View Full Version : Kondo and B&W?
At CES. Just something I never expected to see... wouldn't have thought B&W would have be held in high regard by your average Kondo user. Learn something every day...
http://my-hiend.com/leoyeh2/2013a/IMG_8409ss.jpg
Indeed; my experience of B&W's 800 series would suggest that powerful solid state amps are their natural partners.
Indeed; my experience of B&W's 800 series would suggest that powerful solid state amps are their natural partners.
Indeed...from that picture, I can't help but wonder of the speakers aren't controlling the amps instead of the other way round :lol: High-ish output impedance, single ended amps driving 800 series B&W's? Interesting.
And the mega bucks Kagura is using just about the cheapest Chinese 211s available. Slap!
http://my-hiend.com/leoyeh2/2013a/DSC05742ss.jpg
I see the room is Largely Kondo sponsored so I wonder if they are trying to make a 'look we are universal' type statement. Also, the cost of exhibiting is so high that companies often collaborate or make odd logistical decisions.
Well I guess we'll never know the answer but you'd hope with the prices charged they could afford to use want they wanted to. That said, I really wonder how much top Kondo gear they actually sell.
I do like the looks of the Kagura, though, and other copper topped Kondo amps.
rubber duck
11-01-2014, 22:18
I think the idea may have been to show that the amp can drive difficult loads.
Why does it always happen? Great gear and hideous carpets!
Cos the room is in a hotel that is in Las Vegas...
jandl100
12-01-2014, 08:43
So how did the combo actually sound?
-- did you get your gold credit card out? ;)
Not too good from Bristol Jerry. Amps do 5% distortion at 50 Watts and they had to crank it so I could hear it, obviously.
jandl100
12-01-2014, 09:01
:lol:
I fort u woz there :D
Ah, bottom right, "photo by ...." :doh:
It's Leo again - they are all here (http://www.my-hiend.com/vbb/showthread.php?7487-2014年-CES-and-T-H-E-SHOW-實況報導), all 4,657,380,853 of them. Keith posted a link a few days ago.
pure sound
14-01-2014, 22:57
I wonder if they intended to use their own speakers (as they did at Munich last time) but they went astray. I think the weather in the US caused a few logistics difficulties for CES last week.
That said, I've seen them exhibiting with Avant Gard before. Maybe its just the local distributor's choice.
purite audio
14-01-2014, 23:08
Do B&W currently manufacture the 801, I believe it was discontinued a number of years ago?
Keith.
Beobloke
15-01-2014, 12:54
Yes, the 801 was discontinued when the 'D' range became the 'Diamond' range IIRC.
Damn shame IMHO - the 801Ds are one of my all-time favourite loudspeakers. You can't beat a fifteen incher!
Yes, the 801 was discontinued when the 'D' range became the 'Diamond' range IIRC.
Damn shame IMHO - the 801Ds are one of my all-time favourite loudspeakers. You can't beat a fifteen incher!
Absolutely...I prefer the 801's to the latest ones. Massive scale with the right amplification (preferably a few Megawatts :lol:)
realysm42
16-01-2014, 07:57
http://www.theaudiobeat.com/ces2014/ces2014_kondo.htm
http://www.theaudiobeat.com/ces2014/ces2014_kondo.htm
Ah an explanation! It can drive real world loudspeakers - but not when playing real music as the Diana Krall album attests...;)
It was a bit of a futile exercise at best, TBH. Are we supposed to be impressed that a $198,000 amp can drive a pair of 801Ds?:mental:
So it is a powerful amp for a single ended design, but that's not really the point, is it? It is the supposed magic of its distortion profile that any listener should be interested in, surely? What else is a single ended design about?
The misnomer with SE amps is that the more powerful they are, the more grip on speakers they have which is a false belief. Unless they use a modicum of negative feedback and low output impedance, most SE designs cannot remain stable into a varying speaker load, particularly one with a high phase angle or one with an impedance curve that looks like the Alps (Tannoys anyone?) as their damping factor is too low to control the loads involved. Lots of power without low output impedance is pretty much a waste of time with highly variable or low loudspeaker impedance loads or where large drivers like this are concerned. Not such an issue into very high loudspeaker impedances which are pretty rarely seen these days. Of course, that ignores the fairy dust magic distortion warmth of a Kondo...you can almost smell the pixie flames licking at your ears...
200k! Is that really what they cost? You could hire diana krall and her band to do a gig for yo personall and still have 190 k left over. Lunacy. If you want a tailored sound buy a graphic equaliset you can get a good one for 200 notes or less.
istari_knight
16-01-2014, 19:04
200k! Is that really what they cost? You could hire diana krall and her band to do a gig for yo personall and still have 190 k left over. Lunacy. If you want a tailored sound buy a graphic equaliset you can get a good one for 200 notes or less.
Shhh with that common sense :nono:
One can make any decent SS amplifier behave more like a valve amp [and maybe sound more like one] by adding series output resistors to increase the amplifiers output impedance. Common values to try vary from 1R > 4.7R... FWIW Bob Carver prefers 1.5R in his amplifiers ;)
Just ensure you use high wattage resistors [like 3x20w in series or similar.]
pure sound
16-01-2014, 19:22
Good luck with that. I'd still like to hear a SS amp with some series R applied that sounds like an Ongaku or Gaku-Oh.
istari_knight
16-01-2014, 19:29
:lol: Me too ! I cant see an EQ doing it either somehow... But they aren't your average valve amp are they ?
Hello kondo? Yes, I have some b&w 801 speakers that I bought because they were specifically designed as a full range ultra low distortion studio monitor and I would like to partner them with some amps tha exhibit 5% thd best case and that cost 200 grand. Yes if you google ' more money than sense - images' you will see a picture of me. Yes, of course i' ll hold...
Here's a couple of Gaku-On system pics I took from Hong Kong 2008.
http://www.martinloganowners.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=7985&stc=1&d=1218286054
http://www.martinloganowners.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=7986&stc=1&d=1218286063
Now I can tell you it is perfectly possible to walk into a room like this, and be COMPLETELY underwhelmed. Because I was just that. The problem wasn't the amps but the Kharma speakers which I have never liked. Zzzz always send me to sleep. They are tonally pleasant, I suppose, but really f*^*ing boring. Another questionable speaker choice? For me, yes, but hey...
These did have some NOS GE tubes in though. Better...:)
Hello kondo? Yes, I have some b&w 801 speakers that I bought because they were specifically designed as a full range ultra low distortion studio monitor and I would like to partner them with some amps tha exhibit 5% thd best case and that cost 200 grand. Yes if you google ' more money than sense - images' you will see a picture of me. Yes, of course i' ll hold...
:rfl:
Hello kondo? Yes, I have some b&w 801 speakers that I bought because they were specifically designed as a full range ultra low distortion studio monitor and I would like to partner them with some amps tha exhibit 5% thd best case and that cost 200 grand. Yes if you google ' more money than sense - images' you will see a picture of me. Yes, of course i' ll hold...
Well 5% at full power - but yes, point taken:) Within their no-strain output range with these speakers (if there really is one), though, the accurate studio monitor should reveal the charming sonic qualities of the design.
Maybe.:lol:
I must admit to being really impressed with an Ongaku driving Snell type Ks many years ago though. Really did sound lovely, despite the price mismatch.
The question is, what are the best speakers for these designs? I'd love to hear some old huge WE horns with them... I wonder:)
Well I am not one to comment on kit I have not heard and I figured thesr amps were not cheap but it really is so silly I could not resist.
Well I am not one to comment on kit I have not heard and I figured thesr amps were not cheap but it really is so silly I could not resist.
I think you did right... it is such a legitimate piss-take in so many ways, and it made me smlie:) Plus I'm sure loads of people were thinking it anyway.
pure sound
16-01-2014, 22:55
Well 5% at full power - but yes, point taken:) Within their no-strain output range with these speakers (if there really is one), though, the accurate studio monitor should reveal the charming sonic qualities of the design.
Maybe.:lol:
I must admit to being really impressed with an Ongaku driving Snell type Ks many years ago though. Really did sound lovely, despite the price mismatch.
The question is, what are the best speakers for these designs? I'd love to hear some old huge WE horns with them... I wonder:)
Avant Gard Trios with active bass would be a good call. As would be Cessaros & of course Vox Olympians. Instead of worrying about THD of 5% look at the load lines & calculate the distortion they'll be producing at 10mW. Then look at the distortion B&W's and Kharmas will be producing at comparable spls & remind me which product is the inaccurate one ;)
Conversely, I don't worry too much about the distortion my 211 amps put out, as my speakers put out less measurable distortion than many power amps (according to M. Collom's measurements decades ago). If the amp spec sheet is to be believed, it is quite low anyway, but we're talking P/P with F/B, so not surprising.
Trios/Basshorns with any good suitable amp are going to impress me full stop, I suspect, but yeah, love to try it.
pure sound
17-01-2014, 07:43
Indeed, unusually it'll be your amplifiers that produce similar or more distortion than the speakers. In most systems the speaker distortion dominates.
Indeed, unusually it'll be your amplifiers that produce similar or more distortion than the speakers. In most systems the speaker distortion dominates.
Absolutely. I wonder if people who fret over 0.5% THD know that their speakers may be producing more like 10% in some cases? That's before the room interaction is considered.
Also, there's THD and THD. Personally, a handful of 2nd order THD is not unpleasant whereas 0.3% odd order from a clipping transistor amp is both audible and objectionable.
As to accuracy, it isn't nearly as straightforward as matching amp and speaker specifications. There's far ore to it than that, such as phase response/accuracy, room response, and a host of things (mostly connected with the speakers) which are largely ignored by most in preference to published (and fairly meaningless on their own) sensitivity figures and nominal loads.
As Guy states, it's about matching where an amp measures low in THD to speakers sensitive enough and with a flat enough impedance to generate an accurate signal, all other variables being seen as ticked boxes (which they rarely are).
Vox Olympians...now there's one speaker I'd love to build an extension for!
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