View Full Version : Vinyl v's CD
MikeMusic
09-05-2014, 08:02
I'm assuming, from my experience and others that vinyl is superior sound quality to CD - with the kit price roughly the same.
Question :
At what price break can this be seen ?
Cos I'm assuming £100 on a record deck and £100 on a CD player add the CD wins
I'm assuming from my experience and others that a Porsche 911 is superior to a Mitsubishi EVO 9
That's essentially the same statement and the reason why this debate will always go around in circles. Forget the price break, you will always find people who will prefer the £100 record player to the £100 CD player. Our personal perceptions of what 'sounds right' are always going to be different. One man's 'neutral' is another man's 'boring', one man's 'transparent' is another's 'clinical'. Which is why you get people trying to get their CD playback as close to 'analogue' as possible whilst others want their TT to sound more like a digital source.
And once you start using language like 'superior' you open a whole can of worms because the whole thing becomes immediately prejudicial. You could re-phrase the question 'I'm assuming from my own experience and others that vinyl is closer to the original recording than CD at what price break can this be seen' but you are still going to get some who will laugh that out of court, (me included ;)).
Even as a vinylista I have to say there are a few ways to have digital music to be just as satisfying as vinyl. That's not to say they sound the same, there are differences but I'm finding these differences are much reduced in my system. It used to be that a mid-priced record deck would wipe the floor with CD but nowadays that's not true at all.
walpurgis
09-05-2014, 09:12
Well we've been here before (numerous times), but although vinyl and CD sound different, I find them both enjoyable. My CD setup sounds very sweet and musical and the vinyl is bordering on the magical! :)
Beobloke
09-05-2014, 09:33
A good CD player will sound better than bad turntable and vice versa, regardless of the price tag on the box.
Sadly, that's about as specific as it gets!
I've only ever heard one cd player that I would say was genuinally 'bad'' and that was a super cheap Marantz. A very curious sounding thing that seemed to remix everything it played. Bad turntables I have heard quite a few, owned some as well. Then there are bad arms and cartridges to go with them, too. A good TT needs precision mechanical engineering and that is never cheap. Still I knew a bloke who reckoned his NAD 5120 was better than any cd player he had heard. For those who are unfamiliar with the 5120 it was also known as 'plastic's finest hour' :)
walpurgis
09-05-2014, 09:46
For those who are unfamiliar with the 5120 it was also known as 'plastic's finest hour' :)
Yes, but it actually sounded quite OK, especially with the original 'flat' arm. :)
Yes, but it actually sounded quite OK, especially with the original 'flat' arm. :)
Providing you weren't all that bothered about having bass that is true. I nearly bought one once but went for a kenwoodc direct drive instead. Same price but it could reproduce the whole frequency range. The 5120 was £130 when it came out that is over £200 in today's money. I also had a Sanyo DD that easily outperformed it.
Oh, PUH-LEESE... Not another pointless (and most likely soon to become circular) 'vinyl vs. CD' debate/argument! :doh: :rolleyes:
Mike, what on earth prompted you to start this, mate?
Marco.
He started it then ran off. I saw it all!
So, a more useful question might be: what's the lowest price point at which an acceptable vinyl set-up can be put together?
http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w63/greatgig/facepalm.jpg (http://s173.photobucket.com/user/greatgig/media/facepalm.jpg.html)
Captain Picard can't talk, he's only got multi room with crappy in wall speakers. I mean you've got a replicator it can make any kit you want and no-one on the Enterprise has even a half-decent system. Commander Data would prefer digital no doubt about that.
Cd vs vinyl is somthing every forum needs to debate at regular intervals, it's like a catharsis. See also Bose Bashing, Linn Vs Naim, DD vs belt drive, active vs passive and probably some others I cant think of right now. You never see FM vs FAB though, can't imagine why...
You never see FM vs FAB though, can't imagine why...
FAB has Lady Penelope. You wouldn't want to get into an argument with her.
So, a more useful question might be: what's the lowest price point at which an acceptable vinyl set-up can be put together?
Yes, let's do that one instead (and I'll move it into Analogue Art)!
Marco.
Beobloke
09-05-2014, 11:47
So, a more useful question might be: what's the lowest price point at which an acceptable vinyl set-up can be put together?
Having done it personally - £31. (Dual CS505-3, Yamaha AX-300, Wharfedale Diamonds)
The question of one format bettering the other is a circular argument with no winners due to all the variables involved so pretty pointless imho.
Can decent SQ come at a tight budget with either format? Absolutely!
I heard a £30 CDP (bought from fleabay) and slightly tweaked a few days ago. It put most high end players to shame and got the closest I've heard to a really good vinyl set up...in fact the discussion at the time wasn't on the format...those in the room were discussing the recording and the venue rather than what was used to play the recording. Totally immersed in the natural presentation offered. Once we stopped focussing on the hifi and were really enjoying what was coming out of the speakers, that said it all for us.
Perfectly possible to a certain extent with vinyl but ultimately limited by the cartridge on offer. You can get lucky and get a really good used one with a deck which sounds great but it's more hit and miss in some ways to achieving better from CD on a tight budge imho. Adam's post above proves that there are exceptions to the rule though (those Wharfedale Diamonds are fabulous little things too)
MikeMusic
09-05-2014, 12:17
Oh
Wasn't meant to be a CD bashing exercise
I have both and assume will continue to have both with streaming added sometime
If I want to *listen* then it will be vinyl and in my system vinyl delivers a better sound qualIty than CD.
By a head and a bit, not massively better, noticeably so and preferable
For me, and I thought rather a lot of others here vinyl was the top
From there I was interested in the point at which either CD was better or there was no real difference.
I assumed good repro and good sounding kit for both CD and vinyl.
Having done it personally - £31. (Dual CS505-3, Yamaha AX-300, Wharfedale Diamonds)
You have to remember we don't all live down south where people are regularly putting out unwanted Audio Note amps with the empty wine bottles ;)
Anyway your Dual is not going to sound that good without a cartridge...what's that cost?
I think we should limit it to just the source and brand new only: TT plus arm plus cart. Plus an RCM. So no change from a grand then :)
Ali Tait
09-05-2014, 14:12
The question of one format bettering the other is a circular argument with no winners due to all the variables involved so pretty pointless imho.
Can decent SQ come at a tight budget with either format? Absolutely!
I heard a £30 CDP (bought from fleabay) and slightly tweaked a few days ago. It put most high end players to shame and got the closest I've heard to a really good vinyl set up...in fact the discussion at the time wasn't on the format...those in the room were discussing the recording and the venue rather than what was used to play the recording. Totally immersed in the natural presentation offered. Once we stopped focussing on the hifi and were really enjoying what was coming out of the speakers, that said it all for us.
Perfectly possible to a certain extent with vinyl but ultimately limited by the cartridge on offer. You can get lucky and get a really good used one with a deck which sounds great but it's more hit and miss in some ways to achieving better from CD on a tight budge imho. Adam's post above proves that there are exceptions to the rule though (those Wharfedale Diamonds are fabulous little things too)
Yes, a mate used to have a pair of the active Diamonds. Great little things.
MikeMusic
09-05-2014, 14:33
'Course now I can see that Vinyl v's CD as a title was asking for trouble
No I'm not a Troll
I'm also not wanting to Troll saying "Vinyl is better than CD"
Perhaps I should have qualified the question extensively
In my system of comparable kit my vinyl replay is better than my CD. If you believe that vinyl is a better sound than CD, when comparing CD and vinyl kit of roughly the same performance, price and sound per pound value is there a point, lower down the price performance scale where a CD player is better ?
I've had an arms race at home with CD and vinyl over the past 18 months or so where one has leap frogged the other. Vinyl started out top, some shuffling, and now is top again
walpurgis
09-05-2014, 15:52
He started it then ran off. I saw it all!
Yeah, it's true, I was with Martin at the time and I'll back him up! :D
Haselsh1
09-05-2014, 15:53
Unfortunately for me, it has now got to the point where I will no longer tolerate those quirky little vinyl artifacts that cause so much amusement with the digital brigade. I have, after getting into CD in 1983, finally reached the point where enough is enough. I will not be selling my vinyl front end or phono stage but I will definitely not be buying any more vinyl records, new or old.
The Barbarian
09-05-2014, 16:08
I for one have found the whole CD/Vinyl journey extremely frustrating. I have some very good sounding CDee's but i have a personal hate for them because of the bordom factor that CDee's possess, i just feel lost using them, it's not just about music with me it's the hands on experience of playing music.. I'm lost & i don't feel worthy without a vinyl record.
As i like the sound of CDee i expect the same sound quality from records & do hanker after Vinyl taken from Digital as i feel a lot of my old Analogue pressings sounded rather compressed & dull compared to CDee, this is where my frustration comes in. It takes a lot of patience & aggravation to actually get a new record that is without pressing problems or packet damage, i sit there with my heart in my mouth with every purchase just praying that the record plays from start to finish without any problems, nine time out of ten i have to return for a replacement, very rare i get a perfect issue..But do eventually.
The only issue i have that could maybe resolved by careful Cable/Cartridge choice is getting rid of the Cymbal tiss that has always bugged me with CDee, it's there present on the new Vinyl, i guess it's the detail on the higher registers that is making itself known..
So the answer is i like the sound of CD but cannot use CDee.
The question of one format bettering the other is a circular argument with no winners due to all the variables involved so pretty pointless imho.
Can decent SQ come at a tight budget with either format? Absolutely!
I heard a £30 CDP (bought from fleabay) and slightly tweaked a few days ago. It put most high end players to shame and got the closest I've heard to a really good vinyl set up...in fact the discussion at the time wasn't on the format...those in the room were discussing the recording and the venue rather than what was used to play the recording. Totally immersed in the natural presentation offered. Once we stopped focussing on the hifi and were really enjoying what was coming out of the speakers, that said it all for us.
Perfectly possible to a certain extent with vinyl but ultimately limited by the cartridge on offer. You can get lucky and get a really good used one with a deck which sounds great but it's more hit and miss in some ways to achieving better from CD on a tight budge imho. Adam's post above proves that there are exceptions to the rule though (those Wharfedale Diamonds are fabulous little things too)
That's always a good sign in my experience.
Haselsh1
09-05-2014, 16:22
High frequency problems have reduced considerably since I exceeded 50 years of age. OK so there are now some tiny bits I can no longer hear such as the crackle on George Michael's 'Fastlove' but at least things like cymbals and natural sibilants have now very much smoothed out. So, in response to Andre, things could get better...!
I for one have found the whole CD/Vinyl journey extremely frustrating. I have some very good sounding CDee's but i have a personal hate for them because of the bordom factor that CDee's possess, i just feel lost using them, it's not just about music with me it's the hands on experience of playing music.. I'm lost & i don't feel worthy without a vinyl record.
Would a transport which was more hands on help? Something top loading, perhaps the 47 Labs one with the laser housing which rolls on top?
http://www.colab.be/upload_images/products/47labs/pitracerblack.jpg
The Barbarian
09-05-2014, 19:14
High frequency problems have reduced considerably since I exceeded 50 years of age. OK so there are now some tiny bits I can no longer hear such as the crackle on George Michael's 'Fastlove' but at least things like cymbals and natural sibilants have now very much smoothed out. So, in response to Andre, things could get better...!
I did swap out the amp the other day with has improved the sizzly thang.. That alone tells me a Cable/Cartridge juggle about could make things better as it's there on both Speakers & a variety of Headsets.
walpurgis
09-05-2014, 19:15
Yes, a mate used to have a pair of the active Diamonds. Great little things.
I guess I could use a pair as doorstops.
The Barbarian
09-05-2014, 19:16
Nat:
what ever design CDee spinner that emerges no matter how much farting about you have to do they will never ever interest me in the slightest.
Turntables have so many parts you can choose and swap out - carts, tonearms, motors, perhaps new plinths etc - not to mention all the setting up to get things working well.
A CD player is just there... not much you can do about it, what it does, how it works, at least not for the lay-person. So a boring sounding CD player at say £100 will remain a boring sounding CD player. Only way to change that is to go through a miriad of £100 cd players to find the one that actually is well designed and sounds great! But who's going to do that though?
You can get a boring record player with a poor cart and change it to make it sound better.
Then of course you can upgrade your phono stage in the same way - swap and swap and swap until you find a magical combination with your vinyl system AND your main line-stage pre-amp. That might in the end better your line-stage pre-amp synergy wise than your CD player/line stage combo..
So many variables! But vinyl is much easier, due to modularity of all components to get right in your home. Of course you have CD/Dac combos but often a good DAC can lessen the effect of an average transport.
Vinyl is a hobbiest's dream! That will instil it's own emotional response and it has been shown time and again that emotional response to your surroundings effect your enjoyment (and that's something to embrace rather than try to ignore - kind of reflected in, if not proven by, André's post above.). That makes the £100 vinyl setup IMHO more likely to be overal more enjoyable, even when pitted against a better sounding CD player.
Nat:
what ever design CDee spinner that emerges no matter how much farting about you have to do they will never ever interest me in the slightest.
You gave the reason for that as being
i just feel lost using them, it's not just about music with me it's the hands on experience of playing music..
When you put on record, you plonk it on the turntable and put the arm in place. When you play a CD, you plonk it on the turntable and put the puck/lid/whatever in place. pretty similar physical interaction.
Of course, if it's just a familiarity thing and a specific vinyl thing - love looking at the grooves, love the size of a 12", love watching the needle riding along the groove etc, then fair enough! You're doomed not to enjoy CD.
I'd argue though that you do have an interest in CD but you're in denial, because you've already said how you like the sound - that's an interest in itself isn't it?
The Barbarian
09-05-2014, 20:37
Im in NO DENIAL i can assure you that. Any thing else you think i suffer from?
Yes, but I wouldn't risk trying to put it into words without risking further anger from you or sounding insulting.
Sorry if talking about CDs has upset you Andre! That wasn't the intention :cool:
walpurgis
09-05-2014, 22:28
I know there's a tactile enjoyment (or for some, inconvenience) in using vinyl and I do like that. However, CDs are very easy and straightforward to use, which I also like. All that matters really is not the source format, but the sound quality. I've not used 'computer music' (apart from copying a few CDs), but I'm open to using any worthwhile source as long as it's not mega expensive 'cos I'm a skinflint! :)
I think the tactility is still there with CD - just different. Afterall, once it's playing you're sitting on the sofa away from the media completely.
You might be holding the cover or the CD pullout but that's not to do with the media, just a design decision on the part of the artist/label - one could easily have a 12" gatefold sleeve and booklet with a CD, if that's what people wanted to make. The majority of vinyl I have is just a plain or advertising inner with a couple of photos front and back on the sleeve - there's more in the average CD booklet and jewelcase than on the average record out there.
PaulStewart
10-05-2014, 01:15
OK let me put it this way I like vinyl for the sound, the tactile experience and ritual of putting it on. If the systems right all the sources should make good music. I can now play on my system vinyl, CD, SACD, Blu Ray audio, file based high res and streaming not to mention tape and FM radio :) At the end of the day notwithstanding my remarks about vinyl, what I love is quality music in my home. It's one of the special things that makes my world go round, so I want the best of each, not a pissing competition between sources. It's the music stupid :lol:
+1 with bells on
I can enjoy all formats and just get on with the pleasure of listening to music
The more formats, the better (except for mp3...oh and DAB....oh, and....mutter mutter).
PaulStewart
10-05-2014, 10:40
The more formats, the better (except for mp3...oh and DAB....oh, and....mutter mutter).
Quite right Paul I want music delivered in a quality way, sadly MP3s and the UK DAB spec leave out more of the initial data than they deliver.
The Barbarian
10-05-2014, 16:46
Yes, but I wouldn't risk trying to put it into words without risking further anger from you or sounding insulting.
Sorry if talking about CDs has upset you Andre! That wasn't the intention :cool:
S'ok im a big lad, however since i slept last night ive decided to get shut of all my LP Re-issues.. Going to continue collecting my old 100% Analogue LP's. After deep discussion with my imaginary friend it seems the best way.
Clive197
10-05-2014, 17:06
OK let me put it this way I like vinyl for the sound, the tactile experience and ritual of putting it on. If the systems right all the sources should make good music. I can now play on my system vinyl, CD, SACD, Blu Ray audio, file based high res and streaming not to mention tape and FM radio :) At the end of the day notwithstanding my remarks about vinyl, what I love is quality music in my home. It's one of the special things that makes my world go round, so I want the best of each, not a pissing competition between sources. It's the music stupid :lol:
Great! Common sense at last.
Clive
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2014/05/09/vinylfetish_hipsters_might_just_have_a_point/
The comments in the link are interesting, but the PaulStewart vibes above regarding the ritual as well as musical satisfaction sum it up for me :)
Still, we're far from the original question.. kind of a bang for buck question.
Perhaps the software itself should be taken into account; with so many people fighting for vinyl copies of this that and the other - including Celine Dion original pressings - and everyone selling off their CDs for flac ripped copies, CD is the cheapest by a long way.
I first got into vinyl because it was unpopular and my friend would show me what he'd found at boot sales etc, 20p a record type price for good stuff, not just Peri Como or Brass Band Greats. Parents coming back from a school fate with a box of unsold records to stop them being thrown away - david bowie, caravan etc etc. Mid-90s I guess. I regret not being MORE into it - I would have bought loads more had I realised both that new stuff on vinyl would now be impossible to buy due to rarity and cost, and had I thought that prices of even crap records would go up and generally not worth fighting for.
Now that sitution has long since flipped, I'm getting into CDs more and more and leave vinyl purchases to chance cheap finds.
With canny second-hand buying, the equipment is effectively on loan until you sell to get the exact same cash back. The only costs to owning secondhand gear is down to what else you might have used that money for or paying for breakages.
The software on the other hand you're not really going to sell so is a loss in cash terms - so the price of the software is more important than the cost of the hardware.
MikeMusic
11-05-2014, 10:34
To check I was where I thought I was
Quick play of Jerry Goodman -It's alive on CD and LP.
Yes I am there
For quality when listening at home I choose LP
Changing LPs over and the time spent doing it is part of paying that price for that quality. I'd rather not have to do all of that faffing.
I can do without seeing any of the kit
I'd rather the music just started when I thought of the album or shouted it out.
Even streaming isn't there yet but will be sooner or later
The original question may be answered one day or not
losenotaminute
11-05-2014, 10:46
You gave the reason for that as being
When you put on record, you plonk it on the turntable and put the arm in place. When you play a CD, you plonk it on the turntable and put the puck/lid/whatever in place. pretty similar physical interaction.
Of course, if it's just a familiarity thing and a specific vinyl thing - love looking at the grooves, love the size of a 12", love watching the needle riding along the groove etc, then fair enough! You're doomed not to enjoy CD.
I'd argue though that you do have an interest in CD but you're in denial, because you've already said how you like the sound - that's an interest in itself isn't it?
I don't this is fair. There's a big difference between the way I play a vinyl record compared with a CD. When I play a record I know I'm going to sit down and listen to at least one half uninterrupted (usually I listen to the whole thing). I take a bit longer to select what I want to listen to. Sometime I clean the stylus first, I may even give the record a clean if it needs it. I then switch on the phono stage and give it a minute or two to warm up. I take the record out of the sleeve (an opportunity to enjoy the album art) and place it carefully on the turntable and switch on the motor, again giving it a minute or two to warm up. I then cue up the record (taking a bit of care) and sit down and enjoy the music.
It's not like that with a CD of PC file, at least for me. If I play a CD I pick one out of the rack, fight with the horrible plastic case, drop it in the tray and press play. I then quickly decide I don't really like that particular track so skip to another. I then realise I haven't set the TV digital recorder for BBC Young Musician and disappear into the other room. I then realise I'm thirsty so pop into the kitchen to put the kettle on. Then I get back into the music room and think, this would sound better on vinyl :)
Lawrence
It's not like that with a CD of PC file, at least for me. If I play a CD I pick one out of the rack, fight with the horrible plastic case, drop it in the tray and press play. I then quickly decide I don't really like that particular track so skip to another. I then realise I haven't set the TV digital recorder for BBC Young Musician and disappear into the other room. I then realise I'm thirsty so pop into the kitchen to put the kettle on. Then I get back into the music room and think, this would sound better on vinyl :)
Lawrence
But why not for CD? Why don't you have a CD player which deserves warming up - I think they do need it.
Why don't you skip tracks with vinyl? If it's because you have a remote with the CD player then try loosing it for a while - might increase your enjoyment of an album!
Why can't you concentrate on the CD? I can understand the desire to listen to vinyl side all the way through because there's a kind of danger and delicacy to the equipment which makes you psychologically not want to touch it too often, like a fear or reverence towards it. With CD, there's not that fear/reverence and so you know you can walk out of the room with it playing and just walk back again and re-start. You're not 'forced' to listen - i.e. you're more free with CD.
These are all points though which don't make sense to me if you love the music you're playing!
I put on a CD for background music so that I can go make a cup of tea ... but instead end up sitting through a few tracks not wanting to move because I'm enjoying it.
Something I find with vinyl is the need to rush back to the seat is annoying so I often listen to vinyl standing up and not completely relaxed - I know I've got to get up in 15 mins or so when I'd rather just sit through the whole album completely absorbed, not moving. It's almost like vinyl is better for playing single tracks for me, and not bothering to sit down. No-wonder you see so many photos of people with records around them sitting right in front of their dansette! So much more practical than record player miles away. The key is to have the deck near where you sit I think.
I do enjoy vinyl though, sounds different and I enjoy that sound.
losenotaminute
12-05-2014, 14:38
But why not for CD? Why don't you have a CD player which deserves warming up - I think they do need it.
Why don't you skip tracks with vinyl? If it's because you have a remote with the CD player then try loosing it for a while - might increase your enjoyment of an album!
Why can't you concentrate on the CD? I can understand the desire to listen to vinyl side all the way through because there's a kind of danger and delicacy to the equipment which makes you psychologically not want to touch it too often, like a fear or reverence towards it. With CD, there's not that fear/reverence and so you know you can walk out of the room with it playing and just walk back again and re-start. You're not 'forced' to listen - i.e. you're more free with CD.
These are all points though which don't make sense to me if you love the music you're playing!
I put on a CD for background music so that I can go make a cup of tea ... but instead end up sitting through a few tracks not wanting to move because I'm enjoying it.
Something I find with vinyl is the need to rush back to the seat is annoying so I often listen to vinyl standing up and not completely relaxed - I know I've got to get up in 15 mins or so when I'd rather just sit through the whole album completely absorbed, not moving. It's almost like vinyl is better for playing single tracks for me, and not bothering to sit down. No-wonder you see so many photos of people with records around them sitting right in front of their dansette! So much more practical than record player miles away. The key is to have the deck near where you sit I think.
I do enjoy vinyl though, sounds different and I enjoy that sound.
I wouldn't for a moment suggest that my attitude is logical, and I don't imagine that others are of the same mindset, it's just the way it is for me. No doubt I could do more to make CDs work better for me, if I ever get sick of cleaning records and the stylus I may resort to that.
I use the different formats in very different ways and I don't regard different formats as all that similar, but it's just a personal choice.
I don't this is fair. There's a big difference between the way I play a vinyl record compared with a CD. When I play a record I know I'm going to sit down and listen to at least one half uninterrupted (usually I listen to the whole thing). I take a bit longer to select what I want to listen to. Sometime I clean the stylus first, I may even give the record a clean if it needs it. I then switch on the phono stage and give it a minute or two to warm up. I take the record out of the sleeve (an opportunity to enjoy the album art) and place it carefully on the turntable and switch on the motor, again giving it a minute or two to warm up. I then cue up the record (taking a bit of care) and sit down and enjoy the music.
It's not like that with a CD of PC file, at least for me. If I play a CD I pick one out of the rack, fight with the horrible plastic case, drop it in the tray and press play. I then quickly decide I don't really like that particular track so skip to another. I then realise I haven't set the TV digital recorder for BBC Young Musician and disappear into the other room. I then realise I'm thirsty so pop into the kitchen to put the kettle on. Then I get back into the music room and think, this would sound better on vinyl :)
Lawrence
I used to pick a CD out of the rack, fight with the horrible plastic case, then listen to the horrible plastic sound and then turn it off any go and put the kettle on. :lol:
PaulStewart
12-05-2014, 21:01
Right, out of interest today I was working on a review of the new SACD/CD hybrid of Eric Clapton's Journeyman album. I had the original Vinyl and the original CD plus a cassette from the master tape I was given back in the day which is on BASF CR2 tape, it was made during the cut. I put them all on simultaneously and swithched between them to see which I preferred. There were differences sure, and I did come to one conclusion....... Man I gotta get a pre amp with a remote! :sofa: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Seriously, yes there were differences in the presentation, but it was all enjoyable :)
Cheers
Dauntless
12-05-2014, 23:06
I was going to add my two pennies worth to this thread but bugger it, I can't be bothered;)
The Barbarian
12-05-2014, 23:15
yes best policy imho..
I used to pick a CD out of the rack, fight with the horrible plastic case, then listen to the horrible plastic sound and then turn it off any go and put the kettle on. :lol:
I must say, I've never had any trouble opening a CD case! :scratch: Apart from perhaps a CD single.. I prefer to slide my CDs out of a nice cardboard sleeve though, the more unfolding and sliding out, the better! Digipaks and unusual packing always scream for my attention in secondhand and charity shops.
Worse though is sliding a prized LP out of a protective plastic cover and getting it back in again, especially one where the original packaging has a flapped cover with sticky seal - I never have the openings all aligned as they tend to accidently fall out and encourages others to be a bit less careful, act like DJs.
Right, out of interest today I was working on a review of the new SACD/CD hybrid of Eric Clapton's Journeyman album. I had the original Vinyl and the original CD plus a cassette from the master tape I was given back in the day which is on BASF CR2 tape, it was made during the cut. I put them all on simultaneously and swithched between them to see which I preferred. There were differences sure, and I did come to one conclusion....... Man I gotta get a pre amp with a remote! :sofa: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Seriously, yes there were differences in the presentation, but it was all enjoyable :)
Cheers
I was secretly routing for the cassette.. How come you had a cassette of the master tape and cut on the same day as the mastering? Sounds intriguing..
PaulStewart
13-05-2014, 02:22
Hi Nat,
I used to be in the recording business, and people used to pass tapes around. A mate of mine worked at the mastering room, Sterling Sound in New York, where it was done. I have about 400 tapes made from masters or straight of the desk, all of which are very dynamic, but let's not throw another alternative into the mix :lol:
Got a few curios, if anyone knows Psychoderelict by Pete Townsend, I have the pre release promo tape of that, without the swear words being bleeped, as they are on the released versions that I've heard.
Light Dependant Resistor
13-05-2014, 06:47
Hi
Paul raises interesting comment concerning dynamics, as this is an area I concentrated on 4 years ago and have been enjoying ever since. The thread is of course LP vs CD and deserves respect to talk about that.
About 13 years ago I remember a listening session very fondly there was a very good turntable and very good phono stage a nice power amp and some ESL63's that happened to be in the same room. A three blind mice LP and a three blind mice CD of the same artist. the CD source was a Pioneer PDS701 however tweaked to extract LRCK,BCK,and DATA via flip flops interpolating via the players 16.934 Mhz Clock, then onto a Audio synthesis DSM similarly tweaked to receive said signals and described here: http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/viewpoint/0401/deficienciesofspdif.htm
There was agreement that both sources sounded the same, with slight preference to the CD source as there were no clicks from surface noise from the LP and bass was slightly better.
Regarding dynamics, the work of David Blackmer http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=49X3GKxH8EI needs to be picked up by audiophiles.
For listening I use a variety of CD sources, and still the audio synthesis DSM with the three codes, and still use my turntable a Linn LP12 with SME2 arm, but always now record my sources onto a Yamaha CDRHD1500 via a DBX150x using its companding to then playback with improvement. Given the 150x can be used real time without a recording device, it is an improvement I regularly suggest.
Cheers / Chris
StanleyB
13-05-2014, 08:19
As far as dynamics goes, DAC chips vary in their maximum output level, which is directly related to the possible obtainable dynamic level. For 16Bit CD the standard is supposed to be 2Vrms. But DAC chip manufacturers have not been sticking to this standard. From my own experiments I have come to the conclusion that 24Bit needs more than 2Vrms. If memory serves me right the PCM1716 for example has only a 0.6V maximum output level, whilst the WM7816 has an output of 1.2Vms. It is obvious that these figures are well below the 2Vrms level. So DAC designers have to use an extra amplification stage to raise the output to 2Vrms. Some even take it higher than that in order to create an artificial impression of an even higher dynamic range. But either way, there is a plateau above which a digital file can't go in terms of dynamic range or maximum sound output decoding.
A pickup on the other hand can vary in output level by a far wider margin, and so can the output that can be scraped out of a piece of vinyl. The best vinyl in terms of dynamic range tends to be the 12" EP. My assumption is that this is possible due to the fewer grooves and wider groove spacing, which offers the possibility of a large signal waveform on the vinyl cut.
Light Dependant Resistor
13-05-2014, 09:11
As far as dynamics goes, DAC chips vary in their maximum output level, which is directly related to the possible obtainable dynamic level. For 16Bit CD the standard is supposed to be 2Vrms. But DAC chip manufacturers have not been sticking to this standard. From my own experiments I have come to the conclusion that 24Bit needs more than 2Vrms. If memory serves me right the PCM1716 for example has only a 0.6V maximum output level, whilst the WM7816 has an output of 1.2Vms. It is obvious that these figures are well below the 2Vrms level. So DAC designers have to use an extra amplification stage to raise the output to 2Vrms. Some even take it higher than that in order to create an artificial impression of an even higher dynamic range. But either way, there is a plateau above which a digital file can't go in terms of dynamic range or maximum sound output decoding.
A pickup on the other hand can vary in output level by a far wider margin, and so can the output that can be scraped out of a piece of vinyl. The best vinyl in terms of dynamic range tends to be the 12" EP. My assumption is that this is possible due to the fewer grooves and wider groove spacing, which offers the possibility of a large signal waveform on the vinyl cut.
Very interesting indeed, i just looked up the specs for the ultra analog D20400 and its analog output was a massive 5 volts positive to 5 volts negative - no wonder it sounds so good.
You are really on to something here audiophiles from now on need to select DAC chips and analog output stages with a bit more scrutiny observing voltage swing, also a return to discrete DAC's for Left and Right and output stages to complement should be implemented again as this is how ultra analog achieved the great results for their D20400, other greats of course were the Marantz players with 2 x TDA1541, and the Stan Curtis inspired Cambridge DAC's with 4x TDA1541
Cheers / Chris
Having a large voltage swing does not necessarily guarantee a good open dynamic sound, it certainly helps but with all things of this nature correct implementation is the key.
Some op-amps can swing +/-18V a potential 'swing' of 36V which is large along with ultra low noise under 4 mew volts and large bandwidths over 1Ghz again feed them average grounds and supply voltages and your sound will suffer no matter how good the A to D chip-sets are.
Most stand alone CDP's and Dac's give between 1.8Vac and 2.4Vac (single ended) and 3.2Vac up to 6.6Vac (balanced output) which will give you the perception of WOW that's dynamic and alive (Chord Dac 64 et al anyone?)
Those units with a digital volume control usually have up to 68-70dB worth of attenuation useable.
There are a few unit which use a digitally controlled analogue stage some of these can deliver a genuine 20Vac!
Comparing CD's to Vinyl is not just about pure dynamic range you must factor in bandwidth, noise floor and listeners preference into the equation.
Some of the best TT's on the planet only manage 75dB Signal to noise ration an average CD give around 93 dB mark, those these days most high end units mange in excess of 110 db pretty easily.
Band width Vinyl has 27Khz which is significantly more that CD's 20Khz after brick wall filter (22.05Khz in real terms)
Personally I'm a digital guy, however vinyl can sound superb if the correct factors are put in place.
The Barbarian
13-05-2014, 11:15
How come all these Electronics masterminds don't make their own equipment? ;)
Naughty Nigel
13-05-2014, 11:29
How come all these Electronics masterminds don't make their own equipment? ;)
Some of us do! :)
Nigel.
Very interesting indeed, i just looked up the specs for the ultra analog D20400 and its analog output was a massive 5 volts positive to 5 volts negative - no wonder it sounds so good.
You are really on to something here audiophiles from now on need to select DAC chips and analog output stages with a bit more scrutiny observing voltage swing, also a return to discrete DAC's for Left and Right and output stages to complement should be implemented again as this is how ultra analog achieved the great results for their D20400, other greats of course were the Marantz players with 2 x TDA1541, and the Stan Curtis inspired Cambridge DAC's with 4x TDA1541
Cheers / Chris
Ooooo, I'm a big fan of the D20400 - have a DSM too and am slowly working towards a DIY using two D20400s in some kind of NOS mode after upsampling, running at 20/384KHz via the Edel/Anagram Q5 processor and some kind of non-nyquist shallow low pass filter, probably via cathode follower valve output stage.
I got the D20400 original application notes [scans of] from Daniel Weiss from his well organised digital archive - have posted them up here: http://pdfcast.org/profile/nat8808
A pickup on the other hand can vary in output level by a far wider margin, and so can the output that can be scraped out of a piece of vinyl. The best vinyl in terms of dynamic range tends to be the 12" EP. My assumption is that this is possible due to the fewer grooves and wider groove spacing, which offers the possibility of a large signal waveform on the vinyl cut.
My theory is that it's due to energy imparted to the faster moving vinyl - the speed increases the kinetic energy via a square law - but that a 7" is compromised by the lessening of the things you describe compared to the 12".
That would make the outer grooves the most dynamic of all!
PaulStewart
13-05-2014, 20:11
My theory is that it's due to energy imparted to the faster moving vinyl - the speed increases the kinetic energy via a square law - but that a 7" is compromised by the lessening of the things you describe compared to the 12".
That would make the outer grooves the most dynamic of all!
Absolutely, it's a case of the faster the speed, the bore bits per second = Greater dynamics just as higher tape speed is better. in 1980 Stiff did a 78 RPM promo of Joe "King" Carrasco and the Crowns track "Buena", cut in stereo/microgroove and pressed on vinyl. Someone from the record company brought it round to me with the press pack and they were having a real chuckle that no one could play it. I had a TD 124 at the time :) We were all staggered at how much better it sounded that the 7' (expected) and the album (not so expected). Time to go back to 78 :lol:
The Barbarian
13-05-2014, 21:21
those 80's 12" singles such as say Kate Bush 'Running Up That Hill''or Phil Collins 'Sussudio'.. I have a mate that refuses ter listern to LP's! his whole collection is made up of 12" singles, because he says that any LP he plays will degrade the sound of his turntable.. I can't fully understand where he is coming from tbh..
Absolutely, it's a case of the faster the speed, the bore bits per second = Greater dynamics just as higher tape speed is better. in 1980 Stiff did a 78 RPM promo of Joe "King" Carrasco and the Crowns track "Buena", cut in stereo/microgroove and pressed on vinyl. Someone from the record company brought it round to me with the press pack and they were having a real chuckle that no one could play it. I had a TD 124 at the time :) We were all staggered at how much better it sounded that the 7' (expected) and the album (not so expected). Time to go back to 78 :lol:
If I ever make some music and that is worth listening to, I'll press some 78s .. perhaps as a B-side.
In fact scratch that! I'm going to press some 126rpms! EXclusive for all STD 305D deck owners (speed adjust to about that speed). Should keep a few cart re-tippers in business :D
Anthony K
25-03-2015, 17:32
I was going to add my two pennies worth to this thread but bugger it, I can't be bothered;)
:lol:
The basic issue with CDs is that they are just so naff......and that's before you listen to them. They 'feel' older and more obsolete than vinyl. Thoroughly nasty bit of technology. Shame sacd never caught on, much nicer sounding.
The Barbarian
25-03-2015, 22:36
i thought HDCD sounded best to my ears anyhow..
The basic issue with CDs is that they are just so naff......and that's before you listen to them. They 'feel' older and more obsolete than vinyl. Thoroughly nasty bit of technology. Shame sacd never caught on, much nicer sounding.
It's kind of nice not to have to get up to change the side so often though with a CD, especially if you've had a couple of lagers.
:cool:
Anthony K
28-03-2015, 16:55
30 years ago cd's did indeed sound atrocious but luckily Digital mixing and mastering techniques have moved on. ( these techniques only moved on when people finally realised the capabilities of digital ) Still today , a number of people refuse to fork out money for a good cdp , yet will spend thousands on a TT. Maybe its not the cd's that sound bad but rather the replay system especially if the system is designed around the TT.
Haselsh1
28-03-2015, 16:58
That is my one big complaint with vinyl; three tracks a side and constantly getting off your arse to turn them over. Real pain in the arse. Another one is having to clear the stylus part way through one side; another bloody journey to the turntable...!
If your record is clean that wont happen ;)
turning is part of the joy of the feely touchy vinyl thrill...........:)
The feely-touchy aspect is what vinyl's all about I think. As far as CD is concerned, all I want to say at this point is that more modern player and/or DAC solutions, used with decent cabling (the Klotz MC5000/MS is an ideal cable solution here and works well with anything after a few hours' use from making up) can make early issued CD's sound better than I've ever heard them (Vivaldi Four Seasons - Academy of Ancient Music/Pinnock) and some rock CD's I have where the low level of mastering volume was an issue in the early days, players then sounding more washed out than usual. I just feel that more modern digital technology seems to sound more 'linear' and 'strong' as levels decrease; something I wasn't aware of in lower cost players until the early to mid 90's at least.
The Barbarian
29-03-2015, 13:23
I generally only play 12" singles these days so up off your arse it is..I enjoy the hand on.. Records are for the proper Audio enthusiast see. I have never & will never take CD serious & certainly do not associate it with what i call a real audio system, it's like convenience food Vs home cooked food to me, on that note i have no idea why people bother with CDee anymore, they may aswell play lossless files. Ive listerned to top notch CD systems Vc cheap lossless system, the latter sounds better to my lug holes that's fer sure.
I was playing a couple of LPs earlier and I was looking at my vinyl collection, most of which was bought over twenty years ago and couldn't help feeling a bit of satisfaction that I never junked it and always kept a TT on the go, even though I reckon CD is closer to the original recording, what they heard at the mixing desk.
But the discs are small and crappy, as are the casework and the miniature album sleeves which ruin the whole point of album art. Records are for the serious enthusiast? Yes well given the complexity of TT set up and so on I have to agree. If you have been doing it for years that's fine it is second nature but if you are brand new to it and know nothing it is rocket science.
Pieoftheday
29-03-2015, 15:23
I havnt used vinyl since around 1989, a JVC midi system in my bedroom, I loved it, but I bought into the CD hype :( I don't have the space for a TT or space for lots of records now but if I did I'd be back in the game. Having said that, the set up I have now is great, I wouldn't say its sounds like vinyl but it doesn't have that horrible digital edge that's blighted most of the systems I've had. I'm just looking around the living room to see if there is space, ooh no..
Of course there is space. You just need space for the TT, the phono stage, the power supply to the phono stage, a record cleaning machine and a big bookcase for the vinyl to live in .
Could do it in a caravan ;)
Pieoftheday
29-03-2015, 15:58
Of course there is space. You just need space for the TT, the phono stage, the power supply to the phono stage, a record cleaning machine and a big bookcase for the vinyl to live in .
Could do it in a caravan ;)
Don't bloody tempt me!!! T'other Alf will av me testicoyles:eek:
Pieoftheday
29-03-2015, 16:20
Slightly off topic but I have to say my pioneer a30 is the most enjoyable amp I've had, never had owt 'high end' arc am a80 , marantz pm8003, Sony tafb940r, n others I can't recall,this beats em for me, mainly because it just drives the speakers, I don't listen to it, just what's playing , aaand relax. Yes yes I know other bits are playing their part:drinking:
Audio Advent
29-03-2015, 20:27
Don't bloody tempt me!!! T'other Alf will av me testicoyles:eek:
Any next other half I have will also be into vinyl.. I seriously think I'd have problems with their personality if they didn't at least get it. The audio/hifi bit needs to be brought up early so they understand what makes you tick and appreciate and like that part of you (as long as you're not too obsessive, perhaps hide that part and work at not being so before they find out :) ) It helps living in "trendy" east London I guess.
Right, better get off the forum as part of making sure I'm not too "obsessive" !
Don't bloody tempt me!!! T'other Alf will av me testicoyles:eek:
It's a slippery slope is the black stuff.;)
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