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i_should_coco
11-07-2009, 22:03
Marco has asked me to post a review of the bake off at Richard's so here's my thoughts:



A very interesting day!

Firstly, a big thanks to Richard for hosting and allowing us to take over his lounge. Also to Steve, for helping me lug my 8-box vinyl solution around! Also great to meet everyone face to face.

Richard's system is very different to the one I use at home, and so initially some time was spent getting accustomed to the sound of the various decks and playing some tracks on the various decks.

I have to say that I rather enjoyed the LP12! It was arguably hampered somewhat by sitting directly on the floor, but then again, perhaps not, as it certainly wasn't bad! It definitely has a rich character and it does tend to portray music the way *it* wants to, but always enjoyable nonetheless. It was really when the Eagle-Eye Cherry track got busy that it started to show limitations.

The Garrard was a rather unconventional implementation, going aganst the grain of accepted wisdom in many ways. Sitting in a Torlyte plinth and with a Rega arm playing host to a Denon DL-103, the Garrard was incredibly dynamic and resolved the dynamic contrasts in a much better fashion than the Linn, which seems to compress things. Having said that, whilst very enjoyable, the DL-103 is rather crude, however and this was most clear because it was followed by the Io Ltd.

I have to admit, I was a little disappointed with how the SP10/Io Ltd. sounded on the day. Initially plugging it in to Richard's MM phono stage resulted in a large amount of hiss. Richard believes that there is some fault with that one, so we tried it directly into his MC stage bypassing the transformer. This resulted in almost no sound, so we reverted back to my own valve-based stage. I later discovered that I hadn't switched the cartridge on (doh!). We tried again with Richard's MC stage using the step-up as a 1:10, rather than a 1:100 ratio. While this sounded ok, and pretty refined (partly because it tended to follow the DL-103 when playing tracks), I felt it was rather too polite sounding. I would agree with Richard that SP10s can be a bit colourless and I make up for that at home with colourful speakers.

The PL71/SPU combo had a lot in common with the SP10, but sounding less polite. I thnk that this is a great deck and an absolute steal at the prices they are going for. I've have always had a soft spot for SPUs - wonderfully musical things that they are. I also had another bite at the PL71 cherry at Steve's house on the way home. This is in a much more similar system to my own (Tannoys driven by valves), and it confirmed that it's an excellent deck.

So, no winners or losers, just lots of different sounds and especially for me, highlighting how important and elusive system synergy is.

Marco
12-07-2009, 11:12
Hi Pete,


Marco has asked me to post a review of the bake off at Richard's so here's my thoughts:


Cheers for that, matey!


Richard's system is very different to the one I use at home, and so initially some time was spent getting accustomed to the sound of the various decks...


Could you expand on this a little? I'm curious how someone like you who (like me) is attuned to valves & big old Tannoys would perceive the sonic signature/way of music-making of a system like Richard's :)


I have to say that I rather enjoyed the LP12! It was arguably hampered somewhat by sitting directly on the floor, but then again, perhaps not, as it certainly wasn't bad!


I'm not really surprised, TBH. The chap who owned the LP12 obviously knew what he was doing, with all the parts forming a synergistic match, sonically. I also enjoy listening to good LP12s - they are undoubtedly enjoyable to listen to - but at the same time I'd have to say that they're one of the most coloured sounding T/Ts I've heard. I'd qualify that though by adding 'coloured' in a nicely euphonic way.


The Garrard was a rather unconventional implementation, going aganst the grain of accepted wisdom in many ways. Sitting in a Torlyte plinth and with a Rega arm playing host to a Denon DL-103, the Garrard was incredibly dynamic and resolved the dynamic contrasts in a much better fashion than the Linn, which seems to compress things. Having said that, whilst very enjoyable, the DL-103 is rather crude, however and this was most clear because it was followed by the Io Ltd.


I can indeed imagine a stock DL-103 (I presume that's what it was?) sounding rather crude next to your Io Ltd, but it's interesting to note that you still found the 103 very enjoyable all the same. Even in stock form, it gets the basics of music reproduction right and has a 'fun factor' that in my experience often eludes many high-end MC cartridges, which major instead on 'accuracy' and absolute detail retrieval, but often sound very 'cool' and soulless with it.

I'm also rather shocked to read that a DL-103 sounded great in a Rega arm, albeit a heavily modified one. Did you happen to ask the chap exactly how the Rega was modified? That would be interesting. I also looked closely at the picture and couldn't see if any extra mass had been added to the headshell. It appeared not, but the picture wasn't great. Can you confirm?


I have to admit, I was a little disappointed with how the SP10/Io Ltd. sounded on the day. Initially plugging it in to Richard's MM phono stage resulted in a large amount of hiss. Richard believes that there is some fault with that one, so we tried it directly into his MC stage bypassing the transformer. This resulted in almost no sound, so we reverted back to my own valve-based stage. I later discovered that I hadn't switched the cartridge on (doh!). We tried again with Richard's MC stage using the step-up as a 1:10, rather than a 1:100 ratio. While this sounded ok, and pretty refined (partly because it tended to follow the DL-103 when playing tracks), I felt it was rather too polite sounding. I would agree with Richard that SP10s can be a bit colourless and I make up for that at home with colourful speakers.


A couple of points here... Again system synergy (as you've mentioned) comes to the fore, so I'm not surprised that a highly tuned device such as your IO Ltd didn't perform at its best in an 'alien' system. Could you expand on the sonic and musical differences you perceived with the Io between using it with your SUT and Richard's MC stage? I'd like to get a better handle on what happened there exactly.

With reference to the SP10, I know what you mean by "colourless", but I don't in any way see this as a negative - far from it. For me, SP10s and modified SL1200/1210s simply tell it as it is on the record, as the arm and cartridge interpret it. The motor units themselves are intrinsically accurate devices. 'Colour' comes from the music itself recorded on the record, not the signature imposed by the turntable - and that's exactly how it should be, unless you wish to tailor the sound in some way to suit your specific preferences (a la LP12, etc).

The other thing I'd like to pick up on is the fact that you consider your Tannoys as "colourful". I can't really comment on yours, as I've only heard them once at Scalford Hall (where I enjoyed them), but I've got to say that the Lockwoods, with 15" Monitor Reds, are undoubtedly the least coloured sounding speakers I've ever used or heard. Remind me of what drive units and cabinets you're using again?

The Lockwood Majors I have here are über-revealing but very musical with it, and to my ears appear to have very little character of their own. Maybe it's different because they are genuine monitor desings or because the cabinets we use are different, or perhaps the drive units or crossovers? I don't know, but I struggle to understand where you get this 'colour' from that you mention... :scratch:

Personally, I wouldn't entertain using speakers that are coloured, as you have asserted, because it goes against my system-building principles, so we must be hearing very different things with our respective 'big old Tannoys' :smoking:


The PL71/SPU combo had a lot in common with the SP10, but sounding less polite. I thnk that this is a great deck and an absolute steal at the prices they are going for. I've have always had a soft spot for SPUs - wonderfully musical things that they are. I also had another bite at the PL71 cherry at Steve's house on the way home. This is in a much more similar system to my own (Tannoys driven by valves), and it confirmed that it's an excellent deck.


I've got no doubt that it is. Quite simply, there are too many people whose ears I 'trust' reporting on how good it is. Obviously I'll have to hear one myself to come to a proper conclusion, but I've read enough from people who know what a good sound is to understand that the PL-71 is up there with what I would call 'real turntables', such as the SP10, modded Techy, Denons, Garrards, EMTs and Lencos.

I also love the SPU because it's so dammed addictive and musical sounding, and again possesses that all-important 'flavour' and 'tone', which I've mentioned elsewhere and consider as vital to realistic music reproduction. I will definitely add an SPU to my cartridge collection sooner rather than later.


So, no winners or losers, just lots of different sounds and especially for me, highlighting how important and elusive system synergy is.

I can't stress how important that latter bit is. It is, quite simply, what 95% of building a hi-fi system is all about!

Glad you had a good time, Pete, and thanks for the write-up. I look forward to reading your thoughts on the points that I've raised :cool:

Marco.

WikiBoy
12-07-2009, 11:55
I think you need to understand the difference between coloured and colourfull!

Marco
12-07-2009, 12:01
Explain it to me then, as you see it. "Colourful", by definition, implies a form of 'coloration' or 'character'.

I wouldn't describe the Tannoys I'm using currently as being "coloured" or "colourful" - they simply allow the music through as convincingly and as naturally as possible. Of course, every loudspeaker is coloured to some degree, but that's definitely not the first word that would pop into my head when describing my Lockwoods.

They're very much like the SP10, in that respect, in that they only sound "colourful" when the music or recording itself possesses that trait.

Marco.

WikiBoy
12-07-2009, 12:21
Sigh!

Coloured means it adds different colour.

Colourful means it excentuates the colour that is there.

Marco
12-07-2009, 12:22
I understand how you interpret it. It's still not a word I'd use in that context. Would you describe the SP10 as "colourful"? :)

Marco.

WikiBoy
12-07-2009, 12:30
I understand how you interpret it. It's still not a word I'd use in that context. Would you describe the SP10 as "colourful"? :)

Marco.

Io ltd - yes

SP10 - no

Marco
12-07-2009, 12:36
Ok, we'll leave it there ;)

I'm interested now in what Pete has to say :)

Marco.

i_should_coco
12-07-2009, 12:40
Hi Marco,

Richard's system is simply different to mine an follows a different philosophy, emphasising speed and presence whereas A valve/Tannoy system goes about things in a different fashion. I don't really want to get into the minutiae of differences because it all depends on you reference point. One man's 'coloured' is another man's 'depth of tone' and so on.

Regarding Tannoy colourations - yours may be different, as they're in different cabinets, but Tannoys aren't exactly renowned for being neutral. I'm under no illusions that they're uncoloured and I love them despite this (partly that is the flimsy GRF cabinet joining in) because they're colourful and in conjunction with valves bring a life to the music that I value. It's quite possibly distortion, but who cares when they sound this enjoyable. But they're not for everyone.

I've had people visit and upon initial listening, they wrinkle their nose and start pointing out that they're a bit coloured and this and then, then over a period of about 10 minutes they trail off, get accustomed to the colouration and enjoy the music.

On the DL-103 - Jim's Garrard was in a Torlyte (lightweight) plinth, which goes against the 'mass is right' principle which has been the conventional way of doing things with Garrards. From what I hear, the Rega arm is not normally a good match with the DL-103 due to the low mass and high rigidity, but this one had a tension bolt running up the middle which would certainly add mass. Perhaps this, coupled with the lightweight plinth allowed the energy fed into the arm by the low compliance cart to be effectively managed. Whatever the reason, it did show dynamic contracts extremely well, it's just that it was rather raucous with it. In the listening tests, it nearly always followed the LP12/Zyx, which tends to compress things and so the comparison tends to magnify this. As the SP10/Io nearly always followed it, it highlighted the crudeness. The Io should have been even better in terms of dynamics, but more on that later). Anyway, it definitely has it's attractions as it brings life to the music after the compression of the Linn.

On the Io/Step-ups - when we initially tried Richard's MM stage, it hissed badly, indicating some kind of problem, so we reverted back to using the MC stage and plugged it in directly which resulted in a very, very quiet sound. As it turned out, I'd forgotten to switch on the magnet. In the meantime, I set my phono stage up and we used that for the initial listening with the Kondo step-up. It was a little bright for my tastes, TBH, probably because I run a 47kOhm load which leaves the MC rising response intact. With the Tannoys, this balances the roll-off over 10kHz (I've measured it, and they definitely do). Really, the Io should see about 12k through the transformer.

In the interests of keeping things consistent, we switched to Richard's MC stage and used the SF-Z set to a 1:10 ratio, rather than 1:100 and this gave a very different sound. Rather too polite for my tastes and constrained dynamics (normally this is one of it's party pieces). I tried using the intermediate ratio, but that didn't work so well. Ultimately, I cam back to my phono stage at the end and I was personally a bit happier, except for the brightness).

On the SP10 - I've already in the past identified a slight 'greyness' in the midband with the SP10. In a similar way that I hear the differences between valves and transistors. It's a sin of omission - and not in the sense of lacking colouration, but lacking slightly in tonal colour and richness, a slight coolness if you will. As I have identified it myself, I feel it's a fair criticism. That's why I use such a colourful cartridge and speakers. In an ideal world, we'd have the perfect stereo. Even despite this, I doubt I'd change it for anything else, at least not anything I can afford.

As you know, I value tone and colour, so have built my system around that principle. Of course, transplanting bits into another system is going to have it's issues, but despite that, it was an interesting exercise and we learned a lot.

Steve Toy
12-07-2009, 12:53
I am no fruitbox fan but the dynamics would be seriously sat on if the deck was plonked on the floor. This deck responds [dynamically] to to being properly supported. The comparison was perhaps inconclusive for this reason.

Marco
12-07-2009, 13:02
Given the circumstances regarding stands (as explained on pfm) I don't think there was much option, Steve.

*Any* T/T, not just an LP12, would be significantly hobbled sat on the floor. It's testament to how 'well-sorted' this particular one was that it sounded as good as it did!

Pete,

Many thanks for your informative post. I'll get to it later after tucking into some Welsh roast lamb and mint sauce, washed down with a cheeky little Burgundy! :cheers:

Marco.

P.S Could you just quicky confirm one thing - which Tannoy drive units do you use, oh and also if you're using original crossovers in them or not?

Steve Toy
12-07-2009, 14:42
I agree there was no option but this means is that the circumstances were not allowing for a definitive comparison.

I'd really like to see the fruitbox put to bed ;) but I don't think it has as of yet.

Magna Audio
12-07-2009, 15:27
The LP-12 was on a massive concrete slab with carpet on it:) That's the perfect support quoted by someone on PF on the Epping thread.

To be honest none of the turntables had proper support (apart from the PL-71 that was sat on a normal hifi rack).

The LP-12 was on a solid base - many hundreds of kilos.
The Garrard was on the low 18mm ply transport box that Mr Coco made for his plinth. The SP-10 was on Mr Coco's Sp-10 deck transport box 18mm ply.

I must try my TT on the floor and see if it changes the sound much. At the moment it's on the top shelf of my metal tubed (albeit sand filled) rack - at about chest height.

WikiBoy
12-07-2009, 16:05
The PL-71 really doesn't care what it sits on, within reason.

RobHolt
12-07-2009, 17:24
Was something preventing the other decks from being placed on the rack?
The SP10 is clearly quite heavy.

Marco
12-07-2009, 21:21
Hi Pete,


Richard's system is simply different to mine an follows a different philosophy, emphasising speed and presence whereas A valve/Tannoy system goes about things in a different fashion. I don't really want to get into the minutiae of differences because it all depends on you reference point. One man's 'coloured' is another man's 'depth of tone' and so on.


Fair enough, dude. I was wondering mainly how you adjusted to the sonic limitations of the Cubes in terms of their physical size, with you being used to huge drivers in large cabinets shifting plenty of air. I've heard lots of musical sounding small speakers, but none I could live with due to their lack of scale. I just wondered how the Cubes coped in that respect, as for example the Audiosmile Kensai (a small speaker I very much admire) do a remarkable job of creating convincing bass despite their miniscule size.


Regarding Tannoy colourations - yours may be different, as they're in different cabinets, but Tannoys aren't exactly renowned for being neutral. I'm under no illusions that they're uncoloured and I love them despite this (partly that is the flimsy GRF cabinet joining in) because they're colourful and in conjunction with valves bring a life to the music that I value. It's quite possibly distortion, but who cares when they sound this enjoyable. But they're not for everyone.


I'm still a relative novice when it comes to big Tannoys, so I've far from heard everything there is to hear, but from listening to some examples of the breed, one thing has become clear, and this is that the Lockwoods do sound rather different from the norm. I think it's the fact that they've been designed and voiced as genuine studio monitors (the extremely inert nature of the construction of the cabinets and type of crossovers used influence things here greatly), and so exhibit less of the traditional colorations of current and vintage Tannoy dual-concentrics. The Monitor Red drive units also appear to be more neutral and less coloured sounding than the Gold versions I've heard, and also some of the more modern 'tulip waveguides'.

I can honestly say that I've never heard a pair of speakers before that get so much out of the way of the music, but that also put a huge smile on your face when you listen!

I don't mean to be critical of the original GRF cabinets you're using (you like how they work, so this is all that matters :smoking:), but one thing I learned when researching vintage Tannoy drive units was that the type and size of cabinet used massively influences their performance, and it was generally thought that the original cabinets coloured the sound more, due to being somewhat less inert than more modern versions, which put me off going down that route. This for me was a pity because I really love their retro look!

The Lockwoods, IMO, in comparison, are ugly buggers but it's very much a case of function over form. When you open the backs up and look inside the cabinets it's immediately obvious how much attention to detail has been paid to internal bracing and damping, and even how the shape of the cabinet itself (and port) has been designed to maximise the operation of the drive units. Talking to Roger from Lockwood about this, and the history of the speakers they supplied to the BBC and recording studios, using vintage Tannoy drive units, is a rather enlightening experience :)


I've had people visit and upon initial listening, they wrinkle their nose and start pointing out that they're a bit coloured and this and then, then over a period of about 10 minutes they trail off, get accustomed to the colouration and enjoy the music.


Nice one! However, that does sound a bit different to the results I get.


From what I hear, the Rega arm is not normally a good match with the DL-103 due to the low mass and high rigidity, but this one had a tension bolt running up the middle which would certainly add mass. Perhaps this, coupled with the lightweight plinth allowed the energy fed into the arm by the low compliance cart to be effectively managed.


Interesting. It's something I've never tried, so can't comment. The theory sounds good, though. Obviously you guys heard it work well, so that's all that matters.


Whatever the reason, it did show dynamic contracts extremely well, it's just that it was rather raucous with it.


The "raucous" bit is interesting, though. I guess it depends what you mean by that. If you mean "raucous" in comparison with your Io, which is an altogether more sophisticated performer, I can understand (perhaps I would have used "uncouth" instead?) No matter, but it shouldn't really sound raucous. I've heard the 103 sound like that on numerous occasions in the past and it's usually when there is insufficient mass on the arm (and headshell in particular) and/or the loading isn't right (cue Richard :eyebrows:)).

I've also heard it sound that way when VTA is out. Rega arms are crap for setting VTA accurately (unless Rega cartridges are used or those with similar physical dimensions) because they use spacers, which aren't entirely reliable, so if the arm was slightly 'tail up' this would have made the 103 sound brighter and more fierce than normal. I also wonder what the VTF was set at, as I've also heard the 103 sound as you describe when VTF is set too low (less than the optimal 2.7g).

Anyway, it's just a few ideas as to why it may have sounded that way. I bet that the 103 doesn't sound "raucous" when Richard uses it on his PL-71! ;)


In the listening tests, it nearly always followed the LP12/Zyx, which tends to compress things and so the comparison tends to magnify this. As the SP10/Io nearly always followed it, it highlighted the crudeness.


Yep, that would have definitely been a factor. Undoubtedly, even when everything is in its favour, the stock 103 (in its plastic body shell) does sound rather crude in comparison to much more sophisticated and refined cartridges. The various 'pimped' versions, not least the 103SA, go a long way to eradicating this crudeness.


On the Io/Step-ups - when we initially tried Richard's MM stage, it hissed badly, indicating some kind of problem, so we reverted back to using the MC stage and plugged it in directly which resulted in a very, very quiet sound. As it turned out, I'd forgotten to switch on the magnet. In the meantime, I set my phono stage up and we used that for the initial listening with the Kondo step-up. It was a little bright for my tastes, TBH, probably because I run a 47kOhm load which leaves the MC rising response intact. With the Tannoys, this balances the roll-off over 10kHz (I've measured it, and they definitely do). Really, the Io should see about 12k through the transformer.

In the interests of keeping things consistent, we switched to Richard's MC stage and used the SF-Z set to a 1:10 ratio, rather than 1:100 and this gave a very different sound. Rather too polite for my tastes and constrained dynamics (normally this is one of it's party pieces). I tried using the intermediate ratio, but that didn't work so well. Ultimately, I cam back to my phono stage at the end and I was personally a bit happier, except for the brightness).


Interesting. For me, it just sounds like a lack of compatibility and also synergy, which is not surprising given the specialist nature of the Io.


On the SP10 - I've already in the past identified a slight 'greyness' in the midband with the SP10. In a similar way that I hear the differences between valves and transistors. It's a sin of omission - and not in the sense of lacking colouration, but lacking slightly in tonal colour and richness, a slight coolness if you will. As I have identified it myself, I feel it's a fair criticism.


I find this interesting, as I've heard it myself with some SP10s and some 1210s, too. I suspect that it might be plinth/equipment support/feet related. One of the best SP10s I've heard, and that didn't display the characteristics you mention, was Dave Cawley's, which was housed in a solid wood plinth. My own heavily modified SL-1210 also doesn't display these characteristics, I suspect because of the Mana supports (yes they really do work!!) and the lengths I've gone to ensure that its main component parts synergise together optimally.

Much as I rate high-mass slate plinths (or Corian) for SP10s, I'm beginning to wonder if they are possibly responsible for adding a signature to the sound which causes this "greyness" and lack of tonal colour. It's just a theory, that's all, and perhaps it's also one of the reasons why the PL-71 sounds so good - the wood factor?

It's definitely made me think about plinths more carefully when I get my own fully refurbished SP10 from Dave. I will definitely do some careful research into the whole subject before I commit to the use of any specific material.


That's why I use such a colourful cartridge and speakers...
As you know, I value tone and colour, so have built my system around that principle.


That's fair enough, Pete. The bottom line is that you like the results and enjoy your music that way. As you know, I also value tone and colour, but I suspect in a different way to you, and so this means that I apply it differently when assembling my system. If you've read what I wrote about tone and 'flavour' in the HFW/classic cartridge thread, you should get a good handle on my approach as far as that's concerned.


Of course, transplanting bits into another system is going to have it's issues, but despite that, it was an interesting exercise and we learned a lot.

Indeed. Bake-offs like this are a fantastic idea and are something that we would like to promote more actively on AOS in future. The guys on Wigwam have been doing it for years :cool:

Marco.

P.S What drivers and crossovers are you using on your Tannoys? I've asked you this a couple of times now but you seemed to have missed it.

Marco
12-07-2009, 22:22
Hi Steve,


The LP-12 was on a massive concrete slab with carpet on it That's the perfect support quoted by someone on PF on the Epping thread.


Mmm... I've never tried that, so I can't say definitely what the results would be, but it goes against what I've learned about T/Ts over the years (specifically springy suspended decks like LP12s), where I've found that they generally perform best on some sort of rigidly coupled wall-shelf, or on a more lightweight, less 'massy' approach such as used on a QS Reference wall-shelf, or even better, on multi-phase Mana (wall shelf of not) ;)

Wall-shelves tend to work great with T/Ts because up there they're less susceptible to picking up vibration - the worst enemy of all turntables.

Surely just being plonked on the floor, carpeted concrete slab or not, would make it susceptible to picking up all sorts of floor-borne vibrations? All the slab was doing I'd imagine was adding rigidity and mass, the latter in my experience being something that the LP12 doesn't particularly like.

However, it seems to have performed ok, but one can't help wondering how much better it would've been on a proper equipment support...


The PL-71 really doesn't care what it sits on, within reason.


I'm curious, Richard. How many different types of supports have you tried with the PL-71 and were any of them wall-shelves? My Techy definitely responds well to being placed on a proper equipment rack (as has any other T/T I've used) :)

Marco.

Marco
12-07-2009, 22:56
The theory from pfm:


Evidently, the carpet keeps outside vibration entering the deck to a minimum as well as minimizing subassembly oscillations all disturbing the groove/stylus interface less thanks to the gripping ability of the carpet when the TT is placed correctly (push the LP-12 down into the carpet a bit making sure all four TT feet are as stable as they can be considering the slight compliance of thin carpet.)

You do have to watch out for the baseboard being pushed up against the tonearm lead if the carpet is much thicker than commerical grade or fouling the lead directly if no baseboard is used. As you know, sound quality will be severely compromised if this is allowed.

I think it's fair to say the direct-to-carpet method eliminates energy storage if you think about it compared to any stand that I'm aware of at least. I'd say it's worth experimenting with.


Interesting. I'll need to try this sometime, although it's hardly practical having kit on the floor. Energy storage, though, is precisely something that QS Reference acrylic stands deal with very effectively.

I also suspect that Mana supports would deal more effectively with eliminating vibration from entering a T/T than when it's is sat on the floor, no matter what is underneath it. The design priciples of Mana are very effective in that area, particularly where multi-levels are used. One to experiment with I think in future :cool:

Marco.

WikiBoy
12-07-2009, 23:50
Surely just being plonked on the floor, carpeted concrete slab or not, would make it susceptible to picking up all sorts of floor-borne vibrations? All the slab was doing I'd imagine was adding rigidity and mass, the latter in my experience being something that the LP12 doesn't particularly like.

However, it seems to have performed ok, but one can't help wondering how much better it would've been on a proper equipment support...

I'm curious, Richard. How many different types of supports have you tried with the PL-71 and were any of them wall-shelves? My Techy definitely responds well to being placed on a proper equipment rack (as has any other T/T I've used) :)

Marco.



My house is built on a three foot thick concrete slab about 30ft by 50ft - the turntable (as well as the house) sit on that.

I have been over 40 years doing this, what do you think I haven't tried. It is only suspended suspension turntables or rigid no suspension turntables that suffer from this to any great extent - the PL-71 is neither.

Spectral Morn
12-07-2009, 23:59
From reading all of the thread on PFM the issue about TT's on the floor derive from the fact that the info about TT owners having to bring their own tables was lost when the original thread proposing the bake off got deleted in part and closed down. Therefore no one had a table for their TT. Richard had assumed that those taking part had remembered this requirement. Frankly I am a bit surprised that no one did bring thee own tables, supports etc. I for one would not attend any bake off (especially one designed to test out LP12, and others as fully set up in order to answer some questions and heated discussions as to what was best etc)unless my items could be as close to how I use them at home I.E fully optimised.

Richard I found your set up very interesting. I am sure many on AOS would love to see photos of your very unique set up. Maybe you might like to put some photos in the gallery section of the forum. It has helped me see where you are coming from and get an idea of your listening room.


Regards D S D L

Marco
13-07-2009, 00:04
My house is built on a three foot thick concrete slab about 30ft by 50ft - the turntable (as well as the house) sit on that.


So? Why should this make it immune from vibration?


I have been over 40 years doing this, what do you think I haven't tried.


I don't know. You tell me.


It is only suspended suspension turntables or rigid no suspension turntables that suffer from this to any great extent - the PL-71 is neither.


Is that a statement of fact and you dictating like you accuse me of doing? Or is it just your opinion?

Read it again and see how it comes across. I could say equally to you, based on your statement above: "Once again the only experience that has any validation is yours!" Where have I heard that before, I wonder? ;)

What you describe is not what I hear, or many others for that matter.

Marco.

WikiBoy
13-07-2009, 00:19
1 - So? Why should this make it immune from vibration?

2 - Is that a statement of fact and you dictating like you accuse me of doing? Or is it just your opinion?

3 - Read it again and see how it comes across. I could say equally to you: "Once again the only experience that has any validation is yours!" Where have I heard that before, I wonder? ;)

4 - What you describe is not what I hear, or many others for that matter.

Marco.

1 - a simple fact of resonant frequency.

2 - it is a statement of fact, again resonant frequency.

3 - due to the peculiar way you reply, for me it makes it impossible to reply to you sensibly, as nothing is congent to the content. Without going backward and forward to the old post I haven't a clue what I am answering. And your post is so disjointed and a mish mash of questions and statements and sometime about a page long and full of demands.

4 - well that is your problem not mine!

Marco
13-07-2009, 00:32
1 - a simple fact of resonant frequency.


Oh I see that explains it *all*, does it?


2 - it is a statement of fact, again resonant frequency.


See above. So you've tried every available equipment support made to compare the effects?

Also, if you're so blinkered that you can't see that you're doing precisely what you're accusing me of (dictating and stating facts rather than opinions) then there's no help for you!


3 - due to the peculiar way you reply, for me it makes it impossible to reply to you sensibly, as nothing is congent to the content.


Haven't got the slightest clue what you're on about. What you mean is you can't argue back because I expose how blinkered you are ;)


Without going backward and forward to the old post I haven't a clue what I am answering. And your post is so disjointed and a mish mash of questions and statements and sometime about a page long and full of demands.


Yet more evasive delusional bullshit.


4 - well that is your problem not mine!

What others and I hear is just as valid as what you hear. The only "problem" is your inability to grasp this fact.

Now any more of your continually aggressive and confrontational posts and they will simply be deleted. I can delete them faster than you can type them!

Marco.

Steve Toy
13-07-2009, 01:57
At the last count there are fourteen members here who can edit/delete Richard's posts. All have a mandate to do so.

Anything informative and constructive that is non-confrontational will escape the chop.

Ian Walker
13-07-2009, 07:09
At the last count there are fourteen members here who can edit/delete Richard's posts. All have a mandate to do so.

Anything informative and constructive that is non-confrontational will escape the chop.

You could always put him in a corner and stand him on a FRUITBOX....naughty boy:)

Marco
13-07-2009, 07:17
Indeed, Steve. Richard needs to disengage combative mode and learn instead to engage people in a respectful, non-aggressive, non-belligerent way if he wishes his posts to remain intact and to stay here in the long term. This is a friendly community, so we insist on friendliness from our members being shown at all times.


You could always put him in a corner and stand him on a FRUITBOX....naughty boy


Ian, great idea!!

Or since he likes muppets we could change his avatar to this:

http://img229.imageshack.us/img229/4227/misspiggy.png (http://img229.imageshack.us/i/misspiggy.png/)

...because he's always moaning like a bloody big girl! :lol:

Marco.

WikiBoy
13-07-2009, 09:31
A twenty ton concrete slab doesn't carry vibration unless it is an earthquake. It resonant frequency is too low, well below the level of hearing and into the level of feeling. There would over 1000 times more interference that is airborne.

Plus it is an energy sink so nothing going the other way back through the turntable would have any effect at all. That amount of transmission would be on the same level as a mozzy trying to bite an Elephants bum.

Marco
13-07-2009, 09:43
All perfectly good theory I suppose, Richard - but I'm afraid it *proves* nothing. You hear what you hear, and I hear what I hear. That's about the only facts of the matter.

I live in a 122 year-old property; I've got not idea what's under the floor (it could be just as substantial as what you have), but in the past when I've used the system downstairs in my lounge on the concrete floor, I can still hear the very marked difference in performance between my gear on and off the Mana supports, and that includes the Techy!

If the PL-71 on your floor is somehow miraculously immune from the effects of vibration (or any other sonically detrimental influences), the only way I'll believe it is to hear it for myself :)

Also, on pfm, per-Sony-fied seems less than convinced that the carpeted concrete slab was an ideal platform for his LP12 to perform optimally, which tends to disprove the earlier theories put forward in that respect.

Marco.

WikiBoy
13-07-2009, 10:41
All perfectly good theory I suppose, Richard - but I'm afraid it *proves* nothing. You hear what you hear, and I hear what I hear. That's about the only facts of the matter.

I live in a 122 year-old property; I've got not idea what's under the floor (it could be just as substantial as what you have), but in the past when I've used the system downstairs in my lounge on the concrete floor, I can still hear the very marked difference in performance between my gear on and off the Mana supports, and that includes the Techy!

If the PL-71 on your floor is somehow miraculously immune from the effects of vibration (or any other sonically detrimental influences), the only way I'll believe it is to hear it for myself :)

Also, on pfm, per-Sony-fied seems less than convinced that the carpeted concrete slab was an ideal platform for his LP12 to perform optimally, which tends to disprove the earlier theories put forward in that respect.

Marco.

Its not a carpeted concrete slab, it is my house, as that is what it is built on.

WikiBoy
13-07-2009, 10:44
Ian, great idea!!

Or since he likes muppets we could change his avatar to this:

http://img229.imageshack.us/img229/4227/misspiggy.png (http://img229.imageshack.us/i/misspiggy.png/)

...because he's always moaning like a bloody big girl! :lol:

Marco.

See how this is allowed, and yet is bordering on being sueable - go carefull Marco.

Marco
13-07-2009, 11:05
You really do enjoy being unbelievably ridiculous, don't you? :lol:

It's called humour, Richard. Are you aware of the concept? I believe that you compared me recently to some baby, or whatever, on 'Family Guy', which I chuckled at.

Therefore in what way is that perfectly acceptable behaviour, yet not me poking fun at you?

If you dish it out then be prepared to take it back! That's life. Sue away, if you feel so inclined.

Marco.

Steve Toy
13-07-2009, 11:11
Richard, it is not suable so don't act the big girl's blouse. You would get absolutely nowhere with what is light-hearted banter. It is also a case of not dishing it out if you can't take it - Family Guy reference?

As forum owner I feel quite safe from your litigation threats. You need to lighten up.

Steve Toy
13-07-2009, 11:13
I've just seen Marco's post above.

Marco
13-07-2009, 11:16
Its not a carpeted concrete slab, it is my house, as that is what it is built on.

My apologies, I stand corrected. It seems that the carpeted concrete floor of your house was not considered by per-Sony-fied (and others) as an optimal platform for his LP12.

Marco.

Steve Toy
13-07-2009, 11:17
I think what Richard has been saying about us is quite libelous but I'm not the litigious type.

Marco
13-07-2009, 11:19
Me neither. My sense of humour prevents me from being that bored! ;)

Marco.

Marco
13-07-2009, 11:51
On the subject of 'supports' for an LP12, I've taken the liberty of copying this from pfm, from the official set-up manual:


The difference that can be obtained by placing the turntable on a light object is startling. It improves every aspect of the sound. There is no advantage, whatsoever, to placing a turntable on a massive object or isolation base. The misconception being that massive objects isolate a turntable from large amplitude vibrations due to their inertia. Although these objects move very small amounts in response to the energy that strikes them, they move at very, very low frequencies, well below the cut-off point of the suspension of any turntable. The result is that you directly couple the turntable to all manner of environmental noise, i.e. traffic outside and footfalls. Light objects do not resonate at these frequencies, and do not couple the turntable at these frequencies. Isolation bases with additional suspensions should be avoided. The additional suspension interacts with the suspension of the turntable, (when one moves, it induces a movement in the other suspension, which moves the first etc.) and the whole thing becomes unstable and begins to oscillate. For the same reason, flimsy, shaky surfaces should be avoided.


Indeed; this is precisely what I've experienced whenever I've used an LP12, and I've owned about five different versions of them since I got into 'proper' hi-fi first in 1982. They will not work properly plonked directly onto a concrete floor - no T/T will. The bit I've highlighted in bold is what happens to *any* turntable put on the floor, not just an LP12!

Richard is entitled to argue differently, based on his contrary experience, but this doesn't make it a fact any more than my opinion is on the matter :)

Marco.

WikiBoy
13-07-2009, 12:26
On the subject of 'supports' for an LP12, I've taken the liberty of copying this from pfm, from the official set-up manual:



Indeed; this is precisely what I've experienced whenever I've used an LP12, and I've owned about five different versions of them since I got into 'proper' hi-fi first in 1982. They will not work properly plonked directly onto a concrete floor - no T/T will.

Richard is entitled to argue differently, based on his contrary experience, but this doesn't make it a fact any more than my opinion is on the matter :)

Marco.

I have said no where that a concrete float was better than a stand, I have said no where that a Linn would not be better on a stand, I have said nowhere that a Mana system would not be better. I was simply countering your non sensical statements.

Anyway the owner of that LP12 uses a Townsend sysmic sink and that is designed to simulate a large mass earthing - like a 20 ton concrete float!

Marco
13-07-2009, 12:30
Usual bollocks and self seeking re-writing of the facts.


You should consider yourself honoured. I've learned this skill from the master himself - you! ;)


I have said no where that a concrete float was better than a stand, I have said no where that a Linn would not be better on a stand, I have said nowhere that a Mana system would not be better. I was simply countering your non sensical statements.


No, but it's what your previous statements on the subject have *implied*. Would you like me to provide some direct quotes as evidence?


Oh and by the way, are you saying on a public forum that you can just replace someones avatar (I am already having my posts changed) to a Pink pig without my permission is acceptable - that is what you threatened - is that acceptable behaviour? It is not humour it is the usual bullying.


I didn't replace it though, did I? Has your avatar been changed? No. That's the difference! It was a joke. As Steve says, lighten up.

Your posts are being edited legitimately in line with our moderation procedure. If you insist on writing blinkered bullshit, then expect it to be removed.

For "bullying", look in the mirror. You are the bully-meister!! Bullies notoriously hate getting a taste of their own medicine. The difference is that here I won't let you get away with your bully-boy behaviour, as sometimes happens elsewhere, and you don't like it one bit. Well, too bad!

Now, I'm getting really tired of your continual argumentative nonsense. Anymore of it and you're out for a week. Stick to the hi-fi side of the discussion without getting personal, or nothing. Your call.

Marco.

speakers-1989
17-07-2009, 00:02
To the guys that went to Richard Dunn's house. How did his NVA cube speakers sound?

Marco
17-07-2009, 00:43
This is something I would also like to know. I did ask earlier ;)

Pete? :)

Marco.

DSJR
18-07-2009, 11:50
I heard them at a show once - not the best place, but I remember them being clean as a whistle, lively and crisp - a bit like "sorted" early Royds - no baffle correction, so "fast" and bright.....

The main issue with many LP12's is the boingy and resonant plinth the chassis is fitted into. It's this that causes the unpredictable sound on non-kosher surfaces IMO. The post 1985 plinths with the huge corner-fillets helped a heck of a lot, along with the other developments over the decades. The Lp12 has always been a delicate balancing act - "cure" one problem and you shift it somewhere else. It wouldn't surprise me if the original Ariston RD11 version with ribbed sub-chassis and heavier platter may just work better with jelco style arms. I'll never have the chance to find out unfortunately..

Marco
18-07-2009, 12:30
I heard them at a show once - not the best place, but I remember them being clean as a whistle, lively and crisp - a bit like "sorted" early Royds - no baffle correction, so "fast" and bright.....


Jeez, Dave, if they sound anything like that then they would most certainly not be my thing. Almost everything seems to sound "fast and bright" or "crisp" these days.

I've got nothing against those traits, per se, but we seem to have lost the way somewhere. What happened to realistic tone and timbre as being a priority?

I listen to my vintage Tannoys with all types of music and they possess ALL of the above attributes to make music sound convincing and natural, not just a sonic signature which majors on an impressive 'hi-fi' type of sound.

I wonder where the current (seemingly) preferred forward and 'up-front' nature of the voicing of loudspeakers, and all other modern components in my experience, originated from?

I mean, at what point did designers or manufacturers think 'let's ditch the natural warmth and tonality that makes voices and instruments possess the requisite depth and 'body' to sound real, and concentrate on a forward, brightly-lit, treble-emphasised sound which makes voices and instruments sound thin, processed, and nothing like they do in reality'?

For me in many cases, that's what has happened.

Marco.

Magna Audio
19-07-2009, 18:56
Having heard them extensively, it's horses for courses of course, one mans meat etc
Big Tannoy's are certainly my horses for the course though.

Marco
19-07-2009, 19:33
So how would you describe their sound, Steve? I'm genuinely interested :)

Marco.

DSJR
19-07-2009, 21:26
Marco, ignoring NVA's old speakers for a minute, I think it fair to say that modern speakers have to live in real world small living rooms, up to the wall and maybe even in corners. the move towards WAF small drivers in narrow enclosures hasn't helped.

What has also been a thing with the uninitiated is the "loudness switch" balance, brought to its ultimate by Pro-Ac in many of their models. A boom and thud in the bass, coupled with a sting and fizz in the treble makes for an initially great first listen for many - why do you think Bose is so popular?

RD's speakers will be as crossover-less as possible and tonal abberations will be secondary to the hair-raising speed and lack of smear they should reproduce. remember that other simple designs like the Epos Es14's actually had a VERY carefully designed bass unit that was initially voiced for open-space mounting and then changed for the Linn/Naim market in which they were so successful. It's credit to Robin Marshall that he knew what to do to make the changes (as Tannoy have done over the decades with the DC concept - I bet you wouldn't care much for the screaming Dimension models I heard a few years ago - OUCH!!!!!!!

foxysounds
20-07-2009, 15:32
1 - a simple fact of resonant frequency.

2 - it is a statement of fact, again resonant frequency.

3 - due to the peculiar way you reply, for me it makes it impossible to reply to you sensibly, as nothing is congent to the content. Without going backward and forward to the old post I haven't a clue what I am answering. And your post is so disjointed and a mish mash of questions and statements and sometime about a page long and full of demands.

4 - well that is your problem not mine!
Richard - things in general do not just vibrate at one frequency. Sure, they will vibrate most at the resonant frequencies but they will vibrate at other frequencies too.

Also, just because a frequency is too low to be heard (such as the resonant frequency of a concrete floor) doesn't mean that vibrations at that frequency won't have a detrimental (or possibly positive!) effect on things which are beig vibrated as a result. When you rock a baby to sleep, the frequency of the rocking cannot be heard but it certainly has an effect on the baby.

Simon.