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Tripmaster
10-09-2009, 12:11
Hi there!

I have a Garrard 401 that needs a little tweaking. First of all the lacquer on the control panel has started to craze and I wondered if anyone had a tip for restoring the finish.

Can you also recommend any suitable cartridges, arms and plinths without spending a fortune?

http://i374.photobucket.com/albums/oo189/Tripmaster_photo/Controls.jpg

http://i374.photobucket.com/albums/oo189/Tripmaster_photo/Front-6.jpg

Thanks

Richard :)

John
10-09-2009, 14:08
Try and give us an idea of what you willing to spend
You could get a good slate plinth for around £300 maybe a bit more or less
I let Marco advise around the arm and Carts but please give us an idea so we know how much you willing to spend
It is also worth thinking about getting it serviced by Loricraft they will really do a great job
You have a great deck capable of going up against the best so worth getting the basics right which for me would be a service and a slate plinth

Alex_UK
10-09-2009, 15:02
Richard - lots of advice in the thread I started - I'm in a similar posittion embarking on a 401 build - have a read through here: http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=3799

Alex_UK
10-09-2009, 15:14
But in summary, this is my plan/rough costs:

Loricraft Service/rennovation: £4-600
Slate Plinth: £3-400
Nagaoka MP 200: Cartridge £200
Sumiko Headshell £30
Replacement i/c mains cables £60
Loricraft Mat £60

C. £1,000 to £1,300 for stage 1 (I already have an SME 3009 arm - you'd need to allow for an arm too?)

Stage 2 will be a 12" arm, probably a Jelco 750 12" at c. £600 plus £100 for lead then think about the cart again...

Basically, invest 2 grand and you'll have a turntable capable of competing with the best, and will last you for life is my take on it, from the great advice from all on AoS. (Mind you, I'm also thinking I want to leave room for at least one more tonearm, so who knows where it could end! Then I'll need decent phono stage, valve amps, proper speakers... ;) )

Tripmaster
10-09-2009, 20:28
Hi Alex

Thanks for the link, that was a good read. My dad bought the deck about 20 years ago, it was unused and in the original box. He built the plinth and resprayed the chassis but its had little to no use in that time.

I also have what I believe is a Japanese SME copy, Acos Lustre and Glanz 681EEE cartridges, all of which I guess are poor at best.

I don't want to spend anything near the amount you have planned as I have very little vinyl and it might end up being a passing fad :doh:

Richard

Alex_UK
10-09-2009, 20:48
Well Richard, here's a slightly cheaper option, from a total amateur! I now await the experts to pull apart my suggestions!
Plinth (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/layered-ply-plinth-for-garrard-401-b-n-polished-wenge_W0QQitemZ330335657910QQcmdZViewItemQQptZTurn table_Parts_Accessories?hash=item4ce98a1fb6&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14) Slight flaw, but very cheap - £100
Arm (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/RB251-Tonearm-AO-Tested-2-Yr-Warranty-for-Rega-Linn-NEW_W0QQitemZ300341274657QQcmdZViewItemQQptZTurnta ble_Parts_Accessories?hash=item45edbc2821&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14) Predictable, but cheap(ish) - £120
Cartidge (http://www.musonic.co.uk/cartridges-nagaoka-c-4_22.html) Marco's recommendation - a Nagaoka - from £42.50.

Total cost - £260 - leave the switches, it's called patina! ;)

Just leaves a service... can't help on that (Loricraft basic is c. £200) - yet to post on the other forum, but if I can find anything out I'll let you know.

As I said, amateur recommendations trying to keep the cost as low as possible - at the end of the day you'll never lose anything on these components - but I await a beating from my learned colleagues! :)

DSJR
10-09-2009, 21:00
The Acos Lustre GS100 (?) was and still a great example of the type and should take any mid-grade cartridge with ease. A replacement exit cable should be readily available as I believe the plug and socket arrangement to be the MDIN as used by Jelco still. The bearings were pretty good as I recall, but Johnie at Audio Origami can fettle these as well as replace the inner wiring if you wish - worth it IMO... Either sell the Lustre on and save for a big (12") jelco 750, or use the Lustre and save for an eventual replacement of something like an SME M2-9

"New" trim bits were available not very long ago for the 401 and if the re-sprayed top plate is a bit ropey, Loricraft can professionally re-do it once the deck is completely dismantled.

Since these decks hold their value so very well these days, I personally think they're worth every penny to re-furbish..

Tripmaster
10-09-2009, 21:22
Here are a couple of pics

http://i374.photobucket.com/albums/oo189/Tripmaster_photo/P1010714.jpg

http://i374.photobucket.com/albums/oo189/Tripmaster_photo/cart.jpg

DSJR
11-09-2009, 07:07
The arm can be readily cleaned up - DO IT :)

The Stanton should be given another chance with a new genuine stylus, as Marco's experiences of modern ones is rather more positive than my decades old using of various ones, which had a falling treble response back then, despite a cleanliness in terms of definition.

One little tweak (following on from the Rega R200 - Planar 3 example) is to get some chunky wire insulation with an inner diameter the same as the "lateral balance weight." trim it to length and firmly push onto the rod before firmly pressing the weight against it before tightening the locking screw (easier done than typed by me)

Alex_UK
11-09-2009, 10:25
Knob Inserts Here

(No, this isn't an accidental "3 words daily" post! ;) )

Slatedeck Garrard Spares EDIT: ALEX_UK: LINK REMOVED

Alex_UK
11-09-2009, 10:30
Their servicing is detailed here EDIT: ALEX_UK: LINK REMOVED

Marco
11-09-2009, 10:57
Don't anyone go near Slatedeck at the moment. It has been suggested that they've gone bust but are still taking people's money from them and getting nothing in return!!!!

So stear clear, people, until or if the situation changes.

In fact, in the meantime, I will remove them from the Links Box.

Marco.

Alex_UK
11-09-2009, 11:55
Don't anyone go near Slatedeck at the moment. It has been suggested that they've gone bust but are still taking people's money from them and getting nothing in return!!!!

So stear clear, people, until or if the situation changes.

In fact, in the meantime, I will remove them from the Links Box.

Marco.

Sorry guys, hadn't picked up on that!

Alex_UK
11-09-2009, 11:58
I've removed my links - real shame, their decks look awesome.

Marco
11-09-2009, 12:10
Hi Alex,

They are/were, and Darren from Slatedeck was a nice chap to deal with. However, it seems that he's currently experiencing problems and I have to react to this information to protect the interests of our members.

Should the situation change, I will update everyone accordingly :)

Marco.

DSJR
11-09-2009, 13:00
There has been a lot of discussion elsewhere (VinylEngine I *think* or possibly the AO Crossover Network)but cannot be sure) regarding certain after market "mods" to the 301 and 401 bearings for example. I still think that Loricraft should be consulted for the deck itself, in the same way that Dave Cawley seems to be the main reference for the SL1200 :)

Is slate really *the* material? I thought the far easterners (*the* experts on heavy decks) went for marble instead :scratch:

Tripmaster
11-09-2009, 13:49
Hi

Would anyone happen to have a copy of the Garrard plinth plan? I wouldn't mind having a go at making one. And can you recommend a supplier for a replacement Stanton stylus?

I had the 401 in my bedroom when I lived with my parents, I can still remember its vibrant bouncy sound :)

Richard

John
11-09-2009, 14:01
Not heard a 401 on marble I guess it will all depend on the density of the material the more it draws up the energy of the motor the better

Richard this might help
http://www.audiomods.co.uk/garrard_manual.pdf

Tripmaster
11-09-2009, 14:19
Not heard a 401 on marble I guess it will all depend on the density of the material the more it draws up the energy of the motor the better

Richard this might help
http://www.audiomods.co.uk/garrard_manual.pdf

Thanks for the Manual :)

rahman
11-09-2009, 14:42
hi

re: bearing mods, have a look here:

http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue32/garrard_bearing.htm ; and
http://www.tnt-audio.com/sorgenti/kokomo_e.html

I'll seriously consider this mod if/when I get my 301 restored.

Alex_UK
11-09-2009, 15:03
This chap used a solid birch table from Ikea - looks very nice as a dual arm setup too...

Birch Table 401 (http://www.theanalogdept.com/brian_clark.htm)

More pics and useful stuff on that site too.

Tripmaster
11-09-2009, 16:02
Thanks Alex

I love the plinth on this 301

http://i374.photobucket.com/albums/oo189/Tripmaster_photo/JLGarrard301.jpg

DSJR
11-09-2009, 16:29
At a MUCH lower cost, HiFi dave had a lovely 401/Omega Point arm in a varnished Bastin plinth on display in his St Albans shop and although not as lavishly done, the effect was similar. Apparently, he sold it before moving :(

Marco
11-09-2009, 18:02
Trip (what's your first name)?

Where did you get the pic from? :)

It certainly looks 'interesting'... It's probably a little over the top, though. Love the Fidelity Research tonearm with Orsonic headshell - not sure what the cartridge fitted is, though... Could be a vintage Ortofon SL-15 or a modern Transfiguration. The other one on the side is obviously as SPU.

Marco.

Tripmaster
11-09-2009, 18:29
Trip (what's your first name)?

Where did you get the pic from? :)

It certainly looks 'interesting'... It's probably a little over the top, though. Love the Fidelity Research tonearm with Orsonic headshell - not sure what the cartridge fitted is, though... Could be a vintage Ortofon SL-15 or a modern Transfiguration. The other one on the side is obviously as SPU.

Marco.

Hi Marco

Here is the link

http://www.theanalogdept.com/jurgen_loos.htm

Thanks

Richard :)

Alex_UK
11-09-2009, 22:09
I love the plinth on this 301

Ahem, you didn't want to spend too much! ;)

Not sure what wood that is, Sheesham maybe? Very nice, whatever it is...

The Grand Wazoo
11-09-2009, 23:47
Looks like it could be Cocobolo (that's my bet) or very highly polished Zebrano (Zebrano is tricky to get a high sheen finish on)
Either way, not cheap!

Alex_UK
12-09-2009, 06:55
Ah - follow the link in #135 - "Garrard 301 on a custom Makassar Ebony plinth" A piece that big is going to be very expensive I'd wager... MakassarEbony Info (http://www.zuschnittholz.de/makassarebenholzeng.htm)

The Vinyl Adventure
13-09-2009, 16:42
is this any use?
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/GARRARD-401-CONTROL-PANEL_W0QQitemZ250495877543QQcmdZViewItemQQptZTurn table_Parts_Accessories?hash=item3a52b7c1a7&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14

Tripmaster
13-09-2009, 20:53
Hi

I am away on holiday this week and only have a slow mobile connection. I will check out your links when I get back. Thanks for the information :)

Richard

johnslate
15-09-2009, 20:03
Dear Tripmaster
My name is John and I make Slate,granite,marble,limestone decks and stands and speaker cabinets to bespoke designs and have made them for various AOS members please feel free to contact me for any help
www.slateage.com
hope this is of some help
John Rawlinson

Cotlake
16-09-2009, 18:35
Hi John,

Interesting. How does Westmoreland Slate compare in hardness and density to Welsh Blue?

Regards,

Greg

Primalsea
17-09-2009, 06:22
Hi, You could have a look at my 401 in the Gallery Pages. It started off as a Wooden Plinth made from a chopping board from Robert Sayle. Beechwoods bought it from me and used it on his Lenco. He has pictures to. Its thick and solid and doesn't look like a chopping when used as a plinth which is a defo bonus.

One thing I would say is check the rubber idler wheel, it may have cracked a bit with age. I repaired mine by cleaning it with meths and a toothbrush and then leaving it on the hot water cylinder overnight in a bag of cooking oil.

Alex_UK
17-09-2009, 17:19
One thing I would say is check the rubber idler wheel, it may have cracked a bit with age. I repaired mine by cleaning it with meths and a toothbrush and then leaving it on the hot water cylinder overnight in a bag of cooking oil.

How on earth did you know how to do that! well, you learn something new every day... off to check if I have any cracks!

Alex_UK
17-09-2009, 17:25
Hi, You could have a look at my 401 in the Gallery Pages. It started off as a Wooden Plinth made from a chopping board from Robert Sayle. Beechwoods bought it from me and used it on his Lenco. He has pictures to. Its thick and solid and doesn't look like a chopping when used as a plinth which is a defo bonus.

Looks good - heres's the link to save anyone else searching. http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=903

What mat were you using there?

Primalsea
17-09-2009, 18:14
It's a mat from a Dual 606 or similar. I also use a SDS heavyweight mat under it. It might sound strange to use such a matt but it has 2 raised rings giving it minimal contact with the record. This gets rid of many static problems.

I found out about the cooking oil trick from a guy who owns a company that formulates and moulds rubber components.

Tripmaster
17-09-2009, 18:46
Hi guys!

I avert my eyes for little more than a second and I return to see a flurry of posts!...thanks :)

I am still on holiday and only have my slow phone connection to view. If I don't respond to your post straight away you'll know why.

I've been thinking about making a plinth out of several layers of 18mm Baltic birch plywood, once glued I would veneer with an exotic hard wood.

Any thoughts?

Cotlake
17-09-2009, 19:33
Hi Richard,

If you are going down that route, can I suggest you do some research on CLD (Constrained layer Damping) plinths. This is a method of building a solid plinth as you suggest but in a manner that will allow the energy from the 401 to be efficiently sunk which is what is needed with these old idler/direct drivers. I'm sure a google will throw up loads of info.

The reason why Slate is often the favoured plinth material for these type of decks is because it is believed the structure of Slate is a sort of natural CLD structure as it is basically made from layers of fine sediment (hense its splitability for roof tiles etc) laid down in water, layer upon layer thousands of years ago, then subjected to heat and compressing producing Slate as we know it today.

SlateDeck does not appear to be trading at the moment but you might be interested in my assessment on how Slate made a difference to my 401.

http://www.slatedeck.com/turntables/Greg.html

Please note those DIY isolators have been replaced by the recommended spikes as they sounded better, but otherwise this is how my TT currently is and it has been successfully used at several World Design Hi-Fi Show presentations.

Regards,

Greg

Tripmaster
18-09-2009, 08:20
Hi Richard,

If you are going down that route, can I suggest you do some research on CLD (Constrained layer Damping) plinths. This is a method of building a solid plinth as you suggest but in a manner that will allow the energy from the 401 to be efficiently sunk which is what is needed with these old idler/direct drivers. I'm sure a google will throw up loads of info.

The reason why Slate is often the favoured plinth material for these type of decks is because it is believed the structure of Slate is a sort of natural CLD structure as it is basically made from layers of fine sediment (hense its splitability for roof tiles etc) laid down in water, layer upon layer thousands of years ago, then subjected to heat and compressing producing Slate as we know it today.

SlateDeck does not appear to be trading at the moment but you might be interested in my assessment on how Slate made a difference to my 401.

http://www.slatedeck.com/turntables/Greg.html

Please note those DIY isolators have been replaced by the recommended spikes as they sounded better, but otherwise this is how my TT currently is and it has been successfully used at several World Design Hi-Fi Show presentations.

Regards,

Greg

Hi Greg

I used a constrained layer when building my Brines TL Speakers

http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=3648

In an attempt to make the cabinet acoustically dead I bonded panels of cement board using a permanently flexible adhesive. The flexible adhesive is suppose to convert vibration into heat.

I guess I could apply a thin even coat of
adhesive between each layer of ply.

I will have to give this some thought if I decide to go down this route.

Do you happen to know if this method works with a TT?

Clive
18-09-2009, 08:30
Hi Greg

I used a constrained layer when building my Brines TL Speakers

http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=3648

In an attempt to make the cabinet acoustically dead I bonded panels of cement board using a permanently flexible adhesive. The flexible adhesive is suppose to convert vibration into heat.

I guess I could apply a thin even coat of
adhesive between each layer of ply.

I will have to give this some thought if I decide to go down this route.

Do you happen to know if this method works with a TT?
There are many versions of this that people use. Using lead between the layers with a natural glue seems well thought of. I used layers of birch ply, loads of work and small changes do make noticeable differences but slate is sooo much better that all my birch ply work was a waste of time. If it were me I'd simply start with slate.

John
18-09-2009, 08:43
John Rawlinson does fanastic work and great value too. His work with Tweelvebears loudspeakers just awesome!
I have a friend who is really good working with wood but he also like Clive now thinks Slate is the better alternative

Tripmaster
18-09-2009, 18:26
John Rawlinson does fanastic work and great value too. His work with Tweelvebears loudspeakers just awesome!
I have a friend who is really good working with wood but he also like Clive now thinks Slate is the better alternative

Hi John

Thanks for your input. I may well have a go at making a plywood plinth to start with and upgrade to slate at a later date. I enjoy building things and I have some of the materials to hand so its not going to cost much to experiment.

Is the lead sandwich the preferred method? Can you suggest anymore ?

Thanks :)

Cotlake
18-09-2009, 21:21
Richard,

As suggested you need to start doing your own search research to answer the questions you pose. This is a big subject with lots of info out there on the web. Both Clive and I and now John have suggested where you should go and Clive has made it clear that your intended route will not be the best option albeit we acknowledge it maybe a step forward. I feel you are being a bit lazy here. If you want to identify what is the best course for you, do some proper research and stop expecting others to hand feed you. A wood plinth as you describe will work. Explore CLD options that could include layers of lead, plaster, concrete, MDF and various options on glue and goodness knows what else. Otherwise, IMHO Slate is the preference.

Regards,

Greg

Tripmaster
18-09-2009, 22:27
Hi

I really appreciate all of the suggestions so far, and I don't doubt for a moment that slate is the best plinth material.

As I mentioned earlier in this post, I don't have a quick internet connection this week, and have been unable to achieve much more than my previous questions.

I'll start researching tomorrow when I return home.

Thanks for your time.

Best wishes

Cotlake
19-09-2009, 20:50
Hi Richard,

Sorry, I had overlooked that you had limited connection so If I sounded a bit harsh I apologise. No offence was intended. Exploring CLD options for TT mounting is interesting. In my view, the downside seems to be that if you want to get optimal results using wood as your main material, it seems you need to construct a pretty bulky item which often is not domestically acceptable. Slate can be both visually aesthetic as well as aurally first class. I would still advocate you looking in that direction and I gather it doesn't have to be as expensive as Slatedeck so possibly quite affordable. If you do want to think about slate, give me a nod and I'll try and point you to some possible sources.

Regards,

Greg

Primalsea
20-09-2009, 08:44
When I changed to a slate plinth I didnt notice a difference in sound quality. I'm not saying that slate is not probably the best, just that other things can be equally as good.
I would avoid random choices of layers on CLD just because they're cheap or easy to obtain. SDS (Sound Dead Steel) can be purchased cut to size. You may want to look into it and try phoning the company as they may have some words of wisdom on the subject that could be useful even if you dont use SDS in the end.

Clive
20-09-2009, 09:50
When I changed to a slate plinth I didnt notice a difference in sound quality. I'm not saying that slate is not probably the best, just that other things can be equally as good.
Paul, what slightly troubles me about your experience is that I'd expect slate to at least be different, whether you found it better or worse. Could something else to do with your deck be applying a strong sonic signature?

DSJR
20-09-2009, 09:54
401's do vary, some "rumbling" a lot less than most others (motor vibration etc). if you have a rare good 'un, plinth choice is far less of an issue.

Clive
20-09-2009, 10:33
401's do vary, some "rumbling" a lot less than most others (motor vibration etc). if you have a rare good 'un, plinth choice is far less of an issue.
Can't agree with you there, at least not taking into account my 301. My 301 does not rumble, it's a good 'un. I messed with all sorts of CLD combinations, always managing to make a difference and the differences were obvious. I never managed to put together a CLD combination that that had all benefits with no downside, some things would improve and others go backwards. With slate there was barely an area that wasn't better than the best CLD elements. For me this was really plain to hear.

DSJR
20-09-2009, 10:54
Please remember that I came into HiFi when the 401 was still being made and before fancy plinths were made for them or restoration was necessary. I had 401 using colleagues who had been through several samples before finding a "quiet" one. The NOS 401 from 1966 I bought in 1975 was horrid and a recording a customer made with his 301 had the familiar motor vibration coming through in quiet passages, yet a friend who restored a 301 and fitted it to a Bastin plinth (with Omega Point arm and VDH Decca) was thrilled with it (no noise at all).

lets be honest, late 401's date from 1976 at the latest and after thirty odd years will need re-furbishment. This, coupled with a decently designed plinth of whatever material takes your fancy, will negate much of my early findings with "new" samples of 401..

Clive
20-09-2009, 10:59
Point taken Dave. Would it also be fair to say that 401's at the end of their production run were probably the least well put together examples?

My 301 had a single owner before me. I stripped the motor, lubricated it, did the same with the main bearing, installed a new spark suppressor and that's it, that's my "restoration". Just a service really.

DSJR
20-09-2009, 11:11
Would it also be fair to say that 401's at the end of their production run were probably the least well put together examples?


To be honest and to be fair to Garrard, I suspect that "set-up" was probably more to do with it - setting the supply wires to the motor so the suspension worked better etc. The motors did seem to vibrate though and whether this was the prime cause of the motor "hum" that came through I don't know. Apparently, setting the eddy current disc on the motor shaft was important too.


What all you 301 and 401 owners need to complete the set is a decent condition Garrard chiming clock - they're fantastic and built like solid outhouses. I'll take some pics of a couple of mine, both in use (but not chiming ;))

Clive
20-09-2009, 11:17
What all you 301 and 401 owners need to complete the set is a decent condition Garrard chiming clock - they're fantastic and built like solid outhouses. I'll take some pics of a couple of mine, both in use (but not chiming ;))

I've only gone as far as a Garrard stylus gauge. The clock will be interesting to see! Instead of chiming does it rumble?:lol:

DSJR
20-09-2009, 12:10
No!!! :D

They had an interesting history from 1930 to the early fifties and only packed it in because of the cheaper German clocks (well made, reliable but cheaper to make) that flooded the post war market (Now where have I heard similar stories before?). Smiths did a "Ford Focus" with their chiming movements too, having thin, pressed wheels and "chime-work," fine fragile pivots but retaining 2mm brass plates. The result was a very reliable, low torque gear-train needing less power to make it work and stopping running when clogged with goo. Garrards though, tend to power their way through all obstructions, run dry and the pivots can wear as a result, but they're lovely examples of heavy-duty engineering..

You can see where my Aspergic tendancies also go, can't you. I wish I could strip out, clean and rebuild a clock movement as well as I used to be able to with auto-change mechs and cassette decks :)

goraman
05-02-2012, 00:49
The Garrard 401 came in two production runs, one run the timing light was flat the other run it stuck up some. Dose anyone know what run was the early production ?
The one in the picture is the one that sticks up.
And is one better than the other?
I have a good friend that wants an early production G401.

gortnipper
06-02-2012, 04:21
Flush mount strobe was early production. Supposedly they are the best of all Garrards. But I have a late 301 and a mid-production 401 - and they are both awesome!

See here (http://garrardmatters.freeforums.org/dating-a-401-t136.html)for a thread on how to date a 401.

goraman
07-02-2012, 02:44
Flush mount strobe was early production. Supposedly they are the best of all Garrards. But I have a late 301 and a mid-production 401 - and they are both awesome!

See here (http://garrardmatters.freeforums.org/dating-a-401-t136.html)for a thread on how to date a 401.

Thank you so much,My friend has a line on a very early one 1965.
These 401's are hard to find in the U.S. and to get a first run in near mint is even harder but I'm pretty sure his search is over.