View Full Version : Trade Input on AoS: Getting The Balance Right
The Grand Wazoo
29-04-2014, 07:56
We are all aware that there is a spectrum of views over the balance of content between trade input and that from normal members. It's a balance that is difficult to get right, and sometimes the rules are stretched and other times they are just plain broken. It bothers some people but not others.
With that then, I'd like to know where you stand on this. I'd like to hear your views and I'd be very grateful if they could be made calmly and dispassionately. This is a chance to have your voice heard but if anyone chooses to take the opportunity to 'have a go', then the delete button will be used without hesitation. Additionally, we will not have any finger pointing, or singling out of individuals in this excercise.
Also, please be very clear that this is not an opportunity to make AoS a non-trade forum. That is not going to happen because some of our trade members are exemplary and long may they continue to be so.
Please vote in the poll whether you take part in the discussion or not. But it would be good to hear your views on the subject, and that includes the views of our trade members.
The Poll will be anonymous.
It's a tricky one. It would be draconian, and probably counter-productive, to ban trade members from posting in non-trade areas, but recent events have shown that there's a thin line between advising prospective purchasers about your products (what they do, how much they cost, etc) and 'spamming' those products. But it's hard to avoid the impression that, of late, AoS has become increasingly dominated by discussions of particular products, with the manufacturers/distributors/retailers of those products 'enthusiatically' joining in.
Maybe the new guidelines on what can and can't be done with regard to products for review will help, but what's really needed is for some trade members to show a bit more restraint when their own products are under discussion, and/or to contribute more to discussions about products they don't actually make or sell.
Also, please be very clear that this is not an opportunity to make AoS a non-trade forum. That is not going to happen because some of our trade members are exemplary and long may they continue to be so.
Spot on!
I think that it is a good idea to remind some that restraint in making the members aware of new products is in everybody's interest.
I think it's not the amount of 'trade content' but where and how that 'content' is posted that irks many folk....
Well, seeing as it was myself that apparently has started all this angst and navel gazing by some postings I have made, then I want to get my oar in at the earliest opportunity.
At any other time that someone has sent me anything to evaluate, I have always kept it private and confidential between myself and the person(s) that has sent the item to me. I have done this for the following reasons:
1). I am generally brutally honest in whatever I appraise, which means naturally there will be comments which would do great commercial harm if put into the public domain prematurely.
2). It then gives the person/s the opportunity to respond accordingly and make any changes if they find any merit in my criticisms, or dismiss them entirely.
3). Lastly and most importantly, if it is a prototype, then protocol dictates that the full product is then reviewed again.
All well and dandy, but with what is now known as the "SLIC Innovations Eclipse C" that has caused SO much controversy it was ME that broke all the rules, not David Brook at MCRU, so you can lay the blame squarely at me. Why did I do that? I will tell you why.
No need to repeat yet again the relationship between myself and cables - we will take that as a given to save time. Back in November of last year I was sent yet another "mystery cable" because it was not the first one sent to me, as there has been a series of them and not just from MCRU I might add, so no shocks or surprises there and I wasn't that fussed about yet another wanky wire to listen to.
What was the total shock and surprise was the sound I heard straight out of the packet that it came in and plugged into what many would deem my current humble system. This was no "tone control" I was listening to, this was no complicated set of balances and compromises formulated to please the audiophile ears, this was the real deal, this I knew instantly was the cable the me and probably the world has been waiting for. I know right now those that are reading this are thinking "yeah, right" and that is because you are riddled with prejudices and a completely closed mind. That is not my problem to deal with is it?
I sent an email to David Brook asking who, what, why and when about this mystery cable and all I was told was that it was a patented design from the inventor he happened to meet by pure accident. That was it, no construction details, no anticipated price, not even told where to look up the patent, not that it actually mattered because by then I was completely beguiled by this "mystery cable" and will admit to wanting to shout from the rooftops about it and rightly so in my opinion, so I asked David Brook if I could post my findings on AoS. Note, it was me asking, not David Brook telling - that is VERY important. I then typed out the analysis that you all saw back in November of last year. Nothing was added by David Brook, not a single syllable of it and I still stand by what I wrote 100% back then and also in the "revisited" thread recently closed. If it was just another cocktail of compromises cable design I wouldn't have uttered a single word about it.
Yes, your minds are indeed closed, because firstly you are automatically assuming this is JUST another cable "fad" and what is all the fuss about? Indeed, the "secret" of this cable's sound is so blindingly obvious and if your brain is stuck on the tramlines of resistance, capacitance and inductance parameters alone, it's obvious why you cannot see it and probably never will. I stumbled across the same problem years ago but i couldn't find a sensible answer to it. Well maybe I could have done, but be aware the inventor of the SLIC spent more money and years on the solution than I was prepared to throw at it. And people are whining about the price?????
It has caused controversy and division, so all I can say is GOOD, it's about time some apple carts are being upset so we do more than just grumble and gripe about the status quo. Banning all reviews with a manufacturer/dealer behind it is tantamount to gagging, so how do we get to hear about new these new innovations that deserve to be recognised?
Frank
Well, it's good to know that everyone except you has a closed mind.
Surely the point about any component or accessory is that its sound will be system-dependent, room-dependent, and user-dependent. What 'should' have happened IMO is that you should have posted your initial 'mystery cable revisted' post, then said, in effect: 'MCRU stocks this, so if you're interested, contact him', then left it to others to comment on/review the cable in their own good time without further input from yourself.
And I don't think anyone is suggesting banning reviews altogether; only that such reviews should be of items for which AoS members have shelled out for, rather than of 'freebies' or loan items, because the ultimate test of any opinion on hifi is 'would you spend your own money on one?'
Well, it's good to know that everyone except you has a closed mind.
Surely the point about any component or accessory is that its sound will be system-dependent, room-dependent, and user-dependent. What 'should' have happened IMO is that you should have posted your initial 'mystery cable revisted' post, then said, in effect: 'MCRU stocks this, so if you're interested, contact him', then left it to others to comment on/review the cable in their own good time without further input from yourself.
And I don't think anyone is suggesting banning reviews altogether; only that such reviews should be of items for which AoS members have shelled out for, rather than of 'freebies' or loan items, because the ultimate test of any opinion on hifi is 'would you spend your own money on one?'
If you need to look for an example of having a closed mind then you have found one. You.
The cable is neither system dependant or room dependant, so that is another poor excuse you have found to criticise. What makes you think I did one test in one room on one system only?
You accused me of "egging on" people that have bought the cable, so do I have to travel round the country now indoctrinating all those people into hearing what I hear? The notion is absurd, like the right of your input into the subject and if that offends I make no apologies.
It is people like you Joe that MAKE the circular arguments just for the sake of it.
The real heroes in this scenario are the inventor who should be lauded and the people that are actually listening to the cable's capabilities. Mr MCRU and me are just incidental.
Gordon Steadman
29-04-2014, 10:20
I
The cable is neither system dependant or room dependant
Sorry, thats a nonsense statement. Every component is one or the other. Its impossible to remove the rest of the bits and the room from the equation. I am, as you probably gather, a complete and utter sceptic when it comes to cables but I have no problem others being into what they like. However, this is a subjective forum and the sceptic's subjective view is as relevant as yours. Its the totally over the top evangelising that annoys.
Anyway I suspect this thread is not supposed to be about this.
twickers
29-04-2014, 10:20
I had no problems with Franks ( and everyone else ) enthusiasm for the cable, but now unfortunately Frank your arrogance is getting a bit too much.
If you need to look for an example of having a closed mind then you have found one. You.
The cable is neither system dependant or room dependant, so that is another poor excuse you have found to criticise. What makes you think I did one test in one room on one system only?
You accused me of "egging on" people that have bought the cable, so do I have to travel round the country now indoctrinating all those people into hearing what I hear? The notion is absurd, like the right of your input into the subject and if that offends I make no apologies.
It is people like you Joe that MAKE the circular arguments just for the sake of it.
The real heroes in this scenario are the inventor who should be lauded and the people that are actually listening to the cable's capabilities. Mr MCRU and me are just incidental.
Cool your boots, man.
I've had personal experience of trying out a cable that was praised to the skies on AoS and elsewhere , 'totally transformed the sound' 'better than anything at ten times the price' etc. I didn't like it. It wasn't just that it made no difference to the sound of my system, to my ears it made the system sound much worse that it had using a random set of cables that had been acquired over the years, or had come free with the kit. My conclusion was not that others were 'wrong' or had 'closed minds', just that whatever they were hearing was not matched by what I was hearing, so I sent the cables back and got a refund.
I can't see that there is a problem with the Trade stuff, current debate included.
Trade members seem quite open and honest about their dealings. I didn't read Effem's postings as an attempt to ramp up sales but more as a keenness to share his excitement about a new find. I, for one, take Effem at his word (above) and would be depressed if the policies of this forum were changed in a way that stopped people sharing enthusiastically their finds, be they expensive cables or those Lidl rubber thingies. Most of us show some evidence of being grown up and being able spot a shill, and to act accordingly. The mods will doubtless fish out their red cards pronto where that happens.
I found the relevant thread of limited interest and simply clicked by after the first two or three updates. No big deal. Judging by the number of posts in it, others didn't. That's life on a forum.
But I must say that one of the things I most value about this forum is that people are almost invariably civilised towards each other and are capable of seeing that other points of view are valid if not shared. I'd hate to see that lost.
Peter
Frank
Good to see you able to post again but I think you need some music
s8xdA7vbJHw
Well to the best of my memory recalls, the last cable I actually made a fuss about was the cheapo Belkin Silver Series.
I am not to blame for the surge of euphoria over the TQ cables because all I did was ask "Has anyone tried the TQ speaker cables?" and I bought a pair of Blues long after the surge of interest in them was over. Yes I did enthuse about them, because they are good cables.
Sorry, thats a nonsense statement. Every component is one or the other. Its impossible to remove the rest of the bits and the room from the equation. I am, as you probably gather, a complete and utter sceptic when it comes to cables but I have no problem others being into what they like. However, this is a subjective forum and the sceptic's subjective view is as relevant as yours. Its the totally over the top evangelising that annoys.
Anyway I suspect this thread is not supposed to be about this.
Hi Gordon,
That is why these threads get closed, you have not heard the cable so cannot state its not room dependant or system dependant, many thanks..:)
I am not advocating you buy one either as this is NOT a for sale / trade thread let's be clear on that one
Gordon Steadman
29-04-2014, 11:06
Hi Gordon,
That is why these threads get closed, you have not heard the cable so cannot state its not room dependant or system dependant, many thanks..:)
I am not advocating you buy one either as this is NOT a for sale / trade thread let's be clear on that one
Yes I can actually as its my opinion based on many years of listening. I suspect that it is accepted wisdom (dangerous though that may be) that every component has some effect on any system. We are being told that certain cables 'transform' - I assume that means some sort of effect.
StanleyB
29-04-2014, 11:12
It's a tricky one. It would be draconian, and probably counter-productive, to ban trade members from posting in non-trade areas, but recent events have shown that there's a thin line between advising prospective purchasers about your products (what they do, how much they cost, etc) and 'spamming' those products.
I rather a trader mention his latest wireless interconnect or hum absorbing sponge in a thread, then to see flying and scrolling adverts popping up around the borders of my screen. It also gives me a chance to enter into direct conversation with the trader about the product. When was the last time any of us had a chance to discuss directly on AoS a product from Arcam, Naim, Rega, Chord, etc with a company representative of those items? The traders are the only real intermediary on hand to question. Barring them from taking part and being excited about the items they sell is extremely unhelpful. The trader is likely to have auditioned similar products and made his choice about which one to stock based on his own opinion on quality, delivery, and performance. Those sort of details are highly sought after in search engines. And AoS comes up as a source more often than not when you are looking for those things.
But it's hard to avoid the impression that, of late, AoS has become increasingly dominated by discussions of particular products, with the manufacturers/distributors/retailers of those products 'enthusiatically' joining in.
Can anyone point me to some concrete evidence to back up the above claim? I must have missed those threads.
But how bad is the alleged situation reality? I personally think that it is blown out of all proportion. Some people just like to moan about the trade presence in a thread, and have an engrained hatred for the small trader who is trying to make a living and contribution at the same time.
When you ask a trade member to pay a subscription fee, what does that fee entitle one to? Just advertising in the trade section? Let's get some clarity on this.
And exactly what restraint should be placed by individual trade members when their own products are under discussion? I am fortunate to have my own forum area, but many well known members who have been on AoS for almost as long as me are not in that same position. We as a group helped to make AoS popular via various means. Should we now be shafted as a reward? Some people think that even one trade member is too much outside a trade only area.
I personally agree with that Stanley up to the last bit, and the that last bit I've never really thought about in any depth so don't have an opinion.
Gordon Steadman
29-04-2014, 11:24
I personally agree with that Stanley up to the last bit, and the that last bit I've never really thought about in any depth so don't have an opinion.
Trade members are users of hi-fi like the rest of us and have a right to enter normal discussion. I voted that the balance is fine as it is.
Its the 'normal' bit that is a bit hard to monitor and control.
Hi Gordon,
That is why these threads get closed, you have not heard the cable so cannot state its not room dependant or system dependant, many thanks..:)
It may well be room dependant and system dependant in someone else's experience.. and so, because you can't hear with their ears, you cannot state that it is definately NOT room or system dependant in their experience should they have it.. Thanks :)
You're trying to proove a negative there! Impossible...
I can't see that one can have an open mind on PRODUCT and so accept other's opinionsof it, but not when it comes to people's personal experiences that disagree with yours. Either you have an open mind or you don't..
Please be more open minded David - the way YOU perceive the world is not how EVERYONE experiences it. Accept other people's opinions of cables not making any difference as being just as valid as another who says they do - agreeing with youself doesn't make either one any more true. Which was Andrés point earlier (oh, on a different thread! haha..)
Anyway, this is off-topic !
Trade members are users of hi-fi like the rest of us and have a right to enter normal discussion. I voted that the balance is fine as it is.
Its the 'normal' bit that is a bit hard to monitor and control.
I'm kind of ok with the normal bit being a little wishy-washy and flexible.. But then I'm someone who never buys new so can't be swayed by that kind of marketing and feel I can sort out the hype from the genuine experiences.
In fact I find it more grating when people show their closed mindedness on the effects of placebo, suggestion etc on perception than I do overt marketing of a product!
In other words, trade discussion outside of the trade area is ok with me as long as the trade person isn't saying buy it buy it buy every post or making offers to members and therefore generating business - they can easily be thwarted and countered by bringing up their competition as being better, show up material costs etc etc therefore taking trade away from them in open forum. In open forum you can pour as much scrutiny upon them until they retreat back to the trade area if that would be more appropriate.
Making too much self-promotional noise in the general forum is NOT in trade people's interest!
e.g. the notorious thread could easily have gone into a discussion of the patent and construction of the cable and encouraged personal experimentation of DIY cabling and then people telling us how good that cable had sounded and offered to lend it to people for opinion..
Spectral Morn
29-04-2014, 13:36
I rather a trader mention his latest wireless interconnect or hum absorbing sponge in a thread, then to see flying and scrolling adverts popping up around the borders of my screen. It also gives me a chance to enter into direct conversation with the trader about the product. When was the last time any of us had a chance to discuss directly on AoS a product from Arcam, Naim, Rega, Chord, etc with a company representative of those items? The traders are the only real intermediary on hand to question. Barring them from taking part and being excited about the items they sell is extremely unhelpful. The trader is likely to have auditioned similar products and made his choice about which one to stock based on his own opinion on quality, delivery, and performance. Those sort of details are highly sought after in search engines. And AoS comes up as a source more often than not when you are looking for those things.
Can anyone point me to some concrete evidence to back up the above claim? I must have missed those threads.
But how bad is the alleged situation reality? I personally think that it is blown out of all proportion. Some people just like to moan about the trade presence in a thread, and have an engrained hatred for the small trader who is trying to make a living and contribution at the same time.
When you ask a trade member to pay a subscription fee, what does that fee entitle one to? Just advertising in the trade section? Let's get some clarity on this.
And exactly what restraint should be placed by individual trade members when their own products are under discussion? I am fortunate to have my own forum area, but many well known members who have been on AoS for almost as long as me are not in that same position. We as a group helped to make AoS popular via various means. Should we now be shafted as a reward? Some people think that even one trade member is too much outside a trade only area.
+ 1
However at the core of this hub bub is the age old issue of outlook (whether one is subjectavist or objectavist) and how folks express their valid experiences either to the I can hear it to I can't hear it and sadly we are back to the at times total lack of civility during those discussions which often are not, just stating of entrenched stances, often with no first hand experience of the item in question. Extreme acrimony gets going, which leads to nasty, vile trolling - frankly some of what I have read recently is disgusting and those involved should be totally ashamed of themselves but sadly wont be.
You do not have a right to set yourselves up as judges and jury's, nor do you have the right to out peoples private history and private lives etc in the course of being self appointed policemen. Keep in mind there are legal ramifications these days for what is said online and how it is said. With freedom of speech comes great responsibility and frankly its not been exercised with much care on here and elsewhere - imho.
Now back to trade involvement on AOS.
Now that folks in the trade (shops, distributors, vendors) pay a subscription to post trade related items, new products, ex demo, S/H items I think and I have said this already elsewhere I think they have a right to be able to post all info of products they have for sale and these should be individual listings for each item, the reality is putting several items under one thread means that folks interested in buying an item can miss out on something if the thread title doesn't include it.
Anyway what seems to be at heart here is a question again of ideology, in this case re the hifi retail trade having a right to exist, sell goods (in some folks minds anything at all, DIY being the only way) follow traditional retail models basically earn a living by making a profit and the nature of how that profit breaks down is also up for questions and ridicule. Well not everyone can do DIY or mod stuff so frankly I think trade have a right just as everyone else does to earn a living. It would be nice if that was always done to a very high standard, which it isn't always.
Folks buying new items and then saying they like them, which then invites trade to offer an opinion/advice is fine in my view, if AOS was only about old long out of production items or there was some ban on mentioning new products would hardly work, would it? Nor would banning trade from commenting broadly be much use either as there is a great deal of good, knowledge and advice on offer and shared quite often with no motive other than helping.
Yes we need balance and trade trolling, touting unrelated many times items in threads not in a million miles related is not on, nor should it be tolerated but again motive needs to be taken account of as sometimes a question asked isn't the right one. Often I had folks asking me about issues with systems and sometimes the suspected source of the issue wasn't the actual problem... so a little latitude needs to be exercised to see where suggestions are going and dare I say it in a broader sense too as many should ask themselves hard questions before they type anything.
Anyway AOS is a place the trade are welcome, always have and have mostly acquitted themselves well and with honour. If you feel trade have no place here and it annoys you then maybe you might be better going elsewhere where you feel comfortable. Equally if you prefer non production audio to be discussed go there, or purely measurement based discussion go there.
AOS is a pretty broad church and all are welcome, even those of differing views/experiences but sadly increasingly over the last while less and less civility is on show and it is that to a degree that is what is wrong not trade being involved or not - imho.
Edit just read this back and its not as well written as I would like, disadvantage of posting from work when one has been interrupted several times by actually doing work.
Regards Neil
generally I feel that the trade are reasonably well behaved
what gets my goat;
your a supplier, by all means tell me you stock brand x,y,z in your forum,
by all means add updates in there regarding new manufacturers or products thereof you are stocking
don't post a separate thread for every single item you have in stock with its individual price and keep bumping it. AOS isn't (or at least IMHO shouldn't be) used as your shop window to advertise every individual item with an individual price, its spam pure and simple.
You want to list every item with a price, keep it to a single current stock list thread.
...don't post a separate thread for every single item you have in stock with its individual price and keep bumping it. AOS isn't (or at least IMHO shouldn't be) used as your shop window to advertise every individual item with an individual price, its spam pure and simple.
You want to list every item with a price, keep it to a single current stock list thread.
Hi Mark, I completely agree, hence why we've addressed the issue here: http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?31644-***Traders-Please-Note***&p=537523#post537523
We'll also be ensuring that all traders comply with that rule.
Marco.
We are all aware that there is a spectrum of views over the balance of content between trade input and that from normal members. It's a balance that is difficult to get right, and sometimes the rules are stretched and other times they are just plain broken. It bothers some people but not others.
................
The Poll will be anonymous.
No vote. Unfortunately it is the minority which spoil it for others. Rather like MPs - they don't all do sexually inappropriate things BUT SOME DO and that should not be glossed over or diluted by the good behaviour of the honorable majority.
Trade people who behave as HiFi owners and share their experiences other than those involving their business interests are welcome. They often have a wide experience than the average member.
It may be better to ask this question in a month or twos time when the dust of this recent issue has settled and Trade members have matured into how they will be behaving.
The Grand Wazoo
01-05-2014, 07:47
Well, I have to say I'm amazed and somewhat disappointed that even this thread could turn into a cable debate. Incredible!
Well, there you go.
Anyway, looking at the poll so far, it seems that the only thing we can all agree on is option 3!
The poll itself is only part of it though, and the question was a starter for debate in the effort to make AoS better for everyone.
Two areas of activity cause particular concern:
Promotional content in non-trade areas.
Flooding the trade section with individual ads for single items.
You could read the (roughly) 60:40 split as meaning we're mostly OK, but to me the almost 40% who feel the balance is not right is significant & causes concern.
rubber duck
01-05-2014, 11:16
don't post a separate thread for every single item you have in stock with its individual price and keep bumping it. AOS isn't (or at least IMHO shouldn't be) used as your shop window to advertise every individual item with an individual price, its spam pure and simple.
You want to list every item with a price, keep it to a single current stock list thread.
Actually I would like to see separate threads per individual item so long as these are sale/ex-demo/used items as this is one way to find a good deal. If this is in the trade section I really don't see what the problem is. If it overwhelms "new posts" then perhaps have a button to omit trade classifieds. But as I said, I'm always on a lookout for new and interesting items on sale and it's a shame that MAX has had to comply with a single thread rule.
losenotaminute
01-05-2014, 17:51
I would vote and give my opinion if I felt it would make a difference, but to be honest I don't think the views of ordinary members count for much on this forum. Marco has made it very clear in the past that it's "his way or the highway", so what's the point of this poll? Do we have any commitment that the outcome of the poll will determine the forum policy?
The Grand Wazoo
01-05-2014, 17:57
Well, it's me who's asking for your view Lawrence but there's one thing for sure, if you don't give it, it definitely can't influence anything, can it now?
losenotaminute
01-05-2014, 18:04
Well, it's me who's asking for your view Lawrence but there's one thing for sure, if you don't give it, it definitely can't influence anything, can it now?
So that's a "no" then?
The Grand Wazoo
01-05-2014, 18:09
So that's a "no" then?
That's not what I said.
However, the views of members will always influence forum policy. How could they not do so?
Do you know of any other hifi forum that has a publicly viewable place like Critics Corner?
archiesdad
01-05-2014, 18:09
As a relative newbie here I feel that it's ok for the trade guys to have a wee go at promoting their wares, we're all adults here(well, most of us) and are(should be) able to sort the wheat from the chaff when it comes to sales sh*t( I'm an ex car salesman btw), most of it is good banter although some do take things a tad too serious and get a ratty. Still it does keep a lot of us amused.
kenworthy100
01-05-2014, 18:14
A difficult one, by and large the trade member participation is welcomed and informative, it is only a minority of traders who behave in a disingenuous and underhand way to promote their goods , in those circumstances I am personally more than happy to leave it to forum moderation to intervene and take necessary steps.
One thing I do object to is a trade post that goes into detail about a product then gives absolutely no indication of cost, it is almost like the old adage "if you have to ask the price you cannot afford it", therefore could some sort of measure be instigated which makes traders at least give a ball park figure for an item that they are writing about.
Hi Lawrence,
Marco has made it very clear in the past that it's "his way or the highway"...
Sorry, but I don't know where you got that idea from... If that were the case, why would Critic's Corner even exist?
Rest assured that we always listen to the opinions of members, and act on them if it's necessary - and this occasion is no different.
Marco.
Do you know of any other hifi forum that has a publicly viewable place like Critics Corner?
Precisely - and it exists because we care what people think :)
Try finding such a facility on pfm or Wigwam! ;)
Marco.
losenotaminute
01-05-2014, 18:41
Precisely - and it exists because we care what people think :)
Try finding such a facility on pfm or Wigwam! ;)
Marco.
In my opinion AoS is more controlling than pfm or Wigwam. I'm not saying that's a bad thing, in fact I think the opposite, both pfm and Wigwam are like the Wild West, with no sheriff in town.
Anyway, not wishing to be too grumpy, I will offer my view. I think the balance at the moment is about right, it would be a real shame to lose the input from trade members. When the trade members over-step the mark they are fairly swiftly brought to account by the members and mods. Traders who push the envelope too much do themselves more harm than good.
I think it's important that all members aren't slapped down too heavily by anyone for expressing opinions, but mods should try and ensure that things remain reasonably civil. I don't like permanent bans of anyone. A little bit of controversy keeps things entertaining for the rest of us.
Lawrence
The Grand Wazoo
01-05-2014, 18:43
Thank you for that Lawrence, it is much appreciated.
No problem, Lawrence. I largely agree, and your comments have been noted :)
Marco.
I personally like it when traders post pics of really stupidly expensive gear that is totally yummy. They should do more of it. Making me lust should be their prime function in life. Why else would I want to spend, spend, spendy?
Lotus do a pretty good job in that regard. Artisan TTs via Greg get me dripping at the mouth too. OK I've got personal, but it is +ve personal:)
Overall the balance seems pretty good to me, in that I've never really thought "there's something wrong here" apart from one particular item that really gets on my nerves.
Artisan TTs via Greg get me dripping at the mouth too...
First prize goes to whoever can cause a 'wee accident' in your pants? :eyebrows:
;)
Marco.
I don't like permanent bans of anyone.
Neither do we, Lawrence - and to (sort of) refer back to your "my way or the highway" point, since I have been part of the team I can't recollect a single ban (rare though they mercifully are) that wasn't democratically agree by all of us, and indeed there have been times where the majority have been the opposition to Marco and that was completely respected - if that wasn't the case I (and I am sure the other members of the team) wouldn't have stayed around for very long.
StanleyB
01-05-2014, 20:36
In my opinion AoS is more controlling than pfm or Wigwam. I'm not saying that's a bad thing, in fact I think the opposite, both pfm and Wigwam are like the Wild West, with no sheriff in town.
That's not my experience. Quite the opposite. But then again I am looking at it from the trading counter side of things.
First prize goes to whoever can cause a 'wee accident' in your pants? :eyebrows:
;)
Marco.
Er... nope! Pissing me off just pisses me off:D;)
Neither do we, Lawrence - and to (sort of) refer back to your "my way or the highway" point, since I have been part of the team I can't recollect a single ban (rare though they mercifully are) that wasn't democratically agree by all of us, and indeed there have been times where the majority have been the opposition to Marco and that was completely respected - if that wasn't the case I (and I am sure the other members of the team) wouldn't have stayed around for very long.
Could you ban Marco if he stepped out of line?
Could you ban Marco if he stepped out of line?
Technically, we probably could, but then none of us would fancy the horse's head in the bed, or concrete wellies the next day! :lol:
Technically, we probably could, but then none of us would fancy the horse's head in the bed, or concrete wellies the next day! :lol:
Go on, give it a go! You outnumber him, form a posse and head him off at the pass.
WAY OFF TOPIC - despite warnings
The Grand Wazoo
03-05-2014, 22:21
Guy,
I've removed your question to Frank.
If you still want to ask him, then do it elsewhere. Preferably by PM.
I've already said TWICE NOW that this thread is not for that.
And stop trying to stir the shit.
Well, I found the blanket trade presence here put me off posting for a goodly while and it also seems that any half decent threads tend to get buried. Sorry chaps, but I feel it has to be said!
walpurgis
03-05-2014, 22:31
The trade presence is visible, but I don't find it intrusive. If you don't like trader's posts, don't look at them. None bother me to be honest. It's all just part of the 'landscape'. :)
Well, I found the blanket trade presence here put me off posting for a goodly while and it also seems that any half decent threads tend to get buried. Sorry chaps, but I feel it has to be said!
What he sez...
Well, I found the blanket trade presence here put me off posting for a goodly while and it also seems that any half decent threads tend to get buried. Sorry chaps, but I feel it has to be said!
Hi Dave,
Could you define what you mean by "blanket trade presence", and also by "any half decent threads tend to get buried", quoting relevant examples of such (links to specific instances, demonstrating your point, would be good)?
Your opinion is valid, but in order to try and help fix what you perceive as a problem, I first of all need to understand it, as I'm not seeing what you're seeing. Rich, since you seem to agree with Dave, you could also help in that respect :)
Marco.
jandl100
04-05-2014, 07:11
Two thirds of us (including trade members presumably!) think the balance is about right.
That's how I voted, too.
Yep, some dealers get a bit uppity and pushy in varied ways sometimes, buy hey, that's folks for you.
The mods need to wade in when they get out of hand, and not to be shy about doing so, and that generally happens, sometimes later rather than sooner.
None of us are idiots -- well, OK, maybe I'd make a few exceptions to that rule ;) -- and we can generally see spamming, blatant or subtle, when it happens. ... But we sometimes fall for it anyway. :doh: :lol:
But I can also understand why the more reticent and gentlemanly dealers get a bit off piste when the 'lads' among the trade members are wading in about their own offerings, or getting others to do so, and dominating the forum for a while. To intervene arouses accusations of gagging from those under the spell, and those who haven't fallen for the line get understandably upset when a forum fad gathers momentum and dominates proceedings for a while.
It's a balance that is impossible to get right all the time - but the AOS mods are clearly aware of the issues and do a damn sight better job of it than some other forums, imho. :thumbsup:
A balance can be achieved with trade input as long as we all can discriminate between what is genuine unbridled enthusiasm for the hobby when posting as an individual like the rest of us and what is outright commercialism, directly peddling what that dealer him/herself sells with the aim of financial gain. The deciding factor should of course always be how much the forum benefits from being bestowed with this experience and knowledge from people in the trade.
One of the people that seems to have got the balance just about right is our Stan who makes knowledgeable contributions about DACs in general and his products when there is a technical query to resolve, but to the best of my knowledge he hasn't overtly promoted his products alone purely for gain.
For example, someone posts that they are in the market for a new pair of speakers and a dealer offers their opinion on ABC, DEF, MNO speakers which they have first hand experience of, but they themselves only stock XYZ speakers and leave out any mention of XYZ in their posts. This isn't happening and I personally take no notice of it at all, but it is still distasteful and highly unprofessional.
This is open and honest for all to see, however that does not address it happening beneath the surface by PM which we cannot see and that is far more foul and insidious than the overt promotion that we can see. Arguably too that anyone can click on the link a dealer provides and that is OK because that is of their own volition, so too is a member approaching a dealer for more information by PM about their products, I don't and never have had any problems with that. It is when dealers are almost "cold calling" by PM that needs to be reported to the mods and the fear of that alone should go some way towards stamping it out.
Mr Kipling
04-05-2014, 11:17
I would agree with what Frank says regarding Stan. I just never think of him as being a trader. Whatever he comments with lacks any sense of commercial bias even when it's regarding DACs.
At times there does seem like there is bit too much trade activity, and it can be a tad annoying. But I just ignore it. I use "New Posts" and if there are trade postings, I just pass over them. In all the time I have been here I think I have looked at 2 trade postings. One was for MCRS's DIY Mains Cable Kits and the other was his Freebies thread.
The problem for me, which others have mentioned, is the grey area when traders comment on "normal" threads, for what can appear to be other reasons. It doesn't appear to happen that often, or perhaps it's in the threads I don't tend to read.
At times there does seem like there is bit too much trade activity, and it can be a tad annoying. But I just ignore it. I use "New Posts" and if there are trade postings, I just pass over them.
That's a good approach, Stephen. I'd advocate that others, who feel the same way, do the same. It's dead simple! :)
Marco.
Techno Commander
04-05-2014, 14:30
I appreciate "trade comments". Especially if said trade representative engages with the community, answers questions and takes the time to explain the what and why of their product.
Endless pimped sales threads, or you must but this latest CD tweakeroo type threads get somewhat annoying.
What would be interesting is to disseminate that poll and remove all the Trade member votes, as they would (I assume) vote positively - what would the result be then?
I guess Polls will be viewed differently, depending on if you are a glass half empty or half full personality, but that says to me there is a large section of the AoS membership who feel the balance has gone out of kilter.
On a positive note I have personally purchased from Stan, Mark Grant and David Wren and would do so again, as I have been very pleased with their service and also feel they have the balance right within the forum with their 'non-trade' contributions and they are IMO very valued members. Others don't have it right and I wouldn't buy as much as a screw or accept a free trial from them and would be happier if they weren't here, as they are too disruptive, manipulative and deploy to many cheap tactics to secure a sale. But that's just me, I expect there are many others who feel the direct opposite too this and the remainder probably couldn't care less.
How you administer this whilst keeping everyone happy is a tricky one, :scratch: but hats off to the boys in the back room for listening to the membership and for seeking a solution to what was becoming a rather unpleasant spectacle.
Buy yersen' a beer boys :cool:
Thanks, Tim. Your comments and support are appreciated.
We always listen to and take note of constructive feedback from our members (certainly those who exist here to be an asset to our community, not simply to take from it what they can get or use the content as a source of personal 'amusement'), which is why this section of the forum was created in the first place.
If we didn't care, or had a 'fuck you - you'll do as you're told' attitude, Critics Corner wouldn't exist - it's as simple as that. Let's not forget too, that its largely the members that make AoS the success that it is, so we *have* to listen, if our community is to continue to diversify and grow.
What would be interesting is to disseminate that poll and remove all the Trade member votes, as they would (I assume) vote positively - what would the result be then?
Not to mention if the trolling votes, against the existing trade presence, were removed from those with an agenda who share sympathies with the blinkered 'axe to grind' views expressed 'elsewhere' on certain other sites... ;)
Marco.
Not to mention if the trolling votes, against the existing trade presence, were removed by those with an agenda who share sympathies with the blinkered 'axe to grind' views expressed 'elsewhere' on certain other sites...
Marco.
Yes, its very apparent that there is a lot of 'indirect' influence from outside. I do read 'review' sites about AoS, but I'd like to think I'm intelligent enough to sort the wheat from the chaff, unfortunately there are some very gullible people that are open to suggestive manipulation, but that's life. I do feel obliged however to at least throw up a counter argument when I suspect foul play, which does often see me outnumbered, but I'm used to that as you know ;)
I'm one of the people who voted 'too much trade' not because I think there is but more as a warning shot that things should not be allowed to slide into that mire. Some of the trade are amongst the best members on here, Stan, Paul at RFC and hi-fi Dave, to name three, all contribute usefully and in the community spirit and do not chase sales. It is the community aspect that is the most important thing, the USP if you like. What I don't want to see is that descending into some sort of online shopping mall where you cant move without annoying people accosting you and trying to sell you a credit card or a conservatory.
I'm one of the people who voted 'too much trade' not because I think there is but more as a warning shot that things should not be allowed to slide into that mire.
That's pretty much exactly how I feel Martin. AoS would be a poorer community without it's valued Trade membership, some just need to wind their necks in a bit and if they behave honourably and with integrity, then by all means stick around and muck in with the rest. I'm all for that, they just need to learn where the line is and stick to the right side of it.
It is the community aspect that is the most important thing, the USP if you like.
That will always be our primary focus, Martin.
What I don't want to see is that descending into some sort of online shopping mall where you cant move without annoying people accosting you and trying to sell you a credit card or a conservatory.
No chance - that will NEVER happen! :nono:
Furthermore, the trade presence on AoS, whilst welcomed from good dealers and manufacturers, will always be secondary to input from ordinary enthusiasts.
Quite simply, while there will always be traders promoting their wares on AoS, and their number continually growing in line with the increase in overall forum membership (as one cannot have a situation where the amount of ordinary members registered continually increases, yet the number of traders existing remains static), I have no intention of turning AoS into a primary commercial venture, such as pfm and Wigwam have now become (for the justifiable reasons of their respective owners).
Firstly, I simply don't need to go down that road, as I earn more than enough money in other areas, for all my needs, and most importantly, it would go against the original vision the other founding members and I had for the site at its inception, not to mention my own principles. Therefore, rest assured that AoS will remain primarily a forum for audio enthusiasts and music lovers to communicate with each other in the homely, friendly and mutually respectful environment AoS has become renowned for :)
Marco.
Personally, I'd go along with a majority of the feedback so far. I think that if a trader wishes to sell, then that should be kept to the trade area, simple as that, no exceptions. If I fall foul of that inadvertently or otherwise, I'd fully expect to be reminded of the forum rules and because I am mindful that this is a an active and friendly community first and foremost. It would spoil things for all of us if general threads fill up with trade ads. That rarely happens though, lets be honest about that. Recent events have highlighted sensitivities about how components are discussed but most people are grown up enough to make their own minds up about things without resorting to unpleasantness. There are plenty of other forums which major in unpleasantness which should remind us just how lucky we are to be members of a tolerant, balanced and informative hifi forum in which people can actually hold views and speak without school-yard bullies coming out of the woodwork at every end in turn. In fact, I am amazed that some of those other hifi forums haven't driven off more of their more decent-minded members. AoS may not appeal to every hifi enthusiast but at least standards of behaviour are generally commendable and grown up.
Hifi seems to bring out the best and the worst in people. We all, occasionally, need to remind ourselves that "it's only hifi" and that there are far more important things in life to really worry about. The community balance here has seen a visible shift in attitude over the past few months and there have been a few comments which tend to paint all traders with the same brush, which is both unfair and pre-supposes wrong-doing without exception. It's really quite sad when that happens as there are a number of trade account holders here who regularly contribute in a positive manner unrelated to sales, who have been about for many years and who have helped a lot of people both through the forum and behind the scenes. Decent and honest traders still do exist thank goodness and it would be both a sad thing and a mistake to contemplate alienating those people.
I am grateful for the way in which the balance is maintained here at AoS and long may that continue.
Marco, just to follow up a previous post, its not so much what the trade do in their own patch that puts me off but the inevitable spillover onto other threads which then often leads to a row over how people review their wares. This in turn leads many of the other posts on separate threads to fall off the radar and as such an interesting point or a relevant question may go unanswered. Myself I've started a few threads and wondered why everyone was ignoring me lol. I might well be a boring git but everyone's more likely distracted by the fireworks surrounding a new product the trade guys have put out.
I wish I could offer you a solution but I'm stumped, generally the trade are OK, some are great.
Hi Rich,
Thank for clarifying what you meant earlier. I see where you're coming from, matey, and steps have now been taken to reduce the likelihood of that occurring in future :)
Marco.
Marco, just to follow up a previous post, its not so much what the trade do in their own patch that puts me off but the inevitable spillover onto other threads which then often leads to a row over how people review their wares. This in turn leads many of the other posts on separate threads to fall off the radar and as such an interesting point or a relevant question may go unanswered. Myself I've started a few threads and wondered why everyone was ignoring me lol. I might well be a boring git but everyone's more likely distracted by the fireworks surrounding a new product the trade guys have put out.
I wish I could offer you a solution but I'm stumped, generally the trade are OK, some are great.
There have been three threads started by you, that didn't receive any replies. Sadly that is the nature of on-line fora: it's not personal and can happen to any of us. Since joining, I have started 10 threads that went un-noticed and/or unanswered.
Members can become distracted by all sorts of controversial topics, not necessarily those caused by trade members (or indeed by threads on cables).
Please don't let your un-noticed threads put you off posting Rich.
Regards
Thanks for the chance of input.
I've voted 'Too much Trade Content'. However for me the key phrase is 'Trade Content'. I think we are lucky that so many trade members are present on the forum and I for one have benefited from their input many times. I think the forum mods have done a decent job because what counts as Trade Content is not always black and white.
As a consumer, I have no problems with the issue being raised. I guess it is is important for the trade members themselves to have a level playing field.
There have been three threads started by you, that didn't receive any replies. Sadly that is the nature of on-line fora: it's not personal and can happen to any of us. Since joining, I have started 10 threads that went un-noticed and/or unanswered.
Members can become distracted by all sorts of controversial topics, not necessarily those caused by trade members (or indeed by threads on cables).
Please don't let your un-noticed threads put you off posting Rich.
Regards
I was only saying that to illustrate really, you have to admit though the rest of the forum gets pretty slow when there's a fireworks thread running.
Firebottle
07-05-2014, 06:31
I voted for trade content just right but I personally find myself in a quandary.
As I'm sure most of you on here know I make a valve phono preamp going under my user name.
Apart from the personal satisfaction I have from having designed it, I was/am suitably impressed with the ethos on AoS of dedicated followers of achieving better sound reproduction, with achieving good VFM at times as a bonus.
From a hobbyist standpoint I wanted to offer an inexpensive route to using a valve preamp, for the benefit of AoS members.
The numbers certainly won't be large and as I've stated before I won't be making my fortune from this exercise, so a trade account is not really suitable.
The question is where does the hobbyist builder now stand under the new rules?
:cool: Alan
Hi Alan,
That's a very good point. Thing is, such is the nature of this matter, that there will always be grey areas, in terms of how the new ruling is implemented - and also the opportunity (as ever) to exploit things for one's own ends.
I guess it boils down to folk (traders and members alike) being honest and not taking the piss, along with observing and respecting the guidelines which have just been implemented - and so future product reviews will be monitored and moderated on that basis.
Your own input to date shows no signs of any inappropriate behaviour, so there's no reason now for that to change, is there? ;)
Marco.
Ali Tait
07-05-2014, 09:28
Aye, Alan raises a good point. I've just sent his loaner phono stage off to Paul Stewart. Where do people stand about posting their impressions of it?
For me, the greater trade issue is that many make no contribution at all other than to update advertorial or make 'now available' statements. Whilst there is nothing wrong with either, I think it is a shame that a more insightful contribution isn't made.
Those traders that are prone to a bit of 'off-topic' promotion tend to do so in a very clear and obvious manner which you can then choose to ignore or act upon armed with the knowledge of where that info originated. What is significantly more insidious is the quality you find on some other forums where trade members misrepresent themselves as 'the average man' and create (or post on existing threads) with the sole purpose of promoting product.
As far as I am aware, I only know of one rep who who admits to being a member of the UK forums - obviously this is not the case. Considering that it's not difficult for a popular thread to have more hits than the entire UK circulation of a hi-fi mag, most of the UK reps will have signed up to one (if not all) of the forums (but surely they are too busy - in their dreams).
For my part I have decided not to retail anything any more and so expect to have trade status revoked.
Aye, Alan raises a good point. I've just sent his loaner phono stage off to Paul Stewart. Where do people stand about posting their impressions of it?
Hi Ali,
My response to Alan pretty much covers it, in conjunction with what I've outlined in post #41 (linked to below), and has been discussed on that thread since then (all of which in due course will be condensed into one post in the Noticeboard and Critics Corner, which will then act as the new ruling): http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?32174-Slic-Innovations-Eclipse-C-Interconnect-at-MCRU&p=549119#post549119
It's essentially a question of members and traders exhibiting honesty and integrity at all times, which from now on is something we'll be monitoring very closely. In that respect, don't be surprised to be asked by someone in future (a normal member or a moderator), when a review is posted, whether or not that product has been bought yet by the reviewer, or if not, what exactly the situation is in that respect.
The answer given will determine how the review progresses from that point or not.
Marco.
I don't think you have to end up buying something to make the review legit - in fact, I don't see the relationship.I suppose if you give a rave review to something you can afford and end up not buying it, that's a bit questionable.
I wrote up my thoughts on the Arkless modified Cambridge phono (though I don't know if he still does these). I thought it pretty good but not as good as my own phono and so didn't buy one (said as much in my write-up). I did a big write-up on the Ryan Sound Lab boards for Naim pre-amps - when I wrote the review I didn't own them but I did buy them later on.
Indeed, Mark. The main thing we'll be preventing in future is traders, who run established businesses, deliberately (in a premeditated way) sending out products to members for review with the intention of generating false publicity for those products and/or their businesses.
If products are to be reviewed on the forum it must be because the reviewer concerned is doing so out of his or her own volition, where no form of personal gain is sought by them, or indeed provided by the seller of said products.
That's it in a nutshell :)
Marco.
Indeed, Mark. The main thing we'll be preventing in future is traders, who run established businesses, deliberately (in a premeditated way) sending out products to members for review with the intention of generating false publicity for those products and/or their businesses.
OK, well I see how they would be seeking to generate publicity - but how is that false publicity? What if the person it has been sent to writes that it's crap? In the magazine world manufacturers always seek to have their equipment reviewed by 'sympathetic' reviewers; for example, you wouldn't send out a new cable to someone who regularly stated that cables cannot make a difference and such a person is very unlikely to invest in a new cable to try for themselves.
If products are to be reviewed on the forum it must be because the reviewer concerned is doing so out of his or her own volition, where no form of personal gain is sought by them or indeed provided by the seller of said products.
If someone sends me something to try (Les W did this to me recently) without me asking for it, if I bring myself to write about it it is at my own volition. Things would be different if it came with a note saying something like 'write something nice and I'll pay you' (which it didn't I may add) - but I don't see how you can police against outright dishonesty.
OK, well I see how they would be seeking to generate publicity - but how is that false publicity? What if the person it has been sent to writes that it's crap?
It would come under that category if there existed an agenda of some sort, i.e. either to 'big up' the product concerned, for some form of personal gain, benefiting the seller or reviewer, or to intentionally attempt to damage the reputation of the product concerned and/or the business of a trade competitor. It applies to both sides of the coin.
If someone sends me something to try (Les W did this to me recently) without me asking for it, if I bring myself to write about it it is at my own volition. Things would be different if it came with a note saying something like 'write something nice and I'll pay you' (which it didn't I may add) - but I don't see how you can police against outright dishonesty.
Indeed. In that instance, were the same thing to happen again, when you posted the review, you'd be asked about the details that surrounded your reasons for reviewing the product, and if all was acceptable within the guidelines of the new ruling, you'd be allowed to continue with the review.
As I've said already, Mark, there are grey areas and people will have to be taken largely at their word. However, at least now we've issued a warning shot across the bows, as it were, to anyone thinking of abusing the forum in order to service an agenda.
I'm not sure there's anything further to add, lest we risk going round in circles, discussing ever more 'what ifs'. It's pretty clear what is required from now on. Therefore, I would ask that everyone respects the reasons for introducing these measures and abides by the new ruling, which will later be posted in its entirety in the appropriate area of the forum.
Marco.
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