National Audio Show 2009, Whittlebury Hall - My impressions

[Barry]

National Audio Show, Whittlebury Hall, 26.09.09.

Generally I tend to avoid these do’s like the plague: too crowded; too noisy with the exhibitors trying to outdo one another; the rooms too small to host more than a few listeners - they are the very worst places to hear anything properly. So why did I relent? Well it has been over 25 years since I last attended a show (I think it was at Swiss Cottage, London) and as it was only two hours drive away I thought it was about time that I ought to find out what’s new. The real clincher was the fact that I knew Dave Crawley would be demonstrating there and so there could be a good chance of meeting some other AoS forum members.

Since I was there I though I may as well post my impressions, no doubt other members who attended will do the same. Please note that my impressions are that: personal and mine; others may well have had totally different perspective on the event.

First impressions were not good: too loud; bass too boomy; stereo imaging ludicrously inaccurate – what do people listen to; certainly not live music that’s for sure! At this rate I would be in and out within a half hour. I never had any intention to visit all 70 odd exhibitors; rather I would only visit those that interested me. That meant that I avoided cable vendors and providers of ‘tweaky’ spikes, fancy connectors and other foo items.

My first port of call was to the Soundsmith room to hear the strain gauge cartridge and find out if it really is worth £12K! Well is it? – Couldn’t possibly say, as the speakers they were using (Noria ‘Baby Grand Reference’) presented a treble sound field that sounded as if it was 4’ off the ground, and not particularly deep. They were playing Bartok’s The Miraculous Mandarin’. Very impressive, very clear, but the distorted sound stage distracted me from hearing if the instruments were tonally accurate.

Next stop was the Absolute Sound Room (one of the two that did not require a ticket). Here I listened to the Martin Logan Summits powered by Audio Research Ref 210 amplifiers fed by AR Ref 5 preamp and AR CD5 player. I’m I big fan of electrostatic speakers and spent a little time here, sat at the back listening. Again the sound stage appeared to be too high, perhaps the speakers should have been tilted down slightly – but a system I could happily live with.

Hi Fi World had a demonstration room, and when I popped in Peter Comeau was giving a talk on electrostatics (Quad 2905) vs. moving coil (PCM, model unknown but costing similar to the Quads). The room was full; I was sat right at the back behind some 10 rows of seats and way off to the left hand side. I thus couldn’t be expected to hear either speaker properly. None the less The Quads made a good showing of themselves despite being played, again, too loudly – all the more important as the demonstration disc was by Jacintha (?), a jazz singer. Couldn’t see the amp, probably one of the World Audio Designs. The same track was then played on the PCMs. Despite Peter’s best efforts to adjust the volume so that the perceived level was the same, the PCMs were quieter and sounded better for it and in some ways better than the Quad; the PCMs had a tighter bass. As I worked my way out I heard someone in the audience say that he thought the Quads “presented a wider sound stage and were more ‘natural’”.

The MIT room demonstrated Focal speakers (small ones). They sounded reasonably good but not enough to make me want to stay.

A&D Audio were demonstrating Eminent Technology hybrid speakers, the LFT-8b. According to the blurb these dipole Linear Field Transducers are the magnetic equivalent of an electrostatic, crossing over at 180Hz to an 8” woofer. Demonstrated using Quad amp and CD player. At £3000 a pair, they were one of the best speakers I heard at the show. The demonstration of female singer was at the correct volume, with a realistic soundstage, excellent imaging and a beautifully clean and clear sound, only let down by a tendency to boom occasionally; they were only 2’ out from the rear wall in a small room. Ah - dipole speakers!

Lovington Horn Speakers were demonstrating their SH-1 single horn speaker using a modified 4” (?) Lowther driver and powered by bespoke SET monoblock amplifiers made by John Howes (using a 300B, so only a few watts) and a Music First ‘transformer’ preamp. Couldn’t see the player but it used an Audio Note DAC1. Surprisingly, I enjoyed this system. Normally I dislike horn speakers, admiring their transient capabilities but not accepting their colourations. Well these speakers made me reconsider my prejudices. Jan Garbarak’s ‘Madar’ was being used as a demonstration disc (ECM 1515 519 075-2, the fact that I noted the recording speaks volumes) and the tabla playing and ‘Moroccan’ sounding guitar were very realistic. I should add it was played at a realistic level. Hmm - maybe horn speakers have improved in the twenty odd years since I lived with some (Lowther Acoustas)?

TEO Audio were demonstrating the Lumen White speakers powered by McIntosh MC1000 amps and a Wadia player. TEO market room treatment accessories, which were used in the relatively small room to good effect, but the overall sound did not encourage me to stop and listen for too long.

Audiofreaks were demonstrating Avalon speakers powered by large Conrad Johnson amplifiers. Performance of Vivaldi’s Four Season (Neville Marriner and the Academy of St Martins in the Field, Decca Argo) played on a Kazuma player with a Stogi(?) arm (couldn’t see the cartridge, but might have been a Benz) was excellent, with a lovely crisp sound. I am very familiar with this recording and enjoyed hearing it on this, undoubtedly, expensive system.

Real Hi Fi (now there’s a contentious name) were demonstrating an Onix XCD50 player through an Onix XIA160 amp (don’t know the power; it uses EL34 output valves, so no more than 25w/channel) feeding Horning ‘Eurodite’ speakers. Very good but again too loud, though the kick drum was realistic.

Didn’t stay long in the Avia HiFi room –a loud noisy din!

Stopped to listen to some Magnepan speakers (sorry didn’t note the model number) and stayed a little while. One of the better demonstrations. Another dipole design – is this saying something?

Aurousal (wow what a name) were displaying their VS speakers, playing them at a sensible level, but I thought they sounded too ‘steely’.

Just had to listen to the Cabasse £108,000 ‘beachball’ speakers. Were they any good? Well in my opinion they were probably producing the best sound of the show – but at that price they ought to. Still too loud for my tastes and a little bassy but they displayed incredible dynamics. I was sat at the back of a large room with about a dozen bodies between me and the speakers, so I was not able to assess their imaging properties. What I did hear was a correct presentation of height.

HiFi+ had a demonstration room playing an Esoteric X CD player through a Leben CS600 amp into Avalon Evolution N20 speakers. Very relaxing and neutral, and being played at a sensible level. A figure of £20,000 was written on the white board alongside the list of components – is that what the above system costs?

Naim, a company whom I usually go out of my way to avoid for fear of being incensed by the company bullshit and sycophantic slobbering of Naim groupies, were actually making reasonably pleasant noises with their smaller speakers. Good depth, bass and correct height, even if the treble did ‘shout’ at you from time to time. None of this could be said for their larger speakers being demonstrated in the next room!

Pure Sound, or rather the room with Pure Sound electronics on static display were again demonstrating Cabasse speakers. This time they were football-sized enclosures on stalks (Cabasse Riga) fed by a Coherent Sstems Oracle Pro CD player, Coherent amplification (Belles?) with a Cabasse 20 sub woofer support. Very enjoyable. There seems to be something about spherical enclosures; they are the best shape to deal with diffraction. Either that or I was starting to mellow.

Returned into the Soundsmith room again to give the strain gauge cartridge another listen. This time they were playing Miles Davis’s ‘Kind of Blue’. Wonderfully clear, but the system was not particularly good at depth and again the height was wrong. A cartridge I would like to get my hands on, but at £12K (including phono stage) this is highly unlikely. (Don’t believe all the techno-babble you read in the promotional literature).

Finally popped into the EAR Tim de Paravicini room. The entire system used TdP Yoshino designs. I was intrigued by the speakers that were being used. Whilst too loud, the jazz bass disc being used (Christin McBride ‘Live at the Torie’) displayed good depth, with good punchy bass. The saxophone was also well portrayed. I was amused to see that ordinary mains flex was used as speaker cable.

By now I had had enough and probably heard enough. I did look in several other rooms, but they were either making such a racket or were producing such an indifferent sound that I didn’t stop. Generally I was shocked at the expensive noise being created, and that several exhibitors had already taken orders. Whilst I heard some good gear, I would want to hear it again under more controlled conditions – preferably in my own home.

On my way out, having spent three hours at the show, I spotted Dave Crawley of Sound HiFi and stopped to introduce myself and to enquire if any other AoS members were around. Alex Nitiken was alongside and I have to say that I‘m ashamed but I hadn’t realised Alex’s connection with ANT. Sorry Alex. Well anyway I listened to some Stevie Ray Vaughan on a Technics/Jelco deck (Dave, it wasn’t an SL 1200!) into an ANT phono stage and ANT headphone amp into Denon phones. I was impressed: for £199 you get a small, compact and very good headphone amp.

So that’s it. Was it worth the £10 entrance? Overall, Yes – I heard some interesting gear and had my preconceptions changed (for better or for worse). You get a free copy of November’s Hi Fi World and the show guide is contained in the first issue of Audio, a new magazine edited by Malcolm Stewart; though based on the first issue I won’t be looking for it on the newsstand.

It was good to meet both Dave and Alex. Sorry Marco, you were around somewhere but I didn’t get to meet you.

[Ammonite Audio]

I called in only briefly, because I was en-route from the Far North back home, and enjoyed my time there, even if the ground floor layout was a bit like the Minotaur's Labyrinth! I must have walked around in circles at least ten times. It was good to meet Johnny from Audio Origami, who has just re-wired my Tecnoarm; also to chat with Dave Cawley, Marco and Alex Nikitin.

Overall, I did think that the venue was better than usual. The bigger rooms used by many exhibitors provided a much nicer environment than those in the Heathrow Park. My only real disappointment was the lack of new CDs being sold in the foyer - I had hoped to get some that were featured on the HiFi+ giveaway Crystal Cables Arabesque CD.

I can't really comment on how anything sounded as my trot around the rooms was too brief, but the big Cabasse spheres both looked and sounded impressive (wouldn't it be nice to have the room to accommodate them?).

[DaveK]

Hi Barry,
Brilliant write up, for which, many thanks. Saved me 10 quid and a journey :lol: as I now feel I have a good impression of everything worth seeing and listening to. You didn't miss much, including Marco, :lolsign: - I've met him, so take my word for it :lol: . Sorry Marco, you know I don't mean it !! honest. ;) .
'Twill be interesting to hear of others appraisals, particularly Marco's - it'll give him the opportunity to get his own back :lol: .
Thanks again - you are maintaining your usual standard as an informer - I always enjoy reading your detailed posts.
Cheers,

[Spectral Morn]

Thanks Barry for the write up. Maybe someone else will have the photos to illustrate your item.

Shows are very much a mixed bag, but the common stupidity of playing to loud and having speakers way to big in the room is something I frankly don't understand. Have your flagships on static show and a smaller speaker down the range that suits the room size in use. You end up with a much better sound (no boom and tiz) show of your system matching skills and listeners enjoy the experience. However don't do that and its an exercise in making excuses....after many years you think exhibitors would learn, but many don't:doh::(


Regards D S D L

[Primalsea]

Yeah, Its a funny one, the shows. I have only heard one system at a commercial show that was really good. It was all crammed into a small room but the guy took his time on the set up and you could tell he was passionate about hifi and music. A lot of people hosting the rooms have a very not bothered attitude or are totally full of shit. I dont know about about anyone else but I could never consider using a dealer that had made a complete hash of their demo room unless I knew exactly what I wanted and didnt need their advice.

Something needs to be done as you should go to the show to be impressed, not disappointed. Maybe they should get someone who knows what they're doing to evaluate the set ups and show the exhibitors how to do it properly. I'm also surprised that the manufacturers dont get involved. When your dealer makes your £22K speakers sound utter rubbish surely its in your interest to sort them out. Even worse when its your £125K speakers made to sound really bad that they're outshone by an all in one system you really, really need to have words.

[DaveK]

Hi Guys,
At the risk of being described as a cynic (who, me? ;) ), I suspect the exhibitors are aware, by and large, of how poor their exhibits sound. It's part and parcel of their 'snake oil' sales technique, IMHO. It goes something like. "It doesn't sound it's best in these surroundings - what could? - but just imagine what this lovely bit/set of kit would sound like once you have set it up properly in your listening room - you would make it give of it's best and you'll be very happy."
Given the fact that some people turn up at these shows because they're in the market for new kit, and are thus pre-conditioned to be susceptible to this pitch, ensures that it is sometimes successful. And a lot of people feel they must have the latest and best, and where else to see and hear it? If it was exhibited here it must be superb, never mind what my ears are telling me!
Me. a cynic? - never!!:confused:

[hifi_dave]

In my experience of setting up many systems at the shows, I think it's best not to stress the rooms too much. What I mean is don't put in a megabuck pair of huge speakers along with megabuck electronics and front end, the result is invariably a terrible sound. and even more so because the public are expecting a lot from it.:doh:

The best sounds we ever made were with small, simple, inexpensive systems playing music that people actually like. Don't overdo the volume and just enjoy yourself. It will sound better at home.

[Joe]

Thanks for the write-up, Barry. I don't 'do' hifi shows, but your description was as good as being there, without the crowds and noise, and without having to spend £10.

[Marco]

Hi Shuggs,

It was nice to meet you, too, eventually... Sorry I wasn't there earlier, but I left my mobile in the car (which was parked miles away in a field) and so I couldn't pick up any calls or messages! I did bump into Baron and his good lady, which was nice.

Shame I missed Barry and Steve (Twelvebears), too. I'm sure there'll be a next time :)

We had a great time, heard some very interesting things, and also had a cool sesh later in the evening in the bar with David Price, Adam Smith, J7 from Audio Origami, Dave Cawley, and JJ of MAD cables, along with their respective wives. There was some great banter and many illuminating discussions centered around hi-fi. We didn't leave until 10.30pm and got home at 1am, so I'm still a bit knackered now after a 290-mile round trip.

I'll add my thoughts later and pick up on some of Barry's observations :cool:

Marco.

[REM]

Hi guys

Just wondering if anyone managed to get a look and listen to the new Quad integrated? Any further details, price, specs anything really? Copied this piccie from WW, hope that doesn't mean excommunication or anything.

[Spectral Morn]

In my experience of setting up many systems at the shows, I think it's best not to stress the rooms too much. What I mean is don't put in a megabuck pair of huge speakers along with megabuck electronics and front end, the result is invariably a terrible sound. and even more so because the public are expecting a lot from it.:doh:

The best sounds we ever made were with small, simple, inexpensive systems playing music that people actually like. Don't overdo the volume and just enjoy yourself. It will sound better at home.


Exactly the right thing to do. Having been involved in shows both as a retailer and involved as part of a team organising a show it never fails to amaze me how awful rooms sound. As I said earlier and as Dave says here its usually because the worst speakers for the room are picked.

Eric Kingdom of Sony and Ken of Marantz know how to set up their rooms as do a number of others, but most don't, or can't be bothered which is self defeating. Crap sound fewer sales and a waste of the cost and hassle of doing a show....:doh::doh::doh::doh::(


Something needs to be done as you should go to the show to be impressed, not disappointed. Maybe they should get someone who knows what they're doing to evaluate the set ups and show the exhibitors how to do it properly. I'm also surprised that the manufacturers dont get involved. When your dealer makes your £22K speakers sound utter rubbish surely its in your interest to sort them out. Even worse when its your £125K speakers made to sound really bad that they're outshone by an all in one system you really, really need to have words.

Yes me. I would be more than happy to do this for anyone who wants to avail of my 20+ years of experience. However my fee while reasonable will not be cheap...;):) However as I will make sure your room sounds its best the extra cudos and sales that result will make me well worth it.

I know the above reads as me being a bit arrogant, but setting up and sorting out room set ups is something I both enjoy and I am very good at. Familiarity with products helps, but as the fundamentals apply to all brands etc I can usually work my magic. However sometimes the room can't be beat, but trying to work with it is a basic most of these guys don't seem to have grasped.




Regards D S D L

[DSJR]

also had a cool sesh later in the evening in the bar with David Price, Adam Smith, J7 from Audio Origami, Dave Cawley, and JJ of MAD cables, along with their respective wives. There was some great banter and many illuminating discussions centered around hi-fi. We didn't leave until 10.30pm and got home at 1am, so I'm still a bit knackered now after a 290-mile round trip.



Here we go - the "in-crowd" of the late noughties.....:) - S'all right, I was legend in my dem-room myself many years ago.....

I still don't think HiFi shows are worth travelling too far to visit. The comments regarding too much volume, ghastly bass (especially from vinyl sources in too small rooms through heavily ported US sourced speakers not designed for concrete box rooms) and totally unnatural soundstages are spot-on IMO.

Two old-era show dems stand out. The first was a late seventies fair size Quad room. '57's up on trestle tables with TD160/Shure (I think), 33/405. The sound was so comfortable, pure and relaxed. The second was an early Heybrook dem. TT2/Ittok/Asak, Naim preamp(?) into EAR 509's and HB2's playing Cantate Domino (anyone remember that LP?). the sound was magical and brought tears to my eyes - very evocative of HiFi dave's comments about demming real-world equipment at sensible levels.

[Alan Sircom]

Thanks for the positive comments. Glad you liked the room; I tried to keep the demos simple and fun and tried to keep volume levels relatively low throughout the show because the room was so large (11x9x4m). We had some DaaD room acoustic treatments, which helped greatly, but in the context of a room that large they were rather like trying to fix a broken leg with a Band-Aid.

The approximate cost of the system was about £20k, depending on cable length. The hardware alone was about £13/£14k.

In fairness to those who showed, the first time in a new venue creates endless problems in terms of room dynamics and learning the acoustics. Unless you pitch up with every product in your portfolio, you never can tell. Those who showed up this year will probably make an even better sound next year.

Of course, one of the problems with any show is you want to demonstrate your best or your latest products, but often end up doing so in a room that's totally inappropriate for the task. The other problem is everyone doing the demos gets progressively more and more deaf over the weekend and gradually turns the volume levels up. That spreads, because increased volume levels in one room mean the volume levels next door go up to compensate, and so it goes on. By half way through the third day (Edit: I meant third presentation, about early afternoon of day one), many rooms are hitting the end-stops of the room itself.

[twelvebears]

Sorry I wasn't there earlier, but I left my mobile in the car (which was parked miles away in a field) and so I couldn't pick up any calls or messages!

Ah.... that explains it. And there I was thinking I'd managed to upset you. ;-)

No worries Matey, just would have been nice to have had a beer. Dave and Alex said you were around, but without a clear idea of what you looked like and no mobile, I was counting on bumping into you at Dave's stand but our paths never crossed.

Unfortunately my visit was cut shorter that planned due to an urgent call from the homestead, but I was only about 50mins away, so no biggie.

So then, impressions of the show? OK, well first ones weren't good. Apparently there was no disabled parking. SO despite a blue badge and crutches, I was also in one of the 'Copse' car parks in a field on the far side of the moon. Second minus was that even though this was a BIG hotel, there was NOWHERE to get any cash, so my last folding went on my ticket. Fortunately pretty much all the stands took cards. Yes I know I should of though ahead and brought some, but you know I kind of thought there would be a cash machine on site somewhere.....

Anyway, back to the show. Well it was well attended, by both visitors and exhibitors. Which on one level was annoying, in that it was tough to get a good listed to pretty much anything, but at least it shows our hobby is alive and kicking in these difficult times, so lets see that as a positive.

Layout was a bit of a nightmare. To quote Dave C: "I've been back to my room about 5 times and have been a different way every time". Yeah I can see what you mean Dave, but fortunately my boy scout sense of direction kicked in and I managed to find my way around OK.

I have to say that generally I was underwhelmed by the sounds I heard. MANY of the systems where obviously worth serious money, and yet as usual they were squeezed in tiny rooms. Then ironically some of the larger rooms hosted a mishmash of exhibitors with no real focus. Arcam for example had a massive room which seem to serve only to show off an HD projector. Admittedly the picture was awesome and of a fantastic quality transfer of a live Foo Fighters performance, but the sounds were nothing special. The Focal room sounded impressive, but with the speakers costing £65k, it was other-worldly.

One room I wandered into where the sound WAS impressive, was one showing Audio Epilog speakers. And at the time I walked in, it was the tiny AUDT stand-mounts that were up. Generally I'm with Marco, believing that you need a decent size speaker for decent size sounds. But the scale and weight of sound coming from these diddy 10x5.5x8" miniatures was seriously impressive. Better yet, the price of pint-sized perfection? Between £690 and £830 depending on finish, which given what I heard, the obviously high standard of build and drivers, and the fact that Audio Epilog speakers are hand-made in small volumes, seems pretty good.

I think my overall impression, and I may be wrong here, was one of slight disappointment that there didn't seem to be many smaller manufacturers, producing the kind of products that 'normal people' could aspire to. With the exception of a few like Dave and Alex, much of it was such serious money that I felt completely detached from any real interest in the products. It was a bit like wandering round a car show full of Astons, Ferraris and Lambos (of which I spotted many in the car park) - Very pretty but ultimately having nothing in common with me.

Also, like them or not, I thought it was really disappointing that home-grown names like Linn, Tannoy, B&W and ATC hadn't bothered to turn up.

So all in all, an entertaining way to spend a few hours and get to say hello to a few people, but not something which was likely to influence my next purchase by identifying a manufacturer I now have an interest in. Oh apart from Alex's new headphone amp of course. :)

[Dave Cawley]

.
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http://www.soundhifi.com/septshow.jpg

The show was a great opportunity to listen with your own ears, rather than with "internet forum ears" Nothing beats listening to something yourself. It allows you to determine what you actually like, and don't like!

Over half the rooms were using inappropriate speakers, amplifiers and music. You might wonder why the owners did not check out the other rooms and realise something was wrong!

Nordost using their cable and my modest Focal speakers, got my award for second best sound at the show. A simple system playing simple music. But there was one clear and absolute winner and that goes to Martin Brewster with the £64K Gamut speakers and amplification system, a very big sound, not loud, just huge. Totally effortless dynamics and, well.. just lovely. Both David Price and I are saving up............

Hi Fi World made a point of meeting members and chatting, nice blokes! The photo here shows editor David Price, Adam Smith contributor and turntable obsessive and my good self.

We did very well getting every AOS member that was there, I think? Many people informally gave us "best sound of the show" all the more remarkable since we were using a modified Technics SL-1200 and a pair of closed back Denon Headphones. A.N.T signal processing of course! We even had a reel to reel playing though Alex's new headphone amplifier, show stopper or what!

Even though the venue was totally unprepared for an event of this type and relentlessly screwed both exhibitors and visitors, I'm sure this will be the show to go to next year. Marco needs to remember his phone and we will all meet up properly.

Oh, and the Rick Wakeman concert brought tears rolling down my cheeks, nostalgic or what!

Regards

Dave

[Beechwoods]

The more I read the more jealous I get at not having been able to make it. I can only imagine how good that reel to reel must have sounded :) The reviews here are excellent though, definitely giving a flavour of the highs and lows. Thanks everyone for taking the time to write up about things.

[freefallrob]

Well unfortunately I didn't get to go (have man flu) but i've read the comments here with interest and still(!) would have liked to have gone.

It is difficult getting it right at a show. I did the Hifi Wigwam show Scalford and it wasn't that easy getting the sound right and as the day went on things did change and need 'adjusting', we also fell into the trap of over driving the room once to often.

On the whole it was well received though.

Thanks for the write up, i'd love to see more pictures!

[Spectral Morn]

The more I read the more jealous I get at not having been able to make it. I can only imagine how good that reel to reel must have sounded :) The reviews here are excellent though, definitely giving a flavour of the highs and lows. Thanks everyone for taking the time to write up about things.

Indeed yes, but............................where are the photos? We need lots of photos................



Regards D S D L

[Magna Audio]

I thought it was a reasonable venue.
Bigger better sounding rooms for most over the previous shows I have attended.

Vavles seemed to be the order of the day.
I did not bother with the rooms that had small towers in;)

I liked the Lovington horns sound, also a pair in a large room on 1st floor - squarish box with 12" driver and horn spiked on top. The room was a bit echoy but seeing beyond that they had the type of sound I like.
There was a pair of more conventional twin driver speakers perhaps 8" that made a nice enough sound - again a large room.

Sunday was not too crowded.

I got a good haul of vinyl too - can't be bad.

Nice to see Music First / SB with some transformer stuff. Thinking of getting MC step up Xformers made up for use with a DIY tube phono stage I have on the winter drawing board.

As always I would like to transport some of the gear to my room or my / GRF speakers to that room to do a proper comparison but until an atom level teleporter is made, transporting the lugs is the best we are going to get.

Had anyone tried recording show rooms / comparing with recording done at home - amateur / pro recording engineers? Probably not worth it.

Didn't meet any AoS'ers apart from Dave Crawley.
I did meet several Wammers - I_Should_Coco, Bigdur, Lord Summit & others.
Perhaps some kind of nerdy id is needed - could use Bluetooth name and visibility parameters to open you identify to those in a room / local area? - nah that would never catch on...

Daves's 1210 with Jelco looked good and I got some ideas about poss placement of a 12" arm:) another project another year perhaps (The PL-71 arm is pretty damn good).
I thought the end result of the SL1210 demo was a bit over bass heavy for my ears but detail, clarity and body of the music were all there - perhaps the Denon phones?

As usual, I came home and played my system and liked it - A LOT!
Esp. interesting listening to some vinyl I bought at the show and then tying it at home on return.

Some general pics from Zerogain... (scroll down for equipment photo's rather than random Zero gainers.
http://www.zerogain.com/forum/showpost.php?p=262496&postcount=14

[Marco]

Hi Steve (TB),


Ah.... that explains it. And there I was thinking I'd managed to upset you. ;-)


No chance, matey - my fault entirely, although as I'd also left my wallet there and so had to call my wife's purse 'into the action' instead at the Diverse and Stamford vinyl stalls. Some would say the latter was a cunning plan! :eyebrows:

I'm typing up my thoughts on the show now, including comments on the venue in terms of its location and facilities... I'm just nipping out for a bit, so I should have them posted for around teatime :)

Surely someone must have taken a few pictures of the rooms?? If not, we'll have to organise something better for next year!

Marco.

[DSJR]

I wonder if anyone will do research on the age demographic for this show and see if, like all the others, it goes up by a year every year..

What's the ppint in demming cr@p £20K+ systems to people who cannot and will never be able to afford this stuff? There's only a very few hundred people in the whole of the UK who would justify such a spend IMO..

I have more to say on this subject, as I've spent the whole of this morning with year 7's and 8's composing on and "playing" percussion on some VERY loud bongo's, djembe's and associated instruments. I wish it were possible to get them to take the leap from MP3 personals with cheapo ear-piece headphones to a small but effective baby "HiFi!"

Let's be honest fella's, with VERY few exceptions, most stereo's get MUCH WORSE and far further away from reality the higher the purchase price gets. I look forward to hearing a turntable based system that even BEGINS to reproduce percussive bass properly - A NAS Dias comes within spitting distance and I suspect a bass-controlled Techie may also, but this "organic musicality" so beloved of so many fruitbox owners is WRONG, WRONG, WRONG big time!!!!!!!!

I also think that "trebly" speakers are totally wrong as well, as a hand on a drum-skin, or woodblocks clicking together, let alone cow-bells or tambourine style instruments... Those fancy, hideously expensive metal dome or otherwise tweeters jangling and spitting away don't have any real fidelity to the original sound (and yes, the "sparkle" in my BC2's ain't right either, although the added damping and port mod helps bass a bit.......

[hifi_dave]

Of course the average ago of the Show visitors goes up year by year - they are the same old faces every year. I haven't been for a couple of years, I don't feel the need but when I did and when I used to help out, it was the same people over and over. Usually middle aged men, collecting leaflets and spending two minutes in each room. Train spotters, tyre kickers, what have you and they are decreasing each year, not being replaced by new blood.:lolsign::lolsign:

[pure sound]

Some pictures I took on a brief trip round the show. I missed alot but these items were interesting.

New Project Xtension TT with 12" ortofon arm. Looked lovely.

http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i318/murrayjohnson/P1010125.jpg

Galibier TT with Soundsmith Strain Gauge cartridge

http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i318/murrayjohnson/P1010124.jpg

New Unison research S9 with parallel single ended 572's. Very pretty

http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i318/murrayjohnson/P1010123.jpg

Clearaudio turntable

http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i318/murrayjohnson/P1010121.jpg

Gamut speaker (novel styling)

http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i318/murrayjohnson/P1010120-1.jpg

New VPI TT

http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i318/murrayjohnson/P1010119-1.jpg

New AVID Pulsare Phono stage

http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i318/murrayjohnson/P1010117-1.jpg

Rear of Horning speaker with 4 x Beyma drivers doing the grunty stuff

http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i318/murrayjohnson/P1010114.jpg

New Systemdek 3D with 12" Audio Origami arm

http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i318/murrayjohnson/P1010107-1.jpg

Zu Essence (damaged in transit but working well enough)

http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i318/murrayjohnson/P1010106-1.jpg

4W PX4 mono amp by John Howes

http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i318/murrayjohnson/P1010105.jpg

New Naim DAC

http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i318/murrayjohnson/P1010103.jpg

Escalante speaker with some kind of Isobarik bass loading within

http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i318/murrayjohnson/escalante.jpg

[chris@panteg]

I am so sorry i could not make it ' (i was asked to work sat) and i was going to bring my camera.

Sunday was a maybe ' but the Wife wanted to go shopping and i was paying:scratch: ahh well.

Hopefully next time , Scalford perhaps.

[Alex_UK]

Thanks for the porn I mean photos Pure_Sound - (the wood/finish on that Project looks amazing...)

[pure sound]

It actually reminded me of the kind of finish there was on some of those QUAD bookshelf speakers What HiFi used to rave about but despite that it definitely was an attractive piece. As was the Micro-esque new Palmer TT.

http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh107/pure_sound/palmer.jpg

[Spectral Morn]

It actually reminded me of the kind of finish there was on some of those QUAD bookshelf speakers What HiFi used to rave about but despite that it definitely was an attractive piece. As was the Micro-esque new Palmer TT.

http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh107/pure_sound/palmer.jpg


Thats cute.

Thanks for the photos Guy :)....keep them coming.


Regards D S D L

[Marco]

Thanks for the porn I mean photos Pure_Sound - (the wood/finish on that Project looks amazing...)

Amazing it may have looked. Pity it sounded distinctly unimpressive, though, Alex... Definitely a case of 'all fur and nae knickers', as they say up in Glasgow! :eyebrows:

Guy's SP10 absolutely murdered it.

Marco.

P.S May I draw your attention to post #37 here: http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?p=68672#post68672

[Spectral Morn]

Amazing it may have looked. Pity it sounded distinctly unimpressive, though, Alex... Definitely a case of 'all fur and nae knickers', as they say up in Glasgow! :eyebrows:

Guy's SP10 absolutely murdered it.

Marco.

Where is the full detailed write up you promised us all, your reading public for before tea time .....yesterday ?;) Ummmmmmmmmmmmmm?;):lol:


Regards D S D L

[DaveK]

Ditto or bump or whatever!

[Spectral Morn]

Ditto or bump or whatever!


Indeed....... ?????????



Regards D S D L

[Marco]

Where is the full detailed write up you promised us all, your reading public for before tea time .....yesterday ? Ummmmmmmmmmmmmm?


Temporarily delayed (due to other distractions), and at the moment half-written, but will be ready for posting tomorrow :)

Marco.

P.S It's not just a write-up on the hi-fi side, but also on the venue as a whole and how successful I felt it was compared to the Heathrow events of the past.

[jandl100]

I really enjoyed the Show.

My thoughts were (in no particular order) ...

Eminent Technology ribbon hybrids. I've wanted to hear these for ages and they are now being imported into the UK - Really fine at £3k.

The UKD room with ginormous £20k Unison/Opera speakers. Didn't sound 'big' at all - just natural powered by the UR S9 amp in Guy's photo. Nice.

The big Maggies (3.6) were pretty good, but after a minute or two a bass colouration came evident that sounded exactly like someone thumping a taut plastic film. Funny that. No, I couldn't live with it. Good on small scale music though where the panel wasn't being stressed.

The Cabasse speakers in the Coherent room were OK, if a little lacking in midrange rez. £6k, though? :scratch:

The BIG Cabasse at £108k were better - as they should be - with astonishing bass depth and control. Kodo drummers were impressive, but do folks really listen to this stuff? What about music? :mental:

The Quad stats sounded like Quad stats. Kind of bland - not for me - been there, done that - life's too short for boring hifi!!

Those big Gamut speakers in Guy's photos were sure interesting. Simply stunningly natural mids - a real jaw dropper - but, oh, that zingy tweeter! :doh: Vocal sibilance was unpleasantly pronounced. Not for me. Stick a decent tweeter on them and they would be world class, imho.

First time ever I really quite enjoyed Triangle speakers - Magellan Cello. The bass was 'impressive' in a hifi sort of way, but the mids and top were really very good.

Aurousal speakers - a bit upfront and hyped for me. Lots of bouncy enthusiasm though and very good vfm if you like that sort of thing.

The Audiofreaks room was quite good. At last an Avalon speaker that wasn't totally bland. Whatever new model they were demoing had a quite perky upper mid and treble. Shame about the rest which was the usual Avalon blandness. Look at all the money I'm saving by not liking them! ;)

Kudos new £1.2k speakers were fun. Bouncy and very alive - a Flat Earth sound I suspect, with mids a bit thinned out tonally maybe. Interesting and worth more of a listen.

Lovington horns. Nope, I just don't get on with these. Heard them before. Typical single paper driver thin grainy mids. Not for me.

The ART loudspeakers in the Marantz dem with Ken Ishiwata were interesting. Very alive, dynamic and open - I suspect a hyped up tweeter, but very impressive in a short dem.

Nice sounds emanating from Aspara horns and Pure Sound amps. The room was too big, but still a nice musical sound.
__

Yup, a fun Show - and well worth a 4 hour round car trip - I look forward to next year's - and of course the Scalford Show in March. :)

[pure sound]

The Audiofreaks room was quite good. At last an Avalon speaker that wasn't totally bland. Whatever new model they were demoing had a quite perky upper mid and treble. Shame about the rest which was the usual Avalon blandness. Look at all the money I'm saving by not liking them! ;)



http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh107/pure_sound/P1010102.jpg

[Alex Nikitin]

:)

Alex

[Beechwoods]

Fantastic! Start 'em young!

[DSJR]

What strikes me is all the "me too" turntables in those pics. So little "new" there, apart from some interesting tonearms - I bet the AO PU7 would be one of the best there as it's the simplest looking.

How much of this foo-fi is actually going to SELL in the UK. It's ok for the punters to drool over, but I remember shedloads of this stuff for sale a few years later in the second-hand emporiums for a fraction of their over-inflated original retail prices...

[baron]

I thought the Wilson Audio Sasha W/P system was superb. The Rick Wakman concert was very good as well.

[pure sound]

What strikes me is all the "me too" turntables in those pics. So little "new" there, apart from some interesting tonearms - I bet the AO PU7 would be one of the best there as it's the simplest looking.



Of those TT's the only one I heard playing was the Galibier one with the strain gauge cartridge. (that cartridge is something different albeit a modern take on an old idea)

Its also refreshing to see decks being made for & supplied with 12" arms and that a move has been made away from the straightjacket that was the Linn/Pink/Thorens size of deck. After a long wait we are also finally seeing the Japanese influence of the high mass belt driven turntables pioneered by Micro all those years ago when at the same time many UK dealers were force feeding everyone the Linn nonsense because it was all they knew!
So I think there is far more diversity of approach now and far more interesting use of materials than there was back in the 80's when the Vilchur model was the norm. Personally I think its a good thing. Brinkmann & GP Audio are now making DD's. Technics still are. There were also refurbished Garrards at the show.

I just happened to have pictured the items that interested me and those pictured above would've been unthinkable at a UK show back in 1985 when I went to my first Penta.

[hifi_dave]

The first silk driven, high mass turntable which turned my World around was Melco and that was before Micro I believe. One hundred weight of Bronze platter being driven by a hundred weight motor. Next upgrade was to dump on top another hundred weight of Bronze platter, raise the arm by spacer and - bloody heck - what an improvement a bit more mass can make.:eyebrows:

[pure sound]

I agree. I did hear a Melco once in Sweden. Extraordinary thing. Wasn't it Studio Beco who were doing that & AudioNote in the UK in the early 80's? (Be Yamamura). Trouble was it was all horrendously expensive, particularly given that there was little similarly priced stuff around then. Might not seem quite so insanely priced nowadays!

Was this the small version?

http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh107/pure_sound/melco3533.jpg

I gather that Melco did quite alot of work on heavier & heavier platters until it no longer made a difference. Something like 40Kg maybe?

I think they concentrated on making industrial sewing machines after that.

[DSJR]

I wish I'd kept my Mentor.......

http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q8/DSJR_photos/MentorDecca.jpg

80lb platter as I recall....

[pure sound]

Temporarily delayed (due to other distractions), and at the moment half-written, but will be ready for posting tomorrow :)

Marco.

P.S It's not just a write-up on the hi-fi side, but also on the venue as a whole and how successful I felt it was compared to the Heathrow events of the past.

;)

[Marco]

Oh I know. I'm having a bit of a 'mare' with it because every time I sit down to type the report, something comes up that I have to attend to more urgently, or I get distracted by what's happening on another thread...

Trouble is, there are too many interesting discussions on here!! ;)

Stay tuned, it's imminent - oi promise :eyebrows:

Marco.

[hifi_dave]

I agree. I did hear a Melco once in Sweden. Extraordinary thing. Wasn't it Studio Beco who were doing that & AudioNote in the UK in the early 80's? (Be Yamamura). Trouble was it was all horrendously expensive, particularly given that there was little similarly priced stuff around then. Might not seem quite so insanely priced nowadays!

Was this the small version?

http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh107/pure_sound/melco3533.jpg

I gather that Melco did quite alot of work on heavier & heavier platters until it no longer made a difference. Something like 40Kg maybe?

I think they concentrated on making industrial sewing machines after that.

That's it, Studio Beco. Back then a Rega was esoteric but to hear a Melco was like being on a different planet. The pic is of a much smaller one than I first heard, that really was a beast and it had an Audionote cartridge as you say. Can't remember the arm.

Be had some really interesting stuff and I asked for some cables to try. He sent me around a dozen samples, each one two inches long. Not terribly useful.:scratch:

[Barry]

That's it, Studio Beco. Back then a Rega was esoteric but to hear a Melco was like being on a different planet. The pic is of a much smaller one than I first heard, that really was a beast and it had an Audionote cartridge as you say. Can't remember the arm.

Be had some really interesting stuff and I asked for some cables to try. He sent me around a dozen samples, each one two inches long. Not terribly useful.:scratch:

Any idea what arm the EMT cartridge is fitted to?

Regards

[hifi_dave]

Over to you Guy.:scratch:

[pure sound]

I don't know. It looks rather nice though. I'll have to do some searching.

http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh107/pure_sound/Mysteryarm.jpg

[technobear]

Great venue. I hope Chester use this one again. The rooms were much better than the Park at Heathrow (or the Bristol Marriott for that matter). The bar prices could stun an elephant but at least the parking was free.

First a gripe: I HATE TICKETED DEMS :steam:

It's just ridiculous to have to get tickets for these things, making sure they don't overlap, and then spend the entire day watching the clock so that you don't miss the damn things. Spoils the whole day which is why I didn't bother with any of them!

Naturally I wanted to hear the new Zu Essence and I wasn't disappointed. Great speakers. A slightly less forward balance than the Druids but having adjusted to that I could be very happy with a pair of these. Certainly there was no other speaker at the show that I would spend £3,500 on over these and they showed quite a few far more expensive speakers the way it ought to be done.

The 18 Watts from the Vacuum State 300B's were sufficient for most of what we played although Dream Theater's Lines In The Sand wanted more power. These are nice amps if 18 Watts is enough for you.

The EMM Labs CD player is very good but then so it should be if the price I heard was correct.

Not much else really thrilled me at this show but there were a few more highlights.

The Cain & Cain Abbys were a surprise - much better than I was expecting and very good sound for I think £1850. They sounded much more musical, coherent and involving than the considerably more expensive Miles Marten III's which were in the same room.

The Fremont Escalante is a great speaker but at a silly price. It would fly off the shelves at 6 grand. It's smaller brother in the next room costs 6 grand and again would be competitve at 3 grand. Nice speakers but wrong price.

I'm not sure why but I missed the Aspara/Puresound system. I've liked the HL1 with Puresound before so would quite likely have enjoyed this room. Oh well. Next time.

Most of the rest was uninspiring frankly and definitely over-priced (and not just because I can't afford it). Some of it did some things well but there were always problems. Many systems lacked coherence. Some systems failed to follow fast bass playing or fast drumming. Many systems just sounded flat and boring. Most lacked dynamic realism and transient attack.

To my ears the Zu Essence was the only one that got right the coherence, top to bottom speed, dynamics, transient attack, scale - in short the only one that played everything we could throw at it and made it sound like real musicians playing real instruments (where appropriate) - and what's more they never broke a sweat doing it.

No-one else has mentioned the Zu's yet. Did any of you listen to them?

[amsterdam]

That's it, Studio Beco. Back then a Rega was esoteric but to hear a Melco was like being on a different planet. The pic is of a much smaller one than I first heard, that really was a beast and it had an Audionote cartridge as you say. Can't remember the arm.

Be had some really interesting stuff and I asked for some cables to try. He sent me around a dozen samples, each one two inches long. Not terribly useful.:scratch:

HI, I'm brand new to AOS and it's my first day at school, so please treat me gently :) I can't believe that on my first visit, you're discussing Be Yamamura & Studio Beco!:smoking:

I've been doing some personal research into Be's work for the last few months, and I'm hoping to see someone soon , who owns , what was Be's own Melco/ Fidelity Research FR66, purchased in the early eighties. Dave, did you visit Be when he lived in Bushey and did you know Bob Yates?

Thankyou.

Jonathan.

[Marco]

Hi Jonathan,

Welcome to AoS :)

Are you a member of the trade?

Marco.

[REM]

Chris (technobear) wrote


To my ears the Zu Essence was the only one that got right the coherence, top to bottom speed, dynamics, transient attack, scale - in short the only one that played everything we could throw at it and made it sound like real musicians playing real instruments (where appropriate) - and what's more they never broke a sweat doing it.

Hi Chris
Do you know what amplification they were using with the Essences?

Cheers

[amsterdam]

Hi Jonathan,

Welcome to AoS :)

Are you a member of the trade?

Marco.

Thankyou Marco.

I'm not currently in the trade, but I was many moons ago; I'm almost fully rehabilitated now:lol:

[Marco]

No worries, Jonathan. It sounded like you were so I was going to organise a trade account for you :)

Anyway, enjoy the forum and get stuck in to discussions. Perhaps start a thread in the Welcome area introducing your system and taste in music to our members? Some pictures, if available, posted of your system in the Gallery would also be great! :cool:

Marco.

[technobear]

Hi Chris
Do you know what amplification they were using with the Essences?

Cheers

Vacuum State DPA-300B monoblocks ( http://www.vacuumstate.com/ )

I don't recall what the pre-amp was but 'they' is Simon Matanle of Musicology. Drop him a line. He's a nice chap. ( http://www.musicology.co.uk/email-us/ )

[technobear]

Stop press! Found itfrom a photo. It was an Atma-Sphere MP-3 :)

http://www.atma-sphere.com/products/mp3.html

[REM]

Hello again Chris.

Many thanks for the info. The reason I asked was I have just (last week) received my Essences, after ordering them in early July! What a fantastic speaker the Essence is, you really do question all preconceived notions of what hifi is about (or at least that's what I'm going through ATM and rather enjoying the whole experience, I should add).
Given that I'm looking to change my amps next so was wondering what the Zus were demoed with, shame the Atma-Sphere/DPA-300b look way beyond budget, should have known really, so the search goes on.
Perhaps we should start a Zu Alliance and show all these Tannoy fanbois round here what a proper speaker can do:lol:

Cheers

[technobear]

Perhaps we should start a Zu Alliance and show all these Tannoy fanbois round here what a proper speaker can do:lol:

That's fighting talk! :lol:

Tannoys have their merits. I like quite a few speakers in the Tannoy range.

I'm driving my Zu's with a breathed-upon Croft Syntegra :smoking:

[Steve Toy]

I really enjoyed the Show.

My thoughts were (in no particular order) ...

Eminent Technology ribbon hybrids. I've wanted to hear these for ages and they are now being imported into the UK - Really fine at £3k.


You've commented on the speakers but what about the system as a whole?



The UKD room with ginormous £20k Unison/Opera speakers. Didn't sound 'big' at all - just natural powered by the UR S9 amp in Guy's photo. Nice.


Ditto although you've at least mentioned the amplifier. :)



The big Maggies (3.6) were pretty good, but after a minute or two a bass colouration came evident that sounded exactly like someone thumping a taut plastic film. Funny that. No, I couldn't live with it. Good on small scale music though where the panel wasn't being stressed.


Was the bass coloration necessarily the fault of the speakers?



The Cabasse speakers in the Coherent room were OK, if a little lacking in midrange rez. £6k, though? :scratch:


Coherent assemble whole systems. Why comment on only the speakers?


The BIG Cabasse at £108k were better - as they should be - with astonishing bass depth and control. Kodo drummers were impressive, but do folks really listen to this stuff? What about music? :mental:

Ditto.



The Quad stats sounded like Quad stats. Kind of bland - not for me - been there, done that - life's too short for boring hifi!!


Ditto. Were the speakers boring or was it the system?



Those big Gamut speakers in Guy's photos were sure interesting. Simply stunningly natural mids - a real jaw dropper - but, oh, that zingy tweeter! :doh: Vocal sibilance was unpleasantly pronounced. Not for me. Stick a decent tweeter on them and they would be world class, imho.


What about phase coherence? Gamut systems excell at this but it may suffer by just sticking in another tweeter. The vocal sibilance could be attributed to any number of things but for Jerry it has to be the bloody speakers again!



First time ever I really quite enjoyed Triangle speakers - Magellan Cello. The bass was 'impressive' in a hifi sort of way, but the mids and top were really very good.


Yawn! I'm sorry Jerry but I'm beginning to see why you are constantly swapping speakers and amps and the endless dissatisfaction behind these constant box-swaps. You may enjoy it but would it not be nice to come off the merry-go-round at some point?



Aurousal speakers - a bit upfront and hyped for me. Lots of bouncy enthusiasm though and very good vfm if you like that sort of thing.


I'm losing the will to live. :wah:



The Audiofreaks room was quite good. At last an Avalon speaker that wasn't totally bland. Whatever new model they were demoing had a quite perky upper mid and treble. Shame about the rest which was the usual Avalon blandness. Look at all the money I'm saving by not liking them! ;)



Avalon speakers will just tell you exactly what is going on behind them. They are really good like that and I'm quite a fan for that very reason.



Kudos new £1.2k speakers were fun. Bouncy and very alive - a Flat Earth sound I suspect, with mids a bit thinned out tonally maybe. Interesting and worth more of a listen.

Zzzzzzzz.....



Lovington horns. Nope, I just don't get on with these. Heard them before. Typical single paper driver thin grainy mids. Not for me.



Zzzzzz.....



The ART loudspeakers in the Marantz dem with Ken Ishiwata were interesting. Very alive, dynamic and open - I suspect a hyped up tweeter, but very impressive in a short dem.


"


Nice sounds emanating from Aspara horns and Pure Sound amps. The room was too big, but still a nice musical sound.
__

We might be getting somehere now but Guy's excellent front end (SP10) in conjunction with the whole system might have had something to do with it.



Yup, a fun Show - and well worth a 4 hour round car trip - I look forward to next year's - and of course the Scalford Show in March. :)


Hopefully next time you'll look beyond the thingies from which the noise comes out. :eyebrows:

__________________
Jerry


Classical music fan and un-repentant box-swapper .... & Tannoy non-fanboy.


Rhythms can be fun but it is down to personal taste, I know.

The box-swapping stems (amps and speakers) from dissatisfaction and not getting systems to work as a whole, imho.

Is "Tannoy non-fanboy" in your sig some kind of coping strategy? ;)

Tannoys can be made to work btw. Here's how... [contd on P94]

[Steve Toy]

I've banned Joe for a week. I deleted a post and he stuck it right back up again. Neil then deleted it again. This is obviously quite tiresome for all of us so a week in the sin bin should give time to reflect...

As for Jerry I did not mean to offend but I've kinda used his review to highlight why some folks in this hobby seem to go round in circles.

We all have our comfort zones but escaping from them is what can move is forward (imho). Focussing on speakers is an example of why we often fail to get at the root of a particular cause for dissatisfaction.

The speakers are messengers - they tell us what is going on with the rest of our kit. They may also tell us what is wrong with the room. The very best speakers are often the ones that deliver the worst news...

I've heard a few speakers that I previously found myself hating perform brilliantly once the rest of the system was sorted to the extent that they then outperformed other speakers I may have otherwise prefered.

Shooting the messenger is thus not usually the best idea.

Conversely, folks who are not into hi-fi who've heard my system and been mightily impressed have usually commented on the speakers. I've suggested to them that it is what is behind them that gives them the music they have clearly enjoyed. Now, my system isn't perfect by any means, it can sound a little raw sometimes but it does communicate the musical message very succinctly. I look to my front end for that extra refinement in the form of an off-board DAC with a robust enough signal to enter my preamp.

This is my take and I sincerely hope Jerry does not take any offence at my rather direct approach above. It really isn't personal but his post above reviewing the recent national show was too good an opportunity for me to miss to highlight why some folks are never going to be satisfied with their systems and want to play music on them very much as they are.

OK, we are all for upgrading but this is usually done for two reasons:

1) the system is broken and we want to fix it. We can get to the root cause or go round in circles on this.

2) The system is pretty sorted but nothing is ever perfect. The user now knows exactly what s/he wants and is actually succeeding in getting it but wants even more of the same. This is where I am.

[Will]

Be cool he's not rewriting the Bible as you say its a Hobby.

.

[Darren Hatcher]

Whittlebury show was a first. First time I had to lug all the crap up and down the endless corridors of confusion. (who designed the layout?) First time I have been told an album was "over produced" I couldn't tell as I was not at the studio when it was recorded. First time somebody lit a BBQ under my window. First time I had to, and I mean had to, listen to other peoples music. First time I heard three different systems plus my own,all from the comfort of my own room. First time someone told me that the room was a welcome rest from the chaos in the hallway? Thanks for the first online review.

[Spectral Morn]

Whittlebury show was a first. First time I had to lug all the crap up and down the endless corridors of confusion. (who designed the layout?) First time I have been told an album was "over produced" I couldn't tell as I was not at the studio when it was recorded. First time somebody lit a BBQ under my window. First time I had to, and I mean had to, listen to other peoples music. First time I heard three different systems plus my own,all from the comfort of my own room. First time someone told me that the room was a welcome rest from the chaos in the hallway? Thanks for the first online review.

Hi Darren

See my comments and questions in your thread/post in the welcome section.

But for clarification on this thread...who are you ? i.e what dealer/product do you make or distribute. Some may know, but I don't so others probably wont either. Its...just nice to know who you are talking to/with.


Regards D S D L

[Marco]

Hi Neil,

Darren represents Eminent Technology. Welcome to the forum, Darren :)

Would you like us to open a trade account for you?

Marco.

[Spectral Morn]

Hi Neil,

Darren represents Eminent Technology. Welcome to the forum, Darren :)

Would you like us to open a trade account for you?

Marco.

Ahh, nice, very nice. I used to have an ET mk3 linear arm. Darren any chance they might make that arm again ? It was a good one, and I should not have sold it.:doh:



Regards D S D L

[Spectral Morn]

After having a read of a few threads I was reminded to check if something promised had happened or not....not as it turns out.



MARCO WHERE IS THE OFT PROMISED WRITE UP ON THE SHOW ????? at this rate it will be next years show you write about.;):(:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

Come on finish it and publish it...I for one (pretty sure others are interested too)want to read about what you thought of it.


Regards D S D L

[Alex_UK]

Funny, I thought about this too last night...

BUMP! ;)

[Marco]

Gosh, it's great to be popular eh? :lol:

I have a challenge in terms of my laptop being away for repair at the moment (and with 70% of my write-up stored on it), so I'm currently using my wife's laptop until the other one comes back...

I'm told that it's imminent, but that was the same last week (don't ask)! :steam:

When my laptop is back, I'll finish the review and post it - promise :)

If I don't, feel free to shoot me! :guns:

:eyebrows:

Marco.

[Steve Toy]

bump

[Alex_UK]

Now if you hadn't been using your laptop to look at all that naughty stuff it wouldn't have screwed up in the first place, would it? :eyebrows:

Bump! :D

[Marco]

LOL - ahem... It's having a new screen put on it. And no, not one with windscreen wipers fitted! :eyebrows:

Marco.

[DSJR]

Oh I don't know, after all the drooling that goes on, I suspect the replacement will need wipers... :lol: :D :

[pure sound]

There's also Marco's Manchester show coverage to look forward to. Some of us didn't get the chance to look round!

[Marco]

I think I'll give up being an art dealer/picture framer and become a full-time reviewer ;)

Guy, have you recovered yet from being battered around the ears by my Tannoys? I really enjoyed our session. Steve (Aquapiranha) is the next victim tonight :eyebrows:

Marco.

[pure sound]

Just about! they are great fun though. They do put many modern speakers to shame. I wish I'd brought a couple of Decca classical LP's in from the car given that they were what many were monitored with. Still it was very entertaining listening to some of those energetic 50's 60's 'pop' recordings.


It does beg the question, why speakers or indeed recordings like those aren't still made.


Did you try the cd I left yet?

[Marco]

Glad you enjoyed yourself :)

Yeah, I honestly wouldn't swap the Lockwoods for anything modern - not even the huge Cabasse La Sphère or the Asparas I heard at Whittlebury Hall, superb as they both were!

I've got my Tannoys singing nicely now - the new crossovers and VDH internal wiring have paid off big time... I can't stress enough to anyone who's running vintage Tannoys to put the original crossovers to one side and build new ones using the best modern components (caps, resistors and inductors) - the difference in performance is HUGE!

Yes I agree with you about the 50s/60s pop recordings we played. The best ones (mostly on the Capitol label) have a beautifully natural tone all of their own, and an incredible depth and clarity that sadly simply isn't there on modern vinyl pressings, even the best ones - and as for CD, forget it.

I've listened to the CD you left and it does sound excellent (another shining example of the benefits of simple recording techniques), even though some of the music isn't entirely to my taste :smoking:

Marco.

[pure sound]

LOL. No its not really my thing either, most of it. But it's nice to get the opportunity to learn about recording real performances in a natural acoustic.

A sample for anyone interested. Straight from the microphones onto a CDR.
Recorded in a church in Portishead, in front of an audience of about 200 people.

http://www.mediafire.com/?eejwyuja31b

[DSJR]

I'll download that one in a minute. HELP - I can't download it..............

My mastering engineer friend used to regularly record the then local Ealing Youth Orchestra on his B77 with crossed-pair Calrecs and the results were always superb, if not "professional."

Some of the better 1950's contemporary recordings were superb, as the musicians just laid the tracks down and if they got it wrong, they did another take. The early Presley and Buddy Holly recordings were very good and there are far too many jazz recordings from the 50's that sound great on both LP and the carefully mastered CD issues (Ella & Louis' recordings from the early 50's are superb).

[jandl100]

As for Jerry I did not mean to offend but I've kinda used his review to highlight why some folks in this hobby seem to go round in circles.

We all have our comfort zones but escaping from them is what can move is forward (imho).

This is my take and I sincerely hope Jerry does not take any offence at my rather direct approach above.

Well, f*ck me. I've only just seen Mr Toy's little tirade. :mental:

I certainly don't need lectures from you, Mr Toy, about how I should enjoy my hobby. :steam: And yes, I know a lot about putting things together to make a working and enjoyable system.

I just like to try different things. It does not mean I'm not satisfied. You have a problem with that? There are some folks who really don't understand the fun and interest in changing things around. So it's not for you? OK - that really is fine by me.

At the end of the day, I always enjoy the music I play. As far as I am concerned, that's what it's all about.

We can't all be alike. Live and let live, eh?

[Marco]

Yes I think Steve got a little, err, 'carried away' there... :doh:

Don't take it to heart, Jerry!

Marco.

[Joe]

It was a weird line to take, anyway. Surely if you're hearing a system, you are essentially hearing the speakers, no matter what else is further 'upstream' in the system.

[Steve Toy]

It was a weird line to take, anyway. Surely if you're hearing a system, you are essentially hearing the speakers, no matter what else is further 'upstream' in the system.


There is a certain logic to it and it goes thus:

System sounds rather unpleasantly strident with a boomy upper bass and bright treble. Joe and Jerry decide to investigate. They move closely first to the CD player and cup their hands around their ears couple of inches away from the CD drawer. Whirring and chafing noises aside, the unpleasant noise heard in the room isn't coming from here.

Next they try the preamp and both observe that it is completely silent. The power amp too does not seem to yield the unpleasantness although pressing the ear directly against the casework does enable them to hear a touch of transformer hum.

Perhaps it's the cables. Lying down on the floor they can really feel the vibrations but the cables are silent. It's definitely not them. Then they try the interconnects. Joe loses his balance as he contorts himself to place his ear close to the wires linking the CD player to the pre and promptly lands on the floor banging his head on the front of the rack on his way down. The CD player skips before resuming the programme of cacophony.

At this point Jerry exclaims,

"It's the speakers. The 'orrible noise! It's coming from the speakers!"

Joe finds his feet, rubs the lump starting to form on his forehead and moves closer to the other speaker.

"You're right Jerry, it's definitely the speakers!"

So there we have it. The nasty noise comes out of the speakers so the speakers must therefore be the culprits.

Note to self: don't ever be the bearer of bad tidings to either Jerry or Joe for they will surely shoot me.

[Joe]

So how, in the context of a hifi show, do you decide where the fault lies if the sound isn't to your liking? It's not like you can switch stuff around, is it?

And in my experience, speakers contribute far more than any other component to the overall sound of a system.

[Steve Toy]

Jerry. If you genuinely enjoy frequent amp and speaker swaps that's fine. I was a bit concerned that you place too much blame on the speakers when things don't sound right that's all. You could look elsewhere.

Your comment on Tannoys in your signature in itself speaks volumes...

[Steve Toy]

And in my experience, speakers contribute far more than any other component to the overall sound of a system.


In terms of sound, yes. In terms of reproducing the music, no.

[Marco]

Happy 1500th post :)

Marco.

[Steve Toy]

Thanks Marco.


So how, in the context of a hifi show, do you decide where the fault lies if the sound isn't to your liking? It's not like you can switch stuff around, is it?


I agree it is difficult but this does not mean that one should make assumptions about the speakers.

[Joe]

In terms of sound, yes. In terms of reproducing the music, no.

The two are inseparable.

[Steve Toy]

It's a presentation versus communication thing. The very best speakers will sound awful if the system behind them is not set up properly or is a hierarchical and/or synergistical mismatch.

I think you and Jerry may be guilty of shooting the messenger and as such may well reject some very capable speakers. In Jerry's case, Avalons and Tannoys, both of which tend to major on phase coherence.

[Joe]

It's a presentation versus communication thing. The very best speakers will sound awful if the system behind them is not set up properly or is a hierarchical and/or synergistical mismatch.

I think you and Jerry may be guilty of shooting the messenger and as such may well reject some very capable speakers. In Jerry's case, Avalons and Tannoys, both of which tend to major on phase coherence.

Jerry and I are coming from entirely different places. Jerry is a self-confessed box-swapper; I rarely change components. But my experience (I obviously can't speak for Jerry) is that source and electronics have much less effect on overall system sound than speakers do.

[Marco]

Joe,

Unfortunately I don't have time at the moment to go into this discussion in detail, but you're missing Steve's point - although I can also see yours :)

It's to do with differentiating between the sound a hi-fi system makes, on one hand, and on the other, its intrinsic musical capabilities - i.e. how successfully the emotive element in music is conveyed/communicated to the listener, which in my experience is more determined by the quality of the electronics upstream than by the speakers at the end of the chain.

I'm sure that Steve will expand further on this, as will I later if necessary.

Marco.

[Joe]

Joe,

Unfortunately I don't have time at the moment to go into this discussion in detail, but you're missing Steve's point - although I can also see yours :)

It's to do with differentiating between the sound a hi-fi system makes, on one hand, and on the other, its intrinsic musical capabilities - i.e. how successfully the emotive element in music is conveyed/communicated to the listener, which in my experience is more determined by the quality of the electronics upstream than by the speakers at the end of the chain.

I don't see how one can separate the sound a system makes from its musical capabilities. Music is only sound, when all's said and done; it's not possible to appreciate music other than by listening to it.

I think 'musicality' in a hifi context is a red herring; the emotive element in music can be appreciated via a cheap transistor radio or MP3 player. It's either there in the music or it isn't, and the best hifi in the world won't make it any more emotive.

[Marco]

Joe,

You're not necessarily 'wrong'. But, quite simply, if subtleties in the recording are missed or glossed over by the electronics upstream, then they can't be recreated by the speakers, and so part of the emotive element in the music is lost as a result.

These musical subtleties are what separate the way a high fidelity system treats music compared to a cheap transistor radio - it's partly why we're all running the types of systems we do here, otherwise why bother?

This subject has been dealt with many times before on forums but it's quite complicated and difficult to explain in words. In my view though, many people focus far too much on what speakers do, and not enough on the electronics and source components upstream (and optimal set-up of them thereof).

It's no coincidence I feel that every truly great hi-fi system I've heard was fronted by a top-notch source and amplifier as well as having a great pair of speakers at the end of the chain. I've never heard a truly excellent system where the source and control components were not as talented as the speakers. Systems where the importance of the speakers has been prioritised ahead of everything else for me sound at best mediocre, and definitely not what I would consider as truly musical.

Discount the importance of the 'messenger', or focus too much on the 'receiver', at your peril.

Marco.

[Joe]

Joe,

You're not 'wrong'.

No; I'm 'right';)

[Marco]

LOL - aye! :eyebrows:

Marco.

[Themis]

Two people watching at the same tree one from the north, the other from the south... who has a better view of it ? :eyebrows:

[The Grand Wazoo]

Two people watching at the same tree one from the north, the other from the south... who has a better view of it ? :eyebrows:

That all depends which way the tree is falling!

[Themis]

That all depends which way the tree is falling!
I hope it won't fall on my speakers... :lolsign:

[jandl100]

Two people watching at the same tree one from the north, the other from the south... who has a better view of it ? :eyebrows:

Aha! And this is the key, for me.

The person who has the best view of the tree is the one who takes the time to look at it from the north, south, east and west and other directions, too. As well as different elevations.

That's the person who is willing to take different views of a particular phenomenon - be it a tree or reproduced music.

A box swapper can do exactly that. I have often posted that box swapping allows me to get different perspectives on the music. That's what I do it for (well, OK, I do like getting new toys as well :carrot:).

Sticking with the same kit for a long while is like being stuck in the same rut - that is, the same view of the aforementioned tree - OK, you might well enjoy that particular view, but it is giving you a necessarily limited view into the music, imo.
Perhaps you should, like Marco and I guess Steve, hone a particular system to perfection. Maybe so, but for me that harks back to another recent thread here - the pointless pursuit of Audio Nirvana. In my view, I get more insight into the music by changing components (no, not just speakers, Steve ;)) than by fiddling around with a particular setup.

[Themis]

Nice explanation Jerry. I'm a bit like that, too, but I also understand these who manage to "settle" their setup.

Finally, each one pursues a slightly different target, or, if you prefer, we're not all looking at the same "tree". I find that all these different views and approaches of the same passion are complimentary and equally enriching.
Imho, exchanging views of the different ways of seeing things is equally important as getting different perspectives of the same target. So, in the end, "equipment swapping" and "mucic love" are two parts of the same equation : it's the perpetual human research of equilibrium.

[jandl100]

Nice explanation Jerry.

Thanks Dimitri. :)

It seems that everyone else has been stunned into silence by the insight and persuasiveness of my arguments in favour of the rightness of box swapping! :lol:

[Joe]

It seems that everyone else has been stunned into silence by the insight and persuasiveness of my arguments in favour of the rightness of box swapping! :lol:

I'm sure box-swapping is the way to go, but in my case a combination of laziness, being easily pleased and hopeless at haggling means it's a non-starter. You could count the number of pairs of speakers I've owned on the fingers of one hand!

[Themis]

It seems that everyone else has been stunned into silence by the insight and persuasiveness of my arguments in favour of the rightness of box swapping! :lol:
No, they simply moved to another thread : http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=4312 :lolsign:

[jandl100]

You could count the number of pairs of speakers I've owned on the fingers of one hand!

Yeah, well tbh I'm the same really.

I think this is a fairly complete list of the speakers I've had, in approximate order of acquisition. Pretty skimpy in terms of numbers really ... :scratch:, But I try, I try ....


Technics SB301 - my first 'hifi' speaker. I've still got a soft spot for Technics speakers!
Shackman Dynastat - stat hybrids. Hmmm .... I got ripped off here I think. But I was young and foolish. (I'm now older).
Quad 63 - quite boring really, but I didn't realise this until I heard ....
ProAc Response 2 (they ate the Quad 63s for breakfast)
ProAc Response 3 - bigger & bolder (but not better) than the 2's
Electrostatic Research Vista II stat hybrids - superb, really. The wife reckons these are the best I have had.
Martin Logan CLS2z - full range stats. Legendary reputation well deserved.
Apogee Caliper Signature - a bit coloured but good fun. A pig to drive, though, needed a Krell KAV250 at 330WPC.
AvantGarde Unos - horn hybrids. Kept these 5 years. Yummy.
Acoustic Energy AE1 - OK, not especially good at anything though.
Rogers LS3/5a - with a REL Quake sub, very good indeed with surprising dynamic scale.
Audiostatic DCI Wings - full range stats. Poor bass which rolled off from the mids! - otherwise superb in many ways.
QLN Sigs - urk. Used them for about 2 hours. Dull, dull, dull.
Technics SB-M300Mk2 - 'high end' 3-way stand mounts with rear passive bass radiator. A bit weird but not bad.
Kharma Ceramique 3 - Nice. Kept them for 2 years.
JBL L110 - vintage classics that put the fun back into music. Surprisingly good.
Epos ES30 - surprisingly good - I really quite enjoyed these!
Dali Skyline 1000 - ribbon hybrids, 30 inch ribbon, 12 inch open baffle woofer. :-D
Klipsch Heresy II - awful, really. Coloured & plummy & just plain wrong.
Apogee Centaur Minor - ribbon hybrid - couldn't get on with these. Too light, not enough gravitas.
Cabasse Io - small 6 inch spheres with co-axial drivers. Bit bland.
JBL Ti2K - standmounts - punchy and fun - have only just removed these from my 2nd system.
Maggie smga - couldn't throw a decent image to save their lives. Low-rez, too.
Thiel CS2.3 - fast, detailed, exciting - I liked these!
Yamaha NS1000M - a bit coloured, lack top end air, poor imaging. Good really, to be fair, but not for me.
Rogers Export Monitor - neutral and cumfy .... too cumfy!
Spendor SP1/2 - superbly neutral but dynamically a bit boring.
Rega Jura - stonkingly good fun - even better when you stack two pairs
Celef PE1 - pretty good - sort of a 'poor man's ProAc Response 2
Jim Rogers JR149 - good fun. Dynamic, neutral & interesting.
Jim Rogers JR150 - even better than the 149. Quite excellent really.
ProAc Future Point Five - somewhat diffuse imaging, otherwise fairly wonderful
Quad 57s - shows the 63s a thing or two about presence and palpability - especially good with valves. An understandable classic.
Bowers Actives Ones - superb BBC monitor sound with balls
Accuton Collette - ceramic drivered mini standmount. Exquisite - jaw-dropping bass for (very) small speaker.
SD Acoustics SD1 - ribbon hybrids. Really good, I loved these.
Audio Physic Virgo II - great all rounders
Martin Logan CLS2z - excellent full range stats, 2nd time I owned these!
Leema Xavier - possibly my all time fave 'conventional' box speaker
Infinity Reference Standard 2.5 ribbon hybrids - still have and love these - my current faves

:eyebrows:

[Joe]

Blimey!

In about 35 years I've had:

Some tiny speakers that came with a Rotel system. Utter rubbish

Goodman's RB35s. Too big 'n boomy for the room they were used in, but lots of bass!

Mordaunt Short MS20s. Excellent, and still used in upstairs system

Castle Chesters. Should have got rid of these sooner than I did. Dull, plodding, no bass. Beautiful cabinets though.

Audiovector Mi3 Signatures. My main speakers. Do all the right things.

[Marco]

It seems that everyone else has been stunned into silence by the insight and persuasiveness of my arguments in favour of the rightness of box swapping! :lol:

LOL... It's your money, matey, so you're entitled to do what you want with it. You obviously enjoy what you do, so where's the harm? :)

I'm with Joe, on the laziness front. Quite frankly, on a personal level, I can think of few things in life as joyless as packing and unpacking boxes of 'things' (often awkward and heavy things, too), waiting around for stuff to be delivered or uplifted, and the potential for nightmares this entails in terms of damage - I detest this sort of thing with a passion.

It's one of the reasons why when I've got some equipment for sale I usually trade it in at a dealer (for something else I'm buying), even though it means losing money, just to save the hassle of selling things privately! I did this most recently with my Spendors when I bought the Lockwoods from Chris at Big Ears Audio.

I even hate moving my gear around when taking it to bake-offs, etc. I just can't stand the plugging and unplugging and the general upheaval of it all.

So........... For those reasons alone I'll never be a serial box swapper, regardless of whatever benefits it may have.

Good luck to you though, Jerry. I think you've got it down to a fine art! :cool:

Marco.

P.S Just one point, and it's not a criticism, but it was interesting when Steve highlighted in your show report that (seemingly unconciously) you had concentrated mainly on the sound of the various speakers you heard - certainly more so than the electronics. I wonder why they seemed to stick in your mind more?

[jandl100]

P.S Just one point, and it's not a criticism, but it was interesting when Steve highlighted in your show report that (seemingly unconciously) you had concentrated mainly on the sound of the various speakers you heard - certainly more so than the electronics. I wonder why they seemed to stick in your mind more?

An interesting point - and rather more politely presented, if I may say so, than Mr Toy's 'ave-a-bash-at-Jerry sesh. ;)

I guess my reasoning is as follows -

In a limited-time demonstration (as at a Show, or even at a dealer's 1 hour or so demo session) imho by far the most dominant consideration are the speakers and the room acoustics.

At home, relaxing to your fave tunes in a familiar environment other factors become just as, sometimes more, important. Such factors can include source and amp and cabling. But I think such factors are subtle (if musically essential) and therefore secondary in a brief Show demo.

If you are daft/curious enough to follow my crazed box swapping adventures you will note that I change amp/source equipment probably more often than I do speakers. (Just look at my new amp/speaker thread in the Gallery section). So, in practise for home use and in a context where musical subtleties and musical insight become dominant - i.e. where I am listening thru hifi to obtain musical satisfaction - I seem to believe in the equal importance of all equipment.

But, as I say, at Shows in a strange environment and in brief auditions, I think it's the speakers that dominate. Hence, my Show reports tend to lead with those.

There you go - how's that for an explanation? :scratch: :)

[jandl100]

LOL... It's your money, matey, so you're entitled to do what you want with it. You obviously enjoy what you do, so where's the harm? :)

Well ... I was expecting some comments / other points of view on my extension of Dimitri's "best view of tree" analogy to hifi box swapping.

[The Grand Wazoo]

Well ... I was expecting some comments / other points of view on my extension of Dimitri's "best view of tree" analogy to hifi box swapping.

I thought you put your point across very well & didn't feel able to add anything of value! But then I guess I secretly wish I could take your approach with a second system............

[Themis]

Technics SB301 - my first 'hifi' speaker. I've still got a soft spot for Technics speakers!

...

Infinity Reference Standard 2.5 ribbon hybrids - still have and love these - my current faves

:eyebrows:
What a enoooormous list !!! :)

*looking frenetically into bank account balance for financing ability of divorce fees*

*cough,cough*
I'm married, I can't do that... ;)

[Barry]

I thought you put your point across very well & didn't feel able to add anything of value! But then I guess I secretly wish I could take your approach with a second system............

I would concur, although I don't think I would ever go as far as Jerry! The furthest I had gone down that route has been trying out a dozen or so cartridges. Also, I simply don't have a sufficiently good aural memory to be able to remember the pros and cons of various items of gear I have used.

Regards

[Marco]

Hi Jerry,


An interesting point - and rather more politely presented, if I may say so, than Mr Toy's 'ave-a-bash-at-Jerry sesh. ;)

I guess my reasoning is as follows -

In a limited-time demonstration (as at a Show, or even at a dealer's 1 hour or so demo session) imho by far the most dominant consideration are the speakers and the room acoustics.

At home, relaxing to your fave tunes in a familiar environment other factors become just as, sometimes more, important. Such factors can include source and amp and cabling. But I think such factors are subtle (if musically essential) and therefore secondary in a brief Show demo.

If you are daft/curious enough to follow my crazed box swapping adventures you will note that I change amp/source equipment probably more often than I do speakers. (Just look at my new amp/speaker thread in the Gallery section). So, in practise for home use and in a context where musical subtleties and musical insight become dominant - i.e. where I am listening thru hifi to obtain musical satisfaction - I seem to believe in the equal importance of all equipment.

But, as I say, at Shows in a strange environment and in brief auditions, I think it's the speakers that dominate. Hence, my Show reports tend to lead with those.

There you go - how's that for an explanation?

Seems fine to me (and obviously honest), although it's rather different to how I review systems (that's the key word) I hear at shows - you'll find out when I get round to doing the one that's been due here, erm, for 'a little while'! :lol:


Sticking with the same kit for a long while is like being stuck in the same rut - that is, the same view of the aforementioned tree - OK, you might well enjoy that particular view, but it is giving you a necessarily limited view into the music, imo.


That's an interesting way of looking at things. However if you believe, having enjoyed many other views in your years of 'travelling the world' (as it were), that the view from your current tree is the clearest and most spectacular you've ever seen, why move? ;)

Marco.

[Spectral Morn]

I understand Jerry's approach. When in the trade I took everything interesting home to try and not just for the night...all weekend and sometimes for a week. It was this that has allowed me to end up with the system I have now...and also to offer indepth advice on how things sounded and worked and with what. I was blessed to be able to do this for free and not have to buy lots of kit to try instead. However I understand Jerry's thrill at trying new stuff out.

However I do have quite a few odds and ends collected over the years, and it is fun to change things round radically (every so often) just to see what does what. Some times that combination from a few years ago is better than what you though. I only get rid of stuff when I am 100% sure there is no future value in holding onto it.

For me notable miss matches/wrong ones were the Pathos Logos (baby brother Classic one mk2 eats it for breakfast), T&A V10 integrated amplifier beautiful looking, but veiled sound and noisy fan mean't it had to go...thats about it.

I feel quite often that its possible to jump to a conclusion to quickly and miss a brilliant combination.

I do view this as a journey, its just I am in the slow lane and Jerry's in the fast.


Regards D S D L

[Joe]

However if you believe, having enjoyed many other views in your years of 'travelling the world' (as it were), that the view from your current tree is the clearest and most spectacular you've ever seen, why move? ;)

Marco.

Because there's always the possibility of an even clearer, more spectacular view from another tree?

Plenty of times I've read people on forums saying 'this is it, the bee's knees, nothing could possibly be better' - usually followed some months later by yet another 'best ever' purchase. You could call it the unceasing search for perfection, or OCD.

[Marco]

Because there's always the possibility of an even clearer, more spectacular view from another tree?



And there's always the possibility that there might not be, too ;)

Almost everything in life is a compromise - a hi-fi system is no exception. My view is choose your compromises and learn to live with them, then relax and simply enjoy the 'spectacular view from your chosen tree', concentrating instead on the joys of appreciating that view, through creating a constantly growing and evolving music collection, than seeking to obtain a 'better' view of things and risk losing focus on what's most important :smoking:

Marco.

[Joe]

And there's always the possibility that there might not be, too ;)

Almost everything in life is a compromise - a hi-fi system is no exception. My view is choose your compromises and learn to live with them, then relax and simply enjoy the 'spectacular view from your chosen tree', concentrating instead on the joys of appreciating that view, through creating a constantly growing and evolving music collection, than seeking to obtain a 'better' view of things and risk losing focus on what's most important :smoking:

Marco.

That's my view too, reinforced by the need to keep expenditure at sensible levels, having two children to clothe, feed, and educate.

I've reached a level of hifi where, unless I spend very big, I'm unlikely to achieve significant improvements, and changing stuff around is not enjoyable for me. And if I get bored, there's always the possibility of swapping components between the upstairs and downstairs systems!

[Barry]

And there's always the possibility that there might not be, too ;)

Almost everything in life is a compromise - a hi-fi system is no exception. My view is choose your compromises and learn to live with them, then relax and simply enjoy the 'spectacular view from your chosen tree', concentrating instead on the joys of appreciating that view, through creating a constantly growing and evolving music collection, than seeking to obtain a 'better' view of things and risk losing focus on what's most important :smoking:

Marco.

And that Marco, neatly, succinctly and eruditely, expresses my approach to it all!

Cheers

[jandl100]

Nah - maybe I have a limited attention span. :) After a while I just want a change in presentation - my "3rd Law of Hifi" is that 'different' can be just as musically rewarding as 'better'.

My 2nd Law of Hifi, is that there is always something better or at least interestingly different ... and that can be at the same price level, or lower, or higher - I don't feel that there is a particularly strong relationship between ££ spent and musical satisfaction.


However if you believe, having enjoyed many other views in your years of 'travelling the world' (as it were), that the view from your current tree is the clearest and most spectacular you've ever seen, why move? ;)

Marco.

.... I remember, Marco, when you were totally devoted to your old Spendors .... then you had a 'Tannoy Moment' - a very different presentational style had captured your interest and byebye Spendies! You have a lot in common with me, I reckon, you just operate on a different timescale. :eyebrows:

[Marco]

.... I remember, Marco, when you were totally devoted to your old Spendors .... then you had a 'Tannoy Moment' - a very different presentational style had captured your interest and byebye Spendies! You have a lot in common with me, I reckon, you just operate on a different timescale :eyebrows:


LOL - Indeed! I change my speakers every seven years (the length of the time I had the Spendies for), and you change yours every seven months (only kidding!) :lol:

TBH, Jerry, when you hear what a proper big pair of vintage Tannoys, or the likes of Ian Walker's Canterburys, do (not the stuff you've heard, which doesn't really appeal to me either), almost everyone would have a "Tannoy moment", simply because the way that they reproduce music is so gob-smackingly believable and real that it renders almost all speakers made today as toys in comparison - I kid you not! The Lockwood Majors, updated with high quality modern crossovers, are truly exceptional in every sense of the word.

If you're coming to the pie show at Scalford Hall in March, pop along to our room with some of your favourite classical CDs and you'll find out for yourself ;)

Marco.

[jandl100]

LOL - Indeed! I change my speakers every seven years (the length of the time I had the Spendies for), and you change yours every seven months (only kidding!) :lol:

Actually, if I keep speakers 7 months or more, I really like them. :)


TBH, Jerry, when you hear what a proper big pair of vintage Tannoys, or the likes of Ian Walker's Canterburys do (not the stuff you've heard, which doesn't really appeal to me either), almost everyone would have a "Tannoy moment", simply because the way that they reproduce music is so gob-smackingly believable and real that it renders almost all speakers made today as toys in comparison - I kid you not!

Maybe so.


.................................. {:mental:}

:lol:


Seriously, though, I don't doubt your genuine enthusiasm for your particular implementation of Tannoys, and I am sure that they are exceptionally good in many ways.

But I really don't think there is a 'best' speaker that does it all for all kinds of music. There are certainly many fine ones - I know, happily I've owned a few. We all tend to rave about our current faves. Then something else comes along and the old faves turn into yesterday's news ....

I used to wind you up a little by saying that your old Spendies would probably be a bit laid back and boring for me - a view fervently denied by you at the time :lolsign: ... but is that the way that you might describe them now, having had your Tannoy Moment?

There are many different perspectives into the music provided by different flavours of audio playback. The Spendies provided one for you which you enjoyed for quite a while, and now the Tannoys provide another very different one, I suspect. Personally, I have no problem with that and indeed enjoy the phenomenon very much via my chosen box swapping route.



If you're coming to the pie show at Scalford Hall in March, pop along to our room with some of your favourite classical CDs and you'll find out for yourself ;)

Marco.

Yep, I look forward to that. Current plans are for me to supply the tt front end for someone else's exhibit, so hopefully I'll have more time to do the rounds.

[Marco]

LOL :eyebrows:

Good post, Jerry. I'll reply when I get a chance. Off now to do some work for a change!

Laters,
Marco.

[Marco]

Hi Jerry,


Seriously, though, I don't doubt your genuine enthusiasm for your particular implementation of Tannoys, and I am sure that they are exceptionally good in many ways.

But I really don't think there is a 'best' speaker that does it all for all kinds of music. There are certainly many fine ones - I know, happily I've owned a few. We all tend to rave about our current faves. Then something else comes along and the old faves turn into yesterday's news ....


I completely agree that there isn't a 'best' or 'perfect' speaker, but I honestly think that anyone hearing the Lockwoods, with really any type of music, would be hard pushed to find fault with them. To my ears, and others who've heard them so far, they just sound 'right'.

They do both the 'big speaker thing', and the 'small speaker thing' (when the music demands) and offer a crystal clear and uncoloured open window onto any recording, imposing little detactable signature of their own on the music... Music just 'appears' in a very unforced, convincing and natural way - that's it in a nutshell. I can't really put it any plainer than that. Basically there isn't really anything not to like, providing that you enjoy the music being played.

However, I'd certainly be very interested in your views when you have a listen yourself :)


I used to wind you up a little by saying that your old Spendies would probably be a bit laid back and boring for me - a view fervently denied by you at the time ... but is that the way that you might describe them now, having had your Tannoy Moment?


The old Spendies most definitely weren't laid back or boring - I can assure you of that. The SP100s probably sounded as different to the Spendors you've heard as much as the Lockwoods differ from the Tannoys you've heard! ;)

Comparing the Lockwoods to the Spendors is interesting. I wouldn't say that the Lockwoods make the Spendors sound laid back, but rather that they make them sound just like an 'impressive' pair of hi-fi speakers, and also quite small sounding (in a musical sense) in comparison. Guy Sergeant would be a good person to describe the difference, as he's heard them both in my system.

When listening to the Lockwoods there is little sense that the sound is emitting from a pair a speakers firing at you; instead they fill the room with a huge 'living and breathing' wall of sound, so that one completely forgets that they're there, and is simply engulfed in the drama and emotion of the musical performance. I know that this sort of thing is often said before about speakers, but you once you've heard the effect for yourself that these 15" Monitor Golds effortlessly reproduce, you'll know exactly what I mean.


There are many different perspectives into the music provided by different flavours of audio playback. The Spendies provided one for you which you enjoyed for quite a while, and now the Tannoys provide another very different one, I suspect. Personally, I have no problem with that and indeed enjoy the phenomenon very much via my chosen box swapping route.


Yep, no doubt. The point I'm making about the Lockwoods, though, is that they make almost every other quality loudspeakers I've heard seem just like an 'impressive' pair of loudspeakers, rather than designs which are genuinely able to recapture the musical event, if you see what I mean. Quite simply, one's previous benchmark and expectations as to what is possible from loudspeaker design requires re-evaluating once you've heard the Lockwoods. It makes you wonder just how much genuine real progress has been made in this area in the last 50-odd years!


Yep, I look forward to that. Current plans are for me to supply the tt front end for someone else's exhibit, so hopefully I'll have more time to do the rounds.


That's cool - I look forward to that. I'd like you to spend some time in our room getting acquainted to their sound, using music that's familiar to you, and also what I (and Steve) strive to achieve with a hi-fi system :cool:

Marco.

[pure sound]

I liked the Lockwoods alot. Far more than the Spendors which did nothing for me. I wouldn't quite say they were beyond reproach. I still think there's still some uneveness in the upper midrange from say just under 1kHz to maybe 4kHz & of course it's still evident that it's a vented bass system rather than a horn such as might be found in the GRF. The bass is less dynamic or energetic than the GRF's but it is arguably more even and probably more extended. But given those fairly mild caveats, its difficult to imagine a box of a similar size that does what they do any better. I listened to some active ATC 150's a few weeks ago which simply sucked the humanity out of anything played through them. The Tannoys on the other hand give the impression of real people making music & enjoying themselves. That makes them a precious & relatively rare thing imho.

It's also still surprising how well they work in what isn't a huge room, but it's something that often seems to happen with speakers using larger drivers.

[Marco]

Hi Guy,

Thanks for that.

I thought that I'd invite your comments since you've been round recently for a listen and would offer an honest appraisal :)

Like Jerry says (and I agree of course) nothing is perfect or indeed beyond reproach, and you've identified an issue which perhaps requires a little attention.

I'm not aware of the "upper midrange unevenness" you mention (thankfully, LOL!), but there is still a little mileage left in terms of further crossover modification. The current inductors being used are good, but can be bettered, so in that respect I have my eye on some rather nice Duelund air-core copper foils:

http://www.hificollective.co.uk/components/duelund_inductor_wax.html. It'll be interesting to hear what they bring to the party.

I think you're being a bit harsh on me old Spendies, though! :eyebrows:

I suspect that BBC designs aren't really to your taste, which you've more than hinted at before on a few occasions ;)


The Tannoys on the other hand give the impression of real people making music & enjoying themselves. That makes them a precious & relatively rare thing imho.


I know what you mean - that's precisely how I feel!

Marco.

[pure sound]

That slight uneveness may just be a 'Golds' thing. I think I've heard it on a couple of pairs of GRF's too. You'd probably need to have someone stick a microphone in front of them & see what they are actually doing. There's going to be output from both the comp driver and the 15" cone at those frequencies so it's always going to be hard to have them both behaving nicely, particularly the 15.

[Marco]

Could be, Guy. I don't doubt your observations, as you have much more experience of vintage Tannoys than I do.

The good thing is though I'm completely oblivious to what it is you're describing... Therefore, in this case, ignorance is bliss! :)

Marco.

[jandl100]

Uneveness toward the driver x-over freq limits is probably inevitable in a 2-way design, even more so with a 15 inch bass driver ....? You don't get summat for nowt. :) I wonder if I would hear that as the midrange grain/shout that I have always heard in Tannoy dual-concentrics?

[Marco]

Dunno, Jerry. There's definitely no "midrange grain/shout" that I can detect - certainly not what I would normally define as midrange grain/shout.

Perhaps Guy could expand a little on the "upper midrange unevenness" he referred to earlier so that we can both better understand what he meant by it? :)

This sort of stuff is notoriously quite difficult to put into words. I think it's important though not to blow it out of proportion, as in Guy's words the "unevenness" he reported is only "slight".

The Lockwoods are still by a country mile amongst the best speakers I have ever heard, and I've listened to a few tasty ones over the years!

Marco.

[jandl100]

Yep - I really look forward to hearing yours, Marco. Many Tannoys that I've heard do so much, so well - even to my ears! - it would be great to be able to enjoy the whole package. :)

But sometimes, tiny flaws can give rise to huge subjective problems - at the first HiPie Show some folks on the Wigwam forum "voted" I-Should-Coco's (Pete's) Tannoy-like system not only the best at Show, but also the very best sound that they had ever heard. Fair enough - but I literally could not stay in the same room as them. Sometimes subjective responses can vary wildly between different listeners. What's best for one person sometimes really can be worst for another. Live & let live! :cool:

[Marco]

Oh, definitely - I couldn't agree more! :)

It's interesting that you should mention Pete's system. Pete's a member here, so no doubt he'll offer some comment, but I have to be honest, when I heard his system at Scalford Hall I thought that it was ok but nothing special... I've no doubt that it sounds considerably better in its home environment, though.

For me, it wasn't a case that I couldn't stay in the same room as his Tannoys (I presume by this you meant that they sounded harsh?), but rather that the sound of the system for me in general was rather laid back and boring. It could've also been the music, which when I was in, was of the 'tinkly-tinkly' jazz variety (sorry, Pete!) - not that I don't like jazz, I do, but the more 'happening', lively, stuff is more to my taste.

It wasn't the source, as I know how good SP10s are, so it could've been the single-ended amps (which I do find sometimes overly warm and rounded off), however, I think much of the signature I heard was down to the speakers. Pete uses 15" Monitor Golds (the same as I do) albeit in very different cabinets, but he also uses the original crossovers...

Now I know how Monitor Golds sound with original crossovers, as I've heard them myself in my own system, and the original crossovers give a soft, fluffy, 'padded' type of sound, which is exactly what I was hearing, in comparison to the results I get with Golds using high quality crossovers with modern components. This really opens them up dramatically, significantly reduces distortion, and makes them sound much more dynamic and 'lifelike'. It really is a veritable 'night and day' difference!

I know why Pete prefers to keep the original crossovers, and I respect that, but nevertheless the fact is that by doing so he's not hearing anything like the full potential of these quite phenomenal drive units.

Anyway, I'm looking forward to next year's show. It should be a giggle (as it was the last time), and it would be good to get to know each other a little better, if this time you'll have more time on your hands to 'do the rounds' :cool:

Marco.

[Joe]

And that’s the point about the ‘subjective’ approach to hifi; if 99 people think something sounds great but one person thinks it sounds terrible, then that one person’s opinion is no less valid for being a minority one (assuming he/she has reasonably good hearing, of course). There can, by definition, be no ‘absolutes’.

It goes to the heart of what is important to me about hifi; if someone measures a component you like the sound of and finds that is introducing distortion of some kind, that shouldn’t matter if you prefer the sound with that distortion (or can live with it because you don’t want to lose the other strengths of the component).

[jandl100]

For me, it wasn't a case that I couldn't stay in the same room as his Tannoys (I presume by this you meant that they sounded harsh?),

Yes, very very harsh, grainy and raucous. Pete was playing the opposite of tinkly jazz when I went into his room. It sounded harsh and, well, tbh - painful. Other folks in the room were just groovin' to the vibe! :scratch: :confused: :)


but rather that the sound of the system for me in general was rather laid back and boring.

:D

Amazing! But obviously we heard the system in very different music.

[Marco]

LOL, Jerry; that is rather funny! :lol:

It surely must have been the difference in music and/or perhaps volume levels, which accounted for our diametrically opposed views of Pete's system. When I was in his room, the volume was pretty low and the sound was anything but harsh.

One thing I'm certain of though, if you don't like the Lockwoods, for any reason, it won't be because of any harsh, ear-bleeding quality they've got, because they simply don't have that type of presentation :)

Marco.

[Barry]

Marco - you must have your laptop back with you by now, so when are we going to read about your impressions of the Whittlebury show?

Go on: stop eulogising about your Tannoy/Lockwoods, pour yourself a big glass of wine and get on with it, otherwise the Manchester show will be upon us and I'll expect a write up of that from you! (I won't be able to attend, although I shall be in the area).

Cheers

[Marco]

Hi Barry,

Nope - still using my wife's laptop! It's a bloody nightmare, as the keys are much smaller and and I can't type anywhere near as fast...

I'll tell you what I thought of both shows on Saturday! :cool:

Marco.

[DSJR]

I listened to some active ATC 150's a few weeks ago which simply sucked the humanity out of anything played through them. The Tannoys on the other hand give the impression of real people making music & enjoying themselves. That makes them a precious & relatively rare thing imho.

It's also still surprising how well they work in what isn't a huge room, but it's something that often seems to happen with speakers using larger drivers.

I'd like to expand on this a bit more, but we have to go out shortly.

Just to say that if one is up close and personal with a vigorously drum kit, trumpet or sax, the natural sound of these is raw and "rude," for want of a better term. The "charm" that so many of us want in our HiFi's is actually a false thing, caused mainly by compression IMO..... the trouble is, not having the musicians nearby when playing recordings of them, we seem to need "more" in terms of emotion and "feeling" in the system. Nothing wrong in that IMO..

The ATC's give you the raw, more "animal" kind of reproduction that pros may need when mixing and mastering. The sound will appear "stripped" compared to cuddlier domestic systems I agree, but for a good few years, it's what I needed from my HiFi...

Speakers like the big Harbeths and, I suspect Tannoys too, seem able to fulfil both roles well, although the bigger harbeths I heard the other day tend to favour warmth and emotion over sheer dynamics and maximum volume levels. These characteristics are far better suited to lower level playback, where most ATC's contract into their boxes when turned down low..

Horses for courses. I now need a system for low volume levels and what I have sounds fine to me, if not the ultimate in up-to-date "cool." yes, marco, I'm enjoying my piddly old Crowns and not missing anything compared to the Croft 25 power amp :ner:

[Spectral Morn]

Hi Barry,

Nope - still using my wife's laptop! It's a bloody nightmare, as the keys are much smaller and and I can't type anywhere near as fast...

I'll tell you what I thought of both shows on Saturday! :cool:

Marco.

Thats no good though for the rest of us...is it?:(



Regards D S D L

[Marco]

You're right.

Don't worry, Neil, I'll do the write-up as promised as soon as I get my own laptop back :)

Dave, you've raised some interesting points. I'll try to reply later if I get a chance (packing now, as I'm off to London tomorrow). Guy is away to a hi-fi show in Portugal, so won't be able to reply until he gets back.

Marco.

[Joe]

Hi Barry,

Nope - still using my wife's laptop! It's a bloody nightmare, as the keys are much smaller and and I can't type anywhere near as fast....

Get your wife to type it then!

[Marco]

LOL - just like a secretary, eh? It's not the first time we've played that game, I can tell you! :lol:

:eyebrows: ;)

Marco.

[Joe]

Does she make you wear a short skirt and sit on her lap?

[The Grand Wazoo]

No, it's the laptop that got sat on - subtle difference!

[Marco]

Does she make you wear a short skirt and sit on her lap?

Only if I've been exceptionally bad ;)

Marco.

[jandl100]

It's OK folks, I'll do Marco's show report for him ...

Room 1 - not as good as my Tannoy based system
Room 2 - not as good as my Tannoy based system
Room 3 - not as good as my Tannoy based system
Room 4 - not as good as my Tannoy based system
Room 5 - not as good as my Tannoy based system
Room 6 - not as good as my Tannoy based system
Room 7 - not as good as my Tannoy based system
Room 8 - not as good as my Tannoy based system
Room 9 - not as good as my Tannoy based system
Room 10 - not as good as my Tannoy based system
Room 11 - not as good as my Tannoy based system
Room 12 - not as good as my Tannoy based system
Room 13 - not as good as my Tannoy based system
Room 14 - not as good as my Tannoy based system
Room 15 - not as good as my Tannoy based system
Room 16 - not as good as my Tannoy based system
Room 17 - not as good as my Tannoy based system
Room 18 - not as good as my Tannoy based system
Room 19 - not as good as my Tannoy based system
Room 20 - not as good as my Tannoy based system
___

There you go. Easy. :)

I'm happy to to have been able to help out. I'm just a helpful kind of guy. :lol:

[Joe]

You are guilty of 'shooting the messenger' (that bloke withh the beard what does the speaker reviews).

[Rare Bird]

It's OK folks, I'll do Marco's show report for him ...

Room 1 - not as good as my Tannoy based system
Room 2 - not as good as my Tannoy based system
Room 3 - not as good as my Tannoy based system
Room 4 - not as good as my Tannoy based system
Room 5 - not as good as my Tannoy based system
Room 6 - not as good as my Tannoy based system
Room 7 - not as good as my Tannoy based system
Room 8 - not as good as my Tannoy based system
Room 9 - not as good as my Tannoy based system
Room 10 - not as good as my Tannoy based system
Room 11 - not as good as my Tannoy based system
Room 12 - not as good as my Tannoy based system
Room 13 - not as good as my Tannoy based system
Room 14 - not as good as my Tannoy based system
Room 15 - not as good as my Tannoy based system
Room 16 - not as good as my Tannoy based system
Room 17 - not as good as my Tannoy based system
Room 18 - not as good as my Tannoy based system
Room 19 - not as good as my Tannoy based system
Room 20 - not as good as my Tannoy based system
___

There you go. Easy. :)

I'm happy to to have been able to help out. I'm just a helpful kind of guy. :lol:

:lol:

[darucla]

HI, I'm brand new to AOS and it's my first day at school, so please treat me gently :) I can't believe that on my first visit, you're discussing Be Yamamura & Studio Beco!:smoking:

I've been doing some personal research into Be's work for the last few months, and I'm hoping to see someone soon , who owns , what was Be's own Melco/ Fidelity Research FR66, purchased in the early eighties. Dave, did you visit Be when he lived in Bushey and did you know Bob Yates?

Thankyou.

Jonathan.

Strangely enough, it's my first day here, and I did know Bob Yates and Be Yamamura back in around 1981. I bought an Audionote M7 from Studio Beco, and sold a couple of others for them. I do have a photograph I took of a prototype turntable on which they were working, with very heavy platter, cotton thread drive, and an air pump system which took the weight of the platter when it was turning, so no wear on the bearing as such.

I recently fired up the Audionote and was shocked at how damn good it is.

Doug.

[amsterdam]

Strangely enough, it's my first day here, and I did know Bob Yates and Be Yamamura back in around 1981. I bought an Audionote M7 from Studio Beco, and sold a couple of others for them. I do have a photograph I took of a prototype turntable on which they were working, with very heavy platter, cotton thread drive, and an air pump system which took the weight of the platter when it was turning, so no wear on the bearing as such.

I recently fired up the Audionote and was shocked at how damn good it is.

Doug.

Hi Doug and welcome to AOS.

Patience obviously IS a virtue, since I posted that about a year and a half ago:eek:

Since this thread is so old ,and this was somewhat off topic anyway, would you mind if I PMd you?

Jonathan.