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fungke
06-07-2009, 14:15
Hi Everyone,

Just been reading this thread on Computer Audiophile over the weekend. Has anybody come across this software, or indeed heard it in action?

http://www.computeraudiophile.com/content/Amarra

Seems fairly expensive. $1500 for just for a piece of software :confused:

Forgive me for being sceptical but I think some might be mistaking better for different. Anyway, be interesting to hear your thoughts.

Gazjam
06-07-2009, 15:47
Some discussion about it over the pond...

DaveK
06-07-2009, 16:40
Hi Everyone,

Just been reading this thread on Computer Audiophile over the weekend. Has anybody come across this software, or indeed heard it in action?

http://www.computeraudiophile.com/content/Amarra

Seems fairly expensive. $1500 for just for a piece of software :confused:

Forgive me for being sceptical but I think some might be mistaking better for different. Anyway, be interesting to hear your thoughts.

Hi Y'all,
Hope this is not tpoo far off topic but reading further about Amara led me to a PC bit-perfect (claimed) playback system called XXHighEnd.

http://www.phasure.com/index.php?topic=112.0

Has anyone heard of it/ tried it (demo mode freely available)/any opinions on it.
Sounds good to me but what's that worth on this forum ?? :lolsign:
Cheers,

StanleyB
06-07-2009, 17:15
There are DACs and now you got the software that does upsampling. One cannot stop punters from blowing their money on anything of their choice, irrespective of whether it is good or bad. But an understanding of how a signal gets from being a standard signal to an upsampled one might help in understanding what it is that is being done to the original signal before it ends up as an upsampled one.

The question is: what does upsampling do and are the results a true copy of the original or an interpretation of the original sound? From all the papers and examples I have found mentioned on the net, they all appear to be an interpretation, and not a true reflection. If upsampling is acceptable, then tone and loudness controls are no less evil as a solution.

Gazjam
06-07-2009, 22:58
NOT the closest approach to original sound.....

Spur07
07-07-2009, 07:48
They've been talking about Amarra on the Naim forum - some members are currently running it with decent results, but nobody knows exactly how it works. I'm going to apply for a demo myself but first I think I need to get an ilok account. Yes, the price is ridiculous - I wont be buying no matter what it does, but the concept of working with itunes is good imo. Apparently there are other software companies about to enter the market, one reportedly priced around the $200-400 mark. Hang tight because I can see this becoming quite a bloated market and I can't see Amarra lasting for very long.

fungke
07-07-2009, 09:12
I glad that others share my scepticism. I'd rather hear what the studio engineer/artist intended than somebodies interpretation or enhancement of it.


The question is: what does upsampling do and are the results a true copy of the original or an interpretation of the original sound? From all the papers and examples I have found mentioned on the net, they all appear to be an interpretation, and not a true reflection. If upsampling is acceptable, then tone and loudness controls are no less evil as a solution.

Hi Sensimilia,

This is what I don't understand. The source material is mastered or presented at a particular rate and depth, i.e. 44.1Khz 16bit. If upsampling, that additional information has to come from somewhere or are the electronics just filling in the gaps with zeros?

To me it makes sense for everything along the chain to be the same. So in my case the source material was ripped at 44.1 16, my (computer) audio settings are set that way so there's no adjustment happening up or down.

StanleyB
07-07-2009, 10:17
In the case of upsampling the extra data is plucked out of the air and added to the existing data. So the extra data may or may not have been present in the original analogue signal. But some/many people seem oblivious to this. When I read customer reports about 'hidden information that is unleashed' by their upsampling DAC, I can't but offer a wry smile. That hidden information may not have been part of the original material in the first place. Imagine playing a Natasha Bedingfield on an upsampling DAC and hearing her brother sing instead....

Stan

fungke
07-07-2009, 10:46
In the case of upsampling the extra data is plucked out of the air and added to the existing data. So the extra data may or may not have been present in the original analogue signal. But some/many people seem oblivious to this. When I read customer reports about 'hidden information that is unleashed' by their upsampling DAC, I can't but offer a wry smile. That hidden information may not have been part of the original material in the first place. Imagine playing a Natasha Bedingfield on an upsampling DAC and hearing her brother sing instead....

Stan

Thanks Stan. That's exactly the reason I didn't buy the DAC Magic. I'd rather have my bits delivered 'like for like' :eyebrows:

lovejoy
07-07-2009, 11:59
Completely agree with Stan. You only have to try the different bit-depth and sample rate output settings on a Mac to get an idea of how easily you can completely ruin a signal.

I've heard people use the analogy of upscaling a standard DVD to an HDTV to get better picture, and whilst I agree that upscaling does work, it's not because there's suddenly more information there improving the picture, it's merely that you've matched the resolution of the DVD player to the native resolution of the display, so the analogy is quite useless to DACs.

Gazjam
07-07-2009, 13:14
They've been talking about Amarra on the Naim forum - some members are currently running it with decent results, but nobody knows exactly how it works. I'm going to apply for a demo myself but first I think I need to get an ilok account. Yes, the price is ridiculous - I wont be buying no matter what it does, but the concept of working with itunes is good imo. Apparently there are other software companies about to enter the market, one reportedly priced around the $200-400 mark. Hang tight because I can see this becoming quite a bloated market and I can't see Amarra lasting for very long.

There will be an open source equivalent pretty soon I'd imagine...

Spur07
07-07-2009, 15:19
Your probably right Gazjam.

I'll try anything out of curiosity. It's no good slamming something when you haven't even tried it. If ever I get my hands on the demo I'll post my thoughts on the results.

Gazjam
07-07-2009, 16:15
exactly.

If theres a demo Id try it too.
Cant really comment on something I haven't heard.

Without a description of what the software DOES (and no-one seems able to explain - not even the UK Distributor!):confused: it comes down to listening I guess?

This products picking up a fair bit of interest elsewhere by the way.
Some good discussions on it.

Gazjam
07-07-2009, 16:16
Your probably right Gazjam.

I'll try anything out of curiosity. It's no good slamming something when you haven't even tried it. If ever I get my hands on the demo I'll post my thoughts on the results.

Its on Bittorent of you want it.
(dont ask for link - not my cuppa tea)

A demo would be good. :)

StanleyB
07-07-2009, 16:19
I feel sorry for the people who let go of their senses and put their trust in an added level of tampering with the audio signal.
No wonder that vinyl is still going strong amongst those of us who are old enough to know how to adjust the weight on a tonearm.


Stan

trailer
07-07-2009, 17:26
I've heard people use the analogy of upscaling a standard DVD to an HDTV to get better picture, and whilst I agree that upscaling does work, it's not because there's suddenly more information there improving the picture, it's merely that you've matched the resolution of the DVD player to the native resolution of the display, so the analogy is quite useless to DACs.

If the DAC is a 24bit/96Hz then by upsampling aren't you just matching the resolution of the DAC in the same way that upscaling does to the display?

lovejoy
07-07-2009, 17:53
If the DAC is a 24bit/96Hz then by upsampling aren't you just matching the resolution of the DAC in the same way that upscaling does to the display?

Well no, the DAC itself will work at its best with whatever bit-depth/sample frequency you feed it. Just because you feed a 24/96 capable DAC with 16/44.1, it won't underperform due to a hardware limitation - Displays on the other hand will, as a display panel is optimised to work at only one resolution and will lose focus and detail at ALL other resolutions. Therefore matching your source to the display's native resolution works well.

purite audio
07-07-2009, 17:55
exactly.

If theres a demo Id try it too.
Cant really comment on something I haven't heard.

Without a description of what the software DOES (and no-one seems able to explain - not even the UK Distributor!):confused: it comes down to listening I guess?

This products picking up a fair bit of interest elsewhere by the way.
Some good discussions on it.

I have posted an explanation of some aspects of Amarra on HiFi Wigwam.

DaveK
07-07-2009, 17:57
No wonder that vinyl is still going strong amongst those of us who are old enough to know how to adjust the weight on a tonearm.


Stan

Hi Stan,
I'm certainly old enough :lolsign: to remember but unfortunately never was involved enough to worry about such things. As a soon-to-be owner of a SL1200 (no laughing Marco !! ;)) which will have a properly set up headshell and cartridge (or a least it will if Marco really knows what he is talking and posting about (;)), can you point me in the direction of idiot proof instructions to adjust said weight, please?
This request, although addressed to Stan, is not restricted to him - I'll take as much guidance as I can get - why go for the best kit you can afford and not aim to get the best out of it?
Thanks for any and all responses.
Cheers,

Gazjam
07-07-2009, 19:07
I have posted an explanation of some aspects of Amarra on HiFi Wigwam.


Sorry Keith, hadn't noticed that old chum.

StanleyB
07-07-2009, 19:13
I have posted an explanation of some aspects of Amarra on HiFi Wigwam.
That puts it out of reach of some of us to comment and question. I knew there was a catch;).

trailer
07-07-2009, 19:25
Well no, the DAC itself will work at its best with whatever bit-depth/sample frequency you feed it. Just because you feed a 24/96 capable DAC with 16/44.1, it won't underperform due to a hardware limitation - Displays on the other hand will, as a display panel is optimised to work at only one resolution and will lose focus and detail at ALL other resolutions. Therefore matching your source to the display's native resolution works well.

I understand that. But my point is that the DAC may well work "better" if its getting the full monty fed into it? Firing on all cylinders in analogue terminology.

lovejoy
07-07-2009, 19:30
I have posted an explanation of some aspects of Amarra on HiFi Wigwam.

Thanks for that.

I've applied to download a demo version to give it a try, but having read that, I'm wondering if it's a case of better the devil you know...

If it does bring such improvements then it effectively creates a two tier system. As it stands, I can enjoy my music library, Spotify, Radio Paradise, BBC iPlayer etc. all to a very high standard. If, as has been said, everything sounds flat by comparison with it switched off, then that renders over 50% of my music collection and obviously all the radio stations and websites 'flat'.

So do I download it hoping that my rather skeptical view of their claims is correct, or do I leave well enough alone?

I bet I'm not the only one thinking this either.. Who opened this can of worms? :doh:

purite audio
07-07-2009, 19:37
Gary Hi, no problem, I would have preferred Sonic had and would publish more details of exactly how it works, Sonic Studio aren't a 'foo' company they have just finished archiving to hi-res all of Universal's back catalogue, the down loadable demo is pretty useless as Amarra cuts out every thirty seconds, if you are interested I can lend you a full version, it won't make your compressed files any worse, but it will make your uncompressed files sound even better. Keith.

Spur07
07-07-2009, 19:44
Keith

I was going to get in touch with you regarding the Amarra demo - I wasn't sure what the ilok business was all about, but as it cuts out every 30 seconds would you consider loaning me the full version?

Spur07
07-07-2009, 19:50
"If theres a demo Id try it too.
Cant really comment on something I haven't heard."

Gaz

Have you tried 'Cog' or 'Play'? Both are quite simple media players but they definitely have a different presentation. Unfortunately Cog distorts some of my audio files - not sure there isn't some kind equalization going on there.

purite audio
07-07-2009, 20:21
Keith

I was going to get in touch with you regarding the Amarra demo - I wasn't sure what the ilok business was all about, but as it cuts out every 30 seconds would you consider loaning me the full version?

Spur Hi, yes of course, Amarra only plays uncompressed files, if not iTunes takes over, downloading is simple and there shouldn't be a problem with the licensing of the dongle, there is a new batch arriving this week, just let me know your address, regards Keith.

Spur07
07-07-2009, 20:35
Thanks Keith.

I've sent you PM

Spur07

purite audio
07-07-2009, 21:02
Spur Hi, I haven't received anything, drop me a line through my website, Keith.

Spur07
07-07-2009, 21:24
Keith

Just sent it again via Purite

Ta. spur07

Primalsea
08-07-2009, 10:50
I thought the main idea of up sampling or over sampling was to increase the effective sample rate. This then means that you dont need the brickwall filters at 20Khz which have a considerable effect on audio frequencies, instead much gentler filters far away from the audio band can be used. It then becomes a lesser of 2 evils.

StanleyB
08-07-2009, 14:11
I thought the main idea of up sampling or over sampling was to increase the effective sample rate. This then means that you dont need the brickwall filters at 20Khz which have a considerable effect on audio frequencies, instead much gentler filters far away from the audio band can be used. It then becomes a lesser of 2 evils.
That was the theory at one stage. But the marketing people have taken over the asylum and great efforts have been made to give upsampling a bit of respectability.
Upsampling is however nailed to a specific top end frequency, which in many cases is 192KHz. But if you take an oversampling DAC of say 8X, then the sampling rate of say a 44.1KHz audio CD signal would be 352.8KHz. It isn't rocket science to then see that the 8X OS frequency is even higher up the bandwidth. Of course, if you take the more complex 64X OS DACs, then things get very interesting...

STan

lovejoy
08-07-2009, 14:12
Well, this afternoon, I managed to get a demo of Amarra downloaded to my Macbook Pro and spent a couple of hours listening to it vs. standard iTunes through my 7520....

Well, I guess that you really need one of their recommended DACs in order to get the benefits of the software as so far, I've not heard a jot of difference. At first, I thought things sounded a lot cleaner with Amarra switched on, but the more I listened, the less I could pick out any difference..

Hmmmm

Rowlf
29-06-2012, 13:36
Thought I would revive this aged old thread.

Downloaded the Amara Hifi and tried it out with the Bushmaster Dac playing Apples Lossless files that I ripped from my CDs. I could not tell any difference between the Amara and standard iTunes. I did not experiment with any 24/192 files as I do not have them on my computer.

Lossless files on Macbookpro-->iTunes Amara Hifi-->optical out-->Bushmaster DAC-->HD600

Wonder if you guys are getting different results?

Beechwoods
29-06-2012, 17:17
I find it pretty amusing that Amarra's big sales pitch at the moment is Gapless Playback. Woo. That's pretty unusual in audio software these days. I wonder when basic players like iTunes will catch up :rolleyes:

Werner Berghofer
29-06-2012, 17:32
Nick,


I wonder when basic players like iTunes will catch up

gapless playback has been available in iTunes for ages.

Werner.

Stratmangler
29-06-2012, 17:35
Nick,



gapless playback has been available in iTunes for ages.

Werner.

The OP knows that already Werner.
He was being ironic ;)

Beechwoods
29-06-2012, 17:56
Indeed :rolleyes:

Spur07
29-06-2012, 18:44
Thought I would revive this aged old thread.

Downloaded the Amara Hifi and tried it out with the Bushmaster Dac playing Apples Lossless files that I ripped from my CDs. I could not tell any difference between the Amara and standard iTunes. I did not experiment with any 24/192 files as I do not have them on my computer.

Lossless files on Macbookpro-->iTunes Amara Hifi-->optical out-->Bushmaster DAC-->HD600

Wonder if you guys are getting different results?

I tried the basic demo version couple of months back on my Apple G5/Buffalo and came to same conclusions as you - couldn't here any difference.

Rowlf
29-06-2012, 20:04
Thanks guys. Nothing wrong with my ears then :)

Gazjam
29-06-2012, 21:24
Dont know bout Mac's (smelly little things) but I know that in the PC arena different software players can sound very different, despite having similar claims.

Jriver, Memory play betters Foobar, JPlay an all the others.
Software CAN make a difference, but I'm saying that having HEARD the differnece, like you guy's have with Amarra.

Have a mate who's an Apple guy, swears by Pure Music..cheaper and Better sounding (according to him) than anything else Apple wise....

f1eng
01-07-2012, 20:17
Dont know bout Mac's (smelly little things) but I know that in the PC arena different software players can sound very different, despite having similar claims.

Jriver, Memory play betters Foobar, JPlay an all the others.
Software CAN make a difference, but I'm saying that having HEARD the differnece, like you guy's have with Amarra.

Have a mate who's an Apple guy, swears by Pure Music..cheaper and Better sounding (according to him) than anything else Apple wise....

Music players are so cheap in high end terms I bought them all. Amarra is my favourite, with Pure Music second, but it is well worth noting that the league table order fluctuates depending on which has had a recent software updates, IME.

mwheelerk
07-07-2012, 14:23
Has anyone been checking out the Audivrana Plus beta version 1.3.9.3? It returns Integer Mode functionality to the Lion OS and I think sounds awesome. I used Pure Music for most of two years but was discouraged by the loss of Integer Mode when I upgraded to Lion. I compared PM to Amarra and thought it was a wash as far as sound quality (each was a little different from the other but not necessarily better) but Amarra's need to pre-load playlist was too clunky and a non-starter for me. Right now Audivrana Plus with Direct Mode, Integer Mode and System Optimizer engaged is the best sounding here. I recommend taking a look with the free demo.