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View Full Version : Please help a newbie upgrade his system with second-hand/vintage gear



Nick_G
08-08-2009, 12:28
Hi all.

I'm thinking of upgrading my hi-fi system over the next couple of years as I'd love to get that thrilling 'you are there' experience that just isn't really happening with my current set-up. Because I can't afford upgrading with new separates, it seems logical to go for second-hand components, probably from the 70s through to the 90s.

This is my current set-up:

Rotel RA04 integrated amplifier

B&W 601 Series 2 speakers with Vivanco speaker cable (not sure which type)

Sony SCD-XB940 SACD player

Onkyo T-4970 FM/AM tuner

Tascam CD-RW900SL CD recorder (which to me sounds better than the CD player)

Sony XDR-F1HD FM/AM/HD tuner with enhanced de-emphasis correction circuit (for DXing)

I can't remember what interconnects I'm using but I think the CD player/recorder are connected with Chord interconnects.

So, is there any way of replacing the amp, speakers, CD player and Onkyo tuner with older gear that'll make a big improvement? I'd love to get proper audiophile performance with forking out thousands of pounds so going vintage must be the way to go.

I really want to spend no more than £500-£1000 on this project in total if I can, and it'll take a while to save up.

I'm not looking for a digital music server like the Squeezebox. My computer is actually at the opposite end of the house to the hi-fi system, and I intend to keep it that way. So I'm not looking to go the MP3/Internet/music server way just yet. This is why I use the CD recorder - I do a lot of recording off the radio.

In fact, I am a big radio fan, and so would like to get a vintage audiophile grade tuner, comparable to, say, the Rotel RHT10 or one of the better Kenwoods or even a Revox perhaps. It needs to be sensitive too as my aerial is placed for DXing rather than local transmitters. (I do hope to get a rotator to get around this problem at some stage but that's another story).

I'd like a tuner that gives the 'you are there' factor on live recordings, and I think to make the most of such a tuner, I'd need to upgrade the amp and speakers. I am planning to have the Onkyo tuner aligned and serviced as I think it needs it, and I may then sell it on eBay. I've never seen one on UK eBay before so hopefully will get a decent price for it.

I also have a Sony MD-JB930 Mini Disc deck (full working order) which has been superseded by the CD recorder and I plan to sell this too. I also have a Sony TA-FB930R amp which has an intermittent fault with the speaker selector relays, as well as a Sony ST-SA3ES tuner, which probably has a dry joint in the front end (I'd occasionally lose reception). So, I don't know how much I could sell all these things for but it'd be a start, and I could start looking for an amp and speakers, perhaps.


I've seen a pair of KEF Reference 103.2 speakers together with stands, for example, on sale for just £100. This looks promising as I've heard very good things about them.

I'm also lusting after the Rotel Michi separates range but even today these seem to go for about £800-900 on eBay so out of my price range. Anything of older vintage that would be as good for less money?

Am I aiming too high here? I'm hoping to get a significant improvement in sound quality from what I'm getting now. Are there 80s/90s amps or 70s/80s speakers that could do this for me without breaking the bank?

I did nearly go for a second hand Naim amp a couple of years ago but decided against it as the non-standard interconnects would have made things complicated.

Vintage has to be the way to go, I think, as you get more 'sound for your pound'. So, can I really get a proper audiophile system this way?

Thanks in advance for any advice.

Jason P
11-08-2009, 16:06
Hi Nick,

Bit of a thorny one this - I guess that's why no-one has jumped in yet!!

I suppose it's difficult to know what is best to do to get you that wow factor. Any number of vintage components could work - but on the other hand may not. There is a danger that you could but a load of 'top notch' vintage stuff, put it all together and it'll sound like sh**e. System synergy is hard to define and even harder to achieve without experience - allied to which if you were to spend a grand you could probably get a complete new system that may well hit all the points you're looking for...

None of your kit makes me recoil in horror so it's all 'OK' - but if it ain't giving you that thang then you need to start somewhere.

I'd look at optimising what you have. For a start, some decent cable for your speakers (if yours is Vivanco) will make a world of difference. Look at Mark Grant's cable - it's not too expensive, in fact cheap for the quality. Ditto for any interconnects that are no good.

Make sure all your kit is on a proper shelved stand - look at Atacama, Quadraspire et al.

Make sure your speakers are on good stands too, correctly positioned - though this may be something you don't want to spend money on if you're going to buy floorstanders later.

As for the tuner, make sure you have a decent aerial - a proper one is vital for that 'being there' reception, and without it no amount of money on a tuner will give you what you need. I'm running an £18 NAD analogue tuner with a decent aerial in the loft and it's good; a better, professionally set up aerial on the roof (cost about £100 I reckon) would be better still.

Sorry if this is teaching you to suck eggs but I think getting the basics right first will pay dividends later - money spent on stands, interconnects and the like, provided you don't go overboard, will never be wasted.

Then you'll have a good idea of what you system can really do - and a good starting point from which to expand on.

HTH

Jason

DSJR
11-08-2009, 23:49
I think I saw this elsewhere.

A quick comment to those who dislike B&W 601's - If they're original ones, they'll be getting on for fifteen years old now and the treble should have toned down well. the later 601's traded a certain tweeter untidiness for a sting and spit and I have no idea if this will have tamed by now...

Glancing at the reply above, getting your existing gear to work at its best is the first thing to do before wholesale changes. The hierarchy idea still holds pretty true - the Rotel amp is more than good enough to show improvements in the sources should you wish to go there.. The Michi range was special and rare and that's why it's so expensive.

There are some great analogue tuners out there. The NAD's used to be superb, even the old 4020 model and the 4155 "Schotz" model could sound great. A good aerial is essential as stated above. Rotel made some really good tuners over the years in their slim black style.

For good CD players from yester-year, the Arcam Alpha 5 can be bought cheaply enough, sent off to Avondale (Les keeps re-furbished mechs too for these) and will come back a giant-killer - same for the Naim CD3 he does up.

Old Naim amps are like a bag of nails to me these days, but again, Les at Avondale can do some genuinely decent tweaks and stability upgrades which show what their old products should have been (there can be a problem with proprietorial/dictatorial/paternal company bosses who start off with vision but hamper development later if it doesn't fit in with their narrow viewpoint)

Nick_G
13-08-2009, 17:22
Thanks for the replies.

The B&Ws were bought about 11 years ago so I don't know if they are originals. I do plan to replace them with floor standers.

I've been thinking about this and I want to do this properly. So I plan to find some weekend work to get some extra cash coming in, and then when there's enough to buy some speakers and an amp wholesale I will do that. That way even though I am going the second-hand route I'll still have the original amp/speakers to fall back on if I don't like the new ones, and I can re-sell them.

After doing some research I'm actually thinking of getting an Accuphase amp. I see that the E-206 integrated amp has been selling for around €450 on German eBay. From what I've read Accuphase gear is very highly regarded, built like a tank, and plays most styles of music, without having a particular preference. I may even get an Accuphase T-101 tuner to go with it.

As for speakers, the KEF 104ab floor standers look tempting. Are these likely to be any good with the Accuphase amp?

The CD player will have to wait I think; certainly the Accuphase ones are out of the question as they seem to sell for thousands of pounds!

Jason P
13-08-2009, 22:21
Problem is Nick, you're buying on spec and that's never a good way to do it. You need to hear this stuff in order to get it right.

You're looking for the 'shivers down the spine' effect, and in my opinion that doesn't happen often without good synergy - and that's something that is hard to define and even harder to predict.

Someone may say X is a great amp and Y are brilliant speakers, but how will you know if they suit you? Sounds to me like you may be up for a little valve magic (I know I am!) but till I've heard what I'm likely to buy then getting it on someone's say-so can be a costly mistake.

Go to bake-offs, have a listen to stuff and if you really need to scratch that equipment itch, do one thing at a time. That way, if your amp is wonderful but a bit light on drive you'll know to look for efficient speakers, and you stand a sporting chance of getting a good match.

One other thing to think of - get a good DAC like a Caiman. It'll improve your digital sources no end (assuming they have digital out) and will broaden your options (and cheapen them too) when it comes to getting a good front end. It'd be £200 well spent.

Jason

Joe
15-08-2009, 09:34
Buying secondhand is definitely the way to go; any mistakes will cost you much less as you can sell on what you don't like at little or no loss on what you paid.

Having said that, I think you'd be lucky to upgrade the lot for £1000 and make significant improvements. The trouble is that putting together a system with bits and bobs of vintage/secondhand kit is like assembling a jigsaw puzzle without the picture on the box; you never know what the end result will be. Add to this the fact that all electronics will deteriorate over time, even if it still works, so you won't be hearing its full potential (see Marco's Tannoy thread).

An option is to consider what were regarded as 'synergistic' systems in their day (which gets around the 'jigsaw puzzle' issue to some extent). An example would be Exposure amps matched with Epos speakers. Also try to get stuff that can still be serviced/upgraded by the manufacturer.

Unfortunately there's no way of knowing in advance what a particular set of speakers will sound like in your own room, and that can be a 'make or break' consideration. Indeed I'd say the speaker/room interface is one of the key considerations, so if you can't buy speakers on a trial basis at least try to hear them in a room that as near to your own in size/shape/furnishing as possible. Or, seriously, go for a really good pair of headphones and avoid room issues completely!

Good luck with your quest!

Marco
15-08-2009, 09:46
Having said that, I think you'd be lucky to upgrade the lot for £1000 and make significant improvements. The trouble is that putting together a system with bits and bobs of vintage/secondhand kit is like assembling a jigsaw puzzle without the picture on the box; you never know what the end result will be. Add to this the fact that all electronics will deteriorate over time, even if it still works, so you won't be hearing its full potential (see Marco's Tannoy thread).


I absolutely agree, Joe. However, if you know how to judiciously cherry-pick the best vintage gear, and what components to upgrade in their design, (as I've done) the rewards of doing so are considerable - all achieved at relatively low cost in terms of high-end hi-fi prices :)

I would not recommend anyone going that route though unless they have the necessary knowledge and experience to make sensible choices.

Marco.

Nick_G
15-08-2009, 16:08
Thanks again guys.

Does anyone think that the Accuphase amp would be a good choice? It seems like a good bet to me - Accuphase seem to have a legendary reputation and in my research I'm finding nothing but praise for their products.

I hope I can find a hi-fi dealer that has an old Accuphase amp I can listen to but that might be a bit of a tall order...

shuggz
16-08-2009, 09:56
Hi all.

I'm thinking of upgrading my hi-fi system over the next couple of years as I'd love to get that thrilling 'you are there' experience that just isn't really happening with my current set-up. Because I can't afford upgrading with new separates, it seems logical to go for second-hand components, probably from the 70s through to the 90s.


Nick

When you say you wish to get that thrilling 'you are there' experience I assume you've heard other peoples systems and want to get something of a similar vein or their systems has shown something is missing from yours.

I'd look at improving your interconnects/speaker cable and getting a Beresford DAC as a starting point.

But in all honesty I think you'll have to make compromises if you wish to just spend the sum of money you mention, but you may well be pleasantly surprised at how cost effective tweaks can yield big improvements.

Try to borrow kit before parting with cash, because the sound you want will not be the same as other folks.

Hope that helps.

Shuggz

Nick_G
16-08-2009, 23:17
Well I'm hoping to get some part-time/weekend work to raise some funds (probably not easy at the moment, but shop work will do). If I can save, say, £50 a week for a couple of years, then in theory I'll have around £4500 saved up by the end of it, but I suspect it'll be less than that. However, I do now hope to eventually spend perhaps £3000 in total (less any money I make selling old stuff).

Like I said, I want to do this properly. Perhaps I'll do it in stages as I get enough cash for each component. Someone mentioned a ratio of what proportions to spend on an amp, speakers, and CD player although does this theory go out the window when buying second-hand?

In my case this is also likely to include an Accuphase T-100 tuner hence the logical assumption that an Accuphase amp would be a good match.

Thoughts much appreciated.

Jason P
17-08-2009, 11:45
STEP AWAY FROM THE ACCUPHASE!!!

Not really, but it seems you've become fixated on it rather than hearing advice that's been given... I know why!! Shiny boxed are SOOOO much more fun to buy than dull interconnects and little nondecsript DACs:lolsign:

Seriously though - do the basics. Money spent on this will never be wasted. You may suddenly find that the outlay of say £400 on a Beresford, a decent SH rack, some Black Mamba or Mark Grant speaker cables and MG interconnects and you've transformed your system overnight. If it hasn't, you know that bigger component changes are needed - but a DAC like a 7520 will give you LOTS of options for tweaking with relatively low cost CDPsand ALL of the stuff you've spent money on will be useable for a long time. Give yourself time to get used to the sound (Beresford DACs take time to run in) and you'll have a great starting point. All the money in the world won't make your system better if the basics are cack.

So - whats it to be - building blocks or sexy boxes? ;)

Jason