(Hypothetical) Upgrade suggestions requested

[Macca]

Hi All

I would very much appreciate it if you would be so kind as to offer me the benefit of your experience in upgrading my present kit. I do have about twenty years experience of cocking about with various bits of Hi-fi and pro kit; building 'speakers and PA systems so I am not a total neophyte when it comes to these things although I would not pretend to be anything other than a dabbler.

Nowadys life is far more mundane - what changes that is being able to come in from work, sit down , have can of beer and listen to something fantastic-sounding, even if it's only for an hour or so before reality impedes again. I am hoping that you are all with me so far on this.

I feel I am at a point where although I want to make improvements I am both out of my depth in terms of previous experience but am prepared, maybe , to spend some money to achieve a level of sound quality that I know (from experience) is possible

What I am using at the moment:

Cambridge Azure 840p CD Player
LinnLK1/LK100
Chord Odyssey bi-wire
Celestion A2 Speakers

Interconnects are Linn

Listening room is 29'x11.5' concrete floor,brick walls and well damped. Speakers are aimed down the length of the room, placed about 5' from the back wall (I have to do this because of an open staircase in one corner (some fairly amateur pics on the Gallery if you haven't looked).

Bass resolution and dynamics are very good but not excellent. Lower mid is good but not great. That I can live with. The main issue I have (and I have it with many of the sytems I have heard), is that upper mid and top are a little soft and a little splashy. Now although I am sure you know what I am trying to convey with this but I must emphasise that this is a question of degrees and within that margin and on my system It is a 'little' splashy. Sometimes. Just a little.

But it annoys the hell out of me.

Cymbol strikes, shimmers, that sort of sound - the problem is worse or better depending on the recording of course. But I have had (even) more modest kit in the past that did cymbals better - original Denon PMA250 UK and a Cambridge P70 to name but two. (And into a number of different 'speakers too).

I have a Systemdek IIXE, Basik Plus and Ortofon MK400 and this sounds little better than the CD player with cymbols etc so I am thinking that I need to look at the amps.

However this is a hypothetical question so please don't be afraid to pitch in with anything, however crazy. This is very much a 'what would you do?' sort of thing.

(Hypothetical) budget is £1000 plus any re-sale of whatever you think should be scrapped.

Please have a go.

Thanks

Martin

[swampy]

It is best to listen to other's systems if possible and also with music styles you like and not be pressured into choosing gear based on someone else's ears and music taste. Most peeps tend to tune their system sound to their own ears / room / music. Also sticking to 2nd hand can save you a shed load of cash and allow you to resell items at little or no loss if you find they are not suiting long term. Buying from a dealer = loss at resale.

Don't dismiss vintage stuff. i.e. Just because it is an old 70's solid state amp may not mean it is junk. Some very hi-end hifi was made through the 70/80's as manufacturers competed against each other. I have heard many older amps and speakers annihilate what I have heard in a dealer show room to the point of being embarrassing.

[Ali Tait]

What you hear is what I often hear from solid-state amps.It may be worth having a listen to some valve amps if you can.To my ears,they just make things sound so much more natural and unforced.

[chris@panteg]

I would start with looking at a different amp , you could try a nice valve amp like an Icon or similar ' but also consider the matching Cambridge 840a ' i have the 740a and its a sweet sounding amp with a clean crisp top end ' not splashy or soft .

[StanleyB]

I would get rid of the LK1 and substitute it for a DAC with a variable output. Then use that with the LK100. If you have the LK100 with the RCA type input sockets, you are laughing. If it is the Canon type outputs, then you'll need to get the RCA to Canon cables to connect between DAC and power amp.

[The Vinyl Adventure]

stans option would certainly be a good starting point that might help ferther isolate the cause of the splashyness in the sound
what stan of course cant say is if you wait a few weeks he will be selling his caiman dacs again which are definatly up there with some truly high end gear and for only £200 + vat -
http://www.homehifi.co.uk

[DSJR]

My tuppence worth - get rid of the Lk1 while it's still working !!!!!!!!!! most will be almost burned out on the power-supply regulators by now and Linn ceased support ages ago, once the replacement mother boards they had made ran out...

The LK100 sounds a bit rough and grainy to me and, by now, will be feeling its age on the power suply caps. The LK140 was much cleaner sounding (wonderful how good those car-amp chips can sound ;)) but is still a little "lean-toned."

One middle-aged power amp to consider could be the Arcam FMJ stereo power amp. Much beefier and sweeter in presentation with more kick than the amp in their big integrated.

The Chord Odyssey is a popular "HiFi" cable choice and I sold loads of the stuff, but it is more than a bit "hyped" in the treble regions and can sound positively scrappy on an un-sympathetic system. I'd suggest a 2.5mm or 4mm cross-section OFC copper cable such as the Van-Damme round blue stuff or similar. The Odyssey is fantastic on Spendor S series speakers though, the lively cables balancing the rather damped (but not dull) S and Se series tonal balance IMO.

The 840C has apparently one of the finest DAC's in the business, so I doubt anything could be gained by adding yet another good DAC to what's in yours, to be honest. A really good preamp such as that made by Glenn Croft would be my choice, the excellent phono stage and transparent line inputs should improve both sources no end (I think it's important to get BOTH CD and LP to work properly and it's not difficult to do IMO).

Now to the Linn "black" interconnects.. Linn people swore by them and were deeply suspicious of non-kosher alternatives, despite there being much more refined cables out there at not too silly prices, such as Chord Chameleon 2, VDH 102 mk3 etc... That was, until their "silver" cable came along at a price to match..... These days, Flashback Sales and Mark Grant can supply some superb wires at "trade" prices and for much less than £30 per metre pair, you'll have a very much better sounding wire than the over-priced Linn effort - should be retailed at £30, not £50 IMO, giving a trade price of £10 - £15 made up. I also like the ebay sources "SoundStable" cables, which use Van Damme pro Patch mic cables and Neutric plugs, again, costing around twenty to twenty five notes for a metre pair IIRC.

I don't know the Celestions very well, but the big ones I once heard sounded very refined and a bit full of themselves if anything. I don't remember the treble being an issue and suspect they're just reproducing errors further back in the electronics.... CAREFULLY check the drive-units for tightness in the cabinet and keep the speakers a fair distance out from walls and corners if at all possible.

Hope the above helps you..


P.S. I can type you through a Basik Plus overhaul if you want me to later - I did enough of 'em in me time :)

[StanleyB]

Do you play vinyl or have any intention to do so? Forking out on a Croft preamp with phono input would wipe out the best part of your budget.

If you only intend to play CD based digital material, then hanging on to your existing CD player for that purpose is a sensible suggestion. If you intend to venture further into other types of digital audio, then you are going to need a DAC and the Croft peamp route would then be money badly spent. Let's just say that I have had numerous Croft gear scattered around my house in the last 12 months for me to base my judgment on...

[DSJR]

Crofty does a line input version now with optional external phono stage :) HiFi Dave tells me the line pre is around £400 - not bad for a hand built product (from the ground up), hard wired, a fair looking case and sold through a small dealer network.. he's a good guy (like you Stan) and deserves a good plug when I can give one (I still love the old 'un I have and it suits my set far better than the more "correct" AVI I also own).

As I understand it - Croft pre with phono - £750, Line pre - £400, separate phono amp £600.

I'm sure the line preamp with Cambridge 640P phono stage would be a great starter and with the LK100/LK1 flogged, a good valve (or otherwise) power amp could be obtained.....

[Macca]

Gentlemen

Many, many thanks to all of you for your well-considered replies. It is much appreciated.

It has reassured me greatly that you all point a finger to the pre-amp/amplification in general as this was the line I was already thinking down. I am sure the amp and 'speakers are capable of much better than I am currently getting.

I do like the idea of valves having once heard a Harmon Kardon stereo power amp and Halfler pre through some Radford transmission lines; but the A2s do require some real current in the bass and are not that sensitive/efficient so I suspect a valve power/intergrated amp of requisite quality is stretching things a little too much just for now.

I am intrigued with the idea of getting a DAC with variable output; but I have about 500 vinyl LPs so I do want to retain that replay option without running the signal through a DAC first (using the LK1 as a phono stage I suppose). Or is there a way around this?

I know Croft are highly rated but I never heard any - would the pre with phono stage plus the LK100 (for now) be an much of an improvement? And more important is it possible to try it in my system in my room before I buy? I have to say that from experience a demo at a dealership, in their room through their system tells one very little.

Chris- I liked your suggestion of trying the matching Cambridge 840a - I can get a home demo of this from the local Richer Sounds but I was unwilling to go to the time and effort without a recommendation. I may well do this next week. If so I'll post how it goes.

DSJR - I agree the Linn Cables are not great and I do have some silver Audioquest cables but of course the LK1 uses those XLR sockets and getting a custom silver XLR made up will cost more than the pre amp is worth. I will celebrate the day I can get shut of them! Thanks for the offer of a tonearm overhaul - how technical is it? I have my limits!

Again - many thanks to all of you - I now have some serious food for thought - I will let you know of any developments - there will be some!:)

Best regards

Martin:)

[DSJR]

You don't need silver US made foo wires and you won't need XLR-phono wires either 'cos the LK1 is hitting ebay pronto innit? Hopefully with the grainy old LK100..

There's not much wrong with the 840A Cambridge, apart from the low price and the name on the front. If Krell made it, it would be £3K+. if Levinson made it, it would have a fancier box and sell for £5K+ (I doubt their integrateds currently are as good as the 840A).

Seriously, get out of the top end and get real. Much top end gear is made in the handfuls and commands huge profits/mark-ups as they sell in tiny quantities. Expensive wires are most often expensive because the dealers' profit is more than half the retail price a lot of the time.... A mark grant cable "trading" at £20 would retail for nigh on £60..

[Macca]

Thanks Dave

You've certainly convinced me to check out the Cambridge. I've swapped around a lot of cables and interconnects over the years and my opinion is that it's Horses for Courses (assuming the basics are right of course - I've never heard bell-wire sound better than a 79 strand for example).

Anyway - I am going to see if I can book a couple days of work and go and try and cut a deal with Richers for a home trial... As good as a Krell? - you know I so want to believe that! If it cuts the mustard I owe you (and Chris) a pint!

All the best

Martin

[StanleyB]

Anyway - I am going to see if I can book a couple days of work and go and try and cut a deal with Richers for a home trial... As good as a Krell? - you know I so want to believe that! If it cuts the mustard I owe you (and Chris) a pint!


There is also the option of trying out a TC-7520SE which some say is hard to distinguish from a Naim £5K or more CDP;).
So you have the choice of a £800 item that is similar to £3K , or a £230 item that is similar to £5K....

[The Vinyl Adventure]

You should work for a tabloid paper stan ;) hear a rumour/comment that might be beneficial to your sales ... Ad a but of spin, and put it out there! Hehe I love it!
Would you like me to see if I can get a review out of these guys that I will be putting the caiman up against some high end naim and linn sources with! I dunno if they will but it might be quite interesting hearing what they have to say, being as they sell the high end naim and linn kit but are also pretty honest in thier veiws!

[StanleyB]

You should work for a tabloid paper stan ;)
What would AoS be without a bit of banter;). I hope not many take it serious.




Would you like me to see if I can get a review out of these guys that I will be putting the caiman up against some high end naim and linn sources with! I dunno if they will but it might be quite interesting hearing what they have to say, being as they sell the high end naim and linn kit but are also pretty honest in thier veiws!
I am certain that many AoS visitors would appreciate your efforts Hamish. Just take your time to type it out...

Getting back on topic somewhat: I myself like the vinyl sound. In particular the timing, delivery, reverb, and soundstage. I even design my DACs according to those principles. But unless one has heard the vinyl sound and liked it, the term means nothing.

There's however a wider range of amps and speakers out there that were designed in the digital era, with many exhibiting their own digital-to-analogue signature. If upgrading is under consideration, then knocking together items A, B, and C because each of them is supposed to be outstanding in their own right, can easily end in tears. So the bits in the music chain have to be is harmony with each other and form a coherent bond. It can be an expensive nightmare trying to find the offending/weakest link in a music chain. Even the electricity supply can become a suspect in that case.

[The Vinyl Adventure]

What would AoS be without a bit of banter;). I hope not many take it serious.


im fairly certain most of people here got your "sence of humor" ;)



I am certain that many AoS visitors would appreciate your efforts Hamish. Just take your time to type it out...


are you in some way insuinuating that i dont take my time over my posts and that perhaps my grammar and spelling are not so hot ...
erm....yeah.... you would probably be right

i would try much harder if i was to do a write up..ie do it in word and spell check it first!

sorry ... thread hijack of the more rude type here... il be quite now

[chris@panteg]

Thanks Dave

You've certainly convinced me to check out the Cambridge. I've swapped around a lot of cables and interconnects over the years and my opinion is that it's Horses for Courses (assuming the basics are right of course - I've never heard bell-wire sound better than a 79 strand for example).

Anyway - I am going to see if I can book a couple days of work and go and try and cut a deal with Richers for a home trial... As good as a Krell? - you know I so want to believe that! If it cuts the mustard I owe you (and Chris) a pint!

All the best

Martin

Hi Martin

Well mine's a Blacksheep ' seriously i hope you like the CA amp ' i think it could keep you happy for a few years ' i intend to keep my 740a for some time.

I will be interested to see if it works well with your speakers ' its so crucial to get this partnership right.

[DSJR]

I'm sure Stan and I would agree on many things, except that today, I don't believe you have to spend thousands of pounds on a CD player unless you want a fancy milled case with blingy add-ons. The electronics are too cheap these days.. let's face it Stan, at today's dealer margins, if you sold your DAC's through retail, they'd go for as much as the 840C does - well, perhaps the 740C.........

I hope this won't be for a few years yet, but when the laser on my machine gives out, I don't really know what I'm going to do. Even if the CD-M1 light-pen is still available, I don't know anyone locally who would have the special mirror-tool to set it up on the swing-arm properly and I'm still not ready to have a computer as a transport yet, let alone a NAS to store all the discs on...