High fidelity????????????????

[ballymenaman]

I'm new to the whole audiophile thing. Obviously individuals' ears are different and sound is a subjective thing - but I read so much about sonic signatures. Arcam, for instance, is supposed to have a particular sound. Same for Naim. Can anybody tell me what these are? Does Arcam/Naim equipment reproduce music faithfully - to me this would mean it sounding like it did in the studio or wherever it was recorded - or does it lend something different to the sound and change it?

I would love to hear these different 'signatures' for myself but unfortunately I live in a place where I have no access to a good HIfi dealer where I could hear the different brands in action. The standard cheapo Japanese/Korean budget gear is the only stuff stocked locally. I am looking for a new amp and find myself relying on advice from forums such as this and from Hifi reviews (which I often suspect might be a bit biased?!).

Here's the million dollar question - what brand produces music the most faithfully and with the least distortion at a sensible cost?

[jandl100]

Well, all brands have their fans and their detractors.

As a general rule, nothing is perfect, you just have to choose the ones that suit your own priorities and preferences.
--- or become a box-swapper like me (and others here) who just enjoy trying different things.
--- buy something on the used market - use it for a while and then change it for something else. Great fun! :)

I guess it's a bit more expensive (courier fees) to do that from NI, but only a few tens of Euros extra really.

[AlfaGTV]

Here's the million dollar question - what brand produces music the most faithfully and with the least distortion at a sensible cost?

Here's a million dollar answer for you ;)
Depends.... on what you like, what you listen to, how your listening room affects audio, your budget, how you define "faithfully" etc etc etc
:)

Jerry is right, box swapping is an option in getting to know your prefs!
If thats not an option, then i'd say you need to climb really (imo) high on the admittance fee ladder before meeting the two criteria: faithful reproduction of all audible frequencies on most speakers and doing so without adding audible distorsion

The one biggest influence on your audio at home will always be the interaction between the room and your choice of speakers though, so dont worry too much bout te electronics!

Atb Mike

[Jimbo]

I would suggest that you try and listen too as much equipment as possible and decide what sounds good to you. It all comes down to what your own ears tell you. All products, as you have correctly mentioned, have their own 'sound' and add their own colouration to the music. If you can articulate what sort of sound you are looking for I am sure the AOS members will point you in the right direction as to what equipment to listen too:)

[Reffc]

I'm new to the whole audiophile thing. Obviously individuals' ears are different and sound is a subjective thing - but I read so much about sonic signatures. Arcam, for instance, is supposed to have a particular sound. Same for Naim. Can anybody tell me what these are? Does Arcam/Naim equipment reproduce music faithfully - to me this would mean it sounding like it did in the studio or wherever it was recorded - or does it lend something different to the sound and change it?

I would love to hear these different 'signatures' for myself but unfortunately I live in a place where I have no access to a good HIfi dealer where I could hear the different brands in action. The standard cheapo Japanese/Korean budget gear is the only stuff stocked locally. I am looking for a new amp and find myself relying on advice from forums such as this and from Hifi reviews (which I often suspect might be a bit biased?!).

Here's the million dollar question - what brand produces music the most faithfully and with the least distortion at a sensible cost?



Hi Andy

Well, you live just up the road from where my roots are at ;-) (Magherafelt)...lovely place to live.

The others have highlighted a few considerations.

First thig to stress is that you need to get out of your mind the issue of an all-one-brand set up as that is partly a marketing tool, partly a throwback to considerations with midi system comparisons etc and partly because few all-one-brand systems are needed or designed to work that way plus not an indication of best sound quality (ie not everything needs to come from one manufacturer for best SQ).

In general, no hifi will ever satisfy 100% as there are flaws (some deliberate some not) in things such as how recordings are mastered, the match of speakers to room space and the designs used for source components. Of everything, the amps are usually in my experience) less difficult to get right but the best place to start is with speakers.

Rule of thumb #1: Small room, small speakers (small floor standers or up to mid sized stand mounters....6 to 8 inch drivers); Large room, larger speakers (large and more powerful stand mounts or larger floor standers).

Do some research on speakers. Not all is as it seems. Avoid flavour of the month products which are popular one month and never heard of the next, often because of meaningless 5 star magazine reviews (unfair, not all are meaningless, but motivations and comparisons which are considered for the gradings need to be understood. just because something has a 5 star review doesn't mean it will work for you).

Rule of thumb #2: Never assemble a hifi set up from a list of components chosen from 5 star reviews. It simply doesn't work that way;

Rule of thumb # 3: Stick with solid state amps to begin with and always buy they best you can afford (new or used but if used, buy something which is say no more than 10 years old to avoid service needs or worries) and buy something with more than ample power (ie higher rated) than the speakers might need to allow for enough headroom to prevent amp overload (this is sometimes referred to as clipping) at low impedance loads (high current demand) from speakers;

Rule of Thumb #4: stick with source components that best match your current music collection unless you want the convenience of streaming etc which has it's own pitfalls and worries. CDs are cheap and plentiful and good CD players very cheap now on the used market, so pick one which has extra digital inputs (ie can be used as a stand alone DAC for streaming or playing music from laptops etc).

Most important...have fun in the process!

The hardest thing to get right is the speakers, so this is where most effort is needed since they are the least likely things to change in your system once matched correctly to your room and music tastes. Some great used bargains about.

Cabling: simply not a major consideration to begin with. Use anything of any quality until you are happy with your set up, then you can concentrate on squeezing the last drops of refinement and transparency from the system by looking at reasonably priced quality cables (they needn't cost the earth). Just ensure that interconnects are screened and that speaker cable is reasonable cross section. Van Damme, Talk Electronics, and Black Rhodium all produce some stunningly good speaker cable for under a fiver a metre (excluding terminations).

[Macca]

I think if you are just getting into audio worrying about the 'voicing' of different brands of amplifiers is the last thing you need to do.

As Paul says best place to start is loudspeakers. They will need to be suitable to the room and suitable for the sort of presentation that you want. Do you want warm lush and romantic, something you can relax to whilst you read, or do you want a loudspeaker that grabs your attention and doesn't let go? Or something in between? If the room is small it can limit your choice a little but some big loudspeakers do work in small rooms (Tannoy DC for example). Get speaker/room right it is easier to make everything else fall into place.

One you have decided on speakers then you can think about what will be the best amp to drive them within your budget.

[ballymenaman]

One you have decided on speakers then you can think about what will be the best amp to drive them within your budget.

The speakers are already in place - Focal Chorus 726V floorstanders. I'm not in a position to change them. Anyway, I'm happy with them and they suit the room they are in.

The issue is the amp. I'm currently using a Denon PMA350II which I've had for years. I also have a Marantz PM7200, which is with the repairer at present. It may not be economic to repair - I'm waiting to hear. In any event, I wasn't happy with the sound. I had a Primare i21 for a very short time and it was the mutt's nuts. Lovely clear sound and not too much bass (which I like). The Primare isn't a permanent option as it developed a serious fault and went back to the previous owner. I don't really want to spend much more than £500. All suggestions welcome.

[Tim]

First thig to stress is that you need to get out of your mind the issue of an all-one-brand set up as that is partly a marketing tool, partly a throwback to considerations with midi system comparisons etc and partly because few all-one-brand systems are needed or designed to work that way plus not an indication of best sound quality (ie not everything needs to come from one manufacturer for best SQ).

In general, no hifi will ever satisfy 100% as there are flaws (some deliberate some not) in things such as how recordings are mastered, the match of speakers to room space and the designs used for source components. Of everything, the amps are usually in my experience) less difficult to get right but the best place to start is with speakers.

Rule of thumb #1: Small room, small speakers (small floor standers or up to mid sized stand mounters....6 to 8 inch drivers); Large room, larger speakers (large and more powerful stand mounts or larger floor standers).

Do some research on speakers. Not all is as it seems. Avoid flavour of the month products which are popular one month and never heard of the next, often because of meaningless 5 star magazine reviews (unfair, not all are meaningless, but motivations and comparisons which are considered for the gradings need to be understood. just because something has a 5 star review doesn't mean it will work for you).

Rule of thumb #2: Never assemble a hifi set up from a list of components chosen from 5 star reviews. It simply doesn't work that way;

Rule of thumb # 3: Stick with solid state amps to begin with and always buy they best you can afford (new or used but if used, buy something which is say no more than 10 years old to avoid service needs or worries) and buy something with more than ample power (ie higher rated) than the speakers might need to allow for enough headroom to prevent amp overload (this is sometimes referred to as clipping) at low impedance loads (high current demand) from speakers;

Rule of Thumb #4: stick with source components that best match your current music collection unless you want the convenience of streaming etc which has it's own pitfalls and worries. CDs are cheap and plentiful and good CD players very cheap now on the used market, so pick one which has extra digital inputs (ie can be used as a stand alone DAC for streaming or playing music from laptops etc).

Most important...have fun in the process!

The hardest thing to get right is the speakers, so this is where most effort is needed since they are the least likely things to change in your system once matched correctly to your room and music tastes. Some great used bargains about.

Cabling: simply not a major consideration to begin with. Use anything of any quality until you are happy with your set up, then you can concentrate on squeezing the last drops of refinement and transparency from the system by looking at reasonably priced quality cables (they needn't cost the earth). Just ensure that interconnects are screened and that speaker cable is reasonable cross section. Van Damme, Talk Electronics, and Black Rhodium all produce some stunningly good speaker cable for under a fiver a metre (excluding terminations).
This is one of the most coherent and well reasoned pieces of advice I think I have ever read for someone contemplating dipping their toe into the treacherous waters of Hi-Fidelity - nice one Paul :thumbsup:

The only thing I would add Andy is don't rush into anything, listen to whatever you can, wherever you can and most importantly from my point of view, never forget about the music (oh, and have fun too).

[agk]

From my recollection (and its a while since I owned product from either) Denon and Marantz have quite different sound characteristics with the 'rantz being more forward in presentation.
Which of these did you prefer I wonder?

If the Primare had a sound you like then finding another would seem the best option. Not a brand I'm familiar with to listen to but your budget should suffice and if not you could live with what you have a while longer and increase it.

Those thoughts aside and despite Pauls very good post I would have to suggest getting stuck in.
When I started out on this long road I just grabbed stuff I could afford that I liked the look of. Now, some years on, I have a fairly good idea of what works well for me.

[roob]

If this review of the Focals is anything to go by I would look for a smooth warm sounding amp
http://www.techradar.com/reviews/audio-visual/hi-fi-and-audio/hi-fi-and-av-speakers/focal-chorus-726v-632392/review

[Spectral Morn]

If this review of the Focals is anything to go by I would look for a smooth warm sounding amp
http://www.techradar.com/reviews/audio-visual/hi-fi-and-audio/hi-fi-and-av-speakers/focal-chorus-726v-632392/review

Sugden a21 might be an option too, if its not a massive room and you don't want to do headbanging. I don't think the budget focal's are particularly hard to drive but 25 watts class A only goes so far, the SE version of the amp is 30watts class A. You may be able to pick anyone of these amps up S/h for what you can spend - maybe.

http://www.sugdenaudio.com/a21_series.htm


Regards Neil

[MikeMusic]

and get a good mains set up..

IE. Make sure your earth is properly earthed not wobbling around like mine was.
Have unswitched sockets for each piece of kit, if not a good mains block, but into an unswitched socket

I mention this a lot as when I moved my system sounded awful. The earth and the sockets took it up more than a few steps

[Mr. C]

The most important items you will need for purchasing any equipment are your EARS as they will determine whether you are drawn to the equipment or not, forget the Valves + Vinyl / Solid state + Digital. Let the music being played guide you to your preferences. Not you best mate's long lost fourth cousin's girlfriends father who once thought Linn Kans and LP 12's were the dogs dangles. :rolleyes:

Also be sure in your OWN mind your are happy, buyers remorse is rife on audio forums so take your time, do not be rushed and when choosing between the final pieces of the puzzle obtain a home demonstration before parting with your hard earned wedge.

Remember the biggest influence on ANY system is the room speaker interface followed by amplifier / speaker impedance.

Most of all make sure it right for you.

[Spectral Morn]

The most important items you will need for purchasing any equipment are your EARS as they will determine whether you are drawn to the equipment or not, forget the Valves + Vinyl / Solid state + Digital. Let the music being played guide you to your preferences. Not you best mate's long lost fourth cousin's girlfriends father who once thought Linn Kans and LP 12's were the dogs dangles. :rolleyes:

Also be sure in your OWN mind your are happy, buyers remorse is rife on audio forums so take your time, do not be rushed and when choosing between the final pieces of the puzzle obtain a home demonstration before parting with your hard earned wedge.

Remember the biggest influence on ANY system is the room speaker interface followed by amplifier / speaker impedance.

Most of all make sure it right for you.

+1

[John]

+2

[tpbholm]

Definitely agree that the most important thing you need when buying hifi is your ears. I also support the idea that speakers are a key part of the system. I bought my Opus 3 Credo's in the mid 80's and I still love the sound they make in my turntable based system.
I'm in a similar position with regard to having a decent hifi dealer near by. It's worth considering some of the small UK manufacturers of amplifiers, cable etc. Most of them will send you kit on at least a 30 day demo period - you get your money back no questions asked if its not for you. I've dealt with Temple Audio, Amptastic and the Custom Hifi Co. and would recommend all of them as making good quality hifi equipment at sensible prices. All three companies as well as making good amps, power supplies etc also make quality interconnects and speaker cables at very reasonable cost. I've also read good things about Tisbury Audio's passive preamp.
Above all else take your time and enjoy the auditioning process.

[Peter Stockwell]

The speakers are already in place - Focal Chorus 726V floorstanders. I'm not in a position to change them. Anyway, I'm happy with them and they suit the room they are in. I don't really want to spend much more than £500. All suggestions welcome.

What are your souces (Dac, CD player, Tuner ???) because if you only use one source, or if you have a multi input dac, one of the amptastic mini-1 :

http://amptastic.com/

Will do the job, and very well! You could also try the Temple Audio Bantam Gold ( http://www.templeaudio.net/bantamgold.html ) that is equally good but a bit more expensive, and is not easily convertable between amp with volume control and without volume control, it is available without a Volume control. Always with these amps they are compromised by the volume pot, so something like an Angle Audio LDR ( http://www.angleaudio.co.uk/Single-input-LDR-passive-preamp_11.asp ) volume control, will give you electronics that will clearly beat anything from mainstream manufacturers at 10 times the price.

[ballymenaman]

I have bought a Roksan Kandy K2 integrated. I think it sounds damned good but I see just about everyone else on this forum thinks they're rubbish. Don't know how it gets such great reviews if that's the case. I suppose all ears are different! I'd give it 4 or 5 stars!

[John]

End of the day if you happy with the amp that is what counts.

[Macca]

I have bought a Roksan Kandy K2 integrated. I think it sounds damned good but I see just about everyone else on this forum thinks they're rubbish. Don't know how it gets such great reviews if that's the case. I suppose all ears are different! I'd give it 4 or 5 stars!

I don't think they are rubbish at all. I like the Roksan CD players I have heard too. You can get anything to sound rubbish if you partner it badly enough.

[Tim]

I don't think they are rubbish at all.
+1

Very good equipment and certainly excellent value for money.

[ZincAlloy]

I'm new to the whole audiophile thing. Obviously individuals' ears are different and sound is a subjective thing - but I read so much about sonic signatures. Arcam, for instance, is supposed to have a particular sound. Same for Naim. Can anybody tell me what these are? Does Arcam/Naim equipment reproduce music faithfully - to me this would mean it sounding like it did in the studio or wherever it was recorded - or does it lend something different to the sound and change it?

I would love to hear these different 'signatures' for myself but unfortunately I live in a place where I have no access to a good HIfi dealer where I could hear the different brands in action. The standard cheapo Japanese/Korean budget gear is the only stuff stocked locally. I am looking for a new amp and find myself relying on advice from forums such as this and from Hifi reviews (which I often suspect might be a bit biased?!).

Here's the million dollar question - what brand produces music the most faithfully and with the least distortion at a sensible cost?

Hi - try Lyric Hi-Fi in Belfast, Moores in Newtownards or, next time you're in Dublin, Cloney Audio in Blackrock. Between them, you'll be able to hear Naim, Linn, Classe, Devialet, Arcam and loads of other gear. Have fun!

[SLS]

I would agree on continuing down the Primare line. The A30.1 integrated comes up fairly regularly at £500, sometimes a little less.

I used one for over 10 years and it is the absolute business. They are built like a tank and look great, if that matters.

Other suggestions.
The Furutech GT40 is a handy device at £400, a DAC, phono stage and headphone amp rolled in to one. (There is a group test of DACs £150 to £500 in HiFI News this month. Another Furutech comes out tops.) Dave at MCRU supplies these (and a lot else).
The Project Genie is a very nice little starter turntable, not least as it comes with an Ortofon Red cartridge, all for a snip over £200.
Black Rhodium Twist speaker cables at £3.50 or so are a bargain, well liked in these parts.

So you can buy a mix of new and s/h and get a nice platform to do some box-swapping. We've all been there.

[SLS]

I would agree on continuing down the Primare line. The A30.1 integrated comes up fairly regularly at £500, sometimes a little less.

I used one for over 10 years and it is the absolute business. They are built like a tank and look great, if that matters.

Other suggestions.
The Furutech GT40 is a handy device at £400, a DAC, phono stage and headphone amp rolled in to one. (There is a group test of DACs £150 to £500 in HiFI News this month. Another Furutech comes out tops.) Dave at MCRU supplies these (and a lot else).
The Project Genie is a very nice little starter turntable, not least as it comes with an Ortofon Red cartridge, all for a snip over £200.
Black Rhodium Twist speaker cables at £3.50 or so are a bargain, well liked in these parts.

So you can buy a mix of new and s/h and get a nice platform to do some box-swapping. We've all been there.

[Naughty Nigel]

I'm new to the whole audiophile thing. Obviously individuals' ears are different and sound is a subjective thing - but I read so much about sonic signatures. Arcam, for instance, is supposed to have a particular sound. Same for Naim. Can anybody tell me what these are? Does Arcam/Naim equipment reproduce music faithfully - to me this would mean it sounding like it did in the studio or wherever it was recorded - or does it lend something different to the sound and change it?

............... Here's the million dollar question - what brand produces music the most faithfully and with the least distortion at a sensible cost?

There is one brand that goes under the Mission Statement "For the closest approach to the original sound", but that is just a personal preference! :)

in my experience, loudspeakers and the signal source (i.e. tuner, deck, etc.) are the main factors determining how good a system sounds. Amplifiers tend to be comparatively benign, although there is no doubt that some do add (or in some cases, take away) a certain something.

I don't have 'golden ears', but I do get to hear (and take part in) live musical performances at least once a week, so I know what a live performance sounds, and feels like. I often wonder how many HiFi critics judge systems based on their own idea of what the music should sound like, rather than by comparing what they hear with a recent live performance? After all, the aim of a good HiFi system should be to provide "the closest approach to the original sound"!

I remember going to an orchestral performance at Newcastle City Hall, in the days before the Sage was built. I was a bit of a 'golden ears' in those days, and I distinctly remember closing my eyes and listening critically to the performance. What immediately struck me was that the bass sounded muddled and muddy, although the mid-range and treble was clear and silky smooth, although much 'drier' than my own sound system at the time. (Presumably the effects of the City Hall's acoustics?) However, had I been rating the 'sound system' that I was listening to, I would probably only have given it three and a half stars or four stars!

The fact is that modern recording technology gives us recordings that often bear little resemblance to the original, so if you can, get out and listen to some live performances on which to critique your system!

Regarding choice of amplifiers, I have used a pair of Quad II's for the past forty years, so I am used to the wonderfully warm sound that they provide (which suits my choice of music, but may not suit others in the same way). I recently set up a second system in my study using a second-hand Pioneer A-400 (with a pair of Quad 11L loudspeakers), and I have to say that I am very impressed with the sound that this combination provides, and for £100 for the amp from the Devils' own internet auction site it was something of a bargain.

Nigel.