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shane
16-06-2009, 17:30
Chuck away your Troughlines chaps. The government has just announced that all local and national radio broadcasting will be digital by 2015.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2009/jun/16/digital-britain-analogue-radio-switchoff

:steam:

twelvebears
16-06-2009, 17:35
You know even though I don't own a tuner myself, I thought of all you guys when I heard this on (non-digital) radio on the way home... :(

RobHolt
16-06-2009, 17:45
I'll make the placards if someone can arrange the megaphones and leaflets.

Take to the streets - SAVE FM!

Spectral Morn
16-06-2009, 17:48
I can't begin to type what I really want to say. Its about greed nothing more but what is going to happen to 10/hundreds of thousands of perfectly good FM radios. So our government care about the environment give me a break.

If DAB sounded better than FM it would not be quite as bad....but it is SHIT. DAB+ might be better but who's heard it. I suggest we get a campaign going. You can leave your comments on this official site but will they listen. Contact your local MP complain bombard the government web-sites.


ITS ABOUT SOUND QUALITY.....


Leave comments here...http://digitalbritainforum.org.uk/house-rules/ I have...






:steam::steam::steam::steam::steam::steam::steam: D S D L


PS lets make them pay for this.....compensation for our useless collections. But they can't because the sound is SHITE.

REM
16-06-2009, 17:55
Don't forget AM is being consigned to the dust bin of history as well, just think of all those with their lovingly restored old bakelite table top sets.
Another reason for turning into a grumpy old git I suppose:steam::steam:

ps no mention in the Groiniad about what happens to the national emergency channel which I understand is LW or the national time signal also broadcast (I think) on LW:confused:

DSJR
16-06-2009, 17:57
DAB as originally conceived IS better than FM. 256Mb/s being fine for practically everything apparently. but the broadcasters settled on 192, which means that the sources played must be of the highest quality or the added distortion will confuse the system (as do some presenters' voices apparently, so I read). of course, the number of channels overtook any quality issues and the compression added to most stations at source finished off the annihilation of any sound quality - as happened with "freeview TV and the crushed contrast we now live with - little to no cream tones or dark greys for that matter!"

I HAVE heard DAB done as right as possible on some radio 3 concerts and through a neutral system it can sound simply awsome. A shame I don't listen to radio 3 that often..

I wonder who'll buy all these tuners we have when they cannot be used in the UK?

Spectral Morn
16-06-2009, 18:01
Imagine that they were going to ban VINYL or VALVES.


Guys lets fight.....

PETITION the government....... NOW



:steam::steam::steam::steam::steam: D S D L

Spectral Morn
16-06-2009, 18:04
DAB as originally conceived IS better than FM. 256Mb/s being fine for practically everything apparently. but the broadcasters settled on 192, which means that the sources played must be of the highest quality or the added distortion will confuse the system (as do some presenters' voices apparently, so I read). of course, the number of channels overtook any quality issues and the compression added to most stations at source finished off the annihilation of any sound quality - as happened with "freeview TV and the crushed contrast we now live with - little to no cream tones or dark greys for that matter!"

I HAVE heard DAB done as right as possible on some radio 3 concerts and through a neutral system it can sound simply awsome. A shame I don't listen to radio 3 that often..

I wonder who'll buy all these tuners we have when they cannot be used in the UK?

Dave..... FM is beter than DAB. The problems with DAB are numerous. Millions of working items for the scrap heap. Come on lets give a damn about this.


:steam::steam::steam::steam::steam::steam::steam:: steam::steam::steam::steam::steam:


D S D L.... its WAR.

NRG
16-06-2009, 20:08
So that will render all the millions of FM car radios obsolete in a little over 5 years time....hmmm....me thinks there will be some reconsideration...my car has an inbuilt to the dash radio...it can't be swapped out, I think there will be some push back on this.

Tony Moore
16-06-2009, 20:14
Perhaps they'll give us a few thousand to scrap the cars that have FM radios...all to help the economy...:lolsign:

StanleyB
16-06-2009, 20:46
Ah well. I guess that I'll be listening to pirate FM stations or the induction noises from the car engine from 2015 onwards.

Any news on when they are going to abolish elections as well?

Mike
16-06-2009, 20:51
Any news on when they are going to abolish elections as well?

Right after the revolution! :mex:

The Grand Wazoo
16-06-2009, 22:54
Well, we were assured by some that it wouldn't happen, but now we know that it will, as many of us were convinced it would.

There's no way we could sway the opinion of a narrow-minded Government to change such a piffling (to those who make such decisions) matter. And after all, who advises them on the technical side of such things - the BBC, who have another agenda and who (corporately) shamefully would not know good sound if it snuck up from behind them & gave them a swift kick up the wazoo.

So, what are our REAL options?

Is it possible to cheaply convert an FM antenna (which some of us have invested in) to respond to DAB input.

Can someone make a half decent DAB front end that will then transit the signal in FM to my much cherished tuner & receiver collection, so at least it'll feel like I'm still getting the pride of ownership that I bought them for in the first place?

Just a few thoughts............

Spectral Morn
16-06-2009, 23:11
Well, we were assured by some that it wouldn't happen, but now we know that it will, as many of us were convinced it would.

There's no way we could sway the opinion of a narrow-minded Government to change such a piffling (to those who make such decisions) matter. And after all, who advises them on the technical side of such things - the BBC, who have another agenda and who (corporately) shamefully would not know good sound if it snuck up from behind them & gave them a swift kick up the wazoo.

So, what are our REAL options?

Is it possible to cheaply convert an FM antenna (which some of us have invested in) to respond to DAB input.

Can someone make a half decent DAB front end that will then transit the signal in FM to my much cherished tuner & receiver collection, so at least it'll feel like I'm still getting the pride of ownership that I bought them for in the first place?

Just a few thoughts............

Shite in Shite out probably. But if someone where able to do such a thing...but would it sound okay? I think the best bet is to have a revolt.

We will never vote for you again (oops thats happened and they still don't get it)

Not pay the TV licence (after the Digital Britain report woops our money will now go to help ITV WHAT !!!!!!. Let them pay for it themselves...thats why they are commercial)

We start pirate FM radio stations. (Digital Britain nope Piracy is going...yes right.)

Campaign...tell everyone how much this will cost in scraped radios extra power (DAB sucks more juice and Batteries) Is it green to scrap millions of car, portable radios, hi-fi, getto blasters, AV amps that don't have DAB.

Bombard the BBC with letters and E-mails of complaint....as well as the government.


Better not write that one Quantanmos not closed yet....never know who's reading this :scratch::lol:


We fight .....


Regards D S D L:lol:

The Grand Wazoo
16-06-2009, 23:27
Shite in Shite out probably. But if someone where able to do such a thing...but would it sound okay? I think the best bet is to have a revolt.

We will never vote for you again (oops thats happened and they still don't get it)

Not pay the TV licence (after the Digital Britain report woops our money will now go to help ITV WHAT !!!!!!. Let them pay for it themselves...thats why they are commercial)

We start pirate FM radio stations. (Digital Britain nope Piracy is going...yes right.)

Campaign...tell everyone how much this will cost in scraped radios extra power (DAB sucks more juice and Batteries) Is it green to scrap millions of car, portable radios, hi-fi, getto blasters, AV amps that don't have DAB.

Bombard the BBC with letters and E-mails of complaint....as well as the government.


Better not write that one Quantanmos not closed yet....never know who's reading this :scratch::lol:


We fight .....


Regards D S D L:lol:

Neil,

Campaigning will not work - I'll certainly be writing to everyone I know of who may pass on my disgust, but I'll only be registering a minority opinion about something that's already written in stone.

Sad, but true I'm afraid, matey.

Spectral Morn
16-06-2009, 23:36
Neil,

Campaigning will not work - I'll certainly be writing to everyone I know of who may pass on my disgust, but I'll only be registering a minority opinion about something that's already written in stone.

Sad, but true I'm afraid, matey.

If everyone were made to think of the actual cost to us (not sure sound quality argument will activate enough opinion but MONEY) all of us and raise the green issues....we might create a big enough wave to cause the government to think again. Problem is we need a French mentality instead of the attitude of Sheep.

If the campaign were big enough....who knows.


Regards D S D L

The Grand Wazoo
16-06-2009, 23:52
If everyone were made to think of the actual cost to us (not sure sound quality argument will activate enough opinion but MONEY) all of us and raise the green issues....we might create a big enough wave to cause the government to think again. Problem is we need a French mentality instead of the attitude of Sheep.

If the campaign were big enough....who knows.


Regards D S D L

That's exactly my point, mate.
We're a minority, therefore, the campaign will never be big enough.

The sheep are the ones who don't know or care about sound quality - if it's a new technology & digital at that, sold to us by the Govt. & Aunty Beeb and not just the corpo-grabbers, then surely, it must be good, mustn't it?

This Government is not green & never will be - they're trying to make us buy electric cars in the name of the environment for God's sake.

Barry
17-06-2009, 00:02
Hi All,

Well it looks like I've only got 5 years to get the best out of my newly acquired Troughline! :(

Dave (DSJR), the only reason Radio 3 sounds 'reasonable' is because it is the only UK station broadcasting at 192Kps. UK broadcasters can use 32 - 192Kps per channel. Most of the UK DAB uses 128Kps and certainly uses the lowest bit rate in Europe if not the World! :steam:

http://www.digitalradiotech.co.uk/dab/worldwide_dab.htm

Chris (TGW), DAB radio uses the frequency band 218.64 - 229.07 MHz, approximately double that used for FM, so unless you are in a high signal strength region yor existing FM aerial will not work very well. As to concocting a set of electronics to decode DAB and then use an FM modulator to feed an existing FM tuner - I'm sure it can be done, but why bother? - the incoming DAB signal will be crap anyway. :(

Regards
Barry

The Grand Wazoo
17-06-2009, 00:05
Chris (TGW), DAB radio uses the frequency band 218.64 - 229.07 MHz, approximately double that used for FM, so unless you are in a high signal strength region yor existing FM aerial will not work very well. As to concocting a set of electronics to decode DAB and then use an FM modulator to feed an existing FM tuner - I'm sure it can be done, but why bother? - the incoming DAB signal will be crap anyway. :(

Regards
Barry

Appreciated, Barry,
..........But since crap is all that will be available, I might like to listen to that crap on my lovely old Accuphase, Sansui (x2), Leak, Pioneer & Yamaha kit!!!

The Vinyl Adventure
17-06-2009, 00:15
i hate to take this thread away from the point but if only we could all get together and and petition the government about maters the are truly important!
dont get me wrong its a shame the fm is going to die out but i would say the constant infringment of our human rights and the complete lack of transparency in our government are bigger issues that could do with being atended to first.
the overwhelming consensus that there is nothing we can do to change what our governing bodys do is what makes us sheep. as a nation i can confortably say that we are a huge bunch of apathetic morons and i will hold my hand up and say i am right there in moron land
the only people who seem to be getting a say are the people who take major issue with imigration and look what sort of crazyness that has caused ... the bnp actually have a level of power! the f***ing rasist bnp!!!

sorry to get on my soap box (im still having a bad week) i just thought id add a bit of perspective

also dont get me wrong i would sign a petition to stop the death of fm. but if you guys can get so heated about such a fact then maybe you should consior a different type of revolution

The Grand Wazoo
17-06-2009, 00:28
the overwhelming consensus that there is nothing we can do to change what our governing bodys do is what makes us sheep. as a nation i can confortably say that we are a huge bunch of apathetic morons and i will hold my hand up and say i am right there in moron land
the only people who seem to be getting a say are the people who take major issue with imigration and look what sort of crazyness that has caused ... the bnp actually have a level of power! the f***ing rasist bnp!!!

........ if you guys can get so heated about such a fact then maybe you should consior a different type of revolution

Hamish,
I agree with you on your principle, and to an extent, yes, we are a nation of sheep, but this is heightened by the fact that when there truly is a big issue that a majority care about, we are ignored.

Witness the anti-war demonstration - the biggest demo in the documented history of our country, which was brushed off as though it was a single guy with a placard in front of the House of Commons campaigning against the price of butter.


After that, it's no surprise there's a little cynicism about the 'democratic voice of the people'.

So what chance do you think our splutterings about the things you mention might have of being treated as we would wish - never mind FM radio transmissions?

The Vinyl Adventure
17-06-2009, 00:35
i completly agree with you! the only possible way out of the appaling situation this country has got into is by revolution. unfortunatly we are so institutionaly 'sheep' it will never happen

me and my as equally lefty missis have decied the only way out is to emigrate. we have both agreed that we will without hesitation leave as soon as they bring in id cards... if we can get out the country without one

The Vinyl Adventure
17-06-2009, 00:40
well i might happen... a more left or far right party might get in but look at the choices
green party - more worried about the bloody polar bears that would have bloody died out in the end anyway... global warming is after all a natual ocurance mealy brought on slightly sooner by the fraction of a percent extra crap we put into the air
the bnp - ........ i wont rant anymore

Steve Toy
17-06-2009, 00:52
The government are making a lot of long-term plans right now. They want to look as though they will still be in office by then. I doubt they will.

It might be better to lobby the current opposition for they will almost certainly be in power soon.

My hunch is that FM is here to stay but I would still be pissed off if I'd bought a decent FM tuner.

2015 is a long way off and a week is still a long time in politics - this IS political!

REM
17-06-2009, 18:08
Can someone make a half decent DAB front end that will then transit the signal in FM to my much cherished tuner & receiver collection, so at least it'll feel like I'm still getting the pride of ownership that I bought them for in the first place?

Just a few thoughts............

Hi Chris

It's meant for in car use and probably doesn't sound very good but it looks like it's been done

http://www.pure.com/digitalradio/index.asp?Category=In-Car

So, with a bit of refinement, who knows, hope on the horizon maybe?

The Grand Wazoo
17-06-2009, 18:17
Hi Chris

It's meant for in car use and probably doesn't sound very good but it looks like it's been done

http://www.pure.com/digitalradio/index.asp?Category=In-Car

So, with a bit of refinement, who knows, hope on the horizon maybe?

WELL, SH*T ME BRITCHES!!
As usual, I was dreaming of the royalties I'd get from selling the idea, when someones already done it.

Surely it's not beyond the wit of someone to make something that can use that principle & sound 1/2 decent?

The Vinyl Adventure
17-06-2009, 19:19
its not bad that thing, it sticks to the window of your car with a big sucker on a bendy stick and you can plug a ipod i to it to
i havent heard one though and it is slightly tipical low end pure kit plasticy
great idea though!!

Barry
17-06-2009, 23:02
Good evening everyone,

I have been following this thread with some interest. So as to be quite clear what we are all talking about, I suggest that interested parties take a look at

www.digitalradio.co.uk/dab/

and links therein.

It would seem that if and when (and here I tend to agree with Steve Toy on this - or is it me clutching at straws?) analogue radio is switched off, a better approach might be through the use of either Freeview or D-Sat, since both offer faster data rates than DAB. Again see the above cited website for information. I plan to listen to Radio 3 on Freeview over the next few weeks to try and assess the quality. It won't be a direct comparison, as the whole system is obviously connected to the TV (in a separate room), and uses a pair of Eltax bookshelf speakers driven by a Quad 33/303 amplifier. If the results are favorable I will then transfer my Quad FM3 tuner for direct comparison. I think FM reception in my area is sufficiently strong so as to be able to use the Band IV TV aerial. Obviously this will be mis-tuned to the tuner, but if the signal strength is large enough, will work.

Hamish, I am sympathetic to your political leanings and admire the strength of your feeling; however judging by the rubbish people are prepared to watch on TV and the near ubiquitious use of iPods and MP3 players, the majority of the general public do not seem to be interested in good sound quality or any quality. It is we who are in the minority and are unlikely to have any 'clout'. On the 6 o'clock news tonight, it was mentioned that 'some listeners are dissatisfied with the quality of DAB radio' but that alone would not impede the drive towards the full uptake of DAB. At the moment only about 20% of the UK possess a digital radio; it is said that it will require that figure to be at least 50% before analogue switch-off is confirmed.

Regarding the use of the in-car gizmos to recieve DAB and relay it to the FM car radio, well I didn't know such things as imagined by Chris (TGW) existed (sorry Chris, no patent royalties for you!). I have done a quick search on Amazon and these beasts get quite mixed reviews: mostly concerning build quality and reception, no-one commented on the sound. My take on the use of these devices is that

(1) you would need to feed them with a good signal using either a special Yagi design or a quarter-wave car aerial (the type you see on taxis)

and

(2) owing to the very limited transmit power these devices are allowed, the DAB receiver would need to be in close proximity to the FM tuner. This would probably require the use of an indoor aerial, such as a 300 Ohm ribbon design.

Regards
Barry

Labarum
17-06-2009, 23:42
This site should be watched

http://www.digitalradiotech.co.uk/

A properly implemented digital radio system is not to be feared - but the BBC has been chasing quantity over quality.

Through my Standac my Virgin Media box receiving 192 Kb/s MP2 is at least as good as my Quad 77 tuner. When feeding the Standac, the high bitrate international classical radio stations my Squeezbox receives using various codecs betters my Quad 77 Tuner.

Spectral Morn
22-06-2009, 10:04
Good evening everyone,

I have been following this thread with some interest. So as to be quite clear what we are all talking about, I suggest that interested parties take a look at

www.digitalradio.co.uk/dab/

and links therein.

It would seem that if and when (and here I tend to agree with Steve Toy on this - or is it me clutching at straws?) analogue radio is switched off, a better approach might be through the use of either Freeview or D-Sat, since both offer faster data rates than DAB. Again see the above cited website for information. I plan to listen to Radio 3 on Freeview over the next few weeks to try and assess the quality. It won't be a direct comparison, as the whole system is obviously connected to the TV (in a separate room), and uses a pair of Eltax bookshelf speakers driven by a Quad 33/303 amplifier. If the results are favorable I will then transfer my Quad FM3 tuner for direct comparison. I think FM reception in my area is sufficiently strong so as to be able to use the Band IV TV aerial. Obviously this will be mis-tuned to the tuner, but if the signal strength is large enough, will work.

Hamish, I am sympathetic to your political leanings and admire the strength of your feeling; however judging by the rubbish people are prepared to watch on TV and the near ubiquitious use of iPods and MP3 players, the majority of the general public do not seem to be interested in good sound quality or any quality. It is we who are in the minority and are unlikely to have any 'clout'. On the 6 o'clock news tonight, it was mentioned that 'some listeners are dissatisfied with the quality of DAB radio' but that alone would not impede the drive towards the full uptake of DAB. At the moment only about 20% of the UK possess a digital radio; it is said that it will require that figure to be at least 50% before analogue switch-off is confirmed.

Regarding the use of the in-car gizmos to recieve DAB and relay it to the FM car radio, well I didn't know such things as imagined by Chris (TGW) existed (sorry Chris, no patent royalties for you!). I have done a quick search on Amazon and these beasts get quite mixed reviews: mostly concerning build quality and reception, no-one commented on the sound. My take on the use of these devices is that

(1) you would need to feed them with a good signal using either a special Yagi design or a quarter-wave car aerial (the type you see on taxis)

and

(2) owing to the very limited transmit power these devices are allowed, the DAB receiver would need to be in close proximity to the FM tuner. This would probably require the use of an indoor aerial, such as a 300 Ohm ribbon design.

Regards
Barry

Hi Barry

I have tried free view and Sky as a platform for radio feeding the signal into a Musical Fidelity Tri-vista 21 dac, Micromega Dialog, Moon Andromeda digital input(internal DAC) and all sound poorer than a Revox FM tuner or (by a larger margin) a Leak Trough-Line FM tuner.

Free-view and more so Sky has a higher bit rate than DAB but are still not as good as FM. Again we have a situation were the specs don't tell the whole story. I tried a £1500 Musical Fidelity DAB radio (for very little money once again MF could not sell them...to dear for crap DAB). I could not have lived with it. Sky and an external DAC was better...I gave it back.

The specs for FM indicate that it should be possible to better it but so far to my ears nothing has, even DAB at full bit rates (which is what it should be rather than cut to tripe to fit lots of radio stations in) or Sky and a very dear DAC.

Has anyone here on AOS heard DAB+ ?


Regards D S D L

Labarum
22-06-2009, 10:32
I do again invite folk to listen to HiBit Internet radio. I have previously posted my full list of Classical Music Favourites, which I stream with a Squeezebox.

A live concert from eastern Europe coded in OGG can be very very good.

D-dur (Czech Republic)
http://www.rozhlas.cz/audio/download/ddur_maxogg.m3u
OGG at 224kbps

Vltava (Czech Republic)
http://radio.cesnet.cz/cgi-bin/cro3-256-ogg.pls
OGG at 256kbps

Devνn (Slovakia)
http://live.slovakradio.sk:8000/Devin_256.ogg
OGG at 256kbps

Labarum
22-06-2009, 10:40
Hi Barry

Has anyone here on AOS heard DAB+ ?



This Internet Stream at 128 AAC+ ought to give you an indication

Title: WFMT Chicago 128 AAC+
URL: http://wttw.ic.llnwd.net/stream/wttw_wfmt_livebroadcast

I am listening now on my Squeezebox

niklasthedolphin
22-06-2009, 13:09
DAB=Dead Audio Broadcasting

Most countries, in particular those with mountains and valleys spread around, have given up on DAB in it's existing form.

DAB were clasified better than FM if used in it's best quality.
The FM compared to in this case is already digital encoded with a resolution of somewhere between 64-192 kb/s.

What us with the great analogue FM tuners want back is the Analog FM broadcasting from microfone to end-user.
In particular those live shows with classical or jazz music from the old days.
They sometimes were produced on the fly in a quality that surpassed all digital technology (off course), LP's and even recorded music of any kind.

Never mind the frequency limitation of 20 kHz; which later on went down to 15 kHz with a silly excuse of a pilot tone at 19 kHz - hello - we have steep MPX filters for that build into not only the tape decks but also the high quality FM tuners.

There are other qualities than frquency response that made the old days FM transmissions worth listening to.
It was really so good that you could be fooled to believe being present on location where the mic's were in position.

Anyway, there will be plenty of others taking over on the analog FM band, I bet.

So it's still worth going for one of the three best tuners of all time:
Tandberg TPT 3001A
Day Sequerra Studio one
Magnum Dynalab MD-109

"dolph"

Marco
22-06-2009, 13:22
Dolph, any thoughts on the question I asked you on the cassette thread?

I would appreciate your opinion :)

Marco.

Spectral Morn
22-06-2009, 13:36
DAB=Dead Audio Broadcasting

I agree...


Most countries, in particular those with mountains and valleys spread around, have given up on DAB in it's existing form.

Quite a lot of the UK- Scotland, Lake district, Wales to name a few awkward areas, have quite mountainous zones...how are they going to get radio ?


DAB were clasified better than FM if used in it's best quality.
The FM compared to in this case is already digital encoded with a resolution of somewhere between 64-192 kb/s.

I have tried to make the best of these figures and by adding a DAC to Sky, Free-View and a DAB radio but it still sounded poor.


What us with the great analogue FM tuners want back is the Analog FM broadcasting from microfone to end-user.
In particular those live shows with classical or jazz music from the old days.
They sometimes were produced on the fly in a quality that surpassed all digital technology (off course), LP's and even recorded music of any kind.

Never mind the frequency limitation of 20 kHz; which later on went down to 15 kHz with a silly excuse of a pilot tone at 19 kHz - hello - we have steep MPX filters for that build into not only the tape decks but also the high quality FM tuners.

There are other qualities than frquency response that made the old days FM transmissions worth listening to.
It was really so good that you could be fooled to believe being present on location where the mic's were in position.

In an ideal world but where quality counts the bean pushers don't give a toss. So its highly unlikely to occur ever again. The BBC which used to stand for quality sound have sold their souls to the devil called DAB yuck !


Anyway, there will be plenty of others taking over on the analog FM band, I bet.

Doubtful the UK government want to sell all of this on....anyone fancy audiophile pirate radio for the UK ?


So it's still worth going for one of the three best tuners of all time:
Tandberg TPT 3001A
Day Sequerra Studio one
Magnum Dynalab MD-109

Indeed maybe a few months before the end these will all be for buttons....

Regards D S D L

niklasthedolphin
22-06-2009, 13:49
I agree...



Quite a lot of the UK- Scotland, Lake district, Wales to name a few awkward areas, have quite mountainous zones...how are they going to get radio ?



I have tried to make the best of these figures and by adding a DAC to Sky, Free-View and a DAB radio but it still sounded poor.



In an ideal world but where quality counts the bean pushers don't give a toss. So its highly unlikely to occur ever again. The BBC which used to stand for quality sound have sold their souls to the devil called DAB yuck !



Doubtful the UK government want to sell all of this on....anyone fancy audiophile pirate radio for the UK ?



Indeed maybe a few months before the end these will all be for buttons....

Regards D S D L

I'm not from UK myself.
I will emigrate from DK, where I live, to those parts of the world with best FM.
;-)

"dolph"

Labarum
24-06-2009, 11:56
I am signed up to http://www.digitalradiotech.co.uk/

From time to time I get a "Newsletter" email. This has just arrived:



Apologies for not sending a newsletter for a long time, but as you'll no doubt have heard the BBC bullies are trying to force DAB upon us (the BBC lobbied the Government to set an early FM switch-off date, so the Government merely did what the BBC recommended, so the BBC is to blame, IMO), so I think now would be a good time to start sending newsletters again.


*** Mark Thompson to appear on The Media Show on R4 tomorrow re FM switch-off ***

BBC Director-General Mark Thompson is appearing on The Media Show tomorrow at 1.30pm where he will apparently be answering questions about FM switch off. So if you're not overly ecstatic about the decision to inflict low audio quality on the entire population via DAB, you can send your views to The Media Show via the following web contact form:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/features/the-media-show/contact/


*** Radio 4 Feedback asking for listeners' comments on FM switch-off ***

In the latest edition of Feedback on Radio 4, they also asked people to send their views about the plans to switch off FM.

Feedback has continually ignored the fact that there's a problem with DAB's sound quality over the last few years, either because they don't realise that the poor audio quality is an entirely separate issue to that of having poor reception quality, or they've simply swallowed the BBC's dishonest spin on the subject. So now would be a good time to remind them that there is still a problem.

You can send your messages to Feedback via this web form:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/features/feedback/contact/


*** FM switch-off on You & Yours ***

If you're not already peed off about FM being switched off, the following recording of an interview with the chief exec of the DRDB (Digital Radio Development Bureau) Tony Moretta, promoting DAB and justifying why it's fine to switch off FM in 2015, will likely do the trick. His interview starts 34 mins 40 seconds into the programme on the iPlayer:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00l36gn/You_and_Yours_23_06_2009/

The DRDB is co-funded by the BBC, and the BBC's Director of Radio Tim Davie is the Vice Chair of the DRDB, yet this bloke seems to think that's it's perfectly acceptable to lie on Radio 4 to millions of listeners. For example, he claims that DAB+ only offers "very, very slightly higher quality" than DAB. That is simply a bare faced lie. And when asked whether the UK is using a less advanced system than the rest of Europe, the first thing he says is that that's an "urban myth". Er, no, it seriously isn't an urban myth, it is a stone cold fact of life. It may be an uncomfortable truth for the DAB supporters, but that's no excuse to lie on Radio 4, especially when the public are paying part of his wages.

Happy listening.


*** Save FM Campaign started ***

I'd also like to draw your attention to the new "Save FM Campaign" website:

http://www.savefm.org/

It's only just launched, so it only consists of the home page at the moment, but more content will be added soon.

The main aim of the campaign is to stop the BBC switching off its national FM stations, although it will also be campaigning for the BBC to switch from using DAB to DAB+ by the time FM is switched off if the BBC does intend to switch off its FM stations - by deinition the vast majority of digital radios would support DAB+ by then, so there is absolutely no justification to continue broadcasting using a 20-year old system - which would be around 30 years old by the time FM could be switched off (I don't think FM could be switched off until around 2020).

There is justifiably a lot of anger about the plans to switch off FM, mainly because the vast majority of people simply don't want it to happen as they're perfectly happy with FM, plus for a whole host of other reasons as well, obviously including the fact that DAB provides low audio quality. A few hundred people managed to stop the BBC switching off its Radio 4 Long Wave station, so given the number of listeners who would be opposed to the BBC switching off its national FM stations, hopefully it will be possible to convince the BBC to leave its national FM stations broadcasting.

The FM stations only cost around £10 million per annum to transmit, which is a small fraction of what it will cost to broadcast DAB nationally, and it's only 22 pence per adult per year, or 0.28% of the BBC's £3,600m annual revenue from the licence-fee. £10m per annum may be a big number when taken on its own, but it's peanuts to the BBC.


*** BBC's live Internet radio streams at higher quality than DAB & DAB+ ***

And finally, some good news. The BBC has finally launched its live AAC Internet radio streams, and it using 192 kbps AAC for Radio 3 and 128 kbps AAC for the other stereo streams. The same bit rates are being used for on-demand streams as for the live streams.

It's also possible to say that these streams are at higher quality than the BBC could ever deliver via DAB+, because of the simple fact that at the bit rates they're using the BBC stations wouldn't all be able to fit into the BBC's national DAB multiplex!

Listen to:




The Media Show

Wednesday 24 June
1:30pm - 2:00pm
BBC Radio 4

Spectral Morn
24-06-2009, 12:02
Excellent Brian

This is just the sort of info we and I need....war is now declared.


Regards D S D L

Barry
24-06-2009, 12:12
I am signed up to http://www.digitalradiotech.co.uk/

Listen to:.............

Will do (using a Leak Troughline).

Barry

Labarum
24-06-2009, 12:31
My view?

In days of yore live FM broadcast were better than vinyl, provided the outside broadcast link to the BBCs distribution system was good.

Modern digital technology ought to better an FM transmission, but often does not because of broadcasting authority imposed technical limitations.

I would be happy to embrace a well implemented DAB (DAB+), but that would require Band II bandwidth to be made available after FM switch off.

I note that rushing to switch off junks a lot of domestic electronics.

I also note that there is sufficient bandwidth on satellite to make radio available at studio quality.

We need to make sure we fight the next war not the last one.

Let's press for DAB+ at high bitrates for mobile/portable/car radio use, studio quality transmission via satellite for home use.

Media show starting now . . .

Labarum
24-06-2009, 12:33
Will do (using a Leak Troughline).

Barry


I am listening on my Squeezebox, but I could push a button on my DAC and get the stream off the Virgin Cable box!

My Quad FM tuner is upstairs in a wardrobe. FM reception at my house is useless.

Labarum
24-06-2009, 13:00
MMM

Agenda point on DAB quality not raised. Typical!

REM
24-06-2009, 13:02
My view?



Media show starting now . . .

The buggers ducked it, worse than a bunch of MPs at an expenses hearing:(:(

Barry
24-06-2009, 13:03
We was robbed!

No mention of DAB v analogue despite many listeners e-mails expressing concern over this. 'Due to lack of time ......' Hmm!

Disgruntled of Baddow
Barry

Labarum
24-06-2009, 13:06
This issue is of interest to a tiny minority.

128Kb/s at MP2 will sound better than FM on Dixon's Mini Stack.

That is why I say we should make sure we are fighting the right battle.

Spectral Morn
24-06-2009, 13:10
My view?

In days of yore live FM broadcast were better than vinyl, provided the outside broadcast link to the BBCs distribution system was good.

Modern digital technology ought to better an FM transmission, but often does not because of broadcasting authority imposed technical limitations.

I would be happy to embrace a well implemented DAB (DAB+), but that would require Band II bandwidth to be made available after FM switch off.

I note that rushing to switch off junks a lot of domestic electronics.

I also note that there is sufficient bandwidth on satellite to make radio available at studio quality.

We need to make sure we fight the next war not the last one.

Let's press for DAB+ at high bitrates for mobile/portable/car radio use, studio quality transmission via satellite for home use.

Media show starting now . . .

The difference hear for me is that analogue TV switch off does not make any of my electronics redundant. I can still use my CRT TV, S-VHS VCR, Hard Drive video recorder. Connecting a scart cable allows that, even those CRT TVs without scart can be hooked up via the RF aerial connector. The switch off of FM will render useless millions of car radios, millions of FM/AM/LW tuners in midi-systems and the like, millions of portable radios, millions of Gheto-Blasters, MP3 players with radios built in never mind the hundreds of thousands? of high quality FM radios...vintage and otherwise. With the current state of pensions,local finances etc, who will be able to pay for this ? Will the BBC/Government pay? Its also hardly green to do this all this perfectly good electronics going to landfill sites...shame.

I have 11 analogue radios in the house...stand alone and built in +the radio in the car.

The biggest issue though is sound quality regardless of current broadcasting quality FM still to my ear sounds best.


Regards D S D L

PS half an hour of discussion and no mention of FM switch off....scandalous...ohh we will do it next week.

Spectral Morn
24-06-2009, 13:13
This issue is of interest to a tiny minority.

128Kb/s at MP2 will sound better than FM on Dixon's Mini Stack.

That is why I say we should make sure we are fighting the right battle.

Sorry to say, one brother to another brother;) that is not the case. FM still sounds better on cheap gear than DAB...I used to have to sell that stuff so I have done the comparisons.

Regards D S D L

Labarum
24-06-2009, 13:18
The biggest issue though is sound quality regardless of current broadcasting quality FM still to my ear sounds best.


When I move to Southampton in September I will be able to use my Quad Tuner again. I will do another direct A-B test. Last time I was able to do it there was really not much to choose between a 128Kb/s MP2 stream off my Virgin Box and FM.

Now I listen more to higher bitrates with more modern codecs off the internet. I think they better FM, but I will have to wait for the a-B test.

Have you made such comparisons?

-- At the moment listening to:

http://opml.radiotime.com/Tune.ashx?id=s55517&Formats=mp3,wma,real&username=sampletime&PartnerId=16

Mozart K40 - 256 MP3

Labarum
24-06-2009, 13:24
Sorry to say, one brother to another brother;) that is not the case. FM still sounds better on cheap gear than DAB...I used to have to sell that stuff so I have done the comparisons.

Regards D S D L

Then I bow to your practical experience. Why doesn't it?

The rather dead DAC in my Virgin Box makes quite a decent stab at Classic FM and Radio 3.

Spectral Morn
24-06-2009, 13:33
When I move to Southampton in September I will be able to use my Quad Tuner again. I will do another direct A-B test. Last time I was able to do it there was really not much to choose between a 128Kb/s MP2 stream off my Virgin Box and FM.

Now I listen more to higher bitrates with more modern codecs off the internet. I think they better FM, but I will have to wait for the a-B test.

Have you made such comparisons?

-- At the moment listening to:

http://opml.radiotime.com/Tune.ashx?id=s55517&Formats=mp3,wma,real&username=sampletime&PartnerId=16

Mozart K40 - 256 MP3

Hi Brian

No..to be honest I can't see myself embracing PC use into my audio experience...surfing the net and writing is all I want it for. My biggest gripe as well as loss of sound quality is a plie of perfectly good items that won't work any more :(


Regards D S D L

Spectral Morn
24-06-2009, 13:39
Then I bow to your practical experience. Why doesn't it?

The rather dead DAC in my Virgin Box makes quite a decent stab at Classic FM and Radio 3.

IMHO it is because of the inherent tonal richness of analogue which compensates for the thin information light signal from DAB and MP3 that results in better sound through cheap mass market kit. I have heard it to often. For example £100 Henry Kloss Tivoli model 1 (Mono no less) FM radio eats any of the Denon, Teac, Onkyo all in ones with Dab at hundreds of pounds less. My Panasonic tape player/radio in the kitchen is better than DAB ...the £50 radio/phone unit which hangs on the wall in our bedroom is better heck its Binatone or some such thing...


Regards D S D L

twelvebears
24-06-2009, 13:42
I'm sure this was just my attempt to wee on a forest fire, but he's the e-mail I sent to the Digital Britain mob....

'Dear Sir/Madam.

Can you please tell me what the Government's view is as part of it's 'Digital Britain' plans of thousands upon thousands of users who own AM and FM equipment which would be rendered useless by the switch to DAB without some form of digital to FM adaptor.

Even with such a 'digi-box for radio' many enthusiasts will have valuable, high quality FM tuners which will then be limited by the quality of both the DAB transmissions AND the digital-FM converters.

Don't get me wrong, I believe that 'going digital' offers advantages in many cases, but it needs to be based upon genuine need and with consideration with the impact on consumers.

Old TV's can be cheaply and easily converted to digital, further more, all new TVs are generally digital enabled, and with the move to cheap flatscreens, many people have chosen to upgrade to new sets. However with radio, most people who own radios either at home or in their car find that their current set works perfectly well, there's certainly not the bonus of getting back space in their house to encourage a change. Furthermore, even now, DAB radios are in no way 'standard fit'. I have only recently purchased a new car which did not have DAB even as an option.

Also, how does forcing the build and purchase of so much new equipment and the potential dumping of the old, fit with the Governments environmental commitments?

Regards

Steve Gascoyne'

Labarum
24-06-2009, 14:01
My biggest gripe as well as loss of sound quality is a pile of perfectly good items that won't work any more :(


Many millions of pounds worth of perfectly usable kit from vintage Troughlines and top rate modern FM Tuners to 1960s trannies and 1950 Wireless sets will be rendered useless. That is a pity and an economic mess, I agree.

But you say you will not embrace the later technology either because you cannot be bothered with the "new fangled", or because you are ideologically opposed to it is a strange position to be in for an audiophile chasing the best quality that can be afforded.

I have adopted an interim solution - the Squeezebox cost me £130 and the Beresford DAC a similar sum. When the technology is more mature, I will invest. I have two desktop PCs in the house and two laptops - all wirelessly connected. When my grown up kids are home add two more laptops. Audio and video is painlessly moved around the house - along with other data.

It has to be the way to go. And studio quality sound can be achieved for a fraction of the cash needed previously. (Speakers still cost!)

I repeat my real fear is that those wedded to the past will fight the wrong battle, and future generations will lose.

Radio 3 off a 24/192 losslessly encoded stream - it can be done using less bandwidth than a Satellite or iPlayer TV channel. That is what we should be pressing for. What I listen to in the car is irrelevant - 128 AAC+ would be very good.

You got me doubting myself so after listening to a radio stream at 320Kb/s MP3 so I flipped straight to a Gimmel recording of a Palestrina Kyrie at 24/96 FLAC. It is better - but not by a million miles.

Labarum
24-06-2009, 14:07
IMHO it is because of the inherent tonal richness of analogue which compensates for the thin information light signal

Ah! Colouration!! The analogue bloom!!!

Comfortable old slippers!!!!

:) (Half) Tongue in cheek.

A few years ago my son, with the help of a sixth form teacher restored a 1950 valve wireless. It has a beautiful Bakelite case, and sounds very nice, but it is not an accurate sound. I have a Pye Black box awaiting restoration. It will be fun - but it's not real world audio.

Labarum
25-06-2009, 07:34
The Times has its say

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/libby_purves/article6549533.ece

aquapiranha
25-06-2009, 20:48
Bring it on!! i look forward to the day the airwaves are awash with pirate stations playing proper music for music lovers!!

Marco
25-06-2009, 21:00
Ah! Colouration!! The analogue bloom!!!

Comfortable old slippers!!!!

:) (Half) Tongue in cheek.


Steady on, Brian - people have been whipped on their bare bums here for less! :lol:

;)

Marco.

shane
25-06-2009, 21:07
Some enterprising character has put a petition on the number 10 Website:

http://petitions.number10.gov.uk/AM-FM-Radio/

Spectral Morn
25-06-2009, 21:08
Have any of you left comments or messages at the end of any of these links ?

If not why not...the war is on..."to the walls for Leak, FM and sound quality "


Regards D S D L

Spectral Morn
25-06-2009, 21:13
Some enterprising character has put a petition on the number 10 Website:

http://petitions.number10.gov.uk/AM-FM-Radio/


Sign it or I will send the boys round....stand up and be counted I have signed.


Regards D S D L

aquapiranha
25-06-2009, 21:17
Done..

Please click on the link below to confirm your signature on the
petition at the bottom of this email.



The petition was created by Mike Hughes and reads:

'We the undersigned petition the Prime Minister to Halt the
proposed Analog Radio Switch-Off.'

[ Please do not reply to this email, it will not confirm your
signature. This email has been automatically sent by the Number
10 petitions system. ]

The Grand Wazoo
25-06-2009, 21:18
Some enterprising character has put a petition on the number 10 Website:

http://petitions.number10.gov.uk/AM-FM-Radio/

Well spotted!! - over 1000 signatures already.

Get on it, Guys!

Stratmangler
25-06-2009, 22:20
Some clever chap will design and make a nice digital box that you can plug an analogue tuner into to get an FM feed off of.

Only problem is that on DAB currently in the UK the standards are not good enough. And off t'interweb many of the streams are not of high enough quality (I'm talking Beeb here), at least not for hardware players, which is how such a device would be classified.

So I've signed the petition.

And I listen to radio from digital source at home - analogue is not worth the expenditure for me as I live in quite a "difficult" area (Lancashire Moors) and would require a decent twig to get the best out of analogue broadcast.

That and a decent tuner.

The one big irony lost on most folks is that the BBC carry the signal to the analogue transmitters utilising 13 bit digital streams, and have done so for around 3 decades now.

Ah well.......

Chris:)

Spectral Morn
25-06-2009, 22:28
Some clever chap will design and make a nice digital box that you can plug an analogue tuner into to get an FM feed off of.

Only problem is that on DAB currently in the UK the standards are not good enough. And off t'interweb many of the streams are not of high enough quality (I'm talking Beeb here), at least not for hardware players, which is how such a device would be classified.

So I've signed the petition.

And I listen to radio from digital source at home - analogue is not worth the expenditure for me as I live in quite a "difficult" area (Lancashire Moors) and would require a decent twig to get the best out of analogue broadcast.

That and a decent tuner.

The one big irony lost on most folks is that the BBC carry the signal to the analogue transmitters utilising 13 bit digital streams, and have done so for around 3 decades now.

Ah well.......

Chris:)

Yes but FM still sounds better to me... Good on you for signing.


Regards D S D L

Barry
25-06-2009, 22:37
Yep me too! Noticed the 'usual suspects' as well as some of my former work colleagues.

Barry

Stratmangler
25-06-2009, 22:41
Yes but FM still sounds better to me... Good on you for signing.


Regards D S D L

Using a Troughline I can imagine that you have "tone you can chew on".

What kind of aerial you using to get a decent signal into the old wireless ?

I can imagine that it makes your intergalactic comms setup look quite insignificant.:lolsign:

Chris:)

Spectral Morn
25-06-2009, 22:54
Using a Troughline I can imagine that you have "tone you can chew on".

What kind of aerial you using to get a decent signal into the old wireless ?

I can imagine that it makes your intergalactic comms setup look quite insignificant.:lolsign:

Chris:)


No not really but I live within a few miles of the transmitter see link for details of my aerial set up/installation http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=2942



Regards D S D L

Labarum
26-06-2009, 06:09
Steady on, Brian - people have been whipped on their bare bums here for less! :lol:


Given these media that would be a digitized whipping, would it?

Labarum
26-06-2009, 06:21
I have signed the petition because I think it is crazy to rush to analogue switch off.



The one big irony lost on most folks is that the BBC carry the signal to the analogue transmitters utilising 13 bit digital streams, and have done so for around 3 decades now.

In the longer term I think we should move to studio quality radio (losslessly encoded transmissions at 24/96 or better) on Satellite, Cable and Multicast; and we could have DAB+ at high bitrates taking over much more of Band II when it is clear of FM transmissions.

When FM and FM Stereo transmissions were started they were pushing the boundaries of practical engineering, and achieved remarkable results; but FM does make compromises which we do not need to make today with properly implemented digital transmissions. The digital systems will, of course include their own compromises of cost and practicality, but the bar of achieveability is quite a lot higher with the newer technology.

Why does the petition spell analogue the American way? Analog indeed!

scrufftyguy
27-06-2009, 10:06
Just signed the petition too, as much as I love the convenience factor of internet radio (I can't get DAB where I live) FM sound so much better! Until DAB/Internet radio quality is improved they should leave FM well alone!!

Ade

Labarum
27-06-2009, 10:38
What internet radio streams are you listening to, Ade?

At what bitrates and with what hardware?

Edit: You haven't bought a decent DAC yet? That's why Internet Radio does not match FM. Get the DAC right and it will at least as good.

scrufftyguy
27-06-2009, 10:47
What internet radio streams are you listening to, Ade?

At what bitrates and with what hardware?

Edit: You haven't bought a decent DAC yet? That's why Internet Radio does not match FM. Get the DAC right and it will at least as good.

Hi there Brian, I mainly listen to BBC streams, and Last.fm through a Squeezebox Classic. I'm planning on getting the 7520 in the next few days, which will hopefully help sort things out!

Ade:)

Labarum
27-06-2009, 11:32
You have to be careful what BBC streams you are tuning. Alien BBC is the Squeezebox plugin you must use if you want to access iPlayer, and that gets your the Realplayer streams and the play again features.

There are some higher bitrate BBC streams using the WMA codec, but they are well hidden. Good AAC+ streams are becoming available, but they are at the moment only available via the iPlayer Web Interface.

My Squeezebox Favourites I list below. Copy the URLs to your SB3 using the Squeezecentre web interface.

Mostly Classical - I have not explored other Genre.

The best Internet Radio I have heard are the streams from eastern Europe in the OGG format - the live concerts are amazing - well, live, or timeslipped using a digital recording with no messing. The clarity is outstanding. I was once discussing this on the Squeezbox forum and copies to the forum the OGG Sation I was currently listening to. One of the Squeezebox development team came back to me confirmed my judgement - outstanding clarity.

I have been hunting for the HiBit WMA URLs for the BBC other that R3, which I cannot find at the moment.

You should find the Standac taking a feed from the Squeezebox gives your FM tuner a run for its money. If you have a Sky, Freesat or Cable TV box with an optical out, try that too. The radio should come out at 192Kb/s MP2 encoding which will be about the same quality as 128Kb/s with MP3 or WMA coding. AAC+ and OGG coding will beat the others at the same bitrate.

Happy experimenting. I will be very surprised if you come back and tell me your FM Tuner is better than the Squeezebox and Standac.

My Favourites

Bartσk Rαdiσ (Hungary)
http://212.92.28.75:2008/
MP3 at 320kbps

AVRO Klassiek Beste NL MP3 256
http://opml.radiotime.com/Tune.ashx?id=s55517&Formats=mp3,wma,real&username=sampletime&PartnerId=16

BBC R3 WMA 128
http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio3/wm_asx/aod/radio3.asx

BBC R4 WMA 96
http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/wm_asx/aod/radio4.asx

BBC R4 LW 64
mms://wmlive-acl.bbc.co.uk/wms/bbc_ami/radio4/radio4lw_bb_live_eq1_sl1#slim:noscan=1

Venice Classic MP3 128
http://www.shoutcast.com/sbin/tunein-station.pls?id=4975&filename=playlist.pls

D-dur (Czech Republic)
http://www.rozhlas.cz/audio/download/ddur_maxogg.m3u
OGG at 224kbps

Vltava (Czech Republic)
http://radio.cesnet.cz/cgi-bin/cro3-256-ogg.pls
OGG at 224kbps

Devνn (Slovakia)
http://live.slovakradio.sk:8000/Devin_256.ogg
OGG at 256kbps

NRK Alltid Klassisk (Norway)
http://media.hiof.no/streams/m3u/nrk...sk-172.ogg.m3u
OGG at 172kbps

Radio 4 (Netherlands)
http://shoutcast.omroep.nl:8106/listen.pls
MP3 at 192kbps

Baroque Ottawa MP3 128
http://opml.radiotime.com/Tune.ashx?id=s65422&Formats=mp3,wma,real&username=sampletime&PartnerId=16

Classical Quebec MP3 128
URL: http://opml.radiotime.com/Tune.ashx?id=s96897&Formats=mp3,wma,real&username=sampletime&PartnerId=16

Radio Swiss Classic MP3 128
http://opml.radiotime.com/Tune.ashx?id=s25582&Formats=mp3,wma,real&username=sampletime&PartnerId=16


---

Radio Swiss Classic (Switzerland)
http://stream-1.ssatr.ch/rsc/aacp
AAC+ at 64kbps (sounds like MP3 at 160-192kbps)

Play Classical (UK)
http://audio3.playradiouk.com:8060/
AAC+ at 64kbps (sounds like MP3 at 160-192kbps)


Do note you will need the latest Squeezentre download and the latest Squeezebox Firmware to stream OGG and AAC+; and you will need Alien BBC installed for any streams in "Real" format, and for the listen again options.

It is complex, but worth working at.

scrufftyguy
27-06-2009, 11:42
Thanks for the detailed reply, I've only had the squeezebox a few weeks now so I'm still learning, with regards to both the squeezebox and dacs. I've already installed the AlienBBC plugin and I'll check out those links that you've given me. I'm looking forward to trying the squeezebox out with an seperate dac, and hopefully as you say it will outperform my FM tuner. Having said that I still hope FM isn't abandoned yet, it's always good to have the choice! :)

Ade

Stratmangler
27-06-2009, 11:54
Hi Ade

I'd recommend the iPlayer plugin for accessing the main BBC channels. Higher bitrates and better quality.

What version of Squeezecenter/OS are you using ? I only ask 'cos in the current version (7.3.3) AAC/AAC+ radio streams are natively supported. You have to work a bit harder with earlier SC versions.

Chris:)

scrufftyguy
27-06-2009, 12:10
Hi Chris

I've got both the AlienBBC and iPlayer plugins, not too sure if there was any need for the AlienBBC plugin, or not!

I think my squeezecenter version is the one before 7.3.3 as I didn't want to rush in an update straight away just incase there were any problems and I was only just getting used to the whole squeezebox thing (only had it about 2 weeks). OS is XP by the way.

Ade:)

Labarum
27-06-2009, 12:13
Hi Ade

I'd recommend the iPlayer plugin for accessing the main BBC channels. Higher bitrates and better quality.



I don't have the iPlayer Plugin installed. I guess that gets the new AAC+ streams at 128.

I have found the 128 WMA that work without any plugin.

They are below.

The iPlayer AAC+ streams are a work in progress.

See

http://www.digitalradiotech.co.uk/2009/06/bbc_aac_internet_streams_outclass_dab.php

(The whole Digital Radio Tech site is worth studying)

I see the R3 AAC+ stream is at 192, which ought to be extremely good - as good as WMA at 256?

---
Chris

Am I missing any good Classical Music Streams?

---

WMA streams at 128 that need no Squeezebox Plugin.


http://iplayerhelp.external.bbc.co.uk/help/finding_programmes/real_wma_streams

And I quote in a form that can be cut and paste into the Squeezecentre Web Interface

BBC WMA Streams at 128 (ish?)

R1

http://bbc.co.uk/radio/listen/live/r1.asx

R2

http://bbc.co.uk/radio/listen/live/r2.asx

R3

http://bbc.co.uk/radio/listen/live/r3.asx

R4

http://bbc.co.uk/radio/listen/live/r4.asx

R4 Longwave

http://bbc.co.uk/radio/listen/live/r4lw.asx

R5 Live

http://bbc.co.uk/radio/listen/live/r5l.asx

R5 Live Sports Extra

http://bbc.co.uk/radio/listen/live/r5lsp.asx

R6 Music

http://bbc.co.uk/radio/listen/live/r6.asx

R7

http://bbc.co.uk/radio/listen/live/r7.asx

R Asian Network

http://bbc.co.uk/radio/listen/live/ran.asx

scrufftyguy
27-06-2009, 12:20
Hi Brian,
thanks again for the reply, I'm afraid I can't help you with any more classical streams as it's not something I listen to much. Having said that I'll definitely listen to some of the high quality links you posted earlier, just to see what I'm missing!
Ade

Labarum
27-06-2009, 13:28
I have just installed the iPlayer Plugin.

It seems very sluggish, and seems to have stability problems. I have, in the last two weeks, however had other problems with my installation - maybe the precise versions of Squeezecentre and the SB£ Firmware I am using.

I do note, though, that iPlayer is calling the 128 WMA streams and not the AAC+ ones.

scrufftyguy
27-06-2009, 13:31
Does the music that is streamed via squeezenetwork differ in quality from that streamed through squeezecenter?

Ade

Stratmangler
27-06-2009, 13:33
Ade

There is a AAC+ plugin for the previous version of SC - you will need Alien installed as this uses MPlayer, which you also need to access AAC+ radio streams.

Brian

Unfortunately the chap who heads the BBC service migration team is alleged to be pretty scathing of hardware players like Squeezebox accessing radio. The experiments the BBC are performing with their streaming services are based around software players.
All of which means that, for the time being at least, BBC AAC+ streams are not accessible via Squeezebox. Hopefully that will change.

Chris:)

scrufftyguy
27-06-2009, 13:43
Thanks Chris

but I just updated squeezecenter, so I'm all up to date now!

Ade :)

Labarum
27-06-2009, 14:01
BBC AAC+ streams are not accessible via Squeezebox.

That is what I thought, but did you not say that the AAC+ streams are available via the iPlayer Plugin? Did I mis-read you?

I will stick with the WNA streams and Alien BBC for listen again - I sall be moving to Cyprus soon and without a UK proxy iPlayer will not work!

Stratmangler
27-06-2009, 14:46
That is what I thought, but did you not say that the AAC+ streams are available via the iPlayer Plugin? Did I mis-read you?

I will stick with the WNA streams and Alien BBC for listen again - I sall be moving to Cyprus soon and without a UK proxy iPlayer will not work!

Hi Brian

I use iPlayer to access BBC Radio via SC/Squeezebox. These streams are WMA, as you have stated.

In order to access an AAC+ NON BBC radio stream I had to instal Alien (as it's based on/around MPlayer), along with the AAC+ plugin. This was for SC version 7.3.2 .

Regardless of plugins in SC you cannot access the BBC AAC+ content as it hangs on the WMA stream and is flash player based - SC/Squeezebox will not play flash stream stuff.

If the BBC eventually deign to provide non flash based AAC+ streams for hardware player access then I'll be a very happy bunny.

Confused ?

I am !!!

Chris:lolsign:

PS
Did I mis-read you? Probably.

Labarum
27-06-2009, 14:56
Yes amazingly complex.

The highest bitrate AAC+ I have is

Title: WRTI Classical Philadephia 96 AAC+
URL: http://wrti-ice.streamguys.net/classical-247-aacp

But it sounds good.

What have you got in Classical Genre?

Stratmangler
27-06-2009, 15:16
Classical streams ?
Only what I've cut and pasted from one of your previous posts.

I've got Neil Young + Crazy Horse playing ATM from HD.

Did you catch his set at Glasto on the box last night ?

My 8 year old son watched/listened with me.

He was amused by the tramp on stage who couldn't sing very well and played guitar quite badly.;)

I enjoyed the ragged glory of it all. Slick it wasn't, but that's missing the point.:smoking:

Chris:)

Labarum
27-06-2009, 15:24
Glastonbury? I live quite close, and my kids used to go to Wells Cathedral School; but I wouldn't go near while they were making that awful racket.

;)

Stratmangler
27-06-2009, 15:33
Glastonbury? I live quite close, and my kids used to go to Wells Cathedral School; but I wouldn't go near while they were making that awful racket.

;)

:D

Labarum
27-06-2009, 16:21
:D

Slipped in the mud, did you?

foxysounds
27-06-2009, 16:48
Chris (TGW), DAB radio uses the frequency band 218.64 - 229.07 MHz, approximately double that used for FM, so unless you are in a high signal strength region yor existing FM aerial will not work very well.
I have a loop aerial on my roof (designed for FM) and it gives me a passable FM signal but an excellent DAB signal so the only answer to this question is that you need to experiment.

FM reception quality is poor in my area and the lower audio quality of DAB is more than made up for by the better reception quality. All my radio listening in the house now is on DAB. In my study the DAB radio outputs to the TC-7520 and sounds great.

Having said that, I'm not in favour of switching off FM. I'm sure I won't live in this house forever and it may be that the situation will be the opposite in my next house. I also occasionally listen to the radio in the car and would like to be able to continue to do so without an expensive upgrade (also, I'm not convinced I can get a decent DAB reception in my car - I briefly had a portable DAB radio and the reception quality through the built-in aerial was terrible). Finally, the effect on the environment is not insignificant.

I signed the petition but as others have said, I think a better solution would be high bit-rate digital. However, I fear that will never happen. Given the choice between being able to sell more channels or sell fewer high quality channels, the latter will make more money and therefore will win.

Simon.

Labarum
27-06-2009, 18:07
218.64 - 229.07 MHz ?

Is that VHS Band III, as used by ITV in ye olde dayes?

Barry
28-06-2009, 00:55
218.64 - 229.07 MHz ?

Is that VHS Band III, as used by ITV in ye olde dayes?

Yes.

Band III TV covered 174 - 230MHz, divided into eight 7MHz slots.

DAB covers 174.928 - 239.2MHz, divided into 40 slots. The UK has been assigned the range 217.5 - 230MHz and within this the BBC is using 218.64 - 229.07MHz.

If you have an old Band III TV aerial left on your roof, it could be redirected to a DAB transmitter, or if you can get hold of an old one you could use that, though proper DAB aerials are cheap enough.

DAB is advertised as being interference-free and is supposed to be easier to receive than FM. Unfortunately the reality is that DAB's reception is far from perfect. Interference in the form of multipath can reduce the signal strength at the main carrier frequency and this result in too many bits of the digital signal being in error and a sound that is commonly called "bubbling" or "boiling mud" - because of the similarity between these sounds and what you hear on your DAB radio. This is quite a common problem with reception of DAB signals. If the multipath interference gets any worse than when you hear the bubbling sounds then the signal will dropout altogether and the audio mutes. This too is not uncommon, and you won't see this mentioned in the DAB advertisements.

It is a common misconception that DAB can easily be received using a wire aerial that comes supplied with the DAB radio. In some cases this is true, but in many/most cases this is not the case and you may well have to purchase a "proper" DAB aerial.

Regards

Spectral Morn
28-06-2009, 09:35
Yes.

Band III TV covered 174 - 230MHz, divided into eight 7MHz slots.

DAB covers 174.928 - 239.2MHz, divided into 40 slots. The UK has been assigned the range 217.5 - 230MHz and within this the BBC is using 218.64 - 229.07MHz.

If you have an old Band III TV aerial left on your roof, it could be redirected to a DAB transmitter, or if you can get hold of an old one you could use that, though proper DAB aerials are cheap enough.

DAB is advertised as being interference-free and is supposed to be easier to receive than FM. Unfortunately the reality is that DAB's reception is far from perfect. Interference in the form of multipath can reduce the signal strength at the main carrier frequency and this result in too many bits of the digital signal being in error and a sound that is commonly called "bubbling" or "boiling mud" - because of the similarity between these sounds and what you hear on your DAB radio. This is quite a common problem with reception of DAB signals. If the multipath interference gets any worse than when you hear the bubbling sounds then the signal will dropout altogether and the audio mutes. This too is not uncommon, and you won't see this mentioned in the DAB advertisements.

It is a common misconception that DAB can easily be received using a wire aerial that comes supplied with the DAB radio. In some cases this is true, but in many/most cases this is not the case and you may well have to purchase a "proper" DAB aerial.

Regards

How many people I wonder put a decent FM aerial on their chimney stacks ? Not many...its very rare to see a decent FM aerial. While it is true that FM needs a good aerial to give its best, such is the technology that a bit of wet string will work a lot of the time (not giving the tuner the best signal but enough to work). The opposite is true of DAB...it needs an external aerial to work fully. How many will do this ? How many will allow the roof of their car to be butchered to fit a bigger DAB aerial ? and the electronics/wiring in the car touched, never mind the extra strain the DAB unit will put on the car battery. I wonder? It is in the main these facts/issues that mean very few DAB radios are fitted to cars, never mind the extra reception difficulties of being on the move, which DAB is worse at than FM.

Nice explanation above Barry as usual.



Regards D S D L

Labarum
28-06-2009, 11:05
When I get to Southampton, Neil, I will set up my five element FM antenna and compare again the Quad 77 FM tuner to my HiBit Internet streams and to the Freesat Streams. I use the Virgin cable here for everything - no option - TV, Telephone, Broadband.

I have a Freesat Tuner in the TV, but no point in paying for a dish when I cave cable. I would be tempted to an HD Freesat Box, and that should have S/PDIF out.

For years I used a Sugden A48 with the matching T48 tuner - now that was a nice tuner. Gave the Quad 33 a run for its money. Never had a Leak. If they come as cheap as you say, I might be tempted just for the experience. Trouble is, my main system in the lounge has no analogue inputs! The DAC does the source switching and has an analogue volume control. It drives the Quad 405-2 directly.

I have taken on occasions the fixed output from the DAC (ie before the analogue volume control) straight to the Quad power amp and relied on the Squeezebox digital volume control. There is a marginal increase in clarity, but I then have no way to control the volume of the Virgin Cable box!

When using a volume control in the digital domain you cannot use to much attenuation or you mangle the bitstream. That means the DAC output has to be well matched to the input sensitivity of the power amp. When I had my Quad 405-2 upgraded, I made sure of that.

Labarum
29-06-2009, 07:16
Marco, and all.

Use this link to write to your MP protesting about analogue switch off.

http://www.writetothem.com/

This should be in your "Announcement", Marco.

Marco
29-06-2009, 08:40
It is now, Brian :)

Marco.

Labarum
10-07-2009, 19:37
Interesting technical description and historical survey here

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FM_broadcasting

ff1d1l
14-07-2009, 11:15
You probably all know about it, but there's a petition here

http://petitions.number10.gov.uk/AM-FM-Radio/

there's a few notable names on it - why not add yours?


Regards


Nial

Steve Toy
15-07-2009, 01:14
I went through all the names and several members here are present, including mine. At the last look, Marco was absent. It is such a quick job to sign..

Marco, you have no excuse:

Sign

Labarum
15-07-2009, 06:11
For different views on this subject see here

http://hddaudio.net/punbb/viewtopic.php?id=115

Marco
15-07-2009, 06:55
I went through all the names and several members here are present, including mine. At the last look, Marco was absent. It is such a quick job to sign..

Marco, you have no excuse:

Sign

Keep yer inco-panties shtrapped on. It's.......

DONE

:ner:

Marco.

Labarum
17-07-2009, 14:28
Bump.

I just couldn't bear to let Marco have the last word, byte or bit.

Labarum
21-07-2009, 07:52
There was some discussion in Parliament yesterday on this issue. Quite a few minutes of it was reported on Radio 4 today (21 July) from about 0830 Hrs.

You may find it using some "Listen Again" system.

I did not hear audio quality discussed.

I am sure on-line Hansard will have the whole debate.

David Price
21-07-2009, 15:39
I've also started this - please sign this one too!

http://petitions.number10.gov.uk/switch-off-DAB/

David

Labarum
27-01-2010, 13:41
House of Lords to Discuss FM Radio switch off and associated issues.

I have just received this email from DigitalRadioTech

---


The House of Lords Communications Select Committee is holding an inquiry into the digital switchover of TV and radio. Written submissions must arrive at the House of Lords by 1st February, which is this coming Monday.

This inquiry might be the last chance people get to express their views on the Government's plans for digital radio switchover before the Digital Economy Bill is passed. The only other chance might be when the Bill goes back to the House of Commons, but I feel that this is the best chance people will get to actually have their views listened to.

On the radio side, the inquiry is asking for people's views on "the outstanding technical issues, including the appropriateness of DAB as the digital radio standard" and, less interestingly, "the current state of the Government’s plans for switchover to digital radio".

In addition to sending your views on the DAB vs DAB+ issue, though, I've yet to see the Government or the BBC provide a single piece of evidence to show that the public wants FM stations to be switched off, whereas there's evidence to suggest that the public is perfectly happy with FM. For example, an Ofcom market research survey conducted last year showed that 91% of people are "satisfied" with the choice of radio stations available at the moment, and only 3% are "dissatisfied". Therefore there's negligible demand for the main feature that DAB has to offer. Also, presenters on BBC radio programmes said that people were "almost unanimous" in their opposition to the plans to switch off FM stations when the 2015 switchover date was announced last summer.

I think it stands to reason that the public doesn't want FM stations to be switched off, so I think it would be perfectly justifiable for people who're opposed to that happening to send their views to this inquiry as well, especially considering that the public has been completely ignored up to now on this matter by the BBC and the Government.

A press release about the inquiry, including instructions about where to send submissions to, can be found here:

http://www.parliament.uk/documents/upload/DigS.doc

The press release says that submissions should be sent by post, but if you don't want to post anything or you don't feel it would get there in time, I think it would be worth sending your views via email to the Select Committee's email address:

holcommunications@parliament.uk

Thanks.

Rare Bird
27-01-2010, 13:51
I personally thing the public views are the last thing on parliments mind..It'll go through the motions like all thing do, but don't be suprised.

Labarum
03-03-2010, 17:19
10 Downing Street has responded to the petition to save FM Radio

It is an odd response

http://www.number10.gov.uk/Page22663

This is the big laugh:

"The Government is working with manufacturers to consider the implementation of a ‘set-top box’ solution for analogue radio which would allow existing analogue radios sets to receive DAB"

Would that cost more or less than a new radio?

leo
03-03-2010, 17:27
Odd is one word for it :doh:

Spectral Morn
03-03-2010, 18:09
Okay....there's the challenge to the audiophile electronics design world. Design a DAB/DAB+ upgradeable receiver converter for/to FM. Something that makes digital sound better and then delivers it via a 75ohm aerial connection. However...what about all the car radios, portable radios etc ? that don't have an external cable connector.

I am still not happy about this. FM sounds better and is better than DAB and probably Dab + too. However anything which keeps my FM tuners working would be welcomed by me.

Stan Beresford and the like, would you care to look at this challenge.

Typical government fudge....bollocks answer.


Regards D S D L

Labarum
03-03-2010, 18:30
FM sounds better and is better than DAB and probably Dab + too.

But FM on my Quad 77 Tuner is not better than the Freeview or Freesat radio streams, and not better than the HiBit Internet Streams when any are routed through my Caiman DAC.

Nevertheless, I do believe we should keep the national FM stations for a long time yet.

Spectral Morn
03-03-2010, 18:41
But FM on my Quad 77 Tuner is not better than the Freeview or Freesat radio streams, and not better than the HiBit Internet Streams when any are routed through my Caiman DAC.

Nevertheless, I do believe we should keep the national FM stations for a long time yet.

I have feed sky digital into the dac section of my Moon Andromeda (and other Dacs) and none are as good as FM..imho/e. I have also used a Nokia Free View box too, via a Co-Ax digital feed same result.

FM rules.

Regards D S D L

Labarum
03-03-2010, 18:57
I have feed sky digital into the dac section of my Moon Andromeda (and other Dacs) and none are as good as FM..imho/e. I have also used a Nokia Free View box too, via a Co-Ax digital feed same result.

FM rules.


I can only say that is not my experience.

The FM programme material is sent to the BBC transmitters over an ageing 14 bit digital link. How do you square that?

Have you listened to lossless internet radio?

One station, D-Dur, has stream in OGG FLAC - 800-900 Kb/s

http://radio.cesnet.cz:8000/cro-d-dur.flac

It is an odd format and few softwares will play it.

Foobar on the PC will, and VLC will on any platform, I guess.

Worth listening.

The OGG stream at 256 Kb/s is very nearly as good

http://www.rozhlas.cz/audio/download/ddur_maxogg.m3u

I generally listen to the OGG at 256 on the Squeezebox, otherwise I have to USB the laptop to the Caiman and run Foobar, and that's a pain.

See

http://www.rozhlas.cz/d-dur/english

(The free FLAC Brandenburgs are worth downloading)

Spectral Morn
03-03-2010, 19:13
I can only say that is not my experience.

The FM programme material is sent to the BBC transmitters over an ageing 14 bit digital link. How do you square that?

Have you listened to lossless internet radio?

One station, D-Dur, has stream in OGG FLAC - 800-900 Kb/s

http://radio.cesnet.cz:8000/cro-d-dur.flac

It is an odd format and few softwares will play it.

Foobar on the PC will, and VLC will on any platform, I guess.

Worth listening.

The OGG stream at 256 Kb/s is very nearly as good

http://www.rozhlas.cz/audio/download/ddur_maxogg.m3u

I generally listen to the OGG at 256 on the Squeezebox, otherwise I have to USB the laptop to the Caiman and run Foobar, and that's a pain.

See

http://www.rozhlas.cz/d-dur/english

(The free FLAC Brandenburgs are worth downloading)

Brian

I can't square anything. I know what I hear (and others to) and I prefer FM. Maybe we are back to a digital vs analogue thing here. Some radio stations do sound compressed, but even those sound better to my ears than digital radio.

As part of my upcoming FM tuner mega review (nearly there now) I will add digital as well.


Regards D S D L

Kris
03-03-2010, 20:14
Have you listened to lossless internet radio?

The BBC doesn't broadcast in lossless over the Internet.

Labarum
03-03-2010, 20:21
The BBC doesn't broadcast in lossless over the Internet.

No it doesn't, but one Czech Broadcaster does.

http://www.rozhlas.cz/d-dur/english

Or are you saying with a very dry humour that you only listen to the BBC?

I was offering an example to someone who doubted that digital radio could better FM, and I offered the opinion that the FLAC stream at about 800Kb/s was only very marginally better than the OGG at 256Kb/s.

Kris
03-03-2010, 20:58
No it doesn't, but one Czech Broadcaster does.

I'm not sure what Czech radio has to do with the UK Government. :scratch:


Chuck away your Troughlines chaps. The government has just announced that all local and national radio broadcasting will be digital by 2015.

Czech internet radio might sound great, but I can't pick it up in the car and I don't listen to Internet radio at home as I have a perfectly good FM only tuner, and no, I don't listen exclusively to the BBC, I also listen to Classic FM.

If the radio stations I listen to (BBC 2 & 3 & Classic FM) were available in lossless over the internet, then I probably would listen to them by that means. I can't (nor can anyone else) compare BBC FM to BBC lossless internet so I'm sorry but your comparison isn't valid. IMO.


The FM programme material is sent to the BBC transmitters over an ageing 14 bit digital link. How do you square that?

I've never heard DAB but from other peoples experience it would appear that the ageing 14 bit digital link to the transmitters sounds a lot better than lossy MP2. That's the comparison. IMO.

Kris.

goraman
04-03-2010, 00:30
:violin: Ever feel like your playing the violin while your contry sinks? It sucks guys,first they take your guns then your anologe am/fm/tv then they turn your C of E into a mosqe and close your job due to enviermental regs.

Here they want to ban all but energy star electronics that means low voltage,low amprage low wattage low quality crap! to use less power.
just like it's a feloney here to own a toilet that flushes over 1.6 gallons so you have to keep flushing the damed thing till your brown trout goes down stream.
It's all about controle even if the people in power can't even controle their own frickin blatters!
Soon we will have tv police because there passing a law to limit screen size.We have a 65 inch DLP!
And politions want to ban the import of vacuum tubes because of hazzardist waste dispoal issues and to premote the energy star thing.He is a Trotskyite.


Id like to make an Eric Cartman quote but this is a family site.so I'll just say "this sxckx xss!" I mean really,the land of the free? 48% of my income goes to pay taxes or fees to local,state and federal government and it's still not enough money to cover there spending?

The government needs more of my money to controle how I live. America and England have alot in common my freinds.
Today there trying to controle us by the govenment takeing over health care ,like they did the banks and General motors.

One version of there plan was to merge health care into the department of motor vehicles because every city and town has a building established already,I'm not kidding ! (THE HOUSE OF REPS BILL)The DMV here is a bad joke the lines take hours and it's slow ass hell,not to mention beuacratic and disorganized.
And these people would make decitions on who gets what treatment? And going outside the system will put you and your doctor in jail!
Thats not reform it's Communisum and I read books in school that taught the differance!


I feel better,whooo sorry but I get a little stirred up ,the neo Ameristanski is hard for me to ajust too. No offence to village idiots, but they seem to have gotten elected into the highest offices in the land! Montey Python couldn't have imaganed a more rediculos upside down world as this...

Where is Winston Churchill,Ronald Reagan and Margret Thacher when we need them?:cool:

Steve Toy
04-03-2010, 01:17
I agree with most of what you say apart from this:



Today there trying to controle us by the govenment takeing over health care ,


That would be a very good thing. Every civilised free country has a national healthcare programme except the US, even Canada. Having a healthcare system free at the point of use for everyone is not communism and this is something most Yanks fail to grasp. Healthcare is the exception to the rule that a free market provides a more efficient service than one controlled by the state.

Think about it, you take out health insurance to fund your future healthcare needs. The insurance provider pockets a fair slice of your money for profit. Then the hospital does the same. You end up paying far more for healthcare than you need to because too many individuals are slurping at the trough who are not actually in the business of making you well again. Then if you become chronically ill they even refuse to insure you because you are no longer printing dollar bills for them.

The British National Health Service isn't the most efficient either because our government has chosen to spend too much of the money set aside for the NHS on chasing the wrong targets and fiddling statistics rather than on frontline healthcare, but the principle is right. The free market and providing healthcare simply do not mix because rather than driving down cost through competition as we see in all other industries, the free market has the reverse effect.

goraman
04-03-2010, 01:29
I agree with most of what you say apart from this:



That would be a very good thing. Every civilised free country has a national healthcare programme except the US, even Canada. Having a healthcare system free at the point of use for everyone is not communism and this is something most Yanks fail to grasp. Healthcare is the exception to the rule that a free market provides a more efficient service than one controlled by the state.

Think about it, you take out health insurance to fund your future healthcare needs. The insurance provider pockets a fair slice of your money for profit. Then the hospital does the same. You end up paying far more for healthcare than you need to because too many individuals are slurping at the trough. Then if you become chronically ill they refuse to insure you because you are no longer printing dollar bills for them.

The British National Health Service isn't the most efficient either because our government has chosen to spend too much of the money set aside for the NHS on chasing the wrong targets and fiddling statistics rather than on frontline healthcare, but the principle is right. The free market and providing healthcare simply do not mix because rather than driving down cost through competition as we see in all other industries, the free market has the reverse effect.

Canada has the worst survival rates for heartattacks,
Menny come here from Canada for treatment.
The preposed plan is based on your age so if you are over 65 and need a liver you won't get one because you can't live long enough to repay for the operation through taxes over your remaining years.
It's such a great plan that the members of the House wrote in a clause excludeing themselves from it,as Senitors and other high level Government officals.
No one here wants it,it's being cramed down our throughts.
Almost all new medications are discovered and made here,if this passes there will be no incentive for pharmacuticals to create new drugs as it will become impossable to pay for the expencive resurch under the new laws.
We have the best medical system in the world,even ileagle imagrants get free health care here.No one is refused emergency care!
The lawers through tort is what is killing us but nothing in the bill addreses the crazy law suits.Because the Democrate party is owned by lawers.

Steve Toy
04-03-2010, 01:32
Pharmaceutical companies still sell to national healthcare providers who employ purchasers.


The preposed plan is based on your age so if you are over 65 and need a liver you won't get one because you can't live long enough to repay for the operation through taxes.


The logic is a bit back-ass. Surely someone of 65 who has presumably worked for most of their life has already paid for the operation through their taxes.

goraman
04-03-2010, 01:39
Pharmaceutical companies still sell to national healthcare providers who employ purchasers.



The logic is a bit back-ass. Surely someone of 65 who has presumably worked for most of their life has already paid for the operation through their taxes.

That is the formula they are useing,thats why it did not get telavised on C SPAN as promised 3X by Obama.

Look up what I'm telling you on line if you don't belive me our elderly here are scared to death of this bill,thats why there calling deathcare!

Labarum
04-03-2010, 03:52
How about getting back on topic?

Even an digital analogue discussion out be safer than this stuff.

goraman
04-03-2010, 04:17
How about getting back on topic?

Even an digital analogue discussion out be safer than this stuff.

Yah,I went a little off the rail there,but it's just more of the same old Government knows best for us.

I mean really why must we just all except these kinds of changes with no voice at all.

Bahhh Bahhh digital goood. Bahhh goood.
I don't think so.

It's just so the bandwith can be sold for profit.

When something like this is done it's never for the good of the people but the greed of a few,or there would have been debate,discussion but I'll bet you where just informed this would just happen so except it.

Just say NO! That is what this thread is about (choice) haveing some say in what affects out lives.

Steve Toy
04-03-2010, 10:24
It sounds like your national healthcare is not going to be implemented on the basis of need. Thus the state takes over without providing any of the benefit that public healthcare should offer.

There lies your issue, not with public funded healthcare itself.

The FM issue is government meddling for its own sake, plus an agenda to reserve FM frequencies for government use.

Yet again the government places its own interest of political power and control ahead of the national interest, I.e. That of the people who vote them into office.

Spectral Morn
04-03-2010, 11:05
Sadly, the government has believed the crap about digital being best (not all digital is bad). So lets switch off tired old analogue FM for the super duper digital DAB....what a joke...especially considering it is now redundant and (?) bettered by DAB+. Its very interesting how no one wants to talk about DAB+...the mega sized elephant in the room.

Brian

I don't use my PC for music/radio, and I can't see me ever doing so (I know ever is a long time...but...?). I have very little interest in doing so..short sighted ? maybe, but for me I like FM. However I will give digital off Free View and Sky another go, with a quality DAC..just to be fair and balanced....(boy its complicated enough to be doing a comparitive piece on 20+ analogue tuners...now I am doing digital as well:eek::doh:;))

In regard to selling analogue frequencies off...well the government won't now be making quite the money they would have a few years ago....but they will still make a fortune..which they will squander :(

About 7 years ago I was asked by a local Conservative politician to come and give his party a talk about digital TV and Radio, which I declined to do, at the time as I didn't want to get involved in politics...I wish I had now :doh::( They need to be told, by experts..not YES men, what's what.

As to the issue of health care in the states...I am shocked at the reaction to it. What about the millions who can't pay for it/afford it...many through no fault of their own (not talking about the bone lazy here). The problem is a cultural/historical attitude I think based on the American work ethos and success....which sadly leaves out those who can't..for what ever reason.


Regards D S D L

goraman
04-03-2010, 13:34
everyone here has emergency health care, even ileagles.
And if you are poor we have free county hospitals.
That is not what is going one here.
It's about controle.

REM
04-03-2010, 14:02
everyone here has emergency health care, even ileagles.
And if you are poor we have free county hospitals.
That is not what is going one here.
It's about controle.

...and profit, don't forget US medical care is provided by insurance companies, not insurance charities...

Labarum
04-03-2010, 21:00
However I will give digital off Free View and Sky another go, with a quality DAC..just to be fair and balanced....(boy its complicated enough to be doing a comparitive piece on 20+ analogue tuners...now I am doing digital as well:eek::doh:;))L

And here's the BBC Internet Streams

BBC WMA Streams at 128

R1

http://bbc.co.uk/radio/listen/live/r1.asx

R2

http://bbc.co.uk/radio/listen/live/r2.asx

R3 (192)

http://bbc.co.uk/radio/listen/live/r3.asx

R4

http://bbc.co.uk/radio/listen/live/r4.asx

R4 Longwave

http://bbc.co.uk/radio/listen/live/r4lw.asx

R5 Live

http://bbc.co.uk/radio/listen/live/r5l.asx

R5 Live Sports Extra

http://bbc.co.uk/radio/listen/live/r5lsp.asx

R6 Music

http://bbc.co.uk/radio/listen/live/r6.asx

R7

http://bbc.co.uk/radio/listen/live/r7.asx

R Asian Network

http://bbc.co.uk/radio/listen/live/ran.asx

R4 Longwave

http://bbc.co.uk/radio/listen/live/r4lw.asx

I think those are all current. Mostly 128Kb/s but Radio 3 is 192 after much moaning.

I have checked R2 and R3 They work and report 128 and 192 respectively on my Squeezebox.

I don't do it that way these days because Squeezebox will access the iPlayer streams which are AAC+ and claimed to be better.

If nothing else it may be worth clicking the R3 page in iPlayer and see what comes out, but it may depend on if your operating system is trying to mange the stream by re-sampling

It's a job keeping up!

But I spend more time with the international classical music stations where you can get 256 MP3 and 256 OGG which is better.

Spectral Morn
04-03-2010, 21:34
Brian

I am against allowing the computer (internet) any further into my life than it all ready is (which is quite a lot these days), but while I am happy with it in some areas, I just won't allow it into my music listening, nor radio listening.

Call me a luddite if you want...and no doubt some (many)will;):lol::lol::lol:


Regards D S D L

Labarum
04-03-2010, 21:45
Brian

I am against allowing the computer (internet) any further into my life . . . I just won't allow it into my music listening, nor radio listening.

The buy a Squeezebox - do you know how much free music there is out there - of all tastes, from all over the world. With a decent DAC very high quality can be achieved.

At the moment I am listening to


Carl Philipp Emanuel Bach - Heinz Holliger, Camerata Bern - Hoboconcert in Es Wq165

AVRO Klassiek Baroque
File Format: MP3
Bitrate: 256kbps CBR
URL: http://145.58.33.95:8068/

dave2010
09-03-2010, 08:17
Call me a luddite if you want...


Sorry - just have to do this. Hi Luddite.

I understand your concerns, but the quality which you can get out of some of the streams via (say) a Squeezebox plus a DAC (e.g Caiman) seems to beat the heck out of my Sony DAB - which itself is very good - on a good day.

There are no bubbling mud noises - if the aerial gets shifted, and I think they may even do proper stereo. Not absolutely sure of the data rates - as noted there is a 192 kbps R3 stream - but that may be mp3. I think there's an aac stream - probably 128 or 160 kbps - but really not sure. Anyway, any of these should be better than the mp2 available via DAB.

It'd be good if the beeb ever get round to allowing recording legally from the digital streams, though they probably won't because of the license fee issues.

Besides radio, there are some services, such as spotify, which work rather well via small netbook computers, and the quality is at least bearable. They don't take up too much space in the living room. I even know people who use Mac minis, and they say that this seems to meet general domestic approval - or maybe their partners just don't notice.

bws

Labarum
09-03-2010, 08:41
Two issues, Dave.

1. The average internet streams will better DAB and probably DAB+ at the bitrates the UK is prepared to commit. The best internet streams will trounce DAB and probably DAB+. Freeview has the potential to be very good and streams off satellite excellent, depending on bitrates.

2. Neil's point concerns the quality of FM over digital transmissions. He, as a self proclaimed analogue luddite, finds FM a better and more satisfying medium. Maybe, but it cannot be more accurate than the best internet streams, for the FM technology has inferior specs. Furthermore, the FM source is not pure analogue since most recordings played these days will be from digital sources; and the link to the FM transmitters is an ageing 14bit digital transmission system.

Spectral Morn
09-03-2010, 10:46
Two issues, Dave.

1. The average internet streams will better DAB and probably DAB+ at the bitrates the UK is prepared to commit. The best internet streams will trounce DAB and probably DAB+. Freeview has the potential to be very good and streams off satellite excellent, depending on bitrates.

2. Neil's point concerns the quality of FM over digital transmissions. He, as a self proclaimed analogue luddite, finds FM a better and more satisfying medium. Maybe, but it cannot be more accurate than the best internet streams, for the FM technology has inferior specs. Furthermore, the FM source is not pure analogue since most recordings played these days will be from digital sources; and the link to the FM transmitters is an ageing 14bit digital transmission system.


Thank you Brian for the clarification of my point of view.

All Brian says is true, but still I prefer FM.


Regards D S D L

dave2010
09-03-2010, 11:23
Thank you Brian for the clarification of my point of view.

All Brian says is true, but still I prefer FM.


Regards D S D LI've not heard good FM often. Someone sent me CDs with recordings made from his FM kit - much better than almost anything else I've heard for quite a while. DAB has well known limitations, though on a good day it can be very acceptable.

When my FM kit is set up it can give good results, but since moving house the signal hasn't been so good - and I'm afraid I haven't afforded the man on the roof to fix that. Even if I get the hiss levels down to near zero, I find the dynamic compression on FM a real drawback, though presumably there is still dynamic compresson on DAB since broadcasters don't seem to trust the end users to figure out how to do it on their receivers.

DAB/FM: Sony ST D777 ES
FM: JVC TX55

Mart
09-03-2010, 12:28
Rant on:

God, I think this is so shit.

All the equipment out there that is going to be wasted, I read yesterday that there is an estimated 100 million FM receivers in ine form or another that are going to be completely useless.

And then that some baffoon has been talking about a scrappage scheme, you may get 20% of the value of your lovely tuner if you chop it against a piece of DAB rubbish.

Is that 20% of what it cost you or 20% of its value after FM is turned off and its completely worthless, reckon I know the answer to that one.

Grr, makin my feckin blood boil this is.


DAB: short for Digital Audio Bollox coz it sounds shockingly shite.


Rant off, and breath deeply.

Labarum
09-03-2010, 14:54
Thank you Brian for the clarification of my point of view.

All Brian says is true, but still I prefer FM.


Regards D S D L

My pleasure!

Good job we are not all the same.

:)

Spectral Morn
09-03-2010, 15:01
My pleasure!

Good job we are not all the same.

:)

Indeed :)


Regards D S D L

Spectral Morn
09-03-2010, 15:04
Rant on:

God, I think this is so shit.

All the equipment out there that is going to be wasted, I read yesterday that there is an estimated 100 million FM receivers in ine form or another that are going to be completely useless.

And then that some baffoon has been talking about a scrappage scheme, you may get 20% of the value of your lovely tuner if you chop it against a piece of DAB rubbish.

Is that 20% of what it cost you or 20% of its value after FM is turned off and its completely worthless, reckon I know the answer to that one.

Grr, makin my feckin blood boil this is.


DAB: short for Digital Audio Bollox coz it sounds shockingly shite.


Rant off, and breath deeply.


What a joke, that would be. Scrapage scheme, and what digital unit, would sound as good as a Leak Troughline or a Pioneer, Kenwood, Sony etc ? :scratch: None :(


Regards D S D L

Mart
11-03-2010, 22:31
Took me a whiile to find it, and I got me facts wrong, its a 20% discount, not value of your old set as I prev stated.

Here you go.


The radio industry is to copy the government's car scrappage scheme as it tries to persuade listeners to go digital.

The car scheme, introduced by Alistair Darling, allows drivers to collect up to £2,000 if they trade in their old vehicle for a less polluting one. Its radio equivalent could involve a 20% discount on a new digital set if you bring in one of the 100 million or so analogue ones estimated to still be in circulation.

Industry executives hope that the idea will quash a potential rebellion among FM radio listeners as the deadline for switching off the analogue radio signal approaches in a few years' time. They also hope that family members will pick up sets belonging to older relatives and hand them in.

The government has set a date of 2015 for turning off the analogue signal, although that is regarded as an aspiration rather than a concrete policy objective and it is a target that few in the radio industry expect it to meet.

A spokeswoman for Digital Radio UK, the organisation set up to drive switchover, said of the scrappage scheme: "It is something we are looking at we want to do." Its members include the BBC, commercial radio stations and Arqiva, the company that owns the digital radio network and licences frequency to radio stations.

There is confusion amongst many older listeners about the need to purchase new sets and the industry fears a potential backlash from consumers angry about the end of analogue radio.

The former Conservative minister Lord Fowler, who chairs the Lords Communications Committee, told peers last week that it was "quite a sensitive issue" with the public.

"The person who has actually got three radios which have suddenly become redundant, it is going to be quite an issue" he said.

Digital Radio UK has already held exploratory talks with leading retailers, including Currys owner DSG International, and leading manufacturers.

"The idea is that stores will accept analogue sets in part-exchange for new digital models, which will be far cheaper by the time the signal is switched off," said a senior radio industry source.

One idea being touted by senior industry executives involves sending a shipment of outmoded analogue radios to an African country, where they are one of the main sources of communication and the BBC World Service is popular.

The event would generate huge publicity and could form the centrepiece of a PR campaign in the run up to switchover, when the public will be persuaded to dump their old sets.

Although the process of switching off the analogue signal will not begin until digital stations make up 50% of all radio listening, the industry is fearful of a middle class revolt against the plan.

Concerns have also been raised about the cost of disposing of millions of analogue sets.

There are thought to be more than 100m analogue radios in the country, with around 50m in regular use. Many households own more than one.

There are also plans being drawn up for huge recycling bins to be placed in city centres around the country, where consumers can dump their unwanted analogue sets.

Currently, just over 20% of all radio listening is via digital. The government target is for digital listening to reach 50% of the total before the two-year switchover process can begin.

Sales of digital radios were disappointing when they were first launched at the start of the century, although they have picked up recently as the technology has improved and prices have fallen.

Around 500,000 digital radio sets were sold over Christmas, taking the total number of sets in the UK to 10.5m, up from 8.5m at the end of 2009. They can now be bought for under £50.

Critics say its popularity would grow if there were more digital radio stations, pointing out that the vast majority can also be listened to on analogue.

Freeview, the free digital TV service backed by the BBC, has helped to hasten the migration from analogue to digital TV – partly because it gives viewers access to dozens of digital TV channels they would not otherwise be able to receive.

The BBC, which dominates UK radio with a 50% audience share, is key to the success of the project. The corporation has launched a portfolio of digital stations, including Radio 5 Live Sports Extra and 6Music.

But digital radio was dealt a huge blow in 2008, when Channel 4 abandoned plans to launch its own digital network in partnership with other commercial broadcasters.

The Digital Radio UK Spokeswoman said: "Digital radio UK is working with the radio industry on a number of initiatives to drive digital radio take-up and encourage the responsible recycling of analogue sets. Future details will be available as the projects progress."

Spectral Morn
11-03-2010, 22:39
and now the BBC is switching off 2 digital stations.....good.

LONG LIVE ANALOGUE . LONG LIVE FM



Regards D S D L

StanleyB
11-03-2010, 23:11
If they switch off FM, does that mean that those of us with a FM car radio would have to scrap our car? How else am I going to receive traffic news on the go?

Spectral Morn
11-03-2010, 23:22
If they switch off FM, does that mean that those of us with a FM car radio would have to scrap our car? How else am I going to receive traffic news on the go?


Indeed, you would.

So who will start the middle class (needs to be everyone else too. Sad they feel only the MC have any clout. That comment says a lot about Government BBC class attitudes ) rebellion....brothers and sister will you man/woman the barricades with me ?


Regards D S D L

The Grand Wazoo
11-03-2010, 23:25
Come on Stan, we need you to get to work on a decent sounding DAB:FM converter so we can keep using our precious tuners.

How about it?

Spectral Morn
11-03-2010, 23:28
Come on Stan, we need you to get to work on a decent sounding DAB:FM converter so we can keep using our precious tuners.

How about it?

Only as a stand by...in case we are defeated.


Regards D S D L

StanleyB
11-03-2010, 23:42
Hopefully the pirate stations won't capitulate. Has any political party vowed to keep FM? I would consider voting for them if there is such a party agenda.

Spectral Morn
11-03-2010, 23:46
Hopefully the pirate stations won't capitulate. Has any political party vowed to keep FM? I would consider voting for them if there is such a party agenda.

We need to make it a party agenda. No pirate stations on New Skaro, they get exterminated :(


Regards D S D L

Mart
11-03-2010, 23:47
Pirate Stations, hmmm

Ressurect Radio Caroline anybody ?

StanleyB
12-03-2010, 00:51
I was a radio Veronika man myself.

Labarum
12-03-2010, 05:15
If they switch off FM, does that mean that those of us with a FM car radio would have to scrap our car? How else am I going to receive traffic news on the go?

That's my objection to FM switch-off, Stan. Not quality of digital (which in the right circumstances is far better), but usability. When reception is poor FM degrades gracefully and you can still hear the news. And why ditch a perfectly usable lofi tranny that's just right for the news on radio 4?

StanleyB
12-03-2010, 07:42
Worse of all is that the British manufacturing industry won't be benefiting from the manufacturing the alternatives to FM radios. However, up and down the country landfill sites will be catering for unwanted radio sets. I sense a mass rebellion of epic proportion on the horizon. Who was the bright spark that dreamt up this disastrous idea anyhow?

The Grand Wazoo
12-03-2010, 07:48
Only as a stand by...in case we are defeated.

Be assured, Neil. They will have their way.

Marco
12-03-2010, 08:14
I just lurve some of the rousing 'Braveheart'-type speeches in this thread.... As they say up in Scotland: "Get right intae them!" :eyebrows:

And quite right, too - digital is pish, and sounds thin, tinny (and artificially 'processed') in comparison... Nothing beats the wonderfully rich tone of a top-notch vintage analogue tuner with a good aerial - end of!

Marco.

Spectral Morn
12-03-2010, 08:36
Be assured, Neil. They will have their way.

...But they are afraid of a middle class rebellion (why not a working class one, or upper class one ?). Lets try and make it an agenda for the politicians.

"They will have their way" defeatest talk Chris. You have as much to loose as the rest of us do.:(


Regards D S D L

Labarum
12-03-2010, 09:33
The Government wants to flog off the Band II frequencies to the highest bidder.

The Grand Wazoo
12-03-2010, 09:40
...But they are afraid of a middle class rebellion (why not a working class one, or upper class one ?). Lets try and make it an agenda for the politicians.

"They will have their way" defeatest talk Chris. You have as much to loose as the rest of us do.

As I (and others too) have said before, not enough people know or actually care enough to make a difference.

For goodness sake, they ignored the biggest popular 'rebellion' in modern history in order to conduct an illegal war in Iraq – my voice & that of millions of others fell upon deaf ears. In that case, we had international law and moral justice on our side. Do you think they're going to listen to the few voices of people who care about something as apparently ridiculous as sound quality? It's being done for financial reasons.

The thing that those who make these and other decisions need to understand is that quality and choice are not the same thing. This applies to our schools & hospitals just as much, if not more than the broadcasting industry.

The reason that the TV industry is undergoing a newly accelerated dive into mediocracy is as a direct result of the decision to allow an unprecedented choice in channels. The advertising industry has a finite annual spend, which has been diluted many times over and far beyond what is sustainable for the number of channels on offer. Anyone who has spent more that ten minutes watching TV in the US could have told them this was what was going to happen!

So, it's not defeatism Neil, but realism. You may not remember, but I predicted on David Price's thread that they would argue that they couldn't alienate those people who'd bought digital sets, whilst forgetting that many, many more people will be forced to scrap their (sometimes multiple) FM units? That's exactly what happened. You cannot deal with that sort of mindset – the decision has been made and it will stand. As I, and Brian, have intimated, the £ sign speaks far louder than you or I, or the collective voices of thousands of others (if they can be motivated to speak).

You & I between us own probably more tuners than the rest of the AoS membership put together(!), so yes, we have lots to lose. We may get a few years grace beyond that which has been proposed. I applaud your enthusiasm to try to make a difference. And please understand that I do speak up like you do, to those who could alter the situation if they were so motivated - I'm not by any means silent on this.
But we will lose the BBC on FM.

Labarum
12-03-2010, 09:54
Nothing beats the wonderfully rich tone of a top-notch vintage analogue tuner with a good aerial - end of!


Come on Marco. You are listening to a 21st century digital replay chain with the last leg of the transmission filtered through a 1950s medium that was brilliant in its day and was better than vinyl (when vinyl wasn't it's source). Today that medium simply "tone shapes" the accurate digital signal.

But, as I said, for all of that, we should keep it. Most folk are listening lofi and will continue to do so irrespective of the medium. Just leave it alone.

If quality (accuracy) is what you want, pull the signal off the internet or off satellite.

Labarum
12-03-2010, 09:54
Nothing beats the wonderfully rich tone of a top-notch vintage analogue tuner with a good aerial - end of!


Come on Marco. You are listening to a 21st century digital replay chain with the last leg of the transmission filtered through a 1950s medium that was brilliant in its day and was better than vinyl (when vinyl wasn't its source). Today that medium simply "tone shapes" the accurate digital signal.

But, as I said, for all of that, we should keep it. Most folk are listening lofi and will continue to do so irrespective of the medium. Just leave it alone.

If quality (accuracy) is what you want, pull the signal off the internet or off satellite and feed it to a good DAC.

Marco
12-03-2010, 10:40
I'm afraid we'll have to agree to differ, Brian. If you (or anyone else) can demonstrate a digital radio option that will outperform my vintage Sony tuner (and Ron Smith) in my system (based on my judgement criteria), where we can compare and assess our respective benchmarks, then I will gladly hold my hands up and admit what you're saying is right.

However, until then......... ;)

Perhaps you would relish the challenge? Your visit (with all the necessary accoutrements - I already have a satellite dish) would be most welcome :)

At the end of the day it's about what's nicer to listen to (and I don't mean coloured), not what is deemed as technically more 'accurate'. This is not the HDD audio forum, populated by blinkered measurement obsessives - we're rather more discerning than that.

Marco.

Labarum
12-03-2010, 12:43
. . . (based on my judgement criteria) . . .


That makes you legislature, judge and jury then?

:)

It would be lovely to meet you and listen together, Marco.



This is not the HDD audio forum, populated by blinkered measurement obsessives - we're rather more discerning than that.


Agreed. And you have probably noticed I have opposed the orthodoxy in that place too. In the end "Am I hearing music?" can only be a subjective judgement, although one that cannot fly in the face of objective data.

And, as I have tried to suggest to them "accurate" is a slippery term which must involve some sort of informed collective judgement.

But like you Marco, I just know that my Squeezebox and Beresford Caiman DAC sound better that my Quad 77 FM Tuner when listening to Classic FM or BBC Radio 3. Other classical music stations I cannot compare.

Joe
12-03-2010, 12:58
Agreed. And you have probably noticed I have opposed the orthodoxy in that place too. In the end "Am I hearing music?" can only be a subjective judgement, although one that cannot fly in the face of objective data.



Not only have I been banned from there (reason unknown) I'm actually blocked from even looking at it!

Stratmangler
12-03-2010, 13:06
Not only have I been banned from there (reason unknown) I'm actually blocked from even looking at it!

There's no indication on the member list of your being banning - I've just been over there to have a look.
I've also looked at your posts, and there's nothing contentious there either IMO.
:scratch:

Joe
12-03-2010, 13:09
There's no indication on the member list of your being banning - I've just been over there to have a look.
I've also looked at your posts, and there's nothing contentious there either IMO.
:scratch:

It's weird. I was happily posting away, then next time I logged on I got a message saying I was not allowed to post, then later that day, a message saying I was banned. No reason given, no warning, no nothing. I've PM'd the Administrator, but had no response so far.

Alex_UK
12-03-2010, 20:27
They obviously knew you were bound to get yourself banned at some point, so cut out the middle man! :lol:

You don't have to be a member to view afaik though? (I'm not, and can see posts) - try renewing your IP address? (reboot (unplug) your broadband modem) unless you have a static one, in which case you're screwed!))

Marco
12-03-2010, 20:38
It's weird. I was happily posting away, then next time I logged on I got a message saying I was not allowed to post, then later that day, a message saying I was banned. No reason given, no warning, no nothing. I've PM'd the Administrator, but had no response so far.

Joe, basically if you don't 'fit in' there (i.e you're not an Apple or AVI fanboy) you get hoofed. I got the same treatment.

I presume you must have been 'winding up' the faithful? Read as: saying anything negative about computer audio, Apple or AVI? ;)

Marco.

Joe
12-03-2010, 21:09
Joe, basically if you don't 'fit in' there (i.e you're not an Apple or AVI fanboy) you get hoofed. I got the same treatment.

I presume you must have been 'winding up' the faithful? Read as: saying anything negative about computer audio, Apple or AVI? ;)

Marco.

Nothing negative at all, as far as I can remember; I've not heard any AVI stuff, and I'm typing this on an Apple Mac! I actually wanted to know about computer audio. Ah well, one of life's mysteries I guess.

Joe
12-03-2010, 21:11
They obviously knew you were bound to get yourself banned at some point, so cut out the middle man! :lol:

You don't have to be a member to view afaik though? (I'm not, and can see posts) - try renewing your IP address? (reboot (unplug) your broadband modem) unless you have a static one, in which case you're screwed!))

Cheers for that Alex; I think it's dynamic, so worth a try.

Spectral Morn
12-03-2010, 22:27
Cheers for that Alex; I think it's dynamic, so worth a try.

All you need to do is clean/remove your cookies etc. You will be able to view then.


Regards D S D L

The Grand Wazoo
29-03-2010, 15:56
The House of Lords Select Committee on Communications released their report on DAB today.
The 2nd Report of Session 2009–10. The digital switchover of television and radio in the United Kingdom. Report with Evidence.



So what do they think of the analogue / digital radio debate in the House of Lords then?

Well, the whole report can be boiled down to the following:

Digital radio isn't brilliant.
The whole issue is a mess.
If we carry on as the Government propose it'll be a mess.
If we go back to where we were it'll be a bigger mess. "To go back on this policy now would risk turning confusion into an utter shambles"
We (the public) don't really want it, but we're going to have to lump it.



Get this though:
90 per cent of the UK population listens to radio, and 94 per cent of us are happy with FM.
....and especially this
The findings accept most of the criticisms of DAB and the proposed switchover.
"The gradual rate of take-up of digital radio services does not suggest that consumers are enticed by the reception quality, extra functionality or the digital-only content so far available."

The report recommends that we just take a deep breath & get on with the Digital Switchover. The advice is to implement the Digital Radio Working Group's recommendation to expand DAB coverage to 94% of the population. There's no indication of how this is all to be paid for despite all the broadcasters having already stated that they will need support for this.

As for us, the users:
"The Government must ensure that advice goes to retailers and the public that when purchasing radios, consumers should purchase sets that include a digital tuner."

But wait – they're going to pay us for our FM tuners!
"The Government should encourage the industry to devise a sensible scrappage scheme, recognising that the industry, manufacturers and retailers, will benefit heavily from the new sales generated by digital switchover." ………………"the Government inform consumers as soon as possible as to how the Waste Electrical and Electronic Equipment (WEEE) regulations will operate for disposal of analogue radios".

……..but the value will be "the residual value" & who will decide that?

As for car radios:
They propose that car manufacturers to fit a 'multi-standard chip'. They don't say whether this should be for FM & DAB or DAB & DAB+

If we've got to have digital, there must surely be something better than DAB?
They recognize that DAB+ may be the way to go, but we should continue wasting cash in the meantime. There is no timetable for the beginning of DAB+ broadcasting because they think that we've invested too much in vanilla flavoured DAB. But they say that there should be a timetable for the rolling out of multi-standard (DAB & DAB+) gear.

The list of witnesses is interesting only in how unispiring it is:
Digital UK
Digital Switchover Help Scheme
Digital Radio UK
Digital Radio Working Group
Ofcom
RadioCentre
Lincs FM Group
Global Radio
Mr Grant Goddard, Mr John Myers, UKRD and UTV Radio
BBC
Age Concern
Help the Aged
Consumer Focus,
Royal National Institute of Blind People
Wireless for the Bedridden
Department for Culture, Media and Sport
Community Media Association
Intellect
RETRA
Society of Motor Manufacturers and Traders
Arqiva
Brighton & Hove Radio
Channel 4
Channel 5 Broadcasting Ltd (Five)
Consumer Focus Scotland
Frome Community Productions CIC
Preston Community Arts Project
Mr Michael Starks
Voice of the Listener and Viewer
Which?
Wireless for the Blind Fund
RadioCentre


The full report:
HOUSE OF LORDS
Select Committee on Communications
2nd Report of Session 2009–10
Digital switchover of television and radio in the United Kingdom
Report with Evidence

........is available at
http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld200910/ldselect/ldcomuni/100/100.pdf

Krisbee
29-03-2010, 16:02
Oh Christ, we're stuffed

Ali Tait
29-03-2010, 17:13
I listened to a debate on this on the way to work this morning on radio 4.I was quite surprised to hear the presenter having a go at the DAB chap about how poor DAB sounded next to FM.First time I've heard this mentioned outside a hi-fi circles.The DAB chap didn't really have an answer,except to say that digital radio is in it's infancy! Guess he doesn't know FM is 14-bit then....

Spectral Morn
29-03-2010, 17:25
Well time for an uprising me thinks.....



D S D L :(

Ali Tait
29-03-2010, 17:55
Aye,up the revolution!

Spectral Morn
29-03-2010, 18:00
Once my e-zine has a wee bit more time behind it, I will be making a right royal pain in the arse of myself. I will be requesting interviews with all involved.....may not get them but I will try. Plus I will try and steer the agenda of talk shows etc that are dealing with it. No more smooth soap BS.

Adventures in High Fidelity Audio will be championing FM to the bitter end. Either we get a stay of execution or something better (I don't really want that), but DAB+ may well be better.

So if I disappear it means the man has come and got me :eek::lol::lol::lol:


Regards D S D L

Beechwoods
29-03-2010, 19:02
Many thanks for the digest Chris. Today is indeed a bit of a tipping point in the whole DAB debate. The whole scrappage concept goes to show just who the government and loyal opposition have lined themselves up with on this one.

The only saving grace is that local and community radio will retain some FM bandwidth. Now that could make for some very interesting programming, if stations like Resonance FM (http://resonancefm.com/) in London can provide a blueprint to other low-power, local broadcasters.

The Grand Wazoo
29-03-2010, 19:17
FM radio is not the end of it though - many people are not aware that all of this is also going to affect live music too.

This is because bunched in amongst the analogue TV channel frequencies that the Government are planning to sell off are gaps that are used as buffer zones to prevent inter-station interference. These are the wavelengths that are commonly used by radio microphones and the changes will mean that users of these devices will be acting illegally. Think about all of the places and organisations that use radio mics.

Once again, the Govt. have said that they will buy back any equipment made obsolete, but they have a cut off date for when the gear was bought. They will again, be paying 'residual value' as set by them.

There's a campiagn to challenge this:
http://www.saveoursounduk.com/

Press release from November 2009:
http://saveoursound.files.wordpress.com/2009/11/sos-launch-press-release-10th-november-2009-doc.pdf

Nick_G
30-03-2010, 06:10
I'll post what I said in another forum:

The Government are in panic mode. They spent millions of pounds promoting DAB, with the original promises of CD-quality sound, much more choice and internet-like interactivity coming to nothing. They've buried their heads in the sand about DAB+, because they don't want to admit that DAB was a mistake and have wasted all that money. On top of all that, the possible closure of the Asian Network and 6 music is sending a negative message, and from a sound quality point of view, DAB is a step backwards. The powers that be know all this but one thing they seem to find almost impossible to do is to admit they were wrong, and by giving out all these confusing messages about switchover and FM switch-off, and refusing to try to catch up with the rest of the world they are ironically contributing to its demise.

As for not being able to alienate those people who bought a DAB set, yes you can! I bought an Arcam Alpha 10 DAB tuner 10 years ago as back then it was a new and exciting proposition. The rot started in 2002 when the BBC decided to cram all it's new stations on to it's existing multiplex and thus degrading the audio quality. This set a precedent and is the reason why the average bit rate is 128kb/s or less.

I eBayed the Arcam a couple of years ago as I just didn't use it any more.

AudiOH!
30-03-2010, 08:27
They will again, be paying 'residual value' as set by them.

There's a campiagn to challenge this:
http://www.saveoursounduk.com/

Press release from November 2009:
http://saveoursound.files.wordpress.com/2009/11/sos-launch-press-release-10th-november-2009-doc.pdf


The residual value of an obsolete item is nil!


Les