Speaker Positioning Advice Please.

[DaveK]

Hi All,
Yet another plea for help, I'm afraid:scratch:
Since my original pics showing my bookshelf speakers on the floor, and my amusing (to others :) ) 'Eureka' moment (when the speakers completely 'disappeared' and all the sound seemed to come from somewhere behind the TV), I have DIY'd some wooden speaker stands that nearly get the WAF, added a StanDAC 7520 just upstream of the amp and connected the two using single crystal phono interconnects.
The improvement in sound quality is very pleasing, to say the least, and appears to be continuing, probably due to both StanDAC and interconnects bedding in.
However, try as I might, I cannot get the speakers to 'disappear' again whilst in an acceptable listening position (at the apex of an equilateral triangle with speakers at the base). What I do get is a soundstage which is spread between the speakers but the speakers are audibly still there. I hope that I am explaining this well enough for you to get the (sound) picture.
Is it just a case of trial and error with speaker positioning, toe in/toe out etc. or does anyone recognise what I am hearing and have advice on how to improve it?
Musical Nirvana is getting nearer but still just out of reach.

Now a contentious note - don't let it stop you giving me some polite advice, beauty being in the ear of the beholder, but nothing I heard at Eggborough at the weekend made me want to change anything in my system, but the acoustics there were not really favourable. Don't get me wrong, some of the sounds were superb but the price to be paid for this in terms of home furnishings ruled them out of my consideration. :ner: Just thought I'd add that to elicit a response, the forum seems a bit quiet tonight. ;)

[The Vinyl Adventure]

speaker positioning is a git and imposible in my view to give any advice on as there are to many variables.
just play around until it sounds right
toeing out tends to be a bad idea from my experience though

on the second point hifi is definatly one of the most obvious examples of the rule of diminishing returns i personaly think the £10000 pound mark is the point at which ferther investment becomes a little daft ..as far as contentious remarks go you might find that too will elicit response

to contradict my self slightly i should point out i would definatly consider my self capable of being daft.. finances permitting of course

[jimdgoulding]

Dave- Hi. You'll have to get your triangle out from your room surfaces and boundaries and that would most definitely include your TV. You could always return them to whatever when you're not listening to music. And you might, should, try what I make round your tweeters. Reflection of any kind is a detriment to space expansiveness and image specificity, and freedom from your speakers.

[DaveK]

Dave- Hi.
And you might, should, try what I make round your tweeters. Reflection of any kind is a detriment to space expansiveness and image specificity, and freedom from your speakers.

Good Morning Jim,
Thanks for your input but I'm a complete novice (numptie) at this, so can you please elaborate on the bits in blue italics please - sorry to be a pain.
Cheers,

[Marco]

Hi Dave,

Jim does some diffraction devices for speakers which I'm sure you'd find interesting :)

See here: http://www.diffractionbegone.com/

Marco.

P.S I tidied up the quote you did above, as you'd made a bit of a dog's dinner of it :eyebrows: ;)

[Sand Dancin Donkey Walker]

Dave

Why not try and do a drawing of your room layout, showing current gear and speaker positions. Then others can probably make some suggestions of alternative speaker placement, or a change of total room layout if practical.

Worth the effort.

Andy - SDDW

[jimdgoulding]

Good Morning Jim,
Thanks for your input but I'm a complete novice (numptie) at this, so can you please elaborate on the bits in blue italics please - sorry to be a pain.
Cheers,

I'd be delighted to, Dave, and I second Donkey Walker's suggestion if that's a possibility. We've all been there before. No pain, no gain. So that I can reply responsibly, kindly tell me/us what kind of speakers you are using. Thanks.

[Yiangos]

Hi Dave

Here's a "quickie" :)

First-of-all.decouple the speakers from the stands using bluetac.Four small round blobs of bluetac between the base of the speakers and the stands will do the trick.
Second,and this is only to get you going.Experiment if you can.Place the speakers so the distance from the back wall(measured from the front of the loudspeakers)with the distance from the side walls(measured from the center of the woofer) and the distance from ceiling(measured from the top of the loudspeakers)are not equal.As for sitting exactly at the apex of the equilateral position,do experiment with that by moving your seat back and forth a bit until everything snaps into place.

[DaveK]

I'd be delighted to, Dave, and I second Donkey Walker's suggestion if that's a possibility. We've all been there before. No pain, no gain. So that I can reply responsibly, kindly tell me/us what kind of speakers you are using. Thanks.

Hi Jim,
Thanks for your input. My speakers are new Mordaunt Short Mezzo 2, (in Light Oak if it makes any difference :)) If you are not familiar with them they are not the usual rectangular box shape, the rear of the box is 'boat tailed', (much narrower than the front), and the sides are convex, widest point 1/3 way between front and back, and the tweeter sits near the top with the upper 1/4 raised above the rest of the box top, (floating, I think they call it).


Hi Yiangos,
"First-of-all.decouple the speakers from the stands using bluetac. Four small round blobs of bluetac between the base of the speakers and the stands will do the trick."
I have been advised to do this in a previous posting but I have not yet done it, mainly because the speakers (see above) came ready fitted with a small rubber pad, 8mm diameter by 3mm thick (approx), stuck in each corner. I assumed that MS had taken care of the de-coupling using these pads so I didn't bother adding the blu-tack - mistake??

Thanks again to you both.
Cheers,

[jimdgoulding]

Sexy looking speakers there, Dave, and with some technology at work. Dovetailing the cabinet is meant to reduce standing waves in your enclosure and having your tweeter sit somewhat atop your cabinet is meant to reduce diffraction. SOME diffraction. Were I to make what I make for your speakers they would follow the contour of your tweeter mounting plate (tho nearer the driver) below the top of your cabinet and extend out to the edges of your cabinet and to the top of the mounting basket of your mid/bass driver. Then you would have NO reflection off your baffles and no discontinuity to info produced by your tweeters. But, honestly, while I am confident you'd be the happier for it, I can't say that is why you are hearing your speakers as sources. From the looks of them, I wouldn't think you would be. But, I am curious about the possibility of a discontinuity to the output of your tweeters- well, not actually the output, rather what happens to it- having them split that way.

Talk to us about your toe-in, the distance to your listening position, what, if anything (eek!), is between you and your speakers. Your disc player in phase? All your wire correctly hooked up? And a photo or a diagram would be most helpful if you could provide it.

Btw, those stands on the Mezzo page at the site are Atacama's and cost only about a hundred bucks US.

[Yiangos]

Hi Dave

I wouldn't call it "a mistake" but it wouldn't hurt to try.The reason i asked you to place blutac underneath them,is because you said the feeling of the sound of the speaker's sound to "dissappear" was lost.Actually,other than placing them correctly and decouple them from their stands,is to make they are properly connected,ie. the red(+) cable from the amp to the red(+) cable of the speaker etc.

[DaveK]

Hi Jim,
Thanks for the feedback and sorry for the delay in respondding. This response is by way of being a 'holding operaion' until I can get round to giving you a full response to your request for further information. I am very interested in any advice you may give which might improve my listening experience, so I aim to give you a fully detailed drawing of the room. My Listening Room (otherwise known as the lounge or main living room) is a most unusual shape and construction, which must have an adverse effect on the accoustics. Tonight I have taken a few key measurements and will try and turn them into some sort of understandable layout drawing for you ASAP.
I offer my provisional response to some of your information, in blue, below.


Sexy looking speakers there, Dave, and with some technology at work. Dovetailing the cabinet is meant to reduce standing waves in your enclosure and having your tweeter sit somewhat atop your cabinet is meant to reduce diffraction. SOME diffraction. Were I to make what I make for your speakers they would follow the contour of your tweeter mounting plate (tho nearer the driver) below the top of your cabinet and extend out to the edges of your cabinet and to the top of the mounting basket of your mid/bass driver. Out of interest, what would such a package cost, shipped to UK, and would it be necessary to get into the speaker cabinets to install them as there does not appear to be any ready way in that I can see, no screws or other fastenings. Then you would have NO reflection off your baffles and no discontinuity to info produced by your tweeters. But, honestly, while I am confident you'd be the happier for it, I can't say that is why you are hearing your speakers as sources. From the looks of them, I wouldn't think you would be. But, I am curious about the possibility of a discontinuity to the output of your tweeters- well, not actually the output, rather what happens to it- having them split that way.

Talk to us about your toe-in, the distance to your listening position, what, if anything (eek!), is between you and your speakers. Speakers are 8' apart and the listening position is 8' away from each. Toe in is such that each speaker is 'aimed at' the listening position. Tweeter centre is 40" from floor (ear height when listening). I have tried a variety of combiations of toe in and distance from back wall - thes have made some differences but I am yet to find a 'sweet spot'. Your disc player in phase? I haven't a clue as to what that might mean or involve but I can advise that most of my listening is sourced from a Sony Vaio MM PC, mixtures of compressed and uncompressed files, USB 2.0 routed through a Beresford 7520 DAC to a Marantz PM6010OSE KI amp and no matter what is the source (TT, DVD-A, CD or PC), it doesn't seem to make any difference to that aspect of the listening experience. All your wire correctly hooked up? To the best of my knowledge. I have used one of those 'Set Up Your Hi-Fi' CDs which told me everything was fine. And a photo or a diagram would be most helpful if you could provide it. On their way but it might take a day or two.

Btw, those stands on the Mezzo page at the site are Atacama's and cost only about a hundred bucks US. My stands are home made, from pine, design copied from RC60 de luxe stands which got a decent write up in the UK press. Had to go this way due to WAF - she doesn't like 'industrial, oil rig' looking bits of metal in her home :), which is fair enough !

That's about it for the moment but will be in touch later with more info.
Thanks again and
Cheers,

[DaveK]

Hi again Jim,
I despair ever understanding the subject of 'audiophilia'. My background loosely is in engineering so I better understand things when I can understand the logic behind it. Unfortunately 'audiophilia' is a black art which defies logic, IMHO.
Since I last posted I have been listening to PC sourced tracks, and moved the speakers out about a foot from the back wall, which is my usual listening position for the speakers, but by mistake, when doing this I managed to get them 'too much' toe in such that they 'aimed' to intersect about 2 to 3 feet in front of my ears. Lo and behold, the speakers have nearly 'disappeared' again.
I daren't move them again at the moment and am just enjoying the experience of being one step near audio Nirvana, but my plan is to get some masking tape to temporarily mark their current position so that I can carry out further, (hopefully minor, but who knows with this subject :scratch: ), tweaks. The whole b----y subject is beyond me !!!.
Cheers,

[jimdgoulding]

Dave- Hi. Thanks for the conversion for we yanks. As I may have said previously, your stage will expand and your speakers image better, themselves disappearing better, if your speakers were out further from the back wall. But, you want to keep your triangle with your speakers equidistant like you've described. To make matters more inconvenient, there shouldn't be anything bulky between your listening position and your speakers, as well.

My product will damp the reflective surface adjacent to your tweeters and your cabinet edges where waveforms are arbitrarily re-launched. The link below is to an animated illustration of what I am talking about. The blue lines contain information your system is resolving. The red and green lines are redundant and arrive out of time and phase. This should be audible for you once my product is in place. It attaches to your speakers' baffle surface with removable Velcro tabs. The pads will reduce the strength of waveforms above your crossover traveling to and from your nearby walls, also. Your cost is $55.95US plus $7.50 for shipping overseas. You may try them out for thirty days and return them for a full refund if you don't hear an appreciable improvement to things.

http://www.silcom.com/~aludwig/images/diffdem.gif

My site address for info and reviewer and customer capsules: www.diffractionbegone.com

[DaveK]

Thanks Jim for the detailed response. I can follow the logic behind your product, and the price and 30 day exchange policy make it easy to give them a try.
But, (there's always a but, unfortunately !), I have the WAF to contend with. :steam: Because of this the speaker gauze covers have to be in place (or at least replaceable, over your product, when speakers are not in use), and there just isn't room for anything thicker than a piece of tissue paper between the gauze frame and the front 'plate' of the speaker box.
When I get the time I'll convert my room measurements into a layout diagram of my (unique) listening area to solicit any suggestions you or others may have. The main suggestion that I am expecting is "Take up knitting" !! :lolsign:
Thanks again,
Cheers,

[jimdgoulding]

Thanks Jim for the detailed response. I can follow the logic behind your product, and the price and 30 day exchange policy make it easy to give them a try.
But, (there's always a but, unfortunately !), I have the WAF to contend with. :steam: Because of this the speaker gauze covers have to be in place (or at least replaceable, over your product, when speakers are not in use), and there just isn't room for anything thicker than a piece of tissue paper between the gauze frame and the front 'plate' of the speaker box.
When I get the time I'll convert my room measurements into a layout diagram of my (unique) listening area to solicit any suggestions you or others may have. The main suggestion that I am expecting is "Take up knitting" !! :lolsign:
Thanks again,
Cheers,

Listen well. Best. Jim

[roscoeiii]

For matters such as speaker placement and so many more areas of audio set-up, I have benefitted immeasurably from Jim Smith's book "Get Better Sound." His suggestions can border on revelatory, and he has nice clear illustrations in addition to discussions of how to deal with less than ideal spaces.

[DaveK]

For matters such as speaker placement and so many more areas of audio set-up, I have benefitted immeasurably from Jim Smith's book "Get Better Sound." His suggestions can border on revelatory, and he has nice clear illustrations in addition to discussions of how to deal with less than ideal spaces.

Good Morning roscoeiii,
Thanks for the pointer. I have done a Google search for this book and my results are that it is only available in the USA (Amazon.com). Two used paperback copies are available from different sellers, one priced at $75 and the other at $150, plus $12.50 for international shipping. I would take an awful lot of persuasion to pay these sort of prices for a second hand paperback book on any subject, unless it was a Shakespeare first edition !!:lol:
I think that I will persist with trial and error, and free guidance from other forum members - good progress has been made so far following this path.
Thanks again,

[REM]

Hi DaveC

There are reviews here

http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue40/bettersound.htm

and here

http://www.sixmoons.com/audioreviews/getbettersound/getbettersound.html

and you can buy it from his own website (what a surprise) here

http://www.getbettersound.com/

Looks like Amazon are 'avin a larf, innit. Still not cheap though, HTH

Cheers

[DaveK]

Hi Ralph,
Thanks for the info. $44.50 + P&P is much better than $150 + P&P but still not cheap. I propose (and I'm looking for seconders :)) that the forum starts a lending library for members and starts with this book - I'll volunteer to write the first forum review :).
If funds ever get back to respectable I might invest and then rent it out to other members for $10 per week - anybody interested?
Cheers,
Dave.