View Full Version : How many more?
Gordon Steadman
19-01-2014, 15:50
I suppose its inevitable, that the more we buy second hand equipment, the more we are likely to re-assess stuff that had good, bad or indifferent reviews in the past.
I am still a valve man but have been really impressed with many of the Japanese amps from the 70's that were written off by the press at the time.
It makes you wonder if the whole industry was driven by reviews of 'new' and 'better' and devil take the hindmost. Macca's latest acquisition for instance..... AKAI speakers for god's sake:eek: Wrong shape, wrong bits inside and especially, wrong name on the outside.
I bought the Pioneer PL112D in order to butcher it and have ended up keeping it. OK its not the last word and doesn't compete with my main deck but its very good considering its price point.
It came with a Shure M75ED with a new stylus in the box. I have been transferring some of my older LPs to digits and have been surprised at just how good this cartridge is. Very clean, good crisp and DEEP bass and very enjoyable indeed. I remember them being criticised for being 'sharp' and 'unmusical' at the time and like the rest of the sheep, I swapped mine for a Nagaoka MP11 which was the budget fave at the time.
Listening again, I reckon it was in the wrong direction. The strange thing is that I find the balance almost exactly the same as CD.
I wonder if there would have been a market for hi-fi at all, if it hadn't been driven by those 'golden eared' (sorry Marco) reviewers whose opinions were treated like tablets of stone.
How many great products have been pushed into the rubbish bins of history for no good reason but the continuing profits of a small group of manufacturers??? One does wonder what might have changed hands:rolleyes:
walpurgis
19-01-2014, 17:46
I may be wrong Gordon, but I reckon the reason much older gear, seventies Japanese in particular, is viewed in a new light, is largely due to cables. In the sixties and seventies, probably all cables, interconnects ands speaker leads too, were crap to be honest and just stifled the ability of equipment.
Hearing equipment of that age using modern cabling has released the potential that was just not heard back then.
Not long ago, I tried a humble early seventies Trio KA-1000A integrated in my system and was astonished to hear a sound not dissimliar to a Sudgen A21. It sounded lovely driving my Tannoys. I remember using and dismissing this amp when it was in production. I've had similar results with a Rotel RA-611, very nice. It makes you wonder for instance, what the superb older Luxman amplifiers would sound like in a modern context.
Having spent some time comparing my Koetsu Urushi to my Shure 97ex (£4,000 verses £70) I can only agree with the premise of this thread.
Gordon Steadman
19-01-2014, 19:25
I may be wrong Gordon, but I reckon the reason much older gear, seventies Japanese in particular, is viewed in a new light, is largely due to cables. In the sixties and seventies, probably all cables, interconnects ands speaker leads too, were crap to be honest and just stifled the ability of equipment.
Hearing equipment of that age using modern cabling has released the potential that was just not heard back then.
Not long ago, I tried a humble early seventies Trio KA-1000A integrated in my system and was astonished to hear a sound not dissimliar to a Sudgen A21. It sounded lovely driving my Tannoys. I remember using and dismissing this amp when it was in production. I've had similar results with a Rotel RA-611, very nice. It makes you wonder for instance, what the superb older Luxman amplifiers would sound like in a modern context.
But surely, that would have applied to the stuff that was considered so much better as well - mostly British companies as I recall.
I agree with you about the Rotel. My nephew still uses mine on his computer system and it sounds very sweet indeed.
I don't think it is as simple as cables. I think the vintage stuff you can buy today is the good stuff because yhe dross is long since in landfill. Why shouldn"t thirty or forty year old amp or speakers be as good or better than some modern stuff. You can't re invent the wheel.
Gordon Steadman
19-01-2014, 19:55
I am just listening to The Rite of Spring by Karajan and the Berlin Phil that I recorded earlier with the Shure and I am dancing. Fantastic stuff that is causing a shiver down my back. The cartridge is seriously interesting, so much attack that I jumped out of my chair at the first set of 'Indian dances'.
I'm going to try this in the Rega RB300. Heaven forbid that it might match the Technics:eek:
Gordon Steadman
19-01-2014, 19:56
I don't think it is as simple as cables. I think the vintage stuff you can buy today is the good stuff because yhe dross is long since in landfill. Why shouldn"t thirty or forty year old amp or speakers be as good or better than some modern stuff. You can't re invent the wheel.
Some would say progress is inevitable:)
Audio Al
19-01-2014, 20:07
From the days when audio was made to a standard and not a price
I love 60/70's Hi Fi :)
walpurgis
19-01-2014, 20:13
I don't think it is as simple as cables. I think the vintage stuff you can buy today is the good stuff because the dross is long since in landfill. Why shouldn"t thirty or forty year old amp or speakers be as good or better than some modern stuff. You can't re invent the wheel.
As for "dross", you can still get seventies Amstrad amps in apparently functioning condition and I don't actually recall any badly made or unreliable Japanese amplifiers at all and I've tried loads. Some of the Jap cassette decks were a bit iffy, but then so were most others.
The Rotel RA-611 was one of my first decent amps back about 1973. It replaced a Ferrograph F307 and was a big improvement in every way. It was used with a Thorens TD150/Decca international arm/Decca Blue, feeding a pair of Tannoy IIILZ speakers and it all sounded pretty good. I've had a couple of 611s since and the last one I tried was a couple of years ago. It is now with a friend of mine, who is happy with it.
I suppose it is also a question of personal taste. Some folk don't like big tannoys for example. They would rather have a more 'modern' sound, for want of a better word. I am sure not everyone would be as keen on my Akais as I am. It is noticeable on this forum especially how many people are using vintage kit, particularly speakers. Although you could argue that speakers are the one component that has got more expensive to produce to a high quality.
Gordon Steadman
19-01-2014, 20:30
I am just listening to The Rite of Spring by Karajan and the Berlin Phil that I recorded earlier with the Shure and I am dancing. Fantastic stuff that is causing a shiver down my back. The cartridge is seriously interesting, so much attack that I jumped out of my chair at the first set of 'Indian dances'.
I'm going to try this in the Rega RB300. Heaven forbid that it might match the Technics:eek:
Christ.....I'm exhausted. Karajan is always good at 'drive' but that was astonishing. Its a long time since my flabber has been so ghasted. I need a drink:cool:
Its obviously doing it for you then Gordon :) I was listening to one of my favourited earlier - nothing you would have heard of ;) - and got that same buzz from it. It's the whole point of it after all.
Oldpinkman
20-01-2014, 15:57
We are planning our route sarf this summer, and it includes your neck of the woods. I'll put a proper amplifier in the boot! ;)
I wonder if there would have been a market for hi-fi at all, if it hadn't been driven by those 'golden eared' (sorry Marco) reviewers whose opinions were treated like tablets of stone.
Lol... Don't put me into that category! I'm just a big daftee who likes what he likes, and tells other folk about it, in the off chance that they might like it, too :)
Marco.
I think that there has been a resurgence of classic hifi born of several things: education...the interweb has allowed folk to brush up on the great kit of yesteryear and sites such as fleabay give a direct access to that market; sound quality: as has been said, good kit of the 60's and 70's is still good kit today (Radford, Leak, Tannoy, Quad, Garrard...the list goes on) and the final reason is cost. There are still some gems available for great money, especially speakers, and pound for pound, they can provide exceptional value if chosen carefully. There is a flip side and that is due to popularity and demand, prices can get silly and glasses can become overly rose-tinted. Monitor golds selling for £1800 per pair is an example as are some of the used prices for Garrards. What I wouldn't give to stumble across a lovely big pair of JBLs in a junk shop somewhere though!
Monitor golds selling for £1800 per pair is an example...
Lol... We've had this conversation before, Paul. How much do you think a pair of 15" Monitor Golds would cost to produce today? These are very specialised designs, requiring highly skilled engineering. I'd hazard a guess that it'd be a damn sight more than £1800.
How much do Tannoy charge for their modern equivalents - let's say, the 15" drive units found inside a pair of Canterbury SEs (which, IMO, are not superior, merely different from MGs)? Fancy phoning up Tannoy and asking them that question? I bet you'd get a shock!! ;)
The bottom line is not how much a pair of 15" MGs cost to buy, as drive units only, but rather what type of completed speakers you can produce from using them, and crucially, how those perform against modern equivalents, with the same final price tag (or a more expensive one), once suitable crossovers and cabinets have been utilised.
Therefore, if a pair of £5500 speakers (with 15" MGs inside) outperforms a pair of modern speakers costing £10k, or more, (I've heard it happen), then the £1800 you paid for the MG drive units was a bargain (sonically), which is all that matters. Simples!!!
:exactly:
Marco.
Gordon Steadman
20-01-2014, 16:47
We are planning our route sarf this summer, and it includes your neck of the woods. I'll put a proper amplifier in the boot! ;)
Mind the valves don't break on those nasty rough French roads:eyebrows:
Gordon Steadman
20-01-2014, 16:48
Lol... Don't put me into that category! I'm just a big daftee who likes what he likes, and tells other folk about it, in the off chance that they might like it, too :)
Marco.
I didn't know you were a reviewer in the 70s, which magazine??:lol: My aim was elsewhere on this occasion, maybe next time?
(You told me off for using the expression previously - thus the apology)
julesd68
20-01-2014, 16:51
I was meeting mrsjulesd68 near Tottenham Court Road today so took a few minutes to have a look in the windows of one of the few 'hi-fi' shops left.
Now I wasn't looking at expensive gear I admit - around the £300 mark - but on some of the amps the entire fascia and every switch appeared to be made of plastic. And not good plastic. Shiny, cheap and horrible plastic. Very surprised to see one of the latest Denon amps as one of the worst offenders here. I saw some 'retro' styled Yamaha units which looked slightly better built but all the switches still looked on the flimsy side. Rotel looked ok. Maybe some of them sound amazing at the price, I don't know, but I hope they give good guarantees ... The only stuff that looked reasonably solid in my eyes was the Marantz gear which had a bit of quality about it.
I didn't know you were a reviewer in the 70s, which magazine??:lol: My aim was elsewhere on this occasion, maybe next time?
(You told me off for using the expression previously - thus the apology)
Indeed, and I don't have "golden ears" either! ;)
Marco.
I was meeting mrsjulesd68 near Tottenham Court Road today so took a few minutes to have a look in the windows of one of the few 'hi-fi' shops left.
Now I wasn't looking at expensive gear I admit - around the £300 mark - but on some of the amps the entire fascia and every switch appeared to be made of plastic. And not good plastic. Shiny, cheap and horrible plastic. Very surprised to see one of the latest Denon amps as one of the worst offenders here. I saw some 'retro' styled Yamaha units which looked slightly better built but all the switches still looked on the flimsy side. Rotel looked ok. Maybe some of them sound amazing at the price, I don't know, but I hope they give good guarantees ... The only stuff that looked reasonably solid in my eyes was the Marantz gear which had a bit of quality about it.
I agree. Their casework is pretty sold and to be fair, the quality of the internals on the newer one's I've seen has been good too. I just haven't been convinced by the sound quality of the budget-end stuff they do; it is nicely screwed together though.
From the days when audio was made to a standard and not a price
I love 60/70's Hi Fi :)
Hmm... I love 80s/90s Hifi ! I think there were more items built to a standard rather than price by the time the more affluent 80s came around.. but you probably got more value for money back in the 60s/70s
Lol... We've had this conversation before, Paul. How much do you think a pair of 15" Monitor Golds would cost to produce today? These are very specialised designs, requiring highly skilled engineering. I'd hazard a guess that it'd be a damn sight more than £1800.
How much do Tannoy charge for their modern equivalents - let's say, the 15" drive units found inside a pair of Canterbury SEs (which, IMO, are not superior, merely different from MGs)? Fancy phoning up Tannoy and asking them that question? I bet you'd get a shock!! ;)
The bottom line is not how much a pair of 15" MGs cost to buy, as drive units only, but rather what type of completed speakers you can produce from using them, and crucially, how those perform against modern equivalents, with the same final price tag (or a more expensive one), once suitable crossovers and cabinets have been utilised.
Therefore, if a pair of £5500 speakers (with 15" MGs inside) outperforms a pair of modern speakers costing £10k, or more, (I've heard it happen), then the £1800 you paid for the MG drive units was a bargain (sonically), which is all that matters. Simples!!!
:exactly:
Marco.
Which is fine logically... but what you've then done is talked up the price costing yourself much more than need be!
People were really enjoying the sound of Monitor golds bought for peanuts back in the day. It is the sound per pound crowd of dealers and part-time dealers (ebay sellers I guess) who then demand high pricing and then people, as is human nature, enjoy paying more because they're good and all logically reasoned in to convincing themselves as to why they SHOULD pay more..
People are daft... people should have just looked at what they could be picked up for in Loot and refused to pay the high prices. Ebay is to blame with all the emotional bidding.
Sure, Nat.
However, the bottom line is that even at £1800 (and I've seen some go for rather more than that), sonically, they're a bargain. My Lockwood Majors (with 15" MGs and upgraded crossovers) cost me around £5.5k in total, and I've yet to hear a modern pair of speakers, at any price, I'd swap them for!
I’ve heard five and six-figure speakers that I consider to be sonically and musically inferior to my Lockwoods (including Tannoy's current flagship models), and I'm far from alone in that view...
You say that Monitor Golds were "bought for peanuts", back in the day. That rather surprises me, as they were always high-quality items. So how much did they cost in the late 1960s, and what does that figure equate to in today's money?
I think if we're going to cite examples of vastly overpriced vintage gear, there are far more deserving candidates, such as LS3/5As and most Quad gear! :eek:
...Or instead we could pick on some of the obscenely overpriced 'badge-fi' produced today, posing as 'high-end audio equipment', which unlike Monitor Golds (or the best Quad gear), *is* a sonic rip-off ;)
Marco.
Gordon Steadman
20-01-2014, 20:31
I think if we're going to cite examples of vastly overpriced vintage gear, there are far more deserving candidates, such as most Quad gear! :eek:
Marco.
'ere you...just watch what you is disparaging:ner:
walpurgis
20-01-2014, 20:52
'Proper' Tannoys were never cheap new and were always regarded as a prestige range of speakers. Through the existence of the Golds and HPDs they made no other domestic speakers than the pepperpot dual monitors (don't mention the Audiometric, they sold hardly any). However, it is only relatively recently that prices for such models have rocketed. Ten to fifteen years ago a pair of Berkleys for instance could be bought for maybe £250 and perhaps £450 to £500 for 15" Lancasters. How things have changed, although to be honest, I think today's values only reflect the real worth of such Tannoys in sound terms. After all, what else could you buy (and enjoy) that sounds as good for the money? I think mine sound incredible and can't envisage anything I'd rather own and yes, I have heard some of the best (other) speakers in the world.
How things have changed, although to be honest, I think today's values only reflect the real worth of such Tannoys in sound terms. After all, what else could you buy (and enjoy) that sounds as good for the money? I think mine sound incredible and can't envisage anything I'd rather own and yes, I have heard some of the best (other) speakers in the world.
+1 with bells on, mate...
I don't think today's buyers of vintage Tannoys are afflicted with dewy-eyed nostalgia; the initiated pay top dollar for the best models simply because they know how special they sound! The same can be said of buyers of Altec, Vitavox, BTH, and oh, JBLs....
qArzARmoRG0
Kenrick Sound: the stuff of wet dreams....... :drool:
Marco.
Ten to fifteen years ago a pair of Berkleys for instance could be bought for maybe £250 and perhaps £450 to £500 for 15" Lancasters.
Any idea, Geoff (or anyone else) how much a pair of 15" Monitor Golds sold for new 'back in the day', just before they were discontinued?
Marco.
PaulStewart
20-01-2014, 21:29
However, the bottom line is that even at £1800 (and I've seen some go for rather more than that), sonically, they're a bargain. My Lockwood Majors (with 15" MGs and upgraded crossovers) cost me around £5.5k in total, and I've yet to hear a modern pair of speakers, at any price, I'd swap them for!
You say that Monitor Golds were "bought for peanuts", back in the day. That rather surprises me, as they were always high-quality items. So how much did they cost in the late 1960s, and what does that figure equate to in today's money?
Err, unless you were really lucky, (I paid £400.00 for my 12" MGs in the Lockwood Academy II cabs), MGs, HPDS etc have always been at a premium compared to other similar products from the same period. The exception being the BBC designs which have also held their worth. The thing about old Tannoys is, there has always been the Japanese collectors willing to bite your hand off for them.
Look at the 5.5k Marco spent on his Majors, compare this with the nearest 15" Pepperpot wave guide model they make today the Canterbury SE. These will run you in at a quid short £14k making £5kish with uprated xovers and in my opinion, the better sound quality of the MGs in the Lockwood cabs the bargain of the century.
Regards
Paul S
walpurgis
20-01-2014, 21:43
Any idea, Geoff (or anyone else) how much a pair of 15" Monitor Golds sold for new 'back in the day', just before they were discontinued?
Marco.
No sooner said than done!
http://i42.tinypic.com/bfgufn.jpg
From my 1971 G W Smith catalogue. Prices remained much the same throughout the seventies. Range discontinued about 1976 if I recall.
Cool.... So is that £36 per drive unit, and therefore £72 per pair? :)
If so, how much does £72, in the early 70s, equate to today?
Marco.
walpurgis
20-01-2014, 21:49
Thirty quid a week wages was regarded as very reasonable money!
PaulStewart
20-01-2014, 22:10
Thirty quid a week wages was regarded as very reasonable money!
Thirty quid a week was bloody good money then, In '71 I was sixteen and I was running the showroom for my parent's mail order company. I got £6.00 a week before tax and I was considered very well paid by my mates. I later left and took a cut in wages to be a "roadie". :lol:
Thirty quid a week wages was regarded as very reasonable money!
Lol... Then I fail to see how a pair of drive units that cost more than double a week's wages [and good wages at that] could be classed as "bought for peanuts"!! ;)
Using the following inflation calculator, it shows that £72 in 1970 equates to around £804 today: http://www.whatsthecost.com/cpi.aspx
Marco.
Look at the 5.5k Marco spent on his Majors, compare this with the nearest 15" Pepperpot wave guide model they make today the Canterbury SE. These will run you in at a quid short £14k making £5kish with uprated xovers and in my opinion, the better sound quality of the MGs in the Lockwood cabs the bargain of the century.
Indeed, Paul - and for me, that's the whole point. It's also why focussing solely on the cost of the drive units today doesn't tell the full story! ;)
Marco.
walpurgis
20-01-2014, 22:39
Lol... Then I fail to see how a pair of drive units that cost more than double a week's wages [and good wages at that] could be classed as "bought for peanuts"!! ;)
Using the following inflation calculator, it shows that £72 in 1970 equates to around £804 today: http://www.whatsthecost.com/cpi.aspx
Marco.
I'm not sure that inflation calculator gives the whole picture. Current weekly earnings average around £510. Two and a half times that would be more or less an accurate reflection of the 15" MG equivalent cost now per pair. i.e., £1275.00. That would be cheap in real and material terms, just look at the cost of Lowther drivers these days and they are smaller and simpler.
Sure, Nat.
However, the bottom line is that even at £1800 (and I've seen some go for rather more than that), sonically, they're a bargain. ..
Sure, but keep a lid on it and keep your money hidden and they could have stayed cheaper than they are today..
Let the people with £10K to spend spend the £10k on something brand new and we can spend a few hundred perhaps and have a secret cheap system just as good! Unfortunately, the people with £10k to spend have found out and instead spent £5.5K and are very pleased they've saved themselves £4.5K :eek: (that's meant as tongue-in-cheek humour by the way, not having a go)
You say that Monitor Golds were "bought for peanuts", back in the day. That rather surprises me, as they were always high-quality items. So how much did they cost in the late 1960s, and what does that figure equate to in today's money?
Before the internet, old things like Tannoys, Garrards, EMTs were hidden gems - higher priced in some circles I'd guess but discarded as old junk in others. Then people started talking on the internet, word got out.. I'm talking 80's, 90's mainly as "back in the day". Tannoys could be car boot fair even up to the 00's if you were lucky.
walpurgis
20-01-2014, 23:30
Before the internet, old things like Tannoys, Garrards, EMTs were hidden gems - higher priced in some circles I'd guess but discarded as old junk in others. Then people started talking on the internet, word got out.. I'm talking 80's, 90's mainly as "back in the day". Tannoys could be car boot fair even up to the 00's if you were lucky.
That is so true. I'm speaking from experience, having bought many such items for just pocket money prices.
Lol... Then I fail to see how a pair of drive units that cost more than double a week's wages [and good wages at that] could be classed as "bought for peanuts"!! ;)
Using the following inflation calculator, it shows that £72 in 1970 equates to around £804 today: http://www.whatsthecost.com/cpi.aspx
Marco.
Time didn't exist back then as far as I can be sure...
When I say "back in the day" I mean the 90's (perhaps not 80s, as that would be too close to when they were released). Look in the classifieds of Hifi News from back then and you'll see very low prices for them, and that in hi-fi circles! Outside of that world... dirt cheap. My friend's dad was always going to car boots in the 90s picking up soooo much stuff for peanuts.
I've been trawling ebay since 2001 or so and even then Tannoy Chatsworths would be around the £200-£300 range with 12" Monitor Golds. I'm sure I would have missed many old Lockwoods for tuppence listed in an obscure studio section. I didn't know what they were then anyway - was more into Celestion 332s for some reason?? Think I liked their hessian like grills
Nowadays people won't stand for only achieving such low prices, high prices justified by the "sound per pound" theory of pricing.
Then that theory breaks down with anything currently produced and can only apply to out of production items with perceived rarity.. Should Beresford DACs be snapped up and sold on at 5 times the price because of the sound quality they achieve, like ticket touts do with major concerts? Goldmund did the same thing with the old Pioneer DVD player in a fancy box and few grand mark-up - it disgusted some people and then others happily paying the money would justify it saying it the sound justified the price and they must have done something to it... blah blah.
People like to talk themselves into paying lots of money, if they've got it of course! It feels good to spend money and the higher priced something is, the more special it feels.
I realise I'm going a fair bit of topic though..
Back to the OP, I think there was probably more of a snobbishness around back then and quality of build etc meant more or just as much as sound.
I mean the PL12 and PL112D especially are pretty plasticy and a bit tacky with their vinyl wrap veneer! They sound good though..
So then you have a choice between paying loads more for a new item with the same sound quality and a bit better build or you can pay a lot less and get the same sound for cheap with a PL12. Then sonic reputation catches up and over-takes the value and before you know it, PL12s are being sold for near £100..
It's a merging of two worlds I think, speaking of today's second-hand market. Not that long ago, mid 2000s I would be able to pick up a PL12 on ebay for £10, sell it to my friend who worked in a second-hand audio/camera/musician's shop for £60 and he'd sell it easily in a week to passer-by punters for £120 (with a service etc). They were happy with the sound and it still beat prices of new Rega RP1s and probably beat the sound too (plus looks more retro).
There was a gap there because you'd have to know where to find them cheap, put in the effort, back sure it worked and know what you were looking at!
Now the end consumer has gone straight to the internet and ebay and brought their high-street pricing with them.. The high-street seller has gone there too and so has the car boot and Loot seller and also those who were thinking of just chucking them in a skip (a quick value check on the internet first etc). Equilibrium has come to the pricing but unfortunately there hasn't been any corresponding equilibrium in our incomes :)
:scratch: I've ended up just as far from the OP as I was before.. how did that happen?
Oh, and this from StanleyB on another thread:
Before audio forums became a feature on the net, equipment buyers were heavily reliant on HIFI mags as a source of recommendation.
walpurgis
21-01-2014, 00:13
As an example of how prices can go, a few years ago, I bought a pair of (used obviously) Celestion SL600Si speakers from a well known dealer in Watford for £200. I used them for about 18 months and then bunged them on eBay. Sold them for a little over £700, nice result. Having said that, they are extremely rare now and certainly have a following. It would be interesting to know the likely value now. I liked them, nice tight, punchy bass end, decent enough mid, but rather bland top end. That copper dome tweeter was so overrated.
Gordon Steadman
21-01-2014, 08:11
I mean the PL12 and PL112D especially are pretty plasticy and a bit tacky with their vinyl wrap veneer! They sound good though..
Now this is true. For the money, these things are extremely good and bear comparison with quite a few of the 'better quality' decks I've owned. Since I got the PL112D, I've been listening to it more and more.
In fact, I'm doing direct comparisons now (most unlike me - its about the music init?) between the three TTs I have. One Origin Live, one DD based on a Sansui motor (both with RB300 with silver Litz rewires) and the Pioneer. The Pioneer may not be as smooth in some respects but its lively as hell and makes my feet jump. I would be quite happy with it in the main system. £30 as against gawd knows how many hundreds!!
I suspect an awful lot of money has been spent unnecessarily over the years.
I'm not sure that inflation calculator gives the whole picture. Current weekly earnings average around £510. Two and a half times that would be more or less an accurate reflection of the 15" MG equivalent cost now per pair. i.e., £1275.00. That would be cheap in real and material terms, just look at the cost of Lowther drivers these days and they are smaller and simpler.
Yup, I agree. The inflation calculator results were simply a guide. What you've outlined above are the actual facts, and put into perspective the real value of 15" MGs, which some here would do well to consider - and that's before factoring in their SONIC VALUE, which for me is the whole crux of the matter...
*That* is what the price that they sell for now should be judged on.
One could also argue a similar case for Garrard T/Ts, and all other high-quality vintage turntables (TD-124s, SP10s, etc), which also attract 'premium prices' now on ebay and such like. Look at the quality of the engineering alone on those items, compared to that of your average 'toytown' elastic band-driven device produced these days - and often at a higher price!
The fact is, the BEST vintage equipment doesn't come cheap - and it doesn't come cheap primarily because aficionados know its sonic capabilities, especially after applying some judicious modifications, using the best modern components, and therefore combining the best of old and new technologies.
The best systems I've ever heard have been built on those principles!
:exactly:
Marco.
I think that the bad old days of magazine reviews when it had to be a microphone at one metre on axis giving us wiggly line graphs which determined whether a component was "good" or "bad" long before we got the reviewer's perception of what it actually sounded like to their ears too I might add, but even then then it was a case of "Aha, that dip at xxxHz and the slight peak at xxxHz was evident in the listening session". Spurred on by that enervating appraisal, you thgen rushed out and bought the damn thing which sounded pants in YOUR home. No wonder really.
We then moved on to blind listening panel tests pitting several components within a particular price bracket and the winner of this contrived shoot-out was determined to be a "best buy" or some other meaningless title.
No wonder we bought some real dogs at the time, whereas now our judgements are not coloured by all that crap any more.
Gordon Steadman
21-01-2014, 09:22
.
No wonder we bought some real dogs at the time, whereas now our judgements are not coloured by all that crap any more.
But what are our judgements coloured by I wonder:eyebrows:
But what are our judgements coloured by I wonder:eyebrows:
Now they are coloured by people telling us how good something sounds in a room and system context that may be completely different from our own. Still, someone invented eBay, so now we can sell on the stuff that doesn't suit.
But what are our judgements coloured by I wonder:eyebrows:
To a degree we are still dominated by those former reviewing legacies, hence why when some items are offered for sale with a well known brand name attached the punters crawl all over them and the less well known but in my opinion better quality and sounding, barely get a scant look in - as any half decent box-swapper will tell you :eyebrows:
I have had some awesome kit through my hands that nobody has ever heard of and it usually widdles all over the famous name stuff. The drawback to that philosophy is you can lose a fair bit of money when you come to sell it on again :(
Hi Nat,
Sure, but keep a lid on it and keep your money hidden and they could have stayed cheaper than they are today..
Lol... I'm sorry, I totally disagree. When I find a superb piece of vintage kit, I want to shout about it from the rooftops, and let everyone know, so that they too (if they can afford it and like it) can obtain the same pleasure I have from using it. That's precisely why I 'harp on' about the joys of vintage Tannoys, Celestions, JBLs, etc.
Besides what else are forums like this for if they're not to relate your genuine experiences, and based on that, give honest recommendations to others?
Let the people with £10K to spend spend the £10k on something brand new and we can spend a few hundred perhaps and have a secret cheap system just as good! Unfortunately, the people with £10k to spend have found out and instead spent £5.5K and are very pleased they've saved themselves £4.5K :eek: (that's meant as tongue-in-cheek humour by the way, not having a go)
Lol, well that sums me up to a tee... I'm very pleased and thankful that information on the Internet (and from those more knowledgeable than me) has suitably educated me, in that respect, and saved me a fortune!
Before the internet, old things like Tannoys, Garrards, EMTs were hidden gems - higher priced in some circles I'd guess but discarded as old junk in others. Then people started talking on the internet, word got out.. I'm talking 80's, 90's mainly as "back in the day". Tannoys could be car boot fair even up to the 00's if you were lucky.
You say that as if it were a bad thing?
It might be for the penny-pinching 'bargain hunters' out there, who now are no longer able to assemble hi-fi systems 'on the cheap', using the best vintage components (it's now time for the misers to get their hands in their pockets), or those seeking to make a 'fast buck' from buying and selling vintage gear, but for the rest of us, its been a Godsend.
If only I knew, 14 years ago (when I spent £30K+ on brand new kit, mistakenly believing that buying the best new equipment meant that you got the best sound), what I know now...............................................
That is *precisely* why, here on AoS, we will continually seek to 'educate' people on what the best vintage equipment is capable of, sonically, by highlighting and recommending suitable examples. It is the very essence of what achieving 'SPPV' is about, and that principle resides at the core of our ethos.
Marco.
I was meeting mrsjulesd68 near Tottenham Court Road today so took a few minutes to have a look in the windows of one of the few 'hi-fi' shops left.
Now I wasn't looking at expensive gear I admit - around the £300 mark - but on some of the amps the entire fascia and every switch appeared to be made of plastic. And not good plastic. Shiny, cheap and horrible plastic. Very surprised to see one of the latest Denon amps as one of the worst offenders here.
Sadly, that's what happens when price, rather than quality, is the driving factor when manufacturers produce hi-fi equipment. Trust me, the quality of the internals often isn't any better... :rolleyes:
Largely, I blame the obsession with price of 'Joe public' today, and it's not simply because money is tight. Some people are just inherently mean, but many others have also been brought up expecting things to be cheap (thanks to the effects of consumerism), and so their buying decisions are almost entirely price-driven.
Quality is rarely considered, as people these days don't expect things to last, so they buy the cheapest suitable items they can find, with the view of doing the same again when said items break or are worn out. The market then simply supplies the demand.
It's what fuels our 'disposable society' and also drives down standards for those of us who value quality over quantity, and for whom price is a consideration, but not the 'be all and end all'.
Marco.
anthonyTD
21-01-2014, 10:56
So True,.:(
Sadly, that's what happens when price, rather than quality, is the driving factor when manufacturers produce hi-fi equipment. Trust me, the quality of the internals often isn't any better... :rolleyes:
Largely, I blame the obsession with price of 'Joe public' today, and it's not simply because money is tight. Some people are just inherently mean, but many others have also been brought up expecting things to be cheap (thanks to the effects of consumerism) and so their buying decisions are almost entirely price-driven.
Quality is rarely considered, as people these days don't expect things to last, so they buy the cheapest suitable items they can find, with the view of doing the same again when said items break or are worn out. The market then simply supplies the demand.
It's what fuels our 'disposable society' and also drives down standards for those of us who value quality over quantity, and for whom price is a consideration, but not the 'be all and end all'.
Marco.
re: The current price of Tannoy DC drivers now compared to 1973
You have to take into account availablilty, not just inflation when looking at the cost. If there was a warehouse full of new/old stock Tannoy golds/reds/blacks then the price would be a lot lower today than it actually is.
Note how the blacks are the most expensive even though most don't seem to think they are the best sounding. That's 'cause they are the rarest ones.
Good point, Martin!
I've not heard Blacks, but have heard Silvers and owned Reds, both of which, in terms of midrange presence and sheer breathtaking realism, smoke the Golds. However, the Golds have 85% of the talents of Reds and Silvers, but add genuine low-frequency extension (together with improved power handling), for 'real world' listening, especially for those whose musical tastes extend beyond Diana Krall and jazz quartets ;)
Marco.
You say that as if it were a bad thing?
It might be for the penny-pinching 'bargain hunters' out there, who now are no longer able to assemble hi-fi systems 'on the cheap', using the best vintage components (it's now time for the misers to get their hands in their pockets), or those seeking to make a 'fast buck' from buying and selling vintage gear, but for the rest of us, its been a Godsend.
If only I knew, 14 years ago (when I spent £30K+ on brand new kit, mistakenly believing that buying the best new equipment meant that you got the best sound), what I know now...............................................
That is *precisely* why, here on AoS, we will continually seek to 'educate' people on what the best vintage equipment is capable of, sonically, by highlighting and recommending suitable examples. It is the very essence of what achieving 'SPPV' is about, and that principle resides at the core of our ethos.
Marco.
That's me ! Mr Penny Pinching! I don't earn enough or have any (mental) ability to save. I could earn lots more I guess but I'd have to dedicate myself to work (err.. like everyone else in the world) and can't be having that... just too boring and depressing (literally). I earn enough to get by ..
It's not necessarily a bad thing - means they get saved for one thing - but in pure, err "hi-fi socialism", great hifi for the masses (the old stuff) and leave those who can afford it to buy the new stuff -way, it is bad .
Then again, there is SOOO much great hifi out there that I leave the immediately obviously desirable stuff like Tannoys and Garrards to others and instead look for unknown, "don't know anything about this, but I can see it is quality!" boutique items OR there is the modifying cheaper but good stuff like PL12s, some CD players etc.
There's room for all types in this game, as long as it remains a relatively small hobby group.
P.S. "SPPV" ?
jandl100
21-01-2014, 16:12
To a degree we are still dominated by those former reviewing legacies, hence why when some items are offered for sale with a well known brand name attached the punters crawl all over them and the less well known but in my opinion better quality and sounding, barely get a scant look in - as any half decent box-swapper will tell you :eyebrows:
I have had some awesome kit through my hands that nobody has ever heard of and it usually widdles all over the famous name stuff. The drawback to that philosophy is you can lose a fair bit of money when you come to sell it on again :(
Aye, as a half decent boxswapper myself, I can say that that is very true, Frank.
I've had some marvellous sounding kit that has been a real pain to sell on cos it hasn't got a famous name.
Similar can be said for the less well known American kit - it sells well in the US but not over here in the UK.
And as for Tannoy DC speakers .... :nono: awful things, what is all the fuss about? :scratch: :eyebrows:
Floyddroid
21-01-2014, 16:42
I have got to agree with you on both accounts. I loved the M75ED. It was a cracking cartridge. There was a few fabulous things that didn't get the thumbs up from the establishment like the Rotel RP1500 turntable. I loved mine.
I suppose its inevitable, that the more we buy second hand equipment, the more we are likely to re-assess stuff that had good, bad or indifferent reviews in the past.
I am still a valve man but have been really impressed with many of the Japanese amps from the 70's that were written off by the press at the time.
It makes you wonder if the whole industry was driven by reviews of 'new' and 'better' and devil take the hindmost. Macca's latest acquisition for instance..... AKAI speakers for god's sake:eek: Wrong shape, wrong bits inside and especially, wrong name on the outside.
I bought the Pioneer PL112D in order to butcher it and have ended up keeping it. OK its not the last word and doesn't compete with my main deck but its very good considering its price point.
It came with a Shure M75ED with a new stylus in the box. I have been transferring some of my older LPs to digits and have been surprised at just how good this cartridge is. Very clean, good crisp and DEEP bass and very enjoyable indeed. I remember them being criticised for being 'sharp' and 'unmusical' at the time and like the rest of the sheep, I swapped mine for a Nagaoka MP11 which was the budget fave at the time.
Listening again, I reckon it was in the wrong direction. The strange thing is that I find the balance almost exactly the same as CD.
I wonder if there would have been a market for hi-fi at all, if it hadn't been driven by those 'golden eared' (sorry Marco) reviewers whose opinions were treated like tablets of stone.
How many great products have been pushed into the rubbish bins of history for no good reason but the continuing profits of a small group of manufacturers??? One does wonder what might have changed hands:rolleyes:
That's me ! Mr Penny Pinching! I don't earn enough or have any (mental) ability to save. I could earn lots more I guess but I'd have to dedicate myself to work (err.. like everyone else in the world) and can't be having that... just too boring and depressing (literally). I earn enough to get by ..
Lol - interesting... May I ask how you earn a living, then? I'm intrigued! :)
It's not necessarily a bad thing - means they get saved for one thing - but in pure, err "hi-fi socialism", great hifi for the masses (the old stuff) and leave those who can afford it to buy the new stuff -way, it is bad .
Perhaps, but that's not my concern. I simply identify stuff, listen to it, and report the results here.
What others do with that information is entirely up to them, and how that impacts on the price of vintage kit is (for me) immaterial. All I do is offer my subjective opinion on equipment, vintage or otherwise. What happens after that is out of my hands.
Then again, there is SOOO much great hifi out there that I leave the immediately obviously desirable stuff like Tannoys and Garrards to others and instead look for unknown, "don't know anything about this, but I can see it is quality!" boutique items OR there is the modifying cheaper but good stuff like PL12s, some CD players etc.
There's room for all types in this game, as long as it remains a relatively small hobby group.
P.S. "SPPV" ?
Sure, and good luck in your quest! SPPV = 'Sound Per Pound Value'. We're rather 'hot' on that topic here, particularly in identifying equipment that delivers highly on it! :cool:
Marco.
StanleyB
21-01-2014, 17:32
But quality Japanese components that were overlooked by the audio press in terms of value for money could be found in some unexpected quarters as well. One of my particular favourite is the Pioneer PC-5MC moving coil cartridge. Like its cheaper stable mate the PC-3MC, the stylus could be removed in the same way just as on a MM cartridge. That alone made it unique enough to have warranted closer inspection. But the audio press or the Pioneer marketing people really dropped a clanger here. I reckon that the reason it was overlooked was for the fact that Pioneer decided to stick it on their PL-640 turntable, instead of selling it as a stand alone product in its own right. I reckon you have never heard of the PL-640. And that was the downfall of this cartridge. It was a brilliant piece of engineering with amazing value for money moving coil performance, stuck in an average at best turntable that relied on its apparent good sound purely on the PC-5MC. Sound wise the PC-5MC was a good opponent for MC carts costing a lot more.
I first got to listen to one when I was a repair engineer. After having to replace a PC-5MC on a PL-640, I decided to keep the "old" cartridge and try it out at home on my DDX-1000 TT. It is still bolted to one of my spare headshells with a new stylus fitted. I even have a new one hidden away somewhere after finding one on ebay. Well worth a try if one comes your way.
Lol - interesting... May I ask how you earn a living, then? I'm intrigued! :)
:booty:
Not really.. (I don't earn a living by shaking my booty). I work in the theatre type industry, freelance. Theatre chippy (that means cartpenter, not serving chips!) work, roadie work, stage technician, van transport for the industry.. that type of thing. Sometimes an extra in films too as a seperate, interesting thing to do which pays ok. How much work you get your way depends on how much you push yourself forward and how much you want to dedicate your time to it.. Go too far and it takes over your life, asked on tours or working on projects with 15 hr days for a week or so - think I get the balance right without falling into the trap of a full-on career!
My savings essentially go into my hifi hobby and so end up selling some bits during the quiet times.
Well, Nat, that's interesting and refreshingly different. I like it! :cool:
Marco.
Aye, as a half decent boxswapper myself, I can say that that is very true, Frank.
I've had some marvellous sounding kit that has been a real pain to sell on cos it hasn't got a famous name.
Similar can be said for the less well known American kit - it sells well in the US but not over here in the UK.
Amen to that !
And yet it is often the more exciting and interesting kit! Some people don't want to stray from the well trodden paths of their own local audiophile's micro-culture.
Other countries' hifi mags seem to have had a much more varied selection of kit and brands.
julesd68
21-01-2014, 21:24
Sadly, that's what happens when price, rather than quality, is the driving factor when manufacturers produce hi-fi equipment. Trust me, the quality of the internals often isn't any better... :rolleyes:
Largely, I blame the obsession with price of 'Joe public' today, and it's not simply because money is tight. Some people are just inherently mean, but many others have also been brought up expecting things to be cheap (thanks to the effects of consumerism), and so their buying decisions are almost entirely price-driven.
Quality is rarely considered, as people these days don't expect things to last, so they buy the cheapest suitable items they can find, with the view of doing the same again when said items break or are worn out. The market then simply supplies the demand.
It's what fuels our 'disposable society' and also drives down standards for those of us who value quality over quantity, and for whom price is a consideration, but not the 'be all and end all'.
Marco.
Marco,
I think there is still a healthy section of the public that is actually interested in quality which is why shops like John Lewis still do well selling their higher quality stuff. I was a bit surprised when my mum shelled out what seemed like a lot of dosh for a Miele washing machine many years ago. However, hers is still going strong whilst our Bosch lasted about 5 years before being told it was 'uneconomical' to repair ... :steam:
The problem to me is that there has not been enough pressure brought to bear on manufacturers seemingly building in early obsolescence into their kit - we tend just to accept it as the ways things are. I'm still annoyed about my expensive iMac that they told me was unrepairable a few days after the warranty expired ... This is the most annoying thing for me, when you *think* you are buying quality but then it lasts the same short time as the cheap stuff ...
Sometimes quality is really important to me and sometimes it isn't ... For example, I would never spend a lot of money on casual clothes, but if I'm buying a suit, I am extremely fussy about what I buy and quality is my only concern up to a price point I can afford.
icehockeyboy
22-01-2014, 12:33
A few years ago, I swapped in a 70's Nikko integrated that had the facility to separate pre and power, to where my Classe pre was, I assume the Nikko would have been around £75, maybe a bit more, and the Classe retailed at almost £2.5 k.
To say I was astounded at the quality of the old thing is an understatement!
It has since returned to its home under my bed awaiting new adventures someday, :)
To show how old it is, it has Din speaker outlets, and 5 pin din inputs!
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