View Full Version : The Pi bake off
cyclopse
08-05-2015, 19:14
Hot footed it over to User211, Justin this afternoon with the just received Pi-Dac.
Was great to be presented with an Apogee based system. Our musical tastes are similar which helped as well.
Found it very fascinating to watch the way the panels vibrate both LF and HF ribbon in response to the music. Think the bass panel must be equivalent in size three 18" woofers. Then there is the scale of the presentation, so much detail and with such intensity. Justin applied a high pass filter through the playback software but in my view this cut off a fair amount of detail. The source was a laptop via USB to the Lampizator Level 7, a brand I had not come across before. A substantial DAC with valve stages. And Justin demonstrated how the character could be changed following a valve change.
The valve power amps are obviously very capable to cope with the power hungry Apogee drivers. It was a high class sound that I could happily live with.
Onto the Pi DAC competing with the Lampizator. Boy was it playing up again with the IP addresses etc. With two IT power users we could not get it to play across the network. Then went for plan B to try some music files on a USB stick. Success, we managed to play one. Then tried to add another to the play list and couldn't manage it. Yes the Lampizator came out on top but I think Justin was surprised at the quality of output on offer from the Pi DAC. Need to get some more hours on it now and think about power supply options.
An enjoyable afternoon.
Regards
Stephen
Proof it really happened:
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-YK8SbC8GBvg/VU3mGVS5gOI/AAAAAAAACnI/y8hkqaYpGjE/w1060-h597-no/DSC02090.JPG
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-Q0S59s1DDoA/VU3mFpQqcaI/AAAAAAAACnI/jRN8tNPTwZA/w1060-h597-no/DSC02091.JPG
Actually I wasn't surprised at the quality of the Pi-Q as I decided a while ago Marco has a good pair of ears:)
We didn't get to hear much on the Pi-Q really as we spent so much time messing around with network configs, wondering why it stopped working when it seemed fine etc.
Comparing the Pi-Q to the Lampizator is completely unfair WRT price, and in comparison the Pi-Q offers quite a different presentation. It is relatively 2D and the sound seemed to stay in the same plane as the speakers. That said the sound was good I thought - clean, no obvious issues, enjoyable, detailed. The Lampi 7 sounds like more signal is getting through to the speakers even at similar volume levels but I really noticed this trait when comparing the level 7 to the level 4, so it seems to be a particular trait of the 7, which also excels with it's spatial presentation (3Dness).
As most people know a good 3D presentation is typical of valve output stage DACs, and I'd like to hear the Pi-Q running through a cheap Chi-Fi valve buffer (maybe a foo'd one with some quality replacement parts would be interesting) just to see what could be achieved in that area.
That said for £70 the Pi-Q is a bargain. I think it is only really for people who don't mind messing around with computers, though. Exploring all its capabilities may prove to be time consuming and frustrating, but some will enjoy the challenge I am sure. If your that type, buy one.
Oh Steve that track with the mega-bass - Boral Kibil - Wake Up. After you left I cranked it to see how far it would go and I was surprised how much further it did go without issues. I stood in front of the bass panel and looked down and I haven't seen bass panel excursion that marked before. They were literally going crazy.
I'm glad you enjoyed the Apogees, Steve. Intense is the right word they aren't an easy listening speaker. They are a "sit there in awe" speaker. For easy background listening they most definitely are not.
BTW I believe the bass panels are broadly equivalent to three 12 inch woofers per speaker, not 3 18 inch ones.
Plan is to play with the Pi-Q a bit more round at Steve's in the near future. Steve has some very nice kit so I'm keen to hear it:)
Floyddroid
04-06-2015, 10:48
Not for me i'm afraid. I heard one a few weeks back and it didn't impress me at all.
Proof it really happened:
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-YK8SbC8GBvg/VU3mGVS5gOI/AAAAAAAACnI/y8hkqaYpGjE/w1060-h597-no/DSC02090.JPG
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-Q0S59s1DDoA/VU3mFpQqcaI/AAAAAAAACnI/jRN8tNPTwZA/w1060-h597-no/DSC02091.JPG
Actually I wasn't surprised at the quality of the Pi-Q as I decided a while ago Marco has a good pair of ears:)
We didn't get to hear much on the Pi-Q really as we spent so much time messing around with network configs, wondering why it stopped working when it seemed fine etc.
Comparing the Pi-Q to the Lampizator is completely unfair WRT price, and in comparison the Pi-Q offers quite a different presentation. It is relatively 2D and the sound seemed to stay in the same plane as the speakers. That said the sound was good I thought - clean, no obvious issues, enjoyable, detailed. The Lampi 7 sounds like more signal is getting through to the speakers even at similar volume levels but I really noticed this trait when comparing the level 7 to the level 4, so it seems to be a particular trait of the 7, which also excels with it's spatial presentation (3Dness).
As most people know a good 3D presentation is typical of valve output stage DACs, and I'd like to hear the Pi-Q running through a cheap Chi-Fi valve buffer (maybe a foo'd one with some quality replacement parts would be interesting) just to see what could be achieved in that area.
That said for £70 the Pi-Q is a bargain. I think it is only really for people who don't mind messing around with computers, though. Exploring all its capabilities may prove to be time consuming and frustrating, but some will enjoy the challenge I am sure. If your that type, buy one.
Oh Steve that track with the mega-bass - Boral Kibil - Wake Up. After you left I cranked it to see how far it would go and I was surprised how much further it did go without issues. I stood in front of the bass panel and looked down and I haven't seen bass panel excursion that marked before. They were literally going crazy.
I'm glad you enjoyed the Apogees, Steve. Intense is the right word they aren't an easy listening speaker. They are a "sit there in awe" speaker. For easy background listening they most definitely are not.
BTW I believe the bass panels are broadly equivalent to three 12 inch woofers per speaker, not 3 18 inch ones.
Plan is to play with the Pi-Q a bit more round at Steve's in the near future. Steve has some very nice kit so I'm keen to hear it:)
I think we should be a bit more cautious before dismissing the RPi and DAC completley, there are quite a few s/w settings that can alter the sound presentation quite dramatically and without knowing what settings where used its very difficult to make comparisons.
Proof it really happened:
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-YK8SbC8GBvg/VU3mGVS5gOI/AAAAAAAACnI/y8hkqaYpGjE/w1060-h597-no/DSC02090.JPG
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-Q0S59s1DDoA/VU3mFpQqcaI/AAAAAAAACnI/jRN8tNPTwZA/w1060-h597-no/DSC02091.JPG
Actually I wasn't surprised at the quality of the Pi-Q as I decided a while ago Marco has a good pair of ears:)
We didn't get to hear much on the Pi-Q really as we spent so much time messing around with network configs, wondering why it stopped working when it seemed fine etc.
Comparing the Pi-Q to the Lampizator is completely unfair WRT price, and in comparison the Pi-Q offers quite a different presentation. It is relatively 2D and the sound seemed to stay in the same plane as the speakers. That said the sound was good I thought - clean, no obvious issues, enjoyable, detailed. The Lampi 7 sounds like more signal is getting through to the speakers even at similar volume levels but I really noticed this trait when comparing the level 7 to the level 4, so it seems to be a particular trait of the 7, which also excels with it's spatial presentation (3Dness).
As most people know a good 3D presentation is typical of valve output stage DACs, and I'd like to hear the Pi-Q running through a cheap Chi-Fi valve buffer (maybe a foo'd one with some quality replacement parts would be interesting) just to see what could be achieved in that area.
That said for £70 the Pi-Q is a bargain. I think it is only really for people who don't mind messing around with computers, though. Exploring all its capabilities may prove to be time consuming and frustrating, but some will enjoy the challenge I am sure. If your that type, buy one.
Oh Steve that track with the mega-bass - Boral Kibil - Wake Up. After you left I cranked it to see how far it would go and I was surprised how much further it did go without issues. I stood in front of the bass panel and looked down and I haven't seen bass panel excursion that marked before. They were literally going crazy.
I'm glad you enjoyed the Apogees, Steve. Intense is the right word they aren't an easy listening speaker. They are a "sit there in awe" speaker. For easy background listening they most definitely are not.
BTW I believe the bass panels are broadly equivalent to three 12 inch woofers per speaker, not 3 18 inch ones.
Plan is to play with the Pi-Q a bit more round at Steve's in the near future. Steve has some very nice kit so I'm keen to hear it:)
Been connecting up my uber mf buffer to the rpi iqdac combo but not overly expecting too much change tbh....slight misjudgement there:D
have to say it has done even more to the pi than its done to the cd player when connected.
A worthwhlie roll on the floor and shooting pains. think I can safely say its staying this way for a while. Better depth to the sound especially behind ..there feels like its more layered if that makes any sense. of course its a better than average buffer so cannot say what a chinese one would do for it. I had a yawin buffer but it was no match for this one..
Yeah that is what it needs Grant - a bit of 3Dness:)
TBH I used to use a cheap chi-fi headphone amp which you can pick up on ebay for peanuts as a tube preamp. Decked out with a Tesla E88CC it sounded great driving a Behringer A500. Well, great is probably exaggerating but I preferred it to a straight A500.
Add extra circuitry - get a better sound. Ridiculous really but there it is. It may not always work but those headphone amps are a great stand it for a proper tube preamp when funds allow. Assuming your (not you Grant, I mean in general) ebay one sounds like mine did which is a tough call as there are now so many different ones on ebay it is pot luck if you get a good sounding one I guess.
Yeah that is what it needs Grant - a bit of 3Dness:)
TBH I used to use a cheap chi-fi headphone amp which you can pick up on ebay for peanuts as a tube preamp. Decked out with a Tesla E88CC it sounded great driving a Behringer A500. Well, great is probably exaggerating but I preferred it to a straight A500.
Add extra circuitry - get a better sound. Ridiculous really but there it is. It may not always work but those headphone amps are a great stand it for a proper tube preamp when funds allow. Assuming your (not you Grant, I mean in general) ebay one sounds like mine did which is a tough call as there are now so many different ones on ebay it is pot luck if you get a good sounding one I guess.
Yeh the Chinese one was ok and with, as you say a better valve it was good. The M F one I have now is a different kettle of fish and does a very good job; but as you say you pays for it like most things in life.
On the way back from London, stopped off at Cyclopse's place. Pretty cool system - see what I mean...
Nagra VPAs
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/RYCk9aE2F2KtMolUhckd0swFLK1kVz993pWNTcx99dY=w1065-h599-no
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/0Vh3QXpBuowAyxH8WGnw631vEWH1fPwjvBUbD2zvLLY=w1065-h599-no
Raidho C1
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/WQqFs3N99lq_evHKpv9bm5XlTSG1bOMXzJq41-0Ludw=w338-h599-no
One of only 9 TTs of this kind - with Lyra Titan I, Shroeder tonearm, I'll let Steve tell you precisely what it is.
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/YcaVkxZGIjYlvNoIKDUZpTUxkn8iPn8clE0hkKm_oto=w1065-h599-no
Speed control for the TT
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/GsmICrIaCcn_zUsrwqNeNVDHoCWNxnXD0TxM0TObYhI=w1065-h599-no
Power supply for TT
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/c23vM3Rb7pzS2nawtWv6E_AGQhWhC_WcjzJ-TDbRZyE=w1065-h599-no
Dual mono Whest phono stage
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/XE0I9SVxlhFyHU2Pdnwkm9_grWKiZwetwn0xrMVdXVg=w1065-h599-no
Modwright LS36.5 pre with SoundBlaster E5 headphone amp (mine - to compare with the Pi-Q).
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/9f_hYVYDF1qcVTmW046VO9NkXLb9C_GPiFAGG9OlY_M=w1065-h599-no
Nagra CD transport
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/coG8f_MbDp_xiQW1_6rx1MhA37nTY0rxfcWGR9011H0=w1065-h599-no
Nagra DAC, TAG McClaren FM tuner
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-VWbrDuKSnhhbxsnO_vdm8PFNPUTt7qV-tlFiJiaIH8=w1065-h599-no
Nordost mains filter (Steve has a dedicated mains spur. In the back ground is the Pi-Q power supply.
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/O1t6sQmJMUJRl_K7vR_sQw3vIexf0j4kdnSM_5s5Z_E=w1065-h599-no
I thought I'd bring the Soundblaster E5 round to compare it briefly with the Pi-Q. We connected the SoundBlaster E5 (which has a line out socket) into the Modwright 36.5 and I drove the E5 via A2DP Bluetooth using downloaded lossless TIDAL tracks from the mobile phone (this is the setup I use in my car - connected to the AUX input of the stereo system). We compared it to the Pi-Q on a few tracks.
After doing so I asked Steve what he thought. He was off axis, but said basically what I thought i.e. the Pi-Q had more drive to the sound than the E5. He thought the E5 maybe had more detail. I'm not so sure about that - on axis I thought the E5 displayed a more spacious 3D soundstage and definitely lacked the drive of the Pi-Q.
So that is two systems in which I found the Pi-Q to be relatively 2D soundstage wise compared to other digital sources.
At the end of the day I'd rather listen to the Pi-Q to the E5, because the E5 doesn't have the balls to do really well on more dynamic sounding music.
This Pi-Q was being fed via a £500 power supply whilst the E5 was running of its battery so it didn't disgrace itself for what is a cheap unit really.
Anyway, onto Steve's system... which I'll post about later.
Whilst the prose will come later, here is a quick video of some Brubeck.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rn3oA0x5yKw
Wakefield Turntables
19-07-2015, 21:00
£50k EASY? Looks like Nordost valhalla cables.:stalks:
If purchased all at retail new quite a bit more £££s I think. That TT is expensive.
Whilst the prose will come later, here is a quick video of some Brubeck.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rn3oA0x5yKw
Nice, but did you listen to any REAL music? ;) Good result for the Pi!
On the way back from London, stopped off at Cyclopse's place.
Oh, so you can go all the way down to London for a bake-off, but not come up to Wrexham! :eyebrows:
Marco.
P.S Barry will get 'all excited' (possibly to the point of creating a damp patch) when he sees all that Nagra..............
No London was family dealings. Steve is a Bristol man.
Music was everything really - rock, reggae, electronic, acoustic etc. Steve has taste.
But you chose to swerve that and record the 'audiophile pap'...? ;)
Marco.
I wasn't really thinking about the music - just getting a video done of the kit.
Anyway, you should get your arse down here to get your ears and mind reset. Really, LOL.
Lol... Why - what in your opinion needs 'resetting'?
Marco.
I'm just trying to get you curious.
Go on nice drive in the Brabus.
Lol... Indeed, it would help run it in! :eyebrows:
No reason why not, but it would have to be later in the year when I've got less on. Steve's system looks great, and I'm sure sounds it, but if it were mine I'd need some 'big boy' speakers... Couldn't live with small stand-mounts, long term.
Marco.
Room is small listening is near field huge Tannoys etc are no go.
Sleep time more tomoz.
walpurgis
19-07-2015, 22:30
Room is small listening is near field huge Tannoys etc are no go.
Why?
My Cheviots are pretty big and work fine in my 11ft by 10ft den.
Coolio... :goodnight:
Marco.
Why?
My Cheviots are pretty big and work fine in my 11ft by 10ft den.
Just not necessary or required in there. Would take up too much real estate. Unlikely to produce a better result.
Suspended floor acts as a sub and the level of bass in there is more than I have heard from Raidho C1s at shows.
My speakers would be a disaster. Some large Tannoys I have known I feel sure would not be good/better than the Raidho's.
Anyway, here are some thoughts on the system.
1) The little Raidho C1.1 I have heard many times at shows. They are usually placed in free space well away from rear walls. They aren't that close to the rear wall at Steve's place, but they are in a much smaller room than is usual at shows, and live on a suspended floor.
They also live atop of bouncy stands. Touch the speaker and it sways back and forth. The speakers are superbly finished and look expensive - probably because they are.
I have heard larger Raidho's, but I am not sure how much better they'd do in this room. Bass levels, as I discussed with Steve, seem quite generous. I'd rather have a little too much bass than not enough, personally, so this is no bad thing. It may be that because the speakers is only quoted to 50Hz, the bass has been hyped a bit to give it the impression of having some:) This is a typical thing to do with small speakers.
Generally, the extension seems OK. The one obvious giveaway was Yello's The Expert, from Touch. There's a synth bass that drops in frequency for quite a long time. I only heard about what seemed like a third of it. This confirmed to me the speaker really doesn't go low. However, if you didn't know it was there I guess you wouldn't miss it, and the rest of the track sounded fantastic, as that album generally seems to on most systems. I'm not sure what gear Yello use but they are definitely to my mind using some sort of DSP.
2) The Raidho seems very free from sounding hard with anything that is played. This makes it very, very easy to listen too. There's a lot of detail presented in a very palatable manner, and it genuinely sounds very, very pleasant in this system across all the genres we tried.
The speakers form an equilateral triangle with the listening position, and there is a nice degree of separation or "freeness" between instruments in the soundstage. The overall presentation has to be described as warm, and with the Nagras heating up the space warm in certainly was. Mind you is was a hot day anyway.
3) Bass level may also seem generous because of the proximity to the rear wall and corners, and the suspended floor, which was definitely joining the party at higher levels. As I said I'd love to get a test mic in there and see what is really going on. The room has both diffusers and absorbers on the front and side walls.
4) The Nagra amps seem to match the speakers very well. As Steve says they just sound right. I tend to agree. Steve is just using some cheap Shuguang 845s at the moment, but wants to explore other 845s. As I said, the cheap Shuguang 211s are surprisingly good, but do not compete with the likes of NOS Amperex in my system, so tube rolling would definitely be worthwhile I think.
5) The Modwright 36.5 I believe has stock valves in - a 5AR4 rectifier and some 6H30s. The website says the GZ34 is an upgrade. If I were Steve I'd be rolling these too, but I have no experience of 6H30s or GZ34 so I have no recommendations. I do find valves to be critical in preamps and power amps though so there is a lot of opportunity to be had here to fine tune the system to Steve's taste.
6) The TT sounded great on Brubeck but we didn't explore much more.
7) Great system overall. I'd like to hear the Raidho's on non-floppy stands just out of interest. Easy enough to try - I have something that would do the job.
Thanks Steve for letting me share. Despite the bass comments the system really was VERY enjoyable and definitely "up there". It is certainly a change from mine, being really quite different. The quasi-ribbon tweeter in the Raidho deserves a mention - it must be one of the least objectionable HF reproducers out there. Well worth a listen.
Went round to Steve's again yesterday, deaf in one ear due to an ear infection, which is on the mend now.
Things have changed with Steve now using one of these. Nice.
http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g436/User_211/Cyclopse/Atlas_zpsrkcnaukl.png
http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g436/User_211/Cyclopse/DSC02901_zpsjkar3unt.jpg
http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g436/User_211/Cyclopse/DSC02900_zpsqbnqztsm.jpg
Using the one ear, I think I established this cartridge is definitely OK:lol:;)
What's that wood stick holding the cartridge?
Steve has ditched the Nagra VPA and Modwright 36.5 pre and is now using this class A Vitus SIA-0025. 25 Watts in class A, or you can extend that from 25W to 100W by switching to class AB. At normal volume levels you can't hear a difference between the 2 modes, because it is probably operating entirely in class A. However, with the wick turned up on the 88DB efficient speakers, the appears to be a marginal improvement is the bass response in class AB. That is, marginal with one ear. Interesting.
http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g436/User_211/Cyclopse/DSC02905_zpsijmsg9ni.jpg
What's that wood stick holding the cartridge?
Some piece of shite Steve found down at the local rubbish dump I think:D
Digital duties are now Meitner. We listened to it using Apple Music, but spent most of the time checking out the TT. Or at least I did:)
http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g436/User_211/Cyclopse/DSC02903_zpse9uzvrwk.jpg
Steve prefers the Vitus to the Nagra VPAs, saying it doesn't draw attention to itself. I am a sucker for big triodes, and am not so sure I prefer it to the Modwright/Nagra VPA combo. It is certainly different, and I'd want to keep a valve and SS option just for the sake of change. But there's now quite a bit more space in the room, and a lot less heat. Running 4 845s in a small room really can get awkward, especially in the summer, so it is a change the brings about an overall improvement in comfort levels, together with a far more solid state sounding picture of things.
This is a pretty serious integrated amp. Power wise it certainly copes with the Raidho's without any obvious issues. I can't really nail it for any flaws, because I didn't hear any. As Steve says it doesn't really draw attention to itself. Therefore, by that criterion, logic dictates it must be and is a top performer!
Evaluating Steve's system with one ear is really not that sensible. When I can hear properly again I'll doubtless pop around again. Suffice to say with the limited amount I could hear the TT and Atlas cartridge appear to be absolutely top flight.
Thanks to Steve for having me round.
Here's a couple of room pics as it now stands:
http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g436/User_211/Cyclopse/DSC02898_zps6fwxweye.jpg
http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g436/User_211/Cyclopse/DSC02899_zpssyy76ylf.jpg
jandl100
30-12-2016, 15:34
Coo - a proper high end audio extravaganza. :eek:
Looks fabulous. :thumbsup:
From The Auteurs album New Wave. Playing this back here doesn't sound anything like it was in Steve's room so take it with a pinch of salt. Quite bass light in this recording... as are all the movies I take shot with this camera. Mids and highs are never that great either. Unsurprising.
So just a bit of fun, then. If you are wondering I am playing with the volume whilst this was shot at various stages.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PoeLUUTUeys
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