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Varun
28-09-2009, 06:23
Forum,

Fulfilling reproduction of bass slam and detail can not be achieved without a goodly output and hence volume has been my understanding which I do not believe digital science can overcome. The problem is "physical" production of sound energy which is analogue as is the movement of Marco's 15" Tannoys.

I was reminded of this when Marco said that most of his listening is done at low to modest levels! To act as devil's advocate Marco- won't you be pushing the Tannoys to far less than their optimum capability- I mean the best of them?

StanleyB
28-09-2009, 07:18
Fulfilling reproduction of bass slam and detail can not be achieved without a goodly output and hence volume has been my understanding which I do not believe digital science can overcome. The problem is "physical" production of sound energy which is analogue as is the movement of Marco's 15" Tannoys.

Junk science. It's a fairy story.

Varun
28-09-2009, 10:11
Good to know Stan that modern designs- do not require to shift volumes of air to create Sound Pressure Levels. Does that mean that a 10W SE will produce the same effect driving BBC LS3/5As- book shelf monitors?

I await the thoughts of Marco and other very experienced and learned listeners.

Mike Reed for instance who always is so quite but has very big soundig speakers and experience too.

There is a second aspect to the thread and that is the capability of valves Vs solid state to have the same effect- on SPLs and standing waves and so on?

I am enquiring- asking and not stating a fact.

StanleyB
28-09-2009, 10:56
What has the speaker ability got to do with whether the source is digital or analogue:scratch:? You are confusing yourself by thinking that the waveform from a digital to analogue converted frequency is in any way different is shape or amplitude compared to an analogue signal source. They are not. To think otherwise makes a mockery of audio technology.
A speaker reproduces what it is fed with, and from where. And that is the amp. It has nothing to do with digital or analogue. That's junk science.

anthonyTD
28-09-2009, 11:16
hi varun,
as have been stated a conventional speaker needs to be fed an analogue signal to work, hence the conversion from digital to analogue, as for power and the ability to move air sufficiently to feel bass, well this will depend on a few things, one being the power of the amplifier, and two the efficiency of the speakers,
if for example we are talking about marco's tannoys well they are probably in excess of 95db sensitive, and being a large cone ie; 15" they do not need huge excursions [movement] to produce low bass hence with this type of speaker it is posible to get good bass at relitively low [couple of watts] power
output. there are other factors to consider but i think this will suffice to help you understand a little better the relationship between amplifier and speaker.
regards,anthony,TD...

Varun
28-09-2009, 16:12
Thanks Anthony and apologies Stan for confusing the thread a bit.

Let me ask if I may- the cone excurtion-say in Marco's Tannoys could be easily driven by say a NAD 3020. I am afraid the design side is totally beyond me- take for example many of the modern speakers using several mid sized units (2 in my 803s) for instance and one for midrange-will result in a base response of not quite the capabilty of Marco's or B&W 801s but for certain room size- will be enough.

So the reason for my question-was that all the amps I have had so far have required a certain level of power to produce the bass impact-be it detail or thump-beyond which it simply gets louder-but below- and that was the point "suboptimal".

Now-why not make highly sensitive speakers-would that not solve many problems???

The digital bit was a bit "tongue in cheek" as everything is analogue-waveforms wise- unless I am told that all electromagnetic waves are essentially 0-I and nothing more.

Lastly this is for you Anthony-may sound too simple for an expert like you. Valves with so much power and yet their ability to drive bass cones- why is it different to say transistors?

StanleyB
28-09-2009, 16:35
Now-why not make highly sensitive speakers-would that not solve many problems???
Has been tried decades ago. The Cerwin Vega AT80 and AT100 are good examples.

hifi_dave
28-09-2009, 16:40
Way, way back in the old days, all speakers were efficient with large drivers in large boxes. These speakers only required a few watts to produce deep bass and realistic volume levels, so quality amps like the Quad II at 12 wpc and the Leak Stereo 20, Radford STA 15 etc, etc were more than man enough for the job and everyone was happy.:lol:

Then the small, followed by tiny bookshelf speakers appeared and bass, volume and scale went out the window. The mantra 'watts are cheap' became the norm and bigger and bigger, more powerfu, usually SS amps appeared and it all went pear shaped.:doh

So now we are at a stage where the 'normal' speaker is a squitty little thing with a mid-range unit masquerading as a bass unit and it's driven by a horrid squawky, high powered SS amp, all sounding like cr*p.:steam:

We need to get back to efficient speakers with large bass driver and simple, low powered amps to drive them. IMO

Marco
28-09-2009, 16:50
I agree, Dave. How about high power amps (in terms of valves) and high-efficiency big speakers, too? I rather like the effect of 30W pure Class A P/P into my 95db 15"-driver Tannoys, and wouldn't dream of settling for anything less in terms of watts! :eyebrows:

;)

Marco.

Marco
28-09-2009, 17:01
Hi Varun,


Lastly this is for you Anthony-may sound too simple for an expert like you. Valves with so much power and yet their ability to drive bass cones- why is it different to say transistors?


Much depends on the quality of the mains and particularly the output transformers, which is the reason why some valve amps 'run out of puff' at any sort of reasonable volume when attempting to deliver low bass notes, or even being able to successfully keep up with the rhythm and timing of the music. Unfortunately, genuinely high quality transformers cost mucho denaro, pushing the price up of commercially available valve amps to more than most people can afford.

My TD Copper amp uses very large bespoke hand-wound mains and output transformers and will comfortably drive almost any loudspeaker to pretty serious levels. In fact, it has far more driving and perceived loudness capability than the solid-state 200W ECS monoblocks (each with a 1500VA transformer) I used before it! Go figure ;)

Marco.

Varun
28-09-2009, 17:07
I was waiting to hear from you Marco. It seems in your Tannoys you have winner-but then the rest of us-have to turn the volume up.

Have you tried any organ music on the Tannoys. I was listening to JJ Cale "Really" last night. Very full blown bass guitar sound on a number of tracks-almost sounds like acoustic guitar but I doubt it.

Then there are other minor issues- how much of a slam? say if one were listeing to the 1st 2 tracks of Gaucho or one of the Mike Fleetwood's drum do's on Fleetwood Mac records-"Brown eyes" for instance (side 3- Tusk).

Varun
28-09-2009, 17:11
Our postings crossed path Marco. What is your take on the SE valves type?

hifi_dave
28-09-2009, 17:26
I agree, Dave. How about high power amps (in terms of valves) and high-efficiency big speakers, though? I rather like the effect of 30W pure Class A P/P into my 95db 15"-driver Tannoys, and wouldn't dream of settling for anything less in terms of watts! :eyebrows:

;)

Marco.

I've got nothing against high powered amps just so long as they are simple designs done well. In my experience with these things, usually big, expensive American jobbies, the low powered version usually sounds better than the top of the range model with far more components and complicated circuitry.

When you mention 30 wpc, that is hardly high powered by today's standards but I'd be perfectly happy using such an amp into efficient speakers. The speakers are the problem now, generally being small and difficult to drive or large and very difficult, if we're talking esoterica. Make them easy to drive and you can use a low powered, high quality, simple amp.

Keep it simple. keep it quality.

anthonyTD
28-09-2009, 17:28
hi varum,
of course high efficiency speakers have long been the ideal, it was said [cant remember by who] that once upon a time you could fill the albert hall with 10 watts of power! if this was so just imagine how efficient those speakers were back then, probably in excess of 100db! up untill good quality bi-polar power transistors became available [late 1960's early 1970's] speaker sensitivity of around the lower to mid 90's was the norm, excluding electrostatics of course.
then once transistors became widely used in power amplification i guess it was easier and cheaper to make high power amplifiers than it was to make good wide frequency' and efficient speaker drive units. and of course if you use a heavier,stronger cone material you can gain in the bass end too, ie the diffrence between monitor reds/golds and HPD, the HPD cone having been re-inforced to handle more power and bass.[making the cones heavier reduces sensitivity] further you can increase the gap between the speech coil and magnet assembly too if you have more power, this will also lower the sesitivity but will aid with cooling, and it also means that the clearance and tooling to make such speakers are not needed to be as acurate, hence assembly is quicker, so all in all another reason to blame transistors for the demise of sensitive speakers!:eyebrows: just kidding.
but seriously these are some of the reasons why the sensitivity of speaker drive units has dropped over the years, but thank goodness they are making a come back in some designs, in musical instrument amplification the sensitive speaker drive unit never realy went away, its still pretty normal to find on average mid to high 90's sensitivity in for eg; guitar amps.
high sensitivity speaker drive units react very quickly hence they can sound more imediate and agile in the mid to high frequency domain, but because the cones are quite thin' usualy made from paper pulp they can flex to easy hence bass response can be a bit wooly and distorted at times if driven too hard.
hope this helps.
regards,anthony,TD...

Varun
28-09-2009, 17:47
Many thanks Anthony,

That makes a lot of sense. I sincerely hope someone starts making high sensitivity speakers. I do not keep up with what is going on but the cheaper line of Scandinavian speakers, Jamo, I was told had high sensitivity. I suppose coupled with transistors such speakers will sound horrible and so never stand a chance of building a good reputation-Cudos-sale value!

DSJR
28-09-2009, 18:02
Marco's Tannoys, especially with the original drive-units and large Klipsch corner-horns etc. can be "driven" fairly loudly from a portable transistor radio if you really wanted to do it. But there is always a tradeoff between absolute sensitivity for a given driver size and the bass extension available given a particular cabinet size.

There are articles published online (and a particular Tannoy one although I can't remember quite where) that show how a given driver works - the bass rolloff is basically fixed and the *extension* of bass is governed by the sensitivity - the more sensitive, the less bass extension as I understand it.

Staying with 15" Tannoy drivers for a minute longer. The old 1960's drivers which Marco inherited with his speakers didn't actually have much very deep bass at all, the extension was to around 37Hz or so and plummeting below this frequency. The Lockwood major cabs may have helped a bit though. They were, however, superbly efficient and could be easily driven from the 15 - 25W amps then regarded as extremely powerful. The slightly later Monitor Gold drivers (pre-HPD) traded a little sensitivity as driving amps increased hugely in power output but the positive benefit was a little more bass extension - 3db less efficient (needing double the power) and around 3-5Hz more extension. The HPD's went even further, the heavier "girdacoustic" cones, softer foam suspension and even more power handling completely changing the quality of bass reproduction, especially from the shallower smaller cabs (Berkeleys may be big today, but in 1975 they were large(ish). The HPD's by comparison with the earlier versions do tend to waffle their over-weight cones about on their frail foam surrounds, but the 1970's tranny amps had better damping to *sort of* make up for this.


Smaller speakers, to have any chance at all, either have to be properly designed active models (yes, ADM9.1's or the smaller active ATC and PMC models), hopefully well designed far eastern sourced models (I'm intrigued by that active Behringer "Truth" model selling all in for around £300). Small passives such as those by KEF, B&W and Monitor Audio either have boom masquerading as bass, or no bass at all - the B&W CM1's only sounded any good on midrange instruments...


One final thing and i promise to shut-up! The "percussive" morning I had today showed me that the initial "kick" of a drum, must have a very low frequency content - it can't just be the higher frequencies giving that "push" to the impact - why didn't I go to Uni and study Acoustics??

Oh, and Varun - the better not-too-big speakers such as the BBC inspired ones designed for natural reproduction (rather than "HiFi") can quite readily be played at lower volume levels with no important losses at all. I remember a dem of the interesting Zu Druid's. Great when the wick went up, but at volume levels the Tannoy Turnberry coped beautifully at, the Druid fell apart, sounding shrunken and, well, "small!"

anthonyTD
28-09-2009, 18:06
Many thanks Anthony,

That makes a lot of sense. I sincerely hope someone starts making high sensitivity speakers. I do not keep up with what is going on but the cheaper line of Scandinavian speakers, Jamo, I was told had high sensitivity. I suppose coupled with transistors such speakers will sound horrible and so never stand a chance of building a good reputation-Cudos-sale value!
hi varun,
your welcome, of course there are many more important aspects of speaker design to take into acount and it would take pages to go into detail, but i think what i have written above covers some of the main important aspects concerning drive unit sensitivity and its relation to power amplifier output.
regards,anthony,TD...

Marco
28-09-2009, 18:24
Hi Dave,


When you mention 30 wpc, that is hardly high powered by today's standards...


I was talking about in reference to valve amps. 30 W.P.C is pretty powerful, especially when it's (mostly) all in Class A! ;)

What I was getting at was that I prefer 30 'high quality watts' into large efficient speakers more than, say, a comparable 10 or 15 watts. As long as the amplifier and speaker design is of the requisite quality, then for me the more watts (within reason) the merrier - especially if you desire the ability to play music at 'realistic' levels!


Keep it simple. keep it quality.


I couldn't agree more. Overly complicated circuits in equipment (often using unnecessarily expensive components to command badge desirability) are at the heart of what's wrong with many under-performing so-called 'high-end' amplifiers, both valve and ss!


What is your take on the SE valves type?


Hi Varun,

Some SET amps can be extraordinarily good, particularly when playing material designed to optimise/compliment their sonic abilities, and partnered with speakers which do the same. Generally, SET amps possess a 'sweetness' and subtlety in the midrange and high frequencies that escapes most P/P designs.

However, in my experience, the best P/P designs can almost match them in that area and also provide more headroom 'drive' and 'grunt', which gives them the edge when playing rock and dance music at 'serious levels'. It really boils down to matching your chosen valve amp with the contents of your music collection and your chosen speakers. Good P/P amps, in my experience, offer more flexibility in that area.

I could imagine though that for some people who mainly listen to the likes of female vocalists, acoustic-based music, jazz and light classical finding the beguiling nature of SET amps an absolute must, especially if their ears have become attuned to the (to them) unmistakable sonic signature of P/P designs.

For me, I find that the combination of large, quality high-efficiency speakers, coupled with a reasonably powerful P/P amp, offers the best set of compromises (that's the key word here, incidentally) for my very wide taste in music. However, you simply have to suck it and see! :)

Marco.

Marco
28-09-2009, 18:48
Hi Dave (DSJR),


The old 1960's drivers which Marco inherited with his speakers didn't actually have much very deep bass at all, the extension was to around 37Hz or so and plummeting below this frequency. The Lockwood major cabs may have helped a bit though.


They could well have done (along with the new crossovers) because my 15" Monitor Golds don't struggle with deep bass in any way I can detect (in fact, they have enough low frequency punch to pin you firmly to the wall!) I have quite a few recordings which push the boundaries in that area... ;)

I certainly wouldn't question the measurements, though. However, genuine scale has always been much more important to me than actual bass extension. There are probably quite a few large floor-standing designs on the market which go measurably much lower than my Tannoys, but yet don't deliver anything like the sheer 'physicality' and scale that they're capable of. That's where the size and design (particularly baffle width) of the partnering cabinets comes in!

Marco.

Varun
28-09-2009, 19:04
Expectations guided by dealers and reviewers and then experience.

Many thanks Anthony, Marco and Dave (1&2). Where does a speaker like Isobarik fit in the scheme of things? it was big and at some stage active as well was it not.

Then we have very tall slender designs costing huge sums-Dynaudio make one such speaker.

And finally the thin-static speakers. There seems to be a strong following for those on the forum. Would you rather have a large enclosure for the woofer and rest done by other bits. SD Acoustics were a bit like that.

hifi_dave
28-09-2009, 19:35
Now you're talking about difficult to drive speakers with (usually) limited bass extension. That is apart from the original SD1 which was fairly easy to drive.

As for the Isobarik, I really couldn't see the attraction at all.

anthonyTD
28-09-2009, 19:39
hi varun,
there have been many designs over the years and most with a particular goal in mind to overcome the immense complications involved in good speaker design. as has already been observed it is esential for any drive unit [if it is going to have a chance of being able to react to very fast transients] to be as light and rigid as posible, therefore speaker drive units are usually split up into dedicated frequency bands, ie, bass, mid, and treble, this allows the designer a bit more scope in designing each drive unit to suit its purpose ie; the desired frequency range for that driver. this is difficult enough, but then you have to try and intergrate all the drivers together as seemlessly as posible, usually complicated cross-over networks are needed for this, adding their own problems to the equation, ie; phase diffrences, and power consumption!
A...

Cotlake
28-09-2009, 19:51
Some SET amps can be extraordinarily good, particularly when playing material designed to optimise/compliment their sonic abilities and partnered with speakers which do the same. Generally, SET amps possess a 'sweetness' and subtlety in the midrange and high frequencies that escapes most P/P designs.

However, in my experience, the best P/P designs can almost match them in that area and also provide more headroom 'drive' and 'grunt', which gives them the edge when playing rock and dance music at 'serious levels'. It really boils down to matching your chosen valve amp with the contents of your music collection and your chosen speakers. Good P/P amps, in my experience, offer more flexibility in that area.

I could imagine though that for some people who mainly listen to the likes of female vocalists, acoustic-based music, jazz and light classical finding the beguiling nature of SET amps an absolute must, especially if their ears have become attuned to the (to them) unmistakable sonic signature of P/P designs.

For me, I find that the combination of large, quality high-efficiency speakers, coupled with a reasonably powerful P/P amp, offers the best set of compromises (that's the key word here, incidentally) for my very wide taste in music. However, you simply have to suck it and see! :)

Marco.

Ah Marco, ho ho, at last we have something we are in agreement over :)

You are absolutely right. Everything is a compromise and we as the users need to find the best balance for our needs. I need a system that will reasonably produce everything I throw at it. I'm not prepared to compromise on my options for music. We both accept (for us) that valves are the way to go for amplification and although we both like the sweetness a SE (single ended) design can produce, the'll never do serious dance music regardless of the speaker's sensitivity. Of course, some SE's will do a lot such as high output transmitter valves like 211 and GM70 and if you ever get the chance to listen to 212's which are valves approximately a meter long, you'll realise that they are the ultimate SE audio valve and a completely different listening experience with serious excitement. Unfortunately I can't find a photo but some of the WD and AT crew may have one worth publishing. PP (push pull) designs however will acheive a very reasonable standard, so you have to sacrifice a bit of mid-range sweetness to get the best of all worlds. One of my main criticisms of amplifiers we hear at events like Owston is the inability to play all types of music. Having said that, Steve can do remarkable things with 2 watts into highly sensitive baffle speakers. If I had the domestic option, I'd also go that way but until I can afford a home with a dedicated listening room, it'll have to remain an asperation.

Regards,

Greg

DSJR
28-09-2009, 19:51
The Isobarik was heavily based at first on the KEF Concerto, which sounded good still ten years ago when I last heard some. Early 'Briks with chipboard cabs ONLY worked actively driven (with either bolt-up Naim 250's or 135's). The post 1983 MDF boxed ones dramatically improved the passive versions and slightly refined the active varient.

The mid-eighties saw KEF terminally changing the midrange driver for the worse and 'Briks, Kans and LS3/5A's were all ruined by these safety changes. The last 'briks had a flatter response, but high Q resonances in the boxes ruined any chance of low-colouration ideals...

As for the Isobarik bass loading, I don't know if anyone ever did any definitive research into the supposed benefits of this design. You only ever saw the output of ONE bass driver, as the other was sealed behind the front one. The moving mass (two driver diaphragms with a volume of air moving back and forth with the bass units) sort of cancelled out as far as I could see. Perhaps a properly designed single bass driver optimised specifically for the cabinet volume would have been at least as good.....

The more I read and post here, the more i reckon this site should be called "The Art of VINTAGE Sound forum" :gig:


In the meantime, my M3D/N21 has just surprised me all over again :D

Marco
28-09-2009, 19:55
As for the Isobarik, I really couldn't see the attraction at all.


In my experience, they can be quite fun in the right system (read as active Linn or Naim)! - As long as any notion of accuracy isn't at the top of your priorities.

Marco.

P.S Greg, nice one :)

DSJR
28-09-2009, 19:58
hi varun,
there have been many designs over the years and most with a particular goal in mind to overcome the immense complications involved in good speaker design. as has already been observed it is esential for any drive unit [if it is going to have a chance of being able to react to very fast transients] to be as light and rigid as posible, therefore speaker drive units are usually split up into dedicated frequency bands, ie, bass, mid, and treble, this allows the designer a bit more scope in designing each drive unit to suit its purpose ie; the desired frequency range for that driver. this is difficult enough, but then you have to try and intergrate all the drivers together as seemlessly as posible, usually complicated cross-over networks are needed for this, adding their own problems to the equation, ie; phase diffrences, and power consumption!
A...

Are you sure you're not schilling for AVI Anthony? When Ash tried to say the same things, he was hounded out of here and elsewhere.

You've just pleaded the case for decent active speakers which remove many of the design difficulties at a stroke. Of course, Ash's way of dealing with selling speakers is to make good quality small ones which real-world clients buy. Here, we'd have small volume selling huge active three ways, like PMC BB5's but valve, rather than Bryston, driven. Now *that* would be a REAL Tannoy basher with bass to flatten you to the wall....................

anthonyTD
28-09-2009, 20:05
Are you sure you're not schilling for AVI Anthony? When Ash tried to say the same things, he was hounded out of here and elsewhere.

You've just pleaded the case for decent active speakers which remove many of the design difficulties at a stroke. Of course, Ash's way of dealing with selling speakers is to make good quality small ones which real-world clients buy. Here, we'd have small volume selling huge active three ways, like PMC BB5's but valve, rather than Bryston, driven. Now *that* would be a REAL Tannoy basher with bass to flatten you to the wall....................
:lol:
seriously dave i think you will find that the people who bashed [as you put it] Ash's speakers didnt do it for their concept, they did so because of their sonic performance, now i never got the chance to hear them in person but i have spoken with a few that have' and all said the same, they werent convincing enough to warrant the spiel that proceded them.
A...

Marco
28-09-2009, 20:12
Of course, Ash's way of dealing with selling speakers is to make good quality small ones which real-world clients buy...


ROFL! :lol:

Ashley's way of "dealing with selling speakers" is to peddle half-truths and blatant lies, infecting any forums that will have him in the process with his blinkered dogma and quite incredible arrogance!

For "real-world clients", read as: the (relatively) undiscerning general public and those who are unfortunately governed by lack of space and/or WAF... For anyone else, ADM9s come strictly under the category of 'toytown'.

Dave, you knows I lurves ya, but you really are becoming the most ridiculous AVI fanboy imaginable for reasons best known to yourself (leaving aside of course the fact that Ashley is your pal) ;)

Don't expect anyone here to buy that spiel, though!!

Marco.

Steve Toy
28-09-2009, 21:57
I'm sure Dave is no AVI/Ashley fanboy. His post above kinda touches at a viable alternative that may yet suit AOS readers.

Marco
28-09-2009, 22:31
Oh don't worry, it's a (now) long-standing joke between Dave and me :eyebrows:

Valve-driven active PMCs (or suchlike) would certainly be very interesting... However, I'm completely smitten by the musical presentation of top-notch vinyl, valves 'n' horns (and large horn-driven DC drivers like Tannoys), so I doubt the above PMCs, even with their likely considerable charms, would tempt me...

One of the best speakers I've ever heard (experienced at the Whittlebury audio show at the weekend) that I could easily live with instead of my Tannoys are the HL1s from Aspara Acoustics - check these bad boys out:

http://www.asparaacoustics.co.uk/hl1_concept.php

Now *that* is what I call loudspeakers... Feck yer toytown ADM9s (and other puny offerings of their ilk)!!!

On the end of Guy Sergeant's SP10/SMEV/Audio-Note Io/AN SUT/Puresound P10 valve MM phono stage/Puresound L300 line-level valve preamp and (tweaked) A30 valve amp (used as a power amp), the sound was simply STUNNING and undoubtedly one of the best sounds I've heard at a hi-fi show - period! Shocking realism doesn't even begin to describe it...

More on that on the audio show thread tomorrow ;)

Marco.

alfie2902
29-09-2009, 02:49
Leave my 2nd systems toytown speakers alone you swines :ner: ;)

Varun
29-09-2009, 06:43
hi varun,
there have been many designs over the years ....usually complicated cross-over networks are needed for this, adding their own problems to the equation, ie; phase diffrences, and power consumption!
A...

Thanks Anthony again,

Although I know the bare minimum of these things- the detail of design and construction is beyond me. Then we have the question of speaker cables and so on.

In an ideal world then - the ideal speaker would be a single unit with no cross over? Right! This Indian chap who is not an electronic engineer has done just that. He makes SETs and a kind of transmission line speaker with high sensitivity. They are physically large but sounded good in my brief listening to CDs in his own lounge in Delhi. Then he makes his own cables all copper and cheap.

Marco
29-09-2009, 07:40
Leave my 2nd systems toytown speakers alone you swines...


Hey Alfie, howz it hangin' mate?

The fact that they're performing '2nd system' duties says it all! :eyebrows:

;)

Marco.

pure sound
29-09-2009, 08:24
One of the best speakers I've ever heard (experienced at the Whittlebury audio show at the weekend) that I could easily live with instead of my Tannoys are the HL1s from Aspara Acoustics - check these bad boys out:

http://www.asparaacoustics.co.uk/hl1_concept.php


Marco.

Thanks Marco. It was actually the 2A3 amp driving those speakers but probably only using 1 or 2 Watts to do it in what was really too large a room. (about 18m x 13m x 4m high). There were some issues with echoey reverberation but it would not have been possible to 'treat' a room that size the night before the show!

Marco
29-09-2009, 08:52
Cheers for the info, Guy. I tried to find the power amp listed on your website, but couldn't. Was it the one that looked like an A30, or was that actually an (unused) A30, and the 2A3 was a non-Puresound product that belonged to you personally?

Honestly, as you know I'm not easily impressed, but the sound the Aspara guys and you produced in that room, "echoey reverberation" aside, transcended anything I've ever heard before at a hi-fi show. That was as near as damn it live music you had going on in there! :youtheman:

Furthermore, let me tell you that your SP10 was undoubtedly sounding the best that I've ever heard it - in fact, it was the best SP10 I've heard, period! Playing the same records at home on my modded SL-1210 just wasn't quite the same; in fact in some ways it sounded almost broken in comparison, which is the first time I've felt that way after hearing an SP10. Normally there isn't much in it.

I presume that most of this was down to your new cartridge? I suspect too that quite a bit of work has been done synergising your AN SUT with the L300, as everything just gelled together so effortlessly it was breathtaking - and truly goose bump-inducing when listening to music... Well done! :)

Marco.

Varun
29-09-2009, 09:18
Hi Marco,

a bit lost on the details- of the cartridge and phono stage etc. Are they 'put' together items or well known type. I am talking of the 'pure sound' audition you found so impressive.

pure sound
29-09-2009, 09:26
We had an A30 (with Border Patrol PSU) there but the 2A3 amp (see pic below) gives a better result particularly with sensitive speakers like the Aspara's.

http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh107/pure_sound/2A3subdued.jpg

The speakers definitely demonstrate the point that efficiently coupling the cone movement to the air in the room via a horn can give a much less forced & much more natural presentation of dynamics at all levels and (for me anyway) that approach is preferable to using long throw drivers and necessarily complex high powered amplifiers to achieve the same effect. Ideally you want your speaker diaphragms moving as little as possible and carefully implemented horn loading helps you to achieve the desired spl's with less stress on the drivers and amplification.

http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh107/pure_sound/aspara.jpg

re the TT. That cartridge (Audio Note UK Io Gold) is a couple of years old now but it and the associated matching transformer (Audio Note Japan ANS6) would have been responsible for getting so much from the record. I tend to regard the deck and arm as being a pretty inert & characterless platform that simply allows the cartridge to do its work properly.
It was being used into the P10 phono stage and then into the L300 which is just a line stage.

Marco
29-09-2009, 09:33
Hi Varun,

Best ask Guy about that, as I don't have the specific details.

All I know is that it's a high-end AudioNote Io MC cartridge of some description with matching MC step-up transformer, which then goes into the Puresound P10 MM valve phono stage and the new Puresound L300 valve line-level preamp, which on first listen appears to be every bit as good as my modified Croft and Steve Toy's TD grounded grid valve preamp, which are two of the best preamps I've heard.

I shouldn't really go on about it anymore, but trust me, that system (and that's the key word here) was special with a capital 'S'.

Marco.

{Edit}: Nice pictures, Guy, and thanks for the clarification. I wasn't aware of the 2A3 belonging in your product range. I remember the set-up only too well! Btw, I'll probably use that pic later when posting my thoughts on the Whittlebury show thread :)

Varun
29-09-2009, 09:51
Thanks Marco,

I looked up pure sound website and realized what those model abbreviations meant.

Fully trust your judgement Marco with your experience. I was also looking at the horn loaded speakers web site. 100db sensitivtiy is impressive. Would you then swop the Tannoys for the new horns?

Marco
29-09-2009, 09:52
Guy,

One observation I'd make is why did you decide to make the L-300 line-level only, as opposed to, say, incorporating the P10 MM phono stage inside it and connecting your SUT directly to that instead of the signal going through another interface/box and the extra associated cables necessary...

What was your thinking there? :)

Marco.

Varun
29-09-2009, 09:52
by the way the AOS clock is 1 hour out.

pure sound
29-09-2009, 10:06
Guy,

One observation I'd make is why did you decide to make the L-300 line-level only, as opposed to, say, incorporating the P10 MM phono stage inside it and connecting your SUT directly to that instead of the signal going through another interface/box and the extra associated cables necessary...

What was your thinking there? :)

Marco.


There are many people now who (perhaps unwisely!) only use line level sources hence the need for what will be a couple of line stage pre's. Those customers don't want to buy a pre-amp with a phono stage they'll never use. It's not inconceivable that a full facility pre could be put in the L300 box but there are also people who want a higher grade 'standalone' phono stage with perhaps LCR Eq and that definitely wouldn't fit in there.

I've been disappointed by many of the passive attenuators I've tried, either the resistive or transformer coupled (TVC) variety and wanted to show that an active stage could still do things that such passive pre's couldn't.
The L300 was supposed to be launched after the smaller L10 but that hasn't been the way its turned out.

Marco
29-09-2009, 10:21
Hi Varun,


Fully trust your judgement Marco with your experience. I was also looking at the horn loaded speakers web site. 100db sensitivtiy is impressive. Would you then swop the Tannoys for the new horns?


Well, let's say it would be a very interesting comparison! Actually, they sound quite similar, although the Tannoys with 15" drivers (as opposed to the 12" units of the Asparas) have more scale and impact through the bass region, particularly in the larger Lockwood cabinets. The Monitor Gold dual-concentric drivers, to my ears, also sound more phase coherent, making for an overall better integrated sound........

*However* in terms of vocal inflection, dynamic contrast and sheer dynamic impact through the midrange, which enables voices and instruments to be conveyed with real 'drama' and also (rather shocking) realism, so that one can almost reach out and touch them, the Asparas win hands-down.

Their huge horn-driven midrange/tweeters simply reveal more musical information in that area than the (more subtly horn-driven) Tannoys, albeit they exhibit a little more horn coloration too in the process. The beauty though is that it's a form of coloration which seemingly is natural to real (read as live) music, and largely benign to the ears, therefore after a little acclimatisation and adjustment I suspect one wouldn't really notice it.

As with all speakers of their nature, the Asparas are ruthlessly revealing of source and control components upstream. Therefore, one would have to partner them with the very best equipment and ancillaries - preferably I suspect, a top-notch vinyl front end (such as Guy's superb SP10), as the sonic 'nasties' of most CDPs and some digital recordings would be showcased in all their glory.

At £7k a pair, the Asparas are not exactly cheap, but IMO judged in real-world applications, providing one has the equipment to optimise their performance, they represent a veritable bargain - especially when considering what is often paid for loudspeakers in the upper echelons of the high-end market. For example, I heard a pair of 'entry level' Magico speakers in the Absolute Sounds room at the weekend which were I think around the same price (or perhaps more expensive) than the Asparas and they weren't in the same planet, sonically! ;)

Marco.

alfie2902
29-09-2009, 17:06
Hey Alfie, howz it hangin' mate?

The fact that they're performing '2nd system' duties says it all! :eyebrows:

;)

Marco.


Hi Marco,

I'm good mate thanks!

The depressing thing is though Marco, when I've had various people visit to drop off or pick up gear, they've always ended up more impressed by the ADM9's than the main set up :confused: ! Well after they've got over just how good my old "rubber band" deck sounds! :eyebrows:

Varun
29-09-2009, 17:25
You are talking about the 12" squat box model I suppose Marco. The one thing I do not know about horn loaded speakers is 'how tolerant they are of room acoustics, positioning etc. 7000 quid is still a lot of money for most people. The question always arises- is it worth the difference? I am talking about bass performance- sticking to the thread.

How much bass- how much slam and defintion and above all who is to decided what is right? The man with rustling notes in the pocket I suppose.

What I mean is "does the difference really matter" accepting the fact that what ever one does it will never approach the live sound and that mind has the unequalled ability to 'fill in the blanks' especially when it comes to bass for some reason.

Marco
29-09-2009, 18:29
Hi Alfie,


I'm good mate thanks!


Nice one :)


The depressing thing is though Marco, when I've had various people visit to drop off or pick up gear, they've always ended up more impressed by the ADM9's than the main set up !


Different strokes for different folks, I guess. I haven't heard your main set-up so have no reference point from which to judge. Also, people are impressed by different things. Perhaps it was the compactness and 'clever all-in-one solution' of the ADM9s they were impressed with more than how they actually sounded? No matter, though :smoking:

I think it's worth pointing out that I'm not anti-ADM9s; merely anti what Ashley James of AVI (and his shills) writes on forums, for a number of very good reasons!


Well after they've got over just how good my old "rubber band" deck sounds!

Well that's understandable. I like the way you've fettled your Systemdek, and of course you're using a very good cartridge, tonearm, and errm, everything else too! ;)

Marco.

Marco
29-09-2009, 19:08
Hi Varun,


The one thing I do not know about horn loaded speakers is 'how tolerant they are of room acoustics, positioning etc. 7000 quid is still a lot of money for most people. The question always arises- is it worth the difference? I am talking about bass performance- sticking to the thread.


I wouldn't say the most impressive aspect of the Asparas was their bass performance - far from it. They are certainly very good in that respect (although not as good as the Tannoys).

However, their particular, very considerable, talents lie further up the frequency range. Most importantly though, it's about how their overall presentation of music is just so seamless and therefore utterly realistic and believable. Unquestionably for me, when in their 'zone', the Asparas are a truly magical listen. What they do well is quite frankly rare at any price.


What I mean is "does the difference really matter" accepting the fact that what ever one does it will never approach the live sound and that mind has the unequalled ability to 'fill in the blanks' especially when it comes to bass for some reason.

I agree to an extent, but there's no doubt in my mind that big speakers (done well), particularly valve-driven horn-loaded ones, get you much closer than anything else, so for that reason, I'd say yes it does matter - a lot.

Marco.

smithy
29-09-2009, 19:44
Have got the components just need to get it together.Just got some Oris 150 horns to go with my Focal Audiom 7K2s coupled with some 15" Audiom bass units in some Onkens should provide an interesting experience.

DSJR
29-09-2009, 20:58
ROFL! :lol:

Ashley's way of "dealing with selling speakers" is to peddle half-truths and blatant lies, infecting any forums that will have him in the process with his blinkered dogma and quite incredible arrogance!

For "real-world clients", read as: the (relatively) undiscerning general public and those who are unfortunately governed by lack of space and/or WAF... For anyone else, ADM9s come strictly under the category of 'toytown'.

Dave, you knows I lurves ya, but you really are becoming the most ridiculous AVI fanboy imaginable for reasons best known to yourself (leaving aside of course the fact that Ashley is your pal) ;)

Don't expect anyone here to buy that spiel, though!!

Marco.

One day, i'd like you to have a quiet chat with Martin Grindrod, who has designed some good things for other people as well over the years. He will be able to explain what his designs are all about and I PROMISE you that he's nothing like his louder half in the business AT ALL!!!!! ;)

I'll say no more.

Marco
29-09-2009, 22:31
That would be great, Dave. Martin Grindrod is a different ball-game. It's just a pity he's not the 'front man' instead of Ashley the blinkered shill king! ;)

Marco.

Steve Toy
29-09-2009, 22:41
Indeed, Martin Grindrod's account here is still open, unlike Ashleys. Below is his one-and-only post:

http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?p=4234#post4234

Marco
29-09-2009, 22:58
Mmm... Thing is, was that really Martin, or jcbrum with one of his many pseudonyms, taking the piss?

I have my suspicions! Remember when and in what context that post took place ;)

Marco.

Steve Toy
30-09-2009, 00:04
Martin joined at the same time as Ashley, if you recall. At that stage I don't think JCBrum had worked up enough of a motive to create sleeper accounts although someone, more likely Ashley, possibly accessed that account.

Varun
30-09-2009, 06:06
Thanks Marco about your critical analysis of Tannoys vs Asparas.

I after a little bit of trial realized that part of what I am saying (the title of the thread) is an 'artifice' created by the room acoustics. Let me explain.

Marco-you have taken great deal of trouble to provide good base support for your speakers. I am not sure whether that equates wirh 'isolation' but this is exactly what has happened to my system or so it seems.

I am renting a Bangalow in L'pool which has a laminate floor. Moving from a concrerte floor- I realied that the sound changed dramatically and lost much of bass. In order to prevent damage to the floor- I tried the Atcama spike cups- no good so decided to place the speakers on beech bread boards. They have thin sorbothane discs underneath to isolate them. A big improvement in sound.

What it has done is to isolate the speakers, especially the bass part. Increasing the volume has no effect, the bass is taut.

In essence I suppose if the volume increase causes the bass to augment then that must mean- I am hypothesizing-that the speaker is getting a 'reinforement' from the floor. In other words- spikes may not be enough to isolate the speakers from such a boost from a solid- concrete floor?

John
30-09-2009, 06:22
I have only heard a few horn drivers including Avantegarde Trios compact being put through it paces by a RAven AC The presentation was quite dark and while the speed of them was awesome they certainly had colour to them that was not for me

Varun
30-09-2009, 06:36
John,

You were talking about speaker positioning. My speakers in the present circumstances are 20" from the back -glass paned wall and 20" from the side walls. The room is small- although 20'x13' at the wider end where the TT and amps are sited-only 10.5' at the speaker end. There isn't enough space for the sound to 'breath' in order for a sound stage and depth etc to be created, It sounds constrained-boxed in. Not as good as my previous room which was the listening room and office. Compromises after compromises.

twelvebears
30-09-2009, 07:16
Briefly flitting back to the original thread title, and while my babies aren't quite as well endowed as Marco's (a mere 10" ;)), I definately notice the 'weight' of the sound they produce even at the relatively low volumes I tend to be forced to listen at *most* of the time (Victorian terrace house) in order to be a nice neighbour.

I love the fact that they manage to produce the kind of bass you can feel even when they aren't cranked up.

Love the look of those Aspara Acoustics HL1s. If only I have the space and the money!

John
30-09-2009, 07:45
Hi Varum
My room is smaller 4m by 3m and yet I can get good bass Perhaps some kind of room correction on the bass might help
Can you show us a picture of your room and equipment I am sure some people here will be able to help

Varun
30-09-2009, 18:02
Hi John,

The point I was making was that the sound has changed for the better overall and perhaps I should have done that when the speakers stood with the spikes piercing through the carpet.

There are obvious room acoustics problems (every where) which can not be changed. The bass after my upgrade to better cables is significantly improved-but it is the drum kit sound I was talking of, a sound we are so used to hearing in rock/pop records. The big bass drum crashes in the classical orchestral recordings are better than I have ever heard-but then that sound is heard much higher up in the sound stage. Not like the thud- in pop/rock music which rightly emanates from the lower end of the enclosure.

John
30-09-2009, 19:06
Hi Varum
Interesting for me I can get quite a realistic rock drum sound; maybe its the 15" bass drivers (dipole bass) and at some point might upgrade my Duet speakers to Trios (having 2 15" speakers per speaker) for even more impact

hifi_dave
30-09-2009, 19:26
Just think about the acres of skin in a drum kit, all designed to move air efficiently. How can you possibly approach anything like that sound with a squitty 6 inch driver ? There's nothing there to move the air !!!

To even attempt a drum kit you need a sodding great, preferably efficient, bass driver. 12 inches or larger make a stab at the job.

Marco
30-09-2009, 19:30
Indeed - basically, you can't defeat the laws of physics.

The fact is, when you've heard a superb 15-incher in a massive cabinet, driven by a highly capable amplifier, nothing less will do!! ;)

The lovely thing about my Tannoys is that they do both 'brutal' and subtle, depending on the music programme, with equal aplomb. They either put a lump in your throat, or a punch a lump in your stomach... :eyebrows:

Marco.

hifi_dave
30-09-2009, 19:42
There's something very satisfying about a speaker that can move your stomach as well as stir your emotions.

Varun
30-09-2009, 19:42
Hi Dave (W)

Of course I know that. The 803 still does a good job. Please have a look at the bass drum and the tympanis the orchestras use- the pop/rock drums are not even a remote match.

Yes of course my speakers move air- and go loud and have perhaps the best integration of the three frequencies I have heard. The LF response is far better than the 10" woofer in SD Acoustics ever achieved.

I am raising issues which are difficult to explain-without examples-I mean demonstration. In Liverpool city centre, one day preparations were being made for the Beatles parade I think. I had just come out of the library and was walking past some workmen and a cherry picker. Suddenly some one turned the speaker hanging in air from the cherry picker on. It was hung in mid air. Goodness the thump of the bass kick hit your chest with enormous force. The sound was quickly turned down as an older couple were closer to the speaker than I was.

The sound was taut and not a thud- a well controlled well contoured sound.
I will come back to this subject later but yes larger the drivers better the bass. What about the Jamo 909s then Marco?

Marco
30-09-2009, 19:44
There's something very satisfying about a speaker that can move your stomach as well as stir your emotions.

Yes, I often say the same thing about my wife! :lol:

Marco.

hifi_dave
30-09-2009, 19:46
I don't think it's just about the size, it's also the efficiency or ease of drive. I've had huge American jobbies which do low bass but no punch or definition.

Varun
30-09-2009, 19:49
Yes, I often say the same thing about my wife! :lol:

Marco.

Marco- surely you do not mean that- move stomach- for a medical man that can mean so many unhealthy things!

Marco
30-09-2009, 20:20
LOL. I guess it's how you interpret it! I meant 'move' in an emotional sense, as in she's a great cook :smoking:

After one of her (exceptionally) hot curries though, 'move stomach' (or should that be 'move botty') takes on a whole other meaning... :eyebrows:

Marco.

Varun
30-09-2009, 20:46
Of course I knew what you meant.

Here are two images of orchestral percussion - for those who may not know.

Timpani first. Each drum has to be specifically tuned for each work.
http://img121.imageshack.us/img121/632/timpani.jpg



The orchestral bass drum-I am told has to be minimum 34"-preferably 40".
http://img121.imageshack.us/img121/1179/bassdrum.jpg

DSJR
30-09-2009, 21:45
And you people with very large speakers are with partners?????????

Oh, I forgot, you have a neat living room and have a "den" with the stereo in it - preferably well away from the "living" accommodation :D :gig:

hifi_dave
30-09-2009, 21:49
Yes, I do and your point is.........:scratch:


Oh and mine also has a shower room and kitchen with fully stocked fridge....:cool:

Varun
02-10-2009, 06:07
Hi Varum
My room is smaller 4m by 3m and yet I can get good bass Perhaps some kind of room correction on the bass might help
Can you show us a picture of your room and equipment I am sure some people here will be able to help

John,

All my blah..blah about bass slam and this and that... I am afraid no need to consider room correction-thanks for helpful suggestions. I realized last night - the cartridge is on its way out. That needs the Koestsu being posted to ESCCo tomorrow and if the damage is too severe -then what- re-tip Dynavector or a DECCA or?? I will have to decide.

For the moment CD only and that means an occasional listen or no listen.

hifi_dave
02-10-2009, 08:54
Oh dear, commiserations, that's gonna be a long time gone.:(

Varun, please refresh my memory (it's an age thing), what speakers and amp do you use now ? :scratch:

Varun
02-10-2009, 14:19
Dave (W)

here are the images -I have deleted the links on my gallery with photobucket as I could not see anthing on my lap top..and the problem could not be fixed.

so this time via imageshack.
The System: VPI TNT with 12.5 JME arm and dyna XX-1
Plinius amplification:
Plinius M14 Phono pre-amp
Plinius CDLAD- Line level
Plinius SA250 Class A -250W.
http://img203.imageshack.us/img203/1860/systemsmall.jpg
Speakers B&W 803s

http://img203.imageshack.us/img203/1732/803ssmall.jpg

Marco
02-10-2009, 15:54
Hi Varun,

Nice pictures :)

Have you also included them in your Gallery pics? If not, could you transfer them into there?

Cheers!

Marco.

Mike Reed
02-10-2009, 16:26
[QUOTE=hifi_dave;

As for the Isobarik, I really couldn't see the attraction at all.[/QUOTE]

It's all in the bass; like Christmas, it was deep and crisp and even. Pity about the upper echelons, though (bit coarse).

They did give a terrific 'wall of sound' as opposed to imaging, but with backs against the wall, they weren't designed for imaging. Needed a 250 at least to drive them properly, though.

They're still very popular (but I wouldn't go back.......)

Varun
02-10-2009, 16:28
Thanks Marco,

The old galery pictures have been deleted as I could not view any of those.

I will take some more-and place the new ones on the gallery.

Varun
02-10-2009, 16:37
How about the Proacs Mike?

You have them nicely placed for imaging- what about the bass and room interaction etc?

Mike Reed
02-10-2009, 20:43
How about the Proacs Mike?

You have them nicely placed for imaging- what about the bass and room interaction etc?


The only way they'll be moving is in favour of 'something completely different', probably electrostatics, but in no time soon !

Yep, they image well beyond the speaker cabinets (width-wise). No bass/interraction problems at all.

However, am currently sussing out an LFD MCT which I have on a week or so's dem. To say I'm disappointed is an understatement !

Since May I've tried a few stages. An Art Audio Vinyl 1 (didn't work properly either into the 552 pre. OR direct to power amps.; a mystery even the designer couldn't fathom); I recently had a Superline in (powered from my pre. as my current Prefix is), which was sonically superb but the RFI and electrical (bad earthing?) discharges could not be accommodated. Now this £3K, much-revered Essex phono stage, which is somewhat lacklustre.

I'm a bit pissed off, to put it mildly. Luckily (and by the Grace of y.k.w.) I'm not lumbered with expensive kit I can't live with.

Was going to post my findings when I'd reached the pot of gold, but somehow this seemed an opportune time. Never had this problem with my Dansette !!

The Grand Wazoo
02-10-2009, 20:49
However, am currently sussing out an LFD MCT which I have on a week or so's dem. To say I'm disappointed is an understatement !


Beware long run-in times with LFD phono stages, Mike.
My MC1 sounds like a bag of (very bright & wishy washy) spanners for 2 whole weeks before it comes on song, so I'd say that a week's loan is not enough.

Varun
02-10-2009, 20:50
I am sorry to hear about phono stage problems Mike,

I know very little about the choices but Neil (The Dalek Supremo) had put his Chord stage on the "Private Exhibition" section a while ago asking if any one was interested.

Varun
05-10-2009, 20:35
I was reading Alvin Gold's 2005 review of B&W 800Ds, the only model with 15" woofer they make. I was interested to learn that his room measures 3.5x9 meters. Not too wide for speakers of that size I would have thought-but then that is the kind of dimensions most houses have.

Marco- your room is wider and I note that you sit well away from the speakers-something I also prefer. It would seem that the dimensions of the B&Ws are similar to the Tannoys except for being deeper and less wide. I see they are used as monitors some where!