PDA

View Full Version : What makes a great amplifier?



Covenant
03-07-2009, 12:01
When I consider the equipment I own and have owned I realise I have never really listened to an outstanding amplifier.
In your experience which ones do you rate as truly great and why?

aquapiranha
03-07-2009, 13:18
depends what you mean by outstanding! Some would say amps are merely different as opposed to better, and that cost for example in simply not a good indicator of performance. I really couldn't say which is the 'best' amplifier I have heard because I havent heard it in my system, in my home. Listening to an amp at a dealers for example in a different environment and in a different system is folly...

YMMV

Stratmangler
03-07-2009, 13:37
It really depends on whether the amplifier works properly in the context within which it is used.

I've recently heard a 1W SE valve amp be totally convincing and musically engaging driving a pair of enormous horn speakers.

This amplifier would fail dismally in pretty well every other context, yet just sounds so completely right with the coffin sized speakers in tow.

Chris:)

speakers-1989
03-07-2009, 13:39
I like my Quad 405s very much. Because they have a nice musical sound, and valve like midrange.

Covenant
03-07-2009, 16:49
I really dont like listening in a dealers as I cant relax and the environment is unfamiliar. If I do go in a hifi shop its to look at the aesthetics of the equipment.
Most equipment I have purchased has been 'blind' but based on positive reviews. I bought a Velodyne DD15 on its reputation and have never regretted it but the differences between amplifiers are subtle I think and I imagine it might take a few weeks to know if you have made the right choice or not.

alb
03-07-2009, 16:50
What makes a great amplifier

I do.

Well fairly good anyway.:)

Covenant
03-07-2009, 16:53
I do.

Well fairly good anyway.:)

Thats what they call a teaser!
Spill the beans-type, from scratch or kit. Lots more detail please!

Stratmangler
03-07-2009, 16:59
I do.

Well fairly good anyway.:)

Nice one Al :lolsign:

The 1W SE amp I referred to was Colin's 6em7 running the Sachikos built for Andrew up in Scotland.

Chris :)

Primalsea
03-07-2009, 20:06
I was thinking about this the other day. You should never consider the amp on its own but instead think of the amp and speakers as a single entity. The load of the speakers have a huge impact on the amp.

Stratmangler
03-07-2009, 20:20
I was thinking about this the other day. You should never consider the amp on its own but instead think of the amp and speakers as a single entity. The load of the speakers have a huge impact on the amp.

Precisely !

Up until a few weeks ago I would never have thought that 1 watt would have been of much use for driving anything.

Yet here was a system that kicked ass and snorted fire (when needed) in a major way, and did so with consumate ease.


Chris:)

WikiBoy
03-07-2009, 23:02
The one that provides the cleanest window for the music to play through.

Adds nothing, takes nothing away.

brainz2000
03-07-2009, 23:21
I am totally rethinking my position on this since a scrap NAD 3020 sounds better than the much more expensive Cyrus 3i amp I have driving the Royd Sapphires I recently acquired to replace my AE 100s.

I'm actually using the 3i as a pre amp to the 3020 at the moment to give me the convenience of remote control and the fantastic sounstage and bass that the NAD 3020 can produce ...

So, how can I describe what is good ....

it is about pace and rhythm, combined with natural sound and sound stage (3d presence)

I'm looking for valves now to see what they are like ... :-)

Just my 2p!

tim

Dr. Flicker
04-07-2009, 03:51
Audio products have always been consumer-driven, and I'm afraid the average consumer is no longer interested in "hi-fi". The mighty amp producers of yesterday have either closed shop, tried to compete in the much smaller "high end" market, or god forbid, lowered themselves to the consumer-driven market by making chinese made home theatre products or digital file playback devices.

I believe the most amazing amps are indeed being made right now, but like everything else, has mondo-beyondo stratospheric prices the average hi-fi enthusiast could never dream of affording.

The 70's/80's seemed to be the golden age of high end, where no-holds-barred design, build and sound quality was available at many price points. A lot of this stuff is still around, and available for a song, and sound as good or better than most of the better stuff made today.

I've sadly watched so many of the great hi-fi shops close down here in Toronto, or simply switch to selling home theatre products to stay in business...the great Bay Bloor Radio's entire second floor, which used to be home to sound rooms full of fabo high end products...is now dedicated to Bose. How effing sad is that?

Convenience seems to be what drives everything, and if you ask me, we have been devolving in just about everything for a while now. Forget music and music playback...that's a complete bust. Look at the telephone...we don't even talk on it any more....we text, where the simple act of spelling, grammar and punctuation are basically meaningless.

Ok...enough of the rant (for now).

The amp I've been dreaming about ownig for a little while now is one of the original Classe Audio David Reich designed amps...the DR2, DR3 or DR9 from the 1980's. David Reich (one of the great amp geniuses) wanted the sound of valves, with all the advantages of SS. He succeeded.

mulane
04-07-2009, 07:22
I hope this is not too off-topic but...recently I saw some Harmon Kardon 775 monoblocks on ebay. As the seller was a local dealer I went down to his shop with the trusty Pioneer A400 I'd been using for years to drive my KEF transmission lines, curious to see if the monoblocks were an improvement.

Well, hooked up to the dealers Tannoy floorstanders the 775s absolutely wiped the floor with the A400 - they were so staggeringly superior that I could not believe it. How could I have been so stupid to believe the little A400 could be anything but a cheap budget amp? I went home crestfallen and hooked up the A400 again to the KEFS. Well perhaps I am totally delusional but they again sounded superb - lacking a bit of ultimate power but superb. A good example of system synergy? Or was the dealer secretly slipping something in the mix when I wasnt looking?;)

Anyway I was outbid on the 775s and bought a Rotel RB980-BX instead which again sounds superb and powerful hooked up to the A400 as a preamp. But a question still hangs over my head - would the 775s still be that much better?:doh:

Mr. C
04-07-2009, 08:34
Very simple, the ability to get out of the way and just leave the music.
Both solid state and valves can do this.

Marco
04-07-2009, 08:49
Can't argue with that :)

I'd also add impeccable reliability, and also serviceability into the mix.

Marco.

Covenant
04-07-2009, 09:15
I am glad this thread hasn't polarised into the valves and ss camps.
Any one got a view on kit amplifiers?

smithy
04-07-2009, 09:56
Dont know what makes it great but I rather like the sound of my MC2 650.

NRG
04-07-2009, 10:17
I am glad this thread hasn't polarised into the valves and ss camps.
Any one got a view on kit amplifiers?

Yes, they are a great way to get a really good sounding amp for far less cost than an equivalent commercial offering. Not only will you take great pride and satisfaction out of building one you'll also learn a heck of a lot as well. Highly recommended for anybody half competent with their hands. :smoking:

alb
04-07-2009, 12:56
Not only will you take great pride and satisfaction out of building one you'll also learn a heck of a lot as well

Absolutely.
Of course most people with a bit of patience can complete one successfully, because there is usually a support forum dedicated to the kits in question.
Another great advantage of a kit or scratch build, is that if anything does go wrong with it later on, then you will have a good idea how to repair it.

Haselsh1
04-07-2009, 13:14
There is one pre/power combination that still reminds me of the first time I heard it and that was around 1983. It was the Musical Fidelity Pre/Dr Thomas combo. At that time it was the clearest most pure sounding amplifier I had ever heard. Maybe now it's more a case of rose tinted glasses but I still have very fond memories of hearing those items. Apart from that, the finest sound I have ever had myself was a WAD 300B push pull with a KLP1 pre amp.

swampy
04-07-2009, 17:12
Very simple, the ability to get out of the way and just leave the music.
Both solid state and valves can do this.

Yes, IMHO the amp should not really colour the sound in any way. It should be neutral and have grip and control of the speaker it is driving be it by tube or SS. However most amps do add some colour esp many tube amps which is why people like them. Lots of even harmonic distortion, fat warm sound or accentuated mid range to name a few. Nothing wrong with that if it is what you like and suits your ear / room / speakers etc...

I have gone full circle myself, starting with SS, then having various tube amps, both push pull and SE over several years and finally back to SS for the power amp but a tube pre to add a little colour !! Both types have their merits but the tube purists might think SS have little or no merits. :nocomment:

Also price is not always a factor. Sometimes a system just hits the right synergy and room match by a bit of luck usually.

Marco
04-07-2009, 17:33
Yep, I agree. I'm not 'wedded' to valves for life. I'm only using them because at this current moment in time, to my ears, the valve amps I have are head and shoulders above any solid-state amp I've heard *so far*.

However, like you've done, I may end up going full circle. Who knows what the future holds? I'm open-minded so nothing is ever written in stone :)

The solid-state amps I'd like to hear properly are the big Class A designs from the likes of Luxman and Usher, as I believe Class A when done well is where SS technology is 'at'. I'm also hopeful one day that I can hear some NVA amps in someone's system, as I suspect that musically they would also be up my street - eh, Richard? ;)

Marco.

electric beach
07-01-2011, 16:18
Nice one Al :lolsign:

The 1W SE amp I referred to was Colin's 6em7 running the Sachikos built for Andrew up in Scotland.

Chris :)

Chris, which Colin do you refer to?

Now that I have Sachikos I would like to try an SE flea watt amp. Was this an amp Colin built himself?

I'm considering investing in an Fi-X, which would have to be commissioned unheard, but if you already know of a magic combination.... :eyebrows:

Ali Tait
07-01-2011, 16:38
Hi Steve,
He was referring to Colin Topps, well known on WD and Audio-Talk for his great speakers. If you like SE, a very good quality low power jobbie using top notch parts would be a very good match indeed to the Sachikos IMHO. The 6EM7 sounds great,though if it was me, I'd be tempted by a 45, one of my favourite valves. Triodes are where it's at! If you are interested in having such an amp built for you, the man to talk to is Nick Gorham. He could build you something as good or better as anything available commercially at any price for a lot less, though if you want the best it still wouldn't be cheap, yet still have great SPPV.

I have no connection etc. and nothing to gain, Nick is just a friend. If you'd like to speak to him, PM me and I'll send you his email address. He's a top bloke and very approachable.

electric beach
08-01-2011, 14:35
Thank Ali.

The one amp that I've heard in several system is the Levardin IT.

The tone, transparency, frequency balance just sounded "right" in every combination. If an amp/speaker combination delivers the presentation that I favour and everything sounds real and natural, then the presentation gets out of the way and I'm focused on the music. It doesn't matter to me if the amp has a sonic character (meaning it doesn't have "no sound" :scratch:); if it delivers that result then I'm connected. The lavardin gave an engaging presentation that laid the musianship out before me to analyse or get carried away with.

technobear
08-01-2011, 22:16
What makes a great amplifier?

A passionate designer and an absence of bean counters ;)

Haselsh1
08-01-2011, 22:54
A passionate designer and an absence of bean counters ;)

Simplicity methinks.

alfie2902
09-01-2011, 00:29
Hiroyasu Kondo.

ReggieB
09-01-2011, 00:38
I've only recently discovered the pleasures of listening to music via headphones, and I am at a fairly early stage of the upgrade process. That is, I have just upgraded from my first headphone amp. So, I'm not in the 'great' stratosphere, but the process has highlighted for me, what I think raises an amplifier to status of 'good'.

I've had my Bravo headphone amp for the best part of a year and it has been fine. No nasties in the form of annoying buzzes at certain frequencies. No boxiness. No subtle nasties that make the amp difficult to listen to for an hour or more. Just a perfectly pleasant reproduction of the music presented to it, and a distinct upgrade over connecting my headphones directly to the output from my PC and/or the cheap USB DAC I use with it.

However, I knew I could upgrade and get better.

I'd been think of upgrading to either a Gram Slee amp or even trying a small amp I'd read a few good reviews of (Neco soundlabs (http://shop.ebay.co.uk/neco_soundlab/m.html) battery powered unit). However, I spotted a Creek OBH 11 on ebay at a price I couldn't resist. So for the last week I've been listening to the Creek instead of the Bravo amp in my office set up, and doing so has highlighted to me what makes good hi-fi for me.

The thing that, I think, the Creek gives me that the Bravo doesn't is space around the performer. With the Bravo I hear the music, but with the Creek I don't just get the music, but I can also hear the acoustics of the room in which the musicians are playing. Individuals instruments and individuals are more obviously separated from one another. I'm not just listening to music: I'm listening to a performance by a group of individual artists. It is much easier for me to pick a single performer and just follow them. With a soloist, I feel more with them, because I can hear the space and room acoustics about them. It makes it feel much more like I am listening to real people and performances.

The track that really brought it home to me was "I am not a robot" from 'Marina and the Diamonds' album 'The Family Jewels'. The start is just Marina singing on her own. I've always enjoyed this track via the Bravo, but with the Creek I suddenly don't just hear her voice, but also the air around her. It all sounds so much more real.

So for me, what makes a good amplifier is one that doesn't just reproduce music, but also the space around and between the individual performers and instruments.

Neil McCauley
05-03-2011, 01:16
Okay. Here’s my take on this. It works for me and my customers. This is not say or even imply it will work for everyone though.

Stage #1 = identifying the maximum spl that the system, their listening room, their neighbors, sundry pets and relatives and they themselves will tolerate. Play one complex track for about 90 secs or so. No longer than this. Any genre will do.

Stage #2 = playing the same track again but a few notches down in spl and ask prospect if they notice any loss of detail and any change in tonal balance. Nothing else. Don’t get sidetracked by depth of field, image stability.

Stage #3 = progressively repeating this until they do hear both a reduction in detail and change in tonal balance.

Stage #4 = is elimination. In a clear and clean race between competitive pre/powers or integrated units, the amplification which demonstrates the least changes at the lowest viable spl is usually the one my prospect buys.

That’s it.