PDA

View Full Version : Cartridge upgrades



Varun
13-09-2009, 08:44
Dear Forum,

For some this question raised for a personal purpose entirely might appear 'Rhetorical' but I must ask.

I noted that David Price is using Lyra Titan and a local dealer-salesman promises me that he has gone through the Ortofon range and found that the top one costing around 2500 is far better than all those costing less.

This gentleman uses Garard with his own Plinth and a Rega arm.

Now the question- the mileage in going to that expense of the most expensive cartridge when using not the arm in the same league and so on. Upgrades and their worthiness is the question here- I am sure all such changes are 'better' but by how much?

hifi_dave
13-09-2009, 09:07
As with all such things, the law of diminishing returns kicks in really early and the differences between a £1K and £3K cartridge is actually very small. If you play the Titan to the man in the street and then the Dorian, he is unlikely to hear a significant difference and when you tell him the price he will tell you that you're mad. In fact, the casual listener will think you're a head case for spending £50 on a 'needle'. :mental:

It's up to the individual enthusiast to determine which is best and how much to spend and then you have the occasional 'giant killers' which make you wonder why things are priced the way they are. When you consider hand made cartridges, is there really hundreds or thousands of Pounds difference in the component price from the bottom to the top of the range ? I know there isn't, so how are they priced. :scratch:

It's easy for a reviewer ( who is not actually buying an expensive cartridge ) to say that the top model is light years or millions of miles better but when it comes to getting the money out of your wallet, things change.:doh:

Dave Cawley
13-09-2009, 09:28
David Price also uses a Koetsu Rosewood Signature, I set it up in a SL-1210 for him. I used a Transfiguration Phoenix for a while. They are all great cartridges if you can afford them easily.

But both David and I often use a £350 AT-OC9ML/II , the difference is quite small. as they say, horses for courses!

Regards

Dave

Marco
13-09-2009, 09:48
It's actually quite easy to determine why, in terms of sonic performance, the likes of an OC-9, 33PTG (or a 103SA) can get within a gnat's whisker of the top Lyras, Koetsus and Transfigurations of this world (and in some areas better them!), and it boils mainly down to three words...

economies of scale

...particularly in the case of the Denon. For example, do you think a DL-103SA would cost £450 (or thereabouts) if it were made, for example, by a much smaller company like Lyra, with vastly less resources? No chance. Try trebling it! It would be the same with an OC-9, if they made it. 'Prestige value' is also an issue, and I will explain this below.

There are undoubtedly some genuinely fantastic 'high-end' cartridges around, but the simple fact is that there is a significant price premium attached to their respective 'badges', reflecting the associated 'prestige value'. You cannot get away from that, and people will buy into this. It's human nauture to enjoy and take pride in owning things that are 'expensive'.

If you want the highest SPPV, however, it's a matter of having the knowledge and experience to discover the 'giant-killers' out there, and how to optimise their performance accordingly, saving a fortune in the process. Unfortunately, acquiring that knowledge and experience is not easy. It involves having an open mind, a willingness to do some research, and the ability to think outside of the box instead of simply opening your wallet.

Helping people do precisely that is what this forum is all about.

Marco.

DSJR
13-09-2009, 10:09
You're all correct fella's, but Marco, PLEASE bear in mind that these small scale models, which DON'T take weeks to make (!!!!!!!!) are priced at the maximum foo money that audiophools will pay..

I remember one distributor telling me that all his cartridges were the same model. They selected a few for better spec and doubled the price, then selected a few more and doubled the price again and so on (can't remember the models, but they looked like "T" shape with the pins on the front of the "T" - c'mon HiFi Dave, help an old codger out...?

I also remember being told on several occasions that certain Ortofon cartridges were actually cheaper to make than the packaging and when a very expensive top model cartridge failed, the distributor just gave out a new one free gratis on this occasion.. There was also a staff deal where I bought an MC30 Super with MCA 76 step-up for around £70 (retail was £500 at least back then)...

The cantilever/diamond assemblies are available in little pots of 100 (or thereabouts) assemblies and many of the magnet assemblies look similar. I do appreciate that fancy little milled bodies made in small quantities won't be that cheap, but they CAN'T surely cost more than a huge fancy amplifier body.

Finally, Roy Gandy - an expert in costing products for fair price and profit - told us once that NO cartridge should cost more than £250 (£500 in todays money) unless they have a rare gemstone body. Rega seem to have gone against this now with the Apheta, which looks as though it costs tuppence to make in all honesty.

Sorry, superior cartridges like the OC9, DL103 etc are perfectly profitable for the manufacturer, distributer AND dealer selling it (look at all that "profit/slurp" :)) and they're STILL far cheaper than some of these fancy devices that cost over a grand.

Economies of scale be damned. Apologies for the outburst, but there are too many uber-riche Hong Kong audiophools with too much money to burn - £12,500 for a phono stage indeed - their gullibility beggars belief :(

Marco
13-09-2009, 10:58
Great post, Dave. I completely agree with everything you've written.


You're all correct fella's, but Marco, PLEASE bear in mind that these small scale models, which DON'T take weeks to make (!!!!!!!!) are priced at the maximum foo money that audiophools will pay..


This is exactly what I mean when I refer to 'prestige value' and 'badge snobbery'.

Quite simply, the more people there are who succumb to the attraction of the above, the more 'foo' prices will exist attached to products which in reality should sell for a fraction of the price.

I agree; the Japanese 'high-end' audiophiles are largely to blame for this, but the 'disease' is still endemic at the core of the UK market, too. I'm afraid that as long as people are willing to pay lunatic prices for the likes of a Keel, that will remain the case.

People, badge snobs aside, just need some 'educating' to wake up and smell the coffee.

I'd love to set-up a room at a hi-fi show, and take along a handful of popular 'high-end' MC cartridges (supplied by their users) and, say, an AT33PTG, stock DL-103 and a 103SA, using my modified Techie, preamp, SUT and an alternative MC phono stage to demonstrate the differences, playing the same piece of music in the same system. People would be in for a shock at both how stunning the latter can sound when sympathetically matched and optimally set-up, and how little difference there is between them and their counterparts at many times the price.

And also in some cases, how the respective 'giant-killers' above can not only match them, but outperform them in key areas! I suspect though that some would find this a rather disconcerting experience ;)

Marco.

DSJR
13-09-2009, 11:16
The sad thing is Marco, that I doubt the high end "independant" market exists now in the UK, as the people able to afford this stuff are either allied to Absolute Sounds (Krell, ARC, Sonus Faber, ML, Koetsu, Wilson), Linn (the "Klub"), Naim (usually used as a full electronic system if not with their speakers), or even the best of B&O, which I understand is seriously good if done right.

People such as yourself have custom made amps (don't know how much they cost - apologies Anthony), carefully selected and race-tuned vintage speakers and sources. I think you are a (good) throw-back to HiFi as it was in my youth. But today, it's all about joining and belonging to a club, with an Aspergic stance on the "belonging," hence the bitter vitriol (lack of social skills) if anyone dares to challenge their rigidly held beliefs.

kcc123
13-09-2009, 11:29
Hi Macro,
It seems that you are slightly over confident; you may get your ass kicked if you really set up such demonstration.

Marco
13-09-2009, 12:24
Hi King,

Possibly, but I doubt it. Thing is, I'd have nothing to lose. I'd be the one championing the 'cheapo' cartridges, not the 'hi-end' ones, so if they ended up sounding worse then you could say that's exactly what would have been expected. However, if the reverse happened, it would definitely raise a few eyebrows! It'd be rather like Arsenal playing Swindon Town in the FA Cup - Arsenal would have everything to lose and little to gain by winning... ;)

Dave,


People such as yourself have custom made amps (don't know how much they cost - apologies Anthony), carefully selected and race-tuned vintage speakers and sources. I think you are a (good) throw-back to HiFi as it was in my youth.


Thanks - I'll take that as a compliment. Well, part of why I started AoS along with Steve and Rob was to try and create/appeal to more people with my type of 'hi-fi mentality', and to a degree I think this has been a success. One only has to look at how massively popular, for example, the Techie and DL-103 have become, amongst other things. I'd like to think that AoS has played a significant role in that.


But today, it's all about joining and belonging to a club, with an Aspergic stance on the "belonging," hence the bitter vitriol (lack of social skills) if anyone dares to challenge their rigidly held beliefs.


That's an interesting insight into this bizarre mentality, and you're probably right. I've met quite a few and 'crossed swords' with them on other forums! I just don't get it though; it's a way of thinking that is completely alien to me. I'm not interested in belonging to or forming any sort of hi-fi "club" based on the dogmatic following of a particular brand or the flat earth nonsense of the 70s and 80s, and indeed find the thought risible.

Surely it's about enjoying music and getting the biggest bang for your buck with whatever equipment you choose?

That's certainly what this forum exists for. The only "club" we're interested in belonging to is the club of satisfied music lovers! :cool:

Marco.

bigmoog
13-09-2009, 12:35
having used all sorts of 'high end' phonograph cartridges, I always return to proper needles: A decca or a DL103 variant. No need for anything over 500 notes. Fact:smoking:

Varun
13-09-2009, 14:38
That is exactly what I wanted to learn- so many thanks to all those experts.

The reason I put it to the forum is that my Dynavector XX-1 will need to be replaced in a few months- I am anticipating.

The choices facing me are:
1. Re-tip the Koetsu Black K- but it may cost me more as the cantilever is borken.
2. Go for the choices made clear by Marco.

I took an instant dislike to OC-9- too bright, too lush for my liking. Now looking back I was only using the Hi-Fi news step-up transformer then with EAR 802/509. I wonder if with the loading controls I have on my Plinius Phono-Preamp, all these criticisms will seem misplaced.

Then how will you narrow the choice between an OC-9; AT-33 or Denon-103SA? is the next question.

I have never been for forking out mega bucks for cartridges.

Marco
13-09-2009, 14:59
Hi Varun,

In order to answer your query properly I need the following relevant information:

1) What is it you like about the presentation of your Dynavector - ditto your Koetsu?

2) Is this what you're looking for in any replacement cartridge, or if not what?

3) Please list your full system and available budget for cartridge replacement.

I will then digest the information carefully and come up with the best solution I can think of :)

Marco.

DSJR
13-09-2009, 15:07
I'd either get the XX1 re-tipped as you seem to like it (I remember liking it a lot at the time), or look at a AT33PTG, as it has a bit more "solidity" than a vanilla OC9ML.

However, the AT's do have a neutral to bright presentation - great for Decca-heads like me, but not fancied by the romatics who like full-on bloat Koetsu red (and above) presentation - the Black was rather nore "correct" if mine is anything to go by (it's lost a channel and I haven't the funds to send it to EsCo for checking).

I only know the DL103C and 103D (owned the latter with a Mission 774 arm many centuries ago it seems). The sound was rather "dry" but I suspect this was the arm rather than the cartridge. The concensus was that the 103C was almost as good for a heck of a lot less money and Marco and others have found that a different body on the 103 transforms it further, so I cannot comment further. I do like the idea of buying a 103 for £100 or so (cheaper than a DL110 now I think) and doing some careful DIY on it.....

Dave Cawley
13-09-2009, 15:33
If it helps, any thing ' click here (http://www.soundhifi.com/cartidgeindez.html) ' 10% off and free postage, or more on expensive ones to AOS members.

Dave

Varun
13-09-2009, 17:03
Many thanks Marco, Dave DSJR and Dave C,

Dynavector is high output.

I always liked the Dynavector but Koetsu after re-tipping by Stylys expert had lost its dark bloat and fullness which I do not like. In many ways they became similar-but Koetsu more weight perhaps- if I remember. The VPI manufacturer prefers Dynavector.

So it has to be clean and neutral- that is no enhancements- no artificial boosts in any frequency range. Transparency is what is required but at the same time it has to have the weight and presence which large orchestral works require. Above all tonal purity and neatness and detail- strings- sopranos and so on.

Marco- I do not wish to change the sound as it is- either Koetsu or Dynavector re-tipped will do. It will be too much of a risk- because if I do not like-then bad bad.. also I can not fit cartrides etc. The dealer who is no longer active had ordered a transfiguration Spirit for £600 about 3 years ago. Some how he could not get the time to comes and install it. Out of frustration, I ended up having the Dynavector re-tipped and a friend installed it for me.

I can for instance - if I feel courageous which I do not-trade in the XX-1 for the new XX-2 which sells close to 1K, so I will get it for around £800. I am not thinking of forking out that much hence the query about the much talked on this forum- 103s and 09s.

Varun
13-09-2009, 17:14
My System Marco is on my gallery but for this discussion

TT:-VPI-TNT Hotrod V with 12" arm.
Plinius M14 Phono pre-amplifier
Plinius CDLAD line level pre-amp
Plinius SA250 Class A power amp (250W/ch).

All interconnects are Siltech Silver as per Plinius recommendation.

Speakers- B&W 803,

Latest addition. Silver-copper speaker cable imported from Sharkwire-Taiwan. I needed a longer length- so far it has sounded excellent and better and improving. Great saving for me.

hifi_dave
13-09-2009, 17:47
DSJR - Was it a Talisman ? We used to have a demo one fitted to an Oracle Alexandria. It was OK but not special.

One reason some of the very expensive cartridges are so is that they are hand made and usually just one person has the knowledge and skill. This person can only make so many and I know from talking with Lyra, that Mishima can only produce a couple of carts a day and so they are priced accordingly. When it comes to the Titan, the parts are limited by rarity value and each one is made by Mishima and has a long run, test and calibration time. Mishima is now an old man and when he has an off day there are no cartridges produced.

However, I have difficulty justifying how one hand made cartridge in a range can be worth double that of another. The parts can't be that expensive, surely ?

DSJR
13-09-2009, 19:41
Dave W, it was originally rep'd by the former Quad rep - CLEARAUDIO - that's it......

Couple of carts a day, that's £100 each one then! Where does the other £1K plus come in?

I suppose I've answered my sarcastic paragraph above - £150 to make, many people in the food chain, so it has to sell for £1,500 plus so everyone gets their cut.

I have to admit that the standard DL103 seems amazing value as cheaper mm's twenty three years ago now cost double if you can still get them - ADC XLM III, Ortofon's updated mm's, the better ones over £200, the AT440MLa is more costly now..

hifi_dave
13-09-2009, 19:51
What about expensive watches ? Every week in the Mail on Sunday supplement, they feature toys for the boys with a few watches. Some of these cost tens of thousands for something which ( to me ) look like any old chunky watch. They don't do anything special and aren't jewel encrusted so how come they cost many thousands of Pounds ?:scratch:

Alex_UK
13-09-2009, 22:10
What about expensive watches ? Every week in the Mail on Sunday supplement, they feature toys for the boys with a few watches. Some of these cost tens of thousands for something which ( to me ) look like any old chunky watch. They don't do anything special and aren't jewel encrusted so how come they cost many thousands of Pounds ?:scratch:

Same as in Hi-Fi - or Fashion - or cars - pretty much anything - "Badge Snobbery" as often referred to and (rightly) derided on this very forum! ...and marketing/advertising - those MoS pages cost plenty, which the purchaser pays for!

markf
14-09-2009, 01:42
So what are we saying here......Don't buy an expensive cart. I'm currently using a ZYX
R100 YATRA and when it is time to replace it ,I was going to go for something more expensive ,
maybe stay with ZYX or try something else. (I like the look of the latest Ortofon , the A90)
I have an old NAGAOKA MP11 Boron, should I really be using that instead of the ZYX ?

Dave Cawley
14-09-2009, 07:14
Hi Mark

I think we are saying is that if you can "easily" afford it, then do spend a lot of money. But that the better value is in the under £400 range. Most of my listening is done with an AT-OC9ML/II and Shelter 501/II, others quite rightly prefer the DL-103 (/R /S/A)

If money didn't mean much to me I would have a Koetsu Rosewood Signature in a heartbeat, why not?

Regards

Dave

Varun
14-09-2009, 08:00
Replacing cartridges every x-number of months- depending on the usage- is a monumentally expensive affair. That is where re-tipping whether people like it or not is so cost effective and I for one did not feel the worse for it-as the workmanship was consistently excellent.

As far as I know- the work of art has to show itself in sound- but then bulk of sound reproduction should have been sorted out in the more permanent side of the equipment- the TT and the amps etc. My criticism would be of those who use a mid range equipment at all levels and suddenly plonk the most expensive cartridge in at the other end.

My bigger criticism is - using it for listening to music which is not worth it- in the sense that the improvement in electronically amplified music to which all Rock/Pop genre belongs-is make believe. So for that purpose spend as much as you like. Jean Michel Jarre's music is an excellent example.

Viva Linn-Naim influence on people's ears

Clive
14-09-2009, 08:17
So what are we saying here......Don't buy an expensive cart. I'm currently using a ZYX
R100 YATRA and when it is time to replace it ,I was going to go for something more expensive ,
maybe stay with ZYX or try something else. (I like the look of the latest Ortofon , the A90)
I have an old NAGAOKA MP11 Boron, should I really be using that instead of the ZYX ?
I have a ZYX R100 (not the YATRA version), I also have an Ortofon Kontra B. My London (Decca) Jubilee leaves them well behind, in comparison the ZYX and KB are lacking life and are woolly in the bass and we're not talking a subtle differences here.

The Jubilee is expensive (£1200), the Londons further down the range provide the same sort of sound but with a slightly less cohesive sound. You could consider Super Gold, Gold or Maroon depending on what you're willing to spend.

I should add that the Londons can be a little picky about ground connections, in some setups they need care to avoid hum. Worth the hassle though!

hifi_dave
14-09-2009, 08:54
The London (Decca) cartridges are wonderful but are not for everyone and they need the right arm and TT to get the best from it. The excitement, dynamics, speed, detail and sheer involvement leave practically everything else way behind and they are good value for a hand made, hand tweaked cart.

I think that with every expensive cartridge, if you like it and can afford it then why not ? It might not be value for money but like fine wine, watches, exotic cars and the like, it's up to the buyer to decide what is value.

The Grand Wazoo
14-09-2009, 09:25
Quoting: Varun
My bigger criticism is - using it for listening to music which is not worth it- in the sense that the improvement in electronically amplified music to which all Rock/Pop genre belongs-is make believe. So for that purpose spend as much as you like. Jean Michel Jarre's music is an excellent example.


Varun,
Statements like that make me a little agitated – you have also spoken like this in another thread recently and I chose not to comment then. This time, however, I cannot let it go unmentioned.

The sort of attitude that you are displaying here seems to exist exclusively with lovers of classical music – why is that?

Please don't deride all music other than classical as 'unworthy' because it is amplified. I love many forms of music, including classical, but this superior stance you seem to be exhibiting is not flattering to you.

If you don't understand the enjoyment others get from amplified music, then please don't deride it. Rather, you should celebrate the fact that they have a love of music – any music.

There is as much to be heard from amplified music as any other – and in fact is it not the case that the recorded orchestral music which you love so much is captured by a chain of electronic devices almost as long as that in a rock/pop recording?

Does none of that have an influence on what you are finally hearing?

I'd say that unless you are in the room with the players & their instruments, then it's all make believe. Electronic instruments and amplifiers simply broaden the range of sounds available to a musician – just as two violins from different makers can have a different character of sound, so do two amplifiers such as a Vox AC30 and a Fender Twin Reverb.

I personally don't like the music of Jean Michelle Jarre, but is it somehow less valid as something by, say, Beethoven, Schubert or Liszt? Electronic instruments require the same skill and sensitivity to effectively convey the emotion of a piece of music as any other. In fact, I know competent players of orchestral music who merely play by numbers (the score) & freely admit that their biggest struggle is to put real emotion into a piece – and you can hear it too!

If composers who used themes from folk music like Dvorak and Smetana had been alive today, don't you think they would be drawing on contemporary music in their work? – Not to mention Bartok, who plagiarised folk music just as shamelessly as The Rolling Stones & Led Zeppelin did!

It's all just music – if there is something you don't like, that's fine – don't listen to it. But by dismissing it as inferior, you are the one who will lead a less rich life than those who recognise that all music has equal validity.

Varun
14-09-2009, 09:43
great stuff Chris,

If I may clarify- of course I listen to all sorts of music including Weather Report- all electronic and greatly admire what they do- so much so that in my most humble opinion- they were ahead of their time.

Anyway- the issue is strictly- about music reproduction-by a stereo system and the standards there of- AND not about Genre or type of music. On this issue we (both) seem to agree that acoustic music is the best yardstick- as do Barry and Marco.

So question specific for this thread was- and when I talk-usually it is in a very specific sense- was how can one prove (I need proof before I spend) that a 3K cartridge is better than a 1K cartridge when the reviewers call the shots based on opinions which is more than half of the time very questionable and again in my most humble opinion based on selection of music-with no yardstick to speak of.

I always steer well clear of subjects about personal choices- it is the proof- the solidity of evidence I am looking for and being a scientist consider most reviewed opinion-abysmal-but then that is the world we live.

Dave Cawley
14-09-2009, 09:45
how can one prove (I need proof before I spend) that a 3K cartridge is better than a 1K cartridge

Go to a dealer and listen!

Dave

The Grand Wazoo
14-09-2009, 09:49
how can one prove (I need proof before I spend) that a 3K cartridge is better than a 1K cartridge

Go to a dealer and listen!

Dave

Yes, the Mk I lughole is the best tool you have to do that job!

Varun
14-09-2009, 09:49
All I would say about classical music is that we live in a world saturated by it- be it advertisements or backgrounds music for many of the serials televised- and yet most people do not appreciate it.

At a personal level I look beyond tunes and repetition and of course there are some brilliant composers in Rock/Pop field whom I admire and like very much and have their records.

Beyond these short comments- the issue of classical music I raise is sheer scale and dynamic range- from a Hi Fi reproduction point of and nothing else.

Varun
14-09-2009, 09:58
Well well- that is very interesting.

If ears are the best instruments-then I draw your attention to the early postings from HiFi Dave, DSJR and Marco.

I have never been convinced having listened that speaker cables costing 3 times make that much difference- they simply shift the sound presentation- and of course a dealer would be very quickly out of business if he was no longer to promote the top end of every item. Are you trying to tell me that within a single audition a dealer is going to unpack a 1K cartridge, then a 2K cartridge mount it and play it in a system which may be well beyond the caliber of the system you use in a positive or negative scale.

The dealer is there to do business of course!

Dave Cawley
14-09-2009, 10:05
Varun

Why do you reject every single bit of help offered to you?

Dave

The Grand Wazoo
14-09-2009, 10:17
Beyond these short comments- the issue of classical music I raise is sheer scale and dynamic range- from a Hi Fi reproduction point of and nothing else.

Apologies if I misunderstood your post.
However, I'd argue with your supposition that massive scale & dynamism is not available in the non-orchestral canon!

Clive
14-09-2009, 13:56
The London (Decca) cartridges are wonderful but are not for everyone and they need the right arm and TT to get the best from it. The excitement, dynamics, speed, detail and sheer involvement leave practically everything else way behind and they are good value for a hand made, hand tweaked cart.

In terms of needing the right TT or arm for the Londons, this is true - just as it is for a 103. If you have a poorer cartridge that hides part of the sound it will hide problems too. I'd argue that any component that is rather special will have specific matching requirements. The extra vividness and life you get with a London would expose the failings of lesser equipment. The 103 issue is I suppose different, it mainly needs a massy arm.

DSJR
14-09-2009, 16:33
The XYX R100 I heard didn't sound soft in the bass at all, but it was in a 12" AceSpace on a Dias, so that may have something to do with it ;)

I'd also agree that a well tamed Decca is absolutley awsome and almost NOTHING comes close. Many years ago now, Jimmy Hughes had a Kiseki Lapis Lazuli cartridge which was around £2,000 back then (double it or more for todays prices). It certainly had a sense of precision, low colouration and a "seamlessness" which seemed lacking in cheaper models.

Clive
14-09-2009, 17:44
The XYX R100 I heard didn't sound soft in the bass at all, but it was in a 12" AceSpace on a Dias, so that may have something to do with it ;)
Maybe "woolly in the bass" was a bit harsh of me. The Kontra B has a biggish bass that's a little fruity (or the opposite of dry), the ZYX is tighter in the bass but there is less of it. The Deccas are a lot different, especially in bass detail & dynamics.

Varun
14-09-2009, 18:34
Hi Dave C

You are absolutely right to feel that I was rejecting your offer. It is indeed marvellous and tremendous of the help you offer on the forum but my comments were not aimed personally-for which apologies if it seemed so.

I was speaking cartridge demos in a generic sense- and perhaps that was the reason why I started off (the thread) by suggesting that it was a Rhetorical question. What I meant was that there are so many variables in a cartridge demo- the most difficult one being the 'run in'. In many ways therefore one has to predict how a cartridge will evolve.

May I please take this opportunity to ask- what was the Transfiguration Spirit like? I understand there were 2 models- one low and one high out put.

Varun
14-09-2009, 18:46
Gran Commendatore Chris,

I do not think an apology was necessary but it is very kind of you. You did make a valid point about classical music vs everything else. I admire Paul Simon and also Mark Knoffler-both keep on exploring music from different parts of the world-and both outstanding composers-in fact geniuses. And there are others.

I also agree that there are other mediums- Jazz in particular. I have only today brought with me two boxes of my LPs. I would say I have 15% of my collection here. This lot includes an album of some 9 Jazz records issued by Verve. I will have to go through the Ellington one which is a large scale affair.

Even then - the sheer size of a work like Beethoven's 9th or Carmina Burana or even some of Mahler symphonies-is a different matter.

Kurt Masur conducting the same 9th in Albert Hall 3 years ago required 3 choirs to fill the hall. I have the telecast on DVD as my daughter was singing in one of the choirs.

DSJR
14-09-2009, 21:16
On a VERY humble level and aimed directly(ish) at Marco, I've just discovered that the Stanton 681EEE is now in a mark 3 version, compared to the mk1 models I used and sold. This would certainly explain why he likes the current ones and I didn't much care for the old-uns.

Now back to REAL cartridges.....:gig:

Marco
14-09-2009, 21:19
Dahling, you should know now that I'm rarely wrong - or should that be always right? :eyebrows:

;)

Marco.

SteveW
14-09-2009, 22:06
I use a Lyra Argo..















I'll get me coat.

Varun
15-09-2009, 05:55
I think Marco's idea of a cartridge demo is a brilliant one.

So in the end where do the Giant Killers fit in- in the current scheme of things? Where does Marco place a Decca London for instance?

There is another one Dave C has on his website a 501 mark II?

bigmoog
15-09-2009, 07:48
I would place the Decca London/London Decca at the top, with everything else below and for comparison. It may be finicky and fragile, but set up right in a suitable arm, playing music...it will eat over priced 1,000 quid plus, Moving Coils. In my listening experience only a handful of cartridges can match or surpass the Deccas music:

Win FET-10
Ikeda
Denon DL 103, R, S, Pro
Some Ortofons (SPU, 3000....)

Varun
15-09-2009, 17:58
Marco has gone silent on this issue Jonathan!

so where would you get a new Decca? Please tell me.

Marco
15-09-2009, 18:01
Hi Varun,

Not "gone quiet", just busy! Bear with me :)

Marco.

Clive
15-09-2009, 18:02
Marco has gone silent on this issue Jonathan!

so where would you get a new Decca? Please tell me.
http://www.presenceaudio.com/

and check out http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/0609/london_super_gold_jubilee.htm

Varun
15-09-2009, 18:15
Thanks Clive,

In price stake the Deccas match other top brands- I wonder why for a MM cartridge, the need for such a large range-Does it make life easier - cheaper ? meaning you can chuck the phono-preamp???

Marco
15-09-2009, 18:19
http://www.presenceaudio.com/


Pity there's no prices attached to that, though... Not everyone can be arsed sending an email or phoning up when simply doing some research.

I always find it frustrating when websites omit the most important information of all! :mental:

I do highly rate Deccas, though, but they're not for everyone, and definitely every bit as fussy to get 'singing' as a DL-103!

Marco.

Clive
15-09-2009, 18:23
Thanks Clive,

In price stake the Deccas match other top brands- I wonder why for a MM cartridge, the need for such a large range-Does it make life easier - cheaper ? meaning you can chuck the phono-preamp???
I can't comment much on the cost of the parts for these cartridges. I assume they don't use off-the-shelf relatively mass produced parts so they are a bit more of a special with low volume parts to be sourced. Maybe someone around here's heard the cheapest one, the Maroon - I'm guessing it sounds most like the original Deccas.

Prices - Maroon £400, Gold £?, Super Gold £599, Jubilee £1299, Reference £too much

Marco
15-09-2009, 18:27
Maybe someone around here's heard the cheapest one, the Maroon - I'm guessing it sounds most like the original Deccas.


It also has a spherical stylus, which I generally prefer, and as such will likely sound quite different from the rest - and not necessarily worse in certain areas ;)

Cheers for providing some prices.

At £400, the Maroon (when optimised) could be another potential 'giant-killer'.

Marco.

REM
15-09-2009, 18:32
Have they cracked the problem of them re-carving a new groove as they track the record?:confused:

Cheers:cool:

DSJR
15-09-2009, 18:34
I had an early London "Blue" back in the mid seventies. There was this "snap" sound when the stylus hit the groove and the thing was rather "raw" even though it tracked very well (I was told - tongue in cheek - that RCA pressings were designed to be played by a Decca at 3 grammes...).

The Gold Microscanner I have was incredibly genteel by comparison and just "got on with it."

Personally, I'd avoid the cheaper Decca's unless there's a DeccaPod or similar to mount it in. The chunky dearer models look much better, but I don't know how many they sell these days, as they lack the audiophool snobbery - well, maybe the top one has a fair bit and I can guarantee that many owners of this one won't know how to use it.

DSJR
15-09-2009, 18:36
Have they cracked the problem of them re-carving a new groove as they track the record?:confused:

Cheers:cool:

Mine didn't and the records I played using it have lived to tell the tale...

Varun
15-09-2009, 18:38
The reviewer in the link Clive kindly gave listens to Sonny Rollins "Saxophone Collossus" so that a plus for him- but may I ask Jonathan or Clive and Marco if he has time-what is the main distinguishing feature of this stable Vs MCs?

Of course I have used MMs before P77 if I remember correctly but never went the Grado way.

Marco
15-09-2009, 18:41
Hi Dave,

Educate me here... What's a "Deccapod" and why do you reckon it would be so essential with, say, the Maroon shown on the Presence Audio website?

I missed the Decca 'golden era' (I've heard a couple of nice examples, though) so I'm a relative novice when it comes to them :)

Marco.

Clive
15-09-2009, 18:59
Have they cracked the problem of them re-carving a new groove as they track the record?:confused:

Cheers:cool:
The resonance problem you refer to is not something that is complained about nowadays. The Deccapod may be needed for some very light arms - similar but the not same as the 103 needing mass. I don't know for sure but I suspect the resonance fix was to fill up the inside with clear goop.



The reviewer in the link Clive kindly gave listens to Sonny Rollins "Saxophone Collossus" so that a plus for him- but may I ask Jonathan or Clive and Marco if he has time-what is the main distinguishing feature of this stable Vs MCs?

Of course I have used MMs before P77 if I remember correctly but never went the Grado way.
The Deccas / Londons stand out in particular in the bass. The Jubilee is maybe more MC like (refined), the Super Gold is more sort of rough and tumble in a good way, like some MMs. Bass is still a stand out.

Oh yes, did I mention the bass? I really is a level higher than any cartridge I can think of at several times the price of the SG and Jub (ie the ones I've heard).

Dynamic and vivid too.

DSJR
15-09-2009, 19:09
Marco, if you look at the front page on the presence Audio website, you'll see the humbler Decca's still have that nasty red soft-plastic mounting bracket. The Decapod (one C - apologies) re-inforces the coupling twixt arm and cartridge and kills most of the problems at a stroke, whilst enhancing further the cartridge's music making abilities. Mine has a version of the 'pod made by Martin Bastin - his version calls for the top of the cartridge to be removed and his mount screws into the cartridge itself (again, the innards are based on this red plastic material). The Decapod clamps to the body of the cartridge unless I'm mistaken, but I think both work the same magic on the design.

I'm sure the Jelco with a little damping would take a Decca very well. Tracking ability wasn't an issue with mine either, although the better tip must have helped with this..

Clive
15-09-2009, 19:12
Think it's one C as Presence don't own the rights to the name Decca.

Instead of Decapod you could try good old blue tack between cartridge and headshell but not if you already have a Decapod....

hifi_dave
15-09-2009, 19:19
The cartridges have, for some years, been called London, the Decca name has long ceased to be used for legal reasons.

I have used Decca's (original and mod'd) for years and have no record damage. I have customers who are still happily using their Decca's from the 80's. Tales of damage are usually from a friend of a friend and wildly exaggerated. Any problem is usually down to using the wrong arm.

The Deccapod is a Martin Bastin invention and is a tight slide on lid affair which takes the place of the standard lid. It has two fixing bolts or threaded holes for fixing into the heaadshell. The Deccapod brings about a subtle but worthwhile improvement to the sound but is not recommended for all arms and turntables because it channels so much energy from the cartridge into the arm that nasty things can occur. If in doubt with a bouncy turntable or flimsy arm, the standard plastic mount is recommended.

The latest London cartridges are hand made, each and every one and are consistently excellent. Prices start off very reasonable with a spherical jobbie and go on up. They can even supply a mono version of each model and these have been surprisingly popular.

Marco
15-09-2009, 19:22
Most interesting, chaps. Thanks for the info. I suspect that a Maroon will be added to my cartridge collection sooner rather than later ;)

Marco.

hifi_dave
15-09-2009, 19:34
Are you talking new London or vintage ?

Clive
15-09-2009, 19:41
The great thing with vintage is that John Wright will service it for you, keep it as is or turn it into a newer version, whatever you prefer.

Marco
15-09-2009, 19:42
Are you talking new London or vintage ?


Now there's a question! I haven't got that far with it yet :eyebrows:

What are the differences and which would you recommend, given what you know of my sonic proclivities when it comes to cartridges (i.e. tone & timbre always over analytical detail retrieval) :)

Marco.

P.S Clive, who's John Wright?

Clive
15-09-2009, 19:47
One of the downsides of vintage it that it's down to pot luck which way the coils are wound. Some go the wrong way and subsequently hum.

John Wright makes the Londons. J Wright Audio Services.

Varun
15-09-2009, 19:53
Many thanks Clive,

This talk on London's is taking a very favourable turn. I take it that all of the London's such as Jubilee are made a new- not recycled old skulls as it were? And also how does the range fair on classical music?

Clive
15-09-2009, 19:58
They are all new, not recycled as far as I'm aware. I know Brian and John bought the stock of Decca parts, at what point they needed to get more made I have no idea.

For classical they work well too. It's an old analogy but it's like looking through a newly cleaned window. But if I hype you up too much you'll end up with over-high expectations.

Marco
15-09-2009, 20:00
One of the downsides of vintage it that it's down to pot luck which way the coils are wound. Some go the wrong way and subsequently hum.


Any advantage in terms of sound? I'm used to the notion that 'NOS' in most things is generally better (read as nicer 'tone'/richer presentation) :)

Marco.

hifi_dave
15-09-2009, 20:14
Back in the 80's we sold mainly vintage Decca's which were serviced by an old boy who used to build them, they were then (usually) sent to Australia for a thorough Garroting. They did sound pretty stunning but we had our fair share of faults but these were rectifiable.

Nowadays, these old Decca's very rarely show up but new ones are available tomorrow. The other thing is that the new London cartridges have been 100% reliable and in performance to date. I think if you can get the model you want at a very good price then it's worth a punt but if not I would recommend a new one without hesitation.

Clive
15-09-2009, 20:23
Any advantage in terms of sound? I'm used to the notion that 'NOS' in most things is generally better (read as nicer 'tone'/richer presentation) :)

Marco.
Marco, I know someone who compared a serviced old Black to a new Super Gold. The SG was somewhat better though very similar in it's characteristics. These cartridges are made much as they always were but with more attention to detail and consistency.

Varun
15-09-2009, 20:37
Clive,

I have been looking at the Jubilee specs on Needle Doctors website (USA). It has an output of 5mV which will be too much for my phono-preamp-and if so I will have to return to my passive phono-pre-amp which luckily did not sell. That cartridge listed at $2800 is not cheap. The cartridge is also very light- weighing only 6gms..ish.

I am interested and intrigued to learn that it as no cantilever.

bigmoog
15-09-2009, 20:37
decca cartridges (all flavours), are the greatest :smoking:

hifi_dave
15-09-2009, 20:47
Varun, Not really. The stylus is directly on the end of the pole piece which moves in the coil. This is more direct than any cartridge with a cantilever and is one reason why they are so dynamic and communicative but is also why they can't be used in any old arm on any old turntable.

The matching/ output requirements are just the same as any MM cartridge though some may prefer a 33K loading.

Once you've heard a London (or Decca) all else is hazy, like a big ol' blanket on your speakers.:doh:

Marco
15-09-2009, 21:00
Yes, but I presume as a result of their midrange immediacy, rather than their brightly lit top-end? :)

The ones I've heard were certainly like that (no overly bright top-end, but very 'fast'), and they also had a lovely 'tone' and bass depth. All in all, a very musical listen.

Marco.

hifi_dave
15-09-2009, 21:22
Yes, but I presume as a result of their midrange immediacy, rather than their brightly lit top-end? :)

The ones I've heard were certainly like that (no overly bright top-end, but very 'fast'), and they also had a lovely 'tone' and bass depth. All in all, a very musical listen.

Marco.

That's it in a nutshell. I haven't (for some reason) used London (or Decca) cartridges for years but I was prompted to try again a few months ago because I was struggling to find a cartridge I really enjoyed for a reasonable outlay. You see, even Hi-Fi dealers have to buy their demo stock and I ain't gonna pay thousands for an exotic cart, so I ordered in a Super Gold with Pod.

I mounted this in a 9 inch Nottingham Analogue Ace Space arm on a Hyper Space and straightaway the magic returned. It really is like lifting a sheet (perhaps not a blanket) off the speakers. All other carts I have sound hazy and more distant and the bass. Oh, the bass.:lol: Depth, punch, tone, clarity, definition.

This really is a stunning cartridge and so underrated, so misunderstood. I am now working my way up through the models and enjoying every minute.

Marco
15-09-2009, 21:34
You're definitely selling it to me, Dave. I hope Varun's finding this interesting, too :)

I bet my Croft would love a Decca. I know Glenn rates them highly, too... In fact, doesn't (or didn't) he use one himself?

Marco.

hifi_dave
15-09-2009, 21:49
When you're passing, pop in and hear for yourself - not sure that Varun could do the same though.:scratch:

Glenn and Tom Fletcher turned me on to original Decca's back in the early 80's and they both used them. I'm not sure what Glenn uses now but his new pre's and phono stage work really well with the London cartridges.

Marco
15-09-2009, 22:29
I thought that they might ;)

If I'm in the area I definitely will do, Dave. I'd love to check out your set-up :)

I'd like to hear the Harbeth Monitor 40s, in particular, to see how they compared to my old SP100s. I suspect they'd be rather different though from my Tannoy Lockwoods...

Marco.

The Grand Wazoo
15-09-2009, 23:17
Dave,
What does a Super Gold with a Deccapod go for new?
The times I've heard Decca's I always thought they were great - but they do tend to have a habit of mistracking when things aren't going well.
How would one fair in a Zeta?

Varun
16-09-2009, 06:11
Dave (Hi Fi)

You have almost sold me one. Firstly it has to be 'not edgy, sharp or too bright' and if clarity (tonal) and weight exist- then there we are- I must have it.

But Dave - you are at the other end of the world- no likelihood my getting that far.

I think it was time to move out of the unending MC business. I am going to ask the VPI manufacturer about the compatibility etc.

Also-are they re-tippable? I know you do not like the idea.

Cheers

Clive
16-09-2009, 07:14
Also-are they re-tippable? I know you do not like the idea.


Varun, they are re-tippable in that John Wright does this, if you want a tip fitting from another company they may not know how to re-align the stylus following re-tipping. Then again there are a few people around with Decca experience so it's more a matter of finding the right person to do this if you have a special tip in mind.

DSJR
16-09-2009, 08:32
The first thing to note is that you can draw the frequency response from mid bass to mid treble with a ruler. The behaviour above 10K and below 40Hz is up to the sample, stylus type and arm-matching. Tracking the same - mine was always fine, but others less so and a decapod style clamp helps no end - I played a fair bit of classical music but no massed choirs... Spatial depth is natural and realistic, rather than the euphonic glow and compression so beloved of "analoguey" enthusiasts.

Marco, your Croft will LOVE a well fettled Decca - a marriage made in heaven I promise. I used my first SMA4PP as well as the vastly underrated ARC SP14 (doesn't sound thick and squadgy like earlier ARC valve models like SP8's and SP10's).

hifi_dave
16-09-2009, 09:02
Varun, re-tipping by a third party is definitely not recommended because it is unlikely you will find anyone with the necessary specialist knowledge to operate on a London or Decca. Also, the people who make them now, do an excellent re-tip and overhaul starting at £169, so why bother with any other ?

I wouldn't like to recommend you buy one because you might not like what it does. It has clarity, speed and prescence like no other but it is bright in a natural way. I wouldn't like to say categorically that you would like any cartridge be it London, Koetsu, Lyra, ZYX or whatever. Your tastes may not coincice with mine. You need to audition it first.

G.Wazoo, the Super Gold DP (with pod) is £699. I've not found that they mistrack any more than any other cartridge but, then again, I've only used suitable arms. You'd have the same worries with a Koetsu, Lyra or any other decent cartridge requiring a good arm. You won't have problems with a Zeta but if you did, the red plastic bracket will ease the transfer of energy.

Marco, anytime you're around just give me a bit of warning in case I'm busy or out and about. As for the 40.1, I'm still waiting for them to arrive. Harbeth are in no hurry with full order books to the Far East, so I have to plead and beg and shed some tears to extract speakers from them. I'd better get my hanky out.

hifi_dave
16-09-2009, 09:14
DSJR, the early SP8 with large powersupply was good. I had the first one that Ab Sounds brought in as an experiment to see what tubes sounded like. It was far better than later models with small power supplies but noisy as heck. :scratch:

Then came the SP10. At the time it was the price of a decent car but it did sound good. As for noise - it was like having Luton Airport right next door and you could play tunes by touching the controls or casework.:lol: We put up with it for a while and we had a steady trickle of people prepared to splash the cash and then along came Glenn Croft.

Crofty's amps were SILENT and you could thump them without a noise through the speakers but most of all they sounded better than the ARC's and were a fraction of the price.:ner:

Just goes to show that you don't need to spend a fortune to get a decent sound.:gig:

bigmoog
16-09-2009, 09:52
I still own and occassionally use a SP-8 and 10.....with deccas:)


brilliant bits of kit, but of their time.

The Grand Wazoo
16-09-2009, 10:38
My SP8 is an early one – a Mk I (not that ARC ever gave it that designation). With careful selection of valves it's very, very quiet, and with proper attention to detail in the matter of how you site it, it's pretty much silent. I paid £750 for it in the early 90's & have never felt the need to replace it since, except when I think about some of the early Levinson pre-amps that I can't afford & never become available!

The SP10 eats valves like there's no tomorrow! But, yes, it does sound good.

The SP11 is still the one that has the reputation, but for phono, the 8 sounds better in my book (& that of others). When they designed the 11, & all of the subsequent SP models, they chucked the baby out with the bathwater by losing the all valve power supply. For the SP9, they took a compromised design & compromised it some more!

I understand Glen Croft spent some time poking around in some of the SP's & came away with some ideas that he used in the Micro.

hifi_dave
16-09-2009, 11:03
One problem with ARC and a lot of expensive gear is that they make them too complicated in an effort to provide better specs. I have always found that the simpler the better applies to most Hi-Fi.

When it comes to Mark Levinson amps, the older models are definitely (IMO) better than the later, very complicated designs and the very latest is a disaster which probably accounts for the small sales.

Glenn is a brilliant designer and enthusiast, he is always poking around inside things but I don't think the Micro has much to do with the SP8. 10, 11 or 15.:scratch:

bigmoog
16-09-2009, 11:22
well, the ARC SP8, wot I have owned since new (84 i think), having had a few fiddles over the years, still rates as a pretty fine Pre....its quiet...needs careful placement....makes lovely music...but is bettered by my modified Audio Innovations L1 surprisingly.

My SP10 which I did think of selling, but decided not to, is a noisy effer, fat and a bit cloudy but is a terrifically dynamic pre with my deccas


but really these two are 80s classics, over complicated and dated sound wise, possibly, but imho, not bettered by much in my listening experience and that includes later ARC pre amps.

DSJR
16-09-2009, 16:41
What is a good preamp? One which amplifies the input signal WITHOUT modifying it, or one which adds its own flavour on the way? Croft pre's do either, depending on the model, but I suspect the current ones are pretty faithful to the input signal.....

Varun
16-09-2009, 17:06
Dave (W);

I have just heard from VPI people-they say Decca is one of their favourite cartridges-not as sweet as Dyna (what ever that means) but fast and dynamic.
I do not have strong likes or dislikes- brightness if that causes fatigue is out-so is colouration which all Koetsu's have although after ESCCOs re-tip it was more neutral. So if the Decca delivers-that is all I need.

Good to hear all the conversation about SP8. I came very close to buying an SP8 but decided to move away from valves because of their maintanance was becoming a headache for me. Plinius M14 is simply an outstanding-Phono-preamp.

Plinius amps are in the top league in my most humble opinion-but here they cost more than twice as much as in NZ. The same applies to hearing aids-which are almost a third in price in NZ.

hifi_dave
16-09-2009, 18:35
I'm pleasantly surprised to learn that VPI have even heard of London (Decca) cartridges let alone actually liking them. In my experience, very few people in the trade have actually heard London (Decca) cartridges, they are a well kept secret.:scratch:

For a number of years I was an ARC dealer but the reliability problems got me down and the performance just wasn't there to warrant the prices. We found that Croft, Tube Technology, Audio Innovations and EAR performed at least as well or better, were very reliable and cost just a fraction of the imported gear. Not all tube amps are problematical.

Varun
16-09-2009, 19:04
Dave,

It was the problem of finding someone somewhere to fix my 509s. I never bothered to try other valve power amps with the exception of VTLs- they were definitely better than 509s. The dealer I bought my Plinius from also sold VTLs so had the opportunity to listen.

Decca cartridges have a large following in USA. I ran into an article on Decca and London records last night. I did not know that red 'London' label was meant for USA and Decca black label for UK and that the black labels are generally better.

hifi_dave
16-09-2009, 19:38
It's a pity you had problems with your 509's. We have been selling EAR for around 25 years and I know the very first pair of 509's we sold are still going strong with their original tubes. We sold a lot of EAR and, to my knowledge, we have never had a faulty product except for the past few years when some of the amps are now twenty or more years old and need re-tubing. EAR do this and any servicing for a couple of hundred pounds, which is extremely reasonable.

We also sold the original VTL products when David Manley lived just up the road. Here, VTL morphed into Tube Technology and they were good - not so reliable as EAR but providing better sound than ARC or CJ at 1/3 the price and no noise problems.

When you say 'Decca cartridges have a large following in the USA', are you referring to Decca which are vintage now or London which are current ?

bigmoog
16-09-2009, 20:19
years ago I ran a decca gold into a Rose RV23 preamp....that was a nice sounding bit of kit...sold it:doh:

DSJR
16-09-2009, 20:52
I want to hear if the old 4RC/C4E models can be made to shine better than the cheaper london models (more solid build and bodies...).

bigmoog
16-09-2009, 20:57
I want to hear if the old 4RC/C4E models can be made to shine better than the cheaper london models (more solid build and bodies...).



I put an old C4E and a london international arm into my special cryo-freeze chamber (Indesit upright) over night (I read about cryofreezing hifi in an audifoo mag)....once defrosted, the stylus snapped off:scratch::doh:

Clive
16-09-2009, 21:00
Varun,

As you appreciated my mention of Rollins / Sax Colossus in the London review, I re-listened to it last night with my ZYX (the London was out on loan), tonight I listened with the London Jubilee. The difference is staggering. The London is so rich sounding, really strong percussive imaging, so full of life and palpability. Frankly between the two it's hard to do justice with just words to describe the difference. It works for me!

Varun
17-09-2009, 06:34
Thanks Clive,

The side 2 of the record Sax Colossus is perhaps the greatest piece of virtuosity- not show off- I know (my humble opinion again) and the track 2, Sonny R's own composition just shows what a man he was. This is the kind acoustic recording I have been talking about. I only use LPs like these or classical to check out Hi Fi equipment.

I have quite a few Rock and Pop records-but do not use them for the purpose. I may do so at home as the short tracks are easy to get over with.

So I have been planning to make a trip to Saffron Walden. I won't drive- would cost me the equal of the bottom end Decca. But then the nearest train station is 2 miles. The plan would be to meet up with my son and daughter-both live and work in and out of London.

Varun
17-09-2009, 06:45
Hi Dave (W),

The 509s had a problem with in a few weeks- so TdeP asked me to deposit them in a Recording Studio in North London. I had to send them off once more before I left for NZ ( within six months of purchase). The valves had a limited life span-and then I had to have it fixed twice in the next 10 years. There were hardly any electronic people who were prepared to do the job. I once rang TdeP to say that a particular man who was recommended by every one was having problems and TdeP said he is an "A... Hole". I would have changed the valves 3-4 times in 10 years. Every time I ordered valves- half of them were found to be no good.

Do not know much about VTLs- but the Plinius phono-Pre-amp was way ahead of their cheaper phono-preamp at the about an equal price level. I am talking about their huge expensive mono-blocks of late 90s.

hifi_dave
17-09-2009, 08:54
Varun,
What can I say ? You have been most unfortunate with your amps. As I said, we never had any problems at all and the amps are so simple that any engineer with a little tube knowledge would be able to fix them. Faults with tube amps are usually tube related anyway.

Oh well, you're happy now. :)

hifi_dave
17-09-2009, 08:56
I want to hear if the old 4RC/C4E models can be made to shine better than the cheaper london models (more solid build and bodies...).

So what's stopping you ? I've got one which has been nuded and fitted with bolts to go straight into a headshell. Simples.:ner:

Varun
17-09-2009, 17:21
Hi Dave (W),

I may be exagerating- it was perhaps one repair job here and TdeP had left the amps at the recording studio for me to collect. It was the valves and difficulty of obtaining them was the last straw. If I remember- I had imported a dozen of them from UK but many failed to perform. As I have no expertise in soldering- I tried it once and made a bad job of it-I had to cart them to other places.

Had the amp taken valves that needed to be plugged in-I could have stayed with them. I still was very proud of the 509s-but looking back feel that the 802 was the weak link and 834P even worse.

I then decided never to have valves again and never to get involved with class A/B designs. So it had to be Class A solid state.

I honestly do not believe that any A/B design including Naim-stands the foggiest chance of competing with class A designs.

hifi_dave
17-09-2009, 18:42
The o/p tubes in the 509 mono's are soldered in place for ruggedness and performance but they shouldn't need changing for years. As I said, the first pair I sold 25 years ago are still going strong with the original tubes. Another thing, the EAR amps don't use fancy or exotic tubes but easily obtainable and inexpensive ones. Part of Tim's philosophy.

It's a shame you had trouble and then problems with service. I guess nothing can be 100%. Good job you didn't have ARC, I lost a lot of money with that brand.:doh:

DSJR
17-09-2009, 21:03
WITH MODERN TRANSISTORS and a bit of knowledge, there's nothing wrong AT ALL with class B amplification, as these things are so much more capable than thirty years ago. Class A was only used in solid state (anyway) because the transistiors weren't as linear as they are now. Class AB can be a bit of a bodge as the bloomin' circuit doesn't quite know what it's doing :D

P.S. Dave (W), you know exactly why I can't currently visit - it's called WORK (even if much of it is unpaid...:(). I've spent the day in sunny Chelmsford on a course and the best bit about it was the clock chimes from the nearby cathedral.........

Varun
18-09-2009, 18:42
May I please ask if the Linn and Naim amps are B class? Then what about SE, Push and Pull and the third Valve type - Ali was talking about-How do they differ?

To me the ability to deliver the power instantly when needed is the crux of good amp performance. Like to know which Class B's come up to the same level as Valves and Class As?

DSJR
18-09-2009, 19:35
The "class" of amp has little meaning if the designer know's what they are doing AND USES MODERN COMPONENTS!!!!!!!!!

Back in transistor's early days, the devices weren't as linear and capacitors could be physically huge for a given power-supply value and so compromises had to be made - class A to counter crossover distortion in class AB and B amps back then. Tons of global feedback was also used to bring THD down in level (instead of local feedback where necessary). Star type earthing didn't begin to happen with solid state domestic audio until the early eighties, when Denis Morecroft (DNM) showed what could be done.

These days, Class A is hideously inefficient, saps power output un-necessarily and, IMO, is a throwback to past times. Naim used an old quasi complimentary design (used when the output trannies weren't as capable) and may still do so in their current models for all I know. My amp uses a predecessor to the Quad Current Dumper, a Class AB driver feeding a Class B output, kept simple on my amps compared to the more complex bigger Crown models. I get "music" at most volumes with a high degree of clarity and I couldn't give a stuff what's inside.........

hifi_dave
19-09-2009, 09:24
I've never taken any notice whether an amp is Class-A, B, AB or if it's solid state, tubed or hybrid, Mos Fet, V-Fet, it's all irrelevent. They are what they are and all that matters is what they sound like. IMO

Alex_UK
19-09-2009, 12:45
They are what they are and all that matters is what they sound like. IMO


And in mine too - (I wouldn't know the differences to listen out for anyway between all those options!)

You wouldn't not buy a sports car that drove really well just because it had "rack and pinion" steering instead of "worm and roller", would you? You'd buy it because it handled nicely. Well I would.

Varun
19-09-2009, 13:15
Dave (W)

You can not be serious- a man of your worldly experience. I have never heard of any class Bs but yes there are big differences- and I am sure you know more than anyone else Dave. Ask Mike Reed- another experienced audiophile how he feels about 509s versus trannie boxes.

I cite 2 experiences: My SA250 (A) was out for minor repairs- so the importer kindly loaned my a slim boxed-200 W/Ch Plinius. No where near my amp. Big difference- He knew it , I knew it and the manufacturers know it too.

Then about 2002/3, before my belongings arrived here from NZ, I was looking for a turntable. I saw an advert for a SME at Grahams HiFi and went to listen. It was being sold with a Lyra for just under £3000. The salesman had plugged the SME-into NAIM 140s and 803s and was most apologetic as he did not have anything better.

Why would people like Marco or AnthonyTD bother about having a better set up if a NAD32 did as good a job as anything else. It is hardly a question of liking something just because of how it sounds - or for most people how it looks. All cars run on 4 wheels so what is the big deal???

DSJR
19-09-2009, 13:27
Because they like expensive copper boxes, glowing bottles and having something that few other people either own or aspire to.... if they happen to sound right in their particular systems then that's fine by me..

Get real Varun. Noone who could afford an expensive "feel-good-to-own" amp would buy a Cambridge 840A instead, even if it added no "sound" of its own and measured the pants off the aforementioned valve amps (which it probably does). It's too cheap and has little "cachet." it's also a current product and not relying on 70 year old technology to work at all, let alone well....

I quite like the NAD 320/3020 series. No pretentions to grandeur and one is very pleasantly surprised when it communicates the musical message so well.

Me, I'm hoping to get my Quad II's going again and back in the system. They're as coloured as hell - i.e. they distort the signal fed them, but this colouration is SO addictive I can't wait to get them running again..... :) :gig:

Varun
19-09-2009, 13:36
BBC engineers always liked Quads- Dave (DSJR) you know with your in depth knowledge too what is better what is not. You once said "I wish I had bought 509s".

My Hi Fi experience after I replaced the Technics DD turntable with LP12 and the curved Rega arm- then started with Nytech and Mission 770s, then badly made- Norse Ecosse Electrocompaniet mono blocks and their own pre-amp- the knobs kept on falling off. In those days I was told that the Class A at 25 W/ch sounded better but bridged they sounded thumpier and louder-which I liked. Bass slam and thump and all that-I could not afford a Naim.

Rest is History.

hifi_dave
19-09-2009, 14:08
I've heard good Class-A amps and bad ones. I've heard good tube amps and bad ones. If I blindly (deafly) followed a design principal I could well end up very disappointed.

If it's a good amp, then it's a good amp and I care not what is inside. I use my ears not read what circuit topology is used.

Some years ago we had two amps from Tim De Paravicini - a tube design and solid state one. Both the same price with very similar specs and Tim had made them to prove that he could make a transistor amp that was indistinguishable from a tube amp. Prove it, he did !!! There wasn't a fag paper between the two and both were stunning. Kessler reviewed them both and concluded that there was no discernable difference.

Just goes to prove something or t'other.

Clive
19-09-2009, 14:18
If we compare amps that are competently designed then it is possible to hear the traits of valve SE, valve PP with capacitor coupling and valve PP with interstage.

I'd agree that with some other topologies & technologies the differences are far smaller. Of course with the amps I've mentioned you need to pair them with the correct types of speakers to get the best out of them to hear the differences - you do with any amp but more so with valves.

Ali Tait
19-09-2009, 14:20
For me it's nothing to do with what the amp looks like or what it costs.I use single-ended valve amps simply because I prefer the single-ended sound to push-pull(and yes,I have two PP amps!),and far prefer either to any solid-state amp I've heard.For instance,the amp I use the most is a cheaply made Chinese Audioromy using 813 valves that I bought from a friend for £200.It sounds glorious! I also have a huge Musical Fidelity A370-185 watts of class A.Sounds great but to my ears not a good as valves.If I thought it was better I'd use it and sell the valves!

BTW,I'll be selling the MF sometime soon,anyone interested?

kcc123
19-09-2009, 15:20
Hi,
Of all the cartridges I have come across, the Ortofon MC3000 mk2 has the best performance in the bass department and a huge dynamic swing that the others can only dream of. But how it compares with the Deccas? I do not know.

Clive
19-09-2009, 16:38
For me it's nothing to do with what the amp looks like or what it costs.I use single-ended valve amps simply because I prefer the single-ended sound to push-pull(and yes,I have two PP amps!),and far prefer either to any solid-state amp I've heard.For instance,the amp I use the most is a cheaply made Chinese Audioromy using 813 valves that I bought from a friend for £200.It sounds glorious! I also have a huge Musical Fidelity A370-185 watts of class A.Sounds great but to my ears not a good as valves.If I thought it was better I'd use it and sell the valves!

BTW,I'll be selling the MF sometime soon,anyone interested?
Ali, is the Audioromy the current FU13? Looks interesting.

Ali Tait
19-09-2009, 16:50
Hi Clive,
Yes it is indeed.Before going down the direct-coupled route,I was going to rebuild it with decent components and trannies.It looks iffy at best when you look at the gubbins,yet it sounds great.I thin it could be something really special when rebuilt.I don't believe the quoted output power,but I reckon it's good for about 30w,which is nice when you like SE amps and need to drive statics.

Varun
19-09-2009, 18:33
Well Dave (W) and Dave (DSJR), also clive and Ali,

We all know there are differences- only to be heard. By the way Dave (W) did 519s not have a different sound to 509s? I chose 509s as I did not like the warm valve like sound of 519s. I have said before- I had gone to audition Naim 135 or 140s in order to buy them. It happened by sheer chance and luck as I had my LPs in my carrier bag and was walking through Balham to the station and spotted a small Hi Fi shop. It was closing time but the owner allowed me to listen to the 519s. He was using Rock TT. I was simply stunned-bowled over. Did I ever want to return to Naim sound- you bet never.

We have drifted though from cartrides and Kcc123 is asking about cartridges- so your take Dave (W) or Dave (DSJR).

Varun
19-09-2009, 18:48
Clive or Jonathan might also be able to help Kcc123

hifi_dave
19-09-2009, 19:44
The 519 was the same amp as the 509 but with balanced inputs. IMO it sounded the same as the 509 as you'd expect but what did sound different was the 549. Rack mount, 200 watts minimum into 8 ohms, really big, powerful and ballsy, a great amp.:smoking:

hifi_dave
19-09-2009, 19:46
Hi,
Of all the cartridges I have come across, the Ortofon MC3000 mk2 has the best performance in the bass department and a huge dynamic swing that the others can only dream of. But how it compares with the Deccas? I do not know.

To be honest, it doesn't compare at all. To me the MC3000 is lacklustre, uncommunicative and just plain boring. It is sweet and clean but doesn't do anything for me. Of course, others will disagree.

Varun
19-09-2009, 20:15
I am trying to put together a selection of records-before I venture out towards Saffron Walden-to tease out weaknesses and strengths of the Deccas.

I will send my Koetsu to be checked out by ESCCo. They say that if the suspension is damaged then it is bad-not worth trying to fix. Otherwise I will have to use it to raise revenue- if that is to say Deccas are that good.

Would you say- Jubilee is the one for all seasons? and if so how much?

Clive
19-09-2009, 20:39
I am trying to put together a selection of records-before I venture out towards Saffron Walden-to tease out weaknesses and strengths of the Deccas.

I will send my Koetsu to be checked out by ESCCo. They say that if the suspension is damaged then it is bad-not worth trying to fix. Otherwise I will have to use it to raise revenue- if that is to say Deccas are that good.

Would you say- Jubilee is the one for all seasons? and if so how much?

Tough question to answer Varun. The Super Gold and Jubilee are both very worthy. I'm fully expect the much lower cost Maroon and Gold are too though I've not heard them. The Jubilee is quite expensive at I think £1299. It is a more complete and refined cartridge but so it should be for the money. I'm sure I don't need to say this but I will.....be really careful the alignment is spot on when doing the comparisons. I recently re-fitted my Jubilee and something wasn't quite right, my 78s with a Shure 95 (with 78 stylus) had more energy. I tweaked the Jubilee azimuth just a tiny fraction - listening to LPs not 78s - and the snap back into focus and return to brilliant performance was dramatic.

Varun
19-09-2009, 21:01
Thanks Clive,

Apart from re-tipping my Dyna or Koetsu, if the latter is salvageable which will cost around £300- the next option would be something in the region of a grand-although I rather not spend that much. I wonder if what you adjusted was the VTA?

Clive
19-09-2009, 21:15
Thanks Clive,

Apart from re-tipping my Dyna or Koetsu, if the latter is salvageable which will cost around £300- the next option would be something in the region of a grand-although I rather not spend that much. I wonder if what you adjusted was the VTA?
Definitely it was azimuth, I do have VTA-on-the-fly too but I didn't touch this. On my arm adjusting Az is as simple as twisting the headshell, the effect was more dramatic than a small VTA change. From out of focus to bang on.

Cotlake
19-09-2009, 21:49
Hi Clive,

That's interesting. About a year back, Noel Keywood reviewed a computer based system for cartridge set up by a German Doctor of Physics whose name I can't recall. he also presented a lecture in the WD room at last years Heathrow Show. He argued that there is hardly ever a manufactured cartridge which when bolted to the headshell has automatically correct azimuth. In consequence he stated that if you can't adjust azimuth at the headshell, sound will almost always be compromised. That arguement knocks out a heck of alot of current tone arms, including mine which has been suitably machined to present an exact horizontal headshell face :(.

Regards,

Greg

Clive
19-09-2009, 21:55
Hi Greg, it was Dr Feickert I believe, darned complicated software to measure and set azimuth. Ear will have to do for me!

http://www.adjustplus.de/index.php?lang=english

hifi_dave
19-09-2009, 22:17
All the adjustments are important. If you get the overhang slightly out, the stylus no longer fits the undulations exactly, it chisels it's own shape into the groove wall.

kcc123
19-09-2009, 23:54
To be honest, it doesn't compare at all. To me the MC3000 is lacklustre, uncommunicative and just plain boring. It is sweet and clean but doesn't do anything for me. Of course, others will disagree.

Hi Dave,

Well, I don’t really quite agree with you for your description of the MC3000 mk2, probably due to our different perspectives and systems.
One man’s meat is another’s poison; I think it is very true. For instance, when I listen to the Koetsu Black in my system, its treble is attenuated and dull, it simply lacks sparkles. Its bass is quite powerful but does not have the speed and articulation that I like. It has more or less an one note bass. So it is plain boring to me as well, I prefer the Ortofon M20FL to the Koetsu.

Varun
20-09-2009, 06:52
Hi King,

No problems with Koetsu black what so ever- it is a complete all around performer, but as you say, these things are system dependent and what you listen to.

Some people (like me) would question the need to upgrade ad infinitio-specially when it comes to cartridges. Was it Jimmy Hughes who stayed put with the basic AT cartridge all the time?

kcc123
20-09-2009, 08:40
Hi Varun,

I do like the seductive and magical mid band of Koetsu Black, but in absolute terms, it does not have the transparency and minute details that I would have expected for a cartridge of that price. The Koetsu Black would be completely transcended by the Ortofon MC3000 in this instance. I hope I would not offend the other Koetsu owners.

hifi_dave
20-09-2009, 09:41
Hi Dave,

Well, I don’t really quite agree with you for your description of the MC3000 mk2, probably due to our different perspectives and systems.
One man’s meat is another’s poison; I think it is very true. For instance, when I listen to the Koetsu Black in my system, its treble is attenuated and dull, it simply lacks sparkles. Its bass is quite powerful but does not have the speed and articulation that I like. It has more or less an one note bass. So it is plain boring to me as well, I prefer the Ortofon M20FL to the Koetsu.

Entirely agree, it's all about personal choice but I have sold the Ortofon's for so many years I can't even remember and in fact, I sold the first one in the country way back when. Of course, I have heard it in a wide range of TT's and arms with an infinite number of amps and speakers - that's what I do.

It's not for me neither is the 5000 but that's just me.

DSJR
20-09-2009, 09:51
The Koetsu Black models are rather different and far more "energetic" than the soporific Red models IMO. My Black K has lost a channel (I hope not at the coil end) but when it worked it was really good, with a bit of life, meaty bass (but not excessive) and clear treble. The later Black "S" had a bit more sparkle and, in my opinion, clearly out-performed a Troika in an Ittok. Not that many Linnies actually listened for themselves though..

Decca's are not for everyone though and can be unreliable if roughly handled, a buzzing starting up on long held piano or guitar notes. Once sorted, they're fine again (until the next time). This is one thing I'd expect to be sorted with the dearer models..

Varun
20-09-2009, 11:39
Hi King,

No offence at all as at the moment I am using Dynavector XX-1. The two (Dyna and Koetsu) have differences but both are excellent and meet all my requirements.

I can not comment on Ortofons as I have no experience.

NRG
20-09-2009, 14:57
All the adjustments are important. If you get the overhang slightly out, the stylus no longer fits the undulations exactly, it chisels it's own shape into the groove wall.

I very much doubt that. Getting the overhang slightly 'wrong' will just change where the null points are on the record. As the arm traverses the record it will have slightly more distortion at some points and less at others. The traditional swing arm is a set of compromises with the so called 'correct' alignment trading distortion at one point for more at another. Azimuth and cartridge skew are much more important than spot on overhang setting.

hifi_dave
20-09-2009, 15:07
You 'very much doubt that' all the adjustments are important ? Bugger, I've been doing it wrong for 47 years. I must remember to not get everything spot on from now on.:doh:

DSJR
20-09-2009, 15:13
Hey you two, it's a DECCA we were talking about and they have rules all their own ;)

NRG
20-09-2009, 16:37
Deccas may well do but I'd like to understand how a spherical stylus would gouge out its own groove or channel if the overhang was slightly out. 47 years of experience must have given you some 'insight'. ;)

Varun
20-09-2009, 17:20
Very interesting debate learned gentleman. I was reminded of the opinions expressed in the earlier thread on mistracking and VTA. I speak from total ignorance. Azimuth-I thought was set up by the adjustments of the arm pillar? because- how else would you do it in rigid arms with no headshell? I need some instruction please.

I mean like Clive adjusted the azimuth by tweeking the headshell- I am lost!

hifi_dave
20-09-2009, 17:46
Deccas may well do but I'd like to understand how a spherical stylus would gouge out its own groove or channel if the overhang was slightly out. 47 years of experience must have given you some 'insight'. ;)

I wasn't talking about spherical styli. The majority of talk here is about Decca's, London's, Koetsu's, Dynavector's, Ortofon's blah, blah, blah all of which have Elliptical, Fine Line, Shibata etc styli which all respond to accurate setting up. Obviously with a spherical stylus the overhang isn't so important.

hifi_dave
20-09-2009, 17:50
Very interesting debate learned gentleman. I was reminded of the opinions expressed in the earlier thread on mistracking and VTA. I speak from total ignorance. Azimuth-I thought was set up by the adjustments of the arm pillar? because- how else would you do it in rigid arms with no headshell? I need some instruction please.

I mean like Clive adjusted the azimuth by tweeking the headshell- I am lost!

Some arms allow the headshell to be rotated slightly so that the cartridge is perfectly horizontal or, of greater importance, when viewed from the front, the stylus is perfectly vertical in the groove.

John
20-09-2009, 17:58
Varum do hear the Jubilee first if you like warm and cuddly the Jubilee might not be the right Cart for you
For me its the best Cart I heard so far and just so musical but its not warm and cuddly

Varun
20-09-2009, 18:22
Hi John,

Warm and cuddly is the 50s sound and I doubt if there are many valve amps which do what was being achieved then. The amp I am listening to is a hefty Class A solid state. The designers aimed it to place its sound half way between edgy solid state sound and warm sound of valves. The EAR 509s also did not have a warm sound.

The question was could I live with it- most probably but it is a long time since I have heard valves sounding like that.

Like Marco 'nth' degree of detail is not what I look for but I am very keen to hear the Deccas.

John
20-09-2009, 18:29
Yes hear them and then decide for me the Cart just creates beautiful music

Clive
20-09-2009, 18:49
I mean like Clive adjusted the azimuth by tweeking the headshell- I am lost!
It's as Dave said, just rotate the headshell (actually also the carbon fibre wand in my case):

The degree to which I altered azimuth is really very small indeed, hard to perceive by eye.

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e359/cmeakins/0909200006.jpg

Not the exactly same wand/bearing carrier (it's pic I already had taken with a legacy35mm Nikon lens on my Olympus dlsr) but you can see how the wand can rotate in the bearing carrier.

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e359/cmeakins/Macro0007F32sm2.jpg

Here's the listening environment and rest of the system:

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e359/cmeakins/Room.jpg

hifi_dave
20-09-2009, 19:55
Clive, what's the arm ?

Clive
20-09-2009, 20:02
Clive, what's the arm ?
It's a Trans-Fi (Terminator) T3Pro. Low volume production airbearing linear tracking arm - low pressure air - no hissing.

I say low volume but I'm aware that quite a lot have been sold so whilst not sold in numbers like SME or OL maybe not so low volume.

Varun
21-09-2009, 06:42
Goodness Clive,

That system is most impressive- proper professional listening. I am not familiar with any of the pieces of equipment but people like Dave (W and DSJR) would know at the first sight. I presume you are running a long phono lead from the pre-amp to the amps and then short speaker leads and multiamped??

I would like to visit the gallery if you have placed the system there?

John
21-09-2009, 06:50
According to a mutral friend Clive has an amazing system

Clive
21-09-2009, 07:27
According to a mutual friend Clive has an amazing system
John, the system works for me and I'm really pleased that the general consensus of those who hear it really like it though my pleasure is ultimately a self thing - it's for me! It keeps improving due to my focus on detail changes of what is now a stable system rather wholesale changes. Enjoy your session today! Of course I have a front end change coming.....


I presume you are running a long phono lead from the pre-amp to the amps and then short speaker leads and multiamped?? I would like to visit the gallery if you have placed the system there?

Varun, I've posted a daytime pic of my system in the gallery with a list of the equipment. It's not what you'd call mainstream. 5m long line-level leads to the valve power amps and solidstate bass amps. Making this work well via my pre puts special requirements on my phono stage and bass section but that's a longer story.
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=3970

hifi_dave
21-09-2009, 09:05
Wot, no digital room correction ??? :scratch::lol:

Clive
21-09-2009, 09:27
Wot, no digital room correction ??? :scratch::lol:
Just on the bass, I have DSP for bass up to 100Hz.

Varun
21-09-2009, 17:04
Hi Clive,

I am most unfamiliar with individual units but that has to do with my limited knowledge/exposure. It has been, it seems, a very carefully selected, thought out and put together system. Each step taken to solve one problem.

I no longer worry about what other people think- so no longer spend time (or waste) listening to demos in shows etc. Having said that-a well set up system should sound as good as any. This is where names stop having any meaning-so much for mainstream.

Can we please have an analysis of the three cartridges you use for our benefit? What a luxury! Are they meant to be used for different types of records? or music?

Clive
21-09-2009, 18:37
Hi Clive,

I am most unfamiliar with individual units but that has to do with my limited knowledge/exposure. It has been, it seems, a very carefully selected, thought out and put together system. Each step taken to solve one problem.

I no longer worry about what other people think- so no longer spend time (or waste) listening to demos in shows etc. Having said that-a well set up system should sound as good as any. This is where names stop having any meaning-so much for mainstream.

Can we please have an analysis of the three cartridges you use for our benefit? What a luxury! Are they meant to be used for different types of records? or music?
Hi Varun,

For starters I should say that which cartridge sounds sounds best for you will be down to your taste and system synergy. I should also add that I have developed my system and taste over many years. I have built and tweaked a lot of equipment over the years, by going down this route I got to understand something about what's important for producing the sound I want, I'm not a design guru although I do have some electronics knowledge. All the valve equipment in my system I built, the power amps from kits, the phono stage from scratch - this was a co-development with a friend.

Ok, now for the 3 cartridges. They were a part of the journey. Initially I used the Kontrapunkt B (KB) on a Gyro with Orbe platter and OL Encounter arm. I've been unlucky with the KB in that this is the 4th one I've had, two developed a skewed stylus and the third was a "low rider". Henley Designs were very helpful and I had no issues getting replacements. The real journey with the cartridges started when I got my Garrard 301 and started building various plinths and experimenting with all sorts of decoupling too. I'm now much further into the journey with a slate plinth that provides a much more natural and balanced sound vs the wood plinths I made. I feel my current deck setup is a good one to judge the cartridges.

The KB has quite a big fulsome bass, very refined qualities and reasonable treble extension though I've never thought of it as bright, unlike various reviews I have read. I suppose I'd call this a consummate and high polished MC sound.

The ZYX was good for me for sometime as I wanted a more exciting sound with a brighter top-end. The bass is definitely less prominent and drier than the KB. The mid is less liquid and a little more obvious. The brighter top is there, a little CD-like perhaps but I mean that in a positive sense.

Bear in mind that I'm not looking for "edge of the seat" listening, I'm after a natural punchy, spacious, believable sound that conveys emotion. Something I can listen closely to or fall asleep too. I'm not into a mega detailed sound but I don't want to gloss over the details either.

Enter the London Jubilee. It has a rich mid-range, it's not shouty as some modern MCs can be. The bass is simply in a different league to the other 2 cartridges and frankly any other cartridge I've heard. Bass has texture, separation of notes & rhythms, the technology of the cartridge sets it apart from cartridges with long cantilevers that presumably get knocked around too much by the music to give musical bass. The Jubilee provides glorious imaging - bear in mind I use open baffle speakers and SET amps so this is a forte of the system. The Jubilee is for me so much more musical, a portrayer of emotion, provides a vivid and dynamic sound without being at all tiring. More treble than the KB but less than the ZYX. It is the icing on the cake with my system.

I only use the Jubilee now, I'd place the KB next with the ZXY not far behind but the gulf between the Jubilee and KB is wide.

I suppose I don't do conventional hi-fi anymore, I appreciate that for example an amp chassis hewn out of solid metal that can give it's own pleasure but I look deeper than that. A lot of my equipment, whilst not cheap, is not hugely expensive either.

Sorry I went on more than I intended!

DSJR
21-09-2009, 20:14
The Kontrapunkt's I've heard have been horrid, with bloated and stodgy bass (when many LP's don't have much) and a soft "over-analogue" mid and top - sickly yugh to me!!!

The R100 I heard sounded great with a deck featuring "correct" bass balance and an arm able to exploit it.

My Micro-Scanner Decca just made records sound closer to master tape (I had good copies then) than I'd ever heard before (and probably since). Decca's aren't an easy ride, but my god they communicate the soul of a recording mix like few others can.....

Varun
21-09-2009, 20:45
It seems Clive you have achieved what you wanted and an ideal listening set up as well.

It is the 'frisson' the delight and satisfaction that I seek now adays. I noted that many of the audiologues speak of alcohol as part of the listening experience. It used to be the same with me-but I have stopped drinking in the last 2 years. Only a dozen or more bottles remain in my expensive wine selection- most having been given away. Mersault 2002-a few left and I have a 1991 St Michael Shiraz from Australia- the second top Shiraz. And a few others.

Do you sit down in that room on that cushioned chair-with a glass from your own select wine collecting cobwebs in the cellar?

Clive
21-09-2009, 21:06
Sometimes alcohol but by no means all the time. I work from home a lot so I can dip into music during the daytime - it's better not to drink the daytime! But yes sometimes it helps the relaxation and enjoyment.

Clive
21-09-2009, 21:55
The Kontrapunkt's I've heard have been horrid, with bloated and stodgy bass (when many LP's don't have much) and a soft "over-analogue" mid and top - sickly yugh to me!!!

The R100 I heard sounded great with a deck featuring "correct" bass balance and an arm able to exploit it.

My Micro-Scanner Decca just made records sound closer to master tape (I had good copies then) than I'd ever heard before (and probably since). Decca's aren't an easy ride, but my god they communicate the soul of a recording mix like few others can.....
Dave, your feelings about the cartridges are close to mine, I suppose was guilty of using some reviewer-speak whereas you were shooting from the hip. ;)