View Full Version : So what's the punishment for Apostasy?
montesquieu
11-04-2014, 21:30
Hmmm ... as reported here I had some 'vintage' style corner Canterburys built, to a highly tweaked design by Paul Coupe of Reference Fidelity, constructed by Russ Collinson.
Having come from being a Tannoy fan of many years - Lancasters, followed by GRFs, Lockwood Major and lastly Autograph cabinets, all with 15in Monitor Golds - I went down the 12in Monitor Gold route when moving into a smaller listening space. Obviously!
Paul told me at the time I'd get a better bass response with HPDs but being a Gold lover I knew better right? So I had to eat humble pie when I tried some HPDs and (in this cabinet at least) got an extra octave in the bass. Not only that the trade-off on sweetness was from leaving the Golds behind was minimal. (That does for theory no 1).
Paul also recommended I go solid state as the HPDs needed more juice and a higner damping factor. Got to be nonsense, I thought, as vintage Tannoys prefer valves, everyone knows that? I was running a 28w 300b PP interstage amp that had easily seen off more than a dozen other amps from EAR 509s to assorted KT88s stereo and monoblock amps, to 2A3 specials. With Golds at least. (While ANY SS amp from Sony ES to Krell simply didn't cut the mustard in comparison).
Well with HPDs it's a different story. I tried an Audio Synthesis Passion - 40w class A PP SS - and while it was an obvious gain mismatch with my valve pre, it did something quite interesting. Next up was a Lyngdorf SDA2175. And what a difference. Blew away the 300b PP over the whole frequency range, without sacrificing a jot of musicality. The bass articulation is something to experience. These 'vintage' look speakers sound like modern Canterburys - right up with the 21st century.
I still wonder what a high power valve PP amp with highish damping factor would do with the HPDs ... but it would have to be pretty special to beat the 200w Lyngdorf semi-digital (I'll not attempt to explain that one but seems like a good compromise in engineering terms - one Shuggy of this parish has been preaching to me for years but which i didn't 'get' until I heard his system last autumn).
So what's the lesson, in the end? No 1 that the short gap between 60s Golds and 70s HPDs is in fact a massive chasm - there's far more going on than trading a few db of efficiency, rather that the bass response is transformed in the later speaker to the point where the vintage approach is best leaving being (with a heavy heart initially for me, but there it is). No 2 that just because a particular combination (300b and Golds) is magical doesn't mean it extends to later, less efficient versions of the same concept (HPD specifically). Most of all it tells me to assume nothing in any situation and experiment with my ears engaged and not a brain full of prejudice and misconception.
Anyway for the all important speaker-amp interface at least I'm a convinced apostate. (I now have Tannoys that might even convince Jerry). I already had this challenged personally last year by the Aurorasound Vida phono stage which was more valve-like than my own very high quality Longdog mm phono stage. I still havent heard a SS DAC that compared to the Audio Note but perhaps that's only a matter of time.
What happens to those who lose their (valve) religion? :scratch: Eternal damnation or just an occasional look of pity? (though to be fair all my sources are still valve).
Anyway my thanks to Paul for pushing me in a very interesting direction. And an open welcome to Tannoy fans who want to hear what i've just experienced. I'm planning another Classical Music Day in the summer so hopefully I'll get some more feedback.
http://i1181.photobucket.com/albums/x440/montesquieu61/cant-1_zps27591d8f.jpg (http://s1181.photobucket.com/user/montesquieu61/media/cant-1_zps27591d8f.jpg.html)
Hi Tom, been there, done that myself! I once had an all-valve system and am now a confirmed solid state man. Welcome to the club!
But seriously, I'm glad you've landed on speakers that you love as I was puzzled at your swapping around back a year or two ago. Very happy for you. Now then, perhaps another visit to have a listen might be on the cards?
The Grand Wazoo
11-04-2014, 22:07
So what's the punishment for Apostasy?
Good question!
I'd guess a lot of folks will be thinking "What's the meaning of Apostasy?"!
walpurgis
11-04-2014, 22:24
Well here's my two bobs worth. Having owned 12" Golds and HPDs and regardless of amplification, I have to say that in any kind of normal domestic listening environment, I've found the ten inch HPD 295A superior to both the 12" units in all audible respects. It has a cleaner and clearer mid and smoother top (despite the similar tweeter) and a better defined bottom end, possibly due to a better pistonic action without breakup from a better cone stiffness ratio and a lighter cone allowing better transient response. Normally only found in the small Eaton cabinet, this unit begs for a big box to show what it can do.
By the way my non HPD, Tannoy Cheviot II speakers are driven by Class A solid state most of the time and sound even better than the HPD or Gold.
Ali Tait
11-04-2014, 22:24
Witch! Burn 'im!! :-)
walpurgis
11-04-2014, 22:35
Witch! Burn 'im!! :-)
And, Hi to you too Ali! :)
Ali Tait
11-04-2014, 22:42
Was meant for Tom, but never mind, the Witchfinder General will always find you out.. :D
Stratmangler
11-04-2014, 22:52
Witchsmeller Persuivant, surely?
fYJZqJezjz4
Ali Tait
11-04-2014, 23:00
:lol:
Lol! Nice one, Tom... Those speakers look superb - and no doubt sound it, too! :respect:
I think you've hit the nail on the head with your description of MGs with valves and HPDs with solid-state: in word it's all about SYNERGY.
I still wonder what a high power valve PP amp with highish damping factor would do with the HPDs...
At some point I'm going to have to bring down my TD Copper amp (currently fitted with cryo'd KT120s, but soon to be fitted with cryo'd KT-150s) and see what happens, in that respect. I was down your way recently when Speedy Steve was polishing the ebony armboard on my Techy, but by the time I'd had a listen to his new horns and got the job done on the T/T, there simply wasn't time to do anything else before I had to shoot back home. However, we'll defo arrange a sesh soon!
One of my mates, Ian Walker, whom I think you know, has a pair of Canterburys, which of course use HPDs, and he's used all sorts of high quality solid-state amps with them, and none of them have got near to achieving, sonically and musically, what the Copper amp has done.
I have to say that I'm not a massive fan of SE valve amps, as for me they put too many of their eggs into the one basket, and although I enjoy 300B P/P designs, I always feel that 300Bs possess a somewhat soft and lumpy bass (a trade-off for their gorgeous midrange), and lack ultimate grip, something which high-power valve P/Ps don't, particularly those fitted with KT120s.
Like you say, it's all about getting the right combination, and so I wouldn't rule out falling even more in love in future with a top-notch high power P/P valve amp... ;)
Anyway, enjoy your current 'sandboy status'. When I come down at some point I'll also bring my modified Sony DAC with me, and we'll see if it can show your Audio Note a trick or two, and further increase that status, lol. Until then, enjoy the music! :cool:
Marco.
Ali Tait
11-04-2014, 23:06
Well I could say something about polishing and horns, but that'd be a bit obvious! :-)
Trust me, it was on my mind when I was writing it! :bum:
Marco.
montesquieu
12-04-2014, 00:07
Lol! Nice one, Tom... Those speakers look superb - and no doubt sound it, too! :respect:
I think you've hit the nail on the head with your description of MGs with valves and HPDs with solid-state: in word it's all about SYNERGY.
At some point I'm going to have to bring down my TD Copper amp (currently fitted with cryo'd KT120s, but soon to be fitted with cryo'd KT-150s) and see what happens, in that respect. I was down your way recently when Speedy Steve was polishing the ebony armboard on my Techy, but by the time I'd had a listen to his new horns and got the job done on the T/T, there simply wasn't time to do anything else before I had to shoot back home. However, we'll defo arrange a sesh soon!
One of my mates, Ian Walker, whom I think you know, has a pair of Canterburys, which of course use HPDs, and he's used all sorts of high quality solid-state amps with them, and none of them have got near to achieving, sonically and musically, what the Copper amp has done.
I have to say that I'm not a massive fan of SE valve amps, as for me they put too many of their eggs into the one basket, and although I enjoy 300B P/P designs, I always feel that 300Bs possess a somewhat soft and lumpy bass (a trade-off for their gorgeous midrange), and lack ultimate grip, something which high-power valve P/Ps don't, particularly those fitted with KT120s.
Like you say, it's all about getting the right combination, and so I wouldn't rule out falling even more in love in future with a top-notch high power P/P valve amp... ;)
Anyway, enjoy your current 'sandboy status'. When I come down at some point I'll also bring my modified Sony DAC with me, and we'll see if it can show your Audio Note a trick or two, and further increase that status, lol. Until then, enjoy the music! :cool:
Marco.
Hi Marco
You'd be really welcome. I have a huge respect for Anthony's work having owned a chinese-based KT88 amp that he breathed on and transformed. Unfortunately I don't have £4-5k sitting around to commission a copper amp though I suspect that's what these beauties deserve.
In the meantime the Lyngdorf is working a lot of magic here.
cheers
tom
Mr Kipling
12-04-2014, 00:22
So what's the punishment for Apostasy?
Good question!
I'd guess a lot of folks will be thinking "What's the meaning of Apostasy?"!
Peasants.
Surely everyone knows it's a grammatical expression.
jandl100
12-04-2014, 06:48
Hmmm ... as reported here I had some 'vintage' style corner Canterburys built, to a highly tweaked design by Paul Coupe of Reference Fidelity, constructed by Russ Collinson....
(I now have Tannoys that might even convince Jerry)......
Haha! - best of luck with that! :D
Anyway my thanks to Paul for pushing me in a very interesting direction. And an open welcome to Tannoy fans who want to hear what i've just experienced. I'm planning another Classical Music Day in the summer so hopefully I'll get some more feedback.
Another classical day would be great - fine and interesting music, and good company, even if the end transducer may not be to my taste! :)
Regarding the RFC-driven apostasy -- being a bit of a chum of Paul @RFC, I was on the receiving end of head-hitting-against-wall emails from Paul during the trials and tribulations of the journey ... "I told Tom that wouldn't work, why doesn't he listen to me .... " :lol:
But yep, my very strong reccie is that if you insist on listening to the bloody things Tannoys, then Paul really knows his onions about how to get the best out of them! :thumbsup:
:lol:
Tom has indeed "seen the light" and I am delighted that he has found out the potential of the superb 12 inch HPD married with good solid state amplification. They thrive on watts and a decent damping factor despite the sensitivity and very few valve amps match well with them (there are exceptions...I'm sure that the Copper amp would sound great, EAR 519 monoblocks are also a great match if a little scarce these days). Trouble is with perceptions of Tannoys that there is so much misinformation chucked about and so few decent cabs about for them that many get completely the wrong impression of their potential. Those particular cabs cannot be compared to the 70's era production Canterburies. They're larger, tuned for best response with the 12 inch HPD (12 golds simply don't have the bass response and are best used in sealed cabs), the tuning is different, the construction is different, the crossovers are better and the grilles are removable. As to cone break up that Geoff mentioned, if the crossover is properly specified then there is very little discernible break up at all from the 12 inch HPD. The MGs are more likely to suffer from this. Having heard the 10 inch, I prefer the 12. More effortless scale and bass and to my mind, no difference (at all) in HF response.
Everyone will have their favourites but one thing I have learnt is never to judge any Tannoy without first listening as the comibinations and synergies vary hugely. Having heard the brand new £10K Kensingtons and knowing what Toms will be capable of (they sould be similar to the Fidelios but with slightly less bass depth) then they will be better then the new Kensingtons (which personally I do not like as I found them rather coarse). That's the sort of benchmark.
Hi Marco
You'd be really welcome. I have a huge respect for Anthony's work having owned a chinese-based KT88 amp that he breathed on and transformed. Unfortunately I don't have £4-5k sitting around to commission a copper amp though I suspect that's what these beauties deserve.
In the meantime the Lyngdorf is working a lot of magic here.
Nice one, mate. We'll defo arrange a sesh soon.
Yeah, I know you liked how Anthony modded what was originally a version of the Puresound A30 - that one was nice, but the Copper amp is a whole different ball game. They're £5k to hand-build from scratch, and if they had an Audio Note badge, they'd cost several multiples of that!
I've not heard anything from Lyngdorf (although I trust Hugo's ears, as he knows a good sound when he hears one), so it would be interesting to experience its talents, too! :cool:
Marco.
Hi Paul,
Those particular cabs cannot be compared to the 70's era production Canterburies.
Not sure which cabs you're referring to, but just to clarify, my mate's Canterburys are 90s vintage and have 15" HPDs (3889 drivers, if memory serves me correctly).
Having heard the brand new £10K Kensingtons and knowing what Toms will be capable of (they sould be similar to the Fidelios but with slightly less bass depth) then they will be better then the new Kensingtons (which personally I do not like as I found them rather coarse).
Interesting... They must've changed the design a bit then, as I've listened numerous times to Anthony's Kensingtons, which he bought brand new three years ago, and coarse they certainly aren't. Essentially, they're voiced very similar to my Lockwoods, but with less scale.
Mind you, they weren't being driven by solid-state amplification, but rather by his superb Soul 30W monoblocks: http://www.tubedistinctions.co.uk/soul_amps_1.htm
Marco.
I had that Lyngdorf amp driving my speakers for a while. It is good.
I'd bring my amps round as you did ask a while ago but it means a transit van. Last attempt with KevinF's AN/Es was the vowed last time they travel, though.
Gotta be worth trying some high power valve efforts. I find solid state is a trickster every time than can last for quite a while - but no matter what I always revert to the 211s.
You'll get over the SS sickness in a while:)
Hi Paul,
Not sure which cabs you're referring to, but just to clarify, my mate's Canterburys are 90s vintage and have 15" HPDs (3889 drivers, if memory serves me correctly).
I'm referring to the 100 litre corner Canterburys for the 12 inch MGs Marco
Interesting... They must've changed the design a bit then, as I've listened numerous times to Anthony's Kensingtons, which he bought brand new three years ago, and coarse they certainly aren't. Essentially, they're voiced very similar to my Lockwoods, but with less scale.
Mind you, they weren't being driven by solid-state amplification, but rather by his superb Soul 30W monoblocks: http://www.tubedistinctions.co.uk/soul_amps_1.htm
Marco.
They have changed. Tannoy have tweaked crossover value/components and changed the supplier of the cone production (something to do with QC as they were starting to find things like crushed hemp seeds or something in the supply of cones). Imho the earlier ones like Anthony has are preferable, as are the Turnberry SEs. I didn't like what I was hearing from the new ones at all. Sorted HPDs in decent cabs are much more to my tastes.
RE Canterbury design Marco; Neither your mate, nor anyone else for that matter, will have what Tom has. His design is better than the original factory models. It's properly designed, using finite element analysis to determine thickness of panels, number, thickness and positioning of internal bracings and special attention has been paid to damping. The tuning is also different. They may look superficially similar, but that's where the similarity ends. Cabinetry was never Tannoy's strong point until more recent times where it has improved.
Ah, that explains it then. Thanks for the clarification. These days, Tannoy seem to insist on buggering about with stuff that works perfectly well! :doh:
Anthony's Kensington SEs sound superb, and are one of the few modern Tannoys I could live with.
Sorted HPDs in decent cabs are much more to my tastes.
Lol... Perhaps until you hear a pair of 15MGs, in sorted cabinets, driven by valve amplification that has just as much 'grip' as a quality SS amp, but does the 'valve thing' too? You *can* have the best of both worlds... ;)
Despite using HPDs, Ian's Canterburys undoubtedly sound best with valve amplification - but that's valve amplification that has both 'balls' and finesse in equal measure!! :eyebrows:
Marco.
anthonyTD
12-04-2014, 09:25
Wow,looking good Tom, :)and i am sure they sound every bit as good as they look, i hope you have many, many hours of listening bliss, with what ever amp you decide on long term...
Hmmm ... as reported here I had some 'vintage' style corner Canterburys built, to a highly tweaked design by Paul Coupe of Reference Fidelity, constructed by Russ Collinson.
Having come from being a Tannoy fan of many years - Lancasters, followed by GRFs, Lockwood Major and lastly Autograph cabinets, all with 15in Monitor Golds - I went down the 12in Monitor Gold route when moving into a smaller listening space. Obviously!
Paul told me at the time I'd get a better bass response with HPDs but being a Gold lover I knew better right? So I had to eat humble pie when I tried some HPDs and (in this cabinet at least) got an extra octave in the bass. Not only that the trade-off on sweetness was from leaving the Golds behind was minimal. (That does for theory no 1).
Paul also recommended I go solid state as the HPDs needed more juice and a higner damping factor. Got to be nonsense, I thought, as vintage Tannoys prefer valves, everyone knows that? I was running a 28w 300b PP interstage amp that had easily seen off more than a dozen other amps from EAR 509s to assorted KT88s stereo and monoblock amps, to 2A3 specials. With Golds at least. (While ANY SS amp from Sony ES to Krell simply didn't cut the mustard in comparison).
Well with HPDs it's a different story. I tried an Audio Synthesis Passion - 40w class A PP SS - and while it was an obvious gain mismatch with my valve pre, it did something quite interesting. Next up was a Lyngdorf SDA2175. And what a difference. Blew away the 300b PP over the whole frequency range, without sacrificing a jot of musicality. The bass articulation is something to experience. These 'vintage' look speakers sound like modern Canterburys - right up with the 21st century.
I still wonder what a high power valve PP amp with highish damping factor would do with the HPDs ... but it would have to be pretty special to beat the 200w Lyngdorf semi-digital (I'll not attempt to explain that one but seems like a good compromise in engineering terms - one Shuggy of this parish has been preaching to me for years but which i didn't 'get' until I heard his system last autumn).
So what's the lesson, in the end? No 1 that the short gap between 60s Golds and 70s HPDs is in fact a massive chasm - there's far more going on than trading a few db of efficiency, rather that the bass response is transformed in the later speaker to the point where the vintage approach is best leaving being (with a heavy heart initially for me, but there it is). No 2 that just because a particular combination (300b and Golds) is magical doesn't mean it extends to later, less efficient versions of the same concept (HPD specifically). Most of all it tells me to assume nothing in any situation and experiment with my ears engaged and not a brain full of prejudice and misconception.
Anyway for the all important speaker-amp interface at least I'm a convinced apostate. (I now have Tannoys that might even convince Jerry). I already had this challenged personally last year by the Aurorasound Vida phono stage which was more valve-like than my own very high quality Longdog mm phono stage. I still havent heard a SS DAC that compared to the Audio Note but perhaps that's only a matter of time.
What happens to those who lose their (valve) religion? :scratch: Eternal damnation or just an occasional look of pity? (though to be fair all my sources are still valve).
Anyway my thanks to Paul for pushing me in a very interesting direction. And an open welcome to Tannoy fans who want to hear what i've just experienced. I'm planning another Classical Music Day in the summer so hopefully I'll get some more feedback.
http://i1181.photobucket.com/albums/x440/montesquieu61/cant-1_zps27591d8f.jpg (http://s1181.photobucket.com/user/montesquieu61/media/cant-1_zps27591d8f.jpg.html)
Ah, that explains it then. Thanks for the clarification. These days, Tannoy seem to insist on buggering about with stuff that works perfectly well! :doh:
Anthony's Kensington SEs sound superb, and are one of the few modern Tannoys I could live with.
Lol... Perhaps until you hear a pair of 15MGs, in sorted cabinets, driven by valve amplification that has just as much 'grip' as a quality SS amp, but does the 'valve thing' too? You *can* have the best of both worlds... ;)
Despite using HPDs, Ian's Canterburys undoubtedly sound best with valve amplification - but that's valve amplification that has both 'balls' and finesse in equal measure!! :eyebrows:
Marco.
Hi Marco
Yes, I've heard 15's plenty of times. To get the best from them they need 200 to 250 litre cabinets imho. For most domestic settings, 12 inch HPDs give nothing much away to 15 inch MGs and have the advantage that they are happy in 125 to 160 litre cabinets. Ditto, I think that you need to listen to either Tom's Canterburys or My Fidelios before you draw final conclusions. Both may shatter some illusions! For ultimate scale, 15 inch HPDs have the edge. I like both. I don't buy the valve argument. It's not about valve or SS, it's about the requirements of a matching amplifier, period. HPDs need a damping factor, I would argue, of at least 15 or higher and are happiest with 50 watts or more, hence SS works best imho with HPDs. MGs, seem happy with either but you do have to pick and choose very carefully as the matching is vital to get the best from them as you know and I'm sure, knowing Anthony, that his Copper amps are very good indeed with the MGs.
julesd68
12-04-2014, 10:30
Hi Tom, could I ask what pre you are using with the Lyngdorf?
Ammonite Audio
12-04-2014, 11:38
To my ears, the Lyngdorf switching amplifier technology gives the sweetness and liquidity of valves, with the punch and control of good solid-state. I'm glad that Tom likes the SDA-2175 and trust that he's appreciating the reduction in daily electricity consumption!
Hi Marco
Yes, I've heard 15's plenty of times. To get the best from them they need 200 to 250 litre cabinets imho. For most domestic settings, 12 inch HPDs give nothing much away to 15 inch MGs and have the advantage that they are happy in 125 to 160 litre cabinets. Ditto, I think that you need to listen to either Tom's Canterburys or My Fidelios before you draw final conclusions. Both may shatter some illusions! For ultimate scale, 15 inch HPDs have the edge. I like both. I don't buy the valve argument. It's not about valve or SS, it's about the requirements of a matching amplifier, period. HPDs need a damping factor, I would argue, of at least 15 or higher and are happiest with 50 watts or more, hence SS works best imho with HPDs. MGs, seem happy with either but you do have to pick and choose very carefully as the matching is vital to get the best from them as you know and I'm sure, knowing Anthony, that his Copper amps are very good indeed with the MGs.
Indeed, but the point is, damping factor or not, as I feel there's a danger here of getting too bogged down by what measurements say 'should happen', Ian's HPD-based Canterbury's sound best with his Copper amp, so equally, as you will appreciate, I don't buy the argument that HPDs automatically work best with SS amps. If that were the case, Ian would be using one, instead of his Copper amp ;)
As ever in hi-fi, the proof of the pudding is in the listening, not the readouts on test equipment...
I remain forever open-minded to anything in audio, and I'm sure if I heard your Fidelios or Tom's Canterburys I'd be very impressed indeed - I couldn't fail to be, as such speakers are right up my alley way!
However, illusions may equally be shattered if you heard some 15 MGs, inside a sorted (is it 210 or 250-litre cabinets the Lockwood majors have?) driven by a powerful and 'grippy' sounding P/P valve design, such as the Copper amp, as correct me if I'm wrong, although you've heard 15MGs many times, you haven't heard them yet with an amplifier of that type?
Anyway, it's all about experiencing new things, as with audio, we're ALL on a constant learning curve! :)
Marco.
kininigin
12-04-2014, 12:41
To my ears, the Lyngdorf switching amplifier technology gives the sweetness and liquidity of valves, with the punch and control of good solid-state. I'm glad that Tom likes the SDA-2175 and trust that he's appreciating the reduction in daily electricity consumption!
This is why i've gone down the route i have! 4 perfectly matched SS amps to my drivers (5 including the sub) for the control and other factors of course and with the valve pre adding the the magic of what valves can bring! Get this combo right using quality componants and you can get fantastic results imo!
Indeed, but the point is, damping factor or not, as I feel there's a danger here of getting too bogged down by what measurements say 'should happen', Ian's HPD-based Canterbury's sound best with his Copper amp, so equally, as you will appreciate, I don't buy the argument that HPDs automatically work best with SS amps. If that were the case, Ian would be using one, instead of his Copper amp ;)
As ever in hi-fi, the proof of the pudding is in the listening, not the readouts on test equipment...
I remain forever open-minded to anything in audio, and I'm sure if I heard your Fidelios or Tom's Canterburys I'd be very impressed indeed - I couldn't fail to be, as such speakers are right up my alley way!
However, illusions may equally be shattered if you heard some 15 MGs, inside a sorted (is it 210 or 250-litre cabinets the Lockwood majors have?) driven by a powerful and 'grippy' sounding P/P valve design, such as the Copper amp, as correct me if I'm wrong, although you've heard 15MGs many times, you haven't heard them yet with an amplifier of that type?
Anyway, it's all about experiencing new things, as with audio, we're ALL on a constant learning curve! :)
Marco.
I've heard many Tannoys Marco in many different cabinets driven by many different amps. I've designed a fair few Tannoy based speakers now too. I hadn't mentioned measurements but had mentioned the specs which indeed work very well with HPDs. That's my recommendation if anyone asks me, and I do happen to believe that SS is the best way to go with HPDs for some very simple technical reasons and because I like the sound of the combination. There are exceptions but only where damping factor is high enough. "Measurements" and listening are not mutually exclusive so why keep driving a wedge between them? ;) I do have a pair of ears and use those too :lol:
I am under no illusions whatsoever, but to keep banging on about 15 inch MGs at the exclusion of any other configuration is just doing something like the 12 HPDs a disservice until you hear them Marco, and I'm quite sure that you haven't listened to them done this way...or have you? I am not bogged down at all by what measurements say. I speak from considerable experience and knowledge of Tannoy drivers and cabinets, thats all. As to your last question, the answer is yes. I have heard Lockwoods, Yorks, GRFs, Westminsters and other large implementations of the 15MGs, all pretty much driven by valve amps of some description of other. I've also heard Turnberrys driven by Anthony's Copper amp and that was a very gutsy sound too. In all honesty, my preference is for 12 inch HPDs. It's not a matter of which one is "best" as that's a meaningless comparison for different rooms, set ups and tastes. Each to their own! It would be boring if we all liked the same things.
I am under no illusions whatsoever, but to keep banging on about 15 inch MGs at the exclusion of any other configuration is just doing something like the 12 HPDs a disservice until you hear them Marco, and I'm quite sure that you haven't listened to them done this way...or have you?
Hehehehe... I only 'bang on' about 15" MGs to balance out your 'banging on' about 12" HPDs and SS amps - just to help keep it real! :lol:
The only reason I brought up measurements was because you were mentioning damping factors, and don't get me wrong, I appreciate why that is relevant to the discussion, especially to someone such as your good self. However, for me, as a mere end user of product, I couldn't give a toss about what damping factor an amp has *if*, regardless of a supposed 'technical mismatch', my ears were telling me that it sounded superb, which is most certainly the case with Ian's Canterburys.
The fact is, all the SS amps he's used with them so far have sounded pants compared with his Copper amp, so I'm sure you'll appreciate why neither he nor I are concerned with the technicalities, only about what we actually hear with music :)
The only 'damping factor' that concerns me, is whether my underpants will sustain the flow from any 'wee accidents' that might occur, after the fright of being pinned to the wall by thunderous low-end wallop, whilst listening to some Tool, at gig-pounding levels with the Copper amp, on his Canterburys or my LMs!! :D
Nope, I haven't heard 12" HPDs of any description, driven by valve or SS amps, so that's something I'd like to rectify at some point.
Marco.
anthonyTD
12-04-2014, 14:31
While we are on the subject ;)
Damping factor is often a very miss used and usually miss understood term when one is trying to promote the merits of either Solid State, or Valve amp technology, for instance, a very well designed solid state amp will have an output impedance of around .02 of an ohm, if you run it into an 8 ohm load, then do the calculation ie; speaker impedance, divided by amplifier output impedance, in this case 8 divided by .02 gives a damping factor of 400
Now take a well designed valve amplifier which may have an output impedance of say .3 into an 8 ohm speaker, this gives a damping factor of 26
Now, most people would look at these figures and instantly make up their mind that more is better, and if these figures told the whole story, i would tend to agree, however, now lets look at the other elements of the amplifier and speaker combination that get over-looked almost Every time i see this comparison, and conversation come up, first of all, take most well designed multi driver speaker, the first thing the amplifier sees is the inductor fitted in series to the bass unit, lets say, this has a series resistance of for eg; .3 of an ohm, now add .3 to the already known .02 output impedance of the solid state amp, and you now get an achievable damping factor of 25 [ 8 divided by .32 = 25] now do the same with the valve amp ie; 8 divided by .6 = 13.3 as can be seen, both figures have changed, but more significantly the once impressive Solid State figures damping factor is only a fraction of what it was when combining just in line inductor resistance. Now if we take things even further, and add the speaker speech coil resistance into the equation, for example a typical 8 ohm speaker will measure approximately around 6.7 ohm DC resistance, so, if we add that figure in the same way as before to first’ the Solid State amp, then we have 8 divided by 7.02 = 1.1396, and do the same now with the Valve amp’ 8 divided by 7.3 = 1.0958. you will hopefully now get a better understanding of why damping factors quoted by amplifier manufacturers alone have little to no value as to how a particular amplifier/speaker combination will perform, and that there are many other factors involved as to why one technology may be superior on one set of loudspeakers over the other…
Also, all the equations above are based on the speaker impedance staying constant across the whole audio frequency range, which we know in reality is a pipe dream!
To be [I suspect] continued…
While we are on the subject ;)
Damping factor is often a very miss used and usually miss understood term when one is trying to promote the merits of either Solid State, or Valve amp technology, for instance, a very well designed solid state amp will have an output impedance of around .02 of an ohm, if you run it into an 8 ohm load, then do the calculation ie; speaker impedance, divided by amplifier output impedance, in this case 8 divided by .02 gives a damping factor of 400
Now take a well designed valve amplifier which may have an output impedance of say .3 into an 8 ohm speaker, this gives a damping factor of 26
Now, most people would look at these figures and instantly make up their mind that more is better, and if these figures told the whole story, i would tend to agree, however, now lets look at the other elements of the amplifier and speaker combination that get over-looked almost Every time i see this comparison, and conversation come up, first of all, take most well designed multi driver speaker, the first thing the amplifier sees is the inductor fitted in series to the bass unit, lets say, this has a series resistance of for eg; .3 of an ohm, now add .3 to the already known .02 output impedance of the solid state amp, and you now get an achievable damping factor of 25 [ 8 divided by .32 = 25] now do the same with the valve amp ie; 8 divided by .6 = 13.3 as can be seen, both figures have changed, but more significantly the once impressive Solid State figures damping factor is only a fraction of what it was when combining just in line inductor resistance. Now if we take things even further, and add the speaker speech coil resistance into the equation, for example a typical 8 ohm speaker will measure approximately around 6.7 ohm DC resistance, so, if we add that figure in the same way as before to first’ the Solid State amp, then we have 8 divided by 7.02 = 1.1396, and do the same now with the Valve amp’ 8 divided by 7.3 = 1.0958. you will hopefully now get a better understanding of why damping factors quoted by amplifier manufacturers alone have little to no value as to how a particular amplifier/speaker combination will perform, and that there are many other factors involved as to why one technology may be superior on one set of loudspeakers over the other…
Also, all the equations above are based on the speaker impedance staying constant across the whole audio frequency range, which we know in reality is a pipe dream!
To be [I suspect] continued…
Spot on Anthony. I wouldn't argue at all with what you've said, but most valve amps I've seen partnered with Tannoys (except yours and a few others) have had a much higher output impedance than 0.3 ohms. Typically 1 to 4 Ohms in the case of most amps I've seen (and one or two that I've used myself). It's not the only thing that matters by a long chalk. The amount of negative feedback employed, the quality of the output trabsformers and a host of other things come into play and as you've mentioned, not least is the fact that most Tannoys have impedance curves like the Alps! In GENERAL terms, most reasonably high powered SS amps are a good match. Most run of the mill valve amps are not. I do not count yours to be a run of the mill design as I've already mentioned. Horses for courses.
julesd68
12-04-2014, 15:19
In GENERAL terms, most reasonably high powered SS amps are a good match. Most run of the mill valve amps are not. I do not count yours to be a run of the mill design as I've already mentioned. Horses for courses.
As you know Paul I've done a bit of experimenting with SS amps recently with my HPD's but have come back to my 120W hybrid amp for the time being. It is nearly a complete peformer for me, but more importantly I'm not sure I can better it without spending a lot of money that I don't have!
montesquieu
12-04-2014, 16:11
Hi Tom, could I ask what pre you are using with the Lyngdorf?
Using a Tram2, a DIY hifi supply design. Single DHT gain stage (currently 2A3s but ultimately will be using 45s). Needs very careful treatment to minimise microphony but that done, it's the best pre I've heard in a long time. Only about 6db of gain though so needs careful matching to get the most out of both pre and power amp.
anthonyTD
12-04-2014, 16:13
Exactly! :)
Spot on Anthony. I wouldn't argue at all with what you've said, but most valve amps I've seen partnered with Tannoys (except yours and a few others) have had a much higher output impedance than 0.3 ohms. Typically 1 to 4 Ohms in the case of most amps I've seen (and one or two that I've used myself). It's not the only thing that matters by a long chalk. The amount of negative feedback employed, the quality of the output trabsformers and a host of other things come into play and as you've mentioned, not least is the fact that most Tannoys have impedance curves like the Alps! In GENERAL terms, most reasonably high powered SS amps are a good match. Most run of the mill valve amps are not. I do not count yours to be a run of the mill design as I've already mentioned.
Horses for courses.
anthonyTD
12-04-2014, 16:29
One of the main points i guess i was trying to make was'''
A well designed loudspeaker drive unit should have enough built in internal damping to control itself realistically' without the need for high damping figured amplifiers.
Speakers that have been designed to handle more power ie; with heavier cones and suspension do indeed need more power to drive them, however, if they are damped correctly, via a combination of careful speaker drive unit' and cabinet design, then the damping factor of the amplifier to a degree' should be irrelevant.However, we know that speakers are far from perfect!
Often it is the case' When you have a well damped speaker, and a high damping factor amplifier, the damping becomes overwhelming, and the sound can be pinched, and lifeless, change one or the other' and each unit in its own right,can sound magical.:)
A...
Hi Paul,
Spot on Anthony. I wouldn't argue at all with what you've said, but most valve amps I've seen partnered with Tannoys (except yours and a few others) have had a much higher output impedance than 0.3 ohms. Typically 1 to 4 Ohms in the case of most amps I've seen (and one or two that I've used myself). It's not the only thing that matters by a long chalk. The amount of negative feedback employed, the quality of the output trabsformers and a host of other things come into play and as you've mentioned, not least is the fact that most Tannoys have impedance curves like the Alps! In GENERAL terms, most reasonably high powered SS amps are a good match. Most run of the mill valve amps are not. I do not count yours to be a run of the mill design as I've already mentioned. Horses for courses.
Indeed... And the 'factoid' to come out of this, is that Anthony doesn't make "run of the mill" valve amps, which should explain my comments about MGs and HPDs in that context... ;)
I wouldn't settle for using anything less!
Incidentally, I made a boo-boo earlier - I have heard 12" HPDs before, and I don't know how I could've forgotten: it was a pair of Devons, which got me into the whole Tannoy DC thing in the first place! They were deeply flawed (mainly because the drive units were too big for the cabinets), but there was something about them that made me catch the Tannoy DC bug...
Marco.
montesquieu
13-04-2014, 23:25
Interesting coda to this discussion. Had first listening session with the golden-eared lady tonight. Knowns nothing about hifi therefore has no preconceptions. She came down heavily on the side of the 300b amp. More musical in the high notes she says, more natural, more body lower down. So there. Seems journey not ended after all. Next step a valve amp with more watts to see how that does with the HPDs.
EAR 519 mono-blocks worked wonderfully with mine Tom. Rare as rocking horse poo though.
EAR 519 mono-blocks
One of the few valve amps ever to truly impress me: they sound quite solid state ;)
montesquieu
14-04-2014, 08:21
One of the few valve amps ever to truly impress me: they sound quite solid state ;)
I actually had a set of EAR 509s a bit. Bit boring with the Golds, I found, but I think better with the HPDs where the extra power will be useful.
I think the 519s are a different kettle of fish from the 509s, Tom.
montesquieu
14-04-2014, 09:02
I think the 519s are a different kettle of fish from the 509s, Tom.
Good point:doh:
montesquieu
14-04-2014, 09:02
I think the 519s are a different kettle of fish from the 509s, Tom.
Good point:doh:
Floyddroid
14-04-2014, 21:53
Anyone here using Tannoy D900's? Just wondered what amps people are using with these blighters?:)
Figlet108
20-04-2014, 14:43
I think the 519s are a different kettle of fish from the 509s, Tom.
Is that right? I thought they were balanced and rack mounted versions of the 509s for studios?
Is that right? I thought they were balanced and rack mounted versions of the 509s for studios?
That's what I thought, too. I believe the 'balanced' bit was only the connectors and input transformers, not the circuit. The 509s were a pretty lifeless match with my (modern) Tannoys. They worked much better with inefficient speakers, where they seemed to have something to work against ... more in the zone for which they were designed, maybe?
The really different kettle of fish were the 549s ... huge 200 watt monoblocks with more iron than the Titanic.
My mistake, I had thought the 519s were a different circuit. It's the 519 that I heard sounding muscular and superb some years ago.
Figlet108
21-04-2014, 20:41
Yes, muscular and superb is exactly how I would describe the 509/519 and certainly a massive upgrade to my previous SS amp.
I still use SS amps in other systems though.
As for the apostasy question I see no need to drive a wedge between SS and Tube amps. The more and varied kit we all experience for ourselves the better - it helps deflect the reality distortion fields that get projected by all of our egos towards other people, even if we don't intend it.
Anyway, in my experience apostasy usually leads to relief, peace and quiet :)
I already subscribe to the view (borne out by experience) that a great valve amp and a great solid-state amp approach each other in quality of sound. If you think about it, the closer each approaches the unattainable ideal, the closer they must approach each other.
montesquieu
21-04-2014, 21:49
I already subscribe to the view (borne out by experience) that a great valve amp and a great solid-state amp approach each other in quality of sound. If you think about it, the closer each approaches the unattainable ideal, the closer they must approach each other.
I understand why this should be the case but it isn't always what I've experienced.
Must say I'm still very much liking what this Lyngdorf does ... the wife's reservations are very much at the trivial end of things I have to say from my perspective (and relate to high treble - in fact I can barely hear what she's on about). But it has set off a quest into high power valve territory. Be interesting to see where this leads.
Let me know if you have another get-together as I'd love to hear the new system in operation.
jandl100
23-04-2014, 06:23
I believe that Tom has already threatened to have another Classical Bake Off day this year. :thumbsup:
I've owned EAR 509/ii monos. Yes, very muscular, but also not the highest rez in terms of detail or dynamic tracking. I kept them a while and used them with a few quite different speakers, but was glad to see them go in the end. A bit boring. Mine had the drool-worthy copper chassis. :drool: - which is probably why I hung on to them longer than I really wanted to! :)
jandl100
23-04-2014, 06:31
I already subscribe to the view (borne out by experience) that a great valve amp and a great solid-state amp approach each other in quality of sound. If you think about it, the closer each approaches the unattainable ideal, the closer they must approach each other.
That makes sense, logically.
But I agree with Tom that it isn't always borne out by my experience by any means. Thinking back on some high ticket amps I have owned - Krell, Chapter, Parasound, Chord, MF, Graaf, Jadis, EAR etc etc - all hugely different in presentation.
Even more so with speakers - the higher end you go, the more different they are!
Yep, my contentious contention is that quite often the higher end you go up the hifi ladder the more different and distinct the presentations you get. :)
I agree entirely when it comes to speakers.
Gordon Steadman
23-04-2014, 09:05
Strangely, the higher up the price range I have listened, the less I seem to like them. Maybe its just a function of having the Quads but I find things like Wilsons totally unmusical and strident as hell. I'm sure that modern speakers are biased toward impressive rather than musical. OK I'm sure there are exceptions but I haven't heard them.
jandl100
23-04-2014, 09:32
I'm sure that modern speakers are biased toward impressive rather than musical. OK I'm sure there are exceptions but I haven't heard them.
A lot of truth in that, Gordon. There are exceptions but many/most seem to follow that trend, imo.
Interesting. Magicos leave me cold, but I've heard Wilsons really sing and they're highly transparent.
If I'm honest about it the only thing about Wilsons I really like is the bass. Whilst they don't have the articulation available from big planar magnetic bass panels, when you crank them with masses of power, the bass output levels they can achieve is gobsmacking.
I'd be deaf with a pair in a relatively short space of time:)
Gordon Steadman
23-04-2014, 15:04
If I'm honest about it the only thing about Wilsons I really like is the bass. Whilst they don't have the articulation available from big planar magnetic bass panels, when you crank them with masses of power, the bass output levels they can achieve is gobsmacking.
I'd be deaf with a pair in a relatively short space of time:)
When I heard them, I thought I was at the cinema. The sound was exactly what you get with those 'orrid' Bose systems they use, all bloated bass and screaming treble. It was at Absolute Sounds if I recall correctly. They were driven by huge- and I do mean H U G E - Krell monoblocks and Cd player. The salesman seemed a little surprised when I asked to hear something a little more neutral, started blathering on about how they were the best they had blah blah blah and I left in order to protect what was left of my hearing.
In those days I could have afforded it too - times change.
Having owned both big Wilsons (Grand Slamm X's etc), if you like an 18 foot Eric Clapton they deliver in spades, impressive sounding Beatie's just zero involvement. Might as well have a pair of Atc 300 actives and a pair of Utopia subs job done less money.
However if you love the appeal of real sounding music, then Wilson's or Magico's are not going to cut the mustard (imho)
A correctly implemented pair of Grande's Utopia III's are far superior in this respect, or you can take the Pepsi challenge and try TAD makes your head spin sometimes with their ability to take to you the heart of the music.
Though speakers are possible the most personal audio purchase you will make, so it makes the most difficult to choose.
I reckon you have to be nice to them or they'll just sound shit. Piercing nasty treble is all so easy to achieve with them. Krells, I think, can be absolutely the worst partner for them.
I've heard them sound good with powerful class D amps and big ARCs. I've never liked them with Krells - ever - and I have heard various different models with various Krells over the years.
They really can sound good with the right supporting kit. Bloated, loose bass is not a Wilson feature. It might be a shit amp feature, but it certainly is NOT a Wilson feature.
Well Justin,
Be safe in the knowledge Krells and ARC's would be the last amplifiers I would use with them :lol:
Ultimately they fail to deliver basic musical involvement, what they do deliver is a massive open sound scape with a deep and very wide stage, respectable bass which is surprising given they are using Focal drivers :scratch:. By which Focal does that department much better.
As with any quality equipment having the right partnering engine department is equally important and there in lies the key to to part of the great audio puzzle.
I tried many amps on my Scintilla's over the years, in the end I gave up and built my own to truly deliver what I look for in a sound.
The big Krells drove them well, and handled the slightly difficult load of 1 ohm, they just did with a sledgehammer effect.
We had quite a few customers with monoblocked Evo2's these did a nice job and handled the low impedance well plus had a really infectious sound.
Where there's a generalisation there is probably an exception, and it may just be some of the Krell models would be OK. I tend to suspect the older KSA300 wouldn't be too bad at all.
You are right in my opinion, though. The Wilson's provide a more "mechanical" means of playback than most, and the mind is led more into the hi-fi like aspects of reproduction than the music itself. But it'd be unfair to say they are capable of doing some pretty impressive things.
Scintilla was obviously an awesome speaker (and still is for some who have tip top pairs, I'm sure), but Duettas love valve amps with power. I've tried countless SS amps on mine and I always end up at square one. Scintilla never afforded the luxury of at least allowing experimentation with valve amps apart from with some very unusual designs.
Have you still got them Tony or are they long gone? I'd love to hear a top pair sometime.
To be honest, Tony, I'd rather keep my Usher Be-20s than anything you've listed. They certainly better the JM Lab (Focal) Mezzo Utopias I had previously, which is why I upgraded.
I heard the KSA300 with Ushers... not bad, not bad at all:);)
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