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View Full Version : What't the problem with Linn & Naim..?



Alex_UK
03-09-2009, 07:31
Copied from a thread last night, that it would be unfair to hijack - sorry Hamish...

OK, I was going to raise this on another thread, but thought better of it at the time, but it's late and I've poured the 3rd glass... Can someone give a relative newbie a potted history of what the "problem" is with Linn & Naim kit? I'd always thought they were well regarded, but that is probably just a product of the corporate marketing machine - I have no experience of either - but I have definitely picked up on the "negative" vibes on here, whether intended or not... (lights blue touchpaper, and retires... )

I look forward to some interesting opinions (we do allow opinions on here, don't we - unlike some other forums :smoking:!)

REM
03-09-2009, 08:28
:popcorn:

hifi_dave
03-09-2009, 09:33
Similar questions to this invariably stir up a lot of love V hate and aggression on the forums. Hopefully, not on this relatively peaceful place.

I haven't got a great deal of experience of Linn since they started to major on home cinema and multi-room products. It's not my thing and what I have heard lately really doesn't interest me. Others will disagree.

Naim products sound good to me (others might have different opinions) and are well thought out, well made, reliable, and have the best back-up service. They aren't continually changing the models and their products have good resale value if you want to move on or up. Few other ranges offer these advantages in my experience.

Spur07
03-09-2009, 10:02
Alex,

I don't know much about Linn, but all I've ever owned is Naim gear since the early 90's.

As far as I can make out there are a number of reasons why people dislike Naim, all of which are quite understandable imo. Some people would describe the Naim sound as up-front, lean, tight, fast and exciting, with very little colouration - others would describe it as wham, bam, fizz, bang, pop - a sound that may seem exciting at first but ultimately reveals itself to be cold, harsh and fatiguing. Most people who prefer the analogue, warm sound of a valve amp wouldn't be too keen on Naim I'd imagine, (although some people mix and match valve pre-amps with Naim power amps).

The other problem is that many people dislike their business model of encouraging people to participate in the practice of 'upgrading', particularly in relation to the use of add-ons like power supplies, etc. If it needs a PSU to sound better, why not just build it better in the first place, is often the reasoning. They think it leaves people constantly dissatisfied with their equipment, always wanting to change and upgrade, and many people believe this is linked to cold, fatiguing quality of the Naim sound.

And finally, if you were to spend any amount of time on the official Naim forum it may well be enough to put you off Naim for life. People may disagree with me, but it doesn't do the brand any favours imo. For starters, there's just something vaguely fascist and cliquey about it - the complete antithesis to the AOS I might add. Sure there's plenty of decent, helpful people, but then there's the other side - and you don't need to be Sigmund Freud to know exactly what it is about the internet that attracts people like that. I've even seen the moderators post pointless, sarcastic comments in answer to questions from newbies - kind of says it all, really.

Alex_UK
03-09-2009, 10:11
Thanks Dave - I have to say I have been thinking recently that given the amount I have spent on kit that has broken in the last 15 years I would be better off biting the bullet and getting something that will hopefully outlast me, which is what Naim stuff always looks like it will! I have to also say that the new Uniti is a very innovative product - and would seriously be something I would consider.

No Experience of Linn really, but the names annoy me - Majik, Akurate - Klimax for god's sake! (I'll say nothing more and leave Marco to come up with the relevant double entendre... ;) )

(Loved your post by the way Ralph! :D )

Alex_UK
03-09-2009, 10:15
Spur07 - thanks for that, a very even-handed summary I think, though of course the business model argument could easily be turned the other way - you can gradually improve the system rather than shell out the extra to start with (where's my hard hat... :) )

Spur07
03-09-2009, 10:33
Alex,

yeah, and that kind of business model is practiced by other companies also. Personally, I think in that regard the criticism is a bit harsh. Check out the DIY section of Pink Fish - Hamish Gil has started a thread about modding his Naim Nap 180 and its caused a bit of a stir, but it provides a lot of useful info for people thinking of getting Naim gear or improving it.

chrism
03-09-2009, 11:02
I used to own Naim kit starting with a 42/110 and ending up with a 52/250 set up. I really liked the sound but always felt guilty spending so much on it (spread over a long period though). Really hated the recap costs as well.

So about 4 years ago I decided to try some alternatives and found Avondale in Chesterfield. I started with a Les modded 62/APX4 power supply which sounded just as enjoyable as the 52 so that went first. Next was the 250's as again the A260 just sounded better to me in every way.

My good old CDS1 has now gone as has my preamp as I really like Stan's Caiman and took the opportunity to go to a low cost streaming solution.

The upshot, Naim is really good but now I have a system at less than a quarter of the cost, a tiny number of boxes and a sound that I prefer too. I am now interested in modding which if I had not gone the Avondale / Beresford route I would not have tried.

I think that Naim is a popular route as it is an easy way to build a system. The alternatives do involve a lot of trial and error and a willingness to tweak.

Regards

Chris

The Vinyl Adventure
03-09-2009, 11:25
Alex,

yeah, and that kind of business model is practiced by other companies also. Personally, I think in that regard the criticism is a bit harsh. Check out the DIY section of Pink Fish - Hamish Gil has started a thread about modding his Naim Nap 180 and its caused a bit of a stir, but it provides a lot of useful info for people thinking of getting Naim gear or improving it.

that thread is exactly what i hate about naim! some people are so convinced that there is no other alternative it drives me mad
its also far to expensive!
linn im not so sure on, as although my hifi is naim/linn i was that blown away by the ds kit i just bought the most expensive one i could afford and didnt really take any notice of the rest of thier range
naim kit, in my view, speaking from experience has to be quite cleverly selected!

i for example would never by a naim source (maybe the 555 if it wasnt so many £££££) i dint like how my cd5 sounded and i dont like the cdx2 both far to shouty!
the hdx is poorly thought out and WAY to much money!! why they put the hdd inside it is beyond me!

the aplification to my ears though is top notch!
the problem for me - im starting to out grow it, dont get me wrong i love the sound... i just want something a little better
so whats the next step? 282/hc/250? well i have a hc so thats £1000 i dont need to spend! but where am i going to get the other £6250 .... £6250 for the next logical upgrade!! i could get it second hand for maybe £4000 .... eff that

so whats my alternative skimp and save for baby step upgrades for the rest of my life, or try and find a company like avondale that make what apear to be highly regarded equipment for much less money because they have next to know overheads....
erm yeah ... i think il do that thanks!!

and dont even get me started on the rude, arogant, morons on the naim forum... talk about eliteist atitude.. that place brough the worst out in me to a point i was going on there to try and get a reaction.... tossers the lot of them (apart from norman and ian)

to summerise, for the most part i love naim kit (apart from the sources) the speakers and amps are fantastic... overpriced, but very good none the less.
edited :)

The Vinyl Adventure
03-09-2009, 11:28
should i edit out the bit i call them nazi's ... serious question... have i gone to far?

worrasf
03-09-2009, 11:29
I personally dont think there is anything wrong with Linn/NAIM kit - in fact it's very good but IMHO there are issues. Until a year or so ago I was a dedicated Linn/NAIM chap LP12/Cirkus/Valhalla/Ittok/Troika NAP32.5/HiCap/250 so it doesn't come more purist than that. The constant talk on NAIM forums is PRaT (pace, rhythm and timing) and to be sure the "NAIM sound" is fast and dynamic (foot tapping)- in the same way that Linn KAN Mk1's were - but somehow I always felt there was life outside of Linn/NAIM - the problem was that as someone else has mentioned its all too easy to get locked into the corporate upgrade structure so rather than changing to something new (?better/different) you end up with more of the same because to make the change often means junking all your kit and starting from scratch - mucho moneyo:confused:
NAIM gear is bullet proof and they will service anything they have ever made so if you like the sound they make it can be a really good investment - I also think the chrome bumper stuff looks the mutts nuts and IMHO sound better than the later kit.
Linn - well in the early days they were pretty much the only game in town and Ivor was a pioneer but it was never cheap and still isn't - I also was never really sure the suspension was 100% - it may have been when the dealer set it up but then the trip back in the car and re-install? However, I still reckon the Troika was the best cartridge ever ever and I do miss it.

Anyway, I took the plunge and had a total change and have never looked back - The enjoyment I get from my current kit (see my profile or welcome post for details) is far more than I did with the Linn/NAIM stuff which was sterile in comparison.
As always let your ears be the judge - my view is if you like the Linn/NAIM sound and dont mind possibly locking yourself into a philosophy then buy it - it's well made, reliable, repairable and sounds very very good - I just like my kit better:)

Steve

The Vinyl Adventure
03-09-2009, 11:31
I used to own Naim kit starting with a 42/110 and ending up with a 52/250 set up. I really liked the sound but always felt guilty spending so much on it (spread over a long period though). Really hated the recap costs as well.

So about 4 years ago I decided to try some alternatives and found Avondale in Chesterfield. I started with a Les modded 62/APX4 power supply which sounded just as enjoyable as the 52 so that went first. Next was the 250's as again the A260 just sounded better to me in every way.

My good old CDS1 has now gone as has my preamp as I really like Stan's Caiman and took the opportunity to go to a low cost streaming solution.

The upshot, Naim is really good but now I have a system at less than a quarter of the cost, a tiny number of boxes and a sound that I prefer too. I am now interested in modding which if I had not gone the Avondale / Beresford route I would not have tried.

I think that Naim is a popular route as it is an easy way to build a system. The alternatives do involve a lot of trial and error and a willingness to tweak.

Regards

Chris

based on that i would very much value your view on this:
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=3768


edit: i just realised you already have done.... but i have since replyed

Spur07
03-09-2009, 11:34
Hamish,

I'm in a similar position to you right now. I must thank you for starting that thread on PFM, its given me some very useful contacts and info that I didn't previously have. For example I wasn't aware there were ordinary PF members willing to mod stuff if asked, and I thought the offers you got to go and listen to other peoples' systems were quite overwhelming. FWIW, I'm also thinking of going down the Avondale route. I'm about to audition some alternative boards for my 72.

The Vinyl Adventure
03-09-2009, 11:37
Hamish,

I'm in a similar position to you right now. I must thank you for starting that thread on PFM, its given me some very useful contacts and info that I didn't previously have. For example I wasn't aware there were ordinary PF members willing to mod stuff if asked, and I thought the offers you got to go and listen to other peoples' systems were quite overwhelming. FWIW, I'm also thinking of going down the Avondale route. I'm about to audition some alternative boards for my 72.

let me know how you get on!!

Spur07
03-09-2009, 11:40
let me know how you get on!!

Will do. My 250 and Hi-cap also need servicing I think so obviously all that talk of avondale amps and modding was very relevant. It's a tough call.

REM
03-09-2009, 12:34
This could be really interesting as my HC/180 are both due a service. I'm thinking of maybe trying one of the 3rd party PSU, probably Avondale as I understand they offer a money back guarentee if not happy. Anyone tried this, directly comparing the different PSUs to a Hi-Cap, would be interest in peoples actual experiences.

Cheers

chrism
03-09-2009, 12:34
Hi Spur,

Have a look at Avondale's 821 boards for the 72 and a TPX1 power supply. Also Les recommends signal cable from the 72 direct to power amp and not via the Hicap as Naim recommend. You can get them on sale or return to try them out.

You could sell your Hicap and have a TPX1 for less than the recap cost!

Regards

Chris

The Vinyl Adventure
03-09-2009, 12:39
ooo i have openend up a can of worms here havent i!

The Vinyl Adventure
03-09-2009, 12:48
if anyone mod wants to move this avondale talk into my avondale thread it might make things make a bit more sence??? post#12 onwards i recon

REM
03-09-2009, 12:48
You could sell your Hicap and have a TPX1 for less than the recap cost!

Regards

Chris

That thought had occurred to me:smoking:

Regards

The Vinyl Adventure
03-09-2009, 13:02
it also looks as though you can buy tpx1 kits.. even cheaper still

Jonboy
03-09-2009, 16:06
I have a few experiences with Naim only one of which was listening to, and that was a Nac72 Nap 140 with hicap through SD Acoustics Speakers the sound was very forward and it has been said before and i'm nor sure if i could live with it for ever, a dealer once described it to me as being a young persons sound, another local dealer who use to stock Naim stuff won't any more as he says it just hasn't got the power to run his main stock of speakers which is B&Ws complete range, but perhaps thats because he traids in the same town as them and stocks most things that they produce, Linn equipment is still on his shelves though, and i was quite impressed with there sqeeze box but at around £5000 i perhaps should be.
The last thing i heard about Naim which made me chuckle was at one of the Tonbridge Audio Jumbles i over heard (Nosey i know) Paul Messinger telling someone that everything sounds good on my Naim system and he's no youngster:lol:

hifi_dave
03-09-2009, 16:23
When people talk about Naim being upfront, bright, aggressive, in yer face etc etc, this can apply to old style Naim but not new. The past five years or so, they have tamed it down considerably and on demo, it is often rather mellow against the competition.

JLN
03-09-2009, 16:35
I have never been a Naim fan for a few reasons. The main one was the dealer attitude - "you nobody without a Naim" and that continues on the Naim forum - the blind and blinkered attitude defies belief. Also the upgrade path is just a cash cow and gets people locked into one brand - clever but infuriating - plus the prices are unbelievable!! The other thing seems to be this myth that the equipment is bullet proof - there is not a week or day that goes by without someone with a problem on the forum - and daft ones too. Oh and I have never been impressed with the sound - the CDX2 gave me a headache. Ooo don't mention cable dressing either Arggghhh!!

Joe
03-09-2009, 17:34
Have heard both old and new style Naim. Didn't care for either, especially at the asking price.

Spur07
03-09-2009, 18:46
and dont even get me started on the rude, arogant, morons on the naim forum... talk about eliteist atitude.. that place brough the worst out in me to a point i was going on there to try and get a reaction.... tossers the lot of them (apart from norman and ian)

to summerise, for the most part i love naim kit (apart from the sources) the speakers and amps are fantastic... overpriced, but very good none the less.
the majority of the people who surround the brand ... are well tossers!
all lovely lovely telling you how good thier sound is trying to welcome you into thier elitest little club, but as soon as you cross them they stamp you with a yellow star of david and tell you to fuck off[/QUOTE]


Sorry Hamish,

I belatedly just read this comment right through to the end and it made me smile :) if you were going on to the Naim forum to post comments in order to get a reaction I'd be very surprised if you got very far! The moderators zealously vet anybody that doesn't have instant posting access - which is another thing, as I don't post much on there at all I have to wait sometimes over 12 hours to see any of my comments appear in the first place. And sometimes they never appear at all. What a shower they are:lol:

Marco
03-09-2009, 18:52
Guys,

Can we keep the comments constructive and concentrate on the products of both companies instead of forums and the people behind them?

Slagging off other forums is not part of our ethos.

Cheers :)

I will add my own thoughts to the thread topic later.

Marco.

Marco
03-09-2009, 19:03
should i edit out the bit i call them nazi's ... serious question... have i gone to far?

Yes, Hamish, please do. All this 'aggression' is not like you at all, matey.

Marco.

Joe
03-09-2009, 19:12
to summerise, for the most part i love naim kit (apart from the sources) the speakers and amps are fantastic... overpriced, but very good none the less.
the majority of the people who surround the brand ... are well tossers!
all lovely lovely telling you how good thier sound is trying to welcome you into thier elitest little club, but as soon as you cross them they stamp you with a yellow star of david and tell you to fuck off

Don't be such a fence-sitter, tell us what you really think of them!

The Vinyl Adventure
03-09-2009, 19:28
Yes, Hamish, please do. All this 'aggression' is not like you at all, matey.

Marco.

soz bud... thats what a few hours on pfm being faced with the same old crap about naim being the ultimate hifi etc does to me.

[neck, officially wound in, and post edited :)]

it just gets on my nerves. there is so much nonsence surrounding naim as a brand, it completely overshadows the actual hifi its self!
hence, in my view, the nessesity to comment on the naim forum and the "average" naim user when discussing naim hifi... they have brought my wrath upon them selves! eliteist goits! ;)

DSJR
03-09-2009, 19:34
There are many factors with the almost violent attitudes surrounding these two brands, certainly the Salisbury contingent, but it's a lot to do with psychologically belonging-to-the-club and being terrified of life "outside" it. Remember too, that it's mostly younger people who cannot afford the new range who get so vociferous. And here's me liking the NAP180 when it was new.........

I do have to agree with HiFi Dave regarding the new stuff. It would appear from tests that although Naim amps distort rather more than modern designs, the distortion is more even-order harmonic in nature and with much reduced odd-order higher harmonics (the harshness inducing stuff). I know this is only a tiny part of the story, but the current range only goes harsh when it's driven into clipping, rather than sounding "exciting" all the time...

The main criticism of today's Linn and Naim ranges is that both companies seem to think we're as well off as we were in the early eighties, prices it accordingly and totally ignores the fact that solid state components are cheaper and better than they've ever been. It's not as if the casework is that wonderful either, compared to the US giants IMO.

bigmoog
03-09-2009, 19:36
the problem I have with Dinn/Laim is just that.


although I used to run a fully loaded Limp LP12. wot I upgraded by smashing it with a hammer...but I do occasionally use a Laim CD5i, wot makes CDs sound quite acceptable


over priced over rated.....zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

DSJR
03-09-2009, 19:37
TeeDeeCeeDee's deserve SO much better BM, as well you know :D

bigmoog
03-09-2009, 19:40
TeeDeeCeeDee's deserve SO much better BM, as well you know :D


which I why I now use an ARC CD5 :smoking::smoking::smoking:

DSJR
03-09-2009, 19:43
:ner:

:D

:gig:

dum de dum de da da dum & dum de dum de da da dum & dum de dum de da da dum........................

REM
03-09-2009, 19:56
Not too many comments or opinions about Linn so far, so here are mine, based on experience and not just perception, rumour, prejudice or whatever. Three and a half decades ago they were the new kids on the block, with a point to prove and a case to make. They, or rather IT himself, took any and every opportunity to publicly proclaim that they and only they had the answers to all the questions. This for a while may even have been the case and regardless of anyones opinion of their products no one can doubt that they did revolutionise the hi-fi industry through their dealerships and marketing strategy, care to remember the days before single speaker dems, (the wall of speakers connected through a comparator switching box), home dems and dealers who actually seemed to care about music, dealers who were as enthusiastic about hi-fi as any punter instead of merely being box shifters, all of that is directly because of Linns' influence on the hi-fi industry.
Great, so what happened. Somewhere along the line Linn appears to have forgotten its' original customer base. It has tried, and IMHO failed, to become a global player in the consumer electronics game, the top end of that market yes of course but still I believe they are not there, or anywhere near in fact. Ask the average consumer to name a hi end audio company and I reckon that 95 out of 100 will say B&O (the other 5 will say Bose).
Where does this leave the Linn customer? If you have Linn gear much more than a couple of years old pretty much on your own if it goes tits up on you, which those bloody smps things are apt to do, their answer will probably be to tell you time has moved on and you'd be better off just getting whatever this years model is. This doesn't apply to the electronics either, they wont support the old tictok for instance, pity the poor smucks that pay good money for those things of eBay or where ever, 'cos it's probably shot and Linn wont even look at it. At least people like Naim do their best to support pretty much every thing they have ever made, not so Linn, all they seem to want is your money and unless you are prepared to keep buying the latest thing all they seem to have is contempt for you, not a great attitude at all.
Phew, just my 2p's worth and just IMHO, you understand:)

Regards

bigmoog
03-09-2009, 20:04
excellent post :smoking:

DSJR
03-09-2009, 20:08
Most of Naim's internal parts are cheap off-the-shelf components (except the mains transformers perhaps) and anyone with service knowledge can sort them once they know the right settings to use.

Linn's electronics are servicable for the obligatory seven years or so after manufacture ceased, but that's it usually.. lasers for Kariks can be obtained outside of the "loop" however and Audio Origami's Jonny does an amazing job on old Ittoks and Basiks by all accounts, although Akito's with wrecked bearings are impossible to fix I understand.

I have a lot to thank Ivor and Julian for, as their early systems gave me heaps of musical enjoyment and the single-speaker dem approach helped us to get better sounds from better-grade equipment regardless of the maker. However, there was a lot of bad as well.......................................

Alexxus
03-09-2009, 22:08
Well, to add my 2 pence...

I owned the Nait 5i and found it a very good machine. Quite competent, but once you crank the volume pot over 12 o'clock it starts to get a tad hysterical, if you persist higher up it just gets shrill and then it cuts off altogether. Not what I'd expect at the price. Leaving the power aspect aside, I enjoyed the sound very, very much. I can see how you can get drawn into it, but it only goes so far before the price kills it all for you.

While I was under their influence, I listened to a few more on their offer, the likes of CD 5i, CDX2, CD5X (or is it the other way around, it gets more than a little confusing what with everything looking the same an' all) and found them all very good. They do manage to wring a lot of detail from the cd, but again, the price... oh, the horror...

I also had a good listen to Supernait and the XS, both very good.

But in the end I went a completely different route, a LOT cheaper and it keeps me happier, to be honest.

So, to answer the initial question, the problem with Naim and Linn I reckon is about pride of ownership related to ridiculous prices. Of course they offer good quality, they have to, but I'm not sure it betters everybody else's. But then, having spent God knows how many thousands of pounds on their equipment (it DOES get ridiculous) are you gonna admit cheaper equipment is as good if not (and often) better? 'course not. You're gonna huff and puff and drag your hoof and stamp it. And lock horns with everybody until someone bites the dust.

Reasonable? No. But them who needs to go into arguments like that? Just pat them on the back, tell them to enjoy it and move on to more interesting things ;)

Alex_UK
03-09-2009, 22:28
Very well put, and logical - although I particularly like the"hoof" metaphor - cloven, by any chance? ;)

I think from reading the posts so far, AoS members are a much more individual bunch (and because of that maybe even altruistic) - we like to see success from lots of different approaches, and not many bang on about "the one true way" to go... a lot more open minded, I suspect, and tollerant. Maybe even a bit ecentric - but keeping on the "hoof" theme, who wants to follow the herd?

Alexxus
03-09-2009, 22:36
I particularly like the"hoof" metaphor - cloven, by any chance? ;)
Err... not quite sure, mate. I'm a couple of hours and a few glasses of wine ahead of you, besides writing in a foreign language, so you'll have to pardon me ;)

Alex_UK
03-09-2009, 22:57
Sorry Eddie - "cloven hoof" is a reference to the Devil - suggesting - well, you know what I was suggesting!? PS, don't be too sure on the wine! ;)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cloven_hoof

Alexxus
03-09-2009, 23:02
Ahhh... it's all coming back to me now :lol:

Nope, was thinking more about bulls, but now you mentioned it, are green sheep cloven? :lol:

Cheers on that wine :cool:

bigmoog
04-09-2009, 09:15
I have spent some time reading through my luvverly collection of Thee fat Response and HiFi Review.....zzzzzzzz


I cannot believe that we music lovers and audiophools let these mags get away with such bilge.....Hifi Review:,,,,,every issue: 'the reference Linn', 'my Naim six pack'....'Isobariks',...'Just made Jazz so boppy'..[Im paraphrasing here]or ' I so wanted the PT to win, but The anniversary just didn't seem set up and bounce like the reference Linn'...' Had identical Linn LP 12s with Aros'...'we could swap cartridges easily...' .' foot tapping '.....'The Best Arm the Publisher has ever heard ', The Best Arm the Editor has ever heard '

etc, etc, pages of Linn is best, unless its Naim, Exposure is good entry level, but Naim is best, Linn LP is the reference (I agree with this,always have...it is a reference, but that means something to measure against..ie....how to improve on it, whats wrong with it, why it is not the best or value for money)

Propaganda, politics, brow beaters, cliques, bed wetters, 'experts' etc I can do without....

These days, I refuse to read anything written by Malcolm Stewa** or Ian R@nkin..I would refuse to read any thing published by C.Fr*nkland if he ever decided to again....why>? 1 because I aint stupid and once I believe I was...until I saw and heard the light some time in the late eighties. And 2, I have a degree in Engerlish and the journalese in these mags is panty wettingly awful...butter: of the HFR ex reviewers I will read Noel Keywood and Paul Messenger (as Paul has spent 6,000 pounds on a cartridge that is bettered by my Deccas).....

worst Dinn product ever auditioned using my ears: Linn Intek (peeled paint at 1,000 yards...awful)

best Limp products(but not the best): original Ittok, LP12 (properly fettled by an unwashed knitted v-neck Guru chanting '33.3, 33.3, 45 is satan's spittle..PRaT,Prat), Troika, K9

best Naim products: NAT01.....simply special, original Nait, CD555 (cos I heard one play music, finally)

my considerably insensible opinion only.

:eyebrows:

jandl100
04-09-2009, 09:56
Yup Linn/Naim - spawn of the devil.

Well, actually the LP12 ain't bad in a coloured sort of way.

And I did enjoy my time with a Linn Karik 3 cdp, with its 'throwaway' onboard digital to analog stage - quite spoiled it when I put a Numerik DAC (DAK?) on the end of it though. Bouncy and interesting changed to boring. :scratch:

Naim? At home I've only tried a CDS2 (boring), a Nait3 (unlistenably screechy) and a CD3 (not bad, but others more suited to my taste at the price). I've heard quite a few Naim-based systems at all price levels at Shows and at folks' homes - none of which would I wish to take to my home.!

Just imo and ime. :)

Alex_UK
04-09-2009, 11:10
Thanks for your contributions BigMoog & Jerry - but I really wish you guys would tell us what you really think and not hold back :lol:

DSJR
04-09-2009, 11:43
The Karik/Numerik was very good, but the early ones varied alarmingly batch to batch for a few years. It wasn't until the version "III" models before things settled down. With a Chord Clearway/Roxburgh[farnell] filter on each, the performance considerably bettered the Ikemi IMO and was about as good as my Micro..... The karik on its own was great until music became complex, then it fell apart..

Interesting how Jerry's opinion differs from mine. I LOVED the CDS2/XPS Naim player. I found that I was able to totally forget the "mechanics" of CD replay and just enjoy the music being played. I should add that its very slight "creaminess" of sound may react badly with some systems, but unlike the Linn CD12, which I very much admired (and could have bought "staff" for 1/3rd retail price), I found the CDS2 worked in a cheaper system - Denon 250 amp and KEF Q1's for instance...

What puts my back up is the blinkered views of many of their dealers.

Alex, if you wish to discover the Naim philosophy without too much "attitude," you have Signals not ten minutes down the road from you in Bucklesham and I'm sure Alastair will give you a chance to listen to some things there. HiFi dave is only an hour down the road as well and as well as Naim, he does some other goodies beloved of the likes of me (Croft, EAR, Harbeth, Tannoy, NAS). It's up to you guv'nor

bigmoog
04-09-2009, 12:10
I think Dave (DSJR) always talks sense....


im off to prune my rosenut bush

Alex_UK
04-09-2009, 12:34
Alex, if you wish to discover the Naim philosophy without too much "attitude," you have Signals not ten minutes down the road from you in Bucklesham and I'm sure Alastair will give you a chance to listen to some things there. HiFi dave is only an hour down the road as well and as well as Naim, he does some other goodies beloved of the likes of me (Croft, EAR, Harbeth, Tannoy, NAS). It's up to you guv'nor

Thanks Dave, I have been tempted to slip along to HiFi Dave's - not particularly to check out Naim gear, but will probably give it a little while until I'm ready to buy something! (Speakers next, probably... Quite fancy some of Neat range which Dave is a dealer for...) But it would certainly be a good idea for me to listen to something "aspirational" as I've hardly ever listened to anything outside of the budget at the time I was buying.

twelvebears
04-09-2009, 12:48
I lsitened to a Linn based system of Linn Karik, Kairn, LK140 and B&W XT8s.

I suppose the cables and speakers could have been responsible, but it sounded very flat, with now real dynamics.

Plus always thought Naim stuff looks like After Eight boxes.... Perhaps it's the green and black?

Alex_UK
04-09-2009, 13:01
always thought Naim stuff looks like After Eight boxes.... Perhaps it's the green and black?

Very funny - wonder if that was why early Creek stuff was the same (green and black to look like Naim, not After Eights boxes! :D )

hifi_dave
04-09-2009, 13:12
Thanks Dave, I have been tempted to slip along to HiFi Dave's - not particularly to check out Naim gear, but will probably give it a little while until I'm ready to buy something! (Speakers next, probably... Quite fancy some of Neat range which Dave is a dealer for...) But it would certainly be a good idea for me to listen to something "aspirational" as I've hardly ever listened to anything outside of the budget at the time I was buying.

I only do dems if you've got money in your pocket but bring Tamzin with you and I could be persuaded....:)

Alex_UK
04-09-2009, 13:18
I only do dems if you've got money in your pocket but bring Tamzin with you and I could be persuaded....:)

Excellent - you even take babies in part exchange! :lol:

Spur07
04-09-2009, 14:15
Excellent - you even take babies in part exchange! :lol:

Alex,

Personally, I'd jump at the offer - remember Vicky Pollard only managed to swap her baby for a Westlife CD. :)

DSJR
04-09-2009, 14:20
He's got two grandchildren of his own, draining the HiFi stock-pot as I type...:D

Neat? NAH! Too flat earth IMO..............

Get a listen to some aspirational Harbeths or Tannoys if Dave still has them. Unlike any of the other "BBC Inspired" speakers out there, many different suppliers love the Harbeth models - and these are valve-n-vinyl people, not just objective master tape/CD chappies either and this is something special IMO, as few modern speakers work in all kinds of systems and environments as well as these - and their far eastern clients all seem to use valves..

bigmoog
04-09-2009, 17:48
anyone seen or heard Linn's Powersupply upgrade/downgrade: The Dynamik?


whats the betting the next product will be the Linn Kronik or Diabolik or NitpiK, Piknik, Lipstik or zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz? :cool:

DSJR
04-09-2009, 18:07
:D

Ask Flatpopely over on the other forum for the LP12 power supply tweaks. The one you refer to Jon is the DS upgrade isn't it?

make a product that's "just" good enough and then release the "upgrades" piecemeal every couple of years and rake in even more money - works in the motor trade - ugh!

bigmoog
04-09-2009, 18:12
BM has Just got hold of Linn's new tonearm, the 12 inch Erotik :smoking:

DSJR
04-09-2009, 18:14
Tonearm BM???????

bigmoog
04-09-2009, 18:16
yes Dave, I also have seen and heard the 9 inch: the TragiK

:)

DSJR
04-09-2009, 18:20
What about the new Naim din-makers - I mean speakers - I honestly read it as Ovipositor first time round......

bigmoog
04-09-2009, 18:26
I dont like Naim loudspeakers - enormous colouration devices, the experience I had at a friends place with his DBLs was so disappointing, that I went out and bought 10 square yards of MDF to build my own shed;)

Marco
04-09-2009, 20:20
Guys,

This is turning into a bit of a Linn/Naim slagfest, which is not really in the spirit of the forum, so can we please raise the standard of the discussion?

Cheers!

Marco.

DSJR
04-09-2009, 20:33
Well, it's better than slagging off DJ turntables ain't it? :gig:

Alright, I'll let them be ;) Alex knows what to do to find out for himself by now :)

bigmoog
04-09-2009, 20:40
I, unreservedly apologise.

Alex_UK
04-09-2009, 20:47
Well I certainly don't feel especially "put off" - and from reading about it, I still think the Uniti is a very innovative product (and considering the maker's Naim (pun intended!) very good value.) As always, only 3 things matter - my ears, and wallet!

Marco
04-09-2009, 20:53
S'ok, guys, as you know I like a laugh the same as the next man, but we have to draw a line somewhere :)

There's enough blatant slagging off of Linn and Naim on other forums to last a lifetime, so we prefer to present a slightly more professional image, where appropriate.

Marco.

Joe
04-09-2009, 20:56
Ah, but who gets to decide when it's appropriate?

On a more positive note, the K9 was an OK cartridge for the price. That's about as positive as I can be about Linn/Naim.

Marco
04-09-2009, 21:17
Well, in terms of Naim, I owned a CDS2/52/135s (all bought brand new, including latterly an XPS2 PSU) for over five years (not to mention plenty of other stuff before that) and enjoyed every minute of it, until I moved to valves; the equipment based on which in *some* ways sounds rather like my old Naim system...

Make of that what you will ;)

Marco.

hifi_dave
04-09-2009, 22:26
I don't understand why all the aggression !!! It's only Hi-Fi and if you don't like it, don't buy it, there's no need to slag it off with such venom.:scratch:

chris@panteg
04-09-2009, 23:42
I am not a fan of complete Linn or Naim systems ' but however i have heard both set up's with alternative speaker's and was rather impressed .

A 72/250/ with the CDS into Heybrook speakers ' i think they were HB1 ' it sounded bloody great .

A Linn pre might have been the LK1 or Kairn and LK280 and an arcam cd player going into AE2's remember those ' i was amazed at the clarity ' listening to some classical and ancient music .

Yet with the same set up and Kaber's i hated it ' really flat and compressed.

Its the same with Naim ' i think i could live with the amps but not the speakers .

bigmoog
05-09-2009, 08:26
I don't understand why all the aggression !!! It's only Hi-Fi and if you don't like it, don't buy it, there's no need to slag it off with such venom.:scratch:


I, like I said, apologise unreservedly. My posts were sort of tongue in cheek.....Im a naim owner, have used Linn products..just my opinion...but will now shut up. and listen to music

SteveW
05-09-2009, 08:40
Christ, I've got a complete Linn active system.

I'll get me coat.

Marco
05-09-2009, 09:12
Steve,

It’s probably one of the reasons why your system sounds good.

In my experience, with Linn you need to go the whole hog to hear it at its best, preferably by going active. It can be difficult to optimise the set-up of the latter, though.

The biggest problem I have with Linn, as was mentioned earlier, is the astronomical prices they charge now for their equipment, and even more than that, how they've abandoned their core customers and sold out to the badge snobs and/or clueless (in terms of hi-fi) nouveau riche.

However, giggling uncontrollably at the ramblings on forums from blinkered fanboys, and the top-class entertainment this provides, almost makes up for that ;)

Marco.

hifi_dave
05-09-2009, 09:14
I, like I said, apologise unreservedly. My posts were sort of tongue in cheek.....Im a naim owner, have used Linn products..just my opinion...but will now shut up. and listen to music

I was talking in general. It's the same on other Forums - it's not long before aggression and spite reduce the thread to an argument. It shouldn't - after all it's only Hi-Fi and you don't need to buy it if you don't like the products.

You get similar results by mentioning Rega and I don't understand why ? These are three successful British companies, manufacturing good equipment and providing good service etc. A punter might not like the sound but there really is no justification for all the hate. :(

The Grand Wazoo
05-09-2009, 09:19
Whoa there, Marco, steady now!!!!!


sold out to the badge snobs and/or clueless nouveau riche.


....do you think all the nouveau riche are clueless, or are you referring to a proportion of them?

Does this imply that 'old money' doesn't buy Linn gear?

..........hehehe

Joe
05-09-2009, 09:29
Whoa there, Marco, steady now!!!!!



....do you think all the nouveau riche are clueless, or are you referring to a proportion of them?

Does this imply that 'old money' doesn't buy Linn gear?

..........hehehe

And surely 'riche' people can't be all that clueless, otherwise they'd be 'pauvre'.

Marco
05-09-2009, 09:32
Hi Dave,

I agree, hence why I moderated the thread earlier.

However, I think 'hate' is too strong a word. I don't believe that anyone actually hates the companies you mention, but rather are annoyed at the pricing structure some have implemented, which smacks strongly of blatant profiteering and elitism - and hence them sticking two fingers up to the average punter.

One can then hardly complain when said punter chooses to return the compliment, especially when these days Internet forums provide the perfect pressure release valve for them to vent their pent-up frustration. I can understand it, but it has to be controlled and constructive here on AOS.

Hi-fi should be all about getting the highest SPPV possible - and with the best will in the world, these days companies like Linn and Naim do not provide the requisite route for achieving that.

Why do you think I do what I do? ;)

The days of me dropping £30k on brand new Naim gear, for example, are over! Others are now waking up and smelling the coffee, and good luck to them. That may not be good business for you as a Naim dealer, but that's just the way it is.

Marco.

Marco
05-09-2009, 09:40
Chris,


Whoa there, Marco, steady now!!!!!



....do you think all the nouveau riche are clueless, or are you referring to a proportion of them?


Just the ones who buy hi-fi (or anything else for that matter) purely for the cachet of the 'badge' or for 'prestige value'. Linn buyers at Harrods, for example. Do you think any of them really care how it sounds?

Trust me, the nouveau riche make up a significant proportion of the above - I know because many of them are my customers! ;)

Marco.

Joe
05-09-2009, 09:44
Let's hope none of them reads AoS!

The Grand Wazoo
05-09-2009, 09:46
Now, I'm gonna be disagree properly instead of being picky, pedantic and facetious!


Hi-fi should be all about getting the highest SPPV possible - and with the best will in the world, these days companies like Linn and Naim do not provide the requisite route for achieving that.

Hi-fi is, for you, all about getting the highest SPPV possible.
For some others, it's about spending a lump of cash on something they can plug in, not fuss about with, is intuitive to use and has good ergonomics.

Which approach is more valid?

Marco
05-09-2009, 10:04
Chris,


Hi-fi is, for you, all about getting the highest SPPV possible.
For some others, it's about spending a lump of cash on something they can plug in, not fuss about with, is intuitive to use and has good ergonomics.

Which approach is more valid?


Absolutely, and of course both are valid. It just depends what you're into.

This is a specialist audio forum populated in the main by discerning people who are willing to go the extra mile to obtain the best sound possible. The clever way of doing that is to achieve it at the lowest cost; therefore I am simply expressing the benefits of my particular hi-fi proclivities.

It's all about opinions - what I've expressed is mine and people can either agree or disagree :)

Joe,

Most would agree with what I've written! :eyebrows:... I have a good rapport with my customers, many of whom enjoy a bit of banter. Besides, that's how I feel and I have to be honest.

Marco.

Joe
05-09-2009, 10:16
It must surely be taken as read that anything stated here that isn't actually a fact is an opinion. Maybe someone more computer-savvy than me can write a bit of code that inserts 'IMO' at the end of every opinion stated on AoS!

Joe
05-09-2009, 10:17
Joe,

Most would agree with what I've written! :eyebrows:... I have a good rapport with my customers, many of whom enjoy a bit of banter. Besides, that's how I feel and I have to be honest.

Marco.

Well, no-one could argue about being described as 'nouveau riche' unless they had actually inherited their money, but 'clueless'?!

Marco
05-09-2009, 10:17
It must surely be taken as read that anything stated here that isn't actually a fact is an opinion. Maybe someone more computer-savvy than me can write a bit of code that inserts 'IMO' at the end of every opinion stated on AoS!


Indeed - I completely agree! :)

Joe, I mean "clueless" in terms of hi-fi. Most of them are. Like Chris says though, each to his or her own. However, that doesn't stop people from expressing their disagreement with it. Expressing opinions are what forums are for, and I don't have any trouble in doing that ;)

Marco.

DSJR
05-09-2009, 10:38
Well, let's be positive for a short while and as I'm from the mid seventies "first wave" then perhaps I have a slightly different and longer standing slant on it :)

A work-colleague and friend owned a stunning implementation of the 'Brik Tri-amp system in the late seventies - all bolt-up era Naim and Grace/Supex/Asak T on his LP12. The sound was magical and captivatingly clear, with none of the "quack" from those bextrene cones, chipboard 'Brik cabs keeping colouration in balance on the active versions, if not the passive equivalent. I heard many, many of my LP purchases for the first time on this system - BM, I first heard Tangram and Force Majeure on this system in Kingsbury and remember it very well......

The "bolt-up" era stuff could sound very valve like Marco - the musicality shining through over the pr@t factor, which hadn't then been invented :D The bolt-up 250 sounded very like the first EAR 509's, the latter having a slightly softer and fuller bass, although the mid and top were directly comarable at the time - IMO ;)

Linn and Naim came along in the UK at a time when *some* measurements were all - THD in amps, flat response in speakers and wow/flutter in turntables, totally ignoring the more subtle sound-wrecking effects of IMD/crossover/(excessive)feedback distortions, box resonances and acoustic feedback in turntable systems, which have a severe effect long before the final "howlround" takes off. These two companies brought the audio world up short, but of course, as time went on, the pendulum swung too far the other way and fortunately the internet has helped people to question and make their own decisions..

HiFi dave, online apologies if I've been too hard on these companies. I have admitted to owing them much in the early days, but later realisation that plenty of money making was never far from the proceedings (and definitely is the main agenda, now JV has passed on as proprietorial leader of the Salisbury contingent) has soured things just a little, combined with the total epiphany at your hands twenty years ago when I first properly heard the cheaper "alternatives.....:)"

Joe
05-09-2009, 10:40
I was talking in general. It's the same on other Forums - it's not long before aggression and spite reduce the thread to an argument. It shouldn't - after all it's only Hi-Fi and you don't need to buy it if you don't like the products.

You get similar results by mentioning Rega and I don't understand why ? These are three successful British companies, manufacturing good equipment and providing good service etc. A punter might not like the sound but there really is no justification for all the hate. :(

To paraphrase Bill Shankly:

'People get the wrong idea about hifi. They think it's a matter of life and death. I'm very disappointed with that attitude. I can assure you it is much, much more important than that.'

Marco
05-09-2009, 10:51
Dave,


The "bolt-up" era stuff could sound very valve like Marco...


Oh I know - I've owned some of it in the past! You're spot on. Even the earlier 'olive' stuff could sound that way when non-Naim speakers were used on the end, hence my reference earlier in terms of it comparing in some ways to the sound of my current valve gear. Remember, I first got into Linn and Naim in 1982 - a bit after you, granted, but still enough for me to do justice to the mantra of 'been there, done that, and bought the T-shirt ;)

Good post above, btw. I completely agree with your observations, particularly in reference to Naim, post JV. However, I still have a lot of respect for Paul Stephenson, Doug Graham (both of whom I know quite well), and a few of the other guys at Naim. In terms of integrity, they're head and shoulders above the, errm, 'characters' these days in charge of Linn!

Marco.

snapper
05-09-2009, 12:38
Christ, I've got a complete Linn active system.

Same here.


I'll get me coat.

Mind if I join you?

DSJR
05-09-2009, 12:43
Dave,
Paul Stephenson, Doug Graham (both of whom I know quite well
Marco.

So do I Marco, so do I ;) Nah, they're alright really :gig: I also know someone else not employed by that company who's utterly bigoted attitude almost totally put me off the brand for life :(

Marco
05-09-2009, 12:44
David,

Maybe Steve wears his joggers and slippers outside to the shops, too? If so, we can all get our coats, even though I don't own a Linn system :lol:

Marco.

snapper
05-09-2009, 12:50
David,

Maybe Steve wears his joggers and slippers outside to the shops, too?

Marco.

I did this yesterday,when I went to Tesco's for some milk.

Might just go to the pub tomorrow,wearing the same.


:lolsign:

Marco
05-09-2009, 12:58
It's Sunday, so I'll be wearing my dress! :eyebrows:

Marco.

SteveW
05-09-2009, 13:21
Joggers..
Jesus.

Joe
05-09-2009, 13:23
Joggers..
Jesus.

Joggers for Jesus is a new sect. They preach the Bible in casual clothes. Sort of an antidote to the suited-up Jehova's Witnesses.

Marco
05-09-2009, 13:25
Joggers..
Jesus.

Hahahaha... Very comfortable though for lounging around the house when you can't be arsed getting dressed!

Marco.

SteveW
05-09-2009, 13:33
Marco careful now.
Taking the thread away from a slag-fest, and then words like badge engineering, clueless, integrity, characters etc might lean back towards that drift.

Its HiFi.
Boxes an all - that play music. OK..dodgy marketing and some even dodgier dealers perhaps...but at the end of the day, we all have choices.

Seems to me that people enjoy,perhaps even encourage, a gang mentality.

Linn make some amazing bits of kit. They also make some shite.
Caveat bleedin emptor.

Marco
05-09-2009, 13:44
Taking the thread away from a slag-fest, and then words like badge engineering, clueless, integrity, characters etc might lean back towards that drift.


Steve, I think that I've put my point across robustly, but constructively, and I always speak from experience :)

Both David and you are good examples of Linn customers. Many aren't, in my opinion - and I'm sure you agree that Linn as a company have changed quite considerably since their heyday of the 70s, 80s and early 90s, when they very much focussed on traditional high quality 2-channel hi-fi at sensible prices.

Marco.

SteveW
05-09-2009, 13:59
Steve, I think that I've put my point across robustly, but constructively, and I always speak from experience :)

Both David and you are good examples of Linn customers. Many aren't, in my opinion - and I'm sure you agree that Linn as a company have changed quite considerably since their heyday of the 70s, 80s and early 90s, when they very much focussed on traditional high quality 2-channel audio at sensible prices.

Marco.

Well...whilst surround sound didn't really exist in those so called hey-days, I'm sure Linn have always focused on making a few bob.

Hitting the market with different products at different price points. They still do. Just because some of those price points seem a bit excessive...if not vulgar seems to upset some people.


However...if you listen you will hear....(where the f**k did that come from? I sound like Obi bloody One Kanobi).

Marco
05-09-2009, 15:33
Steve,


Well...whilst surround sound didn't really exist in those so called hey-days, I'm sure Linn have always focused on making a few bob.


I was thinking more of multi-room and all that kind of pish. Yes Linn, like any other company, like to make a few bob - nothing wrong with that. However, there's 'making a few bob' and blatantly ripping people off to create a perceived elitism.

Let's have a look at some of their products...

How about £2k for an Akiva when a £95 Denon DL-160 sounds miles better fitted to an Ekos? Ask your fellow active Linn man and LP12 user, Snapper, about that!

Or nearly a grand for a bloody Akito? If you compared the build quality of a Jelco SA-750D (about half the price) and an Akito side-by-side you'd just laugh out loud at the lunacy of where Linn get their pricing structure from! :mental:

How much is a new plastic lid or an empty box for an LP12? Have a guess!

And let's not go into the extraordinary cost of a fully tricked-out LP12 itself these days with a Keel and all that nonsense when there are dozens of T/Ts on the market at fraction of the price which sound much better, IME.

I don't mind paying good money for something when it's obvious that your money has been spent where it matters most and what you're getting is a genuine statement of the highest quality engineering and component quality available, but I won't be fleeced into buy something that's quite obviously priced for people who are willing to pay through the nose for a badge - especially one that's long lost the credibility it once had...

This doesn't "upset" me; I just merely shake my head in disbelief at the lunacy of it all and those who appear quite happy to line Linn's pockets in exchange for no more these days than so-so products in comparison to what else is available, particularly if one is willing to look beyond the end of one's nose ;)

Marco.

SteveW
05-09-2009, 16:07
No argument with all that Marco..None at all.
My put together Norton Airpower cost me about £100 all in, and that was after I'd paid a fortune for a fancy matching Dino case! ...and it sounds so much nicer than a Lingo.

However..(for a balanced view:eyebrows:), I've listened in a astonishment to the DS range...especially the Akurate DS.

Give Linn their due, they are leading the way on hi res downloads and playback.
Some of their speakers/amps are sublime. OK ..at a price I will concede.

However..what was it £50 for a box for your LP12 is taking the piss.

Actually...I'll tell you what was taking the piss - The attitude of the Roksan guy a while ago when I was looking for a solution to my sagged plinth. He suggested that some shims he would sell me would get rid of the 'myth' of the sagging. Bonkers. There was a brand I really would never touch again.

Ali Tait
05-09-2009, 16:15
If you are talking about shipping boxes,I had to pay 100 pounds for boxes from Quad for a pair of esl 57's.

bigmoog
05-09-2009, 16:30
this is purely my experience, with no axe to grind:

Many years ago, I wanted a new integrated amp for my 'bedroom' system. I was using, at the time, an arcam alpha. I went to Farnborough HiFi (long closed no wonder...), who stocked arcam, linn, naim, exposure flatearth stuff, for an audition of amps

I listened to music through the alpha...(I took it along)

against an Exposure, a Denon, Musical Fiddletee.....half way through the audition the dealer...unveiled his trump card: A Linn Intek....' I want to show you something a little better all round...Lets try this....'

He set it up, fiddled around then placed cd...then he sat behind me, just so I could see him out of the corner of my eye.....

with each music piece, no matter what, he nodded his head and tapped his foot very fervently and with obvious exaggeration...in time, I believe with the music (although how can you nod and tap to bit of Chopin???)....he kept this up with comments such as ' the others shout '...'excellent projection' ....etc...He even tapped me on my shoulder a few times.....

to my ears the Alpha and indeed the MF made music.....

What did I buy? I went elsewhere and bought an proper integrated amplification device...

A Kelvin Labs:smoking::smoking:

hifi_dave
05-09-2009, 16:36
Not wishing to stick up for Linn in any way but have you seen the cost of custom made packaging and the foam inners ? It is horrendous and then you need to do the paperwork, pay for carriage and then there is £6.52 VAT in that 50 quid.

Having said that, Naim have just sent me packaging FOC for a customer whose box has been eaten by mice...:doh:

hifi_dave
05-09-2009, 16:42
Jonathan, you got away lightly. We used to have a Linn rep ( DSJR might remember) who not only tapped his foot but would also slap his thigh in time to the music but only (of course) when the Linn product was playing...:lol:

Marco
05-09-2009, 18:08
Not wishing to stick up for Linn in any way but have you seen the cost of custom made packaging and the foam inners ? It is horrendous and then you need to do the paperwork, pay for carriage and then there is £6.52 VAT in that 50 quid.


Dave,

The price a person I know was quoted from a dealer was nearer £150 for an 'official' Linn LP12 EMPTY box with all the packaging, etc. Try rationalising that, me old son!! :mental:

Anyone care to guess the cost of a plastic lid or a felt mat for an LP12 brand new from a Linn dealer?

Marco.

DSJR
05-09-2009, 18:19
What did I buy? I went elsewhere and bought an proper integrated amplification device...

A Kelvin Labs:smoking::smoking:

And guess who designed the Kelvin Labs amp?

Why, Martin Grindod of none other than AVI, who make small active speakers with in-built DAC's and remote volume control............

If anyone wants LP12 belts and mats, look no further than the Linn shop on ebay. if you want a real laugh at the main reason for taking the pee out of this company, look at the price of their phono and XLR connectors, which are more than TEN TIMES the bulk price of these things online.....

hifi_dave
05-09-2009, 18:23
Dave,

The price a person I know was quoted from a dealer was nearer £150 for an 'official' Linn LP12 EMPTY box with all the packaging, etc. Try rationalising that, me old son!! :mental:

Anyone care to guess the cost of a plastic lid or a felt mat for an LP12 brand new from a Linn dealer?

Marco.

Marco,
You've got me on that one. I can't even begin to justify that and don't get me started on the LP12 parts.:mental:

Marco
05-09-2009, 18:32
If anyone wants LP12 belts and mats, look no further than the Linn shop on ebay. if you want a real laugh at the main reason for taking the pee out of this company, look at the price of their phono and XLR connectors, which are more than TEN TIMES the bulk price of these things online.....


Indeed, Dave. What I can't get my head around is people who are daft enough to pay the ridiculous price premium a Linn badge attracts, whether it be for boxes, lids, mats, connectors or some of their grossly overpriced equipment... Sheer and utter muppetry! :mental:

The longer people continue to put up with being fleeced like that, the more Linn will continue to do it - in fact, they'll push it further to see how much more they can get away with. How on earth can people allow themselves to be ripped off so easily? What's the saying - fools and their money are easily parted? How apt!

However, let's not just pick on Linn here, the same could be said of many other 'hi-end' brands. Take your pick from the Absolute Sounds product portfolio, for example, or anything the 'charming' Branko-boy at Audiofreaks sells... Nordost cables (and those of many other 'hi-end' brands) or 90% of what Russ Andrews sells these days - the list goes on.

Nope, give me my modified Techy, anything the extremely talented Anthony TD makes, or good old Crofty, anyday - truly superb realistically priced products capable of competing with the best, but without the bullshit attached!!! ;)

AOS will forever champion products like that and continue to expose the rip-off merchants.

Marco.

hifi_dave
05-09-2009, 18:49
Talking of Crofty, have you heard his Micro 25, the 'recession buster' ?

It's £350 for a pre with stunning MM phono stage and not much else. It's not milled from solid or packed in a beautiful crate but it sounds bloody wonderful.

Glenn is the complete opposite of most manufacturers. He's content to make beer money just so long as enthusiasts can buy his products without taking out a second mortgage.....:cool:

Marco
05-09-2009, 19:35
Nope, I haven't heard it Dave, but I know what Croft equipment is all about, so no doubt it will sound fab and punch well above its weight in terms of SPPV.

We need more people in the industry like Glenn, although he perhaps takes things to the other extreme in terms of his pricing structure... There needs to be a happy medium! ;)

Marco.

hifi_dave
05-09-2009, 21:07
Glenn has found the 'happy medium' it's called BEER...:cool:

Sorry, didn't mean to disrupt the thread.

I think Linn have lost their way with all the expensive Home Cinema kit and multi-room, both now very small markets, especially in this country. Few people buy megabuck Home Cinema and who would pay thousands to have their house ripped apart for multi-room when you can do it wirelessly for a few hundred with no mess ? :scratch:

SteveW
05-09-2009, 21:25
Dave,

The price a person I know was quoted from a dealer was nearer £150 for an 'official' Linn LP12 EMPTY box with all the packaging, etc. Try rationalising that, me old son!! :mental:

Anyone care to guess the cost of a plastic lid or a felt mat for an LP12 brand new from a Linn dealer?

Marco.

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/LINN-BOX-PACKAGING-FOR-SONDEK-LP12-AXIS-BASIK_W0QQitemZ130327366796QQcmdZViewItemQQptZTurn table_Parts_Accessories?hash=item1e581dcc8c&_trksid=p4634.c0.m14.l1262

Marco
05-09-2009, 21:41
Steve,

That's not what a mate of mine was quoted, though!! Mmmm...

It's still no way worth nearly £60 for a freakin empty box. You can almost get a decent Denon MC cartridge for that (well at least before the recent price hike).

Marco.

SteveW
05-09-2009, 23:01
Price and value. Two very different things.

SteveW
05-09-2009, 23:03
Must be the wine... I've gone all friggin mystical again.

jandl100
06-09-2009, 09:14
I know I am going to get into trouble about this, bit it kind of annoys me, so I'll say it anyway ....

Why is Marco allowed to slag off Linn when he tut-tuts at other posters for saying far less nasty things?

Yeah, I know - it's his forum .... :(

Macca
06-09-2009, 09:41
Talking of Crofty, have you heard his Micro 25, the 'recession buster' ?

It's £350 for a pre with stunning MM phono stage and not much else. It's not milled from solid or packed in a beautiful crate but it sounds bloody wonderful.

Glenn is the complete opposite of most manufacturers. He's content to make beer money just so long as enthusiasts can buy his products without taking out a second mortgage.....:cool:

I have one on trial at the moment and it does indeed sound 'bloody wonderful' - ironically it is to replace my old Linn LK1

Comparing this sort of product (Croft) with what Linn do nowadays is comparing apples with oranges. Linn is a global brand with a lot of mouths to feed and to survive and make money they have to pursue their niche - which is the wealthy, lifestyle-orientated market - this market wants the type of product and ethos Linn offer - Linn provide it and make money doing it - I see no problem with this - business is business.

To make an analogy - It is like asking why does anyone buy an 'E' class Mercedes when they could buy a Morgan instead? There will always be a market for the Mercedes, will there not?

Martin

Varun
06-09-2009, 09:47
I believe- and if I may post my ha'penny's worth!

1): Design: 2): Build Quality; 3): Use of quality Components: and then marketing are the issues raised by DSJR and Marco. If Linn and Naim are being criticised and they fall badly on their face on all three measures. Where they have succeded is in marketing and convincing people, especially in UK that the Linn-Naim sound has no match. The picture is very different overseas.

However-where I disagree with Marco is that there are other companies who also fail on these parameters. Take EAR for instance- enormously expensive and every engineer who looked at the innards of the 509s reported that cheap-inferior- components were used.

These were compared with American products like Conrad Johnson and Audio Research-built like tanks. That is not likely to come cheap- especially when it comes to things like power supply-transformers and so on. A good designer has a right to place a premium on his product. After all a lot of them started with huge bank loans and struggled to keep the bank from taking over the business. Cheap Mods and fixes are unlikely to be panacea for all issues relating to HI FI performance. I would say far from it.

DSJR
06-09-2009, 09:49
If that little Croft was marketed the way everything else is, it would sell for over a grand and the "better" range would sell for £2500 each in a slightly better box..

For £350, there's little else available apart from pro-ject..

Welcome to the wonderful world of Croft - enjoy and grin smugly :gig:

DSJR
06-09-2009, 09:57
The funny thing about EAR 509's is that if they work from day one (they usually do ;)), they stay that way for years...

I only looked inside some early 509's I admit, but the components looked ok at the time. The 599 integrated I heard last year sounded great too.

The Tube Technology Genesis mono's I ended up with impressed on first hearing and the casework and caps were of good quality, but using four EL34's for 100W output put a very heavy load on them and they were shagged after a year. 509's use TV output valves designed to be run flat out on the 15KHz approx line signal and are under-worked in an audio application I understand. I'f I'd bought 509's when I should have done, I'd probably still have them. The circuits are so simple, they could have been breathed on with "boutique" bits I'm sure....

Macca
06-09-2009, 10:22
Was watching a re-run of the TV show 'Grand Designs' the other day. (if you are not familiar this is a show that follows people with more money than sense as they go through the process of building their own houses - risibly ugly houses, more often than not).

In this episode the chap goes back for a final look after they have finished and moved in. Wifey has her designer kitchen with £1000 tap - hubby has a Quad surround sound system with ELS front 'speakers - the whole thing is installed - no wires on view, all the kit hidden in a purpose built cupboard.

Okay we are talking Quad rather than Linn/Naim but the principle is still the same - there is no way people like this are going to compromise the expensive, designer elegance of their new £1 million home with a pile of hi-fi that looks like it is either home-made or on the run from a test lab. This type of buyer needs the lifestyle approach to sound reproduction - because it is that or nothing.

Also I think some forget that the success and high profile of the LP12 turntable brought a lot of people back to serious hi-fi pursuit - look at the number of imitators it spawned and the number of turntables on the market today when vinyl as a mass medium died - what? 20 years ago? If they had not stepped forward with their 'better moustrap' at the time would vinyl still be so popular today?

Martin

PS Dave(DSJR) - many thanks for your advice re Croft:):) - Big Smile!

DSJR
06-09-2009, 10:35
The clients I served with Linn and Naim were usually graduates my age who had just got up the ladder enough in their careers to invest a thousand or two on their HiFi. We all liked much the same music (post punk, 70's "prog," some blues and folk and the better "New Wave" stuff) and these systems reproduced this style of music very well.

What broke the spell was Linn's introduction of amplification. Apparently, naim were going to make Linn's amps and it came as a shock when Linn suddenly announced the LK1 and 2 on the market, with a very different (actually more neutral if veiled) presentation to Salisbury's finest. it split the dealerships wide open, as some went one way and others t'other. My own employer all but split in two, the sales director praised on the other site for his wonderful service to his Naim clients on one side of the fence and most of the rest of us on the other - and embracing CD too. Not pleasant memories for me to recall as "personalities" got heavily involved, indirectly causing a marriage split and subsequent unfortunate divorce as one of the staff took his battles home with him.........................................

Hope the above explains in part why I blow so hot and cold about these two companies. So much good was done in the early days yet there was much bad blood later on before the market settled down in the 90's.

The thing is, the company proprietors could be quite candid when not "selling" their wares. Ivor could be very charming and open with us and although JV was rather guarded, looking back, we had some good times...

Marco
06-09-2009, 10:50
I know I am going to get into trouble about this, bit it kind of annoys me, so I'll say it anyway ....

Why is Marco allowed to slag off Linn when he tut-tuts at other posters for saying far less nasty things?

Yeah, I know - it's his forum ....

Jerry, I'm not "slagging off" Linn. I'm offering constructive criticism and a valid opinion based on considerable personal experience. That's the difference! What's "nasty" about telling the truth as I see it?

It's got nothing to do with it being my forum. I'm posting as an ordinary member who's entitled to his opinion the same as anyone else.

'Slagging them off' is referring to Linn as "Dinn" and referring to their equipment as "Trajik", or whatever (like Jonathan did earlier), which is why I stepped in to moderate.

Oh, and incidentally, may I remind you of your earlier remark in reference to both companies:


Yup Linn/Naim - spawn of the devil.


If that isn't slagging them off, what is? You're exhibiting some double-standards to say the least, Jerry-boy!

Your sometimes twisted logic never fails to 'annoy' me. You've always got something to moan about - you're worse than a bloody woman! ;)

Sadly, too, you often seem to be on a 'different page' from most of us. Why, I've no idea :(

Marco.

Marco
06-09-2009, 11:08
Hi Martin,


Okay we are talking Quad rather than Linn/Naim but the principle is still the same - there is no way people like this are going to compromise the expensive, designer elegance of their new £1 million home with a pile of hi-fi that looks like it is either home-made or on the run from a test lab. This type of buyer needs the lifestyle approach to sound reproduction - because it is that or nothing.


There's nothing wrong with this approach if that's what you're into, but that mentality is hardly representative of those belonging to a specialist audio forum such as this who are seeking the best sound possible and who are not willing to compromise achieving that at home for the sake of "designer elegance".

In my view, Linn have shunned their traditional hi-fi roots in order to appease the lifestyle set or 'badge snobs', to the detriment of the sonic performance and sound-per-pound value of much of their current equipment. It is this which others and myself find rather disappointing from how things were in their heyday.

Marco.

Macca
06-09-2009, 11:40
Hi Martin,



There's nothing wrong with this approach if that's what you're into, but that mentality is hardly representative of those belonging to a specialist audio forum such as this who are seeking the best sound possible and who are not willing to compromise achieving that at home for the sake of "designer elegance".

In my view, Linn have shunned their traditional hi-fi roots in order to appease the lifestyle set or 'badge snobs', to the detriment of the sonic performance and sound-per-pound value of much of their current equipment. It is this which others and myself find rather disappointing from how things were in their heyday.

Marco.

I agree -except I would only find it disappointing if there was no alternative available. When I made the decision to spend some money improving on what I have I did idly consider booking a dem at 'House of Linn' - Manchester being just up the road - instead I joined this forum to see what the 'activists' were talking about - not disappointed so far!

Martin

SteveW
06-09-2009, 12:10
I agree -except I would only find it disappointing if there was no alternative available. When I made the decision to spend some money improving on what I have I did idly consider booking a dem at 'House of Linn' - Manchester being just up the road - instead I joined this forum to see what the 'activists' were talking about - not disappointed so far!

Martin

A visit to House of Linn is well worth it. It would also dispel the notion that Linn are not chasing sonic performance. Of course at a price...no question.

I guess the fact that you cannot to A/B comparisons is something to way up...I've always thought that I trust my own ears the most (even if it is a visit to discount that brand).
From my perspective, if I end up choosing other makes, at least I will not have discounted something based on somebody else's perception.

Marco
06-09-2009, 12:32
Hi Martin,

Glad you like it here :)

Have you posted a thread in the Welcome section or have I missed it?


I agree -except I would only find it disappointing if there was no alternative available.


That's fine, but obtaining information here is not going to change what Linn are being accused of (manufacturing so-so equipment at, errm, 'slightly more' than so-so prices). It is what it is, and in my opinion, you can generally do much better for the money.

Outside of their (costly) music server devices (Akurate DS, etc), I think that Linn have lost the plot and are not delivering to their customers much in the way of sound-per-pound compared to bespoke equipment from smaller, more specialist, manufacturers or from some of the much larger mainstream Japanese companies.

It's my opinion that Linn are trading largely on their past reputation which in the main is no longer deserved but that continues nevertheless to influence their existing customer base and also those who respond positively to marketing hype. This is why on AOS we encourage people to think outside of the box, shun the 'usual suspects', and consider equipment which normally wouldn't have entered their radar. It's good to expand one's horizons, after all, and not get stuck in a rut.

However, it's your money and if you've decided on buying Linn equipment then that's entirely up to you. Should you wish to consider alternatives then we are here to help and offer advice if necessary :)


I did idly consider booking a dem at 'House of Linn' - Manchester being just up the road...


I've often wondered about that place and found the concept intriguing. I have considered booking an appointment just to see what sort of 'pitch' I was given and to hear the complete Linn range in order that I can comment with authority on it on the forum, but the motivation to do so has so far not quite been there ;)

Perhaps next time when I'm due in Manchester on business I will review my options!

Marco.

bigmoog
06-09-2009, 12:33
Jerry, I'm not "slagging off" Linn. I'm offering constructive criticism and a valid opinion based on considerable personal experience. That's the difference! What's "nasty" about telling the truth as I see it?

It's got nothing to do with it being my forum. I'm posting as an ordinary member who's entitled to his opinion the same as anyone else.

'Slagging them off' is referring to Linn as "Dinn" and referring to their equipment as "Trajik", or whatever (like Jonathan did earlier), which is why I stepped in to moderate.

Oh, and incidentally, may I remind you of your earlier remark in reference to both companies:


Yup Linn/Naim - spawn of the devil.


If that isn't slagging them off, what is? You're exhibiting some double-standards to say the least, Jerry-boy!

Your sometimes twisted logic never fails to 'annoy' me. You've always got something to moan about - you're worse than a bloody woman! ;)

Sadly, too, you often seem to be on a 'different page' from most of us. Why, I've no idea :(

Marco.


technically, Im not slagging off Linn or Naim.....I have owned their kit, I still have and use some..I also have a Musical Fatality, oops...Fidelity... XA-200 monos, lovely robust kit, still does the biz after 10 years service. What I am pointing out that there is life outside Linn/Naim, always has been, always will be...I refuse to be brainwashed.....

would you pay 15K for a fully loaded LP12? when £1K will buy a nice vinyl record transcription device...?


im off to fettle my sunday lunch.

hifi_dave
06-09-2009, 12:42
I can't really talk about Linn as I gave up the dealership years ago when they started to dictate what I could and couldn't do and wanted to take money from my Bank account every month for the privelege.

I can say, as a Naim dealer for around 11 years, that they have never dictated anything to me or put pressure on me in any way, in fact, they couldn't be any more helpful or understanding, which is one reason why I enjoy selling their products. Some unprofessional companies can make your life a misery.

Marco
06-09-2009, 12:45
Hi Jonathan,


technically, Im not slagging off Linn or Naim.....I have owned their kit, I still have and use some..I also have a Musical Fatality, oops...Fidelity... XA-200 monos, lovely robust kit, still does the biz after 10 years service. What I am pointing out that there is life outside Linn/Naim, always has been, always will be...I refuse to be brainwashed.....


Me neither!

I completely agree and have no problem with that. Please though just drop the "Dinn", "Laim" thing, etc. You know exactly what I mean ;)

Marco.

Marco
06-09-2009, 12:53
Hi Dave,


I can't really talk about Linn as I gave up the dealership years ago when they started to dictate what I could and couldn't do and wanted to take money from my Bank account every month for the privelege.


Absolutely shocking!! I've heard similar tales from other dealers, and it's one of the reasons why I would never give Linn another penny of my money. When someone feels like they're being fleeced most other considerations go out of the window.

They do the same thing to their customers too, by forcing them to buy their latest new box instead of extensively supporting older gear, like Naim do. Basically, with Linn, it's all about profit making with little consideration for what their long standing and more discerning customers want.


I can say, as a Naim dealer for around 11 years, that they have never dictated anything to me or put pressure on me in any way, in fact, they couldn't be any more helpful or understanding, which is one reason why I enjoy selling their products. Some unprofessional companies can make your life a misery.


I'm aware of this, and it's one of the reasons you'll rarely hear me complain about Naim, even though their equipment isn't exactly cheap. They demonstrate integrity and professionalism as a company, which I respect. Linn do the opposite, which is why I'm expressing my disdain for their behaviour here. The sad thing is it wasn't always like that.

Marco.

DSJR
06-09-2009, 14:06
I always start in one direction and end up mediating...

B&O had "dealer contracts" for some years before Linn tried it, it was just that Linn wanted clients to register their purchase with them and claim an extra guarantee period - up to five years total in fact. They also wanted their best dealers to commit to having their best system in the shop, to always have music playing (surely a given thing in audio retailers), to stock a representative selection from their portfolio and a number of other small things I forget the details of - the BACS payment of invoices being one of them, but again, B&O did and probably still do this with no complaint...

Many of the first wave of FE style dealers were a bunch of arrogant, old hippy, self opinionated little sh*ts (me included at the time, but not HiFi dave, who never toed the party line with all the valvey stuff he stocked) who thought they knew it all. They all thought they could make a stand against Linn and when the purge happened in the early nineties, many of these people hung on due to their Naim agency and the rapidly growing sales of CD players compared to vinyl back then. A few kept their LP12's though..

As for me, my experiences at Radlett Audio (in Radlett back then ;)) changed my audio life forever, coupled with a trip "home" to Ruthin and a good live jazz gig experience (the cask drawn beer may have had something to do with it as well :D).. I was able to leave the terrible twosome behind for ten years or so, until work in a south midlands dealer beckoned...

SteveW
06-09-2009, 14:29
That's fine, but obtaining information here is not going to change what Linn are being accused of (manufacturing so-so equipment at, errm, 'slightly more' than so-so prices). It is what it is, and in my opinion, you can generally do much better for the money.


Marco.

Marco, whilst I disagree with you a Linn aiming at a'lifestyle' rather than sonic abilities, we are in complete agreement about doing better for your money elsewhere.
The nail in the coffin as far as me continuing to replace and upgrade Linn products came this April.
On the basis of the Pound slipping 20% against the dollar Linn dramatically re-jigged their prices. Now I know all about the effects of currency...(every working day:doh:).

However, whilst some products had 'modest' increases (and I'm sure you would argue even these were over inflated to start with)...others were staggering.
For instance, the Akurate 242 Speakers went from £6,040 to £7,000.
The Akurate Kontrol (its a pre-amp) went from £3,200 to £3,875.
The Akurate 4200 (4 channel amp) went from £3,380 to £4370 (and to go active you can double this and add the costs of cards)

Now...these were all products that potentially I would have been interested in next year, and admittedly they are the most extreme examples of the increases implemented. However...it really aint going to happen.

Not because they don't sound wonderful...they do.

But because they have become SO expensive compared to other options.

I will still consider the Akurate DS and CD player...mind you, these now run in at £3,900 and £4,750 each respectively. (Or maybe not;))

Varun
06-09-2009, 15:29
The funny thing about EAR 509's is that if they work from day one (they usually do ;)), they stay that way for years...

I only looked inside some early 509's I admit, but the components looked ok at the time. The 599 integrated I heard last year sounded great too.

Yes Dave, I was a proud owner of 509s for 10 years+, but in New Zealand the product was not rated highly and had little re-sale value. My EAR pre-amp (802) was sold by a chap who dealt in second hand gear exclusively with some new products. He said that the new buyer came back within a week or so with electrolytic fluid leakage having stopped the pre-amp from working. EAR 834P was also of not the best quality either in sound or craftsman ship. Light tin box with impressive gold lettering. The Plinius amps are in a different league-even the 100w Class A-and I would say without any quirks to sound. As I said before 509s have a lift or boost in the bass-without the depth of Plinius.

Macca
06-09-2009, 16:36
I've often wondered about that place and found the concept intriguing. I have considered booking an appointment just to see what sort of 'pitch' I was given and to hear the complete Linn range in order that I can comment with authority on it on the forum, but the motivation to do so has so far not quite been there ;)

Perhaps next time when I'm due in Manchester on business I will review my options!

Marco.

Marco - I think you should do the House of Linn thing - it would be extremely interesting. I discounted the option myself because I do not want to spend that much money and as an ex (not Hi Fi) salesman myself I am remarkably easy to sell to; so God knows what I would end up walking out with!

However I very much doubt they give customers the hard sell - most UK dealers I have patronised over the years don't seem to give any sort of sell at all - which is baffling to someone with my sales background. Like Alec Baldwin says in 'Glengarry Glenross' - 'A guy does not walk on the lot unless he wants to buy.'

Which is not to say you sell someone something they do not want - but you sell them something at least!

Is this why so many dealers are closing or have closed?

Martin

SteveW
06-09-2009, 16:51
Marco - I think you should do the House of Linn thing - it would be extremely interesting. I discounted the option myself because I do not want to spend that much money and as an ex (not Hi Fi) salesman myself I am remarkably easy to sell to; so God knows what I would end up walking out with!

However I very much doubt they give customers the hard sell - most UK dealers I have patronised over the years don't seem to give any sort of sell at all - which is baffling to someone with my sales background. Like Alec Baldwin says in 'Glengarry Glenross' - 'A guy does not walk on the lot unless he wants to buy.'

Which is not to say you sell someone something they do not want - but you sell them something at least!

Is this why so many dealers are closing or have closed?

Martin

Well...all I can say is that Brian and Trevor are top guys.

A mate of mine has bought a fair bit of kit with them and I've tagged along, as well as attended one of their 'events'...think it was the launch of the Akurate DS.
No hard sell..

Marco
06-09-2009, 20:31
Hi Steve,


Marco, whilst I disagree with you a Linn aiming at a'lifestyle' rather than sonic abilities, we are in complete agreement about doing better for your money elsewhere.
The nail in the coffin as far as me continuing to replace and upgrade Linn products came this April.
On the basis of the Pound slipping 20% against the dollar Linn dramatically re-jigged their prices. Now I know all about the effects of currency...(every working day:doh:).

However, whilst some products had 'modest' increases (and I'm sure you would argue even these were over inflated to start with)...others were staggering.
For instance, the Akurate 242 Speakers went from £6,040 to £7,000.
The Akurate Kontrol (its a pre-amp) went from £3,200 to £3,875.
The Akurate 4200 (4 channel amp) went from £3,380 to £4370 (and to go active you can double this and add the costs of cards)

Now...these were all products that potentially I would have been interested in next year, and admittedly they are the most extreme examples of the increases implemented. However...it really aint going to happen.

Not because they don't sound wonderful...they do.

But because they have become SO expensive compared to other options.

I will still consider the Akurate DS and CD player...mind you, these now run in at £3,900 and £4,750 each respectively. (Or maybe not;))

You make some valid points, but unfortunately you also highlight the (for me) ludicrous cost of some commercial 'hi-end' kit, which I just don't feel offers any sort of real value for money. And here I'm not just talking specifically about Linn.

Knowing what I know now from going down the modification route about the cost of even the best internal components available (since for example buying various high quality 'bits' to put in the new crossovers of my Tannoys) I would not dream of dropping the sort of money you've quoted above for any non-bespoke commercial products, especially when one considers that the likes of Croft have released a valve preamp, including an all-valve phono stage, for £350 which I'd bet would easily compete with the Akurate Kontrol preamp above in terms of out-and-out audio performance.

I'd love to do the test (were it possible) in either of our systems! :eyebrows:

You might not believe that now, but once you've visited me and I've introduced you to what judiciously selected and modified valve equipment can do, I'm confident you will see the futility of spending big bucks on commercially produced solid-state equipment from anyone, not just Linn! ;)

As for the Akurate DS, again I'd bet that this chap here would give it a run for its money in terms of pure audio performance (I'm not interested in functions or flexibility):

http://www.modwright.com/modifications/9 Also shown in this thread: http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=3764

...And it costs $3800, not £3900!!! :smoking:

I know that you love your Linn active system at the moment, and you've every right to do so, but don't you think it would be nice one day to be able to upgrade your system significantly without spending many thousands of pounds for the privilege by having to pay Linn for their exorbitant mark-up?

Try and get your head around SPPV with hi-fi and examining products from smaller specialist manufacturers, like I have, and I promise that you'll never look back... Just think of how much more music you could buy with the money you save!! :cool:

Marco.

Alex_UK
06-09-2009, 20:40
Wow - didn't expect quite such a can of worms, can see now why Ralph sat down with his popcorn in post #2 (still possibly the best post I have ever seen!)

One point on the "lifestyle" aspect of these systems - surely the people often "buying" them will be the interior designers on a project for a customer, rather than the customer themselves? Probably, the client will just want to "make a statement" and buy what's recommended? (Unless they do have a genuine interest.) You can't blame a company for catering for that type of client, particularly if it's traditional customer base has "seen the light" and scurried off to pursue alternatives (and Marco's oft suggested "SPPV") - sorry, but if I was running any of these companies, I would be adjusting my strategy to where the customers are in the future, not 3 decades ago... Just a thought.

Marco
06-09-2009, 20:58
You're absolutely right with your observations, Alex, business is business, and we're talking about two entirely different markets.

However, this 'lifestyle' nonsense in hi-fi drives down standards in performance, in terms of ultimate sound quality, which is a total anathema to purists such as me, and I would hope the vast majority of people on this forum! :)

The fact that Linn have embraced a market which for them seems more profitable now doesn't mean that those who grew up knowing Linn for what they once stood for have to stand back and admire it...

Perhaps Linn's traditional customer base wouldn't have "scurried off to pursue alternatives" if Linn had remained true to their purist origins? Think about that.

AOS exists to champion the cause of the purist, not pander to the banal sensibilities of the lifestyle set.

Marco.

DSJR
06-09-2009, 21:19
Alex, there is a Linn dealer (part of a small chain) not twelve miles away from you in a "Garrison" city. I went there for an interview some years ago and felt like a dinosaur, because all the stuff they were selling was aimed at their custom install clients, who could easily spend £20K - £30K at a time. Needless to say, they paid their sales staff the rates "our" juniors earned and there's no free parking unless you can get a permit and cadge a space in a street nearby......

I can guarantee that despite its simple casework, the little Croft preamp would be at least as good as the Linn on offer. I suspect the former costs Glenn around a ton to make. At Linns profit margins, I reckon it would sell for £1000 or so. Go figure ;)

SteveW
06-09-2009, 21:51
Hi Steve,



You make some valid points, but unfortunately you also highlight the (for me) ludicrous cost of some commercial 'hi-end' kit, which I just don't feel offers any sort of real value for money. And here I'm not just talking specifically about Linn.

Knowing what I know now from going down the modification route about the cost of even the best internal components available (since for example buying various high quality 'bits' to put in the new crossovers of my Tannoys) I would not dream of dropping the sort of money you've quoted above for any non-bespoke commercial products, especially when one considers that the likes of Croft have released a valve preamp, including an all-valve phono stage, for £350 which I'd bet would easily compete with the Akurate Kontrol preamp above in terms of out-and-out audio performance.

I'd love to do the test (were it possible) in either of our systems! :eyebrows:

You might not believe that now, but once you've visited me and I've introduced you to what judiciously selected and modified valve equipment can do, I'm confident you will see the futility of spending big bucks on commercially produced solid-state equipment from anyone, not just Linn! ;)

As for the Akurate DS, again I'd bet that this chap here would give it a run for its money in terms of pure audio performance (I'm not interested in functions or flexibility):

http://www.modwright.com/modifications/9 Also shown in this thread: http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=3764

...And it costs $3800, not £3900!!! :smoking:

I know that you love your Linn active system at the moment, and you've every right to do so, but don't you think it would be nice one day to be able to upgrade your system significantly without spending many thousands of pounds for the privilege by having to pay Linn for their exorbitant mark-up?

Try and get your head around SPPV with hi-fi and examining products from smaller specialist manufacturers, like I have, and I promise that you'll never look back... Just think of how much more music you could buy with the money you save!! :cool:

Marco.

Well...like I said Marco... Buying Linn at these prices (for most of the kit) really aint gonna happen.
But...I keep an open mind. If I honestly felt that the Linn stuff was superior.. or sounded better - then hey, if I could afford it, then I'd pull the trigger.

I suspect though, you are probably right. After all in the last few weeks I've discovered what a £200 Standac (ok, Caiman) can do. Add that to a £60 Airport Express and I've got a world class streaming set up.

Marco
06-09-2009, 21:58
There's obviously hope for you yet, Steve! ;)

Marco.

Alex_UK
06-09-2009, 22:18
You're absolutely right with your observations, Alex, business is business, and we're talking about two entirely different markets.

However, this 'lifestyle' nonsense in hi-fi drives down standards in performance, in terms of ultimate sound quality, which is a total anathema to purists such as me, and I would hope the vast majority of people on this forum! :)

The fact that Linn have embraced a market which for them seems more profitable now doesn't mean that those who grew up knowing Linn for what they once stood for have to stand back and admire it...

Perhaps Linn's traditional customer base wouldn't have "scurried off to pursue alternatives" if Linn had remained true to their purist origins? Think about that.

AOS exists to champion the cause of the purist, not pander to the banal sensibilities of the lifestyle set.

Marco.

Just to be clear, I wasn't "endorsing" the lifestyle market (and it's not just Linn that are chasing it) - nor admiring it - but I guess there are just not enough purists like us, with big enough wallets and no idea of the alternatives to pay their overheads!

I would suspect that forums like this will also have had a lot to do with it - the internet has been a fantastic way of democtratising power - in the case of hi-fi, power that was once owned by the "establishment" of manufacturers, but mainly the hi-fi press - most of us would regard 5 people on here saying a bit of kit is good as much more influential than 1 good press review - and just look at how the "underground" has rocked the establishment with well regarded products like the Beresford DAC, "Cawleyised" Techie turntables, Mark Grant Cables at a fraction of the price of "boutique" offerings - to name but 3. But then that is also probably a totally different topic of discussion! ;)

Marco
06-09-2009, 22:58
How very true, Alex! And it's those products and others like them which AOS will always seek to promote - it's at the very core of our ethos :)

Rocking the 'establishment' is just what we love to do! :eyebrows:

Marco.

bigmoog
07-09-2009, 08:29
One of the reasons I dont use any Linn equipment, apart from the huge cost, is the fact that really, the music quality does not justify the outlay. Back in the seventies and eighties, I would regularly listen to my friends linn/naim systems..and a relative of mine - a life long hifi nutter, who had a full on Linn front end (at one point he used a SME III on the LP12....he would spent forever, tuning it or swapping arms/cartridges, to get a suitable sound), always coming away disappointed, mainly because of the big hype: ' the best ' , 'reference'....' motor unit is £300'....lots of money to an impoverished music lover who aspired to great gear. Of all the years I have owned big ticket equipment or DIY or 'budget', Linn gear has disappointed me the most.

(IMO, IME), Invariably the replayed music is either one dimensional, flat, grey and sterile, or bombastic, flat, grey and sterile . Probably the biggest favour Ivor did music is to keep Vinyl at the forefront of decent reproduction...remember the Basik or Axis -.....in fact I enjoyed the Axis, it seemed more sensible to me than a suspended 3 point like the LP12.

The biggest problem is that these days with the closed clique of linn fanbois (not my term, one used here and elsewhere),is that its like the eighties all over again, 'you dont own an Linn LP12?..all else is gaslight'. Which is total Cobblers.


Im off to polish my acoustic solid and to fettle with a DJ mate's 1210.

DSJR
07-09-2009, 08:45
There's obviously hope for you yet, Steve! ;)

Marco.

All he needs is a pair of ADM9.1's and a sub and I bet he'll have a better speaker setup too................. I mean, he's half way to what Ash has been going on about for the last two years ;)

Marco
07-09-2009, 08:52
Yes, but he might want some bass, too! :eyebrows:

As Scotty says: 'Ye canny defy the laws of physics, Captain'.

Marco.

DSJR
07-09-2009, 09:02
That's why I said WITH SUB Marco. Methinks you need some glasses :ner:


P.S. I'm playing Pat Moraz "I" on original first pressing for the first time in thirty years... I abandoned it because the "everything including kitchen sink" production sounded awful. I'm stunned how good this pressing is and the clarity is superb. Can't wait to hear it on a decent "big" system.

Marco
07-09-2009, 09:11
Dave, dahling, I deliberately bodyswerved it... Subs suck, daddy-o, and the AVI one won't be any different :ner:

Besides, I can't even remember what active Linn speakers Steve uses. If it's something like Keltiks, he ain't gonna want to downsize to toy-sized speakers like ADM9s, even with a sub!

By the way, what's with the Ash/AVI love-in thing - are you on commission or have you two got some other thing goin' on? :eyebrows:

Marco.

DSJR
07-09-2009, 09:40
Marco, what's with the Dave Cawley/Timestep Jelco Techie love-in thing - are you on commission or have you two got some other thing going on? :ner:

See - works both ways.............:gig:

Marco
07-09-2009, 09:47
But you don't own any AVI! :ner:

I endorse equipment that I actually own.

Sell yer Spendors and CDP then and buy an Apple thingy, and we'll soon see how devoted you are to ADM9s and the Jamesy-boy :lol:

Marco.

SteveW
07-09-2009, 10:07
One of the reasons I dont use any Linn equipment, apart from the huge cost, is the fact that really, the music quality does not justify the outlay. Back in the seventies and eighties...

No argument with anybody that Linn kit is expensive. Possibly even too expensive, but that is a call for each individual.

However...please don't think that Linn kit still sounds like it did 10 or 20 years ago. It doesn't.

Marco
07-09-2009, 10:09
No it sounds worse! :lol:

;)

Apart from the classic LP12 of the 70s (with stock PSU, Grace/Supex), Linn's golden era for me, in terms of electronics, was the early 90s when the likes of the Karik/Numerik, Kremlin (Keilidhs and Keltiks) were born - hence my comment above. For me, their stuff has gone slowly downhill since then.

I still remember when Steve Toy brought his brand-new Majik CDP round to mine, when I had just bought the Sony (then CDP R1/DAS-R1) and it was completely unmodified. He'd heard that I'd got this ancient old Jap thing and thought that his Linn would trounce it.

Those silly notions, however, soon evaporated as the respective 'Play' buttons were pressed. The look on his face was priceless - you could see a very big message hitting home!! Then I 'adulterated' him further by later introducing him to valves... :eyebrows:

Btw, what's your view of 'upgrading' to ADM9s? I forget what speakers you're using.

Marco.

DSJR
07-09-2009, 10:11
I own an AVI S2000 MP+P preamp and a damned good reference it is too. I currently like what the Croft is doing with the current setup, especially with vinyl...

Yes, I really should be getting ADM9.1's with a sub. They'd look tons better in the sitting-room, which is one reason the ATC's will be going soon. I've been left these BC2's and with re-calibrated replacement later-type bass units plus the other tweaks, they're sounding quite enchanting and I've not enjoyed music so much in years!!!!!!!

Currently playing an original LP pressing of "Going For the One" by Yes. A bit trebly, but the clarity is superb, especially on "Parallels.." The bridged Crowns are doing at least as much good as the Radford STA-25 I first heard this LP through with BC1's...

Marco
07-09-2009, 10:45
I own an AVI S2000 MP+P preamp and a damned good reference it is too...


I stand corrected, Dave - just never seen you mention it before. Yes, that's when AVI used to make proper hi-fi and equipment I'd actually consider using ;)

I liked nearly all their 'legacy' gear, particularly their big 3-way floorstanders. Nowadays they just make toys for the (largely) uninitiated computer-audio set.

The reason why the Croft sounds better is because it's got glowy things inside! You'll struggle to beat a Croft phono stage with anything, particularly when it's been judiciously modified, like mine :)

Marco.

SteveW
07-09-2009, 10:57
No it sounds worse! :lol:

;)

Apart from the classic LP12 of the 70s (with stock PSU, Grace/Supex), Linn's golden era for me, in terms of electronics, was the early 90s, when the likes of the Karik/Numerik, Kremlin (Keilidhs and Keltiks) were born - hence my comment above. For me, their stuff has gone slowly downhill since then.

I still remember when Steve Toy brought his brand-new Majik CDP round to mine, when I had just bought the Sony (then CDP R1/DAS-R1) and it was completely unmodified. He'd heard that I'd got this ancient old Jap thing and thought that his Linn would trounce it.

Those silly notions, however, soon evaporated as the respective 'Play' buttons were pressed. The look on his face was priceless - you could see a very big message hitting home!! Then I 'adulterated' him further by later introducing him to valves... :eyebrows:

Btw, what's your view of 'upgrading' to ADM9s? I forget what speakers you're using.

Marco.

Had a Reggie Perrin moment there...thought of you 'adulterating' anyone is scary.
I use active Tukans..now, here's a whole other nest of worms (its a CJ thing for those that understand!)..because my long suffering wife has been wonderful about me lugging hi-fi and vinyl from house to house and around the world and she is very happy with having these either side of the fireplace. Its my one big compromise..everything else I get away with...but nothing bigger than the Tukans (hence upgrades will have to move backwards from the speakers! - Sonus Faber Cremona Auditors should do it!).

I have an iMac that supplies the wireless stream (from a Study) and at one point I had thought about those ADM9's. However having a spare 7510 DAC - I feed an optic signal into that and listen through headphones. Think the route I'm more likely to take there in the study is using the 7510 (or another Caiman when Stan makes 'em :) ) into a small set up.
Hey....A Linn Classik !!:lol:

Marco
07-09-2009, 11:07
LOL, and why not? I rate the Classik - nice bit of gear for the job it was designed for, and great value too :)

If Linn made more kit like that, I'd not be on here laying into them!!

I've also heard the Tukans, and liked them... Jeez, I'm getting a bit worried - that's another two bits of Linn kit I like! :drugs:

Forget ADM9s, what you need is a nice pair of classic Kans! In terms of 'musicality' (on the end of a decent LP12) they're one of the best speakers Linn ever made, and voiced rather differently to your Tuks - smaller, too!

Marco.

DSJR
07-09-2009, 11:22
Klassik Kans SCREECH - yech!!!!! Tukans passive are much better (sold them both and did the comparison) and do work well when akiv driven. It's just the cost.....

The ONLY Kans I liked were an active pair driven with four 135's (total overkill), but on Radio 4 and standing outside the Studio 99 "Concert Room" I honestly thought there were two men having a conversation in there.....

Marco
07-09-2009, 11:28
They don't screech on the end of proper equipment, Dave ;)

I heard a mate's pair recently in his system - you know Duncan (Tubehunter) who posts here and makes the sexy-looking copper valve DACs and Avondale-based SS amps?

Well they sounded fantastic, albeit limited in scale, and there was no hint whatsoever of any 'screechiness', trust me - that was the Naim amps you were probably hearing!

Marco.

SteveW
07-09-2009, 11:30
The Tukans will end up in the kitchen...or in the basement (home theatre)as part of 2nd/3rd systems.

Nah...It may be a lifestyle choice, but I do love the sound of the Sonus Fabers...and I'm told they sound mighty fine driven by valves!!

So,Marco,you might get the chance to adulterate me yet...chase me, chase me.:lolsign:

DSJR
07-09-2009, 12:08
The SF's can be a bit "squidgey" in the bass compared to Tukans and also the bigger floor-standing Cremona, a beautiful looking and very finely "voiced" speaker IMO..

Marco
07-09-2009, 12:22
Yes I'd agree with that (some call them Sonus Flabber), but much depends on the model of speaker and the sonic characteristcs of the amps being used. However, as Steve will be going for stand-mounts, overblown bass is not likely to be so much of an issue.

Another mate of mine uses the little SF standmounts, which the current 'Toy' replaced, and they sound rather nice on the end of his Naim gear.

Which SFs were you considering, Steve?

Marco.

P.S I can see I'm going to have to expose you to the delights of my little room when you visit, shweety :eyebrows:

SteveW
07-09-2009, 13:16
You're not going to show me whats behind the little door are you?

I'm thinking of the Cremona Auditors. I've been told that the newer model is tighter.

Anyway...its more than a year before anything is actually going to happen...so no rush.

DSJR
07-09-2009, 13:55
The mid and top of the Cremona Auditor was lovely, just the musical but slightly "soft" bass, that's all. The Ellipsa version is rather different I understand and a bit more expensive too...

There was one - around £1200pr - the Signum, I think it was. if you can find a pair, they have a bright, Kan-esque balance, but significantly more transparent and NO QUACK!!! They sounded beautiful with equipment that gave a proper soundstage...

Ancient history now though...

bigmoog
07-09-2009, 14:23
I think Naim CD players are quite useful music makers, possibly way overpriced but superbly built imo. I also enjoy Rega CDPs, I still occasionally use an original Planet, its a bit fat and flabbly but quite serviceable.

SteveW
07-09-2009, 16:48
The SF's can be a bit "squidgey" in the bass compared to Tukans and also the bigger floor-standing Cremona, a beautiful looking and very finely "voiced" speaker IMO..

For ages I always knew the Tukans lacked a bit of bass...until I was recommended those little Quadraspire skeet things, that I've stuck under each stand spike.
Suddenly bingo!!

Joe
07-09-2009, 19:28
Then I 'adulterated' him further by later introducing him to valves... :eyebrows:



Whereabouts did you 'introduce' the valves?

Joe
07-09-2009, 19:32
AOS exists to champion the cause of the purist, not pander to the banal sensibilities of the lifestyle set.

Marco.

Give me Love, give me Can, give me Meatloaf
Give me Rush, give me Marquee Moon
Michael Ball, or The Fall
I could listen to them all
In the twilight or the afternoon

Irk the purists
Irk the purists
Irk the purists
It’s a right good laugh

Irk the purists
Irk the purists
Irk the purists at the back

Hall & Oates, random Goth, Miles Davis
Patti Smith, Simply Red, Sly Stone
Be they false or for real, I don’t care and nor does Neil
So long as we can hear their song

Irk the purists
Irk the purists
it could well be an Olympic sport

Irk the purists
Irk the purists
If you’ve never, then you ought

Husker Du-Du-Du
Captain Beefheart, ELO
Chris de Burgh
Sun Ra
Del Amitri
John Coltrane

Irk the purists
Irk the purists
Come on now boy, you know it feels so right

Irk the purists
Irk the purists
Irk the purists tonight

Marco
07-09-2009, 19:37
Whereabouts did you 'introduce' the valves?


Quite near his filament, if I recall.

Nice little ditty there, btw. Class.

Marco.

DSJR
07-09-2009, 19:39
I think Naim CD players are quite useful music makers, possibly way overpriced but superbly built imo. I also enjoy Rega CDPs, I still occasionally use an original Planet, its a bit fat and flabbly but quite serviceable.

Some old Naim CD players can be made to sing sweetly (ACD3 - Les has replacement mechs too - Naim ran out some time ago). One or two expensive Naim CD players sound really very good indeed. All the rest are harsh and "noisy" IMO..

The Planet has an extremely high output impedance which won't work properly with most ss inputs of 20K or less. You really need a 100K input (or ditch the output rf filter in line with Acoustica's recommendations) :)

Marco
08-09-2009, 13:00
Hi Dave,

Could you clarify something for me in your earlier post #123, which I've just noticed:


the sales director praised on the other site for his wonderful service to his Naim clients...


Whom are you referring to?

Cheers.

Marco.

DSJR
08-09-2009, 16:59
I can't. The business has long gone, the individual is doing something now with custom installs I believe (well he was a few years ago) and as stated, the memories of this particular situation are rather stressful and not somewhere I want to go...

Marco
08-09-2009, 17:01
Tease!! :ner:

Marco.

DSJR
08-09-2009, 17:11
I'm a coward, but regularly rocked the boat a bit back then and got into trouble for my efforts. The chap who's marriage went to pieces is a long-standing friend of mine (although we're not in regular contact these days) and although this issue wasn't the whole story, it was a significant factor.

Having been recently censured elsewhere because I "worked on the shop-floor for a wage" and fell victim to their spin and hype, continue to zealously use "legacy" audio and tried to explain that computer-audio people almost certainly won't be spending £2K on Naim's new DAC and to just let them be, I don't feel I want to discuss this or the other maker or their products again for a good while. I'm becoming so out of touch now in any case................

Marco
08-09-2009, 17:16
S'ok, mate - chillax. I'm just teasing :eyebrows:

Marco.

hifi_dave
08-09-2009, 18:16
Dave,
Don't let the bastards get you down, you're worth a thousand of them and don't forget, you're welcome here anytime for an update session.:gig: