audio fact...I take issue with that.
Regards D S D L

No need to keep attacking me old chap. I have no ego left to bruise and ALL of my comments are as I find them *personally* and *in my experience.*

I do find *myself* that so called sound quality "diferences" from day to day can be due to a number of other factors unrelated to the equipment being played. I don't know about you, but my ears and personal wellbeing change by the hour at present (:D) and the system involves me differently accordingly. of course, those good people with a decent and stable life may not have these factors getting in the way of a good HiFi sound..

My CD player is based heavily on your Marantz CD94 and it takes around four to five hours to stabilise - I cannot hear any change from then on *personally.* The Dual seems to like an LP and a half before the sound fully "blossoms" and this is repeatable with many cartridges and systems it's been used with. The AVI products I've owned have needed but minutes to stabilise and the Croft-n-Crowns are the same. I sold the Bryston preamp I had because it needed twelve hours or so to fully sweeten.

I suppose I was having a little dig at some fanbois (NOT you Neil), who insist that their stereo takes weeks (not from new - from switch-on after a while left switched-off) to stabilise. if this really is the case, I still think there's room for design improvements, as something isn't very stable, or is being allowed to drift over time. Surely this could be the case and be something to researched into improving?

Please Neil, don't drive me away. Just accept that I'm a pragmatic who uses experience (limited or otherwise) to express a VIEWPOINT, not fact set in stone..

Ali Tait
09-10-2009, 20:18
Well, I think it's also fairly well accepted that the brain compensates for missing bass. The British loudspeaker industry used that to it's benefit for decades! It's also maybe one of the reasons why some folk think 300B's are the best thing since sliced bread - the mid-range is fantastic but everything else is a figment of your imagination!

An over-simplification, but you get the idea


Hi Chris,
I understand how you have come to this conclusion,but IMHO this is more down to the design of the amps you may have heard rather than the valve itself.I have had two 300b amps in the past (still have one!).The fact is, the 300b is quite a difficult valve to drive,from my (limited!) understanding.I have heard a 300b amp,built by someone who knows a great deal more then me about amps (not difficult!) that remains as one of the very best amps I've ever heard,and if I say so myself,I've heard some good'uns.Admittedly,it was using a pair of very rare 300a's,but the sound was sublime,and in my memory,there was no lack at the frequency extremes.

Ali Tait
09-10-2009, 20:24
The best thing for those who can afford it, is to take a week or three away from one's HiFi, enjoy life on holiday, chill, and then return to the system. Usually, it sounds amazing if you've got it sortof right.

If, when you return home and it sounds sh*t, but "gets better over the next few days as it warms up," I can guarantee that it really is sh*t and the owner's ears are adapting to the sound (Naim products that are properly set up internally only take an hour or two to sort themselves out 99% and anyone saying they take days or weeks to warm back up is kidding themselves IMO).


Exactly! (the first bit I mean!) I do this all the time,since my job takes me away from home on a regular basis.If I've been away more than a week or two,I've always forgotten how good the system sounds by the time I get back,and am gobsmacked all over again :) Absense makes the heart grow fonder....

Marco
09-10-2009, 20:28
Hi Ali,

Where've ya been, dude? :)

If Greg still has his WD300B amp, I suspect if Chris heard that it would dilute his opinion of the 300B somewhat... ;)

That's one of the best 300B amps I've heard and it was P/P too, if I remember.

As they say, it ain't what ya got - it's how ya do it!

Marco.

Labarum
09-10-2009, 20:33
Just moved into a flat. Spent last weekend with my son putting in a wired network and the server in the cupboard next to the lounge - nice big hole trough the wall with too many wires passing through to the TV and AV amp.

The 'server room' is now the warmest in the house - my wife thinks it's the clothes drying room. If I were to find seven valve amps to replace the AV amp I could reduce the drying time by a useful margin.

My son, however, is not keen on all the moisture being sucked through the tower PC and blown all over the CPU!

I will leave him to negotiate with his mother!!!

The Grand Wazoo
09-10-2009, 20:35
Hi Ali, Marco,
Actually, I've heard some very good home brew 300B amps and not at all like that. However, there are plenty more that just do not cut it. And as often as not they're touted as remakable pieces of gear - and so some of them are........within the area that they perform best.

The clue was in my last sentence!

Ali Tait
09-10-2009, 20:47
Hi Ali,

Where've ya been, dude? :)

If Greg still has his WD300B amp, I suspect if Chris heard that it would dilute his opinion of the 300B somewhat... ;)

That's one of the best 300B amps I've heard and it was P/P too, if I remember.

As they say, it ain't what ya got - it's how ya do it!

Marco.

I been working!! and away from home at that,a regular occurence with my job.Yes,the 300b amp I have is the same as Greg's except mine is a WAD one,while his is a clone,built with better components and trannies.I always liked how it sounded,which prompted me to buy mine! It needs a bit of work though-has a hum problem,maybe tired PS electrolytics.I'll get round to it if I ever get any free time.. :doh:

Spectral Morn
09-10-2009, 21:22
No need to keep attacking me old chap. I have no ego left to bruise and ALL of my comments are as I find them *personally* and *in my experience.*

I do find *myself* that so called sound quality "diferences" from day to day can be due to a number of other factors unrelated to the equipment being played. I don't know about you, but my ears and personal wellbeing change by the hour at present (:D) and the system involves me differently accordingly. of course, those good people with a decent and stable life may not have these factors getting in the way of a good HiFi sound..

My CD player is based heavily on your Marantz CD94 and it takes around four to five hours to stabilise - I cannot hear any change from then on *personally.* The Dual seems to like an LP and a half before the sound fully "blossoms" and this is repeatable with many cartridges and systems it's been used with. The AVI products I've owned have needed but minutes to stabilise and the Croft-n-Crowns are the same. I sold the Bryston preamp I had because it needed twelve hours or so to fully sweeten.

I suppose I was having a little dig at some fanbois (NOT you Neil), who insist that their stereo takes weeks (not from new - from switch-on after a while left switched-off) to stabilise. if this really is the case, I still think there's room for design improvements, as something isn't very stable, or is being allowed to drift over time. Surely this could be the case and be something to researched into improving?

Please Neil, don't drive me away. Just accept that I'm a pragmatic who uses experience (limited or otherwise) to express a VIEWPOINT, not fact set in stone..


Hi Dave

Firstly I am not trying to drive you away. I respect your views on and experience on many things. However quite often (and I would say this to anyone) you express yourself in away that would leave the reader to believe you are stating a fact and not an opinion. It is that and that alone which prompted my robust post... I will concede it was a bit less constructive than normal, but I find expressions of fact on a subjective topic such as audio to be frustrating. When they are diametrically different to mine, and that of many, many others...being dismissed in this way is very frustrating and is not helpful IMHO.

I agree with you that perhaps there is something odd in these audio designs that require them to be left on, or require weeks of warm up to sound their best. This as you say is a topic worth exploring and if opinions could be expressed as to why this might be so, there would be value in that. What would add more value would be if someone could tie those ideas to some measurements.

On the topic of mood effecting listening, I must say the only thing that ruins my listening, which is, and has always been consistent, is me being very tired. At that point I can't be bothered and I usually do something else or go to bed, if I am listening at night.

Anyway, while we don't always see eye to eye on everything, and I do find some of your posts a bit frustrating, rest assured I don't want you to go, so I am not trying to drive you away.

I appreciate the content of this post and how you have expressed yourself in it. You have made things clear and that has been helpful...though not all your posts are so, and this is where my problem has come from. Hope things can be okay from now on between us.

Regards D S D L

Joe
09-10-2009, 22:01
I can comfortably straddle the fence on this one. My solid-state stuff upstairs stays switched on, whilst my valve power amp (with the disliked-by-some 300Bs) is switched off when not in use.

Personally it sounds good from switch-on, and I don't run a CD or LP on repeat for an hour or so to get the valves properly heated up. Maybe it gets better over time but if it does, the improvement must very gradual and subtle.

Marco
09-10-2009, 22:03
Welcome back, muchacho!

Marco.

Joe
09-10-2009, 22:05
Hi! I've un-bookmarked YouTube, and put my sarcasm in a locked cupboard!

Marco
09-10-2009, 22:13
Hehehehe... Yes, I noticed 'you two' causing a stir on pfm ;)

Marco.