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Jason P
07-08-2009, 18:27
Hi all,

Having just missed an as-new Icon Stereo 25 going for a song I'm seriously contemplating stepping in to the murky world of valves... be afraid, be very afraid...:mental:

SO, for someone on a low budget - what's good, what's to avoid, any pointers? It'd be driving my Castle Stirlings (91db sensitivity AFAIK) and I'm not into massive loud, but do like a bit of verve and sparkle in my choonz. Ideally with 4 line ins, or 3 and a tape loop. I'm not in to massive amounts of DIY farkling but can wield a soldering iron. Budget? Well the Icon was going for £300 so around that.

Suggestions gratefully received, AOSers

Jason

Mike
07-08-2009, 18:42
Keep your eyes open for a WD KEL84!... Or stretch your budget slightly further and buy the kit.

Without a doubt I CANNOT think of any amp anywhere near that price that could more deservingly be called "a giant killer"... It is a truly magnificent amplifier! It would make plenty of volume with 91dB loudspeaker too!

http://wduk.worldomain.net/acatalog/info_KEL84.html

Cheers...

The Vinyl Adventure
07-08-2009, 18:59
i asume that you refer to a hypothetical second hand one at £300.. i looked into that my self for a while but decided i couldnt afford it... £300 , frustratingly, would have been reasonable at the time if i had know if such a thing was possibly out there for such a price!

Mike
07-08-2009, 19:01
Yep... at £300 you'd be looking second hand. Which is about the price a used KEL84 goes for. :)

Jason P
08-08-2009, 12:48
Thanks for that info Mike. I'd thought about one of those, though I thought also it might be a bit beyond me, build-wise. Having had a look at an old thread where Sid & Coke sold his (pity I wasn't in the market for that one) it doesn't look beyond me, it's just the testing I'd be wary of.

How does this stack up against stuff like old Audio innovations and others if a similar ilk?

Jason

Spectral Morn
08-08-2009, 17:03
Thanks for that info Mike. I'd thought about one of those, though I thought also it might be a bit beyond me, build-wise. Having had a look at an old thread where Sid & Coke sold his (pity I wasn't in the market for that one) it doesn't look beyond me, it's just the testing I'd be wary of.

How does this stack up against stuff like old Audio innovations and others if a similar ilk?

Jason


IMHO old Audio Innovations is very good, but a Series 300 mk1 or 2 would be in your budget and I would go for the mk1 as IMHO/E it sounds better and looks better than the mk2. However an early series 500 would be a much better amp with 25 watts class A and allow some tube rolling 6L6, 5881 can be used instead of its normal El34 tubes/valves. It looks really nice as well. Normal S/H price is about £300 to £500.

There are things you can do to make it better as well. Replacing the volume pot, source selector and hard mounting the rca jacks to the case rather than the crap board they are on from new, will bring about improvements (its what I had done to mine).

If you want to see what it looks like there is a thread in the gallery..... Link http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=2006

The early ones have a black case and the 4/8/16 ohm impedance outputs (later had 4 and 8 only) for the speakers. I would avoid the latter ones as I don't think they sound as good or are as well made as the first versions. Is it better the WAD...no idea, never heard one.



Regards D S D L

anthonyTD
08-08-2009, 18:25
audio inovations made some great little amps!!!
A...

Spectral Morn
08-08-2009, 22:35
audio inovations made some great little amps!!!
A...


When I am back in a job it might be interesting to see what you could do to an AI series 500....room for improvement. The old Anthony TD magic;)



Regards D S D L

Jason P
10-08-2009, 07:37
Thanks all for the info, lots to be getting in to here!!

One other thought - the dreaded Chinese designs. I'm aware that there are pros and cons, and looking on various fora their exponents are as vociferous as their detractors. Aside from voltage issues, are there any bargains to be had there, taking in to account thet I may need to spend a few quid 'fettling' one? Any reputable sources?

Jason

Ali Tait
10-08-2009, 21:06
If you can get one,a Mr Liang 845 (2007 model) would be a good choice.A very well built and great sounding amp.

David Price
10-08-2009, 21:23
If you can build it yourself, the World Designs stuff is superb; all from one of the very best designers in the business - Andy Grove. If not, the Icon is a good place to start. With entry level tube stuff it's essential to get a good amp-speaker match, which means you'll need speakers with an efficiency of *at least* 89dB; 91dB-plus is more in the comfort zone. Forget about anything less; they'll sound like (to use Edmund Blackadder's description of Baldrick) an asthmatic ant...

worrasf
20-08-2009, 19:18
The other thing to consider is what valves to use inside the amp when you have decided on make/model - for preamps/preamp section the choice makes a huge difference and can totally change the sound. Most use a pair of ECC83 variants for the phono stage and an ECC81 variant for the line stage - most new amps will come with new valves which tend not to be as good as older ones - I note Icon Audio offer new old stock options which are generally to be preferred. For a superb overview take a look at http://www.jacmusic.com/nos/ECC83.htm
and if you are considering punting a few quid definitely take a look at:
http://www.jacmusic.com/nos/ECC83-part-numbering1.html

After mucho trial and error in my Croft Vitale I finally settled on a pair of NOS 1970's vintage TESLA E83CC's for the phono stage (better than the 1959 TFK 12AX7's I was using) and an Uber rare 1958 Telefunken ECC801S for the line stage. The TESLA/TFK's give an very fast detailed sound with stunning highs, if you prefer a warmer tone then suggest you go for Mullard equivilants (original Tung Sol are in the middle in "tone terms"). Believe me if you think choosing a valve amp is tricky wait till you start choosing the valves to go in it:scratch:

Jason P
07-09-2009, 19:59
Well, I took the plunge and got a Yaqin MC10l from the dreaded 'Bay - but not from a HK importer. This was s/h from a nice chap in Wales, and as he was holidaying near me he offered a weeks' trial with no strings...

Suffice to say it's still here. Now I'm not for one minute saying it's the last word in amps, but for the £175 I paid for it it's a BIG step up from the NAD I was using before, and I figured if I didn't like it I wasn't going to lose a whole lot selling it on.

Build quality seems fine (at least externally; I haven't taken it's clothes off yet) and it is a 240v version. I can't check heater voltages but there are no untoward signs of excessive glowing from the valves.

Sound wise - well given that this is a standard one with stock valves, it betters the NAD considirably. It's a wierd sensation listening to valves for the first time - a much fuller sound, smoother BUT with far more detail. It's hard to quantify, but doing an AB with the NAD using Terry Callier's excellent TimePeace album, the sense of realism of individual instruments was far more palpable. Timbre, definition and placement have all been bettered. Soundstage has expanded and is a far more rounded presentation, forward and back as well as extending beyond the speakers. And yes, I'm hearing details that I haven't heard before!!

The Techhie is sounding very sweet through it too, it's a good match for the 103 (now nuded) and vinyl in general - especially older pre 80s recordings, although having just blasted out the first half of Colour of Spring by Talk Talk that's not a hard and fast rule - as an aside that's an all analogue album with lots of tubes used in the recording, and a must have for an example of a top-notch vinyl pressing, as well as being a bloody good album!

My other half (who isn't in to hifi) instantly commented that 'it's like a round sphere compared to a flat disc' in terms of presentation. Fortunately she thinks valves look very funky too...

So now I need to look for a new set of valves (they're spares darling, honest!) to hopefully better the stock chinese ones; I'm kicking myself 'cos I missed a set of four Svetlana Winged Cs for £50 but could do with some advice on what to look for; I'd like something a little more open and bright that stock, but will the power valves or input ones make the most difference? Input are 6n1's BTW - not common AFAICMO and there is some dissent about what can be used as a straight substitute.

So any comments welcome; I feel I may have just embarked on a slippery slope...:doh::eyebrows:

Jason

alb
07-09-2009, 21:58
Jason.

The trouble with tube recommendations is, that what sounds great in someone elses amp may not be the same in yours.
You really need to find someone with the same amp, who has been there before you and found some combinations that work.

I'd be especially wary of anything advertised as a replacement for 6n1.
If you want a wider choice of input valves, i would consider putting the amp in the hands of someone who knows what they are doing, and see what they suggest.

I have a quad of Electro Harmonix EL34 that you are welcome to try. They were ok-ish in an old push pull amp, but i find them a bit boring in my single ended.
It might help you cross some off your list.:)

I used to quite like JJs in my World Designs PP amp, but i 've not heard any lately.
EH 6ca7 might be an alternative, and are my current favourites of the sensibly priced tubes..
It could be an expensive game to keep buying quads in the hope of finding some nice ones.