Which Croft 2-box combi for my Harbeth's

[Cyreg]

Hello, new here on AoS, my first post is in the Welcome section.
I noticed there are a lot of Croft fans/users and knowledge here on AoS, so....

Few days ago I ordered a Croft Phono Integrated, so I'll have to wait a few weeks for it :D
Very curieus how it will sound(did nor hear any Croft) overall on my C7es3's instead of my LFD 0 mkIII/phono
If I like it enough or it's in some way better than the LFD, I probably will acquire a Croft 2-box set :)

As far as I can see budgetwise (around GBP2000) there are several combinations possible.
It should be including a phono possibility (I am using not too expensive MM's on my TecnoDec/Mi250)

Choice?:
- Micro25/Series7 standard (should probably be somewhat better than the Integrated?)
- Micro25R/Series7
- Micro25/Series7R
- Integrated-R/RIAA standard

What would you suggest is the better 2-box option with the C7es3 and why would that be (technical reason, better sounding)?
(I have no plans to spend any more money on amps, so no concerns for the upgrade path :)) thx Han

[stevied]

Hello, new here on AoS, my first post is in the Welcome section.
I noticed there are a lot of Croft fans/users and knowledge here on AoS, so....

Few days ago I ordered a Croft Phono Integrated, so I'll have to wait a few weeks for it :D
Very curieus how it will sound(did nor hear any Croft) overall on my C7es3's instead of my LFD 0 mkIII/phono
If I like it enough or it's in some way better than the LFD, I probably will acquire a Croft 2-box set :)

As far as I can see budgetwise (around GBP2000) there are several combinations possible.
It should be including a phono possibility (I am using not too expensive MM's on my TecnoDec/Mi250)

Choice?:
- Micro25/Series7 standard (should probably be somewhat better than the Integrated?)
- Micro25R/Series7
- Micro25/Series7R
- Integrated-R/RIAA standard

What would you suggest is the better 2-box option with the C7es3 and why would that be(sound)?
(I have no plans to spend any more money on amps, so no concerns for the upgrade path :)) thx Han


Second one down would be my choice!

[fiddlemaker]

Personally, I would go for the 25r/series 7 option.

[Covenant]

I use a series 7 with a passive pre-amp, it sounds superb. You could get the 7R and a very good passive for about £1600.If you didn't like the passive, which I doubt, you would sell it easily. Just a thought.

[Cyreg]

Thx for the views till now, but for the time being, I will stay with Croft > so no passive preamp :)


Personally, I would go for the 25r/series 7 option.

Do you know if only the preampstage has regulated voltages in the 25R or also regulating/improvement in the phonosection?

[fiddlemaker]

I use a series 7 with a passive pre-amp, it sounds superb. You could get the 7R and a very good passive for about £1600.If you didn't like the passive, which I doubt, you would sell it easily. Just a thought.

This sounds like a very sensible approach if you don't need a phono stage.

[Jimbo]

I have the Micro 25R and Series 7 and i would suggest your money would be best spent on this combination rather than any of the other combinations especially with the speakers you are using.

[Cyreg]

Jimbo, sorry for many Q's here, but I am very curieus :D

Do you have any idea how different in general, the combi 25R/7 soundwise differs from 25/7R?
Why do you feel that with Harbeth the 7 is better suited than the 7R?

Do you have an idea of what "technically" the 25R does more in regard to the 25?
On pics I do see an extra or different transformer and more tubes, but......?
(Yes, the R stands for regulated DC, but where?....is the phonosection also bettered?)

[Jimbo]

Hi Han,

I agonised over the same decision with Croft combinations for my system and as I see you are using Harbeths which I know reasonably well I think you would be better with the regulated pre rather than power amp. The Series 7R has a bit more grip than the 7 but I am not sure the extra you would pay over the 7 would be justified with your classic sounding Harbeths. Likewise the Micro 25R is a regulated preamp and has more control than the 25 which does also benefit the phono section.

Obviously in an ideal world you would need to try the different combinations with you speakers to hear the difference but if you have a budget of £2000 this is how i would spend my money. I would not get too hung up on the technical differences but if you are interested then may i suggest you contact Adrian Parsons at Audioflair in London as he is a Croft dealer and he can tell you all you will need to know about the amps and which combinations he would feel work best with your speakers.

[Cyreg]

Thx Jimbo, I also see in your signature, that you've found your (sound)type of tubes? :)

The 3rd option being the Integrated-R with seperate standard RIAA > any comment on that?

[hifi_dave]

Yes, you'd do best with separate pre (inc phono) and power.

[fiddlemaker]

Hi, in the 25R the HT supply for all stages is regulated (including phono), with separate regulation for each channel. I *think* that the signal circuitry is similar design in the 25 and 25R, with the 25R having better passive components and wiring. But the main difference is in the power supply. I also believe that the "beefier"power supply in the 25R allows you to run a better sounding valve like a 12bh7a or an e80cc in the line stage. This is certainly the case in my amp (a micro that Glenn upgraded to 25r spec earlier this year), owners of "normal" 25r's might want to check with GC...

In engineering terms, the series 7 or 7r would seem a perfect candidate for passive pre-amping, owing to the very high input impedance (see post 4 and 6). But if you need a phono stage, then the one in all the croft preamps is wonderful to my ears, and they do get better the more money you spend.....

[hifi_dave]

Personally, I'm not a fan of passive pre-amps especially when you can get a whole Croft pre, with internal MM phono stage, for 400 quid. Or a complete integrated, inc MM phono stage, for £1K. A great one box solution.

[Cyreg]

Thx everyone for the useful comments on my Q's :clap:
(very funny smilies here!)

I will be waiting for a few weeks before my Phono Integrated has arrived :)
And than take the time for getting used to its sound/musical presentation.

And if I like what I hear than in due time I will go for a Micro 25R/Series 7,
as recommended by most of you, for my budget.
(indeed I must have a phonoamplifier, so the passive way is closed) Han

[Elephantears]

I've tried all the Croft combination with Harbeth C7ES, except for the mono blocks. Which Croft combination works best for you will depend partly on your room. If you have a room with bass issues, then you will need the regulated pre-amp to tighten things up. Or you could use a regulated power amp to tighten things up - you don't necessarily need both. On one occasion I tried 25R/7R and had some issues - it felt like the 25R was opening things up too much for the Series 7, and this had a peculiar effect on rock music in particular. Basically, I heard lots more emphasis on space and tonal colour, but somehow lost the guts and dynamics. However I tried this combination again just recently and didn't have this experience at all. It was a different Series 7, I should point out, with a different valve, but also a different room, and a different source. I'm just mentioning this in order to demonstrate how hard it is to generalise. What I will say is that getting a good valve in a Series 7 can make all the difference. With a nice GEC 5751 it is fantastic.

[fiddlemaker]

. What I will say is that getting a good valve in a Series 7 can make all the difference. With a nice GEC 5751 it is fantastic.

Completely agree. My recent experience is that both the GE5751 and Mullard CV4004 (especially) take this amp to another level, so well worth investing in something nice.

[Cyreg]

I've tried all the Croft combination with Harbeth C7ES, except for the mono blocks. Which Croft combination works best for you will depend partly on your room. If you have a room with bass issues, then you will need the regulated pre-amp to tighten things up. Or you could use a regulated power amp to tighten things up - you don't necessarily need both. On one occasion I tried 25R/7R and had some issues - it felt like the 25R was opening things up too much for the Series 7, and this had a peculiar effect on rock music in particular. Basically, I heard lots more emphasis on space and tonal colour, but somehow lost the guts and dynamics. However I tried this combination again just recently and didn't have this experience at all. It was a different Series 7, I should point out, with a different valve, but also a different room, and a different source. I'm just mentioning this in order to demonstrate how hard it is to generalise. What I will say is that getting a good valve in a Series 7 can make all the difference. With a nice GEC 5751 it is fantastic.


Thx for this comment and you're right of course....all is depending on....
No problems with bass at all in my room with my LFD Zero mk3.1/MM and C7ES3's on Oddvar stools :)

So if my Phono Integrated sounds pretty good and favourable with my C7's then...
...maybe I could even consider or is it even better, to go with standard 25/7 set :bulb: ?

OK I understand it will be less open, detailed, in control and so on,
but (I think) I am primarily searching for the feel of the music/sound, not specifically more details

[Elephantears]

OK I understand it will be less open, detailed, in control and so on,
but (I think) I am primarily searching for the feel of the music/sound, not specifically more details

Then yes, absolutely go for 25/7. So long as you don't need the extra control, it is a really sweet combination.

[Cyreg]

Few days ago I ordered a Croft Phono Integrated, so I'll have to wait a few weeks for it :D
Very curieus how it will sound(did nor hear any Croft) overall on my C7es3's instead of my LFD 0 mkIII/phono
If I like it enough or it's in some way better than the LFD, I probably will acquire a Croft 2-box set :)

Well......expecting delivery next midweek, so.....:D

[hifi_dave]

Your Croft Integrated MM should be with you by middle of next week. UPS have it in their hands.

[DSJR]

For my tuppence worth, I'd see how you get along with the Croft integrated first before thinking too many steps ahead. I've only currently heard one fairly recent LFD amp into Harbeths and found it a bit too cool-handed for my tastes (the opposite of a rather sludgy sounding Sugden integrated Dave had for comparison). The Croft was a lovely balance in the middle, with SHL5's anyway. The separate pre and power Crofts do have a little more headroom and 'authority' and the 'R' series improves perception of the delicate subtleties in a recorded mix, but in all honesty, I'd probably go for both pre and power in 'R' form if this make appeals (well actually, I'd don my pipe and slippers [got the trilby already] and go for a large Quad myself - cough - like Harbeth use - another cough - ...).

[matodono1]

For my tuppence worth, I'd see how you get along with the Croft integrated first before thinking too many steps ahead. I've only currently heard one fairly recent LFD amp into Harbeths and found it a bit too cool-handed for my tastes (the opposite of a rather sludgy sounding Sugden integrated Dave had for comparison). The Croft was a lovely balance in the middle, with SHL5's anyway. The separate pre and power Crofts do have a little more headroom and 'authority' and the 'R' series improves perception of the delicate subtleties in a recorded mix, but in all honesty, I'd probably go for both pre and power in 'R' form if this make appeals (well actually, I'd don my pipe and slippers [got the trilby already] and go for a large Quad myself - cough - like Harbeth use - another cough - ...).

I completely agree with Dave, having recently heard the LFD IV and the Croft Micro 25R and Series 7R side by side I would say the R's have the edge, but were driving very different speakers from the Harbeths. Croft amps are very comfy driving this type of speaker.

If the budget doesn't stretch to both components in R format then I agree also with what others have said, get the pre amp in R version and partner with a Series 7 (non R) amp for best effect.

Regards, Matt.

[Cyreg]

Thx again for the further views on my question :)

Delivery of the Croft Integrated/MM will be this afternoon (according to UPS/t&t)

One other Q before I set up my Integrated this afternoon:
Should I worry about this Integrated having a reversed polarity (input vs output)?
(I can also listen of course, switching both channels at red and black terminals),
but just wondering if anyone has an idea about this? :confused:

Read that about some Croft gear a few times as comments on the internet. Han

[hifi_dave]

There is at least one thread about this on AOS. Basically, you will drive yourself crazy trying to discern tiny changes when you reverse polarity. Usually, some things sound a gnat's cock different and some don't. It varies from disc to disc and is really not worth bothering with. Anyway, the Integrated is already wired in phase.

[Cyreg]

Thx Dave, for your answer and....
... also a big thank you, for providing this 2 volume-pot amp to the Netherlands!
Box has been a little dented on 2 corners, but no effect on the amp ;)

Integrated already playing and sounding OK on all sources.
Just substituted my LFD and left everything the same except for the pc(of which I know it sounds somewhat clear).
I changed to the original UK powercord (with EU adapter) just to find out how it should/could sound.

I'll play a lot of LP's anyway this week to actively use the phonostage for some burning in.
And also for me for warming up and getting used to the sound of the Integrated/MM

But as for now it already sounds pretty good :D

[Cyreg]

....Integrated already playing and sounding OK on all sources.
Just substituted my LFD and left everything the same except for the pc(of which I know it sounds somewhat clear).
I changed to the original UK powercord (with EU adapter) just to find out how it should/could sound.... :D

It's now almost a week later, having played lots of music, evenso many LP's ;)

Changed some (net)cabling to find out the effects in search for a little warmer, fuller sound.
But without giving up the better qualities of the Croft's sound (I heard small sounds, that were masked before).

And now I am back to the original cabling BUT with reversed polarity on both speakers (done, already after 2 days :))
I liked it better that way with more smoothness and somewhat wider/deeper stage, specially on LP;)

In a few days I will go back to my LFD and will find out what to do after that.... Han

[DSJR]

I'd show the K20 speaker cable the door if you're still using it. It ruins proper tonality and reproduction in general I found. I don't know why, but it was consistent in all systems I heard it in!

[Cyreg]

I agree with you Dave, very much your view on the K20 in my small setup, but....
...this is the ARTspeak LS cable I do use in the main setup, that I've been listening to till now ;)

http://www.artspeak.nl/shop/index.php?item=&action=page&group_id=10000001&lang=NL

Is a very good sounding cable, as tested in several setups :D

[Cyreg]

If I should want a somewhat bigger and wider soundstage and a bit fuller sound than I get now with the Phono Integrated.....
...what combination of 25/25R and 7/7R would give me above sound the most, that is if any......?

[DSJR]

I agree with you Dave, very much your view on the K20 in my small setup, but....
...this is the ARTspeak LS cable I do use in the main setup, that I've been listening to till now ;)

http://www.artspeak.nl/shop/index.php?item=&action=page&group_id=10000001&lang=NL

Is a very good sounding cable, as tested in several setups :D

I sincerely apologise - I had the wrong K20 :doh::rolleyes:

[rubber duck]

If I should want a somewhat bigger and wider soundstage and a bit fuller sound than I get now with the Phono Integrated.....
...what combination of 25/25R and 7/7R would give me above sound the most, that is if any......?

That was quick! Didn't you just get your Croft amps?

[Cyreg]

No, just got my Croft Integrated/MM ;)
It has to compete with an LFD Mk3.1/MM.

Soundquality of the Integrated/MM is fine, I even hear small sounds now with ease, that are more masked with the LFD.
But I prefer the LFD's bigger stage and a warmer sounds till now!

So that's why I wondered and asked the quoted Q above and.....
...don't forget that it's also the title of this thread in the first place :)

[Cyreg]

Made a new thread about tuberolling for the Phono Integrated ;-)

[DSJR]

Since the basic circuits are similar, it's no surprise the current Croft range basically sounds the same throughout the range. The bigger and multiple power supplies add a touch more finesse to fine details and a gentler way with clipping IMO. All you need to know really :)

[Yomanze]

No, just got my Croft Integrated/MM ;)
It has to compete with an LFD Mk3.1/MM.

Soundquality of the Integrated/MM is fine, I even hear small sounds now with ease, that are more masked with the LFD.
But I prefer the LFD's bigger stage and a warmer sounds till now!

So that's why I wondered and asked the quoted Q above and.....
...don't forget that it's also the title of this thread in the first place :)

Yes I was surprised that Dave mentioned 'cool handed' for LFD as for me I also enjoy the huge 3D soundstage and the 'warmth / illumination' of LFD gear, but also the tonal and timbral accuracy. I haven't heard any Croft so can't comment on their gear.

[Yomanze]

There is a 3m pair of LFD Spirolink speaker cable on eBay for £100, £240 full price and good synergy with your Zero, actually a quite serious upgrade...

[IHP]

Hello, new here on AoS, my first post is in the Welcome section.
I noticed there are a lot of Croft fans/users and knowledge here on AoS, so....

Few days ago I ordered a Croft Phono Integrated, so I'll have to wait a few weeks for it :D
Very curieus how it will sound(did nor hear any Croft) overall on my C7es3's instead of my LFD 0 mkIII/phono
If I like it enough or it's in some way better than the LFD, I probably will acquire a Croft 2-box set :)

As far as I can see budgetwise (around GBP2000) there are several combinations possible.
It should be including a phono possibility (I am using not too expensive MM's on my TecnoDec/Mi250)

Choice?:
- Micro25/Series7 standard (should probably be somewhat better than the Integrated?)
- Micro25R/Series7
- Micro25/Series7R
- Integrated-R/RIAA standard

What would you suggest is the better 2-box option with the C7es3 and why would that be (technical reason, better sounding)?
(I have no plans to spend any more money on amps, so no concerns for the upgrade path :)) thx Han

After some experience with my Harbs and various amps (or alternatively put, buggering about in this insane hobby !) I'll be going back to the 25 or 25R Pre and 7 Power.

[Jimbo]

After some experience with my Harbs and various amps (or alternatively put, buggering about in this insane hobby !) I'll be going back to the 25 or 25R Pre and 7 Power.

Hi Ian,

I have noticed for some time that you have had croft amps and tried other stuff which i am sure were good but the Crofts are hard to beat.
I had croft amps 28 years ago and went round the houses only to return to Croft amps and from now on the only other amps i will consider would be better Croft amps:lol:

[IHP]

Hi Ian,

I have noticed for some time that you have had croft amps and tried other stuff which i am sure were good but the Crofts are hard to beat.
I had croft amps 28 years ago and went round the houses only to return to Croft amps and from now on the only other amps i will consider would be better Croft amps:lol:

Well if you do go for better please let me know and I'll happily take your 25R and 7 off your hands ;-)

[Jimbo]

Well if you do go for better please let me know and I'll happily take your 25R and 7 off your hands ;-)

Hi Ian,

I will probably get my 7 upgraded tp a 7R and the 25R to 25RS. I have seen loads of Croft amps for sale over the last year so I don't think you will have to wait long. I did see someone sold a 25RS last year for £1100 - must be crazy:lol: Good luck:)

[Cyreg]

Just to let you know I sold the Phono Integrated and kept the LFD 0 Mk3.1/MM for now in my main system.

And I couldn't use the Int in the bookshelf setup in my 2e system instead of my NAD :-(
It really got warm, because of too little above space, and I also missed the Remote Control at that specific setup.

Well maybe I will try a config of Micro25(?)/series7 later this year (and I'll let you know in time Hifi-Dave/Radlett Audio, thx)
And thx for all comments sofar, nice forum ;-)