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The Grand Wazoo
01-08-2009, 00:53
Getting it all Back Together Again…………or New Horizons………..or A Blank Canvas………

The New Wazoo?
Call it what you will, I’m moving to a new house.

It has:

New rooms with different construction
New mains connection
New FM transmitter
New neighbours
New local record shops
New broadband connection
New AoS neighbours

Shit! – what’ll it be like?
I plan to keep an evolving record of what happens throughout the changes. It will be interesting for me, & hopefully for some of the members of AoS.

We picked up the keys of the new place just the other day. It’s a rented place in a village/small town in semi-rural northern Lancashire. We’re keeping our old house in Lincs for the foreseeable future (no-one’s future is assured these days, so it’ll be good to have a soft landing if there’s an effluent/whirling-bladed-cooling device interface situation. We’re fortunate enough to have already been able to pay off our mortgage, so hopefully the expense of an extra house won’t be too crippling).

So, we’ve only just got our first opportunity to really get a proper feel for the new place.........it’s not quite as I remembered it from the brief viewing we had a few weeks ago!

The main room is interesting, as it’s tapered, has solid & very thick stone walls & a concrete floor. There’s a truly massive stone fireplace halfway down one of the side walls. There are three internal doors. It averages about 18’ x 12’, but goes down to about 10’ in width at the narrow end. There are one and a half outside walls.

That room is where the speakers will be. However, I don't know if the geometry will allow me to use my big Mirage speakers here or not - they need lots of room, both to the sides & behind them and they're big buggers. The arrangement of the doors, fireplace & likely routes of foot-traffic may well rule them out. If so, then I've got my trusty and under-used SD Acoustic OBS's to use. It'll be fun finding out!

Photos below:
http://img132.imageshack.us/img132/6856/imgp1713.jpg

Window & door into kitchen - the under-stairs space will be filled with books
http://img374.imageshack.us/img374/448/imgp1711.jpg

http://img268.imageshack.us/img268/6394/imgp1712.jpg


There's More!
Just off the main room is a small room (smaller than I recalled), which will house the main elements of the system, the records, CD’s & a collection of my magazines & books. The construction is similar to the main room but there are three outside walls. I also plan to have the RCM here and a big old dumpy armchair installed (think Bagpuss with castors), so I can rumple and fetish my treasures (so to speak). I’ll have an extra CD player, receiver or power amp and speakers here, in addition to the main system components so I can listen to music while I direct operations from the Bagchair. This plan may have to change a bit because the room size may not exactly fit in with my aspirations!
(Rather uninformative) Photo below:
http://img380.imageshack.us/img380/4581/imgp1714h.jpg



Believe it or not, there’s a third playroom!!!!
This is very long (18’) but also very narrow. Again, stone built. At each end there’s an outside wall & there’s also a thick party wall with another massive fireplace in it. This will be a study & ‘real music room’. It will house various guitars, amps, a Cello & a Korg stage piano as well the PC, a StanDAC, my Yamaha receiver & some speakers.

Pictures below:
http://img31.imageshack.us/img31/1843/imgp1717.jpg
........Consider this one as my contribution to the ‘Show Us What You Look Like’ thread (that’s me in the fireplace!)


http://img397.imageshack.us/img397/3681/imgp1716.jpg
......dontcha just love that carpet!

Well, as it's 01:53 in the morning & I'm picking up a van at the crack o' the sparrow's fart to actually start doing all this, so I'd better bugger off & try & score some Zzzzzzzzz's.

More to come......plenty more!

Mike
01-08-2009, 01:01
Woha!... sounds like fun/a nightmare... Best of luck. ;)

I remember our last house move. <shudders at the thought>

Beechwoods
01-08-2009, 04:47
Bring it on... this should be a very interesting thread!

Marco
01-08-2009, 05:34
I love the house, Chris... Nice period features - none of yer modern 'Wendy House' pish! ;)

Looks like a nice place to put a hi-fi system, too... :smoking:

I hope your family and you will be very happy there :)

Look forward to reading about how it all goes - good luck!

Marco.

The Grand Wazoo
01-08-2009, 07:20
Mike, Nick, Marco,

Thanks a lot guys!
'Ere, while you're handy, grab one corner of this each, & help me stick it that van!!

Oh, well..........once more unto the breach...........back in a bit!!
(........wanders off looking worried & muttering about grazed elbows)

kcc123
01-08-2009, 08:30
Hi Chris,
A very nice place, congratulations!
Moving house is no fun at all, best of luck!

Joe
01-08-2009, 11:47
........Consider this one as my contribution to the ‘Show Us What You Look Like’ thread (that’s me in the fireplace!)


Losing your religion?

Marco
01-08-2009, 12:14
Nah, look more closely, he's just about to bash out a beef olive... Squeeze hard, mate! :lol:

No toilet fitted yet, innit? :eyebrows:

Marco.

aquapiranha
02-08-2009, 00:02
Very nice Chris. As you say there are quite a few AoS members not too far away. Do you have any external pics?

Marco
02-08-2009, 00:26
LOL. Admit it, you just want to break in and steal all his records, eh, ya wee Cestrian delinquent? :lol:

;)

Marco.

aquapiranha
02-08-2009, 00:38
Being the delinquent that I am, I had to look up the word 'cestrian' ..

'A resident of, or person from, the city of Chester, England.'

Close, but not that close. There is however no way I am going to fit through that little window at the back of the lounge, I need something more akin to to patio doors if I am to stand a chance of releiving Chris of his chattels.

;-)

REM
02-08-2009, 11:09
Greetings Chris and welcome to the historic County Palatine of Lancaster.

You are indeed fortunate to have landed in a really beautiful part of the country with easy access to some fabulous countryside. This time of year it's best to give the worlds' biggest car/coach park aka The Lake District a miss but do have a nosy around The Trough of Bowland SEE HERE (http://www.pagemost.com/Trough-of-Bowland-Lancashire) and the Ribble Valley HERE (http://www.ribblevalley.gov.uk/site/scripts/documents.php?categoryID=1248).
Being a forestry chap you may already be familiar with the areas but if not I think you may be in for a treat.
Hope all goes well with the move, I suppose you'll be ready for a few :cool: tonight.

Cheers

Mike Reed
02-08-2009, 18:21
Best wishes for the move.

I don't envy you, setting up all your kit in an unknown acoustic venue with rural ( overhead?) mains. The dimensions seen reasonable, providing the ceiling isn't too low, but stone floors? I wonder if this would have a similar effect (on speakers, especially) to concrete floors, as I moved from suspended to solid. Prefer solid.

Look forward to further reports.

Barry
02-08-2009, 23:58
Good luck with the move Chris.

I'm sure that all of us on AoS will be following your Odyssey with great interest!

Just remember where the corkscrew/bottle opener is when you start to unpack - you'll need it!

Regards

The Grand Wazoo
04-08-2009, 16:06
Checking back in for a few moments - I fear there's going to be a very interupted service on this thread for the next couple of weeks as the phone connection won't happen for a couple of days & broadband is going to be even longer.

Thanks to one & all for comments of support & interest.

The bulk of our belongings necessary for everyday life are now in the new place & I'm sure for a few days yet, we'll be leaping over boxes & starting sentences with the words "Where did you put the.....".

One thing's for sure, though - I'm absolutely knackered! Saturday/Sunday/Monday involved almost exactly 1000 miles of driving, broken only by spells of lifting, carrying, loading & unloading. Because everyone who I might normally call upon for help in such times has been unavailable, we did it all ourselves - I need a new back, legs, arms & neck! Thank God for tail-lifts on Luton vans!!

The hi-fi gear is all in boxes in one room & the records & CD's are a little more diffused around the house.

I'll be back sometime (but I don't yet know when) but in the meantime I've got to go buy a corkscrew................(I wasn't able to read your remarkably insightful comment till it was too late, Barry!)

The Grand Wazoo
17-08-2009, 11:59
Still not got anything other than a temporary set up going yet.
No internet access at home yet either, so I can't even post piccies of that or the roomful of stacked cardboard boxes!

My enforced (almost) silence goes on.........

Hopefully, back soon!

Barry
17-08-2009, 13:41
Still not got anything other than a temporary set up going yet.
No internet access at home yet either, so I can't even post piccies of that or the roomful of stacked cardboard boxes!

My enforced (almost) silence goes on.........

Hopefully, back soon!

Hurry back Chris,

We're holding you to the 19th!

Regards

The Grand Wazoo
18-08-2009, 12:57
Hurry back Chris,

We're holding you to the 19th!

Regards

Try telling that to the Virgin Net & the BT Fusiliers! (......sounds like the name of a band)

They say I'm connected - but I get nuthink.

The Grand Wazoo
25-08-2009, 20:25
Well, the 19th it's most certainly not, but this evening I've got an internet connection!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Now I'll need some time to upload a heap of photos.
It's coming & I'm pedalling as fast as I can!!

Cheers all.

PS Marco, If you read this - I'm no longer a mirage.

The Vinyl Adventure
25-08-2009, 20:39
i have to say i find this thread really quite a draw! its really intriging to see how you make use of a new space...

Alex_UK
25-08-2009, 20:45
And I'm looking forward to seeing *that carpet* eat someone! ;)

Seriously, I agree - thanks for keeping us in the loop.

The Grand Wazoo
26-08-2009, 10:16
OK, so here lies the tale of setting up my gear in a new house, and in a room with a new set of acoustics.

PART 1

The old room was 24' x 13' x 7', had a concrete floor with a floating layer of solid birch boards on top. The speakers sat either side of a brick fireplace, about 1m away from the rear wall which was a pair of alcoves, shelved to house my CD collection and the power amps. They were about 80cm from the side walls & toed in very slightly. My speakers are Mirage M3 Si's, which are bipolar – meaning that they have rear firing drivers as well as forward firing ones. There's a 10" woofer at the front, along with a mid & treble driver. These last two are replicated on the rear, along with a reflex port. The listening position was about 4/5's of the way down the room & the rest of the gear was behind the sofa, inside an old blocked off fireplace.

The sounds I was getting in this room were pretty special, so I'm fairly loathed to be abandoning it. There was a fabulous sense of the recording acoustic, a big soundstage and great image placement. There was detail enough for me and the bass was pretty seismic, but with great control.

Can this be replicated or bettered in a room of significantly smaller proportions? – I don't know. Let's see, shall we!



The new room is going to be tricky because of the position of the various doors, fireplace & under-stairs space. All these conspire to make domestic harmony among big speakers a possibly unattainable goal in this setting. If the big Mirages can't work, then I have another speaker option I can try – some SD Acoustics OBS's (still fairly large, but not anywhere near the scale of the Mirages).

A plus is that all the gear & software (except for speakers and power amps) is going into a separate, dedicated room, off to the side.

Below is a plan of the room(s) & the two possibilities I have in mind to try. It's a sketch, so don't get hung up too much on it – it's only meant to give you an idea of the relative layout, rather than the absolute positions of things.
You'll see that the fireplace is off centre on the side wall & that any speaker positioned nearby the door in the end wall (to the kitchen) would be in the way.

http://img523.imageshack.us/img523/8664/48603838.jpg


S1 / S2 are possible speaker positions.
P is where I'd like to put the power amps.
R represents the other equipment racks.




Sleeves Rolled Up, Loins Fully Girded – Here We Go!
So on the designated day, all the gear & software was moved into the place & you couldn't move for boxes. Can't unpack anything because when you do that, there's other stuff where you want to put this stuff.

Apologies for photo quality, I had other things on my mind!
http://img329.imageshack.us/img329/1708/imgp1738.jpg

There's the answer to my earlier problem of what to transport my records in - the trusty banana box!

http://img329.imageshack.us/img329/2914/imgp1746.jpg

No amount of shuffling stuff around will give me any more elbow room where I need it

http://img329.imageshack.us/img329/9940/imgp1740.jpg

......and, boy do I need some bleedin' elbow room!

http://img329.imageshack.us/img329/9827/imgp1762.jpg

I swear there was another door in this room - where did dat go?

First thing's first then. Get all these boxes of records out the way.
Can't do that 'cos there are no shelves.
Right, we'll buy something at Ikea on the next trip back to the old place.
Days pass………….

Shelves bought.
Days pass

………Errrrm, now they need to be finished in some way before assembly.
Paintbrushes & coloured varnish to the ready, off we go.

Stop!!! Stop, Stop!!!.......We can't do all this work without music…….Gotta have music.
Right, we'll build a stopgap system in the living room. DVD player/Beresford DAC/Yamaha receiver/Tannoy Mercury's.

http://img329.imageshack.us/img329/8509/imgp1744.jpg

……Done! Ah, that's better. Hang on a mo', let's sit down have a cup of coffee & listen for a bit.

Mrs Wazoo: "Hmmm…..you know I hate Nick Drake? ………well, this actually makes his winging dirge sound almost enjoyable".

Thumbs up to Stan!

Day pass ……..while shelves are treated, dried and assembled. All the records we brought are now onto shelves. CD's can stay in their boxes for now – at least we've got some room to work.



………end of Part 1

The Vinyl Adventure
26-08-2009, 16:28
i really like the 2 room idea! is it a silly question to ask what about remote controls?

The Grand Wazoo
26-08-2009, 18:28
i really like the 2 room idea! is it a silly question to ask what about remote controls?

Not a silly question!

However, I'll have to restain myself from giving you a silly answer!

Actually, I rarely use them because the only item in the system that has one is the CD player. I guess it could be a major problem for some folks though. I'm hoping to lose a few stone with all the extra walking.

The Vinyl Adventure
26-08-2009, 18:57
Not a silly question!

However, I'll have to restain myself from giving you a silly answer!

Actually, I rarely use them because the only item in the system that has one is the CD player. I guess it could be a major problem for some folks though. I'm hoping to lose a few stone with all the extra walking.

well i supose it does provide an otherwise armchair based hobby with an element of exercise!
i did guess that you maybe had a few bits of kit that didnt have remotes
an if your used to getting up to do stuff to the hifi, walking around a corner is not really any different to being in a bigger room!
i myself couldnt do without a rmote control for the master volume as i dont adjust it until i am sat in the position i want to listen to the music.

i have expressed an interest with my missis for putting some of the main parts of kit in a separte room... hence some of the interest in this thread!
the conclusion i came to was that i would have to buy, or maybe even make/have made some kind of ir converter thingamajigga to send the remote signal down a cable to a different room and then back out some kind of ir eye..... like the sky multiroom eye thingys...
i imagine some of the diy-ers on this site could rig something up in half hour with the right bits!!

The Grand Wazoo
26-08-2009, 19:05
i imagine some of the diy-ers on this site could rig something up in half hour with the right bits!!

Well, if it could be done, I'd be in the market for one, but I'm not going to lose sleep over it in the meantime!

The Vinyl Adventure
26-08-2009, 19:12
it must be possible... i cant remember how the sky remote thing works but you can def press the button on the remote in one room an it changes the sky box in the other room.......

Beechwoods
26-08-2009, 19:26
You can get IR Extenders. They convert the IR signal to RF to transmit room to room.

Google has links if you look for IR Extender...

John
26-08-2009, 19:48
Great Thread I look forward to how this develops
I remember one time moving in and the neighbours seeing my speakers as I unpacked!!!

Alex_UK
26-08-2009, 20:14
You can get IR Extenders. They convert the IR signal to RF to transmit room to room.

Google has links if you look for IR Extender...

They work well, my mate wanted all his equipment hidden away behind solid doors (not for WAF purposes, I hasten to add, he was single at the time! ;) )so installed this type of thing, and it just worked.

The Vinyl Adventure
26-08-2009, 20:15
haha i had the same with my neighbour .. turns out hes into his hifi too.. was a good icebreaker to be fair!

Spectral Morn
26-08-2009, 22:01
This sort of thing is common enough in the world of multi-room and custom install. Personally I want my kit out on view, but if we had children then in another room or in a secure area would be ideal, but for me a big compromise. You need IR distribution receivers and transmitters, or wireless. Hub receiver sits with the gear, IR broadcast units are affixed to the IR windows on the gear and a receiver broadcast unit in the room you want to operate it from. Simples...


Regards D S D L

The Vinyl Adventure
26-08-2009, 22:10
its a space issue for me...the hifi takes up a lot of space in a room the size my lounge ... if i had more room i could maybe arange the room/speakers for more optimal listening

The Grand Wazoo
27-08-2009, 18:23
its a space issue for me...the hifi takes up a lot of space in a room the size my lounge ... if i had more room i could maybe arange the room/speakers for more optimal listening


Extra space & the bonus is that it's great to get the turntable & valves away from the speakers & into a different room.

The Grand Wazoo
27-08-2009, 18:29
So here's some vinyl loaded onto the shelves that caused the delay.........

http://img81.imageshack.us/img81/5559/imgp1748.jpg

Not much space on that one for future purchases, so we got another!!
This shot also gives you an idea of the tiny dimensions of this room - 10' X 6' with an angled end wall (about 60 deg).

The walls are thick, though - 2'2" to be exact!

Barry
29-08-2009, 23:37
Chris,

That's about double the records I have. Respect!

The Grand Wazoo
30-08-2009, 07:03
Chris,

That's about double the records I have. Respect!

Well, I don't want to rub in but we left a few hundred behind

The Grand Wazoo
01-09-2009, 00:49
PART 2

So, once the vinyl was loaded onto the shelves & out of the way, I had to move everything other than that being worked with out of the room.

While the shelves were delaying proceedings, I took the chance to clean all the connectors & sockets with alcohol - if you've never done this, you will not believe the crap that's on your plugs & sockets!

Time to make a start with the rack that will hold the mains conditioner (if needed), tuner & pre-amp. Once it was plonked down in roughly the right position, it became obvious that the floor rises significantly as it approaches the wall. Brilliant! This means we have about an hour ahead of us poncing about with spirit levels, spikes and spanners.

This is where I always get bloody heartburn, rolling around on the floor contorting myself into all sorts of impossible positions.

Once the rack is both absolutely level & rock solid (they are not the same, & to get both simultaneously requires some proper work). The first component went on. This is an ISOL-8 mains conditioner - a glorified extension lead. 6 components can be plugged into it & I've always found it great in old houses with less than perfect mains wiring. If, after experiments, it's not needed, I'll take it out later, but for now, it stays. To the underside of this I attached 3 large & very pointy Michell Tenderfeet cones, stuck there with double sided sticky tape. The points of the cones went into tiny spike pads to repeatably locate the whole lot in the right place on the rack. The pads were also stuck in place on the shelf with double sided sticky tape.

Next shelf, the Accuphase T-101 tuner.

http://img181.imageshack.us/img181/6813/imgp1750.jpg

This sits on hardwood-mounted cones, on spike pads which are stuck onto a small granite slab, also sitting on cones & pads.

http://img181.imageshack.us/img181/462/imgp1752.jpg

The short interconnect is a home made silver plated copper cable with PTFE insulation. There's a floating screen, connected to Earth only at the source end. This screen is constructed of foil-like strands that are very tightly woven around the two main stranded conductors which, are in turn, in their own PTFE insulation.

Next up is the pre-amp, an Audio Research SP8 - an all valve unit with phono stage.

http://img233.imageshack.us/img233/1900/imgp1754ikb.jpg

Isolation is the same arrangement as for the tuner.

http://img233.imageshack.us/img233/857/imgp1753.jpg

Isolation is a similar arrangement as for the tuner, though the cones between the granite & the shelf are made from 2" diameter steel bar with speaker stand top-plate spikes screwed into threaded holes. At some point, a large weight will be placed on top of the SP8's mesh top plate to prevent it vibrating. I have a couple of weights that I use for this purpose, made from old transformer frames. However, all of this focus on isolation & vibration control may be a little inconsequential as the kit is well away from any real influence from the speakers – the beauty of this two room arrangement.

Another small granite slab hangs over the back of the rack. This will support the Bent Audio Mu step up transformers. They need to be very close to the back of the pre-amp because they have short (8") captive leads on them.

http://img233.imageshack.us/img233/9185/imgp1755k.jpg

That's that rack done for now.

Next thing is the home for the CD player & turntable.
This is an HNE rack made from turned Beech timber & granite. All the other gear sits on another of these (or is supposed to). But I need some new legs for it. I have a wood lathe, but this job has been low on my to-do list for years. So the stopgap is a Sound Org rack.

Once again, levelling became a major job because of the floor.

Power supply for the TT goes onto the bottom shelf. CD player on the middle one.
This is an Accuphase DP67. It doesn't need any special isolation as it's build like a brick cludger, weighs a tonne & seems impervious to external influences.

Interconnect is the same as for the tuner, except a good bit longer.

http://img168.imageshack.us/img168/948/imgp1757.jpg

http://img220.imageshack.us/img220/6318/imgp1756z.jpg

http://img168.imageshack.us/img168/4442/imgp1758.jpg


Next job was the turntable - this calls for more levelling. The cone feet are located into spike pads to stop it skidding on the polished granite surface.
First the base is levelled, check the bearing oil, platter on & screwed down. Then the subchassis is levelled – this has drifted waaaaay out during the move, so extra care is required to get a nice, even bounce. The arm cable is dressed, making sure that both it & the power cable aren't touching anything they shouldn't. Take the belt from it's little bag of talcum, leaving the spare in there.

Check tonearm settings haven't shifted in transit. No - that's a plus.

http://img90.imageshack.us/img90/8620/imgp1759.jpg

http://img168.imageshack.us/img168/6370/imgp1760.jpg

http://img181.imageshack.us/img181/8690/imgp1761.jpg

Later, I'll have to find places to house the various other tuners, the spare phono stage, headphone amp & all the other peripheral stuff, but the main components are in place.

The next job is to try the two speaker locations, which will then inform me of the final location of the power amps. Oh, & there's a soldering job to do on one of the pre to power interconnects. In the old house it got stuck at one point where it had been tucked into the gap between wall & floating wood floor to hide it on its long journey around the edges of the room. I had to cut it to get it out! Luckily though, the room dimensions & layout here mean that it won't have to be so long anyway – it was about 12 metres, but is now 9 metres & 3 metres. I'll have to get the plugs off the short bits & onto the cut ends of the long bits - they may be shortened again if the distance between pre & power amps allows.


That's it for now.
Coming soon - power amps & speakers & speaker placement.

The Grand Wazoo
01-09-2009, 15:59
PART 3
The first position I tried the speakers in was with them firing across the room rather than down it. The reason for this was that my Mirage M3si's respond well to having a lot of space between them and the side walls. Being able to provide this results in a huge soundstage within which, the various musicians are well defined with pinpoint precision. This focus (if you'll excuse the extremely poor, but unintended pun) on soundstage & imaging is something I always look for in a system & has always been well catered for with mine. It's no accident that my gear is mainly from the other side of the Atlantic Ocean - imaging and good stage dimensions seem to be things that are generally higher on the list of listener priorities there than they are over here. It's also something that makes the Gyrodec that I own stand apart from many other turntables.

The speakers are a bipole design which means that they have extra drive units on the back. Bipolar working differs from a dipole arrangement in that the rear output is in-phase with the front output. To explain, you could equate a speaker driver to something which is blowing air, so with an open baffle or electrostatic design, you're hearing what the drivers are doing when they 'blow' out of the front and 'suck' to the rear. With a bipole you're only hearing 'blowing' – both front and rear.

I've drawn a diagram to try and illustrate this crap description
http://img140.imageshack.us/img140/9274/bipole.jpg

So, I started by placing the power amps in position 'P' on my room plan diagram (repeated below) and the speakers roughly in the positions marked S1 either side of the fireplace. They were each 1 metre from the rear wall and almost 2 metres apart, leaving over 1.5 metres to the side walls with no toe-in to the main listening position yet.

http://img523.imageshack.us/img523/8664/48603838.jpg

It was immediately obvious that this was going to give a big, open and airy sound and was very impressive with well recorded female vocals.

However, all was not good.

Some recordings seemed to push up the faders on the instruments & down on the vocals. The bass, although initially impressive, was overpowering a lot of the fine detail. Treble output seemed reduced. There was a slight hole in the centre of the stage, suggesting the speakers were too far apart given the relatively short distance between them and the listener. Toe-in might help this. There was also a bit of an emphasis towards the left channel. Domestic conditions must also be met by this set-up and these provided a problem too. Whatever position we tried the sofa in, someone sitting on it would be deafened by the proximity of a speaker or would hear only bass because of the duplicated mid & treble drivers cancelling themselves out when listening side on. Also, whatever way we tried things, someone was going to have a compromised view of the TV (or a sore neck) because of a big black obelisk sitting in the way.

Hmm, this was going to take some special kind of cure.
I tried to iron out the audio problems first with the idea that if it could be done, we might find a way round the domestic problems.

The reason for the emphasis towards the left hand channel was, I think because of the lack of symmetry in the room – i.e. the differing room width & the offset fireplace. It was soon found that this could be resolved through use of the balance control and a slightly asymmetrical toe-in. This also helped the hole in the middle problem. Good job too, as they couldn't be moved closer together without obscuring the TV even more!

The lack of treble puzzled me a bit – for a while I just couldn't get my head round it. Then I realised that the listening position was just too close to the speakers. Not being able to get my head round it was literally true!!! All of the forward treble was just whizzing straight over me & missing my ears completely (the tweeter is mounted very high on the Mirages). No wonder the bass was overpowering! Two ways to cure this – tilt the speakers forward slightly to get the tweeter axis lower, or get a taller seat! Neither of these particularly appealed, so the decision was made to abort position S1. I could have tried using my spare speakers, but as they are also floorstanders, the domestic situation wouldn't have been much improved.

So next, we tried position S2 – firing down the length of the room, earlier thought to be the one least likely to work well, & most likely to cause domestic disharmony. Things were not looking good!!

I started with them over 1 metre from the rear wall, and this time, about 2 feet from the side walls (I'm going metric inch by inch).

This position seemed, on balance a huge amount better. The 'domesticals' were agreeable right from the start with seating possible for everyone in non ear-bursting positions. A little adjustment would have to be made to ensure that the door from the hallway wouldn't knock the left hand speaker when opened and the power amps would have to be moved. This was OK because there were wall sockets well placed to allow for this & all other connections would be possible with the available cabling. After warming up the soldering iron, the previously snipped interconnect was re-terminated & the stop-gap cable was replaced.

The power amps were moved to their new position behind, and to the left of the left speaker (that's bottom right on the room plan). I use Mark Levinson amps from the early 1980's. There's an ML9, which is a 100 watt per channel model, to drive the bass. This device doubles its watt per channel output into each successive halving of speaker impedance, so it is able to drive a pretty harsh load with relative ease. Though it's not a Class A amp, Levinson didn't make as much fuss about their amps' ability to do this as some other manufacturers have. There is also a pair of rear mounted switches to adjust the damping factor – a useful facility in an amp driving bass. The treble & mid-range drivers are goosed up by an ML11, which delivers a wonderfully sweet 50 watts (with the same doubling capability as its bigger brother). Both of these amps use Camac connectors for their inputs (see my thread 'Was Mark Levinson Mad?' for a discussion specifically about these: http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=2740).

The connection from the pre-amp to the power amps is a little unconventional, because I take a single pair of interconnects from the pre & lead them into a little box near the power amps. I made this up with one pair of inputs & four pairs of outputs. This allows me to bi- or tri-amp and additionally to connect a headphone amp if I choose to. I can also solder resistors across one or more of the sets of connectors to allow gain matching if required. The ML amps are both of the same voltage gain, so this is not necessary in this set-up.

Interconnect cables are of the same type as those used for the sources. Speaker cables are terminated with spade connectors at the power amps and with pin connectors at the speaker end. These pin connectors came from Campaign Audio Design and were made to provide a high quality connector for those spring clip connectors that used to be on lots of hi-fi gear. I like them because they work well with Michell type speaker connectors. When using the side entry method you seem to be able to make a tighter connection when you screw down the knurled part, than you can with normal banana plugs. Mid & treble speaker cables are made from the same stuff I use for interconnects & from a similar but heavier grade for the bass end.

The soundstage was not quite as huge as the one in the previous set-up, but as the listening position was now 12 feet away instead of about 6 or 7, all of the previous problems disappeared.

Treble came back, meaning the bass was now back into proportion with everything else and was much more agile.
With the treble came fine detail, and lots of it.
Imaging seemed as good as it had been in the old house.
Everything was further improved by adding the Soundcare Superspikes to the speaker bases and getting things level and solid.

So, I think we've found the general position of the speakers. Fine tuning them will be a job for another day. When the optimum spots are found, we'll mark the carpet with some tape so as not to waste all that hard work, rip 'em out & have a go with the other speakers - the dipole SD Acoustics OBS's

More piccies to follow........

Alex_UK
01-09-2009, 16:53
Another great instalment Chris. I have visions of the Pickfords van still sat outside, waiting for you to get the music sorted before the rest of the stuff comes in - I'm right, aren't I? ;)

Look forward to the piccies!

The Grand Wazoo
01-09-2009, 18:07
Another great instalment Chris. I have visions of the Pickfords van still sat outside, waiting for you to get the music sorted before the rest of the stuff comes in - I'm right, aren't I? ;)

Look forward to the piccies!

Yeah, those guys are still there. They drink a hell of a lot of tea over the course of three weeks or so!

Haselsh1
02-09-2009, 08:03
Hey this really is the best kind of challenge. How many of us would love to start from scratch all over again with a completely blank canvas...? You are indeed very lucky/very daft...!!!

Marco
02-09-2009, 10:40
Looking good, Chris! Excellent 'diary of events', too - keep it up :)

We need a pic of yer shpeaks; haven't seen those, unless I've missed them.

Marco.

The Grand Wazoo
02-09-2009, 10:53
Looking good, Chris! Excellent 'diary of events', too - keep it up :)

We need a pic of yer shpeaks; haven't seen those, unless I've missed them.

Marco.

Thanks Marco,
No doubt this one has the potential to be a bit of a runner!
As for the speaker pictures - well, I don't think I need to tell you about how it's good sometimes to be kept in suspenders, do I?

Hahahaha.........They will be revealed in due course, me old mucker.

Cheers

Marco
02-09-2009, 11:29
Echellenty! :smoking:

Marco.

Jonboy
02-09-2009, 21:18
I'm enjoying your epilogue Chris, you put a lot of us to shame me thinks with your attention to detail and pursuit of your own perfection (i don't mean that in a derogitory way):)

The Grand Wazoo
02-09-2009, 22:44
Kind words from all, thanks a lot.
It's proving to be rather more fun than I thought it might be, but it's also taking much longer than I thought. The CD's still haven't been housed yet, so they're still in the boxes. There's still the fine tuning of speaker placement & the other speakers to try.

If I make the decision to go back to the SD speakers, I'll be looking to tri-amp by adding my Radford to drive the mid-range. That amp needs a little work, so there'll be another, probably much more prolonged delay till it comes fully to fruition.

Like I said to Marco, this could go on for quite a bit.

Anyway, I'm glad someone's else is enjoying my experience!

The Grand Wazoo
15-09-2009, 22:55
Spent most of the weekend getting, staining & assembling shelves for the CD's. Spent last night moving records from one shelf to another trying to get a different arrangement going.
It didn't work so I had to put them all back again - bastard!

Been having a mammoth CD unboxing ceremony tonight - getting the new shelves filled.
No matter how much you label the boxes or pay attention to the order they go in the box, some time between sealing the box & opening it again they always seem to get mixed up by the pesky alphabet pixies.

Been at it all night. Got my Lonnie Johnson's mixed up with my Joni Mitchell's. My Jan Garbareks tangled up with my Jean Luc Ponty's & God only knows where The Jayhawks have got to!

About 1/2 way there - I'll have it sorted tomorrow night. Then I've got to find somewhere to put the record cleaning machine.

Any thoughts of getting a comfy armchair in that room flew out the window when the last set of shelves flew in the door.

I'm really begining to look forward to getting the SD OBS's out of their boxes & goosing them up with some of that Levinson magic! Let's see how they fair against the Mirages.

Spectral Morn
16-09-2009, 08:16
Finding this thread very interesting and a little bit scary. The rooms in your home will always have the last say in terms of speaker placement and what works or not. Moving to a new home is about as scary as it gets, yes its a challenge and I suppose it could be fun; but only if it ultimately works out.

If I was to move I too would face a huge task with my music, movie and book collections. It was bad enough when I got married back in 1995, but I have so much more now. I take my hat of to you Chris....keep up the good work.


Regards D S D L

The Grand Wazoo
16-09-2009, 10:48
Finding this thread very interesting and a little bit scary. The rooms in your home will always have the last say in terms of speaker placement and what works or not. Moving to a new home is about as scary as it gets, yes its a challenge and I suppose it could be fun; but only if it ultimately works out.

If I was to move I too would face a huge task with my music, movie and book collections. It was bad enough when I got married back in 1995, but I have so much more now. I take my hat of to you Chris....keep up the good work.


Regards D S D L
I agree that the rooms will have the last & biggest say, I think.
I'm just trying to take my time so I can make sure everything's right - I'm often too busy (or is it lazy?) to go back & sort things later, if they're not right first time.

Oh my God - Books!! I haven't even really started on those yet!

The Grand Wazoo
23-09-2009, 00:01
PART FOUR

Well, this weekend I had a bit of a play with speaker cables.

I make my own cables from 2 grades of wire - more detail on this later, but for now, just the basic info.

My old speaker cables were way too long for this installation, so I thought I'd make up a set of shorter ones & try a twist on the old theme.

I used to use a mixture of the two grades call these 'Type B - fat/thin' - the finer stuff for the mid/treble and the heavier grade for the bass. I happened to have four 2.5 metre lengths of the heavy stuff that were about exactly what I needed for this set-up.

I also noticed that, since they are of a twisted helical geometry, it's possible to twist 2 runs together to get a neat bi-amp cable that holds together without untwisting - even where the two cables break out from each other if they're nipped with a bit of heatshrink.

So these were assembled & fitted - 'Type C - fat/fat' and the verdict was that they were a bit crap, really - a bit dull sounding compared to the older much longer 'Type B' hybrid of gauges .

Next I tried some old different branded cables from a previous incarnation - 'Type A - fat/thin'. Again, silver plated copper of 2 different gauges, with ptfe insulation, but this time solid core on the mid/treble & stranded on the bass.

Now this was much much better! Excellent, in fact. More treble detail, the dullness completely banished and bass definition restored. Better imaging.
An all round improvement.

So the next phase of the cable saga is to compare the 'Type A - fat/thin' set to:
a) going back to the old 'Type B- fat/thin' configuration, but shorter lengths. Was the twisting doing the damage - doubt it, but we'll see.
Or was the fat cable constricting the mid/treble? If so, then is it also doing bad things to the bass that I wasn't aware of?


b) to check that, I'll also have to try pairing up two lengths of the light grade that I can make up into a 'Type D - thin/thin' - I've got more of this, so that's possible too.

I hope you're following this, I'll take some photos sometime to try and make things more clear.


If it turns out that these tests show none of this stuff is as good as the older 'Type A - fat/thin', then it's going to make me address the interconnects too. They're all made from the thin stuff!
I might just have to check anyway.

So that episode is unresolved - I'm currently really enjoying the cables I abandoned years ago, they're great. Further experiments will have to wait for a bit. Because - I've got speakers to mess with!!!!!

The Grand Wazoo
23-09-2009, 01:15
PART FIVE

Just a taster of what's to come.

A big dust up between these guys:

Mirage M3Si (Merlot's favourite speakers!)

http://img443.imageshack.us/img443/8899/imgp1766x.jpg



..........and SD Acoustics OBS

http://img32.imageshack.us/img32/5710/imgp0207.jpg

Both are speakers that most folks have never come across.
Both are excellent.

The Mirages throw a huge soundstage & never endingly deep bass - in the right room but need lots of juice.
The SD's are almost holographic on image specificity - not far off Quads or LS35a's, they're just a little coloured, but work well even in quite small rooms and need very little juice - they make an 18-22 watt Radford sound like a massive beast.

The room remember, is 18x12(to 16)

Anyone got any views on what the outcome might be?


A little background:
Both models are getting on for 15-20 years old.

The Mirages are Bipoles, the SD's are Dipoles.

1x10" woofer on the Mirage, 1x8" woofer on the SD's

Both ported - Mirage twin front mounted, SD single rear mounted.

2x5" polyprop mid range cones on the Mirage (1 front/1 back), 1x5 1/2" (I think) on the SD's.

2x1" titanium dome/cloth suspension on the Mirage (1 front/1 back), 1xSEAS metal dome on the SD's

83 dB sensitivity on the Mirage (though bipolars have higher sensitivity than other types, because the standard measuring technique isn't appropriate - so real sensitivity is apparently equivalent to 87dB), 88dB on the SD's - but a very benign 88dB

Mirages will be bi-amped - bass/mid-treble, SD's also for this test, though they have 3 way split x-overs.

Dimensions - 134 x 46 x 24 cm on the Mirage (raised a tad by Soundcare Superspikes),
100 x 34 x 20 cm (18cm wide flying baffle) on the SD's

Modifications: None other than the spikes to the Mirages.
16mm of steel plate bolted to the bases of the SD's. Deflex panels inside the bass box.

Price when new:
Over £3000 on the Mirages
£800 on the SD's

So, let me know what you think & why. I'll answer any questions if I can.

The Vinyl Adventure
23-09-2009, 09:55
those sd speakers are an odd looking pair! the middle driver looks like the one in my dynaudios.

(do i sound like a thick blonde... "look at that car - it looks like my car - its wred")

The Grand Wazoo
23-09-2009, 10:02
I was going to say it was a Dynaudio, as that was how I remembered it, but I couldn't be sure I was right. So thanks for that, mate - you've confirmed my thoughts.

They do look a bit odd, but the narrow open baffle does it's job, helping with the precise image placement. The angled pieces are really only there to offer structural integrity, I'd say.

I'll take a photo of the back in a while.

The Vinyl Adventure
23-09-2009, 10:15
... so are they a mass produced thing or a small run made by a smaller company or what ...
i have only come across this idea of open baffle since joining this site.. and i have to say it has peaked my interest... i have read a lot of stuff about those linkwitz things, some people seem to think that in the right cicrumstances they are pretty much un beatable
is the key to these sort of things "the right circumstanses"?
i briefly enquired about makeing some basic ones my self, but after ferther investigation it looked like room size would be an issue

id be interested to see the back..

The Grand Wazoo
23-09-2009, 10:55
SD Acoustics were a pretty well respected company, though certainly not a household name.

SD stands for Steen Doessing - the engineer behind it all. He had a change of career & is now an arty style photographer!!

The first thing they did was the SD1 (1983) which was very well respected by some of the magazines. It had a ribbon tweeter & a 10" bass unit along with an integral frame stand.

Jerry (jandl100) had some for a while and seemed to like them:
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=1222&highlight=acoustics

The SD2 was a biggish stand mounter, again well liked & the SD3 was a bookshelf design. (Think I got that the right way round)

For the OBS, they wanted to take the better elements of the '1' & make a cheaper slightly smaller floorstander. They actually said at the time of it's release that in some ways it outperformed its big bro'. This, I discovered to be true later.

The OBS later turned into this:
http://listeninn.com/Website/Used-Speakers/SD-Acoustics.htm

After the OBS came the SD5 & a thing called The Ribbon which was supposed to be a bit of an amp buster & then I lost track. I do know that there was supposed to be a big four box system on its way - whether it came about, I don't know.

After a few years with these OBS's, I bagged a pair of SD1's for a bargain price, but preferred the old ones as there was better integration between the drivers & in my room that stood out a mile. Good bass though! I resold them for what I paid & unboxed the old OBS's.

Both of these models sell for really stupidly low prices, which is great if you're in the market for some, but a bit tough if you paid for a new pair. I've always loved mine & am so glad I hung onto them, using them in different rooms every now & then.

I think the thing with open baffles is that room size is an issue if you want big bass from OB bass drivers. So bass from a box is a good compromise.

However, the open, airy presentation, coupled with a fantastically realistic sense of the recording acoustic is something you can just fall in love with if you hear it.

The Vinyl Adventure
23-09-2009, 11:35
hmm, i shal perhaps keep an eye out if they go for good money!
that might well be a way to satisfy my intrigue about such things...

this thread does continue to be vary interesting by the way! me and the missis have found a house we like... its just a bugger we cant sell... hopefully soon though! id post a similar thread but i dont think i have the technical knowledge to go into such detail!

The Grand Wazoo
23-09-2009, 13:06
Hamish,
Some pics of the back & sides of the OBS's..........


http://img195.imageshack.us/img195/8625/sideofobs.jpg

There's a 3 sided grille which wraps around the front & a seperate one for the back - they actually don't detract much from the sound.

http://img195.imageshack.us/img195/3479/backofobs.jpg

I had a closer look at the mid driver & found the Dynaudio sticker on the side of the magnet, so we were right!

The cabling is solid core copper - SD were very keen on bi & tri wiring very early on & there's no doubt about the effect it has on their speakers.

The Vinyl Adventure
23-09-2009, 18:48
oh wow, there is a lot less to them from the side than i expected!
the dynaudio drivers are, as far as i know, quite unique in the way look. those big dust caps with the little holes round the side - i was always led to belive that they allow a bit of air flow through to keep the voice coil cooler ... but that could have just been salesmans bullcrap????? im not clever enough with this sort of thing to be able to judge for myself - although i did figure if that were true it would surly change how the whole speaker would work???? i gues it wouldnt matter on an ob design????
i have no real idea of what im talking about here so excuse me if thats all twoddle..
maybe you can.. or indeed anyone else tell me if i was blinded my salesman non-sence, or if indeed they do as i was told??

The Grand Wazoo
23-09-2009, 19:01
I haven't a clue, mate. Sorry!

Gotta get some corks on the end of those jumpers before I blow an amp up!

The Vinyl Adventure
23-09-2009, 19:07
ha, yeah, they do look slightly precarious! i could image a dogs inquisitive nose causing an issue there!

The Grand Wazoo
09-01-2010, 00:22
I took the day off work today in order to sort out a problem with the room that the hifi is in.
Over Christmas it became apparent that the room the gear and software is in suffers from a bad damp problem. The wall that the record shelves is against was streaming with water & making some of the sleeves damp or, in localised places, downright soggy.

Danger, Will Robinson, danger!!

What the hell to do?

I stuck a dehumidifier in & turned the heating up a bit in there straight away. The only thing I could think of doing was to strip everything away from the wall & assess whether the the room could continue being used in this way.

So today was the day. We took all the records & CD's off the shelves & checked over the walls - the situation's pretty bad - bubbles in the plaster, mold on the lower areas of the wall.

Luckily, the records didn't appear to be as bad as we'd first thought they might be.

As an interim measure we've put everything back, but the vinyl's now on the opposite (dry) wall & the equipment is against the wet one, but standing off it a fair way.
Photos to follow.

I know I've been a right slacker with this thread over the last few weeks, so there's some proper catching up to do.

The Grand Wazoo
09-01-2010, 11:29
OK, so for anyone who's interested, here's a photo of the new layout. Bear in mind it's a stitch up job of 3 images. The room is small so you're seeing 3 walls here - it's so small that I can't get far enough away to get all of the kit in the photo properly. The bottom shelf where the TT & CD player are is reserved for some lesser used tuners.

http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/1220/panoramaeq.jpg


Meanwhile in the room next door, we've got the business end going on.............

http://img442.imageshack.us/img442/5683/mootsnoots.jpg

Ali Tait
09-01-2010, 13:02
Looking good Chris.Hope you get the damp sorted.That kind of thing can get expensive!

Spectral Morn
09-01-2010, 18:03
My big problem at the minute is the cold. Living room at the fire end is okay, but at the window end, where the system is its cold...to cold during the day to switch anything on that isn't already on. I am afraid of condensation issues...in especially my valve amplifier. Damp and electricity don't mix....

Sorry to read about your problems Chris.....is it condensation or rising damp ? I assume its an outside wall..is the ground level outside higher than the floor level? Or is there an old fireplace there ? We had awful damp problems in this house of ours due to our next door neighbours fire places not being used...chimney stacks needing re-pointing and capped. We had a 3 foot high tide mark in the hall due to that and one under the stair case.... I got him to sort it out, and the problem was solved.

If the paint on the walls is gloss or satin..switching to matt can cure running walls. I once lived in the Isle of Man and the flat i moved into had gloss walls when winter hit if I switched the heating on..the walls ran with condensation. I asked for the walls to be painted matt paint, which they were in due course, and the problem was solved.

Hope you solve your problem soon.


Regards D S D L

Primalsea
09-01-2010, 18:21
My wife keeps asking me to look at her damp patch. I checked all round the walls in the house and found no damp at all. I have no idea what she's on about.:scratch:

Barry
09-01-2010, 22:20
My big problem at the minute is the cold. Living room at the fire end is okay, but at the window end, where the system is its cold...to cold during the day to switch anything on that isn't already on. I am afraid of condensation issues...in especially my valve amplifier. Damp and electricity don't mix....

Sorry to read about your problems Chris.....is it condensation or rising damp ? I assume its an outside wall..is the ground level outside higher than the floor level? Or is there an old fireplace there ? We had awful damp problems in this house of ours due to our next door neighbours fire places not being used...chimney stacks needing re-pointing and capped. We had a 3 foot high tide mark in the hall due to that and one under the stair case.... I got him to sort it out, and the problem was solved.

If the paint on the walls is gloss or satin..switching to matt can cure running walls. I once lived in the Isle of Man and the flat i moved into had gloss walls when winter hit if I switched the heating on..the walls ran with condensation. I asked for the walls to be painted matt paint, which they were in due course, and the problem was solved.

Hope you solve your problem soon.


Regards D S D L

Ideally the speakers ought to be cold (my Quads love the cold weather and like to be ~15 deg C!), whereas the turntable and cartridge ought to be at ~22 deg C.

I'm a bit concerned to read of your fears of condensation. Do you have double glazing?

Apropos Chris's damp problems, it sounds as if the room with the records either doesen't have a damp proof course, or if if does, the course has been breeched. If it is a cavity wall, this can happen if rubble falls between the two walls.

Regards

Jonboy
09-01-2010, 23:05
Just to add to the others, a lot of damp issues are caused by something outside ie leaking gutters or soil and patios being built up beyond the damp course if you have one that is, it sounds like you have got to strip off the plaster and treat the offending wall with a form of "tanking" which is a damp sealer, then re plaster

Primalsea
10-01-2010, 08:41
On a serious note, the damp may be caused by a problem with the house as mentioned before such as a leak or a cavity wall filled with something thats allowing moisture to reach the inner wall. A problem with double glazing or doors and windows that are perfectly draft proof is that you dont get enough air moving in and out of your house.
We always leave the night vent open on our bedroom window all year round to let air move around a bit.

Its a bit like driving in your car on damp days, if you set the car heater to take air from outside the blowers clear the windows of condensation, if you set the heater to recirculate air from inside the cabin the windows start to fog again.

I know its cold but if possible put your window on night vent or drill some holes in the top of your window frame and put a vent cover on. You can buy the covers from most builders merchants or your local double glazing place. If you look in most double glazed kitchen windows they should have a vent at the top of the window frame. Its this I'm referring to.

The Grand Wazoo
10-01-2010, 11:23
Hi guys, thanks for the suggestions. The place is rented, so doing too much work myself is a bit of a no-no. The landlord is aware of the problem, but when something will be done about it, I don't know.

Paul, there are two air-bricks in the room and it's a tiny room - that ought to be enough!
The construction of the wall is very thick stone (I presume two skins with rubble in between - cavity wall circa 1800 AD!)
I think it's the integrity of the wall that's the problem - it's coming in (or at least showing itself) at about waist height.

Primalsea
10-01-2010, 16:22
You are most likely correct but have you checked the airbricks to make sure they're not blocked?

Beechwoods
10-01-2010, 17:44
Nice pics, Chris, and really sorry to hear about the damp problem. I hope that your reorganisation at least minimises the problem. You've certainly got the right conditions to test your place's resilience against extreme weather. Hopefully in the medium term it won't be so bad.

On a lighter note, I see you've got your LP's in alphabetical order. Nice to see such attention to detail! I started that but got as far as E or F before I got frustrated with genre conflicts!

I like the panoramic picture. I'll do likewise I think when I redo my Gallery thread sometime in the next month or two.

The Grand Wazoo
10-01-2010, 18:08
Nick - Aha!! As you know, I live in a genre free world, so I don't have such worries!! My music has always been stored alphabetically - it's a bugger to do at first but pays dividends once you've done it.

Paul - Yes, I checked the bricks when we moved in, & again the other day when I spotted the problem.

tangye
10-01-2010, 18:26
hi Chris,

sorry to hear about your damp problem, you don't have cavity walls you will have solid wall construction 100%. Air bricks wont solve the problem either, they were put in before the advent of double glazing and the sealed bubbles we now live in, the moisture in the house will attach itself to any wall thermally coupled to the outside.
It's not all bad news - the cheapest solution, as you're renting, is to strip the wallpaper, make sure the wall has dried out, this can take a while but a humidifier will help, size the alls well and apply 2 layers of polystyrene roll. The polystyrene is about 2mm thick and available from b&q etc, make sure you apply one layer and wait a couple of days before applying a second and apply it at 90 degrees to the first layer, this stuff has a tendancy to lift at the edges a top tip is to cut it slightly oversize then roll each piece against it's natural curl before hanging and use a stong adhesive. Paper over the top and hey presto, just remember to place nothing directly against the wall, try to leave an air gap 50mm or so and ventilate the property well especially when cooking,

Tangye

Spectral Morn
10-01-2010, 18:48
Ideally the speakers ought to be cold (my Quads love the cold weather and like to be ~15 deg C!), whereas the turntable and cartridge ought to be at ~22 deg C.

I'm a bit concerned to read of your fears of condensation. Do you have double glazing?

Apropos Chris's damp problems, it sounds as if the room with the records either doesen't have a damp proof course, or if if does, the course has been breeched. If it is a cavity wall, this can happen if rubble falls between the two walls.

Regards

Hi Barry

No...no double glazing. Old Edwardian house high ceilings and its very cold at times.

My fear is that if I switch a valve amp on that gets hot quickly the cold metal inside will create condensation and cause a problem.


Regards D S D L

Barry
10-01-2010, 22:51
Hi Barry

No...no double glazing. Old Edwardian house high ceilings and its very cold at times.

My fear is that if I switch a valve amp on that gets hot quickly the cold metal inside will create condensation and cause a problem.


Regards D S D L

Hi Neil,

I can understand your concern about condensation, however when as an impeccunious student I used valve amplification (home built) in cold low-rent accomodation, I never experienced problems. Come to think of it, I did not even consider it at the time.

I can't see any problems occuring. Why not run it past AnthonyTD, PureSound or Ali Tait?

Regards

The Grand Wazoo
11-01-2010, 00:07
Surely you'd need hydrogen & oxygen inside your vacuum tube to create condensation?

Spectral Morn
11-01-2010, 00:23
Surely you'd need hydrogen & oxygen inside your vacuum tube to create condensation?

No not in the valves...but the metal work within the amp.


Regards D S D L

The Grand Wazoo
11-01-2010, 00:27
Aah, ok, yes I see what you mean

Barry
11-01-2010, 00:27
No not in the valves...but the metal work within the amp.


Regards D S D L

Chris,

I think Neil is (erroneously) concerned about the mixture of water (the condensation) with the HT of a few hundred volts causing damage.

Regards

Barry
11-01-2010, 09:50
Morning Neil,

I realise that I might have been undiplomatically dismissive in my last post.

I really don't think you have a thing to worry about. Have you actually seen condensation on anything inside your house? I don't think the internal temperature could drop low enough overnight for it to fall below the dew point. Even if it did, the film of moisture created would be so thin (and hence have high resistance) it would not cause any damage.

Has it stopped you switching on the TV (there's up to 25kV there) or even switching on the toaster? No, I thought not.

Enjoy the day and stop worrying.

Regards

Lushlight
10-10-2010, 18:14
Hi guys- new to the forum- simply googled Steen Doessing OBS and here you all are. I am looking for guidance on bi-wiring from my Audio Innovation 500- trouble is I havnt a clue what's what on the AI. Got to say the of your SDs are very much tidier than mine- Steen dampened mine personally- full of blu-tack! I'll get it together to upload some images
using Uninson Research 'Unico' hybrid CD - Linn Sondek - Audio Innovations 500 - and Steen Doessings 'coffins' (stopped upgrading as I'm very happy)

Marco
10-10-2010, 18:34
Hi 'Lushlight',

Welcome to AOS :)

Could you please pop into the Welcome area and introduce yourself to our community by supplying your first name, basic geographic location, system details and music tastes, as this is the requirement for all new members joining AOS.

Cheers! :cool:

Marco.

The Grand Wazoo
15-10-2010, 11:12
Part 6
Battle of the Speakers

I've realised that this story is unfinished. I thought I'd posted this installment but apparently not. It was nestling on the PC with a date of 26th October 2009 - so the following is almost exactly one year old!

With firing across the room ruled out for the speakers, it was time to find out which pair best suited the new environment. My feeling was that, despite the very big difference in original cost (£800 vs. well over £3k), the cheaper SD speakers might be best suited in this application, so it was time to find out for sure.

Just to remind you of the contenders:

Mirage M3Si (Merlot's favourite speakers!)

http://img443.imageshack.us/img443/8899/imgp1766x.jpg



..........and SD Acoustics OBS

http://img32.imageshack.us/img32/5710/imgp0207.jpg


The Mirages throw a huge soundstage & never endingly deep bass - in the right room but need lots of juice.
The SD's are almost holographic on image specificity - not far off Quads or LS35a's, they're just a little coloured, but work well even in quite small rooms and need very little juice - they make an 18-22 watt Radford sound like a massive beast.

The room remember, is 18'x12'(opening out to 16' at the listening position end)

A little background:
Both models are getting on for 15-20 years old.

The Mirages are Bipoles, the SD's are Dipoles.

1x10" woofer on the Mirage, 1x8" woofer on the SD's

Both ported - Mirage twin front mounted, SD single rear mounted.

2x5" polyprop mid range cones on the Mirage (1 front/1 back), 1x5 1/2" (I think) on the SD's.

2x1" titanium dome/cloth suspension on the Mirage (1 front/1 back), 1xSEAS metal dome on the SD's

83 dB sensitivity on the Mirage (though bipolars have higher sensitivity than other types, because the standard measuring technique isn't appropriate - so real sensitivity is apparently equivalent to 87dB), 88dB on the SD's - but a very benign 88dB

Mirages will be bi-amped - bass/mid-treble, SD's also for this test, though they have 3 way split x-overs.

Dimensions - 134 x 46 x 24 cm on the Mirage (raised a tad by Soundcare Superspikes),
100 x 34 x 20 cm (18cm wide flying baffle) on the SD's

Modifications: None other than the Soundcare spikes to the Mirages.
16mm of steel plate bolted to the bases of the SD's. Deflex panels inside the bass box.

Price when new:
Over £3000 for the Mirages
£800 for the SD's

After a few weeks getting used to the sound of the Mirage units, it was time for a change. The SD OBS's are tri-ampable (is that a real word?), but bi-amping was the option I chose. ML-9 to the bass & ML-11 to the mid & then via jumper cables to the treble. The jumper cables were solid-core copper, the same as the internal wiring.

The Mirages had been 1 metre out from the rear walls with the outside edges of the baffles 0.4 m from the side walls and no toe-in. On the carpet, I marked the outline of the bases with masking tape, so I would be able to find that position again without too much trouble. I started with the SD's in pretty much the same spots, sat down and had a listen. It sounded pretty good and got better as time went on. After a while, and some experimentation with positioning, I settled on an arrangement that seemed to give the balance I felt was best. This was still essentially within the footprint of the Mirages, but closer together (& therefore slightly further from the side walls) and a touch nearer the back wall with a good bit of toe-in. I've found before with these speakers that the key to releasing their fantastic potential for holographic imaging is to have them toed-in so that their lines of axis cross just in front of your nose, which is a good bit more than necessary for most speakers. And so this was to be the case again. Also good is a very slight backward tilt.
Once I found the right angles, they just disappeared completely and the image placement was staggeringly good. A plus there then!

I stuck with this arrangement for two weeks & was pretty happy that I'd be able to live with it – it certainly made a change to share a room with smaller speakers than the Mirages - even though the SD's are a metre tall, they seem tiny after those big black lumps. They were certainly much easier to drive to obscene levels!

For me, the big test with any change is always to go back to what you had before. Out went the SD's & in came the Mirages again. I fired 'em up and it became immediately apparent again just why I like them so much. The scale of the soundstage is just huge! Bass guitars growl like they're supposed to and deep bass is really, really deep.

Some things were a little better with the SD's – that imaging for a start, and some things were just different – like a slightly more brightly lit presentation, but on balance, the Mirages won the day – it was close though, bloody close. Much more so than you would expect given the different price slots they'd occupied in their day.

The Mirages could certainly do with more space between them and probably between them and the side walls. They sounded different in the old house, but then it was a much bigger room, I was sitting four feet further back, and five feet in front of the rear wall, the floor coverings were different ……

So what about the SD's?
They're staying, but not in that room, though they may return! They've gone upstairs to the bedroom, and are currently being aspirated by an old Pioneer receiver (cost 99p).

http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/4217/imgp1614.jpg

A little bit of an over the top mismatch maybe, but there you go – it doesn't sound half bad at all!

The Grand Wazoo
15-10-2010, 14:08
Bringing it up to date - Oct 2010.

So a good bit of time has elapsed now since the move to the new house. There have only been some very minor changes to things since then. Slowly evolving hi-fi in this house!

There's been a new addition. Thanks to Barry's extraordinary generousity, I've now got an Uher reel to reel deck, which I've been playing around with quite a lot recently. Thanks a lot once again Barry!

http://img685.imageshack.us/img685/3984/dscf1444y.jpg

I used to use my Dad's Sony reel to reel when I was just getting interested in hi-fi & it's nice to be reminded of those days. As everyone always says, it's amazing how good a recording you can get from such a so-called obsolete medium. We've been recording some real performances with real instruments in the same room as the speakers are.......interesting to listen to something recorded in the same acoustic environment as it was recorded in!



The next move has been out of necessity as my preamp has developed a phono stage fault. It became rather noisy and slightly imbalanced in one channel. Thinking it would probably be the valves, I got a pair, but no dice! It's not on the cards to have any expensive repair work done on this machine at the moment, so I put some old valves back in the phono stage & sought out my LFD unit. This means my Bent Audio Mu step up transformers are sitting unused on a shelf now. The LFD MC1 is an excellent unit that I used for years & now I'm firing it into a line level input on the SP8 with no problems.

http://img171.imageshack.us/img171/8664/dscf1448b.jpg

So here's what the gear looks like in that tiny little room now:

http://img256.imageshack.us/img256/1191/dscf1422c.jpg




From right to left, we've got:
Uher 4400 Report Stereo IC tape deck
Accuphase T101 tuner (fed from a 4 element roof mounted aerial shared with a Yamaha CR1020 receiver in another system - despite which, the signal strength is phenomenal on both units)
Audio Research SP8 preamplifier
Michell Gyro QC Turntable PSU
LFD MC1 phono stage PSU
Isol-8 Cleanline 2 mains conditioner unit

http://img207.imageshack.us/img207/6752/dscf1439s.jpg



Michell Gyrodec turntable
Zeta tonearm
Koetsu Black phono cartridge
Accuphase DP67 compact disc player
LFD MC1 phono stage

http://img412.imageshack.us/img412/656/dscf1440k.jpg



Moth RCM record cleaning machine
Leak Troughline MkII tuner

http://img686.imageshack.us/img686/5218/dscf1441e.jpg

The record cleaning machine is where it should be - right beside the TT, so there's no excuse for not playing pristine records.



Apart from that, we've got some records & CD's ............and some mess!
That's a pair of Grado 325's & HFN/RR Headcase headphone amp on the shelf & the Bent Audio Mu step up transformers are the cylinders above them.

http://img259.imageshack.us/img259/1452/dscf1452g.jpg



Through the door into the main room

Mark Levinson ML9 on the top shelf driving the bass
Mark Levinson ML11 on the lower shelf driving the mid range & treble

http://img442.imageshack.us/img442/5683/mootsnoots.jpg


And then the speakers - the old Mirage M3si's

http://img151.imageshack.us/img151/3507/dscf1437t.jpg




Interconnect cables are my own, which I made from a silver plated copper, teflon coated twisted pair in a very tightly woven flat silver plated copper shield and foil then more of that Teflon over the whole lot.
Speaker cables are from Campaign Audio Design.




One final thing & maybe it should be the subject of it's own thread - 'What's on your listening room walls'

Some Cuban film posters behind the speakers

http://img834.imageshack.us/img834/3776/dscf1454a.jpghttp://img209.imageshack.us/img209/5305/dscf1453n.jpg


Some photos of grain elevators we took during a trip to Montana/Idaho/Alberta

http://img687.imageshack.us/img687/7301/dscf1455k.jpg


And some old hi-fi advertisments

http://img834.imageshack.us/img834/496/dscf1456v.jpghttp://img146.imageshack.us/img146/7937/dscf1457.jpg

DSJR
15-10-2010, 17:20
When you have some spare dosh, why not upgrade your preamp to a Mark Levinson ML28? I think you'll be very glad you did if you can find a well cared for example. It was one of the very few expensive preamps that could possibly be regarded as an upgrade on a Croft at the time ;)

The Grand Wazoo
15-10-2010, 19:44
Dave,
I've been quietly slavering over here for almost a couple of decades at the idea of getting my hands on one of the older ML pre's - an ML6a or b would be nice if I could find one for a tenner!
I'm also rather jealous of Barry's acquisition of a 28.

Alex_UK
15-10-2010, 21:39
Great write up Chris. Thanks for the update. Makes me realise how far I have to go with my system!

Barry
16-10-2010, 14:37
Great post Chris - It's all looking (and I trust sounding) really good.

Glad to hear you are making use of the Uher. Regarding the SP-8, do you still want me to be on the lookout for replacement valves, or is it as you fear, something more serious?

Framed hi-fi advertisments? You really are a fan of '50s American designs. I would love to hear one of those Weather's FM pick-ups. Mono only, they were not especially reliable, (I think like the much later LP12 turntable) the set-up had to be adjusted every six months or so, something to do with the RF oscillator used; the Weather's pick-up was a variable capacitance design. However the sound was supposed to be sublime and it has become a legend in hi-fi history.

Two final questions:

Is Merlot the name of your dog?

What is the diference between a di-pole speaker and a bi-pole speaker?

Regards

Reid Malenfant
16-10-2010, 14:46
What is the diference between a di-pole speaker and a bi-pole speaker?
Hi Barry, a dipole is essentially the same as a Quad Electrostatic in that it has one radiating element (or possible more) that radiates to both front & back but out of phase. It could be done with more drivers on an open baffle ;)

A bipole is usually a sealed box (though it could be ported) that has drivers on both the front & rear panels that radiate in phase (they both move in & out together) but obvously in opposing directions.

Normal everyday speakers are known as monopoles.

Hope that helps :)

Barry
16-10-2010, 17:06
Ah - so a bipole is two monopoles?

Thanks Mark

Regards

Reid Malenfant
16-10-2010, 17:27
Ah - so a bipole is two monopoles?

Thanks Mark

Regards
Yes, if you like to think of it in that way ;) They are back to back but wired in phase so both bass drivers move outwards at the same time (if fitted). Lots might just have the mid & treble sections as the bipole & a common bass section.

The Grand Wazoo
16-10-2010, 19:06
Hi Barry,


Regarding the SP-8, do you still want me to be on the lookout for replacement valves, or is it as you fear, something more serious?
I'll send you a PM about valves.



Two final questions:

Is Merlot the name of your dog?

What is the diference between a di-pole speaker and a bi-pole speaker?


Mark's obviously advised you on the bipole/dipole thing. The M3si's have bipole mid & treble with a single forward firing bass driver. The model above was even bigger & had an extra rear firing bass driver.

Yes, Merlot is the mutt's name - it's all to do with his French ancestry (he's a Brittany) and the fact that he likes to w(h)ine!

The Grand Wazoo
29-11-2010, 01:37
This weekend has seen a new arrival in 'the room with no length'.
Barry's donation of the Uher has bitten hard & I appear to have become a little more serious about tape than I expected. So, it was my birthday a couple of weeks ago and here comes my pressie!


http://img683.imageshack.us/img683/4247/dscf17370.jpg


It's an Akai GX-620 4 track with 3 heads & 3 motors. 2 speeds and a wired remote control. It's reputed to be very reliable and very good sounding.
The very good sounding bit is something I can vouch for - it's fantastic!

http://img818.imageshack.us/img818/1319/dscf1739.jpg

http://img262.imageshack.us/img262/8788/dscf1731k.jpg

http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/7909/dscf1733pu.jpg



Special thanks to the AoS folks who helped me out in this endeavour. They know who they are!

Marco
29-11-2010, 07:53
Lovely looking bit of kit there, Chris! Reel-to-reels are totally cool :respect:

I'd love to add one to my system at some point when I have more space.

Now you just need to fork out a few hundred quid each for some pre-recorded audiophile grade recordings! ;)

Marco.

Barry
29-11-2010, 09:56
Lord! What have I started?

Seriously though Chris, that's a nice piece of kit. There is definitely something professional-looking about reel-to-reel machines that can take 10.5" diameter spools. Now all you need now are those tall spun-aluminium NAB hubs for hand spooling.

You'll have both Nick (Beechwood) and Neil (Dalek Supreme DL) 'all of a quiver'. Do you intend doing field recordings with the Uher with editing and playback on the Akai?

Belated Birthday wishes by the way.

Regards

The Grand Wazoo
29-11-2010, 09:57
Lovely looking bit of kit there, Chris! Reel-to-reels are totally cool

I'd love to add one to my system at some point when I have more space.

Now you just need to fork out a few hundred quid each for some pre-recorded audiophile grade recordings!

Marco.
__________________


Ah yes, it is rather loverly isn't it? I take it that it's neither 'pee-soaked weenie-boy or WAF pleasing'
Hehehe!

At $500 per album, I think I'll pass thanks! Actually, those Tape Project albums are recorded at 15" per sec, so I couldn't play them on this anyway!

Cheers

The Grand Wazoo
07-12-2010, 00:14
Lord! What have I started?

Seriously though Chris, that's a nice piece of kit. There is definitely something professional-looking about reel-to-reel machines that can take 10.5" diameter spools. Now all you need now are those tall spun-aluminium NAB hubs for hand spooling.

You'll have both Nick (Beechwood) and Neil (Dalek Supreme DL) 'all of a quiver'. Do you intend doing field recordings with the Uher with editing and playback on the Akai?

Belated Birthday wishes by the way.

Regards

Barry, it looks like we posted at almost the same time & I missed your comments - only just discovered them. Sorry if it appeared rude.
Thanks for the b'day wishes.
Yes, that was the idea - to keep the Uher for use as a portable, but to have the Akai for everything else.

The Grand Wazoo
24-12-2010, 01:32
Well, I've been messing about with cheap cables for the last couple of weeks. I just wanted to have a little play about with something for a short while just to see the system from a different perspective.

So just when I'm thinking of doing this, a member of AoS mentions a very good but stupidly cheap interconnect from Belkin. The Truly Amazed (http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=8581) thread
I buy a couple of pairs. I install one pair between the CD player and preamp. It's time for me to reach for the dictionary of hi-fi cliches to describe what this cable is like. Let's just all agree that it's very, very good.

So the next evening, I install a pair between the phono stage & the preamp. The same thing happens.

So I buy a 5 metre pair to go between the preamp & the box which splits the signal into two to feed the two power amps.
Things are beginning to become cumulative - the more of these cable I add, the better things become.
I need two more pairs to go from this splitter box to the power amps - so I order some more.

Problem:
The power amps use Camac sockets on the inputs.
That's OK because I have several sets of Camacs & I can solder cables into them.

Problem:
Camacs are eensy weensy, teeny weeny little things while the Belkins are fairly fat.

Solution:
The one that everyone else uses (& that I've managed to avoid in 14 years of using Levinson amps) is to use Camac adapters. These take an RCA phono plug at the fat end & narrow down to a Camac at the thin end. Great, get some of those then!

New Problem!!!!:
They're ~£70 - £120 a pair if you can find them. I need two pairs.

I've got a long term plan, but I needed a short to medium term stop-gap, so I thought, bugger it, I'll make my own bleeding adaptors.

That's what I spent most of last night doing..............

In-line RCA phono sockets from Neutrik
Belden Pro Patch wire cut very, very short - as short as it is physically possible to connect the two together & still assemble them completely - trial & error pays off!
Lots of swearing and burnt fingertips due to working in small scale & no elbow room


http://img696.imageshack.us/img696/605/dscf3024e.jpg

It paid off - things are sounding even better now I've installed the last link in the line level cabling chain (the tonearm remains connected with the old cable).

If you want to know more about Camacs, then take a peek here: (http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=2740&highlight=levinson+mad)

Ali Tait
24-12-2010, 05:24
What's the cheap but good interconnect Chris? Good job on the adaptors BTW.

The Grand Wazoo
24-12-2010, 07:30
Ali, they're the white 2m Belkin Pure AV cables that Frank (Effem) brought to our attention in the Truly Amazed thread (http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=8581)

Ali Tait
24-12-2010, 07:51
Thanks Chris, it looked from the way it was worded you were talking about something else. They're good. I have two pairs myself.

The Grand Wazoo
24-12-2010, 08:06
Thanks Chris, it looked from the way it was worded you were talking about something else. They're good. I have two pairs myself.
I've edited it a bit now to make it more clear. I was on the wrong end of a bottle of red when I typed that!

The Grand Wazoo
24-12-2010, 08:13
I'm rather shocked to find that I've stolen the name of this thread from a pre-existing one:
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=2412

Apologies to Sean - if I'd known I wouldn't have used it.

Marco
24-12-2010, 08:17
Oooh - naughty boy! :eyebrows:

You could always make a subtle change to the title of your thread to reflect the fact that it ain't original ;)

Marco.

The Grand Wazoo
24-12-2010, 08:21
Well, there is a subtle difference:
This one - 'Getting It All Back Together Again'
Sean's - 'Getting It All Back Together Again...'

But that's just too subtle, isn't it!
I'll think of something else & make the change.

Marco
24-12-2010, 08:42
:)

Marco.

Spectral Morn
24-12-2010, 13:39
Interesting updates Chris.

I don't know how I missed all of this :doh: Oh well up to date now :)

Nice Akai R to R by the way :)


Regards D S D L

Ali Tait
24-12-2010, 15:59
Yes indeed,love to have one someday.

The Grand Wazoo
24-12-2010, 16:39
Getting interested in tape again has opened up a whole new world for me.

Beechwoods
26-12-2010, 10:03
The very good sounding bit is something I can vouch for - it's fantastic!

Special thanks to the AoS folks who helped me out in this endeavour. They know who they are!

Chris... boy have I been busy! I completely missed your post the first time round! The pictures of your Akai are fab! It looks amazing, and I am so glad it's giving you the performance we hoped for. I'd like to hear some more about the kind of stuff you're recording onto it - from vinyl, FM, or live performance? I seem to recall you and the family play instruments?

It's nice to have a newly converted reel to reel fanatic amongst AOS's hallowed ranks. Fan implies 1 machine... fanatic... well you can work out the rest :)

The Grand Wazoo
26-12-2010, 13:39
Hi Nick,
I've been working my way through a big box of 7" reels that I got in a charity shop a while back. It's mostly opera and choral stuff, not really to my taste, so I'm working up a big stack of tape I can record on. But there have been a few things that I'll be hanging on to. Most of it seems to have been recorded off air in the 70's, but there are one or two live performance recordings.
I've bought a few old factory pre-recorded tapes from Ebay too.

As for recording things myself, I've not done too much yet - just a few experiments at home with my daughter playing the cello, but I have a plan to tape a string quartet (not hers) in the near future.

I'm also making copies of some old live tapes I have on cassette.
It's interesting how you can make some early issue CD's listenable by squirting a bit of analogue into them! I've an old copy of 'London Calling' that's dreadful compared to the vinyl - I put it onto tape & suddenly it's bearable.

The Grand Wazoo
12-06-2011, 00:49
A little while ago, I was lucky enough to be able to buy a Goldring G99 turntable from a fellow member of AoS.
I've harboured guilty thoughts about owning one of these since I was (literally) in short trousers, as some family friends had these with SME arms when I was a kid. So you may be able to understand that the fulfilling of a dream that had foundations in my pre-teens is a bit of a landmark in my hi-fi career.

The turntable that Barry managed to find for me has a Decca ffss mark I ‘Super’ arm, which has been upgraded with a Type A magnetic bias compensator. the cartridge is a Decca (Mk. IV) H4E.

http://img37.imageshack.us/img37/5089/dscf3458l.jpg

http://img196.imageshack.us/img196/9492/dscf3464b.jpg



The cartridge is dedicated to the arm (or vice versa - I'm not quite certain on that one) and it plugs straight into the arm via it's integrated headshell/body. The beauty of this arrangement is that the arm is totally optimised for the cartridge, removing one or two variable factors that could stuff up the proceedings if incorrectly dialled in. If done correctly, this can surely only be a good thing?



Well, today I managed to carry out some major maintenance work on the turntable - I serviced the main bearing and the motor bearings & carried out one or two modifications.

When Barry tried out the turntable in his system, he timed the start up & run down speeds of the platter. Here's what he said:


Mechanically the deck is in excellent condition. It achieves correct speed (as adjudged by the stroboscope) within one revolution, and when switched off from running at 33rpm, takes 55 seconds to come to a complete standstill. These are good results, no doubt due to the 3.2Kg platter.

This morning, before I started, I took my own measurements and I assessed that the start up time (to 33rpm) was indeed within one revolution of the platter according to the built in strobe. I measured a slightly better run down time of 1 minute and 10 seconds from 33 rpm to a total stop.

So, then I carried out the main bearing service which took perhaps a couple of hours. Before I started, there was a little play in the bearing, so I was a bit concerned that my investigations might lead to the need for a replacement unit. However, my fears needn't have been so great, as once the service had been carried out, it became obvious that there was no play in the bearing as long as it was charged with a suitable quantity of lubricant.

Astonishingly, when I checked the run down time, I found that I'd bettered this by almost exactly 300%!! Once the work had been completed, it took 3 minutes and 32 seconds to come to a total standstill.

Now this has got to be a very, very good thing!

Next up was the cleaning and lubrication of the motor - no big problems here at all.

I plugged it all back in after reassembly and things seemed great. We spun the first Crosby Still & Nash album and it sounded just sublime. The thing that hit home the most about the results of my days work was that, apart from all the things that these turntable are supposed to do, it's possible to get something approaching the fantastic and frankly unmatchable soundstage that I get with my usual Gyro/Zeta/Koetsu Black combination.

So, we're getting there then. The next step is to finish the plinth that I've been planning and mount a second arm - an Ultracraft AC300 Mk II that I've just bought from another very kind member of AoS.

Please don't misunderstand me though, the Decca is fantastic & I plan to keep it, but I want this turntable to be highly flexible and able to cope with all sorts of different situations.

http://img684.imageshack.us/img684/4314/dscf3455o.jpg

Alex_UK
12-06-2011, 08:30
Nice one Chris, great pics too. (And choice of record for the visuals!) Are you making the plinth yourself?

The Grand Wazoo
12-06-2011, 08:33
Yes, but I think there may be two incarnations, though. Something fairly quick and easy, followed sometime later by a rather more rarefied beast!

Alex_UK
12-06-2011, 08:34
Oooh you little tease!

Beechwoods
12-06-2011, 08:35
Gorgeous, Chris. I love the G99. I must admit that I've been tempted to get one at various points, but they're just a tad over my turntable price-point. I always saw them as Goldring / Lenco's answer to the Garrard 301, and they definitely took a few design cues... and the separation of the turntable from the arm is a really nice function vs. the GL75; far more flexible.

Glad you've got it really fettled!

The Grand Wazoo
12-06-2011, 08:40
I hope Martin (T) doesn't mind me linking to his photo of the arm but here it is.

Ultracraft AC300 Mk. II

http://www.mtc.me.uk/images/Ultracraft%20AC300%20MkII.jpg

It needs a little attention, but I've already made it electrically functional by refitting a pair of phono plugs on one end and some new cartridge tags at the tonearm.
I've sourced some damping fluid for the bearing housing and in doing so, I've learnt about the world of the centistoke! (unit of viscousity). So just a new bias compensator thread I think & then we're away as soon as the plinth is ready.

Rare Bird
12-06-2011, 10:08
http://img37.imageshack.us/img37/5089/dscf3458l.jpg


Whats the swirley Chris, One of the Black Sabbath fuzzies maybe ?

Marco
12-06-2011, 10:13
Hi Chris,

Superb pics, mate. I also love Lencos! Could you describe though please roughly how the Decca cartridge sounds, in terms of tonality/musicality? I'd like to get a rough handle on its style of musical presentation - churz! :cool:

Marco.

The Grand Wazoo
12-06-2011, 20:15
Whats the swirley Chris, One of the Black Sabbath fuzzies maybe ?

Yup! - MOR: I think it was the extra disc with the bonus tracks.

The Grand Wazoo
12-06-2011, 20:18
Hi Chris,

Superb pics, mate. I also love Lencos! Could you describe though please roughly how the Decca cartridge sounds, in terms of tonality/musicality? I'd like to get a rough handle on its style of musical presentation - churz! :cool:

Marco.

OK, but actually, I'm not sure I can isolate the sound of the cartridge from the arm and TT just yet. Can I get back to you on that?

Barry
12-06-2011, 22:36
Great report Chris, and congratulations on the results of your service.

3 min 32 sec is a fantastic result; about three times longer than I achieve with my Thorens 124s. But they too could really do with a service.

Just think, you could almost 'play' John Cage's "4:33" without using any electricity! :doh:

I'm relieved to hear that you don't think I sold you 'a pup'.

Regards

Marco
12-06-2011, 23:05
OK, but actually, I'm not sure I can isolate the sound of the cartridge from the arm and TT just yet. Can I get back to you on that?

Sure, dude, whenever you get a chance. I'd be curious to know :)

Marco.

The Grand Wazoo
12-06-2011, 23:08
The service was actually really quite good fun to do and I learnt a lot. I bought one of 'Joel's Kits' which included pre-charged syringes with bearing oil, motor oil, cleaning fluid, Loctite, a plastic bearing end cap, a new ball bearing & thrust plate as well as a nylatron thrust plate for the motor. All for £17.

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/JOEL-S-KIT-BETTER-LENCO-75-78-/290575643768?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item43a7a87478#ht_508wt_1139

The other thing that I did was to wrap a load of PTFE tape around the arm that supports the idler wheel. That seems to successfully stop it from boinging like an amplified cello string!

It was by no means a pup Barry - it sounded great before I started, but the turntable is actually transformed for a very small sum of cash & a bit of time - an absolute bargain in my opinion!

The Grand Wazoo
19-06-2011, 12:59
I'm just taking a deep breath before the task of ripping the whole system to pieces today in order to extract the pre-amp. It's shortly going to be undergoing a little work (maybe a lot, who knows!) so I'll be without it for some time.

The Yamaha CR1020 receiver will be acting as pre-amp in the meantime. It's got a switch to separate the pre & power sections. This will be interesting as it also has two phono stages and this will allow me to directly compare the two turntables - something I've not been able to do as yet. The Goldring/Decca will go in direct and the Gyro/Zeta/Koetsu will go in via the Bent Audio Mu SUT's (wired up the right way round this time!)

Hopefully, when the SP8 comes back, its own phono stage will finally be back on form.

The Grand Wazoo
30-06-2011, 23:08
I spent a few hours this evening working on the Ultracraft arm - it needed some pretty intensive cleaning as there was old damping fluid on most of the inner & outer surfaces - it had even worked it's way into the external cable plug/socket. It's horrible stuff to shift, being so viscous.

I dismantled it as far as I could so I could get at all of the parts - jeez, there are some tiny screws on this thing!
I am full of respect and admiration for the quality of the arm as an object (I haven't used it yet, so I don't know how it will sound other than by reputation and from a brief exposure to one many years ago) - the engineering is just beautiful and meticulously well thought out.

......and now, it's very, very shiny!

The Grand Wazoo
30-06-2011, 23:51
On the subject of damping fluid, I realised a few weeks ago that I had to find some of a suitable viscosity & it proved to be quite a search and on the way I learnt a little bit about the world of the centistoke!

I learnt from the arm's manual, that the required fluid was 200,000 centistokes, which I think is the same viscosity as that supplied by SME. I also learnt that a small quantity of this stuff from SME costs about £30-odd.

Now, despite the fact that I spent many of the formative years of my life in Steyning (my parents still live there) and by avoiding doing a deal with SME, I'd no doubt be depriving some of my old school mates of the opportunity to feed and clothe their children for a few days, there's no escaping the fact that I can be a tight git sometimes, & if there's a way of doing something a bit cheaper, I'll try & find it!

So I did a little research and found a few things out.

The first really interesting thing I found was that the world of remote control model car racing uses silicon damping fluid in shock absorbers. So I took a look about to see what I could find and, right enough, there was plenty to be had at prices that make the hi-fi stuff look silly. Then I noticed that the fluids on offer didn't seem to be stiff enough for the job as specified by Ultracraft.

A little more digging revealed that the model racers also use the fluid in the cars' differentials and that's where you find the really stiff stuff! The arm's manual mentions an option for warm climates which is 600,000 centistokes - no problem if that's what you need!

Now, I reasoned that the room we have the sources & preamp in is pretty cool all year round by dint of the fact that it has stone walls over 2 feet thick on all 4 sides & 3 of these are external walls, so I plumped for stuff that was 100,000 centistokes, thinking that it was so bloody cheap that I could buy some more & still have several lifetimes supply for a fraction of the price of the hi-fi stuff. The arm takes 0.3cc

Here's what I got:
Ansmann Racing 281000040 silicon diff oil - 50ml

£3.99 plus postage

http://www.apexmodels.com/media/gbu0/prodlg/ardiffoil.jpg

The Grand Wazoo
17-07-2011, 18:19
I tried adding some fluid to the dash-pot and things got messy!
The arm's manual specified 0.3 cc & that's what I thought I applied, but a good blob of gunk found it's way to the outside of the reservoir and all over the inside of the bearing housing. I don't know if I put too much in somehow, or maybe a bad aim was involved.

Disaster - The bloody stuff manages to creep everywhere!

So.........I spent most of yesterday carefully dismantling the arm as far as I could (going way beyond the point I got to in my previous cleaning session).

http://img40.imageshack.us/img40/6043/dscf3586k.jpg

The pine thing is a mounting board I've previously made up for messing with arms - there are two different sized holes and access from one end to the underside.

So, now the thing is reassembled as far as it can be. A couple more things to address - firstly exactly how much should go in that bowl? - I don't want the experience of dismantling this arm like that again - that was pretty scary! The thing is that the bowl is not that big & when the damping paddle thingy (centre top of the board in the photo) is screwed in place & the bearing cup is screwed down, there's even less room.
I wonder what I'm doing wrong?

I also need to find some suitable thread for the bias weight to hang from - any ideas? Fishing line? Dental floss? Sewing thread? Surgical thread?

A few extra grammes for the counterbalance and an auxiliary weight for the lateral balancing mech.

Anyway, here's the reassembled arm:

http://img641.imageshack.us/img641/8822/dscf3589o.jpg

http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/8893/dscf3592x.jpg

http://img39.imageshack.us/img39/7558/dscf3593kt.jpg



We're getting there!

Sand Dancin Donkey Walker
19-07-2011, 13:19
Hi Chris

Managed to get a photo or 2 of the bits you enquired about.
The last photo is of 1 of the 2 arms to be mounted on the Jean Francois Le Tallec - Stasis. The second arm is a nice 12" PU7 from Audio Origami.


The weight info you need is as follows,

Small Stub Weight is 12g
Large Stub Weight is 18.2g
The middle doughnut shaped weight is 40.4g
Hope that helps Chris.

Realise my Photobucket links are not working, have sorted them out. Not sure why they changed but all is well now.

Just to add what I have posted to Chris in a PM

I should really have made things a touch clearer.

The Circular doughnut fits over the stub at 2nd left.
The main balance weight can then be fitted on the end of the complete assembly.

This really gives you plenty of scope for using different cartridges.
I built mine so the Counter Balance is closest to the uni-pivot.

I did play with added mass on the cartridge and using the larger balance weight. But prefer the simple less complicated build in the end.

The end stubs far right, and there are two of them, add weight to the end of the main balance weight.

The weight on the far left is attached to the edge of the Azimuth adjuster.
This weight is used when the S tonearm is used. The weight takes into account the off set twist when useing the S arm.




http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll246/HyCoignitor/Audio%20Art%20of%20Sound/Audiocraft1.jpg

http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll246/HyCoignitor/Audio%20Art%20of%20Sound/Audiocraft2.jpg

http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll246/HyCoignitor/Audio%20Art%20of%20Sound/Tonearm1.jpg

Regards,

Andy

The Grand Wazoo
19-07-2011, 20:13
Ah, thanks Andy. So which combination of weights did you use with your Koetsu Black - can you remember?

Sand Dancin Donkey Walker
19-07-2011, 20:28
Chris

To be honest I'm not sure.
But I think it may have been the setup as shown in the photo of the arm, with the larger of the end stub weights.
Though I remember the balance weight was near the end of the arm stub.

Andy's SSDW


Ah, thanks Andy. So which combination of weights did you use with your Koetsu Black - can you remember?

The Grand Wazoo
06-08-2011, 22:43
I'm putting off building the new plinth for this turntable because I can't get my tiny mind to grasp the geometry of the whole thing. I'm trying to work out how two arms will work with armboards that are separated from the body that supports the motor unit. The desire to allow for future adaptability is getting in the way a bit.

There's plenty of information on this type of thing on the Lenco Heaven forum, but not so much available for 88's or 99's.

The Grand Wazoo
31-10-2011, 22:59
This evening I picked up a vital source of raw material for the Goldring plinth.
When I acquired the turntable, I was told that good things come to those who wait & so it's proved to be once again. After waiting what seemed like an interminable time for the planets to align, I finally managed to snaffle a snapped slate pool table top from Ebay for 99p (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/0837472925?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649#ht_500wt_1361). Two lumps of rock in the car that, together, used to be a 7' x 4' slice of slate!
It's quite a bit thicker than the half inch that the advert spoke of, so I was a bit worried that I might not get it out of the car on my own. It went fine in the end.

I've got a plan for how the thing's going to be built - I've got to get myself sorted out with one or two tools first before I start. This is going to be fun!

Barry
02-11-2011, 00:35
Now that's a perfect example of lateral thinking. Why pay a hundred pounds for a slab of slate if you can find a broken pool table?

Might have to pay someone to cut out the appropriate shaped hole to receive the deck - unless you have the tools to do it youself.

Some of the optical benches we used at work consisted of massive slabs of granite. However if you crawled underneath them, you could see that they were originally intended to be tombstones. Unfortuately the engraver had made a mistake with the inscription, so they were scrapped.

The Grand Wazoo
02-11-2011, 00:44
I'm going to have a go & see if I can do the cutting myself, Barry - experimentation will be the thing & there's enough material there to allow for one or two balls-ups!

Nice trick with the benches!

The Grand Wazoo
13-11-2011, 21:18
Eeh, I've snapped me body!
I've spent every waking moment this weekend arranging for, and carrying out the first stages of the job by reducing this whacking great lump of stuff down to manageable chunks.
It's going to take a while, this plinth making, I reckon!

Ali Tait
13-11-2011, 21:55
Hope you're wearing a mask while cutting the slate Chris, the cutting dust can do nasty things to your lungs!

The Grand Wazoo
13-11-2011, 22:18
Hi Ali,
Yes, I'm rather careful these days - I used to do a lot of wood turning and I still suffer from not taking the appropriate precautions.
However, I didn't cover all the hazards & this morning I momentarily slipped up & did some angle grinding without gloves & as a result I've got a burn behind the knuckle of one of my fingers where a stream of red hot stone dust got past the guard & hit me.
Another lesson learnt.

Barry
14-11-2011, 00:02
Hi Ali,
Yes, I'm rather careful these days - I used to do a lot of wood turning and I still suffer from not taking the appropriate precautions.
However, I didn't cover all the hazards & this morning I momentarily slipped up & did some angle grinding without gloves & as a result I've got a burn behind the knuckle of one of my fingers where a stream of red hot stone dust got past the guard & hit me.
Another lesson learnt.

Chris - Wear protective goggles as well as gloves and a face mask!

The Grand Wazoo
14-11-2011, 23:41
Thanks for caring guys!
Actually, when I said that I snapped me body, I was referring to the aching muscles & joints from heaving the weight of the slate around all weekend. I still hurt now!

jandl100
15-11-2011, 10:31
The things we do for our bloody hifi systems! :mental: :lol:

Marco
15-11-2011, 10:46
Chris - Wear protective goggles as well as gloves and a face mask!

He always does - dressing up is part of the thrill!! ;)

Marco.

P.S Stay safe, Chris.

The Grand Wazoo
15-11-2011, 18:51
goggles as well as gloves and a face mask


He always does - dressing up is part of the thrill!! ;)


Abso - bluddy - lutely!

http://www.clicket.com/images_med/pe5470.jpg

The Grand Wazoo
03-09-2012, 23:26
The system has been in turmoil for a while, but now it's beginning to come back together.
First of all, my preamp was playing up and after an absence of over a year (long story), it's now back. Anthony (TD) gave it a bit of a tickle & now it's better than it has been for years - fantastic, in fact.

Next problem: the power supply for my Gyro packed up, blowing fuses in the mains plug. Off it went to Michell last week for them to look at. I phoned today to ask if it had arrived safely & was told it had been repaired already! The transformer & speed switch had to be replaced.

The Goldring G99 project has been taking an absolute age to come to fruition because I have to work outside and the weather has been just awful on the days when I've had the time to work on it. I predicted that it would be ready by the end of the Spring & we're right on the edge of Autumn - bugger!
Anyway, I'm able to use it in it's half finished plinth and it's sounding great - much improved over the simple box plinth that I got with it. I'm planning to have a lot of flexibility with this machine, so there will be space for two arms, but I've cut the plinth so that the Ultracraft arm will mount on one side and the other will accommodate either the Decca or my Zeta.
The plinth is currently 6 layers of 18mm birch ply and that will hopefully be sandwiched top & bottom with two 19mm layers of slate.

The whole system and music collection has had to come out of it's little room because of serious damp problems in there, so now, it's temporarily housed in and around the blocked up fireplace in the living room.

Like I said.........turmoil!


I'll be back soon with some photos of the current state of play

Reid Malenfant
04-09-2012, 18:58
Looking forward to the pics Chris :)

The sandwiched slate/birch ply plinth sounds like a decent plan :D

Good luck with the damp problem, it's time to just about turn on the de-humidifiers here already... No choice with solid brick walls & no air gap.

The Grand Wazoo
04-09-2012, 19:05
Cheers Mark - it really is sounding great at the moment and I'm relishing the thought of soon having a test bed for all sorts of arm/cartridge/phono stage/SUT combinations.

Reid Malenfant
04-09-2012, 19:14
Excellent! Pleased to hear it, or I suppose I would be if I could :D

I guess I'm also interested as I have a G99 sitting here doing nothing without a plinth & as I can recall the thing from my ealiest days as a nipper it'll bring back a few fond memories :)

The sandwich idea is appealing, not only could it be made to look superb, but I'm sure it could be made to sound the very same as well.


Best of luck on your journey to nirvana!

Wakefield Turntables
04-09-2012, 19:15
Chris,

I know how you feel. I've had my 1210 and 301 out of action for what now seems an eternity. Both are now being fixed, and when i get them back cant wait to start tweeking again, this time only with power leads, phonostages, sut's etc.

keep the faith.

~A