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The Grand Wazoo
31-05-2009, 23:39
Bent Audio Mu Step-Up Transformers
This is a long tale of a journey I made to find the best possible unit to go between my Koetsu Black cartridge & Audio Research SP8.

Introduction (or would that be a Pre-pre-amble?)
Step- up transformers are tricky devices to pin down. Dealers rarely stock a wide range for you to audition and the results you get are highly dependant on the cartridge and pre-amp you’re using, making a home loan or a very trusted advisor essential. Your choice of cartridge is likely to change quite often because they have a finite life which may shortened by their incredible fragility. All of this makes the market a bit of a minefield for the hapless buyer.

Background
For those who don’t know, a step-up does the job of boosting the tiny signal from a moving coil cartridge up to a level that a moving magnet phono stage can deal with. It’s a passive component which uses some of the (relatively) abundant current present in the signal from an MC cartridge, converting it into enough voltage (which is not abundant) for the MM stage to work with. This is done by taking advantage of the strange phenomenon of transformers which boosts voltage in proportion to the ratio of the number of turns of wire on its input compared to those on its output.

A step-up is different to a head amp, which uses active (and, therefore, powered) circuitry.

Both approaches have their advantages and disadvantages, and wax and wane in their popularity. I tend to agree with the view that a good step-up can have the ability to portray very fine detail and dynamics better than an active device………but, there are some very good active devices out there too.

Of course, if you have a high output moving coil or a moving magnet, none of this stuff need bother you at all & you can laugh at us poor casualties who need another link in an already long chain (along with all the cables & connectors that go with it).

With step-up transformers, there are more complications involved; not least is that of the number of turns your transformers have should give you enough, but not too much, extra gain to appropriately bridge the gap between the cartridge & phono-stage – too much and you could end up with excessive noise – too little and it’s too quiet. If it’s wrong in either direction, you risk having to change the volume every time you change to or from your phono input and all the problems that can give you (such as low flying speaker cones if you forget).

The next hiccup you face is that of cartridge loading. You see, every cartridge likes to work into a particular resistance (or load). Most MM stages are (or very close to) 47 K ohm resistance and most MM cartridges like to see this load – so that’s easy to arrange. Moving coils are fussy, cantankerous beasts and usually like something completely different from the load that the phono stage shows them. So, to optimise everything, you have to intervene by sticking a resistor of an appropriate value in the way. Cartridge manufacturers often give a recommendation, but requirements are liable to differ from system to system – experimentation often pays off.

My Dilemma
I’m a long-term Koetsu Black user (I’m on my third one) and my pre-amp is an Audio Research SP8 which is an all valve (including power supply) design. It has a very, very good MM phono stage, that even after all these years, sees off many modern designs. The output of the standard SP8 is enormous & I swear it could drive some high sensitivity speakers without a power amp. For an MC cartridge, the Koetsu has quite a healthy output and with the gain turned up a good bit, everything sounded great, with no excess noise – even with an ear right up to a tweeter. The trouble is that I was always terrified that I might switch to CD or tuner without first backing off the gain – I did so, once or twice, & the neighbours weren’t happy. So, I had to find a way of matching the gain of the phono input to the line stages without compromising the fantastic sound I was getting. This was before I got my Accuphase CD player & tuner, which both have variable gain outputs.

The Search
So, I looked at step-up devices & head amps, but the taxman got to me first & I settled for a cheap option – a Hi-Fi News Blackhead, which functionally did the job, but was a bit lacking in the sound quality department. In the meantime I did a lot of research – reading and talking to people about their experiences, getting brief opportunities of listening to various devices. After all this, I still didn’t know which would be the best approach – active or passive. Then, after a while, I got to the point where I felt I could try a few things out.

At first, I tried three different step-up devices: an EAR – The Head, an Audio Innovations Series 1000 and a home made job, assembled from some microphone transformers. I didn’t feel like any of them approached the sound I had been getting from the original high gain set up, so I kept looking and tried God knows how many other transformers – several more EAR’s, Quicksilver, Koetsu, Audio Note, more home brewed mic trannies, home brewed S&B’s etc, etc…….with nothing really being fully up to my expectations for one reason or another. I discovered one thing, though; these things can be a bit tricky to move on if you’re not happy with them. My finances wouldn’t allow me to buy something new till I’d sold the one I’d rejected, so the process was very long winded.

I couldn’t decide on a transformer, so I looked at active devices – an LFD MC1 phono-stage firing into a line input on the SP8 and a Conrad Johnson head amp (I can’t remember the model) which used Nuvistor valves. The CJ was quite good, and even better when I fixed the broken ‘suspension’ (the circuit was designed to be hanging – or bouncing – in mid air, suspended by elastic bands which had snapped), but the LFD was the winner & I snapped it up. I lived with this for years and loved it, in fact, I still own it. I hankered after a better LFD and started saving up the pennies. One night I felt like tinkering, so I put the Koetsu into the SP8’s onboard phono stage again & was reminded just how magical the combination was. So, it was back to the drawing board! I spent some time experimenting with different valves in the SP8 & found a fantastic combination of Mullard CV4004’s & JAN 5751’s. Pretty soon after, there was the inevitable glass of wine induced memory lapse over input switching, causing tense relations with neighbours & we were right back where we started again!!

Bingo! (Finding My Holy Grail).
Then I started hearing things about the Bent Audio Mu step-up, which was made with S&B transformers. Initially, I discounted them because I’d already tried S&B’s, then I heard a set & couldn’t work out why they sounded different – until I discovered they were wound with different wire.

Not only that but, by now, there was the option of copper or silver.

There was an option of 1:5, 1:10 or 1:20 step-up ratios – which give 14, 20 or 26 dB gain.

Another option allowed switching between two of the taps.

There was the cheaper and, potentially, more fun option of buying a kit of parts.

The pound was looking extremely good against the dollar.

…………………..interesting!

I got in touch with John Chapman at Bent Audio & it turned out that the kit was no longer available.
John took the refreshing approach that the system rather than his profit & loss statement defined whether copper or silver was better. He recognises that the silver version could sound better, but only within the context of an appropriate system. So there is no pressure whatsoever to spend more on the pricier option, merely good solid advice on what might be the most suitable option. My experiments with copper, silver plated copper & pure silver interconnects had already told me that too much silver in the system was not good, so I placed an order for a set of 1:20 coppers (26dB gain) without the switching. 1:20 is the same setting as the Koetsu transformer & loading can be adjusted by adding resistors to binding posts on top of the units. I’m not bothered about switching or other fripperies, as I only have one cartridge. If, at some time in the future, I need another gain ratio, then the appropriate tap can be selected and soldered from the spare unconnected ones inside the units.

By now, S&B were producing the Music First unit at several times what John was asking for his model despite the fact that he was shipping from Vancouver!!

At this point, there was a delay, because S&B started making life difficult for John after collaboration in a project to jointly market Bent Audio’s pre-amp fell foul of a difference of opinion in how products should be retailed. Being the true gent that he is, John will speak no ill will of them, despite much of his business being thrown into upheaval. The upshot was that he no longer had access to any more transformers & the price of those that he’d committed to kept ratcheting up & up. Despite all of this, he honoured the price he had quoted me (did I mention he’s a gent of the first order?)

So, after a wait of several months, mainly caused by the trans-continental shenanigans my trannies arrived. John also attaches transformers to his burn-in kit - what he calls ‘the cooker’ for a long period before he ships them. John tells me they were the last pair made with S&B’s (though I’ve heard others claim they own the last pair, not that I really give a stuff!).


Gotcha! - The arrival
The first thing to strike you is their size, weight & the meticulous way that they’re put together. The S&B cans are each swathed in Sorbothane & housed in a three & a half inch diameter, four inch high black anodised cylinder with quarter inch thick sides.


http://img39.imageshack.us/img39/9650/imgp1682.jpg

Units with CD case for scale
http://img43.imageshack.us/img43/780/imgp1683.jpg


Exiting from the top of each is a captive cable made from shielded Continuous Cast copper with PTFE insulation, directly connected inside to the transformer tap and terminated in an RCA Bullet plug. The cable is short at eight inches in order to keep the signal path as short as possible, so the units sit behind your pre-amp. On top of each unit is a good quality RCA socket, and a knurled earth post.

http://img37.imageshack.us/img37/6093/imgp1679.jpg

There are also two binding posts for clamping loading resistors, should they be required. On the underside are six small feet and also included was a pack of 12 pairs of resistors of varying values to facilitate loading the cartridge.

Top of unit, showing connection hardware & with a cartridge loading resistor attached
http://img39.imageshack.us/img39/7164/imgp1677.jpg

I’d already made up a pair of cables to use for earthing the units to my SP8, so I was ready to go – I found that connection was dead simple, but placement was a bit tricky because of those short captive leads.

Earth cables attached with banana plugs (commoned at pre-amp end), for ease of connection
http://img5.imageshack.us/img5/3844/imgp1686w.jpg

Eventually, I settled on an arrangement that worked & I fired everything up with no resistor between the binding posts. I think the album I chose to play was ‘The Greatest’ by Cat Power, I switched the arm cable from the Mu’s & gave a couple of tracks a whizz with the Koetsu into the LFD. It sounded just great as usual, but then I put the new trannies in circuit and………well, shit-me-britches if this wasn’t the best sound I’d ever heard in my own home – maybe something else was at work - the mains or psychology maybe, but it seemed even better than I remembered the sound with it direct into the phono-stage.


Optimisation
After a few days of hi-fi clichés like rediscovering record collections, veils being lifted, untold amounts of new detail on well known records etc, I started playing with loading resistors in an effort to find the optimum value. The results of doing this are well documented elsewhere, but I was surprised at the large differences that this simple change can make to the sound. On measurement, it transpired that my SP8 was not a tiny way off the 47 K standard that I’d been led to expect, so, some calculation was required to find the actual resistance that each value was showing the cartridge – I wanted to try two extremes around the value that Koetsu load their own step-up with (~100 ohm). The actual job is incredibly simple – much more so than with many other devices. Dip switches on the underside or under the bonnet? No thanks! You just slip your chosen resistor between the binding posts & spin them down. It takes literally a couple of seconds for each channel & you can do it while you’re playing a disc, so you can instantly hear the effect. The general rule seems to be that a higher value will bring up the treble a little and give a slightly more open sound – too much, & you get an effect that John Chapman calls “A little zippy”(!!). A value that’s too low removes some life and presence from the sound. These changes are immediately identifiable and obvious to anyone with a pair of ears. Once I’d tried the two extreme values, I moved up & down the range in progressively smaller jumps till I found the value that seemed to give the best balance. I then left these resistors in-line for several days and thoroughly got to know the sound before I did anything else.

The next step was to remove the resistors, using the trannies as supplied & assess whether it was better without them at all. I’m really glad I did this because the sound was clearly better without them in-line. Next up I decided to try several different brands of resistor of that value in order to see whether it was component quality that was making the difference. I assembled a collection of different brands and though there was a clear difference between each, I felt that the sound was always better with none connected, so that’s how it’s stayed ever since.



The search for my ideal was definitely long and pretty expensive all told, but I learnt such a lot that I feel it really was worthwhile. Not to mention the fact that I ended up with a superb solution to my problem. My Mu’s aren’t as flexible as some other options out there, due to their lack of switching, but the sound is improved because of it. After all, most of us only use one cartridge & it’s easy enough to make the changes you may require if you swap for a different cartridge. How do they sound? Well….they don’t. That’s all I can say! They’re just a great piece of hi-fi & one of the best buys I’ve ever made.

Since all this, John’s been testing many different transformers to try to find an alternative & I believe he’s found one now. He said he’d not use anything that sounded worse than his old model – preferring to lose the income than to supply an inferior model. Now that’s a measure of the guy. (Did I mention that he’s also a true gent?)

Barry
01-06-2009, 00:55
Once again another excellent write up Chris.

The whole business of using stepup transformers (SUT) is a bit of a minefield. SUTs, like all audio transformers, are designed to transform impedances and it is that consideration that determines the turns ratio (or voltage gain). Good SUTs are also designed to be used between specific source and load impedances. Quite often the manufacturer does not (or chooses not to) give this information, so the unwary can often select a transformer which appears to have a suitable turns ratio, but has no knowledge either of the impedance of the windings or of the terminating impedances. These problems often arise if microphone transformers are used as moving coil SUTs.

Your Brent Audio Mu transformer with a 1:20 turns ratio, transforms the nominal 47KOhm impedance of the phono input of your SP-8 to 118Ohm. The ratio of this load impedance to the 4Ohm source impedance of the Koetsu is ~ 30x, which is about right. It also lies in the range 50Ohm to 1KOhm as recommended by Koetsu. Additional loading of the transformer secondary using resistors will reduce the effective load impedance to less that 100Ohms, which I believe is the minimum load a moving cartridge should see.

The 20x voltage gain also boosts the 0.36mV output of the Koetsu Black to a healthy 7.2mV.

Regards
Barry

Marco
01-06-2009, 07:45
An excellent read, Chris, which I'm sure many people will find highly informative :)

As you know I'm a big fan of SUTs in conjunction with low-output MCs and high quality valve MM phono stages. When you get the 'relationship' so right, like you have, the resulting sound can be breathtaking.

However, I think properly designed and matched head amps also have a balance of virtues which can be equally as beguiling.

The reason I mention this is because I've recently been playing with my Denon HA-500 head amp and comparing it with the A23 SUT in conjunction with my various DL-103s, and the former definitely has a 'magic' all of its own.

The HA-500 was obviously designed to match the 103 by Denon, so it's no wonder that the combination of the two work well, but it's probably the only head amp I've heard which I feel gets it right, musically, as so many I've tried before have been dreadful (all 'hi-fi' and no music), so I think that when done well, the potential of active head amps with matched MCs is excellent.

The problem is, who builds a decent head amp today? The only one I know of which is readily available in the UK is the Graham Slee Elevator EXP, and IME that's no great shakes. The HA-500 is from the late 70s and was a 'high-end' item in its day, costing some £550, which was quite a lot of cash in those days. I intend to upgrade it with modern high quality components, which should lift its performance even further, as no doubt some of the 30+ year old 'internals' could be bettered by their modern counterparts.

Watch this space for a review when the mods have been carried out!

Thanks again for a most interesting article - keep up the good work :cool:

Marco.

Spectral Morn
01-06-2009, 10:36
Hi Chris


No excuses now....that is a fabulous piece, well written, with just the right amount of technical info.

I am looking forward to more of your reviews;)...some time in the future.


Regards D S D L

Sand Dancin Donkey Walker
01-06-2009, 13:10
Hi Chris

Just wish to add my congratulations to your write up. Well written and good photo's.

Wel done :respect:

Andy - SDDW

The Grand Wazoo
01-06-2009, 17:23
An excellent read, Chris, which I'm sure many people will find highly informative..

Glad you enjoyed it - I saw little point in it being a 'this is what I've got & it's better than all the others' type piece, so I thought a little background might be interesting & perhaps informative.


As you know I'm a big fan of SUTs in conjunction with low-output MCs and high quality valve MM phono stages. When you get the 'relationship' so right, like you have, the resulting sound can be breathtaking.

However, I think properly designed and matched head amps also have a balance of virtues which can be equally as beguiling.

Yes, as I noted the popularity of these things tends to change with other trends - The SUT seems to have risen in profile along with the valve amp thing. I have no particular affinity with any particular type of technology, simply looking for the best solution for my situation was my goal.

Many folk note that cartridge manufacturers generally make SUT's, so this must be the most correct method. - I counter that by saying cartridge makers wind wire coils, so they do what they know best! - (that quote about if the only tool you have is a hammer, then every problem looks like a nail springs to mind).


The reason I mention this is because I've recently been playing with my Denon HA-500 head amp and comparing it with the A23 SUT in conjunction with my various DL-103s, and the former definitely has a 'magic' all of its own.

The HA-500 was obviously designed to match the 103 by Denon, so it's no wonder that the combination of the two work well, but it's probably the only head amp I've heard which I feel gets it right, musically, as so many I've tried before have been dreadful (all 'hi-fi' and no music), so I think that when done well, the potential of active head amps with matched MCs is excellent.

I tried the Denon, but found it a little warm & cuddly with the Koetsu & the SP8 - apart from that, though, I could see plenty of things it seemed to get right.


I intend to upgrade it with modern high quality components, which should lift its performance even further, as no doubt some of the 30+ year old 'internals' could be bettered by their modern counterparts.

That would be an interesting prospect.


Watch this space for a review when the mods have been carried out!

I will!!

Cheers

Beechwoods
01-06-2009, 17:42
I'm constantly impressed at the standard of writing in SOG. This is fantastic, Chris. Obviously the result of a good deal of hard work. Thank you.

The Grand Wazoo
01-06-2009, 23:41
Well, thanks one & all, for the kind words.

Now here are some words in return to everyone involved in any capacity whatsoever in the forum:

Until I found AoS, I've been singularly unimpressed with every hi-fi forum I've ever seen. This is mainly because, I guess, they're inhabited, in part, by a small number of folks, who're more interested in scoring points than having lively & intelligent discussion about the subject.

This place is very different (despite the fact that I still bear the scars from a couple of altercations here) and I'd never have dreamt of doing the pieces I've done (which have taken a pretty considerable amount of time & energy) for any other audience.

That's some accolade for us all, 'cos I'm a lazy bastard!!

So, well done everybody - let's keep doing what we can to make this place The Hi-Fi Forum.

Barry
02-06-2009, 00:24
Like a lot of other ‘divisions’ in hi-fi: analogue v. digital; valve v. solid-state amplification; belt drive v. direct drive; panel speakers v. cabinet speakers, there also seem to be division between SUTs and active devices. Both sides have their strength and weaknesses. There is no right or wrong here necessarily, as long as the designs are made well.

SUTs have the attraction in being simple and uncomplicated compared to active preamps, but will only work well if they are properly chosen. In Chris’s case his Bent Audio Mu transformers are on paper very well matched to his Koetsu. The Audio Mu use Stevens & Billingham TX-103 transformers. According to their data sheet, when set to a 1:20 step up ratio, they will offer a load impedance to the Koetsu of 134Ω, which sits nicely within the 50Ω - 1kΩ range recommended by Koetsu. The suggested source impedance for the 1:20 setting is 1.25Ω-5Ω; again this matches the Black’s coil resistance of 5Ω.

Marco finds his A23 SUT to work well with the Denon 103. The transformers used in the A23 are, I believe, Haufe T-7883, (No-one seems to be sure and Haufe themselves will not say). Haufe supply a detailed data sheet. The transformers provide a step up ratio of 1:10, and will load the Denon with 495Ω. The Denon has a coil resistance of 40Ω, so the load offered is ~12 x the source impedance: about right. Importantly, the T-7883s are designed for a source impedance of 40Ω and a load impedance of 47kΩ. Again on paper they are ideally suited to the Denon 103.

If the Bent Audio Mu transformers are set to 1:10 step up ratio, they will present a load of 487Ω, however the suggested source impedance is now 5 - 20Ω, so they may not be so good working with the Denon’s 40Ω coil resistance.

Active preamps have the advantage that their performance is largely unaffected by the impedance of components attached to them, and the load impedance presented to the cartridge can be chosen at will. With a transformer one can only reduce the load impedance and increase the capacitance through shunting of the secondary windings. Active preamps have their own problems of noise amongst other things and require careful design of their power supplies to meet noise and signal overload requirements.

Over the years I have used several SUT designs and active designs and have found that it is usually a case of ‘horses for courses’, with my choice being determined by convenience and ear.

Barry

(By the way Marco, does this mean the honeymoon with the M3D is over?)

Marco
02-06-2009, 07:45
Well, thanks one & all, for the kind words.

Now here are some words in return to everyone involved in any capacity whatsoever in the forum:

Until I found AoS, I've been singularly unimpressed with every hi-fi forum I've ever seen. This is mainly because, I guess, they're inhabited, in part, by a small number of folks, who're more interested in scoring points than having lively & intelligent discussion about the subject.

This place is very different (despite the fact that I still bear the scars from a couple of altercations here) and I'd never have dreamt of doing the pieces I've done (which have taken a pretty considerable amount of time & energy) for any other audience.

That's some accolade for us all, 'cos I'm a lazy bastard!!


Well credit where credit's due, mate! We're all members of a community here, and you're an integral part of that; the 'hi-fi forum' bit is just our official 'face' :)

We look forward to reading many more articles of a similar standard in future - you see, you've started something now, so you'll need to keep your arse in gear! :eyebrows:

Anyway...


I tried the Denon, but found it a little warm & cuddly with the Koetsu & the SP8 - apart from that, though, I could see plenty of things it seemed to get right.


I'm not surprised, mate. As Barry has outlined, the Koetsu has rather different electrical requirements to the 103, and its inherent sonic signature is also equally as different, having owned a Black in the past.

The combination of the HA-500 and DL-103 is a superb one, not "warm & cuddly" in the slightest, and in some ways superior to what's achievable with the A23. It's why I'm going to have the HA-500 modified and updated, which I'm sure will release some latent potential.

Barry,


(By the way Marco, does this mean the honeymoon with the M3D is over?)


LOL, no! What gave you that idea?

I've got six different cartridges, and a detachable headshell arm, so when the mood takes me I like to take different ones 'out for a spin', so to speak. It just happens that I've been playing with the stock 103 and 103R recently, so I decided to wake up the HA-500 :smoking:

The M3D will most likely go back in again later today. It's nice to have access to different presentations with music!

The weather here in the UK over the last few days has been scorching hot, so I've put the Tannoy Devons out in the garden and have been listening to some tunes as I work. With the 1210 and 103 at the helm, the sound is fantastic through the Devon's 12" dual-concentric drivers, and I have no problem whatsoever filling the garden with sound, as I sip a nice chilled glass of Chablis - later of course; it's a little too early now! :cheers:

Marco.

Barry
02-06-2009, 15:49
Barry,



LOL, no! What gave you that idea?

I've got six different cartridges, and a detachable headshell arm, so when the mood takes me I like to take different ones 'out for a spin', so to speak. It just happens that I've been playing with the stock 103 and 103R recently, so I decided to wake up the HA-500 :smoking:

The M3D will most likely go back in again later today. It's nice to have access to different presentations with music!

The weather here in the UK over the last few days has been scorching hot, so I've put the Tannoy Devons out in the garden and have been listening to some tunes as I work. With the 1210 and 103 at the helm, the sound is fantastic through the Devon's 12" dual-concentric drivers, and I have no problem whatsoever filling the garden with sound, as I sip a nice chilled glass of Chablis - later of course; it's a little too early now! :cheers:

Marco.

Glad to hear it - especially as Neil has asked me to research a piece on early American cartridges of that era. I too like to try different cartridges: I have 12 and that's why I have 4 turntables. Still can't get over King (kcc123), with his thirty odd cartridges.

By the way are there many Decca fans out there? - I have a love/hate relationship with them: they're fussy, need to be carefully set up and behave like no other cartridge that I know. It is a project that I had reserved for retirement - well I'm there now, so maybe I should pull my finger out and make a start. That and revisit the M55E!

Mention of Chablis has reminded me that I ought make a couple of postings on the 'What are you drinking now?' thread.

Enjoy the Summer
Barry

Barry
02-06-2009, 16:07
Until I found AoS, I've been singularly unimpressed with every hi-fi forum I've ever seen. This is mainly because, I guess, they're inhabited, in part, by a small number of folks, who're more interested in scoring points than having lively & intelligent discussion about the subject.



Thoroughly agree with you Chris!

AoS is quite unique amongst all the other hi-fi fora. None of them are anyway near as informative, knowledgeable, or as friendly as AoS.

I'm impressed by the number of posts made concerning the 'software' - the music; which, after all, is what its all about.

AoS is a quality forum - just look at the Ethos section. How many other fora base their ethos around the concepts of Areto, Eunoia and Phronesis? (I expect that members of a certain forum being discussed at the moment would think that these are the names of some new Linn products - but that would be thread jumping!)

Regards
Barry

The Grand Wazoo
02-06-2009, 16:39
AoS is a quality forum - just look at the Ethos section. How many other fora base their ethos around the concepts of Areto, Eunoia and Phronesis? (I expect that members of a certain forum being discussed at the moment would think that these are the names of some new Linn products - but that would be thread jumping!)

Ha-ha! Harris who? Harris Tottle...........never 'eard of 'im mate!

There's a nice philosophical connection with what you write & the name of the step-up in the original post.

Mu: No Thing / Nothingness Japanese
......or as John Chapman says "Out of Nothing Comes The Possibility For Everything"

Barry
02-06-2009, 16:48
There's a nice philosophical connection with what you write & the name of the step-up in the original post.

Mu: No Thing / Nothingness Japanese
......or as John Chapman says "Out of Nothing Comes The Possibility For Everything"

Very Zen - I'll run it past 'Arry next time I bump into him in Athens.

(I did wonder what the Kanji squiggle meant on the side of the can)

Barry

Mike Reed
03-06-2009, 21:52
CHRIS,

I have to say that was an enthralling write-up of your SUT journey; whatever else, you have remarkable tenacity.

Mere mortals such as I could never embark upon such an odyssey, and I do remember the advice on the MUs you gave me a year or so back. However, it does surprise me that you tried Koetsu's own (very expensive) sut, which, ostensibly at least, was designed to get the best out of most of their carts., only to consign it to the 'also rans'.

Possibly the rather high 600 microvolts output of the Black may have been a factor.

Regarding the comments about A.O.S. differing from other forums (not 'fora', according to my New O.E.D.), I couldn't agree more. I liken it to a gentleman's club, as opposed to Speaker's Corner (or the House of Commons?).

DSJR
03-06-2009, 22:14
All these people with shedloads of dosh in this day and age..........

Looking at the excellent observations above and Barry's equally excellent technical backup I think I know what the main cause of my MC problems are with the Croft and Ortofon T5's (with Sony badges on). Quality of reproduction aside, the gain at 20x (26db) is far too high and I suspect even 5x gain would be ok, although 10x would be better with matching volume control settings between CD and LP.

How much are the bent Audio trannies? I suspect a good few hundred quid, looking at them... :scratch:

The Grand Wazoo
03-06-2009, 22:31
Hi Mike,
How's it going?


CHRIS,
I have to say that was an enthralling write-up of your SUT journey; whatever else, you have remarkable tenacity.

Well, thanks for your kind remarks! Actually, the whole process sort of grew into an obsession, which I quite enjoyed.


However, it does surprise me that you tried Koetsu's own (very expensive) sut, which, ostensibly at least, was designed to get the best out of most of their carts., only to consign it to the 'also rans'.

I didn't buy the thing (thank God!!) but I had it on loan for a very long period while a work acquaintence was doing a spell abroad. I think it would be fantastic in the right system (& I've heard it behave so), but it was not right for mine.

It overdid the 'Koetsu romance' just a bit too much, making the system sound (& I think I used this term when we discussed this between ourselves) a little old fashioned - in the warm & woolly sense. I think may well have been as a result of the combination of the cartridge/SUT with my SP8. Perhaps if I'd been using Telefunken valves instead of the Mullards I favour, and/or more silver cabling, it all may have clicked. But then, on the other hand, it may not have!

The Grand Wazoo
03-06-2009, 22:42
All these people with shedloads of dosh in this day and age..........

Ha-ha, that wasn't this day & age my friend!!! At that time I was earning more than twice what I get now.


How much are the bent Audio trannies? I suspect a good few hundred quid, looking at them... :scratch

I have the printouts of John's emails here now, & I scrawled the currency converted figure in the margin of one . I paid John a base price of £445. Then there was shipping & the duty man got his bit, so it probably ended up at around £600 - £650. At the time the silver version was £700, but the £:$ conversion at the time was pretty much as good as it's ever been.

I don't know if the new version is available or not - there were some long delays a while back. Take a peek at his website - it's fascinating, especially if you're into DIY audio.

Barry
03-06-2009, 23:21
Regarding the comments about A.O.S. differing from other forums (not 'fora', according to my New O.E.D.), I couldn't agree more. I liken it to a gentleman's club, as opposed to Speaker's Corner (or the House of Commons?).

Second declension Latin nouns ending with -um take their plural as -a (I had a classical education). According to my OED, Collins and the American Funk and Wagnall's Standard Dictionary, both plurals are acceptable. Surprisingly, Fowler is silent on this matter.

Since all of this has nothing whatsoever to do with music and it's reproduction, and in view of the fact that AoS itself uses the plural forums, I will defer to the majority.

Regards
Barry

The Grand Wazoo
03-06-2009, 23:42
Second declension Latin nouns ending with -um take their plural as -a (I had a classical education). According to my OED, Collins and the American Funk and Wagnall's Standard Dictionary, both plurals are acceptable. Surprisingly, Fowler is silent on this matter.

Since all of this has nothing whatsoever to do with music and it's reproduction, and in view of the fact that AoS itself uses the plural forums, I will defer to the majority.

Regards
Barry

Barry,
Ha-ha!! Did you bump into 'Arry out in the street or something?
I always want to type fora, but think folks will think I'm a pretentious arse!! - maybe I am.

Now for a (short, for the sake of my blood pressure) list:

I also cringe as I see the word 'than' evolving into 'then' (usually as a result of our friends across the water).

A Schedule is now a scedule.

An integrated amp is now an intergrated amp.



...........were you taught that in Latin, the letter 'v' is pronounced 'w'?

Barry
04-06-2009, 00:11
.... folks will think I'm a pretentious arse!!

...........were you taught that in Latin, the letter 'v' is pronounced 'w'?

I think I have already gained a reputation for being a pedant. Some of my friends think I should have been christened 'Ped', Ped Hunt - get it? Groan! (Things could have been worse - I might have been christened Isaac, I'll leave it to you to work that one out!).

Yes, I was taught to pronounce Latin 'v' as 'w' and 'c' as 'k'. The Church changed the pronounciation, presumably it made chanting easier.

My particular pet hate is the creeping American use of nouns as verbs: as in to 'author' a book and then later to 'critique' it. Ugh!

Pedant first, pretentious arse? - well I'm working my way towards that one.

Regards
Barry

The Grand Wazoo
04-06-2009, 00:27
Yes, I was taught to pronounce Latin 'v' as 'w' and 'c' as 'k'.

Me too


My particular pet hate is the creeping American use of nouns as verbs: as in to 'author' a book and then later to 'critique' it. Ugh!

I'll be trialling that theory, & when I've finished we'll party.

REM
04-06-2009, 08:47
(Things could have been worse - I might have been christened Isaac, I'll leave it to you to work that one out!).



Or Mike :lolsign:

Barry
05-06-2009, 00:55
Regarding the comments about A.O.S. differing from other forums (not 'fora', according to my New O.E.D.), I couldn't agree more. I liken it to a gentleman's club, as opposed to Speaker's Corner (or the House of Commons?).

Nice idea Mike, though I would hope that AoS is not exclusive or elitist as some gentlemen's clubs can be.

Barry

DSJR
05-06-2009, 08:35
Back to topic and a grovelling request.

As even the Puresound T20 trannie at trade is going to be a bit more than I can afford right now, has anyone got something like an Ortofon T20 they have no use for? For this purpose I'd rather have an SUT and super-wide bandwidth isn't a necessity in my system - as long as the upper-bass to lower top is good...

Mike Reed
05-06-2009, 19:00
Hello, Dave,

I've got Ortofon in-line m/c transformers in my loft somewhere.

Nope, sorry, they're the T5s, still in their box with the price tag affixed, as I bought them in the early seventies.

You must be referring to an SUT, (silly me), but I wasn't aware that Ortofon made one.

Should get around to advertising them, as they punch well above their weight and I guess are ideal for a starter valve-based m/c system.