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Marco
16-06-2009, 09:16
F.A.O Dave (DSJR, and also anyone else),

Could you do me a favour and ask what Adam (Beobloke's) problem is with the M3D here on pfm:

http://www.pinkfishmedia.net/forum/showthread.php?t=64664 (see post #12).

I've noted your response on page 2 - you tell 'em, mate!!

HFW is by far my favourite hi-fi magazine, and I get on well with David Price, but I can't for the life of me understand what Adam (and Noel) has got against classic cartridges? They unfairly 'diss' the 103 at every opportunity and now it looks like the M3D is set for similar treatment... :(

What is their problem? They promote all sorts of vintage gear in the magazine, so why not also cartridges that can still compete with, and in many areas outperform, their modern counterparts?

What rips my knitting is that, on one hand, neither of them bats an eyelid (rightly so) extolling the virtues of Garrards or vintage valve gear, but when it comes to cartridges from a similar era, none in their minds can be any good. There’s no reason why well designed vintage cartridges can’t perform as well as some revered vintage equipment, given the right operating environment. Indeed, given such an environment, extensive listening experience tells me quite categorically that they do!!!

Perhaps someone (preferably Adam) could explain the double standards in evidence here? :confused:

Has Adam even heard an M3D? If not, he could try fitting one (with an N21D stylus) to the excellent Jelco SA-750D he reviewed, and so likes, including a heavy headhshell, put that on his Garrard, and then report his findings in the magazine – that way he’d be in a position to know what he’s talking about... Or would that affect his shares in Ortofon, Goldring and Audio Technica? ;)

Anyway, if you could raise this issue with him on pfm on my behalf I'd be much appreciated. You could even link to the discussion here and draw his attention to my comments.

Marco.

RobHolt
16-06-2009, 13:10
Hi Marco,

I haven't heard the M3D but I have used a DL103 and several other what we'd now call vintage cartridges over the years.

Foe me they are a very mixed bag with some superb qualities but also some nasties which almost always comes down to the use of conical or basic elliptical styli.
Focusing on the 103 for a moment, it sounds solid, rich and for the most part very coherent in a way that escapes many modern designs. But you cannot escape the basic laws of physics and a conical stylus of the type used does suffer high tracing distortion at high frequencies. Note I said 'tracing' and not 'tracking' as they are quite *different.

With a conical tip, the diamond profile has a wide radius which fits the recorded undulations in the groove wall very well at mid and low frequencies, but not at high - it is simply too wide to accurately trace the high frequency 'wiggles'.
Two things happen as a result. Firstly, distortion is high and rises as the stylus moves across the disc (I'm talking double figure THD) and secondly the tip suffers scanning loss resulting in the frequency response drooping as you move from the outer to inner grooves - this is about 5db on the 103 and will be more on the M3D.

Those are very real negatives that can be shown in basic testing and you cannot escape them without moving to fine line or other advanced tip profiles.
That doesn't make them poor cartridges as everyone will have a different reaction to the balance of strengths and weaknesses.
I'm incredibly sensitive to this to the point where I wont even use elliptical styli - it has to be a VDH, FG, MR or similar profile so I react quite negatively to the sound of a 103, and about 60% of other cartridges on the market.

People certainly shouldn't slag-off these old designs though because, as I say, in many areas they teach modern designs a trick or two.




* Tracking distortion refers to mid and low frequency tracking ability and is determined largely by cantilever hinge compliance, VTF and damping. Tracing distortion is determined largely by the tip profile - the precise fit of the scanning edge of the tip to the HF waves pressed into the groove wall.

Steve Toy
16-06-2009, 13:16
I think that may well be the answer needed.

griffo104
16-06-2009, 14:12
Those are very real negatives that can be shown in basic testing and you cannot escape them without moving to fine line or other advanced tip profiles.
That doesn't make them poor cartridges as everyone will have a different reaction to the balance of strengths and weaknesses.
I'm incredibly sensitive to this to the point where I wont even use elliptical styli - it has to be a VDH, FG, MR or similar profile so I react quite negatively to the sound of a 103, and about 60% of other cartridges on the market.



Sorry but I can understand the negativity of the DL103. Awful cart. I know that I had it in a Techno arm and sebsequently we all now know it's no good in a Rega based arm but I've subsequently heard it on SL1210's basic arm and still don't get it.

Marco
16-06-2009, 14:32
Hi Griffo,

How's it going? :)

If you've read the multitude of threads here on the subject (particularly those I've written) you should know that the stock Technics arm, unmodified, is not really suitable for MC cartridges. If you read the archive you'll see why.

Therefore, I'm not surprised you still think that the 103 is an "awful cart"!

Listen to one on a Jelco SA-750D (or something of that ilk) with a heavyweight headshell, through a properly matched transformer, and the results will be very different.

I still don't think though that, like Rob, it'll quite be your 'thang', but you'll certainly be able to hear what it does well that is so valued by 1000s of enthusiasts like me :smoking:

Rob,

Superb post! I'm in the middle of some work right now, so don't have much time, but rest assured I will reply in detail later! :cool:

Marco.

griffo104
16-06-2009, 14:37
Hi Griffo,

How's it going? :)

If you've read the multitude of threads here on the subject (particularly those I've written) you should know that the stock Technics arm, unmodified, is not really suitable for MC cartridges. If you read the archive you'll see why.

Therefore, I'm not surprised you still think that the 103 is an "awful cart"!

Listen to one on a Jelco SA-750D with a heavyweight headshell, through a properly matched transformer, and the results will be very different.

I still don't think though that, like Rob, it'll quite be your 'thang', but you'll certainly be able to hear what it does well that is so valued by 1000s of enthusiasts like me :smoking:

Rob,

Superb post! I'm in the middle of some work right now, so don't have much time, but rest assured I will reply in detail later! :cool:

Marco.

I think you are right Marco - there's only so many chances you can give a component (I think that's 5 for the DL103 including in my own system and I still don't get it)

Ironically there are still many hifi nuts out there in forum land (do a search) and also on dealer pages who still say it's a good match for the Rega based arms (I can think of one reviewer who uses it on a P3)

It's still a good price, even after the price increases in the cart world at the moment, so I can see why it's so tempting for so many people but the cart should be the last piece of the puzzle, not the first if you see what I'm saying.

For me Denon make much better carts in the DL301 and 304.

RobHolt
16-06-2009, 14:41
I think that may well be the answer needed.

Steve, feel free to use or quote it in response if you wish.

RobHolt
16-06-2009, 14:54
I think you are right Marco - there's only so many chances you can give a component (I think that's 5 for the DL103 including in my own system and I still don't get it)

Ironically there are still many hifi nuts out there in forum land (do a search) and also on dealer pages who still say it's a good match for the Rega based arms (I can think of one reviewer who uses it on a P3)

It's still a good price, even after the price increases in the cart world at the moment, so I can see why it's so tempting for so many people but the cart should be the last piece of the puzzle, not the first if you see what I'm saying.

For me Denon make much better carts in the DL301 and 304.

There is something about the sound of a low compliance cartridge (MM or MC) with a solid body that shines through in the sound. They don't bob around in the groove like higher compliance modern carts which I'm sure translates to stability and solidity in the sound presentation. You need higher VTF so there is no free lunch but the quality is hard to miss.

The old Supex cartridges had this quality as did the old Linn Asak but they do need a substantial arm to work well. Regas have the mechanical integrity but lack mass.

griffo104
16-06-2009, 15:04
Rob, I agree with you. However I get much batter stabilty, imaging, detail, and bass from my Lyra Dorian on the Technoarm - and I don't need a step-up to get that either. Yes, it is much more expensive than the DL103 but for me the deck and arm are sorted the cart is the last piece - and it's a great piece, imo :).

I also far prefer the DL301ii which I think is a very good cart for the money.

I listen to the DL103 against more modern carts such as the Ortofon Rondo series or the latest MM carts they are producing now, the Lyras, the Benz Micro carts, (even the cheapest Benz Micros) and I find it lacking in so many areas for me that I find hard to see why there is such a following for the cart.

As mentioned, I don't get it but I'm not sure if that's the cart that's the problem or me :scratch:

RobHolt
16-06-2009, 15:36
In fact the Dorian is a stiffy, so to speak :)
Does have a whopping great HF peak though so needs very careful system matching.
Super clean and pure though.

Choosing cartridges is a bit like choosing your favorite chocolates - there is flavour for everyone.

NRG
16-06-2009, 15:42
Hi Marco,


* Tracking distortion refers to mid and low frequency tracking ability and is determined largely by cantilever hinge compliance, VTF and damping. Tracing distortion is determined largely by the tip profile - the precise fit of the scanning edge of the tip to the HF waves pressed into the groove wall.


Hi Rob,

Yes or in other words: Tracking refers to the ability of the cartridge to keep the stylus in unbroken contact with the wall of the record groove.

Tracing refers to how accurately a stylus in full contact with the groove wall is able to follow the grooves path. As you say the tracing ability of a cart is a function of the stylus profile.

As the wall curvature begins to exceed the radius of a conical stylus the stylus can no longer follow the groove path and a HF loss occurs also known as scanning loss.

There's also another one called Pinch loss / effect, there's a difference between the cutting head and stylus cross sections as the record is cut the groove can narrow at certain points and this narrowing causes the stylus to be pinched or squeezed upwards adding further distortion to the signal.

DSJR
16-06-2009, 16:01
You're ALL right as far as I'm aware and although I'm doing this with old cast-offs with still good styli (just), I can well imagine why so many far eastern audio people have a collection of cartridges to use...

I honestly thought the M3D was going to be a right dog, yet the Finetone N21 stylus has almost a modern looking cantilever, although the shank mounted diamond welded on the end takes it back to the Sonotone 9TAHC and Acos GP91 era... The thing is, some of the supposedly crappy 1970's pressings I have sounded much better with this cartridge than they did with the OC9 (which with wear may be tracing the bottom of the groove on some of these records) or even the NOS MC30 Super I was recently given. I put this down to the conical tip playing the top of the groove, rather than the flattened(?) bottom.

I do have to say that modern carts like the AT33PTG, Denon 304 (possibly) and OC0ML would suit me and my current system best overall, but I can see some brighter and more "forward" balanced systems working best with a properly armed 103 or a re-built Troika or summat.

As to HFW, they're all children there from what I can see (even David Price, who always writes like 42 going on 20 IMO). When I was twenty, everything over five years old was ancient cr@p and the Radford and Quad valve amps I bought in 1976 were ancient antiquities - the Radford was "only" nine years old at this point, having been bought in 1967, the Quad set was bought new in 1962, so was an ancient fourteen years old. yet people on PFM regard twenty five year old Naim amps as "modern," when their basic ss designs pre-date the Radford and come from the 1950's Quad era..........

I gave up with the mags a long time ago. HFW is the most readable of its type, but their sometimes misguided appreciations of stuff I once sold new put me off again.......

Historians can never quite "get" what life was like hundreds of years ago and audio memory transfers this to decades..

Marco
16-06-2009, 18:04
Hi Rob,


For me they are a very mixed bag with some superb qualities but also some nasties which almost always comes down to the use of conical or basic elliptical styli.
Focusing on the 103 for a moment, it sounds solid, rich and for the most part very coherent in a way that escapes many modern designs. But you cannot escape the basic laws of physics and a conical stylus of the type used does suffer high tracing distortion at high frequencies. Note I said 'tracing' and not 'tracking' as they are quite *different.


None of that can be disputed, but what's important is how the issues you've outlined manifest themselves in the context of a particular system, taking into consideration the presentational priorities (and musical tastes) of the listener. How a DL-103 or M3D is partnered and set-up also has a huge bearing on how significant those issues are likely to be. Depending on all that, it will vary according to listeners from very important to virtually of no importance.

I'm firmly in the latter camp because, although I know exactly what you mean, I have gone to great effort (not to mention not inconsiderable expense) to ensure that both the 103 and M3D have been provided with the optimum environment in which to perform to their maximum potential - in the case of the 103, as intended by the manufacturer when it was originally introduced. This is crucial to truly be able to hear what this cartridge can do. Therefore, in my case, the negative effects you mention have been minimised to the status of virtual irrelevance.

Quite simply, the 103 cannot be assessed accurately in a modern turntable or tonearm, and without a properly matched transformer or head amplifier. In that respect, as far as the 103 is concerned, the people who are in a position to enjoy it at its best like I can, through having all the correct ancillaries in place, are few and far between, although there are some on this forum. You can’t fit a square peg into a round hole, which is akin to fitting a 103 onto the likes of a Rega.

How many people do you reckon have gone to the effort and expense that I have to get things right? The 103 may be a cheap cartridge to buy, but it's far from cheap to get it to work properly! ;)

With respect, Rob, I don't even think that you could say that you've heard a 103 at its absolute best. And then of course, there are 103s and there are 103s... There is a huge difference in the sonic presentation between a bog standard 103 and a 103Pro or SA. Have you ever done the comparison?

Of course, you're quite right, none of that will address the issues of the stylus tip, as you've outlined, but again it goes back to what your priorities are and also choosing your compromises. There is no such thing as the 'perfect' cartridge. I value tone and timbre, 'groove and flow', rhythmic, funky-sounding bass, and a beautiful 'valve-like' midrange, much more than forensic detail retrieval, absolute (clinical) clarity, or treble definition - the former are all renowned traits of the 103, and the M3D shares its magic in those areas.

I find 95% of modern cartridges a cold and dispassionate listen, as they major on information retrieval at the expense of tonal colour and richness of harmonic detail, both of which, IMO, make music sound like music and not a poor man's processed facsimile of such. It's rather like comparing valve to solid-state amplifiers in that respect. And sorry, Griffo, but a Lyra Dorian or Argo takes my fillings out (I've owned both)!

Don't get me wrong though, I don't like a warm, cuddly sound either (none of my gear sounds like that) - I just like music to sound 'natural' and unforced, and with proper 'foundation'.


I'm incredibly sensitive to this to the point where I wont even use elliptical styli - it has to be a VDH, FG, MR or similar profile so I react quite negatively to the sound of a 103, and about 60% of other cartridges on the market.


That's absolutely fine - you know what floats your boat and how to get it. That's half the battle! :)


People certainly shouldn't slag-off these old designs though because, as I say, in many areas they teach modern designs a trick or two.


That's precisely my issue with what seems to be the stance at HFW. David Price and I regularly exchange emails, and sometimes phone calls, on what we're both up to regarding modifying our SL-1210s, so I have no problem with the magazine as such, or David - but I do take issue with the apparent dichotomy between Adam on one hand extolling the virtues of 1950s technology Garrards or Lencos (and also valve amps from a similar era or earlier) and on the other, slagging off cartridges of the same or a similar vintage!

Where's the parity??

I'm not talking about some old tat fit for the bin that can't compete sonically in today's marketplace (although I'm sure he would argue differently, and largely I suspect from a position of relative ignorance) - both the 103 and M3D are very capable designs when used in the right set-up, just as a 301 or a Lenco is.

I said this the last time when I pulled Noel Keywood up for his ridiculous remarks about the 103 to a reader's letter, but it seems to me that unless 'Ortofon', 'Goldring' or 'Audio Technica' are emblazoned on the front of a cartridge, HFW don't want to know. They must realise that there's a whole big cartridge world out there outside of designs from those manufacturers to fit a multitude of different people's requirements, but rarely is anything else ever recommended.

What's your view on this, Rob?

Marco.

P.S Could either you or Dave inform Adam on pfm that this discussion is taking place here. I would him to join and offer his input - ta! :cool:

DSJR
16-06-2009, 18:12
I've had the "Marco" effect again!!!

I dug out Alan Parsons' "Pyramid" LP out. I haven't played this for decades as I bought the CD when it first came out (can't afford to get the AP remastered editions). On the OC9, B&O 20CL and ADC 26 with mint tips, I was getting unbelieveable distortion (I suspect crunged up tips due to Permastat or similar used in the seventies). Switching to the M3D/N21 made this record very playable, although it still wasn't that good - I'm not blaming anything but the record this time. No dullness at side end either.

RobHolt
16-06-2009, 18:54
Quite simply, the 103 cannot be assessed accurately in a modern turntable or tonearm, and without a properly matched transformer or head amplifier. In that respect, as far as the 103 is concerned, the people who are in a position to enjoy it at its best like I can, through having all the correct ancillaries in place, are few and far between, although there are some on this forum. You can’t fit a square peg into a round hole, which is akin to fitting a 103 onto the likes of a Rega.

........

With respect, Rob, I don't even think that you could say that you've heard a 103 at its absolute best. And then of course, there are 103s and there are 103s... There is a huge difference in the sonic presentation between a bog standard 103 and a 103Pro or SA. Have you ever done the comparison?

........

What's your view on this, Rob?



My view is that the best aspects of the 103 are further enhanced by use in an appropriate arm. All that is good about it and others gets better - but the negative remains because this is completely outside of the influence of the arm. A Rega RB series arm is not appropriate.
SME IV & V works well with some mass loading.

High frequency tracing is determined by the tip. If that tip cannot accurately trace high frequencies (and a conical cannot) without producing considerable distortion, it doesn't matter what arm the cartridge is attached to.

What matters is how much this distortion bothers you, particularly when assessed alongside the positives.
For me, the see-saw tips too far in the wrong direction and I therefore prefer a good modern Dynavector, AT or Lyra.
I suspect some of the HFW folk have a similar view, in which case they should say so clearly and not just dismiss vintage cartridges without pointing out the good things.

I have never heard a M3D but would like to try one. I've yet to hear anything with a conical tip that I could live with as my main cartridge, including a raft of other Shure, Stanton, Pickering, Ortofon and Satin (remember those?) plus a good few with very basic ellipticals. Grados for example all produce lots of tracing distortion.

Mike
16-06-2009, 18:57
I've just had a look at the pfm thread, and, err, what's all the fuss about? :scratch:

He doesn't like the M3D or 103... so what? Does that mean he needs to come here and account for himself or summat? :confused:

Jeez, lighten up!....

Marco
16-06-2009, 19:08
No, not at all. You do have a habit of missing the point sometimes, Mike! And I'm perfectly 'lightened up', thanks.

Try re-reading the last part of my reply to Rob - *that* is the issue I have and what this thread is all about.

It's something which bothers me every time I read some of the stuff in the magazine, and Adam's comments on pfm have compounded it. I buy the magazine every month so I'm entitled to my opinion. Therefore, if I've got something to say, I'll say it, and I will use the fortunate position I'm in here for that purpose.

My 'summoning' of Adam is merely to obtain the rationale on his way of thinking so I can better understand where he's coming from. No harm in that surely, is there? :cool:

Rob,

I'll come back to you again later - too many things going on now :)

Marco.

Mike
16-06-2009, 19:22
You do have a habit of missing the point sometimes, Mike! And I'm perfectly 'lightened up', thanks.

No!... I have habit of noticing when you 'go off on one' if someone says anything remotely negative about a piece of equipment you happen to own! :lol:

When I say 'lighten up' I mean 'so what, you enjoy what you own, that should be all that matters'!...

So, lighten up! ;)

Marco
16-06-2009, 19:29
Wrong again, I'm afraid. I'm merely highlighting obvious inconsistencies written by some of the staff of HFW, as I've done before quite legitimately.

You need to learn to differentiate between "going off on one" and making a valid observation, albeit robustly expressed ;)

That's just my style.

More later!

Marco.

Mike
16-06-2009, 19:47
OK. ;)

I'll keep my gob shut....

Marco
16-06-2009, 21:51
Rob,


My view is that the best aspects of the 103 are further enhanced by use in an appropriate arm. All that is good about it and others gets better - but the negative remains because this is completely outside of the influence of the arm. A Rega RB series arm is not appropriate.
SME IV & V works well with some mass loading.

High frequency tracing is determined by the tip. If that tip cannot accurately trace high frequencies (and a conical cannot) without producing considerable distortion, it doesn't matter what arm the cartridge is attached to.


I completely agree with all of that - how could I not? It's a fact :)


What matters is how much this distortion bothers you, particularly when assessed alongside the positives.


Yes indeed. However, I'd add the word "perceived" before distortion, because no matter what distortion is measured objectively, it's what's heard (or not) by the listener that counts in the final analysis.

With either my bog standard 103, 103R or SA installed in my various NOS (high-mass) headshells on the Jelco, and the signal fed into the A23 SUT or HA-500, through to the valve MM stage in my Croft, I can hear no distortion which for me detracts from their wonderful way of making music, even at the end of side, which is reputed to be a common problem with conical tips - and that's all that really matters :smoking:

I do think that although one can't change the laws of physics, meticulous attention to detail in terms of partnering ancillaries, and correct set-up, ameliorates a significant percentage of the issues raised by the limitations of the conical tip. But like I said, it's what the listener perceives in the final analysis that matters - some will be more sensitive to certain types of distortion than others.

The other thing is, the conical stylus is partly responsible for the beguiling musical qualities of the 103 when partnered and set-up optimally. I've heard re-tipped ones with 'posher' styli sound more finessed in a hi-fi sense (the sort of stuff that Lyra fans seem to value), but in turn lose the very qualities which make the 103 special in the first place. I've also heard this with the EMT XSD-15 (another favourite of mine), as there are versions of the same cartridge available with different styli, including your favourite VDH. But it's the conical tipped one, which sounds the most musical - that is if by 'musical' you share the same values as I do.

It also depends a lot, I feel, on the particular type of music you listen to. I maintain that the 103 is more a rock, pop, dance, and jazz cartridge than a classical one. Considering that I rarely listen to classical music, my 103(s), and my ears, are not liable to be exposed to the challenges of reproducing that type of music accurately. That's not to say that the former genres aren't also challenging in many areas, just that the particular requirements of classical music are an obstacle my 103s don't have to cross. A cartridge with a fine-line stylus is definitely better for that purpose.

The M3D/N21D combo in my system is superb with pretty much anything, and is in my opinion overall significantly better than any DL-103, even the SA. It is unquestionably up there with an SPU, in terms of its musical abilities, and deserves to be held in similar reverence amongst aficionados. The best oldies are most definitely goodies, so Adam if you're reading this, do yourself a favour: go out and find an M3D, install it as I indicated before, and experience a joy with music on vinyl that no modern cartridge can replicate... ;)


For me, the see-saw tips too far in the wrong direction and I therefore prefer a good modern Dynavector, AT or Lyra.
I suspect some of the HFW folk have a similar view, in which case they should say so clearly and not just dismiss vintage cartridges without pointing out the good things.


Indeed! But I won't dwell on this any longer, as I've made my point now and don't wish to moan any more like an old woman :eyebrows:

Hopefully, Adam will take my comments on board. I thus look forward to a forthcoming glowing review of the M3D in a future edition of HFW :lolsign:


I have never heard a M3D but would like to try one.


I'd urge you to seek one out, Rob, but *only* if you've got the right arm and headshell (it's a bloody big bugger) to use it with - and you fit an N21D stylus, not the higher-tracking N3D. The former gives more refinement and finesse without losing any of the M3D's musical abilities. That done; the sonic rewards are substantial for such a small outlay (around £120 in total).

Marco.

DSJR
17-06-2009, 19:28
... and mine cost me nothing........................................... ........ Thanks to Iain B and Tony L for the privilege of now owning one of these..

David Price
02-07-2009, 23:51
In defence of Hi-Fi World, I think the point is that we're into classic things if they're particularly distinguished in design/build and engineering terms - and not simply because they're classic. Hence we can enthuse about 301s, but not about DL103s. As Rob points out, there are engineering reasons, not just value-judgements/aesthetic reasons at play here - stylus profile being a fundamental stumbling point for the aforementioned Shure. Still, we all have to remember that whatever the design/specs/measured performance of a bit of kit is, two different people will never have quite the same reaction - for example I adore the Lyra Dorian and Noel can't stand it, yet we agree about so much else. Just shows you how personal cartridges can be!

David Price
03-07-2009, 00:00
Hi Marco - just also wanted to add that HFW is a 'coalition of the willing' rather than a single homogenous George Orwell-esque block - we accredit our writers (unlike What Hi-Fi) so readers can see who thinks what, and we're generally relaxed about differing views. Each unto their own, providing it's a sincerely held belief and arrived at logically and with a good degree of critical rigour. So you shouldn't look for, let alone expect, a uniform view. Can you imagine how tedious it would be if it was 'one for all'? Heaven knows, people's music tastes are varied enough! Cheers, David

Marco
03-07-2009, 00:01
Hi David,

I hope you are well and that the work load is easing!


In defence of Hi-Fi World, I think the point is that we're into classic things if they're particularly distinguished in design/build and engineering terms - and not simply because they're classic. Hence we can enthuse about 301s, but not about DL103s.


I understand that, but I honestly don't think that Noel, Adam or you have ever heard a DL-103 perform optimally, such as for example how I enjoy the 103SA in my own system, and so aren't really in a position to judge it with any great authority. I wait to be convinced differently. We touched on this before, if you remember :)

Also, be honest, have either Adam or you ever listened to a Shure M3D in anger, and if so when and in what context?

Marco.

Barry
03-07-2009, 00:11
The contributors to Hi Fi World magazine are of course entitled to their opinions; which extend to Decca cartridges, as well as to Denons and early Ortofons. It is unfortunate, however, that their opinions are so forceably expressed and not in a more conciliatory manner as implied in post 46.

Regards

RobHolt
03-07-2009, 00:38
for example I adore the Lyra Dorian and Noel can't stand it, yet we agree about so much else. Just shows you how personal cartridges can be!

I can easily understand a split of opinion there.
Both the Dorian and Argo have superb dynamics, transparency and life but both take off like a rocket at the top end.

You can get them to sound stunning with a bit of careful system matching - mainly with a speaker that starts rolling down smoothly at the top.

DSJR
03-07-2009, 07:05
A toppy Dorian will always upset the ragged Tannoy pepperpots as well - possibly :)

You know, I have to eat my words on the 103. having read various 'Choice reviews from a long time ago, the frequence range is flatter than most carts (especially the Linn ones), the tracking is more than ok at 2.5 grammes and the conical tip is well polished and aligned.

Sorry Mr price, just 'cos it's a "conical" shouldn't banish it to the side-lines. I've discovered the M3D/N21 is extremely kind to LP's that the fancy-tipped alternatives I have just don't want to know about. End-of-side isn't as bad as I thought it would be on many discs either. Groove stability seems excellent and the sense of air and atmosphere in the mid was quite unexpected (I'd never heard the N21 before).

I really think that the fine engineering that characterises the expensive "male jewellery" can possibly work against some cartridges when these things are mechanical devices. However, I would also say that an M3D/N21 may not sound good in a Rega P9..

David Price
04-07-2009, 15:57
Hi Marco - yes, getting slightly less mad now - but shouldn't speak too soon!

I've never heard a DL103SA - although as you know I've owned several exotic versions of the DL103 when I was living in Japan. Is the SA on sale in the UK? I am soooo tempted to get one in for review, but I have a grim sense of foreboding that whatever I/we say, we're asking for a keyboard lashing from you!

Anyway, yep - I've had an M3 (N21D). Came free with an STD305S/SME3009S2 I bought from a junk shop in Brighton back in 1992 for £40! Those were the days! It tracked fairly well at the recommended 2g, and made a very exciting and dynamic noise. Not the last word in finesse though, as I remember. I then switched to a new Audio Technica AT-33E, and didn't feel the need to go back, to be honest.

David Price
04-07-2009, 16:01
Hi Rob - yes, I'd say the Dorian is a stunner - absolutely gorgeous sound, providing you 'tune down' that top end slightly. Funnily enough it suited my SL1200/AO RB250 brilliantly, the SL1200 being blessed with a very grunty bass. Sonic fireworks, as they used to say in the eighties!

David Price
04-07-2009, 16:04
By the way, one of my fave vintage cartridges is the Supex SD900V - a cartridge I no longer have but remember it singing like a bird in my LP12/Ittok back in the late eighties. It had a deliciously deep, dark, velvety tone - and so lyrical. Does anyone like, have or rate this, or is nostalgia clouding my judgement? Would *love* to try one again...

WikiBoy
04-07-2009, 16:25
Why do people still bother to read them, what purpose do they serve any more, so who gives a sod what they think! Now the world is on-line there is far more information on *any* product, just search - users - abusers - sellers - fanbois - trolls and maybe even some factual information. Forums, blogs, on-line mags, and this is just the beginning - the industry as a whole will end up on-line.

It is no longer a main stream industry that can be supported by advertising, those days are gone and with it the people who wanted (and still want to) control the industry and control your decisions.

Enthusiasts building things for enthusiasts, enthusiast writing about and reviewing things for enthusiasts, enthusiasts selling second hand things to enthusiasts, enthusiasts modding things for enthusiast, and where is the retailer and the magazine and the professional reviewer in this, well no where! dead as the Dinosaur.

Marco
04-07-2009, 17:10
Hi David,


Hi Marco - yes, getting slightly less mad now - but shouldn't speak too soon!


Excellent. Hopefully that'll mean you'll have more time to post here. I always enjoy reading your contributions :)


I've never heard a DL103SA - although as you know I've owned several exotic versions of the DL103 when I was living in Japan. Is the SA on sale in the UK?


Yes, Dave Cawley even has them in stock! ;)


I am soooo tempted to get one in for review, but I have a grim sense of foreboding that whatever I/we say, we're asking for a keyboard lashing from you!


Well just DO it, David! I promise you won't get any keyboard lashing from me if I feel that it's had a 'fair hearing'. Can I make a suggestion though?

*Only* do it if you can get all the necessarily ancillaries together, because quite simply otherwise it will not get a 'fair hearing'. In that respect, you need your modified Techy, which would be ideal, fitted with a Jelco SA-750D and a suitably high-mass (NOS) headshell, and an A23 MC step-up transformer. Also, running it through a high quality all-valve MM stage would be a bonus, as experience tells me that the 103 responds very well to valves.

You are more than welcome to borrow my A23 for review purposes, and I can also supply a suitable NOS magnesium headshell (that are hard to find), as these are IMO better with 103s than the popular Sumikos which are now widely available.


Anyway, yep - I've had an M3 (N21D). Came free with an STD305S/SME3009S2 I bought from a junk shop in Brighton back in 1992 for £40! Those were the days! It tracked fairly well at the recommended 2g, and made a very exciting and dynamic noise. Not the last word in finesse though, as I remember. I then switched to a new Audio Technica AT-33E, and didn't feel the need to go back, to be honest.

Fair enough. But it could be one to revisit sometime in one of the magazine's 'Olde Worlde' features, fitted to say, a 301 or a Lenco in a suitably high-mass arm. I reckon that it might give you a pleasant surprise - just a thought!

Anyway, I'll give you a bell on Monday, if you're free, and we can shoot the shit about a few things :cool:

Marco.

DSJR
04-07-2009, 18:30
By the way, one of my fave vintage cartridges is the Supex SD900V - a cartridge I no longer have but remember it singing like a bird in my LP12/Ittok back in the late eighties. It had a deliciously deep, dark, velvety tone - and so lyrical. Does anyone like, have or rate this, or is nostalgia clouding my judgement? Would *love* to try one again...

David, I have two SD900's and one is mounted up and used occasionally. it sounds too heavy in the bass, tracking is marginal and the top sparkles far less naturally than an OC9 IMO.

Course it worked in a mid eighties LP12/Ittok. Most "in" speakers back then had little bass and too much midrange, perfectly balancing the SD900's measureable and audible response anomalies.

Dark and velvety tone does not a true HiFi (to the original source) product make. The M3D/N21 sounds more neutral, believe it or not.......

DSJR
04-07-2009, 18:36
Anyway, yep - I've had an M3 (N21D). Came free with an STD305S/SME3009S2 I bought from a junk shop in Brighton back in 1992 for £40! Those were the days! It tracked fairly well at the recommended 2g, and made a very exciting and dynamic noise. Not the last word in finesse though, as I remember. I then switched to a new Audio Technica AT-33E, and didn't feel the need to go back, to be honest.

It won't work in an SME as-is and mine is used with extra lead mass in the headshell. The Finetone "needle" tracks very well at 2g and I was surprised how well polished the diamond chip is to be honest - far better than the nails supplied with many Shures and Empires back in the seventies anyway..... perhaps you should remove that antiquated Koetsu thingy from the SMEV and try it in that - you may just have a shock......:lol:

anthonyTD
04-07-2009, 21:23
Hi David,



Excellent. Hopefully that'll mean you'll have more time to post here. I always enjoy reading your contributions :)



Yes, Dave Cawley even has them in stock! ;)



Well just DO it, David! I promise you won't get any keyboard lashing from me if I feel that it's had a 'fair hearing'. Can I make a suggestion though?

*Only* do it if you can get all the necessarily ancillaries together, because quite simply otherwise it will not get a 'fair hearing'. In that respect, you need your modified Techy, which would be ideal, fitted with a Jelco SA-750D and a suitably high-mass (NOS) headshell, and an A23 MC step-up transformer. Also, running it through a high quality all-valve MM stage would be a bonus, as experience tells me that the 103 responds very well to valves.

You are more than welcome to borrow my A23 for review purposes, and I can also supply a suitable NOS magnesium headshell (that are hard to find), as these are IMO better with 103s than the popular Sumikos which are now widely available.



Fair enough. But it could be one to revisit sometime in one of the magazine's 'Olde Worlde' features, fitted to say, a 301 or a Lenco in a suitably high-mass arm. I reckon that it might give you a pleasant surprise - just a thought!

Anyway, I'll give you a bell on Monday, if you're free, and we can shoot the shit about a few things :cool:

Marco.
hi marco,
just an idea, why dont you lend david your deck for the review!
it would make perfect sense as yours is already optimised.
anthony,TD...

Marco
04-07-2009, 21:41
Hi Anthony,

I was thinking of that, but I didn't wish to be too forward! ;)

Seriously though, David would be more than welcome to use my turntable to review the 103SA - there is even a perfectly good one already fitted :eyebrows:

Marco.

anthonyTD
04-07-2009, 21:47
Hi Anthony,

I was thinking of that, but I didn't wish to be too forward! ;)

Seriously though, David would be more than welcome to use my turntable to review the 103SA - there is even a perfectly good one already fitted :eyebrows:

Marco.
there you go then,perfect!!!!
A...

The Grand Wazoo
04-07-2009, 23:57
*Only* do it if you can get all the necessarily ancillaries together, because quite simply otherwise it will not get a 'fair hearing'. In that respect, you need your modified Techy, which would be ideal, fitted with a Jelco SA-750D and a suitably high-mass (NOS) headshell, and an A23 MC step-up transformer. Also, running it through a high quality all-valve MM stage would be a bonus, as experience tells me that the 103 responds very well to valves.

You are more than welcome to borrow my A23 for review purposes, and I can also supply a suitable NOS magnesium headshell (that are hard to find), as these are IMO better with 103s than the popular Sumikos which are now widely available.


Marco,
I don't want to piss on your cornflakes, mate, but this wouldn't be a review of a cartridge, would it? It's an entire vinyl playing set-up, & that's something altogether different from what Mr Price is talking about - after all, he's just done a review of a Technics TT/psu/arm/cartridge combination. I can hardly see another following right on the heels of it.

The problem is, this means that he'll review it out of the context of your suggestions. So the result is that he'll write something different to your experience, which will then be followed by the 'keyboard lashing' he speaks of!



(............or not?)

Marco
05-07-2009, 07:02
Hi Chris,

I take your point, so in that respect David could use another turntable if he wanted.

However, the fact is the other items mentioned are all essential in order to optimise the DL-103SA (or any 103), particularly the A23 SUT, otherwise forget about it - it's as simple as that. My view is that if you're going to do a job, you do it right.

It all boils down to how thorough David wants to be! The more thorough he is, the more accurate and meaingful his review will be :)

Marco.

WikiBoy
05-07-2009, 09:18
Hi Chris,


However, the fact is the other items mentioned are all essential in order to optimise the DL-103SA (or any 103), particularly the A23 SUT, otherwise forget about it
Marco.

That is complete nonsense, and sort of pedantic statement that so pollutes this forum. There is a complete missunderstanding about step up transformers and their function and limitations v load rejecting active phono stages.

Transformers are on the border of what is possible as all they do is exchange current for voltage, and there is bugger all current coming of a low output moving coil of any ilk. That is why carefull matching with a transformer pays dividends as it is like pushing a swing door, if there is no strength then they need to play together, if there is strength (voltage headroom) it pushes through anyway.

This nonsense about transformers is like trying to turn a liability into an asset. They were necessary when gain stages were too noisy, but now - with understanding - it is possible (and in my terms - simple) to design gain stages that have little to no noise and circumvent the matching problems of transformers.

Mike
05-07-2009, 09:41
But some people prefer, and enjoy, the sound of step-up transformers with valve phono stages, Richard... :smoking:

The Grand Wazoo
05-07-2009, 09:46
Marco,
Maybe this.............


However, the fact is the other items mentioned are all essential in order to optimise the DL-103SA (or any 103), particularly the A23 SUT, otherwise forget about it

........is one reason why 103's are so easy to dismiss. If such a vociferous advocate as yourself points out that this is the only way to see the potential of a cartridge, it might well put people off.

WikiBoy
05-07-2009, 09:49
But some people prefer, and enjoy, the sound of step-up transformers with valve phono stages, Richard... :smoking:


Why post that - is it justification?

Where have I said people shouldn't buy what they enjoy to listen to. BUT how many of you have an open mind enough to try what others say instead of just being embedded in ego!

My post is aimed at this comment "are all essential in order to optimise the DL-103SA (or any 103), particularly the A23 SUT, otherwise forget about it". Where does it say that he *just* enjoys it - it says "essential - otherwise forget it".

Mike
05-07-2009, 10:00
is it justification?

Yes... kind of!

If Marco thinks the best way to enjoy said cartridge then, in his opinion, the stated ancillaries are essential to hear it at it's best. What more 'justification' is needed?

Personally it's not the way I'd go, but there are plenty who would....

WikiBoy
05-07-2009, 10:05
Yes... kind of!

If Marco thinks the best way to enjoy said cartridge then, in his opinion, the stated ancillaries are essential to hear it at it's best. What more 'justification' is needed?

Personally it's not the way I'd go, but there are plenty who would....

Is this moderation? as this post has no relativity to what I wrote. If you don't want to understand me then read The Grand Wazzoo's post.

Mike
05-07-2009, 10:13
Is this moderation?

Don't be ridiculous.

Just an opinion about... oh, forget it!

Marco
05-07-2009, 10:29
Richard,

You're entitled to your opinion, and I'm entitled to mine. I know what sounds best to my ears from my experience so far, and that's all that matters to me. Obviously quite a few agree with the SUT method I recommend, as the fact is there are enough people here and elsewhere who've used their own ears to judge, and as a result are enjoying their 103s through SUTs, in some cases more so than through active MC stages :)

I'm not saying that ALL MC cartridges need an SUT to perform optimally, but if you do your research, quite clearly that's what Denon recommend, otherwise why would they design dedicated SUTs for the purpose? They could save themselves a lot of trouble and expense by not bothering. Are you saying that you know better than the manufacturer?

Anyway, I know you'll come back and pooh-pooh this as you always do, so let's put our respective methods to the test... I'll come to your forthcoming T/T bake-off, bring my Techy fitted with a 103SA, along with the A23 SUT, and we'll try the 103SA (or any other 103) in your system with and without the SUT, and see which sounds best. It'll also give me the opportunity to finally hear some NVA amps.

If you reckon that your 'load rejecting' phono stage makes it a level playing field, with SUTs being completely unnecessary or even a disadvantage, we'll soon find out, won't we? If that's the case, I'll then come on here, hold my hands up, and admit I was wrong. Or at least wrong as far as when using your amp and phono stage is concerned - it may well be different with my Croft.

Anyway, it doesn't bother me one iota how 'wrong' I am or not, as I'm open-minded and enjoy learning experiences. If it turns out the other way, however, and the SUT sounds better, then I'll expect you to be man enough and do the same!

So what do you say, are you a man or a mouse? Let's put this argument to bed once and for all!! :cool:

Marco.

Marco
05-07-2009, 10:30
Chris,

The problem with the 103 is that its design principles hark from the late 50s/early 60s where system-building methodology was very different, and also the partnering equipment and ancillaries. Therefore different rules apply.

If you want to hear the 103 at its best, as was originally intended by the manufacturer, then you have to adopt the methodologies of its era. As I've said before, you can't fit a square peg into a round hole.

The DL-103 is a device for enthusiasts - people who are willing and able to go the extra mile to optimise it. It is not for the faint-hearted who just want a 'plug & play' quick fix.

If that puts people off then fair enough; I can't control their thoughts, but you either do the job right or not - it's really as simple as that. :smoking:

Marco.

Dave Cawley
05-07-2009, 10:44
But you can fit a round peg into a square hole? :kiss:

For those with solid state amplifiers does the A23 outperform the FET A.N.T. Kora I wonder?

http://www.ant-audio.co.uk/images/products/Kora3T/front_small.jpg

Regards

:bag:

Dave

The Grand Wazoo
05-07-2009, 10:58
Chris,

The problem with the 103 is that its design principles hark from the late 50s/early 60s where system-building methodology was very different, and also the partnering equipment and ancillaries. Therefore different rules apply.

If you want to hear the 103 at its best, as was originally intended by the manufacturer, then you have to adopt the methodologies of its era. As I've said before, you can't fit a square peg into a round hole.

The DL-103 is a device for enthusiasts - people who are willing and able to go the extra mile to optimise it. It is not for the faint-hearted who just want a 'plug & play' quick fix.

If that puts people off then fair enough; I can't control their thoughts, but you either do the job right or not - it's really as simple as that. :smoking:

Marco.

I knew you'd say that, & that's exactly why it would be so hard to make a valid review so soon after the last one!

Marco
05-07-2009, 10:59
For those with solid state amplifiers does the A23 outperform the FET A.N.T. Kora I wonder?


Why don't we find out sometime then, Dave? Much would depend on the phono stage the A23 was partnered with, but I'd be very interested to hear the results :)

You see, we can all waffle on forums all day, spouting our biases, but the proof of the pudding is always in the listening. How many are willing to put their money where their mouth is? Incidentally, I'm not referring here to you.

I suspect that some of the more vociferous amongst us are more confident of their opinions than others, and thus aren't shy of exposing them to the harshest of scrutiny ;)

Marco.

Marco
05-07-2009, 11:03
I knew you'd say that, & that's exactly why it would be so hard to make a valid review so soon after the last one!

Sorry, Chris, I don't get what you mean. We're talking about a review of the 103SA, not the Techy. The two are separate and not mutually exclusive.

Marco.

Dave Cawley
05-07-2009, 11:23
Hi Marco

What I meant was, for solid state guys, only the A.N.T. Kora set to load the 103 properly. No transformer, no valves, for those that would prefer it that way? How would it compare? :kiss: Remember FET's are most excellent in the tuneful distortion stakes.................

If it worked it would widen the options for potential users?

Regards

:bag:

Dave

David Price
05-07-2009, 11:24
Richard, I thought we were supposed to be talking about classic cartridges, yet suddenly the floodgates open! You write that,

"Why do people still bother to read magazines, what purpose do they serve any more, so who gives a sod what they think! Now the world is on-line there is far more information on *any* product, just search - users - abusers - sellers - fanbois - trolls and maybe even some factual information. Forums, blogs, on-line mags, and this is just the beginning - the industry as a whole will end up on-line."

Two points here. I don't know about "users - abusers - sellers - fanbois - trolls" (what is all this jargon?), but everyday people don't live to polemicise on forums, they want to buy stuff to listen to music with - and they want the best possible sound and/or the gear that suits their pocket/room/tastes best. What with modern life being so hectic, they don't have time to endlessly search forums, blogs, the web, etc. for the received wisdom of people such as yourself - however neutral and impartial it may be. They want clearly presented reviews, backed up with technical measurements to demonstrate, at least in part, why they sound as they do. Obviously, you don't - but your situation is obviously different to most as you seem more interested in the politics of hi-fi journalism than hi-fi? (Well, certainly your decision to go off-topic on this thread suggests this). So don't confuse your own imperatives with those of the general buying public...

The second point is, the online/offline thing is a distinction that will become less and less important - you're right, most things are migrating online, but one thing you can't do online is compare two cartridges on your MacBook Pro. By and large, that requires dealers. Now, they may be very different to the established chains you see in the high street in five years, but they will still be there, and far more attuned to buyer's needs ('cos they'll have to be), and they'll be online (as a point of contact) and offline when demming kit. You seem to be trying to establish a false opposition here; dealers (and mags) will simply do some things online, others off. "The industry as a whole" will pick and choose which medium suits it far more astutely than it does now, and act accordingly, and that I think will be a combination of the two in ways that we haven't yet soon.

Then you write...

"It is no longer a main stream industry that can be supported by advertising, those days are gone and with it the people who wanted (and still want to) control the industry and control your decisions. Enthusiasts building things for enthusiasts, enthusiast writing about and reviewing things for enthusiasts, enthusiasts selling second hand things to enthusiasts, enthusiasts modding things for enthusiast, and where is the retailer and the magazine and the professional reviewer in this, well no where! dead as the Dinosaur."

Once again, your mistake is to project your particular way of working to the industry/hi-fi scene as a whole. Nestle can't build their business around the fact that their founder likes Gold Blend and chocolate Hobnobs for breakfast; they have to recognise that they're in a big world with many different consumer imperatives. Of course it's great that enthusiasts have so much easier access to information than before, but still most magazine buyers don't have the time or the inclination to buy and sell everything online (often, if our mag's letters are anything to go by, buying stuff 'discount' online, finding it sounds awful in their system then selling it the next week on ebay and taking a 40% hit), it's simply not rational behaviour for the general public. Nor does everyone have time to trawl the forums for individual experience, or to wade through all the zealotry and plain rudeness that some posters display (the print mags wouldn't last a day with this behaviour). Instead, they turn to people who give them a shortcut to this information, and they always will. Of course, if those magazines who offer this service don't do it well, they deserve to fail and ultimately do. All of this is irrespective of whether it's online or in print, as all those defunct 1970s hi-fi mags show...

So I think the future will be a little more nuanced, and a little more diverse than you suggest. And practicising the "art of sound" is surely to intelligently combine new and old media, forums and magazines, productively and in a way that gets us all closer to the truth. In this brave new world, the zealots and idealogues - online and off - will soon be exposed.

An interesting example of this constructive relationship between the two is The Telegraph newspaper's outing of MPs expenses - this was a serious piece of journalism that required 40 people working for 6 weeks (and a couple of million quid to acquire that CD-ROM) to expose what a rotten lot we currently have in Westminster. No forum or blog could have done that. And yet I don't think the Telegraph would have had the balls to do it if Damien McBride hadn't been forced to quit as Gordon Brown's arch spin doctor, by - guess who - the Guido Fawkes blog (www.order-order.com), which outed him as the purveyor of filthy lies attempting to smear the Tories. The result is that both the Telegraph's readership (online and print) has gone up dramatically, and so has Guido Fawkes.

So this comes down to the message, not the medium. The media can exist harmoniously on different platforms - it's what they actually say that counts. And before you get too gaseous about your beloved online scene (which I also like too - I was an 'Analogue Addicts' member as far back as 1998!), just remember it too has its darkside; let's not forget that certain online forums seem to think Rega P2s are better than Technics SL1200s - and it takes magazines to nail these myths, providing empirical evidence for why the latter sounds so great. So overall, I agree with you that things are changing quite dramatically, but I think your prediction smacks of wishful thinking on your part, coming from a position just as partisan as some (or all) of the magazines you decry.

David http://theartofsound.net/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif

WikiBoy
05-07-2009, 11:41
Richard,

You're entitled to your opinion, and I'm entitled to mine. I know what sounds best to my ears from my experience so far, and that's all that matters to me. Obviously quite a few agree with the SUT method I recommend, as the fact is there are enough people here and elsewhere who've used their own ears to judge, and as a result are enjoying their 103s through SUTs, in some cases more so than through active MC stages :)

I'm not saying that ALL MC cartridges need an SUT to perform optimally, but if you do your research, quite clearly that's what Denon recommend, otherwise why would they design dedicated SUTs for the purpose? They could save themselves a lot of trouble and expense by not bothering. Are you saying that you know better than the manufacturer?

Anyway, I know you'll come back and pooh-pooh this as you always do, so let's put our respective methods to the test... I'll come to your forthcoming T/T bake-off, bring my Techy fitted with a 103SA, along with the A23 SUT, and we'll try the 103SA (or any other 103) in your system with and without the SUT, and see which sounds best. It'll also give me the opportunity to finally hear some NVA amps.

If you reckon that your 'load rejecting' phono stage makes it a level playing field, with SUTs being completely unnecessary or even a disadvantage, we'll soon find out, won't we? If that's the case, I'll then come on here, hold my hands up, and admit I was wrong. Or at least wrong as far as when using your amp and phono stage is concerned - it may well be different with my Croft.

Anyway, it doesn't bother me one iota how 'wrong' I am or not, as I'm open-minded and enjoy learning experiences. If it turns out the other way, however, and the SUT sounds better, then I'll expect you to be man enough and do the same!

So what do you say, are you a man or a mouse? Let's put this argument to bed once and for all!! :cool:

Marco.


Still nonsense. I have no problem at all with anyone making a choice with their ears, but it is the pedantic statements that if you haven't heard it or experienced it then it doesn't exist or is rubbish, or more to the point *you* always know best! Until that is you do a about face and forget all the pedantic statements you made in the past. A perfect case to point is the Tannoy speakers you are now converted to.

You stated *the only way* to listen to a DL103 is with a transformer, so how come I listen to one with an active phono stage, how come it will be used at next weekends turntable bake-off (mostly with an SPU), how come many people have heard it and admired it.

I have no problem with you prefering anything, but why do your comments have to be so pedantic and ego based.

The manufacturers comments were written a long time ago when there were no active stages quiet enough, things have changed. You have not heard the phono stage I use, where as I have have heard many transformers.

There is no room in my bake-off - it is full with a full subs bench as well, anyway why would you think I would welcome you into my house after your past behaviour and threats to people who dissagree with you at other forums? If you wish to hear NVA you can do the same as everyone else, buy it (with free shipping) and try it and if unhappy return it for full refund.

You still deliberately missinterpret my post and point. I am happy that you are happy with what you have. I am unhappy with pedantic statements that - *because you prefer it them everyone else hasn't a bloody clue 'cos the great Marco has spoken*. You don't have an open mind otherwise you would not have made that statement in the post that initiated this.

Marco
05-07-2009, 11:41
So I think the future will be a little more nuanced, and a little more diverse than you suggest. And practicising the "art of sound" is surely to intelligently combine new and old media, forums and magazines, productively and in a way that gets us all closer to the truth. In this brave new world, the zealots and idealogues - online and off - will soon be exposed.


Hey, David, you obviously have read and understood our ethos. Spot on! :cool:


...let's not forget that certain online forums seem to think Rega P2s are better than Technics SL1200s - and it takes magazines to nail these myths, providing empirical evidence for why the latter sounds so great.


To be fair, I think that this particular view belonged only to some anti-Technics, LP-12/belt-drive/flat-earth 'fanboys'/'fanbois', rather than it being the view of the forum itself. In fact, knowing the sensibilities of the owner of said forum, I can categorically state that this is the case. Let's not tar everyone with the same brush ;)

However, your general point is one I agree with wholeheartedly.

Before the subject gets lost in the undoubted ensuing diatribe from Richard regarding magazines and dealers, and how he sees their respective roles in the industry, can I ask what your thoughts are to what's been suggested regarding reviewing a 103SA? :)

Cheers!

Marco.

WikiBoy
05-07-2009, 11:55
Richard, I thought we were supposed to be talking about classic cartridges, yet suddenly the floodgates open! You write that,

"Why do people still bother to read magazines, what purpose do they serve any more, so who gives a sod what they think! Now the world is on-line there is far more information on *any* product, just search - users - abusers - sellers - fanbois - trolls and maybe even some factual information. Forums, blogs, on-line mags, and this is just the beginning - the industry as a whole will end up on-line."

Two points here. I don't know about "users - abusers - sellers - fanbois - trolls" (what is all this jargon?), but everyday people don't live to polemicise on forums, they want to buy stuff to listen to music with - and they want the best possible sound and/or the gear that suits their pocket/room/tastes best. What with modern life being so hectic, they don't have time to endlessly search forums, blogs, the web, etc. for the received wisdom of people such as yourself - however neutral and impartial it may be. They want clearly presented reviews, backed up with technical measurements to demonstrate, at least in part, why they sound as they do. Obviously, you don't - but your situation is obviously different to most as you seem more interested in the politics of hi-fi journalism than hi-fi? (Well, certainly your decision to go off-topic on this thread suggests this). So don't confuse your own imperatives with those of the general buying public...

The second point is, the online/offline thing is a distinction that will become less and less important - you're right, most things are migrating online, but one thing you can't do online is compare two cartridges on your MacBook Pro. By and large, that requires dealers. Now, they may be very different to the established chains you see in the high street in five years, but they will still be there, and far more attuned to buyer's needs ('cos they'll have to be), and they'll be online (as a point of contact) and offline when demming kit. You seem to be trying to establish a false opposition here; dealers (and mags) will simply do some things online, others off. "The industry as a whole" will pick and choose which medium suits it far more astutely than it does now, and act accordingly, and that I think will be a combination of the two in ways that we haven't yet soon.

Then you write...

"It is no longer a main stream industry that can be supported by advertising, those days are gone and with it the people who wanted (and still want to) control the industry and control your decisions. Enthusiasts building things for enthusiasts, enthusiast writing about and reviewing things for enthusiasts, enthusiasts selling second hand things to enthusiasts, enthusiasts modding things for enthusiast, and where is the retailer and the magazine and the professional reviewer in this, well no where! dead as the Dinosaur."

Once again, your mistake is to project your particular way of working to the industry/hi-fi scene as a whole. Nestle can't build their business around the fact that their founder likes Gold Blend and chocolate Hobnobs for breakfast; they have to recognise that they're in a big world with many different consumer imperatives. Of course it's great that enthusiasts have so much easier access to information than before, but still most magazine buyers don't have the time or the inclination to buy and sell everything online (often, if our mag's letters are anything to go by, buying stuff 'discount' online, finding it sounds awful in their system then selling it the next week on ebay and taking a 40% hit), it's simply not rational behaviour for the general public. Nor does everyone have time to trawl the forums for individual experience, or to wade through all the zealotry and plain rudeness that some posters display (the print mags wouldn't last a day with this behaviour). Instead, they turn to people who give them a shortcut to this information, and they always will. Of course, if those magazines who offer this service don't do it well, they deserve to fail and ultimately do. All of this is irrespective of whether it's online or in print, as all those defunct 1970s hi-fi mags show...

So I think the future will be a little more nuanced, and a little more diverse than you suggest. And practicising the "art of sound" is surely to intelligently combine new and old media, forums and magazines, productively and in a way that gets us all closer to the truth. In this brave new world, the zealots and idealogues - online and off - will soon be exposed.

An interesting example of this constructive relationship between the two is The Telegraph newspaper's outing of MPs expenses - this was a serious piece of journalism that required 40 people working for 6 weeks (and a couple of million quid to acquire that CD-ROM) to expose what a rotten lot we currently have in Westminster. No forum or blog could have done that. And yet I don't think the Telegraph would have had the balls to do it if Damien McBride hadn't been forced to quit as Gordon Brown's arch spin doctor, by - guess who - the Guido Fawkes blog (www.order-order.com), which outed him as the purveyor of filthy lies attempting to smear the Tories. The result is that both the Telegraph's readership (online and print) has gone up dramatically, and so has Guido Fawkes.

So this comes down to the message, not the medium. The media can exist harmoniously on different platforms - it's what they actually say that counts. And before you get too gaseous about your beloved online scene (which I also like too - I was an 'Analogue Addicts' member as far back as 1998!), just remember it too has its darkside; let's not forget that certain online forums seem to think Rega P2s are better than Technics SL1200s - and it takes magazines to nail these myths, providing empirical evidence for why the latter sounds so great. So overall, I agree with you that things are changing quite dramatically, but I think your prediction smacks of wishful thinking on your part, coming from a position just as partisan as some (or all) of the magazines you decry.

David http://theartofsound.net/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif

An extrordinary piece of self justification, my post must have worried you! Many factual errors, but I will point out a big one - BY LAW - anything bought on line can be returned for full refund, so anyone selling it a week later for 40% loss on ebay is just plain stupid.

Oh and by the the way, forums are outing magazine behaviour as well as with the old editor at Hi-Fi Plus (I think) Roy Gregory and his Nordost connection.

Marco
05-07-2009, 11:58
Richard,


I have no problem at all with anyone making a choice with their ears, but it is the pedantic statements that if you haven't heard it or experienced it then it doesn't exist or is rubbish, or more to the point *you* always know best!


Bollocks. Where have I ever said that "I know best"? Show me some direct quotes please of me using that particular terminology.


Until that is you do a about face and forget all the pedantic statements you made in the past. A perfect case to point is the Tannoy speakers you are now converted to.


Bollocks again. Show me an example of this supposed "about face". Where have I ever said that I didn't rate Tannoys before I bought them and therefore had to back track? Direct quotes please, otherwise it's yet again a figment of your overactive imagination.


You stated *the only way* to listen to a DL103 is with a transformer, so how come I listen to one with an active phono stage, how come it will be used at next weekends turntable bake-off (mostly with an SPU), how come many people have heard it and admired it.


It's "the only way" IN MY OPINION (let that bit sink in!) if you want to hear it at its best. Am I not allowed to have an opinion, Richard?


I have no problem with you prefering anything, but why do your comments have to be so pedantic and ego based.


That's merely your opinion of the situation; how you interpret it, and you're entitled to it, but I'm afraid it's far from being fact. You've got a bloody cheek though calling anyone pedantic and egotisitc!!!!!!! Oh FFS, the irony of it all :lol: :lol: :lol:


The manufacturers comments were written a long time ago when there were no active stages quiet enough, things have changed. You have not heard the phono stage I use, where as I have have heard many transformers.


Some things are just 'right' from the beginning, Richard. Anyway, I'm up for doing the comparison but it appears you're chickening out :eyebrows:


You still deliberately missinterpret my post and point. I am happy that you are happy with what you have. I am unhappy with pedantic statements that - *because you prefer it them everyone else hasn't a bloody clue 'cos the great Marco has spoken*. You don't have an open mind otherwise you would not have made that statement in the post that initiated this.

You're a very mixed-up cookie, Richard. Again that's bullshit.

Have you ever thought for a second that it could just possibly perhaps (stay with me here), in actual reality, be YOU who is misinterpreting my posts and points, and doing the exact same thing elsewhere (on the likes of pfm) with examples from other people?

Otherwise, how do you explain the fact that it's only YOU who is constantly embroiled in disputes on various forums and no-one else?

THINK ABOUT THAT ONE VERY CAREFULLY...

Marco.

Dave Cawley
05-07-2009, 12:10
And there was I thinking a FET versus SUT thing would prick everyone's ears up......................

:uhho:

Dave

WikiBoy
05-07-2009, 12:14
Hi Chris,

I take your point, so in that respect David could use another turntable if he wanted.

However, the fact is the other items mentioned are all essential in order to optimise the DL-103SA (or any 103), particularly the A23 SUT, otherwise forget about it - it's as simple as that. My view is that if you're going to do a job, you do it right.

It all boils down to how thorough David wants to be! The more thorough he is, the more accurate and meaingful his review will be :)

Marco.

I quote your post again, and highlight the relative points. Nuf sed!

Marco
05-07-2009, 12:16
It's ok, Dave. Richard's got some serious demons he needs to exorcise, so he uses forums such as this for the purpose ;)

We enjoy the entertainment (sometimes)! :lol:

Marco.

Marco
05-07-2009, 12:18
I quote your post again, and highlight the relative points. Nuf sed!

Yes, but anything I write on here is only ever my opinion - I don't have to spell it out in black & white. It doesn't matter the language used. How could it be anything else? Have I submitted empirical evidence to affirm my opinion? No.

Everyone's posts on any forum, unless specifically stated otherwise, should always be read as "IMHO".

This is basic common sense, Richard!

Marco.

WikiBoy
05-07-2009, 12:26
And there was I thinking a FET versus SUT thing would prick everyone's ears up......................

:uhho:

Dave

It pricked my ear (possibly a painfull experience).

I have used FETs and they do some things very well. There are also a couple of musical very low noise op-amps around, but sadly not the ones recomended on most DIY forums I have seen. There is also loads of crap.

My point is just to point out there are other ways to amplify and match a DL103 apart from the one *dictated* by Marco. I have DL103 and I and many others, including forum member Gromit, who use the same phono stage with the DL103.

BTW it is very difficult to mod to improve on the PL-71 which is why it is such a star. In many ways it looks ordinary, but it is a synergy at a level that is very rare. I have built external supply for it and it doesn't really justify it, even a larger VA transformer on the existing circuit is only very marginal in benefit, and not cost effective. The full circuit diagram is on line.

Steve Toy
05-07-2009, 12:28
Marco, your opinion is empirical insofar as it is based on your own personal experience. The purpose of AOS is to share such experience.

WikiBoy
05-07-2009, 12:32
Marco, your opinion is empirical insofar as it is based on your own resonal experience. The purpose of AOS is to share such experience.

Is the purpose to *tell* people that is the only way to do it or they are wasting their time?

Marco
05-07-2009, 12:39
Richard,


My point is just to point out there are other ways to amplify and match a DL103 apart from the one *dictated* by Marco.


And your ways are perfectly valid and have equal merit to mine. It's all about context. Let people listen, if they wish, to what is said by the likes of you and me on any given subject, and then let them find their own way. I have no problem with that. Clearly, that's what is happening anyway.

The problem, Richard, is that you interpret my (admittedly) very robust style of posting/expressing my opinion as "dictating", and of course you're entitled to do so, but don't make the mistake of thinking that everyone else sees it that way. Not everyone views the world from your jaundiced perspective.

You expect people to like your (equally) robust style of posting/expressing yourself or lump it - well it's exactly the same with me! I am who I am, you are who you are. This is something you need to take on board if your intention is to be part of this community in the long term and to harmoniously co-exist with others :)

Marco.

Marco
05-07-2009, 12:52
Hi Marco

What I meant was, for solid state guys, only the A.N.T. Kora set to load the 103 properly. No transformer, no valves, for those that would prefer it that way? How would it compare? :kiss: Remember FET's are most excellent in the tuneful distortion stakes.................

If it worked it would widen the options for potential users?


Yep, I'm all for that Dave. Sounds like a viable option and one we can test if you like next time I'm down :cool:

Marco.

WikiBoy
05-07-2009, 14:14
Richard,



And your ways are perfectly valid and have equal merit to mine. It's all about context. Let people listen, if they wish, to what is said by the likes of you and me on any given subject, and then let them find their own way. I have no problem with that. Clearly, that's what is happening anyway.

The problem, Richard, is that you interpret my (admittedly) very robust style of posting/expressing my opinion as "dictating", and of course you're entitled to do so, but don't make the mistake of thinking that everyone else sees it that way. Not everyone views the world from your jaundiced perspective.

You expect people to like your (equally) robust style of posting/expressing yourself or lump it - well it's exactly the same with me! I am who I am, you are who you are. This is something you need to take on board if your intention is to be part of this community in the long term and to harmoniously co-exist with others :)

Marco.

Well you are obviously not a complete idiot, which at one time I was having my doubts on. For example it was not until your waffling that I tried a M3D, it is not an SPU but it really is fun, a bit heavy handed but on some music that is perfect. My one though has developed a hiss on both channels, weird!

I think you should note that I have never said, and would not say, that my way of doing things is the only way, that is the difference in our styles. The only thing I say is choose with your ears and this is what I have chosen. So we are not the same, I would never dictate to people the way you do, hectoring them from your balcony. Though you do seem a little milder now compared with the start of the forum, perhaps your mind is opening more.

Steve Toy
05-07-2009, 14:51
Is the purpose to *tell* people that is the only way to do it or they are wasting their time?


No it isn't, Richard.

However, whilst most of us do accept that there are a number of ways to skin a cat, Marco has through due process come up with a combination that works well.

AOS is about this very due process. Forget the ideology, the brand loyalties, the factions and the agendas. As the maths teacher keeps saying,
"I want to see your working towards your final answer not just the right answer. There are five marks for each algebra question and only one for the answer."

A lot of Linnies/Naimies etc (or anyone who is a marketing sucker with a sheep-like approach to hi-fi) will score only 1/5 at best.

Marco has given us his working and that gives him at least 4/5.

This is what subjectivism is about - using your ears, hearing alternatives and and exercising sound judgement to get the most informative, involving and enjoyable reproduction of your recorded music collection for your money.

All we do is lead by example. We do not expect others simply to select blindly the same 'right' answer without undergoing the same thorough process.

The process is what counts more than the final result.

Marco
05-07-2009, 14:58
Well you are obviously not a complete idiot, which at one time I was having my doubts on.


You need to look in the mirror and examine your own behaviour and what people might think of you. I can assure you that for the vast majority it won't be complimentary.

You reacted angrily because someone said that you needed medical help, and I removed those comments because they were unacceptable. Kindly show others and me the same respect. You need to learn how to speak to people properly with due grace and courtesy.

So, Richard, let me spell it out for you once and once only...

If you EVER again refer to me or anyone else on this forum as an idiot, you will be gone - just like that. And it will be permanent this time.

Do I make myself absolutely clear???

Marco.

Steve Toy
05-07-2009, 15:07
You two are closer than you think, but it is not acceptable to refer to anyone as an idiot however obliquely.

WikiBoy
05-07-2009, 15:29
Back to your other post, yes I understand the ethos behind this but experience can either open your mind or close it. The latter is ego based. I have had 46 years of playing with this from getting my first soldering iron and bread board kit. To working in the industry from 1969 in retail, for a manufacturer / distributor, to my own companies, both in the pro and domestic markets. I have designed amps, cd players, dacs, turntables, speakers, stands, cables. I have used just about all the alternatives that are possible including MC cartridge matching transformers, I know how they work, I know how they need to be designed, I know their limitations. So to suddenly be told that the *only* acceptable way of using a cartridge that *I* own is contra to my experience, having used and designed both by someone who hasn't even used what I am using is galling to say the least.

EDIT - Something suddenly went missing - mice?

Marco
05-07-2009, 16:00
Back to your other post, yes I understand the ethos behind this but experience can either open your mind or close it. The latter is ego based.


And you don't think that you've got any ego, Richard? Come on, get real!! The problem is that you only see things through your own eyes and no-one else's. If you start looking at the bigger picture then you might end up with a more complete version of reality.


I have had 46 years of playing with this from getting my first soldering iron and bread board kit. To working in the industry from 1969 in retail, for a manufacturer / distributor, to my own companies, both in the pro and domestic markets. I have designed amps, cd players, dacs, turntables, speakers, stands, cables. I have used just about all the alternatives that are possible including MC cartridge matching transformers, I know how they work, I know how they need to be designed, I know their limitations. So to suddenly be told that the *only* acceptable way of using a cartridge that *I* own is contra to my experience, having used and designed both by someone who hasn't even used what I am using is galling to say the least.


But how many times do I have to say it before it penetrates through the concrete?

No-one is dismissing your experience or TELLING you anything - that's just how you interpret it. This is why you get into so much trouble on forums because as I've said already, you've got tunnel vision and only see things through the world of Richard Dunn.

The fact is my equally valid experience is contrary to yours, so I'm just as entitled to express it on any aspect of hi-fi however vociferously or forcefully I choose. Now.............

Please listen up once and for all:

WHATEVER I SAY IS ONLY MY OPINION, BASED ON MY EXPERIENCE. It is not fact.

The sooner you grasp that simple truth, Richard, the sooner we can engage in meaningful discussion about hi-fi without arguing like petulant children.

Marco.

WikiBoy
05-07-2009, 16:17
And you don't think that you've got any ego, Richard? Come on, get real!! The problem is that you only see things through your own eyes and no-one else's. If you start looking at the bigger picture then you might end up with a more complete version of reality.



But how many times do I have to say it before it penetrates through the concrete?

No-one is dismissing your experience or TELLING you anything - that's just how you interpret it. This is why you get into so much trouble on forums because as I've said already, you've got tunnel vision and only see things through the world of Richard Dunn.

The fact is my equally valid experience is contrary to yours, so I'm just as entitled to express it on any aspect of hi-fi however vociferously or forcefully I choose. Now.............

Please listen up once and for all:

WHATEVER I SAY IS ONLY MY OPINION, BASED ON MY EXPERIENCE. It is not fact.

The sooner you grasp that simple truth, Richard, the sooner we can engage in meaningful discussion about hi-fi without arguing like petulant children.

Marco.

Get real Marco. This started because of one thing and I can repeat the post again if you want. There was no mention of alternative, there was a statement that if you did it any other way you were wasting your time and that your experience was the only valid one, if that is not ego based I don't know what is. That is what I objected to, that is the cause of you now trying to defend it with ad hominem insults against me for some reason.

Where as I have never once said your method is invalid or a waste of time, that is the difference!

Marco
05-07-2009, 16:21
OMG, someone open the door to the gas oven and put me out of my misery!! The guy just doesn't get it :lolsign:

Show me one DIRECT QUOTE where I have said in exactly those words that your method is invalid or a waste of time.

Go on, let's see if you can.

Marco.

P.S I haven't insulted you. I've not refrerred to anyone as an "idiot", unlike you.

WikiBoy
05-07-2009, 16:40
OMG, someone open the door to the gas oven and put me out of my misery!! The guy just doesn't get it :lolsign:

Show me one DIRECT QUOTE where I have said in exactly those words that your method is invalid or a waste of time.

Go on, let's see if you can.

Marco.

P.S I haven't insulted you. I've not refrerred to anyone as an "idiot", unlike you.

You have already asked me this and I answered, see post #61. You stated quite clearly then if anyone (which I presume includes me) did different to you they should "otherwise forget about it - it's as simple as that".


You have made constant referal to me personally - that is ad hominem, mostly refering to other forums. I just happened to say I used to think you were completely misguided until I actually tried one of your recomendations in the M3D and loved the ballsy little thing, so thanks for that - but don't let it go to your head, one swallow doesn't make a summer.

EDIT - someone is editing my posts without a referal - I did not say misguided at all I refered to you comment about me calling you an idiot, so this is what I refered to.

Marco
05-07-2009, 16:48
Sorry, Richard, read my request again. I don't see the words "Richard Dunn's method is invalid or a waste of time" anywhere in post #61.

So try again. I’m looking for direct quotes. I presume that you know what a direct quote is? All that’s there is my opinion.

You don't seem to understand that in the absence of indisputable facts all anyone is able to do on any forum, no matter what language is used, is offer an opinion. You're an intelligent man, so I can't understand how you can't grasp this.


You have made constant referal to me personally - that is ad hominem, mostly refering to other forums.


Because your behaviour/attitude on this thread makes it relevant. I am simply stating facts. Facts are not "ad hominem".


I just happened to say I used to think you were completely misguided until I actually tried one of your recomendations in the M3D and loved the ballsy little thing, so thanks for that - but don't let it go to your head, one swallow doesn't make a summer.


You are welcome. Some things I get right, some I get wrong - none of us are perfect, and that includes you ;)

Marco.

WikiBoy
05-07-2009, 16:58
Sorry, Richard, read my request again. I don't see the words "Richard's method is invalid or a waste of time" anywhere in post #61.

So try again. I’m looking for direct quotes. I presume you know what a direct quote is? All that’s there is my opinion.



Because your behaviour/attitude on this thread makes it relevant. I am simply stating facts. Facts are not "ad hominem".



You are welcome. Some things I get right, some I get wrong - none of us are perfect, and that includes you ;)

Marco.

Your agenda and desires again - me me me. I have no quotes apart from the one I have given, that is the post I am refering to, have been continually refering to through this thread, no other, no other quotes.

To any logical take on the matter that should be enough.

I object to being told (your post was for the forum members I presume, which it seems I am temporarily one of) that there was *no other* way to do it, and all other ways were a waste of time - poetic licence, I paraphrase.

That is the matter in a nutshell, and I must have said it at least five times now, so if you don't mind I wont say it again as it is wearing out my keyboard.

Marco
05-07-2009, 17:06
I object to being told (your post was for the forum members I presume, which it seems I am temporarily one of) that there was *no other* way to do it, and all other ways were a waste of time - poetic licence, I paraphrase.


You're entitled to object to what you like, but proving something that I actually haven't done is a different ball game altogether.


I have no quotes apart from the one I have given, that is the post I am refering to, have been continually refering to through this thread, no other, no other quotes.


Then in the absence of direct quotes showing me using specific language which categorically proves I think that your methods are "invalid or a waste of time", you have no conclusive evidence to support your assertion. Therefore, it is simply your opinion of what I have written: your interpretation of fact, rather than actual fact itself. Subject closed.

Thank God! Can we now talk about hi-fi? :)

Marco.

DSJR
05-07-2009, 17:41
You know Marco, your posting language can come on a bit strong. I can deal with it - just about - :), as I spent over thirty years trying to "speak the other guys language" in the hope of meeting somewhere around half way and getting a sale, thereby justifying my existance, but I can also understand this manner putting some people's backs up. I've done it too, but it was Neil primarily that I upset, hopefully momentarily, from recounting some of the situations I've found myself in - many wonderful, but one or two still hurt many years on.....

I wish I had some disposeable income to try some of the things mentioned on here. Richard's load-resistant phono stage really appeals as a "fit-and-forget" style of product. The ANT units with their slightly bright RIAA eq look great in their way as well, as so many cartridges have a treble droop (Naim phono stages are slightly bright in measurable sound too as I recall from reviews).

I just wish that we could all use more smilies to justify or enhance what we post ;) The emotions behind the posts may just be better understood.

In a boring invigilation session recently (exam "Clash Supervision" of some A level students) I speed-read an excellent book on introducing Psychology. I found it fascinating...

Marco
05-07-2009, 17:50
Returning to sanity now, Richard, on the subject of hi-fi, I'd like to refer to something you said earlier about SUTs:


The manufacturers comments were written a long time ago when there were no active stages quiet enough, things have changed.


No doubt, and I'm sure that a 103 through your phono stage produces very acceptable results.

However, if Denon didn't consider that SUTs were still (even today) a viable way of amplifying the output of their MC cartridges, then why would they go to the trouble and expense of including these excellent devices (both of which I've heard) in their current product portfolio:

http://www.audiocubes2.com/brand/Denon/product/Denon_AU-300LC_MC_Cartridge_Boosting_Trance.html

http://www.audiocubes2.com/brand/Denon/product/Denon_AU-S1_Audiophile_MC_Step-up_Transformer.html

Are you telling me that both of these units are simply anachronisms and have no relevance in today's marketplace?


You have not heard the phono stage I use, where as I have heard many transformers.


No, and I’ve already said as much. But I would like to. May I ask which Denon SUTs have you heard and in what context?

Marco.

Steve Toy
05-07-2009, 17:52
Richard, I only edited your quote of something I wrote and subsequently deleted at the same time you posted. The rest of your message remains intact.

Marco
05-07-2009, 18:04
Hi Dave,


You know Marco, your posting language can come on a bit strong. I can deal with it - just about - :) , as I spent over thirty years trying to "speak the other guys language" in the hope of meeting somewhere around half way and getting a sale, thereby justifying my existance, but I can also understand this manner putting some people's backs up.


LOL. No doubt you're right, but none of our posting styles are perfect, are they?

I'm glad you can deal with it because I ain't changing it now for no bugger! :lol: :ner: ;)

I am who I am, and I tell it as I see it. I'm outspoken, confident and opinionated - and so what I write is often controversial. I make no apologies for that. However, one thing you'll NEVER see me do is deliberately insult someone by using invective where there is no evidence of any provocation.

I always show people respect and courtesy no matter how much I disagree with their viewpoint. This is a basic human right, and a policy that should automatically be adopted by everyone in all aspects of life, not just on forums.

If everyone did this then there would be much less arguments and bad blood, but arguably life might also be a little boring :eyebrows:

Marco.

WikiBoy
05-07-2009, 18:15
Returning to sanity now, Richard, on the subject of hi-fi, I'd like to refer to something you said earlier about SUTs:



No doubt, and I'm sure that a 103 through your phono stage produces very acceptable results.

However, if Denon didn't consider that SUTs were still (even today) a viable way of amplifying the output of their MC cartridges, then why would they go to the trouble and expense of including these excellent devices (both of which I've heard) in their current product portfolio:

http://www.audiocubes2.com/brand/Denon/product/Denon_AU-300LC_MC_Cartridge_Boosting_Trance.html

http://www.audiocubes2.com/brand/Denon/product/Denon_AU-S1_Audiophile_MC_Step-up_Transformer.html

Are you telling me that both of these units are simply anachronisms and have no relevance in today's marketplace?



No, and I’ve already said as much. But I would like to. May I ask which Denon SUTs have you heard and in what context?

Marco.


God you really talk bolloocks when you want to, especially when your back is up. You made a load of presumptions in your last post and I cannot be bothered to rise to them. Basically you take advantage of your position here to *bully* and push your point of veiw through by running rough shod over eveyone you think is in your way.

I couldn't give toss what Denon say, they try to sell their product, like everyone else apart from me. There are now a growing number of good transistor, fet or op-amp based MC phono stages on the market. There is now only two logical reasons for owning a SUT 1/ you prefer the limitation they put on the signal (I know you will now fly off the handle again but it is fact! unless you are willing to spend hundreds or even thousands on one they are a distinct and sub standard compromise). 2/ you want to use a valve phono stage for what ever reason, so you then need a SUT as valves have as much chance of amplifying an MC with acceptable noise levels as you have flying to the moon with a feather up your arse. So SUT became the excuse for the bottleheads - as I said before, marketing, turn a liability into and asset.

I have never once said SUTs are an anachronism, once more you invent for effect. I have said clearly on many occassions, if people use their ears and not others or others bullshit to buy product then they have bought the best for them. If I dissagree with their decision it is *my* choice, but I don't bully them or force my point of view on them like you do.

What makes you think the Denon transformers are any different to other transformers. I don't think you even know how a transformer functions. All the nonsense of matching will come out again, BUT ask yourself why does it become so important, because it is *really* struggling to do the job, and I have explained why many times before. Once again marketing, turning a deficiency into an asset by convincing people of the bullshit. If there is headroom then it becomes a very minor problem.

You have set yourself up as some sort of oracle who can never be wrong, but your knowledge is extremely limited and is the knowledge of a user, who can never understand how and why only what they have experienced. So unless you are omnipotent (perhaps you think you are) you cannot have heard all the possibilities in any subject or parameter, so you are talking from a very shallow lake of knowledge, which if you were an honest man to yourself or others you would admit to.

Beechwoods
05-07-2009, 19:07
How's about splitting this thread off into Critics Corner? The last post about vintage cartridges was at least 2 days ago!

Marco
05-07-2009, 19:23
Oh dear, isn't this fun? Ok, Richard, once more unto the breach. I really am a glutton for punishment! :lol:


Basically you take advantage of your position here to *bully* and push your point of veiw through by running rough shod over eveyone you think is in your way.


Bullshit - again that's just your jaundiced way of looking at things. If it suits your agenda, think what you like :)


I couldn't give toss what Denon say...


Now that's not arrogant or closed-minded in any way is it? Of course not!


...they try to sell their product, like everyone else apart from me.


Of course, but that doesn't make it bad or 'technically wrong', does it?


There are now a growing number of good transistor, fet or op-amp based MC phono stages on the market.


I completely agree, and quite a few people on this forum and elsewhere use them.


There is now only two logical reasons for owning a SUT 1/ you prefer the limitation they put on the signal (I know you will now fly off the handle again but it is fact!


I'm not disputing it, but here's another fact... Hi-fi is all about choosing your compromises. I prefer the compromises of an SUT and valve MM stage, and you prefer the compromises of an active MC stage. Neither approach is unquestionably 'superior' to the other.

The true arbiter of anything in hi-fi are the ears of the listener, and also system context. In that respect, measurements or 'scientific proof' do not matter much, so I'm afraid that given this fact, whatever method you consider for amplifying the output of an MC cartridge as being 'technically superior' is completely irrelevant. You cannot dictate to someone what compromises they should choose.


unless you are willing to spend hundreds or even thousands on one they are a distinct and sub standard compromise).


"Sub standard" maybe, in terms of your technical opinion, but not necessarily "sub standard" if the compromises someone wants to choose differ from yours.


2/ you want to use a valve phono stage for what ever reason...


Such as because it's better than any other SS stage you've heard so far, perhaps?


...so you then need a SUT as valves have as much chance of amplifying an MC with acceptable noise levels as you have flying to the moon with a feather up your arse. So SUT became the excuse for the bottleheads - as I said before, marketing, turn a liability into and asset.


More jaundiced, blinkered bullshit, I'm afraid. I use a valve MM phono stage with an SUT because it sounds absolutely fantastic, and better than any active SS MC phono I've heard so far. Why can't you accept that simple fact instead of insisting on putting rather crass (and inaccurate) labels on people?


I have never once said SUTs are an anachronism, once more you invent for effect.


The reason I asked you the question was not to "invent" anything, but to clarify the point you were making.


I have said clearly on many occassions, if people use their ears and not others or others bullshit to buy product then they have bought the best for them.


I think you're clearly lacking introspection. If you honestly believe that then why can't you extend this courtesy to those who use and enjoy equipment that is derived from a different technology to that which you use, manufacture, and deem as being 'superior', instead of rather disrespectfully labelling them with some crass terminology or description that you've invented in your head?

Oh, and I'd like an answer to that one please!!


If I dissagree with their decision it is *my* choice, but I don't bully them or force my point of view on them like you do.


Really??? Do you HONESTLY believe that?? Have you actually tried re-reading your posts on forums???? My God, you are so detached from reality it's untrue. One day you might come out of that tunnel of yours and wake up and smell the coffee, but as they say, I suspect pigs will fly first.


What makes you think the Denon transformers are any different to other transformers. I don't think you even know how a transformer functions. All the nonsense of matching will come out again, BUT ask yourself why does it become so important, because it is *really* struggling to do the job, and I have explained why many times before.


Experience tells me that Denon transformers (and the A23) optimise the sound of the DL-103 better than any other transformers I've heard so far, and way better than any active MC stage I've heard *so far* - it's as simple as that. However, I'm up for being convinced differently as a result of something better being demonstrated to me. Show me how much better an NVA MC stage is and I'll gladly acknowledge it! :cool:


You have set yourself up as some sort of oracle who can never be wrong...


What a load of utter pish (as they say in the city of my birth)! Again, that's just your blinkered view of things. However, how many people do you think would say that about you?


...but your knowledge is extremely limited and is the knowledge of a user, who can never understand how and why only what they have experienced.


What difference does that make? I use my ears to judge hi-fi equipment just like you do. I don't have to "understand" anything. If I think something sounds better then it is better, and if others try what I recommend and agree, then who cares what people like you think?


So unless you are omnipotent (perhaps you think you are) you cannot have heard all the possibilities in any subject or parameter...


What utter rot. Of course I haven't heard everything. Are you telling me then that you're the "omnipotent" one who's heard all the possibilities in any subject or parameter? That's how your rather jaundiced and blinkered opinions about valves and SUTs come across!


...so you are talking from a very shallow lake of knowledge, which if you were an honest man to yourself or others you would admit to.

Lake of knowledge? WTF are you on about? I only offer my opinions based on my available experience - nothing more. You undoubtedly have more experience than me in a number of areas (for starters you're much older than I am and have been at the sharp end of the industry), but in the specific areas where I do have lots of experience and knowledge (modified SL-1210s and 103s), it is by no means a forgone conclusion that you know more than I do on the subject.

Marco.

Marco
05-07-2009, 19:38
How's about splitting this thread off into Critics Corner? The last post about vintage cartridges was at least 2 days ago!

I'm not sure it really belongs there, Nick. This is simply extended thread drift because Richard feels like ranting and insisting on being confrontational. It'll be over when he feels that he wants to stop playing ;)

If we have to move stuff later we can do it then :)

Marco.

Ian Walker
05-07-2009, 19:40
Yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeawn

Beechwoods
05-07-2009, 19:41
:lol: ;)

WikiBoy
05-07-2009, 19:46
Faaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaart

Family guy is on soon, "don't make me huurrrt you".

Marco
05-07-2009, 19:52
Giving up then? Quite right - you were losing royally anyway! :lol: :lolsign: :ner:

;)

Enjoy 'Family Guy', whatever that is!

Marco.

Stratmangler
05-07-2009, 19:55
Oh dear, isn't this fun?

No, it is very tedious and should stop immediately.

Please !!!!!

Chris:(

Mike
05-07-2009, 19:58
Oh dear, isn't this fun?

Err... well, it was, for a while...

Marco
05-07-2009, 20:07
No worries, Chris.

As we always listen to what our members think I will not contribute anymore to the off-topic nature of this thread and will insist that Richard does the same.

From now on all posts not related to HFW and their "bias" against vintage cartridges will be deleted.

Man we're bloody considerate, eh? :lol:

Marco.

WikiBoy
05-07-2009, 20:12
No worries, Chris.

As we always listen to what our members think I will not contribute anymore to the off-topic nature of this thread and will insist that Richard does the same.

From now on all posts not related to HFW and their "bias" against vintage cartridges will be deleted.

Man we're bloody considerate, eh? :lol:

Marco.

More bullying tactics!

Marco
05-07-2009, 20:14
Err no, I'm simply fulfilling the requests of our (quieter and less boisterous) members. I'm imposing the same restrictions on myself as you.

Go and watch Family Guy and come back later! :smoking:

Marco.

anthonyTD
05-07-2009, 21:06
hi all,
well i think its time to get [vaugely] back on track now, richard, can i ask you, are your phono-stages directly coupled on the front end to the cartridge? my reason for asking, you mentioned the cartridge your using had gone noisey, could it be that there is a small amount of DC on the front end of your phono-stage, this can in some cases lead to the noise problem you relate to.
obviously transformers dont pass DC so you dont get this potential problem using MC step up transformers.
just a thought.
anthony,TD...

RobHolt
05-07-2009, 21:27
SUTs are fine.
I have several phono stages but the one I prefer by a small margin uses tubes and a pair of Sowter SUTs.
There are no significant drawbacks to using SUTs, despite what has been said and they are particularly good with very low output MCs - Audio Notes spring to mind.

Just try a variety of option with the chosen cartridge and choose whichever sounds best.

WikiBoy
05-07-2009, 21:31
hi all,
well i think its time to get [vaugely] back on track now, richard, can i ask you, are your phono-stages directly coupled on the front end to the cartridge? my reason for asking, you mentioned the cartridge your using had gone noisey, could it be that there is a small amount of DC on the front end of your phono-stage, this can in some cases lead to the noise problem you relate to.
obviously transformers dont pass DC so you dont get this potential problem using MC step up transformers.
just a thought.
anthony,TD...

I have been swopping cartridges around as I have built two Phono2s for the bake-off, one MM one MC. I was testing the MM one first with the SPU, full volume no noise unless ear to speaker. So I swapped the headshells to the M3D one and it is noisy as hell, it sounds like a valve MC stage :). Now it wasn't noisy the last time I listen to it a few days ago, so I swapped it out for an Audio Technica AT52E and that was silent, so it is a bit of a mystery at the moment. I am sure there is a simple explanation when I get time to look for it.

The stage speced out OK on test, just a couple of mv dc on the output. The input is direct coupled to the first gain stage which is just there really to provide the headroom and that is also where the gain of the unit is set, the RIAA is hung around the second stage.

Marco
05-07-2009, 21:38
SUTs are fine.
I have several phono stages but the one I prefer by a small margin uses tubes and a pair of Sowter SUTs.
There are no significant drawbacks to using SUTs, despite what has been said and they are particularly good with very low output MCs - Audio Notes spring to mind.

Just try a variety of options with the chosen cartridge and choose whichever sounds best.

More common sense from Mr Holt's vast locker of, errm, 'sensibleness'!

Apparently, they're also none too shabby with DL-103s! ;)

Marco.

anthonyTD
05-07-2009, 21:40
I have been swopping cartridges around as I have built two Phono2s for the bake-off, one MM one MC. I was testing the MM one first with the SPU, full volume no noise unless ear to speaker. So I swapped the headshells to the M3D one and it is noisy as hell, it sounds like a valve MC stage :). Now it wasn't noisy the last time I listen to it a few days ago, so I swapped it out for an Audio Technica AT52E and that was silent, so it is a bit of a mystery at the moment. I am sure there is a simple explanation when I get time to look for it.

The stage speced out OK on test, just a couple of mv dc on the output. The input is direct coupled to the first gain stage which is just there really to provide the headroom and that is also where the gain of the unit is set, the RIAA is hung around the second stage.
ok,
just a thought, try running a de-magnetiser over the noisey cartridge, it may just be that one of the elements used in its construction, [either the poles, cantilever, coils etc] have become magnetised.
stranger things have happend i guess!.
regards,anthony,TD...

WikiBoy
05-07-2009, 21:43
ok,
just a thought, try running a de-magnetiser over the noisey cartridge, it may just be that one of the elements used in its construction, [either the poles, cantilever, coils etc] have become magnetised.
stranger things have happend i guess!.
regards,anthony,TD...

I would if I had one.

anthonyTD
05-07-2009, 21:51
I would if I had one.
make one!
or just put the cartridge near a mains transformer, [when its energised of course] and slowly move it away, its crude, but it may work! obviously make sure there is no DC element in near field of the cartridge afterwards.
A...

The Grand Wazoo
05-07-2009, 21:58
Richard,
Now things have calmed down a bit and, as my earlier post seems to have inspired your exchange with Marco, I thought I'd better say a few words. I'd like to assure you that some people have tried listening with an open mind to many different options for phono amplification & have settled on transformers. If you're interested, please take a look at this thread:
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=2907

You may think that my insistance on the use of an SP8/Koetsu show a fundamental flaw in my hearing, I don't know, but my gear makes a noise I like!

Terribly sorry, as I seem to have overlooked your products, though!

As with most discussions there is an element of truth in what both of you were saying & perhaps you are both quite similar in some ways (something which usually horrifies people when they hear it suggested about themselves!)

WikiBoy
05-07-2009, 22:02
make one!
or just put the cartridge near a mains transformer, [when its energised of course] and slowly move it away, its crude, but it may work! obviously make sure there is no DC element in near field of the cartridge afterwards.
A...

Never thought of that, of course, nice one, a degausser is just a coil.

anthonyTD
05-07-2009, 22:04
Never thought of that, of course, nice one, a degausser is just a coil.
exactly!!!:)
A...

David Price
05-07-2009, 23:19
Gosh - I think this is called a ding dong! It sure beat Roddick versus Federer!

Richard - lots of things to say to you, but I think I'll stay away until you and Marco have got fed up with laying into one another!

Marco - yes, up for the DL103SA; we'll speak on the phone. I'd like to use Dave (with his permission) as some kind of guarantor of a proper set-up - the hi-fi equivalent of an umpire - so you can't accuse me of not getting it set up properly!

I can honestly say I'll listen without prejudice (as George Michael once wrote). In fact I really really want to like it, because I simply can't defend any position I might take as trenchantly as you (or Mr Dunn for that matter)! I think I'm the sort who's searching for the quiet life. It's only hi-fi, after all.

Okay boys, seconds out, round sixteen...

Marco
05-07-2009, 23:23
Haha, I'm glad you approve David. We're simply 'road-testing' a new form of visual entertainment. Normal service will be resumed soon ;)


Marco - yes, up for the DL103SA; we'll speak on the phone.


Nice one, and I'm sure that Dave C will happily come in on this one. I'll bell you tomorrow :cool:

Marco.

David Price
05-07-2009, 23:24
BTW - yes, Marco, you're right - I wasn't suggesting everyone on a certain other forum thinks the SL1200 is inferior to a Rega, and certainly not its guvnor, but it's still a surprisingly commonly held view away from this place that the SL1200 is "plastic Jap crap". It is only one of these and I think we're not disputing its country of origin here! David

Marco
05-07-2009, 23:34
You're absolutely right, David.

The difference with here is that we don't have to, or choose to, 'toe the party line'. Neither Steve Toy, nor I, or any of the management team owe any loyalties to anyone in the industry or otherwise.

In short, we have no vested interests on AOS. Therefore, everything and everyone is open to scrutiny, so we tell it as we see it honestly and with no holds barred… This is why discussions here are often more 'searching' and have more substance than sometimes you get on other forums. We're not protecting any agendas!

It's not always comfortable reading for followers of whatever or whoever is under scrutiny, but it's the only way of getting to the nitty-gritty!

'Safe' we don't do - we like to push boundaries. Things are much more interesting that way! ;)

Marco.

Marco
05-07-2009, 23:57
Incidentally, David, have you read this thread:

http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=536

I think it would be right up your street ;)

Marco.

Barry
06-07-2009, 00:30
hi all,
Well I think its time to get [vaugely] back on track now, richard, can I ask you, are your phono-stages directly coupled on the front end to the cartridge? My reason for asking, you mentioned the cartridge your using had gone noisey, could it be that there is a small amount of DC on the front end of your phono-stage, this can in some cases lead to the noise problem you relate to.
Obviously transformers dont pass DC so you don't get this potential problem using MC step up transformers.
Just a thought.
anthony,TD...

I wouldn't have thought passing DC through the coils of a pick up cartridge is good for the cartridge either.

Dave Cawley
06-07-2009, 07:20
Yes, I'll be a guarantor/trustee and will only let David have it when I believe it's perfect! (with Marco's considerable help and input)

Then I'll deliver it in person with some known records to make sure it sounds the same as it did here.

Regards

:bag:

Dave

anthonyTD
06-07-2009, 09:24
I wouldn't have thought passing DC through the coils of a pick up cartridge is good for the cartridge either.

my point exactly!
A...

Barry
06-07-2009, 09:31
my point exactly!
A...

Wasn't criticising your comments, I just thought it should be pointed out that were the situation be left to continue, damage could be done to the cartridge and to the records being played.

Regards

Marco
06-07-2009, 09:37
Yes, I'll be a guarantor/trustee and will only let David have it when I believe it's perfect! (with Marco's considerable help and input)

Then I'll deliver it in person with some known records to make sure it sounds the same as it did here.


Excellent, Dave. This should be interesting. In the final analysis, I still don't think that the 103SA will be quite David's cup of tea (even when fully optimised), as he is on record as saying that he's a bit of a 'treble man' and values a crisp, 'vivid' presentation that majors on clarity and detail.

Because of the spherical stylus profile, no DL-103 will ever be able to compete in that area with the Lyras, ATs, Ortofons, VDH's and Transfigurations of this world, but at least, if things are done right, he should hear the true potential of the 103 and what its 'SA' guise brings to the party, as I have alluded to throughout this forum :)

What's the plan then chaps? Is David using his deck and one of your 103SAs, Dave? What tonearm will be used? And does David need to borrow my A23? The rest of the system can be sorted out later :cool:

Marco.

WikiBoy
06-07-2009, 10:08
ok,
just a thought, try running a de-magnetiser over the noisey cartridge, it may just be that one of the elements used in its construction, [either the poles, cantilever, coils etc] have become magnetised.
stranger things have happend i guess!.
regards,anthony,TD...

Tried it - still hissing :scratch:

WikiBoy
06-07-2009, 10:09
Wasn't criticising your comments, I just thought it should be pointed out that were the situation be left to continue, damage could be done to the cartridge and to the records being played.

Regards

BUT it wasn't the situation!

anthonyTD
06-07-2009, 10:27
Tried it - still hissing :scratch:

hhmmm,
very odd! :confused:not sure what else to sugest, is it definately on both chanels?
if so then its obviuosly something to do with what ever each chanel in the cartridge shares/has in common.
keep us informed if you do get to the bottom of it!
anthony,TD...

David Price
06-07-2009, 10:46
Marco - would you be up for a review in my TimeStep SL1200 with SME 5? Or does it have to be in the Jelco? Remember the SME is a massy arm with battleship construction, and has optional fluid damping too, which might help?

Alternatively we could do it in the Jelco 12" and GyroDec, Dave? Just a thought, as the DL103 would probably love a 12 incher?

Dave Cawley
06-07-2009, 10:52
Hi David

I think we need to have Marco decide, I e-mailed him twice this morning. I can supply anything..........

Wed/Thur/Fri is fine for me, did you get to speak to Noel?

Regards

:bag:

Dave

Marco
06-07-2009, 11:00
Marco - would you be up for a review in my TimeStep SL1200 with SME 5? Or does it have to be in the Jelco? Remember the SME is a massy arm with battleship construction, and has optional fluid damping too, which might help?

Alternatively we could do it in the Jelco 12" and GyroDec, Dave? Just a thought, as the DL103 would probably love a 12 incher?

Sorry guys, I've been really busy, so can't contrubute much now. David, I hear what you're saying, so I'll give you a bell now to discuss :)

Dave, I'll get back to you A.S.A.P :cool:

Marco.

REM
06-07-2009, 12:56
Hi Marco, Dave and Dave.

Would you guys like to throw my Zu 103 into the mix, would be fascinating to see how the different guises of 103 compare to each other, not the sort of thing you get the chance to do too often:)

p.s. I think it has a more "modern" sort of presentation than a standard 103, you never know D.P. might even like it:lol:.

Cheers

DSJR
06-07-2009, 13:26
Can't we have proper cartridge testing too - i.e. frequency response, distortion and tracking ability too - ?

I only ask this as opinions are one thing, but there ought to be some sort of reference involved if original masters aren't available to hear how the decks and cartridges differ from them. This isn't to do the Denons down (far from it - quite the opposite I reckon, looking at various HFC reviews in which they measured rather well), but some of the Lyra's, for example, take off and super-sonic nasties can help to overload phono stages prematurely, whereas a SUT may help to damp it a bit perhaps (several subjects covered here, but there's a reason for everything and none of it is magic IMO).

The DL103 seems to like a very massy arm. What happens at the arm/cart resonance point when a Jelco is used as, say, a Rega RB series. How does the SMEV (or even an M3cope when compared to the Jelco???

Sorry to be all objective, but I think these areas should be covered as well.

P.S. Interesting about LP12 fanboi opinion. I never once heard Ivor slagging off the Technics direct-drive principle. Had the LP12 not been derived so heavily from the TD150 implentation of The AR ideas, it may well have been direct drive according to Ivor :)

Steve Toy
06-07-2009, 14:57
Once Ivor had thrown his weight behind the rubber band fruitbox there was no going back.

Re. the Technics for review I can see two options here:

1) With the SME 5 arm - the 'statement'/no-holds-barred option.

2) With the Jelco arm - higher SPPV option that should stilll trounce a fruitbox.

You decide - or even do both to give folks a real idea of the potential of the Technics deck.

Marco
06-07-2009, 15:51
Hi Dave,


Can't we have proper cartridge testing too - i.e. frequency response, distortion and tracking ability too - ?

I only ask this as opinions are one thing, but there ought to be some sort of reference involved if original masters aren't available to hear how the decks and cartridges differ from them. This isn't to do the Denons down (far from it - quite the opposite I reckon, looking at various HFC reviews in which they measured rather well), but some of the Lyra's, for example, take off and super-sonic nasties can help to overload phono stages prematurely, whereas a SUT may help to damp it a bit perhaps (several subjects covered here, but there's a reason for everything and none of it is magic IMO).

The DL103 seems to like a very massy arm. What happens at the arm/cart resonance point when a Jelco is used as, say, a Rega RB series. How does the SMEV (or even an M3cope when compared to the Jelco???

Sorry to be all objective, but I think these areas should be covered as well.


Good ideas, but I'm not sure that David had that kind of review in mind. I'll let him confirm his intentions himself.

It'll be featured in the dedicated vinyl section of the magazine, and will based on a 'statement' of how good a DL-103 (SA) can get 'a-la Marco', and simply an acknowledgement of my view of what the 1210 is about (I believe it will even be named 'after me', so to speak, by having my initials put next to it), which is cool and something I'm rather flattered about - cheers, David! :)

Hopefully it will demonstrate just how good the 103 can get when everything is working in its favour, and how thus optimised, it can compete with some genuinely high-end cartridges. David will also be introduced to a very different presentation/'flavour' to what he's used to with his own modified 1210, so I'm curious to know what he'll think of the 'Marco-boy' version!

The article should be out in the magazine in a couple of month's time, and of course AOS will also be featured as part of it. All-in-all, it should be very interesting, and something I'm looking forward to reading :cool:

Marco.

David Price
06-07-2009, 20:49
Yep - should be fun. Marco and I spoke at length; I'm going to do everything to Marco's spec, down to the headshell wires and VTA. Dave is going to be supplier, setter up and umpire (will buzz you about this later Dave), and Noel will measure. Working title is "Timestep Technics SL1200 MP", in honour of Marco's very carefully detailed spec. I'll try and do the DL103SA in a SME V too, at a later date, for universality's sake, but this feature is about getting the synergy right. Marco's put in the listening hours, so we can only defer to him on the final set-up details. I really hope I'll like it - even if I don't I have a feeling I'll understand precisely why Marco likes it! Should be fun. Give us a couple of months to get this through the machine though please guys...

Dave Cawley
06-07-2009, 22:54
And honour Marco we should!! :kiss:

Regards

:bag:

Dave

Steve Toy
06-07-2009, 23:12
This should be very good. Faith should now be placed in the reviewing process.

It all seems pretty fair to me.

David Price
06-07-2009, 23:56
Nothing can possibly go wrong then...

Steve Toy
07-07-2009, 00:48
From our side, no.

Marco
07-07-2009, 08:32
Yes, the only danger I see is the possibility that Noel might trip up and fall on top of it when shtrutting his shtuff to David's Sister Sledge albums...

:dance:

{Bump, crash!}

:oops:

:rolleyes:

Marco.

RobHolt
07-07-2009, 22:35
n shtrutting his shtuff to David's Sister Sledge albums...

:dance:

{Bump, crash!}

:oops:

:rolleyes:

Marco.

Oi! - nothing wrong with Sister Sledge!

Marco
07-07-2009, 23:45
Indeed not! I've got a 12" version of 'Lost in Music' playing on my "MP" Techy now :eyebrows: ;)

Marco.

David Price
08-07-2009, 01:30
oooh - what a beautiful song!

Also love 'Spacer' by Sheila and B.Devotion (Chic by any other name, a la Sister Sledge)...

Marco
08-07-2009, 07:56
Gosh, I remember that one - '79 I think wasn't it? I was in third year in secondary school :)

I presume you're a 'Le Freak' man, too? 'I feel Love' by Donna Summer is another classic.

D-I-S-C-O rools, daddy-o! :gig:

:carrot:

Marco.

Spectral Morn
08-07-2009, 08:04
Gosh, I remember that one - '79 I think wasn't it? I was in third year in secondary school :)

I presume you're a 'Le Freak' man, too? 'I feel Love' by Donna Summer is another classic.

D-I-S-C-O rools, daddy-o! :gig:

:carrot:

Marco.


Now your talking, I Love Donna Summer...or I should qualify that I love the 10 min + electronic workouts (not quite so keen on the short pop songs).





Regards D S D L

Marco
08-07-2009, 08:10
Yep, DS has real class - I love all her stuff, but some of the 'cheesy' Disco from the '70s was a 'larf, too.

'I lost my heart to a draught excluder' by Sarah B was another one :eyebrows:

Marco.

Yiangos
08-07-2009, 08:28
A couple of days ago,i was reading an article in HFW (not in the latest edition) about some vintage ortofon SPUs and as far as i recall,they loved them !?!?!?

Spectral Morn
08-07-2009, 08:51
Yep, DS has real class - I love all her stuff, but some of the 'cheesy' Disco from the '70s was a 'larf, too.

'I lost my heart to a draught excluder' by Sarah B was another one :eyebrows:

Marco.


The Kenny Everette television show as much to answer for...including Sarah B. She was part of Hot Gossip and Star Ship Trooper came out of the KE show....if my memory serves me right.



Regards D S D L

Barry
08-07-2009, 15:24
A couple of days ago,i was reading an article in HFW (not in the latest edition) about some vintage ortofon SPUs and as far as i recall,they loved them !?!?!?

It wasn't always that way. The author of the article was certainly an admirer of SPUs, but there have been some replys to readers' letters expressing a contrary opinion. (That is as polite a description as I can make!)

Beobloke
09-07-2009, 20:07
F.A.O Dave (DSJR, and also anyone else),

Could you do me a favour and ask what Adam (Beobloke's) problem is with the M3D here on pfm:

http://www.pinkfishmedia.net/forum/showthread.php?t=64664 (see post #12).

I've noted your response on page 2 - you tell 'em, mate!!

HFW is by far my favourite hi-fi magazine, and I get on well with David Price, but I can't for the life of me understand what Adam (and Noel) has got against classic cartridges? They unfairly 'diss' the 103 at every opportunity and now it looks like the M3D is set for similar treatment... :(

What is their problem? They promote all sorts of vintage gear in the magazine, so why not also cartridges that can still compete with, and in many areas outperform, their modern counterparts?

What rips my knitting is that, on one hand, neither of them bats an eyelid (rightly so) extolling the virtues of Garrards or vintage valve gear, but when it comes to cartridges from a similar era, none in their minds can be any good. There’s no reason why well designed vintage cartridges can’t perform as well as some revered vintage equipment, given the right operating environment. Indeed, given such an environment, extensive listening experience tells me quite categorically that they do!!!

Perhaps someone (preferably Adam) could explain the double standards in evidence here? :confused:

Has Adam even heard an M3D? If not, he could try fitting one (with an N21D stylus) to the excellent Jelco SA-750D he reviewed, and so likes, including a heavy headhshell, put that on his Garrard, and then report his findings in the magazine – that way he’d be in a position to know what he’s talking about... Or would that affect his shares in Ortofon, Goldring and Audio Technica? ;)

Anyway, if you could raise this issue with him on pfm on my behalf I'd be much appreciated. You could even link to the discussion here and draw his attention to my comments.

Marco.

Well, no-one tipped me the wink about this thread, Marco, (black marks, David!) but I stumbled on it by chance and it finally inspired me to register with AOS, so that must be something!

So then, what’s all this nonsense about me hating vintage cartridges? Put simply, I think you’re overstating the case a little – let me explain. Yes, I do indeed have a passion for all things audio, and a strong and nerdy obsession with old gear, especially of a vinyl-related nature. The thing is, though, I am an engineer and do realise that both from a design and construction point of view, and a sonic performance one, technology has moved on somewhat.

As you are a reader of Hi-Fi World, you will know that my system consists of both old and new items – I neither dismiss new kit as being rubbish because things were done better in the old days, but nor do I dismiss anything old as outdated and superceded until I have had a chance to try it out. Consider that my Ferrograph S1 loudspeakers were born in the 1970s when, let’s face it, there were a lot of average and quite a few downright rubbish loudspeaker designs on the market. I happen to think that the Ferrographs are one of the better ones and I thoroughly enjoy what they do , but I can assure you that if my lottery numbers ever come up, they won’t be staying in my system for much longer, as I have a list of new and shiny models I would like to replace them with!

As to these infernal cartridges, actually I know both of them, having owned more than one example of each. In fact a recently acquired DL103 is sat very near me right now, as I have bought a turntable with an arm that appears to have the effective mass of the Middlesbrough Transporter Bridge, so I suspect the two will work well together! I have spent time with the DL103 before as, when I first joined HFW nearly three years ago, its resurgence had just started, and I was parked in front of it by Noel for a good few days to give my opinion on it.

That opinion of mine is the same then as it is now, namely that the DL103 is a fine and pleasant sounding cartridge. The trouble is, so is an Audio Technica AT110E, but this is £70 cheaper and, frankly, from my main cartridge I don’t want to be coming up with words like “fine” or “pleasant”; I want “amazing”, “wow” and “brilliant” and that is what I get with the Audio Technica AT-OC9MLII that I use at the moment. I confess that I have not heard the DL103SA or any of the other ‘pimped’ versions but I cannot help but feel that they will all be limited by the 40 year old technology around which they are based – magnets have grown stronger, wire has become higher quality and thinner and stylus profiles have become more complex and better suited to their task since the DL103 first came into life. Equally, the Shure M3D is a fine performer but still not something I would ever become unduly excited about. One of mine sounded very fine in a Garrard 4HF and, no I have never fitted one into my Jelco and added loads of pennies to the headshell – maybe I’ll be shocked by its brilliance if I buy one and do this, who knows?!

Ultimately, we all have different tastes and I will always defend your right to enjoy the M3D and the DL103. Personally, however, they are not my cup of tea and I think it’s fair to say I am in the majority here, be that rightly or wrongly! Consequently, to recommend to magazine readers or other forum users a cartridge that I would never use myself seems a little self-defeating, don’t you think?

Adam.

P.S. –Where DO I get shares in Audio Technica and Ortofon anyway?!

P.P.S. – Oh, yes, and why do I keep having to log back into the forum every five minutes?!!

Joe
09-07-2009, 20:11
Ultimately, we all have different tastes and I will always defend your right to enjoy the M3D and the DL103. Personally, however, they are not my cup of tea

That's fightin' talk!

StanleyB
09-07-2009, 20:13
P.P.S. – Oh, yes, and why do I keep having to log back into the forum every five minutes?!!
You got to keep it quick and short;). It's a sprint, not a marathon...

Stan

Mike
09-07-2009, 20:34
effective mass of the Middlesbrough Transporter Bridge,

Oi... don't tell him that!

I can just about see it from here, and the last thing I need is Marco coming round and trying to have the thing away so he can have it grafted onto his Techie! :lol:

SPS
09-07-2009, 21:33
Ultimately, we all have different tastes and I will always defend your right to enjoy the M3D and the DL103. Personally, however, they are not my cup of tea and I think it’s fair to say I am in the majority here, be that rightly or wrongly! Consequently, to recommend to magazine readers or other forum users a cartridge that I would never use myself seems a little self-defeating, don’t you think?



quite right adam, we all have the right to our opinion, forums and magazines both usually deal with opinions, as there appears no real way of measuring quality with anything but our ears... so does that makes 'quality' reproduction an opinion... I think so...
i would say the majority of your readers will not have heard an m3d set up anything like it needs to be, and with a reasonable performing stylus, so in turn would 'think' them not be their 'cup of tea' ..that would have been my veiw too a couple of years ago...

as you will have read, many commented on the quality of my system at the wigwam show,.. the m3d was playing ...
many other rooms had much more modern and expensive cartriges in their systems.. and my opinion was that they sounded like modern hi fi.. not quite like music was being reproduced reasonably acurately...

steve

Steve Toy
09-07-2009, 21:36
Adam, just tick the box when you log on to be automatically logged on each time you visit. This is not an option if you share computers.

Welcome to AOS btw.

Dave Cawley
09-07-2009, 22:17
Hi Adam

There is nothing wrong with your Hi Fi. Do not attempt to adjust the anti skating. We are controlling the VTA. :kiss:

If we wish to make it louder, we will bring up the volume. If we wish to make it softer, we will tune it to a whisper. We will control the treble. We will control the bass. We can roll the soundstage, make it flutter. We can change the imaging to a soft blur or sharpen it to crystal clarity. For the next hour, sit quietly and we will control all that you hear. We repeat: there is nothing wrong with your Hi Fi. You are about to participate in a great adventure. You are about to experience the awe and mystery which reaches from the inner mind to... The Art Of Sound...............

Regards

:bag:

Dave

Spectral Morn
09-07-2009, 22:41
Hi Adam

There is nothing wrong with your Hi Fi. Do not attempt to adjust the anti skating. We are controlling the VTA. :kiss:

If we wish to make it louder, we will bring up the volume. If we wish to make it softer, we will tune it to a whisper. We will control the treble. We will control the bass. We can roll the soundstage, make it flutter. We can change the imaging to a soft blur or sharpen it to crystal clarity. For the next hour, sit quietly and we will control all that you hear. We repeat: there is nothing wrong with your Hi Fi. You are about to participate in a great adventure. You are about to experience the awe and mystery which reaches from the inner mind to... The Art Of Sound...............

Regards

:bag:

Dave

Hi Dave

I love the original series of the Outer Limits. When I was a kid I used to love/look forward to staying up late and watching the O L. Brilliant stories, acting etc amazing. Bought the DVD box sets a while ago and its all as good as I remember.

http://followthereader.files.wordpress.com/2009/05/outer-limits-screen-capture.jpg

Your adaptation of the opening monologue is pure genius..... I love your version. I can hear the music now by Dominic Frontier...and the voice over.....pure magic.

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/vIi_mYCnZkA&hl=en&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/vIi_mYCnZkA&hl=en&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

Promo guide
<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/C6rJG54nFYY&hl=en&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/C6rJG54nFYY&hl=en&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>



Regards D S D L

Will
09-07-2009, 22:45
I cannot help but feel that they will all be limited by the 40 year old technology around which they are based – magnets have grown stronger, wire has become higher quality and thinner and stylus profiles have become more complex and better suited to their task since the DL103 first came into life.

This tells to me you dont know a great deal about these vintage cartridges and why they are liked by so many people.
They are other cartridges not mentioned SL15 and Coral share the same musical flavour.
There are vintage speakers and speakers in production that at a price have the same musical flavour.

The thing that the cartridges and speaker drivers have in common is.......
ALNICO MAGNETS....... not Neo magnets, they also have wire so thin you need a glass to see it well the Coral does:doh:

Marco
09-07-2009, 23:07
I'm in complete agreement, chaps - especially re: Alnico magnets! Every time I hear a cartridge that uses them, I love it :cool:

I'm afraid that to my ears 95% of modern cartridges sound cold, clinical, rather 'frigid', and tonally, way too bright and somewhat thin sounding. The vast majority all seem to suffer from rising treble peaks. Who voices them like this and why? :scratch:

To my mind they just don't sound natural or anything like how real music does...

Hi Adam,

Welcome to AOS. Good to see you join David here at last :)

I'm just off to bed in a mo, so will come back to you later on your earlier, very informative, post!

Marco.

P.S Did you get the PM I sent?

The Grand Wazoo
09-07-2009, 23:15
I'm afraid that to my ears 95% of modern cartridges sound cold, clinical, rather 'frigid', and tonally, way too bright and somewhat thin sounding. The vast majority all seem to suffer from rising treble peaks. Who voices them like this and why?

To my mind they just don't sound natural or anything like how real music does...

I've been thinking for a long while now that most modern cartridges are the equivalent to a tomahawk - pretty good as a tool for scalping jobs, but not much good for anything else.

Modern AT's? .........Ortofon's?.............no thanks!
Speakers have been going that way for a long while too.

Marco
09-07-2009, 23:27
Couldn't agree more, Chris!!!

Right, we'll continue this later guys and gals... :goodnight:

Marco.

Beobloke
10-07-2009, 06:42
I'm afraid that to my ears 95% of modern cartridges sound cold, clinical, rather 'frigid', and tonally, way too bright and somewhat thin sounding. The vast majority all seem to suffer from rising treble peaks. Who voices them like this and why? :scratch:

To my mind they just don't sound natural or anything like how real music does...

Hi Adam,

Welcome to AOS. Good to see you join David here at last :)

I'm just off to bed in a mo, so will come back to you later on your earlier, very informative, post!

Marco.

P.S Did you get the PM I sent?

And therein lies the essential difference between our ears, as I find a good deal of older items to be rather, warm, wooly, fluffy and "nice" (dammit, there's that word again!). I was at a jazz concert in Chichester Cathedral not long ago and sat barely ten feet away from the drumkit - it reminded me that a real, live, unmiked drumkit is actually a pretty bright and cold sounding device and that most hi-fi systems make a pretty poor job of reproducing this effectively.

Marco - Yes I got your PM, thankyou. Somehow I suspect your last request might be a long shot! :)

Adam.

NRG
10-07-2009, 06:51
And therein lies the essential difference between our ears, as I find a good deal of older items to be rather, warm, wooly, fluffy and "nice" (dammit, there's that word again!). I was at a jazz concert in Chichester Cathedral not long ago and sat barely ten feet away from the drumkit - it reminded me that a real, live, unmiked drumkit is actually a pretty bright and cold sounding device and that most hi-fi systems make a pretty poor job of reproducing this effectively.

Marco - Yes I got your PM, thankyou. Somehow I suspect your last request might be a long shot! :)

Adam.

That makes two of us Adam. I get to listen to a variety of bands that play locally and the drum kit is just one part of the performance that stands out. Snare is very incisive and if you can get close enough the impact and force is clearly felt...nothing like the sound from Hi-Fi

NRG
10-07-2009, 08:00
Alnico magnets……I’ve seen them mentioned before on other forums and once or twice in HFW. What make them so special compared to the rare earth types?

They have a much lower BH max energy and rather poor coercivity in comparison…they are easily demagnetized. They’re also larger than rare earth types for the same magnetic strength; they do work at higher temperatures though….good for playing your vinyl when the ambient reaches +200c ;)

Yes they are used in ‘speaker drive units but is that because of more practical considerations? IE: they don’t cost that much, they are resistant to corrosion in their natural state and they can be easily cast into the size and shape you need?

Yes the DL103 and M3D, plus many other carts from that era use them, but isn’t that more down to practicality as Alnico was probably the only commercially viable solution back in the 1960’s….

I think there’s a bit of an Audio myth built up around these magnets but I’ll stand corrected if there’s something I’ve overlooked. :)

StanleyB
10-07-2009, 08:02
If you want that type of speed of sound from your hifi you'll need paper cone speakers and high slew rate amplifiers.

Stan

Marco
10-07-2009, 08:38
Hi Adam,


And therein lies the essential difference between our ears, as I find a good deal of older items to be rather, warm, wooly, fluffy and "nice" (dammit, there's that word again!).


I'm completely with you there (couldn't agree more, in fact!) but you're missing the point. I don't do "warm", "wooly", "fluffy" or "nice" - nothing individually in my system sounds like that, and neither does my system, collectively as whole - far from it :)

The point I'm making is that the best classic cartridges when synergistically partnered and set-up properly sound in my experience much more natural and 'real' than some of the falsely 'pumped-up', treble-emphasised, abominations foisted upon us by manufacturers nowadays.

This treble emphasis is something which they mostly all exhibit, and is measurable, too. One only has to look at the likes of the Lyra Dorian or Argo, OC-9, and even the ludicrously expensive VDH Canary that Noel reviewed in last month's magazine, for evidence of this. And there are many more such examples. Now, whatever way you cut it, the fact that there is this emphasis on the upper frequencies means that it deviates quite significantly from neutrality, and therefore in effect the sound produced cannot be 'natural'.

Experience tells me that the DL-103SA or M3D, used in their correct 'operating environment' (I trust you know what I mean by that) do not exhibit such treble emphasis, or the overtly clinical portrayal of music of many modern designs, but *neither* do they sound dull, "warm", "wooly" or "fluffy" - trust me, I hate that sort of sound with a passion and could never tolerate listening to anything resembling it. The 103SA or M3D just sound 'right', and give music proper weight and 'foundation', without the lightweight, 'toppy' and often anaemic presentation of many modern designs in comparison.

In my view, it’s all about choosing your compromises. There’s a sonic penalty to pay with the use of modern 'fine-line' styli (pronounced treble emphasis, and an overtly analytical, rather 'cool' overall presentation), just as there is with traditional spherical types ('warmer', less explicitly detailed sound). Neither is perfect, but I know which one for me sounds most like real music. You may disagree, and that’s fine. Noel touches on this point in his comparison between the Blue and Bronze Ortofon Cadenza MCs in this month's mag.

I don't really expect you to fully 'get' what I mean about the 103SA and M3D, simply because you've not experienced how these cartridges can sound like others and I here have, but if I were a betting man, I'd bet any amount of money that you would if you came and listened to my system and heard it for yourself ;)

Hopefully David will 'get' it when he reviews the 'SL-1210 MP' (complete with 103SA) in a forthcoming issue of the magazine :cool:


I was at a jazz concert in Chichester Cathedral not long ago and sat barely ten feet away from the drumkit - it reminded me that a real, live, unmiked drumkit is actually a pretty bright and cold sounding device and that most hi-fi systems make a pretty poor job of reproducing this effectively.


No argument there whatsoever. Reproducing a drum kit anywhere near realistically is something that's beyond most hi-fi systems, although my 30W Class A P/P Copper amp and (huge) Lockwood Majors with 95db 15" Tannoy Monitor Reds have a fairly good go at it! :fingers:


Marco - Yes I got your PM, thankyou. Somehow I suspect your last request might be a long shot!


LOL - indeed! One can but try. I bet he reads them, though! :eyebrows:

Marco.

P.S I'll get to your earlier 'introductory' post later. I'm not long up, so my wee brain hasn't fully kicked-in yet!

anthonyTD
10-07-2009, 08:42
hi all,
there is indeed a diffrence between alnico and modern magnet material, but as some have already said,,, i too think it is probably due to its deficiancies rather than its merrets, [stay with me here] i would compare this diffrence to shock absorbers on a car, if you want comfort use soft ones, if you want the suspension to act as quickly as posible then fit more powerfull shocks! what i am saying is,,, the reason i think alnico based speakers and cartridges have this paticular sonic performance is because the magnetic feild produced is weaker hence the control over the moving parts is weaker...
anthony,TD...
PS, before i get slated for something i havent actually said, i would just like to point out that somewhere between the two technologies there is a compromise and neither in my opinion is right or wrong, just diffrent!

Mr. C
10-07-2009, 08:58
I was at a jazz concert in Chichester Cathedral not long ago and sat barely ten feet away from the drumkit - it reminded me that a real, live, unmiked drumkit is actually a pretty bright and cold sounding device and that most hi-fi systems make a pretty poor job of reproducing this effectively

Adam.

Hello Adam,

I would agree with this statement, having played the drums for pretty much a quarter of century (ouch that hurt!), finding a system that can make a passable stab at recreating the immediacy, dynamic impact, skin resonance trailing note body and realness of a drum kit in full flight is very difficult.
In the same way recreating a 120 piece orchestra in full flight, you will need sheer scale,(effortless), dynamics, the ability to capture nuances, subtlety and the trait to be able to place the the Orchestra correctly.
Now in both cases, being very close to these events can be quite stark at best, the sheer force and scale of music, impact and rasp of brass, symbols, high energy impacts, in quick succession, strings in close proximity would be pretty intolerable for most listeners.
If you were able to genuine recreate this near field experience the vast majority of the UK hifi enthusiasts would run a mile.
Genuine drum kits, (with a drummer who knows his trade :eyebrows:) are incredibly dynamic, fast, sheer force impacts, symbols that can shimmer or crash, kick drums that can thump you in the chest, and this BEFORE amplification is thrown into the mix.
A while back we acquired a recording studio, hearing recordings as they happen is a real ear opener.
Now, paper cones give a natural, articulate and pleasing response right up-to the point the break up (usually in a good way), they never seem to get edgy on their break up point unless you are feeding them DC lol!
If you have genuinely heard a professional drummer (is there such a thing, I was always told we are guys that hang around with musicians :lol:) in a studio or small room enviroment, the slam has amazing intimacy, incredible dynamics, and sheer impact force almost makes you recoil every time the skins are struck (if you are not use to this)
95% of hifi systems we have heard have not had the ability to approach this, those that do have a good go at it! but truly cannot represent it 'honestly'
The truth is very few people would want to hear it honestly, it would simply be 'too much'.
The resolution required, articulation, amplifier control, speaker ability and room interaction factors weigh heavily against this.
A few comments like Artificially tight bass?, constipated lower frequencies, completely un-natural bass, have been levelled at solid state amplification. Whether from a plucked double bass, a fender precision, a tuba or a kick drum etc.
Real genuine bass consists of the following, impact, dynamics, texture,articulation, lead edge and trailing edge note body, depth and placement and rhythmic intact.It should also be able to recreate the frequencies it is portraying, if that means a genuine sub 30Hz (providing the speaker is able to generate this) then it should be there.
For this it requires control, though not so controlled as the sound remains firmly routed in the speakers, it should be 'free' and and following from the speakers.
I can think of nothing worse than big wobbly soft, over full, artificially rich, bloated, mistimed, and plain unadulterated false bass and the truly bad ones are 'blessed' with partial note formation
Just for the record we have valve amplifiaction here that can do all of the above well and we use them on a daily basis to much smile factoring too!
Basically it boils down to how you like your music, most like a good facsimile with 'their' tastes added it works for the individual and like all thing 'which aint broke' down fix it! However some of the public like it 'real' so in the same way they have their 'taste'

Marco
10-07-2009, 09:05
Alnico magnets……I’ve seen them mentioned before on other forums and once or twice in HFW. What make them so special compared to the rare earth types?


No idea Neal, but every time I listen to a cartridge that uses them, I hear that big, 'ballsy', rhythmic sound with a glorious 'valve-like' midrange and gorgeous 'tone', I *so* love!

I believe that the use of Alnico magnets is fundamentally responsible for the magical way 103s and M3Ds, SPUs, etc, have with music, when performing optimally. Let's not forget also that Audio Note and EMT use them in their current designs (again I love the sound of these cartridges), and I believe some SPUs (and the SL-15) do, too.

To my mind, there is unquestionably a 'family sonic signature' with cartridges that use Alnico magnets, and I just love what they do with music. Whether or not they are technically 'superior' or not is another matter, but who cares? - Certainly not me. As ever in hi-fi, measurements don't tell the full story.

Marco.

anthonyTD
10-07-2009, 09:06
Hello Adam,

I would agree with this statement, having played the drums for pretty much a quarter of century (ouch that hurt!), finding a system that can make a passable stab at recreating the immediacy, dynamic impact, skin resonance trailing note body and realness of a drum kit in full flight is very difficult.
In the same way recreating a 120 piece orchestra in full flight, you will need sheer scale,(effortless), dynamics, the ability to capture nuances, subtlety and the trait to be able to place the the Orchestra correctly.
Now in both cases, being very close to these events can be quite stark at best, the sheer force and scale of music, impact and rasp of brass, symbols, high energy impacts, in quick succession, strings in close proximity would be pretty intolerable for most listeners.
If you were able to genuine recreate this near field experience the vast majority of the UK hifi enthusiasts would run a mile.
Genuine drum kits, (with a drummer who knows his trade :eyebrows:) are incredibly dynamic, fast, sheer force impacts, symbols that can shimmer or crash, kick drums that can thump you in the chest, and this BEFORE amplification is thrown into the mix.
A while back we acquired a recording studio, hearing recordings as they happen is a real ear opener.
Now, paper cones give a natural, articulate and pleasing response right up-to the point the break up (usually in a good way), they never seem to get edgy on their break up point unless you are feeding them DC lol!
If you have genuinely heard a professional drummer (is there such a thing, I was always told we are guys that hang around with musicians :lol:) in a studio or small room enviroment, the slam has amazing intimacy, incredible dynamics, and sheer impact force almost makes you recoil every time the skins are struck (if you are not use to this)
95% of hifi systems we have heard have not had the ability to approach this, those that do have a good go at it! but truly cannot represent it 'honestly'
The truth is very few people would want to hear it honestly, it would simply be 'too much'.
The resolution required, articulation, amplifier control, speaker ability and room interaction factors weigh heavily against this.
A few comments like Artificially tight bass?, constipated lower frequencies, completely un-natural bass, have been levelled at solid state amplification. Whether from a plucked double bass, a fender precision, a tuba or a kick drum etc.
Real genuine bass consists of the following, impact, dynamics, texture,articulation, lead edge and trailing edge note body, depth and placement and rhythmic intact.It should also be able to recreate the frequencies it is portraying, if that means a genuine sub 30Hz (providing the speaker is able to generate this) then it should be there.
For this it requires control, though not so controlled as the sound remains firmly routed in the speakers, it should be 'free' and and following from the speakers.
I can think of nothing worse than big wobbly soft, over full, artificially rich, bloated, mistimed, and plain unadulterated false bass and the truly bad one are 'blessed' with partial note formation
Just for the record we have valve amplifiaction here that can do all of the above well and we use them on a daily basis to much smile factoring too!
Basically it boils down to how you like your music, most like a good facsimile with 'their' tastes added it works for the individual and like all thing 'which aint broke' down fix it! However some of public like it 'real' so in the same way they have their 'taste'

:clap::clap::clap:

Marco
10-07-2009, 09:20
hi all,
there is indeed a diffrence between alnico and modern magnet material, but as some have already said,,, i too think it is probably due to its deficiancies rather than its merrets, [stay with me here] i would compare this diffrence to shock absorbers on a car, if you want comfort use soft ones, if you want the suspension to act as quickly as posible then fit more powerfull shocks! what i am saying is,,, the reason i think alnico based speakers and cartridges have this paticular sonic performance is because the magnetic feild produced is weaker hence the control over the moving parts is weaker...
anthony,TD...


Hi Anthony,

I'm in no position to dispute that, however as always with hi-fi, as I'm sure you'll agree, nothing is ever so 'black & white' :)

I get where you're coming from, and you're right to an extent, but I don't like what Alnico magnets do because they make music more 'comfortable' to listen to - I like them because for me they make music sound more 'real'!

You've heard the Denon DL-103SA in my system, which uses Alnico magnets, (and at the show at Scalford hall). I'm sure you'll concede that there didn't appear to be too much 'deficient' with the sound :eyebrows: ;)

In my view, musically, Alnicos get less wrong than their modern counterparts - that's the way I'd put it. The same could also be said for vintage Tannoys, which I believe also use Alnico magnets. There you go, it's that Alnico magnet thing again, only this time with speakers... To my mind, there is something just so 'right' about the signature they impart onto music.

Marco.

P.S Yes, excellent post by Tony!

NRG
10-07-2009, 09:48
As I said I think a myth has / is being built up around these magnets, yes they are weaker for a given size, their use I believe is more of a practical nature than of any mysterious audio properties they may allegedly possess. Their use in 'speakers is one of commercial practicality I'm sure.

I don't see how you can say Marco that they 'get less wrong than their modern counterparts' What does that mean....its not like you can compare a 103 with Alnico and the same 103 with a rare earth magnet... is it?

I have a feeling if rare earth types where available and commercially viable back in the 1960's Denon and others would have used them... ;) Maybe...

anthonyTD
10-07-2009, 09:51
Hi Anthony,

I'm in no position to dispute that, however as always with hi-fi, as I'm sure you'll agree, nothing is ever so 'black & white' :)

I get where you're coming from, and you're right to an extent, but I don't like what Alnico magnets do because they make music more 'comfortable' to listen to - I like them because for me they make music sound more 'real'!

You've heard the Denon DL-103SA in my system, which uses Alnico magnets, (and at the show at Scalford hall). I'm sure you'll concede that there didn't appear to be too much 'deficient' with the sound :eyebrows: ;)

In my view, musically, Alnicos get less wrong than their modern counterparts - that's the way I'd put it. The same could also be said for vintage Tannoys, which I believe also use Alnico magnets. There you go, it's that Alnico magnet thing again, only this time with speakers... To my mind, there is something just so 'right' about the signature they impart onto music.

Marco.

P.S Yes, excellent post by Tony!

hi marco,
if you read the adition to my original post[;:eyebrows:] i have already stated that i dont beleive that either technology in as far as cartridges and speakers are concerned is right or wrong, all i am saying is alnico based components may let the individual moving parts move a bit more freely, where as rare earth magnets and ceramic magnets will tend to have more grip over the moving parts due to their higher strength, [this is not taking into acount diffrences in flux gaps etc] my point is; either can sound great or crap depending on the system they are partnered with!:)
anthony,TD...

Marco
10-07-2009, 10:41
Hi Neal,


As I said I think a myth has / is being built up around these magnets...


What "myth" is this, then? That cartridges using them in their generator system to other's ears and mine sound better? ;)

I am aware of no other "myth".


...yes they are weaker for a given size, their use I believe is more of a practical nature than of any mysterious audio properties they may allegedly possess. Their use in 'speakers is one of commercial practicality I'm sure.


I'm in no position to dispute that, but these "mysterious audio properties" to me are very real. Is it just a coincidence then that almost every cartridge I like, despite being different in other areas, just happens to use Alnico magnets? I think not.

I believe that the use of Alnico magnets creates a 'common' sonic signature in components, which for me is easily discernable.


I don't see how you can say Marco that they 'get less wrong than their modern counterparts' What does that mean....its not like you can compare a 103 with Alnico and the same 103 with a rare earth magnet... is it?


It's just a theory I have, Neal. I can't prove it though. I should extrapolate and say that classic cartridges I use and enjoy, with Alnico magnets, in my opinion get less wrong, musically, than their modern counterparts. I believe that the use of Alnico magnets in their design is fundamental and significant.


I have a feeling if rare earth types where available and commercially viable back in the 1960's Denon and others would have used them... Maybe...

Maybe; who knows? But then equally, perhaps, they might not have ended up with the superbly musical results that they obtained with the DL-103 (when everything is working in its favour)? ;)

We shall never know!

Marco.

Marco
10-07-2009, 10:45
hi marco,
if you read the adition to my original post[;:eyebrows:] i have already stated that i dont beleive that either technology in as far as cartridges and speakers are concerned is right or wrong, all i am saying is alnico based components may let the individual moving parts move a bit more freely, where as rare earth magnets and ceramic magnets will tend to have more grip over the moving parts due to their higher strength, [this is not taking into acount diffrences in flux gaps etc] my point is; either can sound great or crap depending on the system they are partnered with!


Hi Anthony,

Couldn't agree more. Quite simply, there are no absolutes in hi-fi - everything depends on application.

Marco.

Beobloke
10-07-2009, 11:42
I think you'll find that the issue with Alnico magents is that the corresponding components around them have to be designed differently to factor in their magnetic field, which is inherently weaker than that of a modern ferrite or neodymium magnet.

What this means is lighter cones and smaller motor systems that have a greatly different damping effect to a modern driver with a higher moving mass, hence giving rise to the difference in sound quality. There is no reason a cartridge would be any different - a weaker magnet will require more turns of wire for the same output which gives a higher coil inductance and rolls the top end off.

Also, there is one other point to be made regarding the modern cartridges' rising treble response that needs to be considered, namely that of loading. I know that Noel generally tests cartidges with no capacitive loading, in order to give a level playing field and reference point for comparison, so to speak, but the addition of this will alter the cartridge's frequency response and sound. I would wager very few of us have zero capacitive loading on our MCs.

i_should_coco
10-07-2009, 12:01
Another technology that is seeing a resurgence is field coil (electro) magnets. The best of the breed seems to be able to give a sound quality like no other.

My Io Ltd. sounds very different to an Io Gold, which is basically the same thing but with AlNiCo magnets rather than the electromagnet of the Ltd. The rest of the cartridge is the same - body, stylus, cantilever, etc. And yet it sounds like it has significantly lower distortion. It's not an issue of field strength - the Ltd. has a lower field strength. Interestingly, it's very sensitive to the quality of the supply - moving to a battery was an enormous upgrade.

but it's only a magnet, right?

I also have some RCA field coil compression drivers on the way, once they have been rebuilt. Really looking forward to those.

Marco
10-07-2009, 12:08
Hi Adam,


Well, no-one tipped me the wink about this thread, Marco, (black marks, David!) but I stumbled on it by chance and it finally inspired me to register with AOS, so that must be something!


LOL. I’m glad it did! You spend enough time on pfm and Wigwam, so I’m pleased you’ve now added AOS to your forum posting portfolio ;)


So then, what’s all this nonsense about me hating vintage cartridges?


It was a tongue-in-cheek remark based on the 'jibe' you made about the M3D on pfm. I get the feeling that there is (almost) a resentment of cartridges such as the 103 and M3D by the likes of Noel and you, perhaps due to your engineering background and your predilection to the notion that 'whatever measures better/is made of 'superior' materials' *is* better. It’s just how you guys often come across, that’s all. You can now prove me wrong, or not! (LOL).


Put simply, I think you’re overstating the case a little – let me explain. Yes, I do indeed have a passion for all things audio, and a strong and nerdy obsession with old gear, especially of a vinyl-related nature. The thing is, though, I am an engineer and do realise that both from a design and construction point of view, and a sonic performance one, technology has moved on somewhat.


Yes, but you see the mistake you seem to make is to automatically presume that just because things have "moved on", that they’re unquestionably better. I can think of numerous examples in hi-fi where that’s most certainly not the case. Sometimes things are just 'right' from the beginning, and it’s very difficult to improve on them.


As you are a reader of Hi-Fi World, you will know that my system consists of both old and new items – I neither dismiss new kit as being rubbish because things were done better in the old days, but nor do I dismiss anything old as outdated and superceded until I have had a chance to try it out.


That’s the right attitude and one I wholly endorse myself. The difference with me though, I would politely suggest, is that when something’s old I’ll go to the nth degree to find the right partnering ancillaries in which to optimise its performance before arriving at a definitive conclusion. With respect, I don’t believe that you’ve done this with either the DL-103 or M3D, as others have also pointed out.


Consider that my Ferrograph S1 loudspeakers were born in the 1970s when, let’s face it, there were a lot of average and quite a few downright rubbish loudspeaker designs on the market. I happen to think that the Ferrographs are one of the better ones and I thoroughly enjoy what they do , but I can assure you that if my lottery numbers ever come up, they won’t be staying in my system for much longer, as I have a list of new and shiny models I would like to replace them with!


That’s fair enough. But I’d wager that if you did so you’d miss some of the 'magic' of the Ferrographs, and what you like about their way of music-making, in the process. Properly 'sorted' classic loudspeaker designs (and indeed 'classic' anything, for that matter) for me undoubtedly have a certain 'magic' about their musical presentation that’s missing in modern designs. It’s to do with voicing - and it’s a trade-off (tone and timbre vs. 'clarity' and detail retrieval) that in most circumstances I’m not willing to make. You may be able to do so though, and that’s entirely your prerogative.

"New and shiny", for me, in hi-fi does not automatically mean better. It can in certain circumstances, but it is far from being guaranteed. In fact, I would go as far to say that out with of computer audio and some areas of digital, the *best* of classic hi-fi outperforms the *best* of modern hi-fi, certainly in the areas that I value in music. Some of the speakers being made today, and being passed as 'musical' are, quite frankly, shocking. Don't get me wrong, there's plenty of old tat, too, but when you find a genuine gem, it's often very hard to beat.


As to these infernal cartridges, actually I know both of them, having owned more than one example of each. In fact a recently acquired DL103 is sat very near me right now, as I have bought a turntable with an arm that appears to have the effective mass of the Middlesbrough Transporter Bridge, so I suspect the two will work well together! I have spent time with the DL103 before as, when I first joined HFW nearly three years ago, its resurgence had just started, and I was parked in front of it by Noel for a good few days to give my opinion on it.


Which arm is it? I’d be interested to know. I’ll certainly be interested to know your thoughts when you get around to listening to the combination. It would make an intriguing comparison to the review of the 103SA that David’s going to do. What you should bear in mind though is that, after the conical stylus, the highly resonant plastic body shell of the 103 is what 'holds it back' most. Therefore, until you hear a 103 without its plastic body shell, or one with one of the 'fancy' shells, and you use it with a properly matched SUT, IMO, you won’t ever hear what it’s truly capable of.


That opinion of mine is the same then as it is now, namely that the DL103 is a fine and pleasant sounding cartridge. The trouble is, so is an Audio Technica AT110E, but this is £70 cheaper and, frankly, from my main cartridge I don’t want to be coming up with words like “fine” or “pleasant”; I want “amazing”, “wow” and “brilliant” and that is what I get with the Audio Technica AT-OC9MLII that I use at the moment.


LOL. I’m not quite sure what you mean by "pleasant", but that’s not how I’d describe the sound I get with the 103. In my system, the 103SA is precisely all the things you say about your OC-9. However, I could neither live with an OC-9 as my full-time cartridge or that horrid 'toppy' sounding abomination, the AT110E, simply because of its peaky treble emphasis. I respect what the OC-9 does in a technical sense, but I find its way of music-making rather matter-of-fact and clinical, in comparison to what I’m used to. Basically, it lacks 'soul'.


I confess that I have not heard the DL103SA or any of the other ‘pimped’ versions but I cannot help but feel that they will all be limited by the 40 year old technology around which they are based – magnets have grown stronger, wire has become higher quality and thinner and stylus profiles have become more complex and better suited to their task since the DL103 first came into life.


You see, there’s that 'engineer’s head' of yours, influencing things again ;) Theories are all good and well in hi-fi, but the proof of the pudding is always in the listening! Have a listen to the 103SA in David’s 'SL-1210 MP' when it’s at World towers, and just maybe, your preconceptions will be unjustified…


Equally, the Shure M3D is a fine performer but still not something I would ever become unduly excited about. One of mine sounded very fine in a Garrard 4HF and, no I have never fitted one into my Jelco and added loads of pennies to the headshell – maybe I’ll be shocked by its brilliance if I buy one and do this, who knows?!


Why not try it as part of a feature in a forthcoming magazine? With the Jelco, you wouldn’t need loads of pennies, just a high-mass NOS detachable headshell, which is a much better and more elegant solution. There are plenty around if you look.


Ultimately, we all have different tastes and I will always defend your right to enjoy the M3D and the DL103. Personally, however, they are not my cup of tea and I think it’s fair to say I am in the majority here, be that rightly or wrongly!


We probably do have different tastes, and that’s fine. If the M3D and DL-103 definitely aren’t your cup of tea, then who am I to argue? However, I’d contend that you’ve not heard either cartridge properly (as I’ve outlined), and certainly neither have the vast majority of 'naysayers' you mention, so such statistics unfortunately mean very little.


Consequently, to recommend to magazine readers or other forum users a cartridge that I would never use myself seems a little self-defeating, don’t you think?


I see what you mean, but I don't really agree. The whole point I would’ve thought is to recommend equipment (or whatever) to your readers, based on the information they’ve given, that best fits their needs. I do this all the time here when advising people, or answering their questions.

It’s not just about what you like, is it? How many of your readers share your specific tastes?

There are many things that I recommend people to use on AOS which I wouldn’t necessary use myself, but which from experience I’m confident would fit the bill - and indeed this is often proven to be the case when they try whatever I recommend and later report how happy they are with the results. This, in my opinion, is what’s often lacking in the advice given in the letters section of your magazine: variety in recommendations offered, which are tailored to meet a reader's specific needs.

When cartridges are recommended, it’s always bloody Audio-Technica, Ortofon or Goldring that’s mentioned – there appears to be an obsession with cartridges from these particular manufacturers, and a seemingly complete lack of lateral thinking (and 'left-field' choices) shown/offered by the assembled cognoscenti of HFW. Not everyone likes or wants the sonic presentation you guys value, or indeed have the systems to compliment it.

Therefore, IMO, more lateral thinking is needed when offering advice to your readers. Oh, and if Noel mentions the word "modern" again in his reviews, or whatever (it’s always 'modern this, modern that'), I’ll… Ahem... You get the message! :eyebrows:

Anyway, sorry for the epic post, but I felt that it was important to clear up a few points. I do hope you continue to grace us with your presence, as I always enjoy reading your articles in the magazine and what you write on other forums, even if sometimes I don’t agree with it! :lolsign:

Marco.

Marco
10-07-2009, 13:02
I think you'll find that the issue with Alnico magents is that the corresponding components around them have to be designed differently to factor in their magnetic field, which is inherently weaker than that of a modern ferrite or neodymium magnet.

What this means is lighter cones and smaller motor systems that have a greatly different damping effect to a modern driver with a higher moving mass, hence giving rise to the difference in sound quality. There is no reason a cartridge would be any different - a weaker magnet will require more turns of wire for the same output which gives a higher coil inductance and rolls the top end off.


I'm not technically minded, Adam, so unfortunately none of that means anything to me.

Whatever it is, though, I'm convinced that Alnico magnets contribute to a sound with equipment or speakers which I find as being more musically 'faithful' than that offered by their modern counterparts. If possible, it would be interesting to test this theory by listening to two pairs of otherwise identical speakers (ones using Alnicos and ones not) and comparing how they sound.


Also, there is one other point to be made regarding the modern cartridges' rising treble response that needs to be considered, namely that of loading. I know that Noel generally tests cartidges with no capacitive loading, in order to give a level playing field and reference point for comparison, so to speak, but the addition of this will alter the cartridge's frequency response and sound. I would wager very few of us have zero capacitive loading on our MCs.

Sure, but all that matters in the 'real world', so to speak, is the results people obtain in their systems at home. I've used many modern cartridges, OC-9s, Lyras, etc, with a variety of (variable loading) phono stages, and although you can tailor the sound to degree, their inherently 'bright'/forward presentation is integral to their design, and comes mainly from the stylus type chosen, and other things, during the voicing process of the designer/ manufacturer.

To use Noel's terminology, there is a "modern" sound (forward and overtly detailed/superficially 'impressive') which is almost 'expected' of cartridges nowadays in order to make them competitive, because seemingly, this is what most people want. Therefore, manufacturers simply offer the path of least resistance and supply the demand. I'm not saying that this is what always happens, but commercial reality dictates that it often applies.

It's not just cartridges it happens with either, but speakers, amps, CDPs - everything. We've almost completely moved away from valuing tone and timbre with most of today's hi-fi equipment, in my opinion, to the detriment of genuinely musical sounding hi-fi reproduction.

Marco.

griffo104
10-07-2009, 13:18
I don't get this "Lyra's are bright thing". My system certainly isn't bright and swapping my Dorian for carts for other carts I still don't get this, it has very good treble detail which makes for a very enjoyable sound.

As mentioned previously on another thread. I listen to a friend's system quite rugluarly and he has an OL arm with a Argo and again I don't find this bright. After a recent bake off where we compared decks and phonos what it showed me was haw far better the OL/Argo Whest was at getting detail of the record and the producing bass, much like Tony's comments in his excellent post, compared the other cart (Shelter/SUt/P10) combo).

For me there's no doubt which one was closer to neutral. I find it hard when Marco talks about neutrality when he has cart which to my ears is coloured, and in case of the DL103 has obvious distorion problems at inner grooves.

I'm not denying that the one setup was enjoyable but switching back to the other highlighted what was on the record much more.

As mentioned, it one persons taste.

I'll go back to Tony's post. Having gone to many classical conerts I decided there was no way a hifi can reproduce that (ok may be 5% can as mentione in Tony's thread) but certainly not ones within my price, so therefore I stopped looking for neutrality and transparency and concentrated on finding a system I enjoy. And that so far has always had a Lyra cart at the very front end.

Marco
10-07-2009, 13:45
Hi Griffo,


I don't get this "Lyra's are bright thing".


It depends what you mean by "bright" - it's all subjective and also system-dependant. My system is extremely revealing (it's been deliberately set-up this way), so any nasty treble emphasis (or other sonic traits) of cartridges and/or equipment is ruthlessly revealed.

The Argo(i) I had was most certainly unpleasantly forward sounding in my system compared to the DL-103R I was using at the time. The Dorian you use may well have a more even tonal response. I'm not alone in my thoughts about the Argo, as I've heard Rob Holt (a Lyra fan) say the same thing, and others too. I believe for that reason he moved to an AT-33PTG, which is in my experience a much more even-handed performer.

I've owned a few different Lyra cartridges in the past, and experience suggests that they're voiced with the emphasis more on detail retrieval and 'clarity' than the tone and timbre I value - it's all personal taste :)


I find it hard when Marco talks about neutrality when he has cart which to my ears is coloured, and in case of the DL103 has obvious distorion problems at inner grooves.


It's all about our relevant experiences and our definition of "neutrality".

Remember, you haven't heard a 103SA, so please bear that in mind when you refer to 'his cartridge' ;), or (arguably) a stock 103 optimised in the right system. Also, this oft-mentioned "groove distortion" is simply not a real issue (by which I mean the effect is largely ameliorated) when any 103 has been optimised in the right system and set-up properly.


...so therefore I stopped looking for neutrality and transparency and concentrated on finding a system I enjoy.


Same here - that's the most important thing, as the other things you mentioned aren't really attainable. However, our respective 'journeys' to achieve that goal have been very different :cool:

Marco.

anthonyTD
10-07-2009, 14:04
Another technology that is seeing a resurgence is field coil (electro) magnets. The best of the breed seems to be able to give a sound quality like no other.

My Io Ltd. sounds very different to an Io Gold, which is basically the same thing but with AlNiCo magnets rather than the electromagnet of the Ltd. The rest of the cartridge is the same - body, stylus, cantilever, etc. And yet it sounds like it has significantly lower distortion. It's not an issue of field strength - the Ltd. has a lower field strength. Interestingly, it's very sensitive to the quality of the supply - moving to a battery was an enormous upgrade.

but it's only a magnet, right?

I also have some RCA field coil compression drivers on the way, once they have been rebuilt. Really looking forward to those.

my dad was a service engineer from the 1950's onwards and repaired everything from televisions to toasters and he always said [even to this day] that the sound from mains energised, or field coil electo magnet speakers was hard to beat!:smoking:
A...

griffo104
10-07-2009, 14:13
Hearing two deck setups next to each other (and swapping the SUT/phono) I find it quite amazing how the Lyra Argo (not the i version but a new ESC retip so paraglide or whatever they call it :)) opens up the sound and lets the detail flood out.

Reading Tony's description of bass is very much what the Argo did to the sound, even more so when the SUt/P10 was removed and replaced with the solid state Whest.

As you say it down to personal taste and one's own perception. It merely highlighted why I enjoy the Lyra way so much.

For met this sound isn't bright. It's just bring much more detail to the game for which some people , not saying you here by the way, may mistake this for brightness.

I've heard the 103 in a couple of setups now and I'm still amazed that people like it, sorry but I just don't get why you would go to such lengths to get something like the 103 performing optimally when there's carts that can perform optimally so much easier.

I've just been looking at new carts, the Dorian has a fair few hours on now, and I'd love to get another one but in fancying a change I've ended up with the Benz Micro carts on my radar, very different to the Lyras but they have such a wonderful easy flow to the much that I'm finding them very tempting.

For me the sound you describe is what a lot of people refer to as the 'analogue sound' when they respond to me knowing I'm in to vinyl but I don't see that anymore. Carts like the Lyras has been able to take detail and show it to the listener and bring it with a clarity I haven't heard before at that price. It remnds of some of the good things CD does but still brings that organic feel to the music that makes so many of us love vinyl.

It's all good fun :cool:, and leads to much music listening.

Marco
10-07-2009, 14:17
My Io Ltd. sounds very different to an Io Gold, which is basically the same thing but with AlNiCo magnets rather than the electromagnet of the Ltd. The rest of the cartridge is the same - body, stylus, cantilever, etc. And yet it sounds like it has significantly lower distortion. It's not an issue of field strength - the Ltd. has a lower field strength. Interestingly, it's very sensitive to the quality of the supply - moving to a battery was an enormous upgrade.


Pete,

Maybe I'm being thick, but it's unclear to me from the above which one has the Alnicos, and also which one you consider as being superior. Could you please clarify? :)

Ta!

Marco.

i_should_coco
10-07-2009, 14:21
Pete,

Maybe I'm being thick, but it's unclear to me from the above which one has the Alnicos, and also which one you consider as being superior. Could you please clarify? :)

Ta!

Marco.

The Ltd. has the electromagnets....

Marco
10-07-2009, 14:30
Griffo,


Hearing two deck setups next to each other (and swapping the SUT/phono) I find it quite amazing how the Lyra Argo (not the i version but a new ESC retip so paraglide or whatever they call it :)) opens up the sound and lets the detail flood out.


I think the sort of language you use to describe what you like is probably the key. Maybe you're just more of a detail freak than me? I'd trade (absolute) detail retrieval in cartridges every time for realistic tone and timbre, with voices and instruments having what I consider as 'proper body' to them, and not the anaemic sounding presentation I hear from most modern cartridges in comparison to SPUs, 103s, M3Ds, when done well :)


I've heard the 103 in a couple of setups now and I'm still amazed that people like it, sorry but I just don't get why you would go to such lengths to get something like the 103 performing optimally when there's carts that can perform optimally so much easier.


LOL. I'm not interested in 'easy'! I'll do whatever it takes to get the sound I'm after!! As I've said many times before (and hopefully one day it will sink in ;)) the reason why the 103 needs so much 'pampering' to get right is because it's an old design living in a modern world - a square peg trying to fit into a round hole. You need to place it as closely as possible in its 'original world' to hear it as the manufacturer intended. One day when you hear it thus, chez-moi or somewhere else, you'll hopefully 'get' what I'm on about.


For me the sound you describe is what a lot of people refer to as the 'analogue sound' when they respond to me knowing I'm in to vinyl but I don't see that anymore. Carts like the Lyras has been able to take detail and show it to the listener and bring it with a clarity I haven't heard before at that price. It remnds of some of the good things CD does but still brings that organic feel to the music that makes so many of us love vinyl.


There are those words raising their heads again! :eyebrows:

I like vinyl to sound like vinyl and CD to sound like CD.

Marco.

Mr. C
10-07-2009, 14:30
Pete,
I suspect going from the psu to the batteries the most noticeable difference was the greatly reduced noise floor and sheer musicality increase Pete
How long do you get before the you notice a drop off in the sound due to the diminishing current from the batteries Pete?
I have heard one recently and was intrigued

Marco
10-07-2009, 14:32
The Ltd. has the electromagnets....

So that's the one you consider as being superior? Just to completely clarify things.

Marco.

i_should_coco
10-07-2009, 14:33
So that's the one you consider as being superior? Just to completely clarify things.

Marco.

Yep. :)


Pete,
I suspect going from the psu to the batteries the most noticeable difference was the greatly reduced noise floor and sheer musicality increase Pete
How long do you get before the you notice a drop off in the sound due to the diminishing current from the batteries Pete?
I have heard one recently and was intrigued

It's a 25Ah battery, so about 2 days. ;)

What did you think?

Marco
10-07-2009, 14:42
Yep.


Therefore this strongly suggests that the type of magnet used in the design of a cartridge has a significantly influential effect on its performance, which is basically what I've been saying about Alnicos :)

I do love Ios, and yours sounds rather special - they're one of the few 'modern' cartridges I could happily live with!

Marco.

i_should_coco
10-07-2009, 14:48
Therefore this strongly suggests that the type of magnet used in the design of a cartridge has a significantly influential effect on its performance, which is basically what I've been saying about Alnicos :)


I agree, the question is 'why'? On one hand I agree with Adam's statement above, that just making it from AlNiCo is not the whole story and the design would need to be optimised, but then the Ios, as far as I'm aware, are identical except for he magnet, yet sound very different.

Marco
10-07-2009, 15:06
I agree, Pete. It's much like what's been mentioned already - it's all about correct implementation and context.

You're no more likely to guarantee a great sound by sticking an Alnico magnet on an MC cartridge than you are (classic) TDA1541 chips inside a CDP or DAC...

*But* when done well, the results are superb, as you and I are quite obviously hearing with our respective equipment :cool:

Marco.

NRG
10-07-2009, 15:08
Just to point out the IO body is different to the Ltd and the LTD is double the weight...

Edit: the stylus is different as well according to the AN web site...

Mr. C
10-07-2009, 15:11
Pete,

To me it produced a very definitive drop in noise floor, which just gave everything a much more 'real' focus, much improved naturalness, greater insight into the music (from the Io's standpoint). Trying to quantize the traits like bigger/better this and that, do not come into the equation. It just became more real in an Io style verbaitum.
In short, I would liken it to placing an ultra clean and stable psu on a critical clock circuit within a high end cd player, a very marked improved right across the audio spectrum.
One comment that Mike P made earlier I would agree with whole heartedly 100%

"I guess if you "get' what these IO's are doing then nothing is going to come close. .
On the other hand, if you respond to what a Dynavector or Lyra does, then the AN and Kondo offerings are likely to disappoint. In short, there are no absolutes IME."

A very astute observation and one that rings true throughout the wonderful world of hifi

Marco
10-07-2009, 15:13
"I guess if you "get' what these IO's are doing then nothing is going to come close. .
On the other hand, if you respond to what a Dynavector or Lyra does, then the AN and Kondo offerings are likely to disappoint. In short, there are no absolutes IME."


Yep, spot on Tony. I'm definitely most firmly in the former camp, in terms of sonic presentation/tonality (although I haven't heard much Kondo to form a proper opinion)!

There is no 'right' or 'wrong' here; merely personal preference. It's about choosing trade-offs and what compromises you can live with best. There is no such thing as the 'perfect' cartridge, or the 'perfect' anything, for that matter.

Marco.

pure sound
10-07-2009, 15:30
Just to point out the IO body is different to the Ltd and the LTD is double the weight...

Edit: the stylus is different as well according to the AN web site...

The Gold has the same body as the Ltd and is the same weight. The diamond, stylus, coils & suspension are the same on both cartridges. The Gold has Alnico magnets & permendur yoke & pole pieces. The Ltd has a 2 part electromagnet with silver coils wound on Permendur formers. But essentially every part besides those in the magnetic circuit is the same. The Ltd has marginally lower output but sounds 10x better.

The cheaper Io1 has a lighter aluminium body, the same diamond, stylus, coils & suspension and Alnico magnets but soft iron (rather than Permendur) yoke & pole pieces.

I suppose these could be thought of as 'classic' cartridges having been originally conceived in the late 70's (the Ltd in 1983)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permendur

NRG
10-07-2009, 15:36
Ah! the Gold and LTD gotcha!

pure sound
10-07-2009, 15:59
There is also an IoII which is an Io1 with the heavy body afaict.

My 'Gold' was made with a copper body as an experiment. I think that works pretty well too.
http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh107/pure_sound/IoCopper.jpg

next time this needs a rebuild it'll return as a Ltd : )

Marco
10-07-2009, 16:24
LOL - I can feel a letter to Santa coming on... :eyebrows:

Going back briefly to Alnico magnets, could we compile between us a list of equipment that is known to use them, and see what the consensus of opinion is of the respective components?

I'll kick things off with the gear that I know of:

Cartridges: DL-103, Audio Note IO, Ortofon SPU and SL-15, Shure M3D, EMT TSD/XSD-15 (I think).

Speakers: Vintage Tannoy drive-units such as Blacks, Silvers, Reds and Golds. Altecs too, possibly, and Vitavox? Correct me if I'm wrong here.

In my opinion the above equipment, when properly partnered, is amongst the finest sounding available.

What other Alnico-equipped gear is out there?

Marco.

anthonyTD
10-07-2009, 17:29
LOL - I can feel a letter to Santa coming on... :eyebrows:

Going back briefly to Alnico magnets, could we compile between us a list of equipment that is known to use them, and see what the consensus of opinion is of the respective components?

I'll kick things off with the gear that I know of:

Cartridges: DL-103, Audio Note IO, Ortofon SPU and SL-15, Shure M3D, EMT TSD/XSD-15 (I think).

Speakers: Vintage Tannoy drive-units such as Blacks, Silvers, Reds and Golds. Altecs too, possibly, and Vitavox? Correct me if I'm wrong here.

In my opinion the above equipment, when properly partnered, is amongst the finest sounding available.

What other Alnico-equipped gear is out there?

Marco.

early lowther speaker drive units also used alnico magnets, do they sound diffrent, yes,,, although i have to say that all lowther drive units IMHO are an aquired taste!!!
anthony,TD...

Mr. C
10-07-2009, 17:43
early lowther speaker drive units also used alnico magnets, do they sound diffrent, yes,,, although i have to say that all lowther drive units IMHO are an aquired taste!!!
anthony,TD...

Absolutely in agreement Anthony, a very acquired taste :mental:

anthonyTD
10-07-2009, 17:46
guitar pick ups are another example, ie, even today some are alnico, some ceramic, depending on the musicians taste, and the type of guitar, although it is posible to make an alnico pick up sound like a ceramic and vice versa, it all depends on how good [knowledgeable] the pick up winder is.
anthony,TD...

Marco
10-07-2009, 17:47
early lowther speaker drive units also used alnico magnets, do they sound diffrent, yes,,, although i have to say that all lowther drive units IMHO are an aquired taste!!!


Indeed, Anthony, but we've also both heard some rather excellent Lowthers belonging to Steve (sps) at Scalford Hall in that huge big room, remember? :)

This system, funnily enough, also featured a Shure M3D (on an Fidelity Research/TD124 combo) ;)

Steve's system was voted one of the best sounding of the day, and I can understand why. It certainly played realistic sounding music through his very nice D.I.Y SET amps.

Undoubtedly, Lowthers can be somewhat 'fierce' sounding, but when implemented correctly (there's that word again!), they have a magic all of their own...

Marco.

SPS
10-07-2009, 18:08
I'm not quite sure i agree about the type of magnet..
its a fact that older speakers( as in well used) can sound better and smoother, the cone flex's more give an improved break up, and the suspension softens giving a lower fs

the alinco types of magnet where in common use from the late 30's to the early sixtys, when the ferrite magnets came into the frame

and by the end of the 60's low eff bass drivers where becoming the norm along with matching tweeters and mids

all my speakers use both alinco and ferrite, and both sound very well to me


the best of the pre 70's cone speakers was always high efficency, i believe cartridges where wound with less turns as the years have gone by.
and standards of quality have in real terms dropped.

a friend who owns and loves his yam ns1000's said to me this week that an early goodmans magnum was so close.. with more bass and a more life like mids, and more eff,

he uses good quality valve amps.

music in the main, is made up of resonaces and overtones from the instuments and voices
not alot of kit really reproduces these at an acceptable level, and with that, able to reproduce the 'sweet' music that is possibly on the source,
i'm not talking about any thing false just being able to hear the music.



i know what people mean about the real sound of music, it is dynamic and peaky, that why just about all recordings are compressed to some extent

and there are not many systems that i have heard that can play it in a realistic way

pure sound
10-07-2009, 18:19
Most speaker manufacturers until the mid 60's or so were making drive units with Alnico magnets as the cheaper ceramic magnets had not become available by then. So there are plenty of examples of fine sounding drivers from that era that are potentially capable of very good results. Wharfedale, Goodmans, Vitavox, JBL, Saba, Klangfilm, Tannoy, Westrex, Jensen, Celestion, Magnavox, Electro Voice & Altec all made good drivers and of course many of these still command high prices today. Currently manufacturers such as TAD are still making drivers using Alnico, as do Audio Note(UK) via SEAS, Supravox & Fertin in France, Ale & Goto in Japan and indeed Heco on the Statement model I sell.

Many guitarists still seek out alnico magnets for their speaker cabs to get a particular richness of tone.

Some enthusiasts still refer to the more commonly used ceramic types available now as 'mud' magnets!

i_should_coco
10-07-2009, 18:25
Just to point out the IO body is different to the Ltd and the LTD is double the weight...

Edit: the stylus is different as well according to the AN web site...

To the Io-1, yes. To the gold, no: There are 4 Ios:

Io-1: Normal compliance, Type 2 stylus, Alu body (light), AlNiCo Magnet, Iron pole-pieces.
Io-2: Low compliance, Type 1 stylus, Gunmetal body (heavy), AlNiCo Magnet, Iron pole-pieces.
Io-Gold: Low compliance, Type 1 stylus, Gunmetal body (heavy), AlNiCo Magnet, permendur pole-pieces.
Io-Ltd: Low compliance, Type 1 stylus, Gunmetal body (heavy), Electromagnet, Permendur pole-pieces.

Ah, I see Guy has already posted this info....

anthonyTD
10-07-2009, 18:53
Indeed, Anthony,
but we've also both heard some rather excellent Lowthers belonging to Steve (sps) at Scalford Hall in that huge big room, remember? :)

This system, funnily enough, also featured a Shure M3D (on an Fidelity Research/TD124 combo) ;)

Steve's system was voted one of the best sounding of the day, and I can understand why. It certainly played realistic sounding music through his very nice D.I.Y SET amps.

Undoubtedly, Lowthers can be somewhat 'fierce' sounding, but when implemented correctly (there's that word again!), they have a magic all of their own...

Marco.

hi marco,
i remember steve's system very well and his speakers,,, and yes the system he put together was very listenable, [in certain ways it was one of my favourites] but not soley because he was using lowthers, or a vintage cartridge, IMHO it was because of how he implemented those and the rest of the components in the chain.
steve did a very good job of bringing out the merits of each individual piece...
"i should coco's system was also very very good" but in a diffrent way to steve's.
A...

pure sound
10-07-2009, 18:57
To the Io-1, yes. To the gold, no: There are 4 Ios:

Io-1: Normal compliance, Type 2 stylus, Alu body (light), AlNiCo Magnet, Iron pole-pieces.
Io-2: Low compliance, Type 1 stylus, Gunmetal body (heavy), AlNiCo Magnet, Iron pole-pieces.
Io-Gold: Low compliance, Type 1 stylus, Gunmetal body (heavy), AlNiCo Magnet, permendur pole-pieces.
Io-Gold: Low compliance, Type 1 stylus, Gunmetal body (heavy), Electromagnet, Permendur pole-pieces.

Ah, I see Guy has already posted this info....

I've a feeling they may use the same tip on all of them now though I'd need to check this.

i_should_coco
10-07-2009, 21:30
The website's not really to be trusted - it says the Ltd. has Alnico magnets! :lol:

I finally finished the battery/charger supply.:)

i_should_coco
10-07-2009, 21:34
Absolutely in agreement Anthony, a very acquired taste :mental:

Like Focal? :ner:

Marco
10-07-2009, 23:07
:lolsign: :lol:

Marco
10-07-2009, 23:24
Many guitarists still seek out alnico magnets for their speaker cabs to get a particular richness of tone.


Guy, it's *precisely* because of this "richness of tone" that I like cartridges such as the DL-103. To my ears, this simply isn't on offer from most modern designs, which sound thin and tonally 'bleached' in comparison.

And before the Lyra, Ortofon or AT boys start, by "richness of tone" I don't mean warm, soft or woolly - just a sumptuous sense of depth and convincing harmonic structure which one relates to the sound of real voices and instruments.

Alnicos (and electro-magnets) rule!! :gig:

Marco.

NRG
11-07-2009, 00:02
Guy, it's *precisely* because of this "richness of tone" that I like cartridges such as the DL-103. To my ears, this simply isn't on offer from most modern designs, which sound thin and tonally 'bleached' in comparison.

And before the Lyra, Ortofon or AT boys start, by "richness of tone" I don't mean warm, soft or woolly - just a sumptuous sense of depth and convincing harmonic structure which one relates to the sound of real voices and instruments.

Alnicos (and electro-magnets) rule!! :gig:

Marco.

But I get that from my Ortofon KB and Rondo plus more! :eyebrows:

Marco
11-07-2009, 00:08
We'll have to do a comparison then, Neal. Bring your PL-71 or Lenco round, fitted with your KB or Rondo and we'll have a play :cool:

Marco.

NRG
11-07-2009, 00:25
You got it Marco! Should be fun. I've been getting on with the PL-71 this eve with the 103R and its good...very good especially since I've sorted out the PSU and phono cable...I plan to go to Owston later in the year so would be a good time to get together then...North Wales would be a bit too much of a stretch for me...

i_should_coco
11-07-2009, 06:23
It is about tone, yeah. The only compression driver I've heard that come close to the Vitavox S2 (which is astonishing) in terms of sheer tone is the TAD TD-2002. Now these drivers are 50 years apart and differ substantially in materials and construction, the only common characteristic they share is an AlNiCo magnet. Yet theyhave a similarity of tone. Coincidence? Probably. :)

The big brother of the 2002, the TD-4003 does not appear to share the same tonality - it's close, but doesn't quite reach the same depth. That uses a neodymium magnet.

The Grand Wazoo
11-07-2009, 08:25
Hi Folks,

I've been meaning to offer a few thoughts on this since the moment Alnico magnets were mentioned but thing have conspired against me!

Now I find I've been pipped by someone's post:


Many guitarists still seek out alnico magnets for their speaker cabs to get a particular richness of tone.

It's not just speakers that guitarists like to use alnico in, but also pickups.
I just wondered if this preference between old & new might lie somewhere in musical taste. For example, if you like a certain type of rock music from a certain age, you'll be addicted to the sound of alnico because it was used in all the classic guitars & speakers that your favoured musicians preferred.

For example:
Celestion alnico speakers were used in Vox & Marshall gear.
Fane alnico speakers were a fixture in Hiwatt and Orange cabs in the late '60s and early '70s.
Jensen alnicos went into vintage Fender amps.

The guitars all had pickups made with alnico too, so the effect that it had on the sound is completely and deeply ingrained, both in the music & in our brains.

Think of the bands who used this gear!

Nowadays some people are going to extraordinary lengths to recreate the tone (that word again) of this classic gear. Read this taken from the Seymour Duncan website:

http://www.seymourduncan.com/products/antiquity/

Antiquity™: The '50s Series
The '50s marked the birth of rock 'n' roll and Antiquity pickups capture the tone of the era. Each Antiquity pickup is hand-crafted in Santa Barbara from the same materials and the same production techniques as the originals. I hand wind each single coil pickup using a "scatter wind" process that captures the original winding patterns in a way no machine can duplicate. The bobbins are carefully aged and impregnated with fine dust particles, the Alnico II magnets are ever-so-slightly demagnetized, and the wire and insulation are treated to duplicate the tempering of years of use. Of course, all of this is done in order to accurately replicate that unmistakable vintage tone of the early pickups in a way that could never be done with a mass production process.

Not only are they trying to replicate old models, but they want them to sound like the old ones did when they were about 10 years old - hence the dusty wire and the demagnetising process!!

Marco
11-07-2009, 09:58
Awesome, Chris, and most interesting! :smoking:


Of course, all of this is done in order to accurately replicate that unmistakable vintage tone of the early pickups in a way that could never be done with a mass production process.


...which is *precisely* why I use DL-103s, M3Ds, SUTs as opposed to active MC stages, classic CDPs & DACs, valve pre/power amps, and vintage Tannoys.

Like I've said many times in this thread and elsewhere, it's all about tone and timbre - it is precisely a lack of "richness of tone" that most modern equipment suffers from. I'm not just talking about cartridges here, but right the way across the board from sources to speakers.

*However*, with all this talk about "richness of tone", there is one very important thing to bear in mind, and it is this:

When I'm discussing "richness of tone", I don't mean it in terms of imbuing the sound with romantic coloration to create some cosy, rose-tinted, fluffy rendition of recorded music that I can wallow in whilst admiring my pipe and slippers - no siree - I'm talking about the difference between instruments and voices sounding 'real', with proper depth and 'body' to them, and an anaemic 'processed' sounding cardboard cut-out of such in comparison.

Let me put it another way and introduce an alternative form of terminology to the discussion: 'FLAVOUR'. Well-designed, properly engineered and 'sorted' vintage equipment, such as has been mentioned on this thread, has more 'flavour' than most modern equipment I've heard - but, in the right way.

It's rather like the difference between growing your own fruit, and picking an apple straight from the tree and eating it, sampling how it tastes, and savouring the depth and intensity of flavour it has compared to the tasteless ones (in comparison) you buy in a supermarket - and so consequently the supermarket apple is less 'real'. It lacks flavour compared to one straight from the tree; in effect, something has been lost in the process between nature creating the apple and us eating it.

This for me is very similar to when comparing the best vintage equipment to its modern counterpart; just as the supermarket apple has lost a significant percentage of its 'goodness' and flavour, and therefore it has become less 'real' than it was originally when picked and eaten from the tree, so is music less 'real' when reproduced on many types of modern equipment...

Something has been lost in the design, component selection/implementation, and voicing process by the manufacturer, and that 'something', my friends, is natural flavour, which manifests itself as the 'vintage tone' we've been discussing. And it cannot easily be measured. This 'flavour', in my opinion, is fundamental to how real voices and instruments sound when heard, un-amplified, live. Without it, we're only hearing a watered-down version of the music, which lacks the depth and intensity of 'flavour' of the real thing.

In terms of my own system and choice of components, as in all the best recipes (I see assembling a musically satisfying hi-fi system as essentially a 'recipe') I seek to bring out the most natural 'flavour' from the music. I feel it's no coincidence that the best systems I've heard mix and match old and new technologies, simply because neither single approach gets is absolutely right. Getting the most natural 'flavour' from music is thus best served by cherry-picking the highest quality vintage gear and mixing it with a soupçon of carefully selected modern kit to stand the best chance of obtaining this fundamental 'flavour'. This is not coloration: it's the difference between real and processed. When listening to music, I want to taste the 'real', richly flavoured, 'organic' apple - not the watery flavoured second-class citizen from the supermarket...

Marco.

Mr. C
11-07-2009, 10:27
Like Focal? :ner:

Hi Pete,

Yes indeed, for those who wish to experience music in a real way, though absolutely not for everyone I would agree.
Flavors again Pete
Though I did find this lurking 'Mr C's room also sounded good, and he was using Focals!'
We you hung over by any chance :eyebrows:

DaveK
11-07-2009, 10:44
Hi Guys,
Just to add my two penn'orth: -
As Marco so rightly says, this trend does not just apply to hi-fi, it applies to many aspects of modern life and modern products. One of the few things that Sue and I disagree about (and 'always' have done, but no violence involved :lolsign: ), is 'Form' versus 'Function' as I term it.
By and large I care more about the 'performance' of almost anything (function) rather than what it looks like (form), whereas Sue's priority, by and large, is what it looks like.
So, loads of 'black boxes' and speakers reaching from floor to ceiling wouldn't concern me if it gave me audio Nirvana, whereas Sue would prefer no 'black boxes' or speakers, and music which came out of the ether and sounds like it emanated from a single £5 computer stereo speaker. Apart from that we get on fine !!
Cheers,

Marco
11-07-2009, 12:19
You got it Marco! Should be fun. I've been getting on with the PL-71 this eve with the 103R and its good...very good especially since I've sorted out the PSU and phono cable...I plan to go to Owston later in the year so would be a good time to get together then...North Wales would be a bit too much of a stretch for me...

Sounds good, Neil. We can certainly have a play at Owston, but if you can't make it to mine, I'd like to hear your PL-71 in its home environment where you've optimised it, to get a proper handle on what all the fuss is about with this particular vintage T/T.

So would you be up for me coming down with the Techy and us having our own little mini bake-off? :cool:

Marco.

P.S I wonder what's happened to Adam? I thought he'd have returned by now to teach me the error of my ways! :scratch:

DaveK
11-07-2009, 15:22
Hi Guys,
If this Owston get-together is open to all, for the benefit of the unitiated can someone advise which Owston is it happening at - there is one near Doncaster and one in Leicestershire.
Thanks in anticipation,

anthonyTD
11-07-2009, 17:31
guitar pick ups are another example, ie, even today some are alnico, some ceramic, depending on the musicians taste, and the type of guitar, although it is posible to make an alnico pick up sound like a ceramic and vice versa, it all depends on how good [knowledgeable] the pick up winder is.
anthony,TD...
;)

SPS
11-07-2009, 17:51
Hi Guys,
If this Owston get-together is open to all, for the benefit of the unitiated can someone advise which Owston is it happening at - there is one near Doncaster and one in Leicestershire.
Thanks in anticipation,

donny... its us audio talk lot again...

DaveK
11-07-2009, 18:32
Thanks SPS, :)
I intended to go to whichever it was but now I might now even walk there! ;)
Well, perhaps not.
See you there.

i_should_coco
11-07-2009, 21:50
Hi Pete,

Yes indeed, for those who wish to experience music in a real way, though absolutely not for everyone I would agree.
Flavors again Pete
Though I did find this lurking 'Mr C's room also sounded good, and he was using Focals!'
We you hung over by any chance :eyebrows:

Just teasing, matey. :) Your stuff did indeed sound great at Heathrow!

Marco
11-07-2009, 21:59
Hi Pete,

Could you do me a big favour, matey?

I'd be obliged if you would post a little review of your T/T bake-off at RD's (by starting a separate thread), as this is of significant interest to people here, too. It doesn't matter if it's simply a cut & paste job from what you wrote on pfm, or you can add other bits in if you wish.

Cheers, dude! :cool:

Marco.

i_should_coco
11-07-2009, 22:03
Done! See here:

http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?p=53754#post53754

Marco
11-07-2009, 22:07
Cheers, Pete. Much appreciated! I'll get to that later - just off to listen to some choons :gig:

Marco.

Beobloke
13-07-2009, 11:31
P.S I wonder what's happened to Adam? I thought he'd have returned by now to teach me the error of my ways! :scratch:

Adam's busy reviewing turntables for the next issue of HFW! :)

Marco
13-07-2009, 11:33
LOL. Good to see you back.

Are they boring ones with belts in, or 'proper' T/Ts? :eyebrows:

;)

Marco.

griffo104
13-07-2009, 13:00
LOL. Good to see you back.

Are they boring ones with belts in, or 'proper' T/Ts? :eyebrows:

;)

Marco.

Proper turntables have belts :ner:

Marco
13-07-2009, 14:24
Hehehehe... Aye, of course they do! :lol:

Marco.

SPS
13-07-2009, 14:32
Proper turntables have belts :ner:

of course they do..

well may be just the better ones ...

Marco
13-07-2009, 14:35
Yes, but the belt in yours is mainly just for 'decoration' ;)

Marco.

SPS
13-07-2009, 16:07
Yes, but the belt in yours is mainly just for 'decoration' ;)

Marco.

decoration eh... without it does not spin very fast..

cheers

Marco
13-07-2009, 16:24
Indeed. But without the idler mechanism it would be, as we say in Glasgow, PISH! :lol:

;)

Marco.

Barry
13-07-2009, 19:06
So, the Thorens 124 - the best of both worlds or the worse? Discuss! :)

SPS
13-07-2009, 21:48
So, the Thorens 124 - the best of both worlds or the worse? Discuss! :)

well the belt runs very fast and the idler does the low speed stuff

i have quite a few decks, inc oracal delphi/lp12/ 401/301.lenco's and quite a few more,, had it next to marco's
and quite a few other good decks...
...i'm keeping it as my main deck...
i sold the first one i owned about 10 years ago and regretted it after a week or so..

Barry
13-07-2009, 22:09
well the belt runs very fast and the idler does the low speed stuff

i have quite a few decks, inc oracal delphi/lp12/ 401/301.lenco's and quite a few more,, had it next to marco's
and quite a few other good decks...
...i'm keeping it as my main deck...
i sold the first one i owned about 10 years ago and regretted it after a week or so..

Not quite the answer I was expecting! I think I understand the pros and cons of direct drive, belt drive and rim or idler drive, but a mixture of two techniques?

Coincidentially all the tuntables I have used, from the humble Garrard SP25 and Collaro 2020, through to the EMT930 have used a rim drive. I happen to use three Thorens TD124/II decks. These also use idler wheel drive, but have a belt between the motor and the stepped speed change pulley. I cannot, as yet, make up my mind if the use of a belt confers any advantage.

SPS
14-07-2009, 08:31
Not quite the answer I was expecting! I think I understand the pros and cons of direct drive, belt drive and rim or idler drive, but a mixture of two techniques?

Coincidentially all the tuntables I have used, from the humble Garrard SP25 and Collaro 2020, through to the EMT930 have used a rim drive. I happen to use three Thorens TD124/II decks. These also use idler wheel drive, but have a belt between the motor and the stepped speed change pulley. I cannot, as yet, make up my mind if the use of a belt confers any advantage.

sorry Barrie, i dodn't realise you are well versed in 124's,
i judge the deck by its overall sound, the fact that the belt runs faster than a normal belt drive deck impaires some advantages in its operation over belt drive only..
but its the sum of parts that makes the deck..

what can i say.. i like the sound.. till i hear something better..?

Mr. C
14-07-2009, 08:46
Sorry to this obvious here,
however the original question have you come to any conclusions at yet guys?

Barry
14-07-2009, 09:17
Sorry Barry, I didn't realise you are well versed in 124's,
I judge the deck by its overall sound, the fact that the belt runs faster than a normal belt drive deck impaires some advantages in its operation over belt drive only..
but its the sum of parts that makes the deck..

what can I say.. I like the sound.. till I hear something better..?

Thanks SPS. I hadn't thought about the relative speed of the belt in the 124, compare with those of conventional belt drive designs. Critics of belt drives complain of the lack of torque a belt can transmit, wouldn't the same criticism apply to the 124?

Regarding the 'sound' of the 124, the only comparison I have made is with an EMT930 and a Linn Sondek. Comparison with the Linn was made many years ago, when a friend of mine left his gear with me whilst he was working in Nigeria on contract. I was (and still am) using the Thorens and was able to compare the two. I did notice some small differences, but nothing like the 'chalk and cheese' contrast that Linn would have had you believe at the time. I saw, or heard, no reason at all why I should replace my Thorens, so didn't. In fact I have gone in the opposite direction and acquired two more!

hifi_dave
14-07-2009, 10:11
The belt drives an idler which in turn, drives the platter. So it's a bit of both principles. The idea being that the motor noise is not transmitted directly to the platter.

DSJR
14-07-2009, 12:53
The 124 belt is also not very flexible and is wide, so most of the motor torque is properly transmitted to the idler pulley. It was a broadcast grade deck designed in the fifties for 5-10 gramme tracking forces, so no worries about loss of torque, unless the drive has seized up with age and dry lubrication. IIRC (subject to a rummage around in HiFi dave's mag archives ;)), the two phase drive spread the driven noise around rather than a major 50Hz/100Hz drone that can afflict 301's and 401's. vertically driven Lenco's transmitt their drive noise out of phase, so are perfect for mono and 78's...

SPS
14-07-2009, 19:25
Sorry to this obvious here,
however the original question have you come to any conclusions at yet guys?

well my mind is made up.. mine replaced the delphi, which was in regular use
i think it has a more 'solid' sound, level of bass are identical with same arm and cart.. yet the thorens seem more balanced in my view whilst the delphi has a very slightly lighter sound..
also the bass levels are identical to the best 401/301 i have heard dispite the hype around 301/401 in this department, and seemingly without the need for fancy heavy plinths..


Thanks SPS. I hadn't thought about the relative speed of the belt in the 124, compare with those of conventional belt drive designs. Critics of belt drives complain of the lack of torque a belt can transmit, wouldn't the same criticism apply to the 124?

well as an engineer my understanding is that a heavier belt run a high speed is less likely to 'give' than a light belt run at low speed, the speed is important, as i belive the effects of torque on the belt is less at higher speeds as it is diluted.. dont know if that makes sense..?

well that's my view..


cheers
steve

Spectral Morn
14-07-2009, 19:39
well my mind is made up.. mine replaced the delphi, which was in regular use
i think it has a more 'solid' sound, level of bass are identical with same arm and cart.. yet the thorens seem more balanced in my view whilst the delphi has a very slightly lighter sound..
also the bass levels are identical to the best 401/301 i have heard dispite the hype around 301/401 in this department, and seemingly without the need for fancy heavy plinths..



well as an engineer my understanding is that a heavier belt run a high speed is less likely to 'give' than a light belt run at low speed, the speed is important, as i belive the effects of torque on the belt is less at higher speeds as it is diluted.. dont know if that makes sense..?

well that's my view..


cheers
steve

Hi Steve

Which version of the oracle Delphi did you have ?

The Mk1,2 and 3 were certainly a bit delicate ("slightly lighter sound") as was the Mk4 unless you put the Turbo PSU on it and a SME 4 or 5 arm. I ran mine with an Eminent technology mk2 arm and VDH 10 cart but using a SME 5 arm adds a lot more weight and scale to things. I must say however that I quite like the delicateness of the Oracle mk4 presentation. As the models changed each version had more weight and scale and no doubt the newish Mk5 has taken a further step up the weight and scale ladder. There is IMHO a magic to the sound/presentation that I love and I would not ever part with mine.

I haven't heard a Garrard 301, 401 or a Thorens so I don't know how they differ to the Oracle sound wise, but in the looks department (I know audio Jewelery :doh:;)) the Oracle Delphi Mk4 is the IMHO best looking TT ever.



Regards D S D L

Barry
14-07-2009, 20:38
Hello Dave (hifi_dave)


The belt drives an idler which in turn, drives the platter. So it's a bit of both principles. The idea being that the motor noise is not transmitted directly to the platter.
Yes, I understand that - it's the question of torque transfer via a belt that concerns me. :scratch:

Hello Dave (DSJR)


The 124 belt is also not very flexible and is wide, so most of the motor torque is properly transmitted to the idler pulley. It was a broadcast grade deck designed in the fifties for 5-10 gramme tracking forces, so no worries about loss of torque, unless the drive has seized up with age and dry lubrication. IIRC (subject to a rummage around in HiFi dave's mag archives ), the two phase drive spread the driven noise around rather than a major 50Hz/100Hz drone that can afflict 301's and 401's. vertically driven Lenco's transmit their drive noise out of phase, so are perfect for mono and 78's...
The belt does not seem to be any less flexible or wider than that used on the much maligned Linn LP12. I would imagine that the greatest transmission of torque would be via a toothed belt - has anybody used this? Are there good reasons why not? :confused:

I have used all my decks (with the exception of the Garrard SP25) with cartridges tracking between 1.5 - 3.0g.

It was only the Papst motor, fitted to the very last TD124/IIs, that was a two-phase design. Would tend to agree with you about the 'spreading' of motor noise. The motor on the EMT 927 and 930 turntables are massive three-phase designs.

Hello Steve,

well as an engineer my understanding is that a heavier belt run a high speed is less likely to 'give' than a light belt run at low speed, the speed is important, as I believe the effects of torque on the belt is less at higher speeds as it is diluted.. don't know if that makes sense..?

well that's my view..
I'm not a mechanical engineer, so I cannot really comment, but your arguments are plausable. However, that said, the belt used in the 124 seems to be no heavier than that used in the LP12. In fact, being of a similar width and thickness but much shorter than the LP12 belt, the belt used in the 124 ought to be lighter. :confused:

Thanks Guys for all your replies. Apologies if I'm coming across as a stubborn cuss, it's just that I have puzzled about the belt/idler combination of the 124 for about 36 years (that's when I bought my first)! :)

Oh and yes Neil, I would agree with you that the Oracle range of TTs are lovely to behold. I do, however, think that the lines of the die-cast chassis of the TD124 are equally beautiful - in a classic way of course! :smoking:

Finally apologies to Marco for the hi-jacking of his thread. :doh:

Regards

SPS
14-07-2009, 20:50
Hi Steve

Which version of the oracle Delphi did you have ?

The Mk1,2 and 3 were certainly a bit delicate ("slightly lighter sound") as was the Mk4 unless you put the Turbo PSU on it and a SME 4 or 5 arm. I ran mine with an Eminent technology mk2 arm and VDH 10 cart but using a SME 5 arm adds a lot more weight and scale to things. I must say however that I quite like the delicateness of the Oracle mk4 presentation. As the models changed each version had more weight and scale and no doubt the newish Mk5 has taken a further step up the weight and scale ladder. There is IMHO a magic to the sound/presentation that I love and I would not ever part with mine.

I haven't heard a Garrard 301, 401 or a Thorens so I don't know how they differ to the Oracle sound wise, but in the looks department (I know audio Jewelery :doh:;)) the Oracle Delphi Mk4 is the IMHO best looking TT ever.



Regards D S D L

mines the mk 2,
the sound as always its a matter of opinion, and that is dictated by the rest of your replay system and our own tastes..

Marco
14-07-2009, 20:53
Finally apologies to Marco for the hi-jacking of his thread :doh:


No, no we don't mind a bit of thread drift here on AOS :eyebrows:

Marco.