Preamp to match Albarry Monoblocks ?

[Audioman]

I have just purchased Andrew's (Elephantears) Albarry 608's. Super sound (potentially) but it is going to involve a bit of tweaking to get the best out of these. I have a loaned Albarry passive and results are good with CD but lacking a bit on vinyl in terms of drive. In truth the Rega Fono lacks gain (on max) and turning the pre right up to compensate reveals some buzz through the tweeters between tracks. In truth the vol pot on the pre is a little unconventional starting at 9 O clock and ending at 8 O clock. Looking for suitable alternative preamp suggestions.

Firstly was thinking of Trying the Tisbury and subbing my dead Denson DP drive (after sourcing a new board for £200). This I know has more gain but Densen do not give output specs anywhere! Should I go for a passive or what actives are likely to be suitable? I know Andrew had problems matching and his Croft clone (made by the Danish importer) sounded pretty poor with it. This would suggest valve preamps incl Croft are likely a bad match in spite of what others might claim. There is a matter of impedance matching rather than gain. Specs for Albarry are (from their manual) 'Impedance 5K1 ohms, Input Sensitivity 550 mV Odb'. Please note looking for something affordable preferably well under £1K.

Another thing the Albarry manual (now downloadable) suggests litz (twisted) type cables are unsuitable in a similar way to NVA. Nothing untoward so far with my old Audioquest twisted cable but am making up some temp cable from solid core mains (1m per side) until I can obtain NVA cable in a couple of weeks.

Paul.

[walpurgis]

I'd suggest a MingDa MC-9 TVC pre-amp. I've got one and it sounds superb, none of the thinness of potentiometer passives and wonderful transparency.

http://i43.tinypic.com/4llvnk.jpg

Currently only available from the far east. I imported mine and for the money it is unbeatable.

Here's an eBay listing: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Meixing-MingDa-MC-9-Passive-PreAmplifier-MC9-New-/270466256529

Looks like he has to quote specially for UK dispatch.

[rubber duck]

I have a loaned Albarry passive and results are good with CD but lacking a bit on vinyl in terms of drive. In truth the Rega Fono lacks gain (on max) and turning the pre right up to compensate reveals some buzz through the tweeters between tracks.

Congratulations on the purchase, really nice amps. If the Albarry pre works on CD and the problem is the Fono, why not look at another phono stage? Glenn can reconfigure the Croft pre/phono to work with a passive.

[Reffc]

I have just purchased Andrew's (Elephantears) Albarry 608's. Super sound (potentially) but it is going to involve a bit of tweaking to get the best out of these. I have a loaned Albarry passive and results are good with CD but lacking a bit on vinyl in terms of drive. In truth the Rega Fono lacks gain (on max) and turning the pre right up to compensate reveals some buzz through the tweeters between tracks. In truth the vol pot on the pre is a little unconventional starting at 9 O clock and ending at 8 O clock. Looking for suitable alternative preamp suggestions.

Firstly was thinking of Trying the Tisbury and subbing my dead Denson DP drive (after sourcing a new board for £200). This I know has more gain but Densen do not give output specs anywhere! Should I go for a passive or what actives are likely to be suitable? I know Andrew had problems matching and his Croft clone (made by the Danish importer) sounded pretty poor with it. This would suggest valve preamps incl Croft are likely a bad match in spite of what others might claim. There is a matter of impedance matching rather than gain. Specs for Albarry are (from their manual) 'Impedance 5K1 ohms, Input Sensitivity 550 mV Odb'. Please note looking for something affordable preferably well under £1K.

Another thing the Albarry manual (now downloadable) suggests litz (twisted) type cables are unsuitable in a similar way to NVA. Nothing untoward so far with my old Audioquest twisted cable but am making up some temp cable from solid core mains (1m per side) until I can obtain NVA cable in a couple of weeks.

Paul.


I would recommend Albarry's own preamp. I tried several with the same mono's Paul including the fcroft (which didn't go well with it). Albarrys own pre is a stunning preamp and has a stunning phonostage in-built. They don't come up often used, but Neil may ndo you a deal on one depending on budget.

Bear in mind that the monos have a lowish input impedance (to limit RFI induced noise couling with the signal) so a very low output impedance amp is a must. Passives are NOT a good idea unless used with a buffer amp stage. If you go down the passive route, I have a passive stage that I made up you can try.

Ignore the cr*p talked about using litz speaker cables with the Albarrys. These monos are properly designed and will drive higher capacitance cables if needed, but I never understand why anyone would want to do that.

[Audioman]

Thanks Geoff but it appears to not have enough inputs. Should have added 3 inputs minimum required.

Paul.

[Audioman]

I would recommend Albarry's own preamp. I tried several with the same mono's Paul including the fcroft (which didn't go well with it). Albarrys own pre is a stunning preamp and has a stunning phonostage in-built. They don't come up often used, but Neil may ndo you a deal on one depending on budget.

Bear in mind that the monos have a lowish input impedance (to limit RFI induced noise couling with the signal) so a very low output impedance amp is a must. Passives are NOT a good idea unless used with a buffer amp stage. If you go down the passive route, I have a passive stage that I made up you can try.

Ignore the cr*p talked about using litz speaker cables with the Albarrys. These monos are properly designed and will drive higher capacitance cables if needed, but I never understand why anyone would want to do that.

Thanks Paul. Unfortunately I believe retail went up from 1.5K to 2.5K - would have stretched for it new if not for the price hike which can't really be justified by the improvements (in material terms). Not saying it's overpriced compared with the competition - just prices asked for hi-end hi-fi are now to steep for the wider UK market. Obviously it should be the ideal choice. I suppose it's value to me would depend on the quality of phono stage + step up in relation to stand alone stages up to £2K. In other words would it save me money in the long run?

Paul.

[Reffc]

Thanks Paul. Unfortunately I believe retail went up from 1.5K to 2.5K - would have stretched for it new if not for the price hike which can't really be justified by the improvements (in material terms). Not saying it's overpriced compared with the competition - just prices asked for hi-end hi-fi are now to steep for the wider UK market. Obviously it should be the ideal choice. I suppose it's value to me would depend on the quality of phono stage + step up in relation to stand alone stages up to £2K. In other words would it save me money in the long run?

Paul.

Yes, the price hike was a bit of a surprise. I have the older version pre (2 years old) and tbh, can tell little difference from the newer one I heard at Whittlebury this year. The step-up isn't included with the pre-that's a separate box. The on-board phono stage is very good indeed. It will rank well against so called high end phono-stages.

If you decide against it, bear in mind what I said about passives...not really a suitable match with the Albarry monos unless buffered. For similar reasons, I would advise against valve preamps too as output impedance may be too high. Input into the monos is just over 5KOhms so a decent SS active is the best option. Great amps though, and I'm sure you'll really enjoy yours, so congrats on the purchase.

[Audioman]

Yes, the price hike was a bit of a surprise. I have the older version pre (2 years old) and tbh, can tell little difference from the newer one I heard at Whittlebury this year. The step-up isn't included with the pre-that's a separate box. The on-board phono stage is very good indeed. It will rank well against so called high end phono-stages.

If you decide against it, bear in mind what I said about passives...not really a suitable match with the Albarry monos unless buffered. For similar reasons, I would advise against valve preamps too as output impedance may be too high. Input into the monos is just over 5KOhms so a decent SS active is the best option. Great amps though, and I'm sure you'll really enjoy yours, so congrats on the purchase.

Thanks Paul. Following your advice am about to shorten the Audioquest until I get a better cable. Interesting about the upgraded pre. Having heard the amps through Andrew's Harbeth's I wouldn't rely too heavily on the sound they got at Whittlebury. They had some room problems I believe and to me the treble sounded detached and forward - quite different to what I heard the other day.

I suppose the question is now any suggestions for matching solid state preamps? I just know someone is going to still suggest Croft is a good match!

Paul.

[Reffc]

At Whittlebury, there was good reason for the treble sounding detached...the speakers had to be placed upside down! This was done because they were too boomy initially, so to decouple the woofers a little from the floor boundary, they were tipped upside down which meant that the tweeter was probably firing at your knee-cap ;)

Any quality SS pre should do. Just check the gain so it matches the gain of the power. I think gain on the monos is around 30dB, so a medium gain pre (20 to 25dB) should be fine. Output impedance from any SS should be nice and low. IMHO, the croft is not a great match..I found it very lean and fatiguing when used with the Albarrys...another clue that the Croft wasn't happy firing into such a low input impedance as there's nothing wrong with the Croft preamp when properly matched. There's a huge selection of reasonable priced pre-amps. In your shoes I would short-list perhaps a few of the following:

Quad 44, 66 or 99;

Quad Elite Pre;

Simaudio Moon pre (any of them);

Parasound Halo Pre (on-board phono);

MF: One of their Dual Mono preamps;

Primare P30 preamp;

Perreaux Audiant DP32 (used);

Plinius M8 or similar...superb build and sound.

[Elephantears]

I would have really liked to go on a pre-amp quest with the Albarrys but I realised I didn't want to sell my Unico pair so had to make a tricky choice. However I kept wondering which solid state pre-amps I might try and I did wonder if Musical Fidelity would be a good match. I saw an A1 somewhere recently - perhaps on HiFiForsale, and the newer range (I think it's the M6 pre) have come up ex-demo a good bit of late.

I was also told that Audio Research work well with them, and I really wanted to try one. However I looked at the AR website and for every pre-amp they make they give you commendable details about impedance matching, and they don't recommend their pre-amps for very low impedance. I wish more manufacturers would give such useful information. I think VTL do the same. Maybe it's an American thing.

Anyway I do hope you find a good match Paul, and I will watch your progress with much interest. Of course if an Albarry pre comes up second hand we should make sure it ends up in your direction!

[Audioman]

Thanks Andrew for the demo which at least gave me some idea what not to look for. If Albarry hadn't jacked up prices this would be a no brainer. I'm sure there are a good few preamps out there that will match. I assume you mean the later A1 pre which I remember was being sold very cheaply about the time MF changed their whole range for mostly far more expensive models. The trouble is I have never been entirely convinced by them as they vary so much from model to model and chop and change so often. As far as Paul's suggestions go I can't see Quad pres having the required transparency. The Primare or Simaudio may well fit the bill and are relatively common. Also wonder if Densen might work. Also I'm wondering if a transformer based pre would fit the bill. When I heard the Music First they were using a Quad 306 which may have disguised a bright sound quality.

Anyway the amps appear OK with my speakers and frankly not far behind the Harbeths when you consider price differences. There is enough gain with a high output source even though I'm sure there is more bass to be had. Analogue does appear to need an active pre to give drive and bounce or a phono stage with a lot of gain. I need to get that Densen drive up and running to be sure one way or another. Tisbury may be a usefull stop gap. You can contact them with specs to find if your power amp is suitable.

Paul.

[hifi_dave]

I know others don't agree but being pragmatic, I've sold numerous Croft pres with Albarry power-amps and they work just fine. If the budget is tight, they make a great combination.

The Albarry AP11 is an excellent pre-amp and the internal MM phono stage is a winner. I know the price is £2495 but it is right up there with a lot of the exotic 'competition' which sells for a lot more. I've sold several Albarry pres against a certain UK built pre with PSU, which retails at £5200, for instance.

[Ali Tait]

Speak to Nick about his 6080 pre.

[Audioman]

I know others don't agree but being pragmatic, I've sold numerous Croft pres with Albarry power-amps and they work just fine. If the budget is tight, they make a great combination.

The Albarry AP11 is an excellent pre-amp and the internal MM phono stage is a winner. I know the price is £2495 but it is right up there with a lot of the exotic 'competition' which sells for a lot more. I've sold several Albarry pres against a certain UK built pre with PSU, which retails at £5200, for instance.

All I can go on is Andrew's Teknifi/Croft (which at least looks similar to the old crofts) was a mismatch in terms of what sounded like impedance rather than gain. On that basis the current Croft's will have to be considerably different to be a good match. It's possible I would consider the Albarry pre if it is as good as you say if one is going ex dem. Anyway need to eliminate passive viability first as Andrew's phono stage certainly had enough gain to produce a more dynamic sound through the passive. Probably requires some auditioning before I take the plunge into something more expensive and given a tonearm upgrade is also on the cards in the near future.

Paul.

[Elephantears]

Yes I think it would be a good idea to try another phono stage, because I actually found the opposite. My phono stage had a lot of gain, so that worked fine with a passive, but my DAC only outputs 1.5V, and it always felt like the pre-amps I had at hand were hungry for more. This was a key factor for me since the DAX Discrete is one of the non-negotiable elements of my system.

[Audioman]

I've sorted the gain problem now about half way round vol control for normal listening. Rega quote input impedance instead of gain in Dbs so lowest value gives the largest gain! Being a numpty I was reading this wrong way. I still think the Denson with it's fuller sound and possibly even more gain will be worth reviving. If not £2K is likely better spent on new arm and phono stage. Will try a Tisbury passive as the specs look ridiculously good for the money.

Paul.

[trio leo]

I had a Spectral DMC 12 pre-amp which was a £5k unit and very good it was too, but the Albarry AP11 had a better phono stage, so I bought it, then I heard the upgraded model and IMHO it was a marked improvement, livelier, more tuneful and a beautiful bass line, that's what I'm using now.

The only pre-amp I have heard better than the AP11 is the Nagra Jazz, but it is £9K and I don't think it has a phono stage, fabulous pre-amp though.

I'm sure HiFi Dave and Paul at RFC know which pre's work well with M608's in a different price band to the AP11, if you can work your way up to the AP11 eventually, I recommend you do.

As a precautionary note, I would NOT use Litz/braided speaker cable with Albarry amps, Neil told me not to and it says so in the instruction manual, there are plenty of other superb speaker cables out there.

I hope you find something that will let you hear the qualities of the 608's.

enjoy your music

regards Al

[Audioman]

I had a Spectral DMC 12 pre-amp which was a £5k unit and very good it was too, but the Albarry AP11 had a better phono stage, so I bought it, then I heard the upgraded model and IMHO it was a marked improvement, livelier, more tuneful and a beautiful bass line, that's what I'm using now.

The only pre-amp I have heard better than the AP11 is the Nagra Jazz, but it is £9K and I don't think it has a phono stage, fabulous pre-amp though.

I'm sure HiFi Dave and Paul at RFC know which pre's work well with M608's in a different price band to the AP11, if you can work your way up to the AP11 eventually, I recommend you do.

As a precautionary note, I would NOT use Litz/braided speaker cable with Albarry amps, Neil told me not to and it says so in the instruction manual, there are plenty of other superb speaker cables out there.

I hope you find something that will let you hear the qualities of the 608's.

enjoy your music

regards Al

Thanks Al. It's a pity and a surprise that Albarry don't do an active/passive pre without the phono. Though I haven't heard it some of the alternatives may be better. I'm wondering if the pre section is a development of their old passive stage in any case. The 608's are certainly sensitive enough to work with a passive and after running in the sound is far from lacking body given I am using a cheap phono stage at the present. I'm confident an arm upgrade (SME309) plus better phono stage is the way to go with a passive. The merit of the AP11 would hinge on how good the phono stage is for me so at the price it's got to be better than Longdog or close Aurorasound Vida. With a passive less should be more. Having checked specs on some valve pres including the Croft they should be electrically compatible given the outputs are less than 1/10 the M608 input impedence. Trying a cheap passive makes sense until I can audition the more expensive alternatives properly.

As far as cables are concerned I am temporarily using the twisted stuff but it is not strictly a Litz design being 4 twisted lengths of multistrand copper (rather different from my Kimber interconnect). I am ordering some NVA LS3 (1m biwire) as replacements. As so often I am getting diametrically opposed views on everything.

Paul.