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Labarum
30-06-2009, 08:03
There is an amusing article here about a boy surrendering his iPod for a week in favour of an old Walkman

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/8117619.stm

Beechwoods
30-06-2009, 08:31
Bah humbug!

It would have been nice if they'd given him a Walkman that cost the same as the iPod now costs. I think the result would have been quite different!

I will be demanding my licence fee back for this example of typical lazy BBC journalism!

Labarum
30-06-2009, 08:44
I was in the Falkland 20 odd years ago - one of the last troops to live in Port Stanley, before the new RAF Base opened.

I took with me a brand new Sony Walkman Pro and a clutch of metal tapes on which I had recorded output from my quite recently acquired Philips CD 204.

That Walkman was a lifesaver - kept me sane. When at home there was not a lot to choose between the Walkman output and the sound from the original CD played on the 204.

I sold the Walkman on eBay a few years ago, not having used it in quite a while.

But . . . the Walkman Pro cost >£250 over 20 years ago.

Would I spend the equivalent now on a portable player?

Marco
30-06-2009, 08:58
Even if you did, Brian, I guarantee it wouldn't sound as good! ;)

Perhaps we should find someone with an optimally functioning Sony Walkman Pro and get them to compare it with the highest quality example available of its digital counterpart (whatever that is - you tell me) and see which comes out on top in terms of out-and-out sound quality?

You see, that's the whole point as far as tape enthusiasts like Beechy, others and myself are concerned - we contend that the *best* examples of old analogue technology still outperform the *best* of anything that digital has to offer today, regardless of cost :)

Marco.

aquapiranha
30-06-2009, 10:38
454


:)

Marco
30-06-2009, 10:40
Tee hee... I might make that into my new avatar! :lol:

Marco.

niklasthedolphin
30-06-2009, 11:09
Portable audio and car audio is not supposed to, never was and will never be close to high end quality sound.

"dolph"

Marco
30-06-2009, 11:18
Yep. It's amazing though how close a Walkman Pro, playing high quality recordings on cassette, through top-notch full-size headphones (not those tinny sounding in-ear monstrosities) can get to that, given the restrictions of such devices! :)

Marco.

niklasthedolphin
30-06-2009, 11:20
Yep. It's amazing though how close a Walkman Pro, playing high quality recordings, through top-notch full-size headphones (not those tinny sounding in-ear monstrosities) can get to that! :)

Marco.

Somehow I believe you must be easily impressed.

"dolph"

Marco
30-06-2009, 11:21
Not at all - far from it!!! You really don't know me at all, do you?

Marco.

Labarum
30-06-2009, 12:45
we contend that the *best* examples of old analogue technology still outperform the *best* of anything that digital has to offer today, regardless of cost

Yes, the problem is comparing like with like. To my knowledge there is no iPod style player that will play losslessly encoded music through a top notch DAC and headphone amp.

Such a beast would, I believe equal or better a Sony Walkman Pro.

There must be professional, portable digital recorders that would play back at extremely high quality, but they would not be as small as an iPod, and would probably be bigger than the Walkman Pro. I have not gone looking for them.

I am told that the Sony competitors to the iPod beat it.

The biggest problem with digital music is chasing quantity over quality - in radio and recorded media - but memory and bandwidth is so cheap these days that should not be an issue. It is a question of re-educating the customer: it can be so much better at very little cost.

Marco
30-06-2009, 12:59
Such a beast would, I believe equal or better a Sony Walkman Pro.


Possibly. It would be interesting finding out, but like you say, it wouldn't be very portable! :eyebrows:

Marco.

Labarum
30-06-2009, 13:09
Possibly. It would be interesting finding out, but like you say, it wouldn't be very portable! .

Twice the size of the Walkman Pro? But folk want much smaller these day. I sure a box no bigger than an iPhone could to play lossless files at 24/96 or better at extremely high quality, but the market would be against it.

niklasthedolphin
30-06-2009, 13:36
There are portable digital players doing lossless 24 / 192.
They cost.

"dolph"

Beechwoods
30-06-2009, 13:40
Mine:

http://www.wildlife-sound.org/equipment/recorders/hd-p2/frontIMG_4594.jpg

Not the smallest, but capable of 24/192, and a lovely machine to use.

Labarum
30-06-2009, 16:59
Tell me more about these machines, gentlemen!

Add an amp and speakers, or actives and you could have a very respectable system.

I guess they have internal hard drives to which you can copy FLAC files.

Problem is you are paying for an ADC and Mic pre-amps you dont want.

Beechwoods
30-06-2009, 18:11
The Tascam HD-P2 uses Compact Flash as it's storage - I have a 4Gb card in mine. I use it for analogue transfers. The D/A's in it are fantastic - it's a professional field recording machine. Designed to be a recorder more than a simple playback machine, but it can be connected to a PC or Mac via Firewire on which it will mount like any other drive.

I like it's small form factor - it's bigger than some which means it's more useful as a regular use standalone machine - I can read the display from across the room.

Here's some more info: http://www.tascam.com/details;9,11,52,14.html

And another picture :)

http://www.equipmentemporium.com/images/hDP2_lrg.jpg

Stratmangler
30-06-2009, 20:03
That Tascam HD-P2 looks like a right good bit of audio porn. Spec looks very, very sexy too.

Makes my EMU 0202 http://www.emu.com/products/product.asp?category=610&subcategory=611&product=15186 look very downmarket in comparison. I use the EMU to transfer vinyl over to HD for Squeezebox access. And results are very, very good too.

http://images.americas.creative.com/images/products/headers/prod15186_hdr2_1_1_70.jpg

Now if I had the thick end of a grand kicking around .................



Chris:)

Labarum
30-06-2009, 20:19
That Tascam HD-P2 . . . Makes my EMU 0202 http://www.emu.com/products/product.asp?category=610&subcategory=611&product=15186 look very downmarket in comparison.

The EMU 0404 USB

http://www.emu.com/products/product.asp?product=15185

is all the rave here

http://www.computeraudiophile.com/content/24192-USB-20-beer-budget-EMU-0404-mini-review

Stratmangler
30-06-2009, 20:35
The EMU 0404 USB

http://www.emu.com/products/product.asp?product=15185

is all the rave here

http://www.computeraudiophile.com/content/24192-USB-20-beer-budget-EMU-0404-mini-review

I did look at the 0404 and had a good long think about the facilities it has over the 0202, and at the time decided that I was probably not going to use them.

In retrospect (isn't hindsight a wonderful thing ?) I may have been better off with the 0404 - there are things it has that I now wish I could play with.

Ah well .......

Chris:doh:

Labarum
30-06-2009, 20:48
I did look at the 0404 and had a good long think about the facilities it has over the 0202, and at the time decided that I was probably not going to use them.



They say either of them will give much more expensive DACs a run for their money.

Are you in a position to compare the ENU box to either Standac?

Stratmangler
30-06-2009, 21:26
They say either of them will give much more expensive DACs a run for their money.

Are you in a position to compare the ENU box to either Standac?

Both are very good - overall I prefer the StanDac for playback.

The EMU does not sound too clever when using the through monitoring facility, but pure playback is good. The Standac is better in this respect.

Chris:)

Labarum
01-07-2009, 04:21
Both are very good - overall I prefer the StanDac for playback.


Thanks. I might need a second box soon. The 0404 is tempting for all its extra features and as a nice toy to play with, but I don't have any LPs to digitise.

The Standac looks the part, and does everything needed of a DAC-Preamp - a remote volume control would be nice, and an analogue in; but I can live witout them.

break-3
01-07-2009, 06:08
Yes, the problem is comparing like with like. To my knowledge there is no iPod style player that will play losslessly encoded music through a top notch DAC and headphone amp.

Such a beast would, I believe equal or better a Sony Walkman Pro.

You can play lossless files through an iPod's dock connector to a portable DAC/amp such as the iBasso D10. I think you'd be surprised at the quality.

Labarum
01-07-2009, 06:19
You can play lossless files through an iPod's dock connector to a portable DAC/amp such as the iBasso D10. I think you'd be surprised at the quality.

As I understand it the iPod does has a digital-out available through its docking shoe, but it is locked. Manufacturers who want to access that output (to route the digital signal to a superior DAC) must pay a licence fee to apple.

Does the iBasso have the key to unlock the digital out? I though only Wadia had paid the fee.

http://www.wadia.com/products/transports/170i/

twelvebears
01-07-2009, 08:14
To my knowledge there is no iPod style player that will play losslessly encoded music through a top notch DAC and headphone amp.

Pretty much my whole music collection is Apple Lossless and all of our various iPods play lossless files quite happily and with excellent quality when using decent headphones.

The only issue I've encountered when using lossless file on 'Pods is that on those which HDD storage rather than solid state (i.e. iPod 'classics'), is that the larger file size fills the buffer memory faster, which means the HDD works far more and kills the battery life.

This isn't a problem with the solid state Nano, Touch or iPhone.

Labarum
01-07-2009, 08:25
Pretty much my whole music collection is Apple Lossless and all of our various iPods play lossless files quite happily and with excellent quality when using decent headphones.

Yes, they do; but the iPod internal DAC is not that great, and the digital-out on the iPod is locked. To my knowledge only the Wadia dock unlocks it (licence issue).


http://www.wadia.com/products/transports/170i/

Only by using that dock can a better DAC be brought into play.

That is regrettable.

Stratmangler
01-07-2009, 22:32
I was under the impression that one was restricted to either the headphone analog outs or a dock analog outs for the iPod - the Wadia dock promises much more via the S/PDIF than anything else out there.

The only major downside with the Wadia dock is the cost - it is up near the price of the B&W Zeppelin, and you can guess which way your more discerning iPod user is more likely to go.

Which is a real shame - I can imagine that the iPod/Wadia/DAC route is up there with the best network streaming hardware players.

Either Apple really know and understand their place in the market, or they are wilful in restricting the interconnectivity of their products.
I suspect that it is a bit of both - the Audiophile (for want of a better term) user end of things is probably far less lucrative than we of more discerning taste would care to admit.

Apple on the other hand are probably far more interested in selling MP3 downloads from the iTunes store, the likes of which I would not touch with a ten foot pole - personally I would load an iPod with ALAC files from my own library, and I would either rerip my CD's to ALAC for iPod use or use whatever format convertion software required to change my FLAC files to ALAC.

Ultimately, if I owned an iPod I suspect that it would only be used as a stand alone portable player, and I would just concede defeat with respect to decent interconnectivity and interoperability in the context of any static audio system in the home.

Ah well .........

Chris:)

snowflake
02-07-2009, 04:05
I would say that this would be today's equivalent of the Walkman pro

"...the heart of of the HM-801's DAC section contains the PCM1704 DACs (and its output section the OPA627's)"

http://www.head-direct.com/upload/2009May10191435hifiMAN-1.jpg

http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f15/hifiman-hm-801-portable-player-dac-review-part-one-two-424091/

Labarum
02-07-2009, 06:34
I was under the impression that one was restricted to either the headphone analog outs or a dock analog outs for the iPod - the Wadia dock promises much more via the S/PDIF than anything else out there.

I don't know how good the Wadia Docks internal DAC is - probably few will beat it at any reasonable price.

I don't understand Apple's policy in locking the digital-out. Do they really think they can increase their revenue significantly by licensing fees? It would be better to free the digital out on the shoe, and better still to add an optical out to the miniture jack as they do in the MacBooks.

There is an open source operating system that can be loaded onto the iPod. I don't know if those folk are close to unlocking the digital out, or if that would be legal.

Yes, an iPod with a big enough hard drive loaded with lossless files which would drop into a dock to drive and external DAC could be an attractive option for many.

But so many folk are seduced by "good enough" and never look for "could be better", and let's be honest, the "good enough" is very good compared to the consumer electronics audio of a few years ago.

Ali Tait
02-07-2009, 10:29
From what I can see the Wadia doesnt come with an internal dac?

niklasthedolphin
02-07-2009, 10:52
If I were to go for portable digital audio and still considering price tags, the iPod and other similar consumer garbage would be my last choise.

I would maybe go for the Fostex FR-2

http://arck.littleblox.com/catalogue/fostex/fr_2_field_recorder.jpg

or the Korg MR-1000

http://www.stringsite.com/images/KORG_MR1000_HDRecord.jpg

However, If I could do with less transportability, then my choise would be the Tascam DV-RA 1000 HD

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/sep07/images/TascamDVRA1000HD_Header_l.jpg


"dolph"

Labarum
02-07-2009, 11:31
From what I can see the Wadia doesnt come with an internal dac?

You are correct:

http://www.istereos.co.uk/product_info.php?osCsid=d9b2861c0faecbcda571f9a274 6c4342&cPath=&products_id=39&gclid=CK6Tut_1tpsCFd0B4wod6zhdEg

Labarum
02-07-2009, 11:44
Fostex FR2 £420

http://www.dv247.com/invt/40463/

Korg MR 1000 £450

http://www.dv247.com/invt/40038/

Tascam DV-RA 1000 HD £2000

http://www.dv247.com/invt/38013/

Stratmangler
02-07-2009, 13:16
If I were to go for portable digital audio and still considering price tags, the iPod and other similar consumer garbage would be my last choise.

I would maybe go for the Fostex FR-2

or the Korg MR-1000

However, If I could do with less transportability, then my choise would be the Tascam DV-RA 1000 HD

"dolph"

You can't honestly call any of the kit listed discrete can you ?

None of it fits in your pocket.

None of it is likely to be used on a daily basis, as most Walkman units probably were, and as many iPods currently are.

OK, they probably will get used daily - for work.

You're unlikely to see someone on the bus using one to listen to their latest download aren't you ?

Crhis:)

Labarum
02-07-2009, 13:19
The Walkman Pro was hardly pocket size, Chris, but expectations have changed.

And it would be possible to produce a very high quality player no bigger than the iPhone.

Stratmangler
02-07-2009, 14:01
The Walkman Pro was hardly pocket size, Chris, but expectations have changed.

Very big pockets ?:lolsign:


And it would be possible to produce a very high quality player no bigger than the iPhone.

Agreed.

Chris:)

Labarum
02-07-2009, 14:05
Very big pockets ?:lolsign:


My Walkman Pro fitted perfectly into my Barbour Jacket pocket.

I still have the pocket, but not the Walkman.

break-3
02-07-2009, 15:17
As I understand it the iPod does has a digital-out available through its docking shoe, but it is locked. Manufacturers who want to access that output (to route the digital signal to a superior DAC) must pay a licence fee to apple.

Does the iBasso have the key to unlock the digital out? I though only Wadia had paid the fee.

http://www.wadia.com/products/transports/170i/

You're quite correct, I meant using the superior analogue output from the dock connector to the iBasso via a dock-3.5mm adaptor. Still very impressive.

niklasthedolphin
02-07-2009, 19:10
You can't honestly call any of the kit listed discrete can you ?

None of it fits in your pocket.

None of it is likely to be used on a daily basis, as most Walkman units probably were, and as many iPods currently are.

OK, they probably will get used daily - for work.

You're unlikely to see someone on the bus using one to listen to their latest download aren't you ?

Crhis:)

Discrete??

Did I mention anything about discrete?

Frankly, I wouldn't care less.

If I find them being discrete, I would gladly use them on the bus for listening to my latest dopwnload, If I could find downloadable material in 24/192 and if I ever was to take the bus.

Life is too short for public transportation, local newspapers, discount warehouses and knitting.

Anyway, they are more discrete than my present "transportable" (transportable is stated in my manual) Open Reel Tape Recorder and the two first are also more transportable than my "transportable" Roland digital Studio Hard Disc Recorder and they all three are more transportable than my DAW.

So my choise would still be: In the bin with the iPod and move on in the world of digital wanna-be quality products.

:-)

"dolph"

Beechwoods
02-07-2009, 19:13
Life is too short for public transportation, local newspapers, discount warehouses and knitting

:lol:

I'm with you on discount warehouses, local 'newspapers' and knitting, but public transport...? The bus is great. Less stressful than driving, you can listen to your music and people watch! My state of wellness has improved significantly since I got out of my car and got the bus! You should try it!

niklasthedolphin
02-07-2009, 22:00
:lol:

I'm with you on discount warehouses, local 'newspapers' and knitting, but public transport...? The bus is great. Less stressful than driving, you can listen to your music and people watch! My state of wellness has improved significantly since I got out of my car and got the bus! You should try it!

Not really. My Alfa Romeo 159 JTD 1.9 Ti SW would give me a hard time making that choise.

"dolph"

REM
03-07-2009, 08:41
:lol:

...The bus is great. Less stressful than driving, you can listen to your music and people watch! My state of wellness has improved significantly since I got out of my car and got the bus! You should try it!

You might not be so keen on taking the bus if you lived in my neck of the woods. I can attest that this is a statement of fact and not a deranged fantasy, unfortunately.
http://www.chavtowns.co.uk/2004/12/accrington/

Cheers

Beechwoods
03-07-2009, 18:46
I guess I'm lucky in good ole Brissle - despite it being the inspiration for Vicky Pollard off Little Britain! I've always found our public transport to be very couth!

Anyway, back to the subject!