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Marco
13-05-2009, 09:01
{Moved from the M3D thread in Analogue Art}

Btw, Dave I'm playing with a pair of Tannoy Devons at the moment (with a view to buying some Berkleys) and I love them to bits. They are so addictive sounding, and the level of musical insight into recordings is quite frankly breathtaking!! :smoking: ;)

Marco.

Mike
13-05-2009, 10:55
Btw, I'm playing with a pair of Tannoy Devons at the moment (with a view to buying some Berkleys) and I love them to bits. They are so addictive sounding, and the level of musical insight into recordings is quite frankly breathtaking!! :smoking: ;)

Marco.

Bloody hell Marco... if you get any more 'retro' you'll be wearing tights and wandering about with your own traveling minstrel!

:lolsign:

Marco
13-05-2009, 11:22
I do already, dahling... You should see me shtrutting my shtuff on a Saturday night in my sequined blouson, shlinky silk chemise and leather hotpants, sporting more than a cheeky wee grin :eyebrows: :dance: :rolleyes: :mental: :closed:

Mikey, if 'all-retro' sounds like this then sock it to me baby! :gig:

Marco.

Marco
13-05-2009, 12:54
Dave,


Marco, I'm glad you love the Devon's. They have a magic all their own and had been all but forgotten in the mele for the big ones.


I love 'em. I'm addicted to their musical insight and level of analysis - you can tell why these were used in studios, and I mean that in a complimentary way!

I'm considering using them for forthcoming garden parties, barbecues, etc, in the summer, as they're small and light enough just to pop on the lawn to provide some tunes. I've bought 30M of good quality pro-audio speaker cable, so it'll just be long enough to get them out there, connected to my main system - should be fun :)

The Devons were mainly to assess if I liked the sound of classic Tannoys and if they'd work in my system with the view to getting a bigger pair if that was the case. They most certainly do, so that's why I'm trying the Berkleys (going to audition a pair later in the week). If they're not suitable then it'll be Ardens or perhaps 12" Canterburys.


Berkeleys can be frighteningly thuddy and boxy and the surround foam-life on all the HPD's has been done to death already. I really think the DMT's being later and with more solid boxes would be the best choice - far better developed after Tannoy went to town updating the concept in the early eighties.....

Noted. I'll let you know what I think when I've had a listen! :cool:

Marco.

Marco
13-05-2009, 16:07
Btw, Dave, on the Tannoy front I'm also going to check out a pair of 12" Monitor Golds in vintage Tannoy Chatsworth (rectangular) cabinets, and 15" Monitor Golds in Lancaster cabinets.

What's your view on those? :)

Marco.

Mike
13-05-2009, 16:27
and 15" Monitor Golds in Lancaster cabinets.

What's your view on those?

I hope you've had an extension built! :uhho:

Marco
13-05-2009, 16:52
LOL! :eyebrows:

Lancaster cabs aren't that big. Here is an example:

http://www.hilberink.nl/codehans/tannoy123.htm

Tannoy Monitor Gold drivers:

http://www.hilberink.nl/codehans/tannoy4.htm

It's possible that after this the Spendors might be for sale. Are you interested in a 'special deal'? ;)

Marco.

DSJR
13-05-2009, 22:35
Btw, on the Tannoy front I'm also going to check out a pair of 12" Monitor Golds in vintage Tannoy Chatsworth (rectangular) cabinets, and 15" Monitor Golds in Lancaster cabinets.

What's your view on those? :)

Marco.

I think I'd rather have the Chatsworths to be honest, but I remember both having a "sting" in the EHF, which could be tamed by your amps and the crossover settings I reckon. The bass of the HPD models was fuller and a little more extended, but sensitivity suffered a tad I understand, although they're all very efficient. You may have a difficulty choosing between them and the Spendors, as they will both show each others strengths and weaknesses methinks.

I've never heard Canterbury's :(

Mike
13-05-2009, 22:41
It's possible that after this the Spendors might be for sale. Are you interested in a 'special deal'?

Hmmm... maybe, we'll see. ;)

Marco
14-05-2009, 07:23
Dave, I've been advised that Monitor Golds, Reds, etc, have a different presentation to the HPD-based units and that these are the 'proper' Tannoys, so will probably give the Berkleys a miss. Therefore, the 12" Monitor Golds in Chatsworth cabinets seem the most appealing so far, particularly after reading this:

http://members.tripod.com/fn8142b/images/chatsworthrt1.jpg

and this: http://members.tripod.com/fn8142b/images/chatsworthrt.jpg

It seems that these cabinets were specifically designed to accommodate the 12" Monitor Golds (whilst keeping size down) and are high quality, which cabinets such as the Lancasters appear not to be, or at least not to the same degree as others.

Another option I have is a pair of 'Lockwood Major DU 386' with 15" Monitor Reds. Do you (or anyone else) have experience of the Lockwood-designed cabinets? They appear to have an excellent reputation.

Mikey, I'm sure you'll be following developments with interest so you I'll let you know if the Spendors become available. I know you liked 'em when you heard them :smoking:

Marco.

Marco
14-05-2009, 09:51
I've just seen a picture of the Lockwood Majors... These smilies just about some them up:

:lol: :lol: :eek: :eek: :dance: :dance: :guitar: :guitar: :fingers: :fingers: :rolleyes: :carrot: :carrot: :laugh: :uhho: :sofa: :mental: :gig:

Look what's in these babies: http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/2724/2377/1600/Tannoy%20red%20monitor.0.jpg

More info on Monitor Reds: http://44bx.com/tannoy/MonitorRed.html#anchor2160618

I'm off to alert the neighbours :eyebrows:

Marco.

Darrenw
14-05-2009, 15:40
bigger is better but the lancaster cabs are pretty fine - if you have the skills builing the cabs yerself can save a fortune - I wouldn;t ditch the lancaster cabs cos of what is on the internet - they ones i heard sounded great with 15 inch golds

15 inch golds or reds would be my choice, less convinced by the smaller drivers but that could just be expectation bias - all nice though

Darren

aquapiranha
14-05-2009, 17:29
Nice Marco, all that time listening to Ian's Canterbury's must have had an effect, and plus Ian was telling me how well they go with the copper amp.

Beechwoods
14-05-2009, 17:40
So are you going to be retiring your Spendors...?











... starts looking for change down the back of the sofa ;)

DSJR
14-05-2009, 20:02
Glad this is on a different thread....

Marco, the very first Tannoys I ever heard were the Chatsworths and Lancasters (at Radiolux in Watford, before B&O took over in that shop and just before KJ Watford took over all the better HiFi agencies from them). I remember the bass being very good, but the comments on the slight "sting" remain - this is the pepperpot and one of the things Tannoy fixed when the "Tulip waveguide" came in.

We had these two models very briefly at KJ for a month or two before the HPD series came on song, with much improved visuals (IMO) and a beefier bass and higher power handling (I read that the HPD drivers went into the last "old" range, so I may just have been listening to these drivers all along, I don't know...)

Whatever, these old speakers (if working properly) sound best on valve gear, rather than the brightly toned Crown D150 which I believe Angus MacKenzie used in his controvercial 1975 'Choice speaker review compilation.

Whatever you go for, the SP100's are damn fine boxes, with that full bodied power that characterises bigger speakers. Don't expect the pre-HPD Tannoys to have as much warmth, 'cos efficiency apparently came before bass extension on this era's products.

Regarding Lockwood Tannoys, I've been informed by at least two engineers who used them that they weren't up to much by the end of their lives - far too much cabinet colouration I understand. I suppose that if the boxes could be beefed up along modern thinking, you could get something really special..

Marco
14-05-2009, 20:48
Dave, I decided that it should have a thread of its own as there's liable to be some major speaker shenanigans ahead... :eyebrows:

Again, all noted, although I've heard that the Lockwood cabinets are meant to be better that some of the original Tannoy ones, but we'll see!

Beechy, TBH, if the Tannoy thing works out the SP100s will probably be traded in as part of the purchase - that's the way it's looking :)

Steve - yeah, it's all Ian's fault! :lol:

Nah, you know how good the Spendors are, but big Tannoys just do something special with music which I've never heard before with other speakers. The Devons I've got just now are by no means the best but they still have that 'Tannoy magic' about them and pack almighty punch for their size.

I think that something bigger would be a total riot in my room so I just have to investigate!! :cool:

Marco.

aquapiranha
14-05-2009, 20:51
Go for it Marco, I have heard some bloody big speakers work fine in rooms you would not expect them to. Ian's Canerburys are fantastic, but until I win the lottery I will have to make do with building the OB's (for which I now have all the drivers, just need the ply...)

i_should_coco
14-05-2009, 21:19
Big Tannoys == magic. For all their faults, they are immense fun to listen to. I love my GRFs to bits!

Horn loading is the way to go with these babies. :):):)

Marco
15-05-2009, 08:35
I can understand why, Pete! I've had the Spendors since 2002 and adored them to bits, so it's probably time for a change, and I love the 'old Tannoy' sound.

When I land a nice big pair of classic Tannoys (it remains to be seen yet which ones they'll be) they could well be my final pair of speakers. I don't change gear very often, especially speakers, so aside from perhaps adding an SP10 with a 12" Jelco (Dave has some nice ones he's refurbishing at the moment), that'll probably be me sorted for many years to come :cool:

Marco.

i_should_coco
15-05-2009, 09:09
Mine have actually grown on me - they sound better at home than they did at Scalford (though I was pretty happy with what they did there, no complaints). It did take a little while to get used to them after the Lowthers, which major on midrange coherence and I did miss that. In every other area, though, the Tannoys win.

The old cabinets tend to be a bit flimsy, the drivers really deserve better, but the risk there is that fixing them will lose the magic. The R-GRF design is very simple and I'm toying with the idea of getting someone like Avon Plywood to make up the bits for some more sturdy cabs.

HPDs in some decent copies should work very nicely too as a more cheaper option.

anthonyTD
15-05-2009, 09:49
hi marco,
just caught up with this thread, so the tannoy's in your system are a winner then???:eyebrows:
anthony,TD...

Marco
15-05-2009, 10:56
Anthony,

The Devons sound *very* different to how they did in your system for some bizarre reason... :scratch:

I think it must have been a mismatch with that silver cable of yours... I was right though, and could hear their potential, so the 'ol lugs haven't given up on me yet!

Ian was round yesterday and couldn't believe how good they sounded, simply perched lengthways on top of the Spendors :)

Obviously, I want to go for a bigger pair now but I may still be interested in the Devons for 'garden duties' :gig:

;)

Marco.

DSJR
15-05-2009, 18:14
If I wasn't so attached to the BC2's and having now bought two old but re-calibrated mk2 bass units for them I'd 'ave the Devons..

As for sounding different in different places, the Cheviot was the same, sounding as awful as the 'Choice review in 1976 in our dem room, yet quite excellent in client's homes, especially with Quad amps..

Marco, sell the Devons to HiFi Dave and get some DC2000's or 3000's for the garden. The latter will punch it out better IMO, and the vinyl finish is better for those purposes..

Marco
15-05-2009, 18:37
LOL... I can't, Dave - they belong to Anthony! I've just borrowed them :)

Marco.

hifi_dave
15-05-2009, 18:59
Marco,
You might be pleasantly surprised at how good a 'large' pair of Tannoy's can sound in a smallish room. One of my customers has a pair of the latest Canterbury in a room around 12 x 10 ft and they sound pretty spectacular. There is no sign of the boom or colouration you might expect, just tight, deep punchy bass, solid, tactile mid and believeable scale.

Over the years he has had all sorts in that room - huge ML's, Sonus Faber, Revel, Thiel, several Avalon's and JBL 4344 but he reckons the Canterbury's are head and shoulders better. These are for keeps and he is now working on a record playing system to complement them.

Marco
15-05-2009, 19:15
You might be pleasantly surprised at how good a 'large' pair of Tannoy's can sound in a smallish room. One of my customers has a pair of the latest Canterbury in a room around 12 x 10 ft and they sound pretty spectacular. There is no sign of the boom or colouration you might expect, just tight, deep punchy bass, solid, tactile mid and believeable scale.


Hi Dave,

Sounds fab - that's just what I'm looking for! My room is a little bigger, too, at 14.5 X 11 ft ;)

I know exactly what you mean, though - I've been enjoying this effect with the Spendors for years; now it's time to 'up the ante'... :eyebrows:

Marco.

anthonyTD
15-05-2009, 21:43
Anthony,

The Devons sound *very* different to how they did in your system for some bizarre reason... :scratch:

I think it must have been a mismatch with that silver cable of yours... I was right though, and could hear their potential, so the 'ol lugs haven't given up on me yet!

Ian was round yesterday and couldn't believe how good they sounded, simply perched lengthways on top of the Spendors :)

Obviously, I want to go for a bigger pair now but I may still be interested in the Devons for 'garden duties' :gig:

;)

Marco.

hi mate,
yes, you could be right, they did have a bit of a sting to them here, but they obviously do something right in your system so a worthwhile excercise.:)
anthony,TD...

Marco
15-05-2009, 22:50
Defo, matey. If nothing else it's allowed me to analyse the 'classic Tannoy thing' at home without having to take the risk of buying something and then finding out it's not suitable, which I'd hate.

There's a good chance that when you come up next time I'll have something rather naughty to listen to! ;)

That is if you can get in the room :eyebrows:

Marco.

alfie2902
16-05-2009, 17:15
Hey Marco,

Have you seen those Tannoy Glenair 15" in the Wam classifieds. Might be worth a look? If only i had the money & some nice valve amps!!!!

Cheers alfie

Marco
17-05-2009, 20:03
Hi Alfie,

Yes I have! A mate of mine has bought them, apparently. They're rather lovely but I'm after a vintage pair of Tannoys so it's got to be Monitor Golds or Reds :)

I'm taking a trip down south later in the week with a friend, and we're on a Tannoy mission, so hopefully I'll return with something suitably big and rather naughty! :eyebrows:

Marco.

Sand Dancin Donkey Walker
17-05-2009, 20:14
Hi Marco

Not read all this thread (lazy git I am) but the Tannoy Berkley's were the first proper speakers I owned, and still have fond memories of them, or more specifically the Duel Concentric’s. A mate of mine until recently had a pair of the Super Red's and they still did it for me. Though the Monitor Gold's are the one's to go for I think

I had a good listen to the big Tannoys at the Mega Bake Off earlier this year. They were everything I remembered and loved.

Have fun in your search, if they do it for you, there is nothing better.

Enjoy

Andy - SDDW

Marco
17-05-2009, 21:44
Cheers, Andy! In your experience, what's the difference between the Reds, 'Super Reds' (I presume these are the later ones with stiffened cone baskets?) and the Golds?

I'll probably have the option of either the later 15" Reds or Golds, so either you and/or or someone else give me some good reasons why I should go for one or the other! :)

Marco.

SP10
17-05-2009, 22:51
I do already, dahling... You should see me shtrutting my shtuff on a Saturday night in my sequined blouson, shlinky silk chemise and leather hotpants, sporting more than a cheeky wee grin :eyebrows: :dance: :rolleyes: :mental: :closed:

Mikey, if 'all-retro' sounds like this then sock it to me baby! :gig:

Marco.

Bet the sheep around Treludden are worried!:lol:
Wish there was a smilie of a trans drinking a Babycham ...with a cherry on a stick!:cool:

Marco
18-05-2009, 06:50
Hehehe... I think my neighbours will have more to worry about than the sheep when I become a 'big-boy' Tannoyista! Mind you, you'll probably be able to hear them in the valleys!! I'm looking forward to 30W Class A P/P into 95db 15" drivers :gig:

'The hills are alive with the sound of music', indeed... :eyebrows:

Marco.

Sand Dancin Donkey Walker
18-05-2009, 07:55
Hi Marco

Most of my listening has been with the HPD type drivers, in comparison these can be a touch un-refined, only had a listen to the Super Reds in a studio situation, and they were in a fairly near field monitor position. But they were excellent, great very large scale of sound, and quite extended frequency range. Considering these were listened to at close positions they really were good. A lot better than the HPD drives in Cheviot cabinets that were an alternative in the studio.

The Gold drivers are the ones to go for, these are what ended up in the studio, my mate was looking for accuracy but I was listening for musicality, we were both satisfied with the sound and enjoyed the results presented. to sum them up, very musical, satisfying, great scale of sound, fantastic with all vocals but they just it all just right. You can live with these for ever and never get sick of listening to them. After listening to I should co co's at the big bash, that just confirmed how good these speaker are, and most very underrated too.

If you would like the ultimate, try and find the Dreadnoughts. I got a brief listen to these in an un-familiar room, but flip me were they good, all the best bits of all the Tannoy range put together in one blooming massive cabinet, if you can accommodate them, buy them you won't regret it honest.

Have fun,

Andy - SDDW

shahsy
19-05-2009, 20:37
Marco,
I've been using a pair of Tannoy DMT 15's for a few years now and certainly don't plan to change them.

Nice choice if you go for it.

s

Marco
19-05-2009, 23:03
Hi Shahsy,

The options available at the moment are 'Lockwood Majors', see here (and also read the homepage for more info):

http://server15.sitewizard.co.uk/sites/lockwoodaudionew/images/lockwood4_lrg.jpg

with either 15" Monitor Golds or Super Reds - plus the cabinets are sealed units, not a front-ported reflex design as in the advert.

I have high hopes for these given that if you read here: http://44bx.com/tannoy/history.html

...you'll find this, which is particularly interesting:


What the world did not grasp was that most recorded music available was being produced on the Tannoy Dual Concentric using either Monitor Red's or Monitor Gold's. All the music at EMI including Abbey Road and most of the Decca Classical output was produced using Tannoy loudspeakers.

Such models as the Lockwood Major, Lockwood Universal played a very significant part in the development of the world's recorded music as these were bought almost entirely by the professional studios. For example, most of the successful records made by Mickey Most at RAK Records were produced on Lockwood Monitors with Tannoy Dual Concentric drivers.


Yummy - now that sounds very tempting! As ever though, the proof of the pudding will be in the listening...

Other options are 15" Monitor Golds or Super Reds in York or modern replica corner GRF cabinets.

Oh, decisions decisions! :eyebrows:

Marco.

pure sound
20-05-2009, 15:32
Other options are 15" Monitor Golds or Super Reds in York or modern replica corner GRF cabinets.



If Golds in GRF cabs is really an option, I'd take that straight away. Pete's rectangular GRF's are nice but the corner ones (repro or not) are the real deal (if you can get them up the stairs & into your room!)

Marco
20-05-2009, 17:45
Hi Guy,

It is one of my options - all will be thoroughly listened to and (hopefully) an informed decision made :)

It's your mate Chrissy-boy with the 'big lugs' we're going to see ;)

Yes, getting them (what ever 'they' will be) up the stairs is going to be the most 'interesting' bit! :eyebrows:

What's your view on Gold vs. Reds? I'm trying to get a handle on which is 'superior' in an audio sense, and in what cabinet. I'm not interested in value attached to antiquity/rarity or 'desirability', like hard-core 'Tannoyistas', particularly from Japan. I just want the biggest bang for my buck - ultimate performance is all that matters.

Marco.

pure sound
21-05-2009, 10:58
Chris is the chap to give a valid opinion on the relative merits of Reds & Golds. I don't think I've knowingly listened to any Reds. There is information online outlining the differences & I suspect such differences that they are will mean that perhaps Reds suit one style of cabinet better than Golds & vice versa with another cabinet type.

Either way if you choose with your ears (and from the good starting point that either type of driver offers) you shouldn't go far wrong. The rectangular GRF's are certainly a deal more manageable in terms of size than the corner units but must miss out on a little LF extension. Either will give far better coupling to a room than any reflex loaded arrangement and would be my preferred choice as a result. Again, perhaps not quite as much bass extension as a ported design but what there was would be much more natural sounding as the driver excursion will always be less for a given spl.

Marco
21-05-2009, 11:56
Thanks for that, Guy. I'm sure the trip will prove to be enlightening on a number of levels :)

I'll be taking my Croft pre and Copper amp down, along with a ton of familiar music, so experience should tell which option will be right for me.

I am rather intrigued though with the Lockwood Majors, given their studio monitor pedigree and provenance from being used in the production of music at some quite famous recording studios.

I do like genuine monitor designs, as they tend to give an insight into music and level of analysis which is often missing in designs more intended for the domestic market; indeed it was the BBC heritage of the Spendors and their famed midrange neutrality (and how this impacts on music) which attracted me to them in the first place.

What I'm looking for is something that allows me to hear 'right into' recordings so that the music is laid bare for inspection in all its glory and reproduced with genuine realism and scale, but without the overtly 'clinical' style of presentation often delivered as a by-product.

I can cope with something that is ruthlessly revealing because I now have source and control components of a high calibre, so what I'll hopefully be hearing is simply what's on the recording with as little artifice as possible imposed by the source signal.

Anyway, it'll be fun going on this particular voyage of audio discovery and I'm sure that whatever large Tannoys I return with will complete my system very nicely indeed and provide me with many years of musical satisfaction :cool:

I'll keep you posted!

Marco.

Marco
23-05-2009, 04:34
Well, today's the day... What mad speakers will the Marco-boy come back with, I wonder? :)

Could it be Lockwood Majors with 15" Monitor Super Reds, or Yorks with 15" Monitor Golds, or corner GRFs with either of the above drivers in them - or something totally different altogether?

All will be revealed later................ :eyebrows:

This'll be FUN :gig:

Marco.

Magna Audio
23-05-2009, 06:16
Sounds like you are going to have a great day.
It we be very interesting to see what you end up with.

Marco
24-05-2009, 08:07
Hi Steve,

I ended up (as I thought) with the Lockwood Majors :)

I'm totally shattered as yesterday we did a 730-mile round trip to Penzance and back to collect them, leaving at 6.30am, returning home at 10pm, and then I was up until 3.30am listening to music - I'm only up now because the sun's out and has awoken me from my slumbers!

I'll report more later when I've got my 'head on right', but one thing I will say is that vintage Reds and Golds have a sound all of their own compared to modern big Tannoys - these Lockwoods are absolutely stunning and raise the bar considerably above anything I've ever used (or probably heard) before...:cool:

More (much later)!

Marco.

aquapiranha
24-05-2009, 09:13
Excellent news Marco! we expect lots of nice photo's in lieu of a visit!

:)

anthonyTD
24-05-2009, 10:09
Hi Steve,

I ended up (as I thought) with the Lockwood Majors :)

I'm totally shattered as yesterday we did a 730-mile round trip to Penzance and back to collect them, leaving at 6.30am, returning home at 10pm, and then I was up until 3.30am listening to music - I'm only up now because the sun's out and has awoken me from my slumbers!

I'll report more later when I've got my 'head on right', but one thing I will say is that vintage Reds and Golds have a sound all of their own compared to modern big Tannoys - these Lockwoods are absolutely stunning and raise the bar considerably above anything I've ever used (or probably heard) before...:cool:

More (much later)!

Marco.

yes,
but did you get them up the stairs??? and how!
regards,anthony...

Ian Walker
24-05-2009, 10:58
He made me do it all on my own;)

anthonyTD
24-05-2009, 11:09
He made me do it all on my own;)
i bet;)

Marco
24-05-2009, 11:23
Yes, I'm a total biatch that way! :eyebrows:

Steve, I'm sure Mr Toy will be round with his camera phone sooner rather than later. Once I've optimised positioning and a few other bits I've got to do, I'll get you round for a sesh :smoking:

Anthony, I think you'll LOVE these babies to bits - the sound they produce with the Copper amp, and their way with music is just stunning: a huge, big-boned, effortless, musical vista of sound which just appears 'out of nowhere' and envelops your ears as if there were no cabinets present whatsoever... It's an utter riot :lol:

Off for another listen and some lunch so, tatty-bye for now :cool:

Marco.

anthonyTD
24-05-2009, 11:34
great stuff,
will give you a ring after dinner and you can tell me all about them.
A...

Marco
24-05-2009, 11:43
No worries, mate... Won't be long until you get your Glenairs, either! Instead of The Three Musketeers, it'll be 'Da Trio of Tannoyistas ;)

Who's D'artagnan, I wonder? :eyebrows:

Marco.

Magna Audio
24-05-2009, 18:47
Now that was a real journey for Tannoy land!

Love the staying up until you dropped cos' they are great and so exciting - you only live once.

Marco
24-05-2009, 22:43
Hi Steve,

They're just so musical and addictive to listen to, no matter the type of material played... People who use vintage Tannoys, including you, will know exactly what I mean.

The interesting thing about the Monitor Reds in big cabinets (not just the Lockwoods) is that they don't sound like so many huge speakers do nowadays, where the bass dominates everything, always reminding you that it's 'there'.

These can sound quite bass-light with certain material, and you wonder are there really 15" drivers in there... But when there is genuine bass in the musical programme, it just 'ignites', delivering huge visceral scale and impact, and rattling your ribcage! The crucial thing though is that they just fill the room effortlessly with sound without being played particularly loudly, which in my experience is a 'big speaker thing' that no drivers in small to medium-sized cabinets can emulate.

With the Lockwoods, insight and analysis into music is performed on a grand scale and with surgical precision - every nuance and inflection is laid bare for inspection but rendered in a non-fatiguing, relaxing way, almost completely without artifice or stress. The result being that the resolution on offer is breathtaking. Notes start and stop on a sixpence, so timing is always spot-on, and musical coherence, as a result of optimised driver time-alignment, is in the first rank as the 'point source' of the dual-concentric units give pinpoint imaging and throw a huge soundstage into the room; in totality creating a musical vista which is utterly beguiling.

The Lockwood Majors are big beasts for sure, measuring 44" tall, 28" wide and 18" deep, and weighing over 50kg each, but these big boys are about subtlety and finesse much more than they are about 'brute force', so much so that anyone expecting the 'boom 'n' tizz' offered by many modern large loudspeakers, and in the process being pummelled into submission by huge slabs of barrel-chested bass, would be rather disappointed. Bass simply 'happens' when it's meant to, and you feel the impact, but the Majors (no pun intended) 'major' on much more subtle musical attributes, making them the most engrossing listen you could possibly imagine. Quite simply, they take you on musical journeys where you have never ventured before...

Tomorrow I will discuss the difference between Tannoy 15" Monitor Reds and their later Gold counterparts, and why I ended up going for the Reds - it was an easy choice in the end. However, more on that later!

Right now I'm off to listen to some more tunes - I suspect that tonight's session could last long into the wee small hours :guitar: :peace:

Marco.

aquapiranha
24-05-2009, 22:46
Great news Marco, sounds like you are having a great time! The voices on the net confirm the reds to be a joy to behold, and I look forward to hearing them!

:)

stephenred
25-05-2009, 05:51
Hi- just came across this thread. I've got a pair of 12" HPDs in 150 litre dual ported cabinets and they are just about the best all round speaker I have owned. The cabinets are late NZ built 60s vintage and came with 15" Monitor Golds originally which sounded OK but not spectacular in them. We pulled out the Golds, sealed the backs, reinforced the sides and put in a new 1" ply front baffle for the HPDs, tuned the ports and WOW. Just pure musical enjoyment.
The next project was to be GRF Pros for the 15" Golds, but I have decided to build ported cabinets instead with 300 litre internal volume styled after the Churchills. Tannoys are very cabinet and room dependant and DIY cabs can be built better than the originals. I have had rectangular GRFs and they don't suit wooden houses like we have in New Zealand as well as bass reflex in my experience. The "vintage" Tannoys (up to and including HPDs) also have alnico magnets- modern ones don't I believe. This may be another part of the difference.
All the dimensions and volumes I am using accord with published Tannoy Thiele and Small data for "ideal" cabinets and the calculations seem to be spot on. Of note, I also own JBL 4344s, Quad ELS 63s, Yamaha NS 1000Ms and Rogers LS3/5As. I have also been a long term user of Sonus Faber Extremas, B&W 801s and DM6s amongst others. Tannoys are different- I didn't like them much once but now I find them both excellent and addictive.
Be warned!

Magna Audio
25-05-2009, 09:12
Excellent stuff Marco.
I had to rediscover nearly all my old music.
CD's of stuff from the 70's that sounded rubbish on Towers suddenly had some of the old magic. Nothing like the magic coming off a good TT though...

You summed up the situation very well - some material sounds as light & delicate as needed and when there is bass you get without over weighted or over doing it.
A lot of speakers seem to have to try to hard and end up with a very narrow band of material or type of sound that does sound good. The Tannoy's are lile a really good TT - they handle all and make it pleasing. After all it's about the music not how dynamic or attention grabbing a particular sound event is - many audiophiles seem to get drawn off down that road.

Marco
26-05-2009, 07:41
The Tannoy's are lile a really good TT - they handle all and make it pleasing. After all it's about the music not how dynamic or attention grabbing a particular sound event is - many audiophiles seem to get drawn off down that road.


Yep, Steve - I completely agree. What I love most about the Monitor Reds is their ability to throw a massive spotlight onto recordings, yet present musical detail in such an 'unforced' manner with no edge or 'glare' - their balance is just so well judged.

Regarding Reds vs. Golds, both were demonstrated to us in the same Lockwood cabinets and the difference was very marked indeed.

First of all, the older vintage Tannoys have a 'musicality' all of their own (here I'm talking about Monitor Blacks, Silvers, Reds and Golds) that is quite different to the speakers Tannoy produce today, which are much more 'hi-fi' in their presentation. Don't get me wrong, modern large Tannoys, such as Glenairs and models in the current Prestige range, are still superb but they lack the magical way with music of the vintage designs, although you wouldn't know it until you've heard the difference first-hand.

What I've learned about the older vintage Tannoys is that the musical presentation of the range evolved as music itself changed through the 40s, 50s and 60s, in that the drive units were voiced to optimise the particular demands of the 'music of the day', such that the earliest examples (Blacks) prioritised the accurate and realistic rendition of vocals and instrumental detail, and consequently they were a little lacking in (absolute) deep bass.

The Silvers continued that trend but as popular music began to emerge in the 50s with Rock and Roll, the voicing changed slightly and concessions were made to allow for greater demand in the lower frequencies, and this trend continued with the Reds into the late 50s and 60s where they were used in the production of music from the Beatles in studios such as Abbey Road and also later with music from the likes of The Rolling Stones and The Who. The Reds retained most of the magical midrange of the Blacks and Silvers but could cope better with the demands of Rock and Pop music.

The Golds were introduced later to offer superior power handling, but although still excellent in many ways, lacked the refinement and finesse of the earlier Blacks, Silvers and Reds, and gave an altogether different, 'heavier' and 'up front' kind of presentation with a more extended bass, but one could argue more coloured with it, too - quality is after all more important than quantity. There is 'falseness' to the sound of Golds that only becomes obvious in direct comparison to the Reds.

This is indeed what I heard when comparing the Reds to the Golds in the Lockwood cabinets. The Golds in comparison sound like someone has hit a 'loudness' button, the result being that bass frequencies overhang and cloud the midrange, robbing music of the expressiveness, clarity, and the beautifully addictive voicing of the Reds with vocals and instrumental detail. Consequently, a significant proportion of the vintage Tannoy magic is diluted in the process.

Don't get me wrong, if you haven't heard Reds, Golds will sound fabulous and still completely outperform most modern speakers in key areas, especially when installed in high quality cabinets. However, Monitor Reds in cabinets of equal quality portray music in such a spine-tingling beguilingly musical way that once you've heard their particular brand of magic nothing else will do. The 'real deal' is with the Reds as they have the midrange prowess of the Blacks and Silvers but with more authority in the lower frequencies, giving all types of music an uncanny realism.

So to all budding 'Tannoyistas' out there I would say do what ever you can to get hold of some 15" Reds, put them in solidly built, inert, modern cabinets, horn-loaded or otherwise, and quite simply you will unlikely ever buy another pair of loudspeakers! :cool:

Marco.

pure sound
26-05-2009, 08:34
Did you get to hear any hornloaded speakers at Bigears? Did he have any GRF's there to play?

Marco
26-05-2009, 08:45
Hi Guy,

Chris had some lovely modern replica GRF cabinets but they had no drivers or crossovers in them, so unfortunately we couldn't hear them. But to be honest, the Lockwoods just sounded so stunning that I wanted them there and then without listening to much else! :)

He had some smaller speakers, such as Chatworths, Yorks and Lancasters, but they were not in the same league.

I reckon Reds in corner GRFs would be quite something, though!

Marco.

aquapiranha
26-05-2009, 18:26
http://www.gunsnet.net/album/data//500/joseytextsmirk3-1.jpg

Marco
26-05-2009, 21:31
Hehe... If only moi had a digital camera or decent camera phone :eyebrows:

Don't worry, you'll see them soon enough in the flesh! :smoking:

Marco.

aquapiranha
26-05-2009, 21:39
:doh:

I suppose I can wait. Maybe I will be bringing some home brew behemoths of my own by then!!

:lol:

Marco
26-05-2009, 21:50
LOL. How does a week on Friday sound? :)

Anthony's coming up to hard-wire the drive units to the crossovers, as at the moment they are connected via a multi-pin plug, and some better speaker terminals need fitting too, so I'll get that done before unleashing them to connoisseurs :eyebrows:

Marco.

aquapiranha
26-05-2009, 22:02
"connoisseurs"??? I am flattered.. :lolsign:

I won't be able to make next friday though, so it will have to be later on... but i really look forward to it!

:)

Marco
26-05-2009, 22:42
Yes, you are a man of impeccable taste and sophistication, so it's only fitting that I expose you to the 'full experience' :)

Incidentally, looks-wise, they are nothing particularly special; simply being very large rectangular-shaped, solidly built cabinets in a well-finished grain effect (Rosewood colour) formica veneer (apparently this was 'all the rage' in recording/broadcasting studios!) with '1960s BBC monitor-style material' fixed grilles - and the whole lot fixed onto castors, facilitating quick and easy positioning.

In short, they look purposeful and 'functional', but relatively unspectacular - until you listen to them, that is... ;)

Marco.

aquapiranha
26-05-2009, 22:58
well, I am sure you know me well enough to know I do not judge a book by it's cover. Looks are quite definitely not at the top of my list when choosing hifi. I am sure the latest incarnations that I will be building shortly will be a testament to that!

It seems these Tannoys have had an effect on Ian too? and I know how good the Canterburys sound, so I am guessing that the Lockwoods would be similar, but "better"?

:scratch:

Barry
26-05-2009, 23:00
Hi Marco,

In view of your recent acquisition, you might be interested in this link:

http://www.hi-fiworld.co.uk/hfw/oldeworldehtml/tannoyspeakers.html .

Regards
Barry

Marco
26-05-2009, 23:29
Hi Barry,

Thanks for that. I've read some of the info on that link before - most interesting, but there are bits which don't, erm, quite tally with my experience... Namely this:


There is little that separates the Golds and earlier units sonically, but again, myth and legend dictate that the Silvers and Red are somehow superior. In my experience, the Golds need to be driven harder than their ancestors to get them to perform, but this is pretty marginal, and could just reflect the state of the particular drivers I was listening to.


"Myth and legend" aside, I know what my ears have told me and the Reds are unquestionably in a different league to Golds in terms of midrange voicing and subtlety. I cannot comment on Blacks or Silvers, as I haven't heard them. I am reliably informed though that the voicing of those really early models is not entirely suitable for 'modern' music (read as Rock, Pop, Dance, etc), however Classical, Jazz, Choral, and solo vocalists would be superb, so much would depend on one's diet of music.

Steve,

Ian loves the Lockwoods but we've yet to determine which (if any) are 'better' between his speakers and mine. I suspect that it's more a case of different than better, as Ian's Cants are pretty stunning in their own right. In terms of musical presentation, I would put their 'signature' as being somewhere in between that of the Reds and Golds.

Big Tannoys of any description though are just a riot with all sorts of music, and right now I can't stop sitting there with a huge 'perma-grin' spread across my chops! I just can't see it getting much better than this :lol:

Marco.

Barry
27-05-2009, 00:11
Hi Marco,

First of all let me say I have been following your odyssey with great interest and am enjoying reading your well written findings. Unfortuately, I have virtually no experience of Tannoys, apart from briefly listening to some in the early '70s (Berkleys or Cheviots, can't remember which, but they used the tannoy HPD dual concentric drivers) and also to some Tannoys (no idea what they were) which were so big you could almost climb inside them!

I used to know someone who owned some big Tannoys, before moving on to Altec Lansings (!). He had visited the Tannoy factory and said that what the guys there didn't know about loudspeakers, was not worth knowing.

Tannoy Reds are hugely coverted in Japan - there's many a Japanese audiophile (hate that term) who would give their eye teeth for a set!

Regards
Barry

DSJR
27-05-2009, 13:02
If you know this already, then apologies, but given a typical 15" Tannoy driver, you can set the sensitivity vs bass extension at the design stage. Higher sensitivity gives more mid output but the bass appears to roll away earlier. Setting for lower sensitivity (as per the HPD's) and therefore higher power handling, one gets more apparent bass extension as the mid is lower in level relative to the bass, in addition to the softer foam suspension on these I think. Adding the "girdercoustic" strips to the HPD cone also makes it heavier to aid bass extension, although I think that this idea was abandoned years ago.

I do appreciate that far more than the above is involved and I reckon that although I enjoyed the seventies HPD models, the box colouration was fairly severe, along with raggedly made pepperpots (all pictured on various Tanny orientated websites) and this would account for the sloppier bass, boxy mid and ragged top end of the HPD's compared to the best of the earlier and latest stuff.

Marco, I'm sure re-wiring the connection internally will make a subtle improvement, but these oldies were at least 10 - 15 Ohm load as I remember, so foo tweakery won't be quite so necessary - same for substantially beefing up the wiring methinks for the same reason as these will need a clean voltage drive rather than oodles of amps like a modern speaker. I also think the level switching in the crossover may be the weak point, as Tannoy discovered in the early eighties - the awful switch thing being replaced by the screw-in adjuster now found on their DC models.

Finally sir, if I may be so bold...:) If you can afford to shell out for these tannoys, then £50 extra could buy you a basic but good enough digital camera..............................OUCH!!!!!!!

Clive
27-05-2009, 13:18
Marco, probably it won't make a huge difference but do your output TX's have a 16 ohm tap? This would probably be a better match than an 8ohm or 6 ohm tap, assuming something like a 15 ohm load. I don't know what you copper amp has but 6 ohm TX's is fairly typical to provide a match for modern speakers.

pure sound
27-05-2009, 17:06
Big Tannoys of any description though are just a riot with all sorts of music, and right now I can't stop sitting there with a huge 'perma-grin' spread across my chops! I just can't see it getting much better than this :lol:



It can, Vitavox ;)

Seriously, I'm glad they are doing the business & I look forward to seeing pictures & maybe hearing them at some point. You must take them to Scalford Hall next time.

I gather those GRF's may be finding their way up north at some point too.

Ali Tait
27-05-2009, 17:41
Yeah,bring them to Eggy Marco!

Ian Walker
27-05-2009, 21:05
Bollox to that,: i aint liftin them monsters back down his dancers:lol:

Ali Tait
27-05-2009, 21:07
Ok,you bring yours then! :lolsign:

Ian Walker
27-05-2009, 22:20
Aye i'll bring one under each arm:lol:

Ali Tait
27-05-2009, 22:26
Got a roof-rack? :)

Marco
27-05-2009, 23:35
Ali, if you come down, we can balance them on your middle leg, or on second thoughts, I doubt there'd be enough girth there for that :lolsign:

Marco.

P.S I'll return and deal with the sensible comments later.

Ali Tait
28-05-2009, 09:07
I'll have the same problem going to Eggy,my statics are a two-man lift,being made from solid oak.Good job Mo lives nearby!

Marco
28-05-2009, 22:59
Guys,

I'd love to bring the Lockwoods to Eggy but they're bloody huge and it'd be just too much of an upheaval. If Al decides to do another fest in Chester I *might* reconsider ;)

My apologies for not being around much at the moment to answer questions, but a combination of being busy work-wise and the Lockwoods dragging me away to listen to music has been the culprit! :smoking:

These Monitor Reds are just so very special, musically. When listening to recordings, they seem to draw you right in and 'hook' you, and before you know it, two or three hours of listening have passed by!!

Clive,

The Copper amp is fixed at 6 Ohms, so no can do. Interestingly, I can detect no major 'issues' with the Lockwoods/Copper amp combo, despite the former being rated at 15 Ohms, so I guess that, as you say, it doesn't make a huge difference. There is nothing 'thin' about the sound, nor is there an over-emphasis of the midrange - in fact, the midrange of the Monitor Reds is quite the most sublime that I have ever heard, and the top end is explicitly detailed but completely non-fatiguing.

Lower down the frequency range, the Monitor Reds in Lockwood cabinets don't do 'stunt bass', which is just the same as with any other vintage Tannoys. However, bass is very deep and tight, with plenty of impact (when the occasion demands) and, most importantly, ever so tuneful. However, what they do achieve with music in the lower registers is absolutely awesome scale and a sense of effortlessness, such that musical performances sound and *feel* just like that, and are delivered with gravitas and genuine realism. Certain acoustic instruments like saxophone and trumpet can sound so real that it makes you wince, such is the level of dynamic impact. It's something, in my experience, that 'normal' speakers only ever hint at despite some being musically adept in certain areas within the boundaries of their capabilities.

The Lockwoods also image like bitches, envelop the room with a huge 'widescreen' soundstage, and have very little box coloration that I can detect. They're within a smidgen of being as good as electrostatics or open baffles in that respect, but sound much 'bigger' and more real, in a completely unforced and natural way, than I've ever heard from examples of the latter breed.

They also appear to have near-limitless headroom, as turning up the wick just makes the sound swell to mammoth proportions, and grow bigger and bigger, until the room is overwhelmed by 'living and breathing' live-sounding music. I haven't 'pushed it' yet (as I feel that I should respect the fact that the drive units are over 50 years old), but you get the distinct impression that your ears will give in long before they will!

Dave (DSJR),

I agree with all of your points, but the marriage between my TD Cooper amp and the Lockwoods is an excellent one. It would be hard to imagine how things could get much better, although the Vitavox which Guy mentions could perhaps offer something even more. I will however hard-wire the crossovers to the drive units and remove the connector plug, as recommended by Roger at Lockwood, and fit some high quality silver WBT speaker binding posts. I am after all a perfectionist ;)

With regard to 'how good does it get?', I'm also sure that some massive Klipschorns would do a similar, or if not even better, trick. One thing is for sure: having now heard how vintage Tannoys in huge cabinets 'do music' there is quite simply no way that I could ever return to modern 'conventional' loudspeakers at anything approaching a 'normal' size; it would be like exposing one's palate to the horrors of Beaujolais Nouveau after being accustomed to Gevrey Chambertin...

There's a neat saying amongst some females which runs: 'once you've had black you never go back' - it's kinda like that too with big Tannoys! :eyebrows:

Marco.

P.S Dave, the lack of digital camera chez-moi is through a combination of laziness and apathy towards taking 'snaps' out with of hi-fi purposes!

The Grand Wazoo
28-05-2009, 23:22
P.S Dave, the lack of digital camera chez-moi is through a combination of laziness and apathy towards taking 'snaps' out with of hi-fi purposes!

Digital camera- pah!
I'd have thought that with your recent 'classic kit tendancies' a shoe box with a pinhole would be just the thing!!

Marco
28-05-2009, 23:26
Hehehe... Indeed! :eyebrows:

Now, I must dash as I can hear the Lockwoods shouting: 'play me, play me'! ;)

Marco.

The Grand Wazoo
28-05-2009, 23:37
Go fer yer life, my man!!

DSJR
29-05-2009, 08:16
Come on Marco, be fair :) If you have a laptop with USB input, you could take some snaps, transfer them to your laptop and upload them to photobucket or somewhere similar WHILE listening to them old Tannoys........................................... ........................;)

Marco
29-05-2009, 09:29
LOL! "Take some snaps" with precisely what, Dave - the back of my botty? :lol:

Leesen velee carefullee, I shall say zees only once... I do not own any devices (digital cameras or otherwise) with which to take pictures.

*BUT*, rest assured, when Mr Toy visits (who took my system pictures in the Gallery thread) this unfortunate situation will be rectified and pics of the Lockwoods duly posted for your perusal ;)

Marco.

chris@panteg
29-05-2009, 10:04
Hi Marco
I am pleased you love your Tannoy's , i have noticed though a certain person on PFM keeps making little digs .

I now begin to understand what you mean , please Marco no need to say anything further on this i don't want to spoil this thread ' enjoy your new speakers ' .

Marco
29-05-2009, 10:18
Haha, I know exactly what/who you mean Chris, and it is most amusing!! ;)

Marco.

chris@panteg
29-05-2009, 12:08
Regarding your tannoys/lockwoods ' reminded me of a really old speaker i heard once that surprised me 'but i can't for the life of me remember what it was.

It was big in fact huge from the mid 60's and was interesting because it had an in built valve powered tweeter it sounded quite coloured but with astonishing scale and impact.

It was run with my old concordant modified Quad II amps 'a fascinating listen i have say.

I suspect it may had either tannoy or lowther drivers.

Clive
29-05-2009, 15:48
Clive,

The Copper amp is fixed at 6 Ohms, so no can do. Interestingly, I can detect no major 'issues' with the Lockwoods/Copper amp combo, despite the former being rated at 15 Ohms, so I guess that, as you say, it doesn't make a huge difference. There is nothing 'thin' about the sound, nor is there an over-emphasis of the midrange - in fact, the midrange of the Monitor Reds is quite the most sublime that I have ever heard, and the top end is explicitly detailed but completely non-fatiguing.

Marco,

What crossed my mind is that it would be worth asking Anthony to check the curves for the operating points of your amp. The output valves will be seeing a different reflected impedance to what Anthony intended, this means the impedance of the primary OPT winding will not be as intended in the original amp design. This does mean the amp won't be performing 100% at its best. The difference could be tiny or if rectified you might add useful performance. It needs Anthony to check the specs. For sure as the Tannoys are efficient it makes all this less critical though you will be loosing a fair number of watts.

At worst it means new OPTs, at best it's not worth worrying about. Only the designer can advise.

Marco
29-05-2009, 17:41
Hi Clive,

Interesting. I shall ask Anthony to comment :)

I'm sure you are right; however, I guess that as the Lockwoods so comprehensively outperform the Spendors (and almost every other loudspeakers I've heard) by a country mile that any minor electrical deficiencies that may exist in the combination with the amplifier are rendered as a relative insignificance when listening. After all, it's what is heard with music in the end result that really matters - and the overall performance with the Reds in Lockwood cabinets is simply stunning.

However, it's interesting that you should bring this up as I have noticed some minor issues with certain material played, which through speaking with Anthony, is attributable to the characteristics of high impedance speakers regardless of whatever type of amplifier is used with them (or what taps are used, athough this helps slightly). Therefore, in order to address this I intend to give the 15" Monitor Golds, which are rated at 8 Ohms, another shot at home in the same cabinets to see what happens.

It was quite clear during the demo at the dealers that the Reds were superior to the Golds, but that was in a totally different room (I did bring the Croft and Copper amp, though) and only with music I brought with me on the day. It'll be interesting to hear what the Golds do in my own room in conjunction with the rest of my system, and what type of presentation they will offer compared to the Reds, with them being a better electrical match for the Copper amp, albeit having different sonic characteristics...

It'll simply be a matter of choosing the best compromise and what gives the optimum result with most types of music. This is very much a learning curve for me, so I'll report back in a few weeks when I obtain the Golds (and crossovers) necessary to do the comparison. It's all fun though finding out - whatever I end up with in the end will be excellent :cool:

Marco.

pure sound
29-05-2009, 22:12
However, it's interesting that you should bring this up as I have noticed some minor issues with certain material played, which through speaking with Anthony, is attributable to the characteristics of high impedance speakers regardless of whatever type of amplifier is used with them (or what taps are used, athough this helps slightly). Therefore, in order to address this I intend to give the 15" Monitor Golds, which are rated at 8 Ohms, another shot at home in the same cabinets to see what happens.



Can you be more specific? I haven't heard Reds but have read that they can have a little too much sizzle (2-3KHz) which some later crossover modifications attempted to address on some of the models.

aquapiranha
29-05-2009, 22:17
Hi Marco
I am pleased you love your Tannoy's , i have noticed though a certain person on PFM keeps making little digs .
I now begin to understand what you mean , please Marco no need to say anything further on this i don't want to spoil this thread ' enjoy your new speakers ' .


Care to point that out to me? I have not noticeed anything but tbh I rarely go on that site now except to laugh at parry.

Marco
29-05-2009, 22:47
Guy,


Can you be more specific? I haven't heard Reds but have read that they can have a little too much sizzle (2-3KHz) which some later crossover modifications attempted to address on some of the models.

There's no "sizzle" whatsoever - the top end is open, extended and sweet sounding. I should point out that the crossovers used with these Reds have been modified by Chris with high quality caps, etc, and are not the original ones from Tannoy.

What I'm referring to is a slight lack of body in the upper midrange with certain material, notably more processed rock and pop, which can distract from their otherwise excellent handling of music. It's not a massive issue, but it's there all the same, and probably to do with what Clive and Dave referred to earlier.

I suspect that the 8 Ohms Golds, when I use them, will not exhibit this trait due to being a better impedance match for my Copper amp, however they may miss out on some of the magic of the Reds in the midrange with vocals and acoustic instruments. Like I said, it's all about choosing the best compromise for the majority of music I listen to, and that's what I hope to ascertain when Chris gets hold of some Golds (he's since sold the pair I heard at his place) in a couple of weeks.

In the meantime, there's plenty of fun to be had listening to the Reds and getting a really good handle on what they do with music :)

Steve,

The person Chris is referring to is 'he of NVA'. I do find the attention flattering and more than a little amusing ;)

See here: http://www.pinkfishmedia.net/forum/showthread.php?t=63998

Post #10 from 'Dave', Linn/Naim fanboi par excellence, is even funnier!

Marco.

aquapiranha
29-05-2009, 23:00
well well. Looks like his attempted hatchet job has backfired big time! In an attempt to ridicule, he has in fact managed to turn half of the forum, or at least those with good hearing, against himself! oh dear... not the response he was hoping for I'll wager.

:lolsign:

Marco
30-05-2009, 00:14
The resident 'Tannoyista terrors' sorted him out!

Meanwhile, I was just reading this month's HFW and came across this quote from Ingvar Ohman of Guru loudspeakers:


My ambition has never been to make loudspeakers that create sound for people chasing spectacular experiences, but to recreate the music caught on the recordings. I'm driven by my own curiosity towards these originals. It simply does not get more spectacular than opening up an uncoloured window to the world of the recording.


That kind of sums up what big Tannoys do. The latter is very apt and exactly what Lockwoods achieve with Monitor Reds in :)

Marco.

anthonyTD
30-05-2009, 08:58
Marco,

What crossed my mind is that it would be worth asking Anthony to check the curves for the operating points of your amp.
The output valves will be seeing a different reflected impedance to what Anthony intended, this means the impedance of the primary OPT winding will not be as intended in the original amp design. This does mean the amp won't be performing 100% at its best. The difference could be tiny or if rectified you might add useful performance. It needs Anthony to check the specs. For sure as the Tannoys are efficient it makes all this less critical though you will be loosing a fair number of watts.

At worst it means new OPTs, at best it's not worth worrying about. Only the designer can advise.

hi clive,
you are indeed correct in quoting the above, and as stated the only way to rectify this would be to change the output transformers to get a perfect match with the "reds" however, i have discussed this with marco and we have decided that the mismatch is well tolerable in comparison with what marco is getting in return from the reds, the transformers on his amp were hand wound bespoke items and therefore would be very difficult to replace today, so best left alone for now me thinks.:)
regards,anthony,TD...

Marco
30-05-2009, 11:47
Yep, that's the current state of play :)

Chris suggested that I build a system around the Reds, by changing my amp, if I feel that the current combo isn't optimal. However, as I love what the Copper amp does (and what it does it truly special) I quickly booted that idea into touch!

No, whatever speakers I use must compliment the Copper amp (and the rest of my system, too). After all, this slight 'issue' of incompatibility only exists because of the 15 Ohms rating of the Reds, which is not exactly normal, so it doesn't make sense to make the compromise in the wrong area.

It'll be very interesting to hear what the Golds bring to the party in a familiar environment, but in the meantime I'm enjoying the Reds so much that such things can wait to take their natural course :smoking:

Marco.

Marco
07-06-2009, 20:10
Guys,

These aren't the best pics, but as promised, here are the Lockwoods as taken from Ian's mobile phone - cheers, Ian :)

http://img146.imageshack.us/img146/3710/lockwoodmajors026.jpg (http://img146.imageshack.us/my.php?image=lockwoodmajors026.jpg)

http://img199.imageshack.us/img199/7033/lockwoodmajors029.jpg (http://img199.imageshack.us/my.php?image=lockwoodmajors029.jpg)

http://img81.imageshack.us/img81/4683/lockwoodmajors030.jpg (http://img81.imageshack.us/my.php?image=lockwoodmajors030.jpg)

It'll give you a rough idea of what they're like. As I said, they're not the most beautiful designs in the world - typical of what I would call 'BBC studio aesthetics' (I will be having them re-veneered, though), but they sound f*cking awesome! :eyebrows:

To give you an idea of how much bigger the Lockwoods are than the Spendors (which weren't exactly small), observe the solitary (extra-wide) Mana Soundbase under each speaker, which is now dwarfed by the Lockwoods on top, and compare to how it looked before with the SP100s:

http://i560.photobucket.com/albums/ss49/aos_images/marco_system/2009-01/aosm06.jpg

As you can see - quite a difference! Also, the Lockwoods are the same height from top to bottom (when flat on the floor) as the Spendors were on four phases of Mana and also speaker stands...

When Steve visits with his mega-pixel camera thingy I'll try and get some better pictures done :cool:

Marco.

Barry
07-06-2009, 22:30
Guys,

These aren't the best pics, but as promised, here are the Lockwoods as taken from Ian's mobile phone - cheers, Ian :)

http://img146.imageshack.us/img146/3710/lockwoodmajors026.jpg (http://img146.imageshack.us/my.php?image=lockwoodmajors026.jpg)

http://img199.imageshack.us/img199/7033/lockwoodmajors029.jpg (http://img199.imageshack.us/my.php?image=lockwoodmajors029.jpg)

http://img81.imageshack.us/img81/4683/lockwoodmajors030.jpg (http://img81.imageshack.us/my.php?image=lockwoodmajors030.jpg)

It'll give you a rough idea of what they're like. As I said, they're not the most beautiful designs in the world - typical BBC studio aesthetics (I will be having them re-veneered, though), but they sound f*cking awesome! :eyebrows:

To give you an idea of how much bigger the Lockwoods are than the Spendors (which weren't exactly small), observe the solitary Mana Soundbase under each speaker, which is now dwarfed by the Lockwoods on top, and compare before to how it looked with the SP100s:

http://i560.photobucket.com/albums/ss49/aos_images/marco_system/2009-01/aosm06.jpg

As you can see - quite a difference! Also, the Lockwoods are the same height from top to bottom (when flat on the floor) as the Spendors were on four phases of Mana and also speaker stands...

When Steve visits with his mega-pixel camera thingy I'll try and get some better ones done :cool:

Marco.

Hi Marco,

Until I saw the third photo, I had assumed the door between the speakers was the only door into your listening room, rather than (I assume) providing access into the loft. As such, it makes the speakers look absolutely massive - no doubt appropriate to their sound!

Enjoy
Barry

Marco
07-06-2009, 22:33
Oh, and in the third picture above, you can see the proper entrance to the room (from the side)... Some dafties used to think that you entered via the door (cupboard) between the speakers!

Aye, maybe if you were 4ft nothing!! :lolsign:

Marco.

Marco
07-06-2009, 22:35
Hahahaha...

Barry, I can't believe you've just posted that at the same time as I was thinking the exact same thing!! :lol:

Marco.

Barry
07-06-2009, 22:35
.......Some dafties used to think that you entered via the door (cupboard) between the speakers!
........

Marco.

I did!

Barry
07-06-2009, 22:37
Hahahaha... I can't believe you've just posted that at the same time as I was thinking the exact same thing!! :lol:

Marco.

AoS must be fostering Jungian synchronicity! It's not the first time this has happened.

Marco
07-06-2009, 22:48
LOL. Trust me, Barry, you're far from being the first person who's thought that!

I'd been using the Lockwoods directly onto the floor until today when Ian visited (as they were far too heavy to lift on my own onto the Soundbases), and they sounded great there, but after setting them up on the Mana supports their performance has moved up several more notches, not least due to the fact that I can now get them bang-on level on my rather uneven suspended wooden floor - well the house dates from 1887, so most things are a bit skew-whiff!

Anyway, yet further proof that Mana works in its intended application :)

Marco.

DSJR
08-06-2009, 09:09
Firstly, Tannoys have excellent dispersion, so they don't have to be perfectly level (unless you are fussy about such things). Secondly, getting them off the floor must help a bit. Thirdly, I bet a pile of books sounds better than Mana :D

By the way Marco - what are you going to do with the Spendors? Someone on the Yahoo Spendor groups site wanted some S or SP100's. I could put you in touch.......

Marco
08-06-2009, 09:39
Hi Dave,


Firstly, Tannoys have excellent dispersion...


No argument there!


...so they don't have to be perfectly level (unless you are fussy about such things).


Well I *am* very fussy about such things, as I am with all issues of system set-up. Attention to detail can often make the difference between a system which is merely good, and one which sounds truly fabulous.

Trust me, if you had been there yesterday and heard the 'before and after' results, on and off of Mana, you'd not be making these silly comments!! :eyebrows: ;)


Secondly, getting them off the floor must help a bit.


Oh it definitely did!


Thirdly, I bet a pile of books sounds better than Mana


That one doesn't even deserve a reply! :lol:


By the way Marco - what are you going to do with the Spendors? Someone on the Yahoo Spendor groups site wanted some S or SP100's. I could put you in touch.......


The Spendors were traded-in as part of the deal for the Lockwoods.

Marco.

DSJR
08-06-2009, 16:17
I'm not in the habit of making silly comments (!) and if the mana changes the sound so much, I'd suggest there's something awry going on (the 30" jobbies killed some ATC's I know well, and a long gone poster on PFM used some to cancel out bass vibration in the floor with the similar ATC model).

Anyway, glad you're enjoying the Tannoys

Spectral Morn
08-06-2009, 16:36
Hi Dave,



No argument there!



Well I *am* very fussy about such things, as I am with all issues of system set-up. Attention to detail can often make the difference between a system which is merely good, and one which sounds truly fabulous.

Trust me, if you had been there yesterday and heard the 'before and after' results, on and off of Mana, you'd not be making these silly comments!! :eyebrows: ;)



Oh it definitely did!



That one doesn't even deserve a reply! :lol:



The Spendors were traded-in as part of the deal for the Lockwoods.

Marco.

See I told you that you needed to keep your Mana speaker stands (get rid of them...I don't think so).....the D S D L all ways (mostly) knows best ;):lol:


Regards D S D L

Marco
08-06-2009, 19:03
I'm not in the habit of making silly comments (!) and if the mana changes the sound so much, I'd suggest there's something awry going on (the 30" jobbies killed some ATC's I know well, and a long gone poster on PFM used some to cancel out bass vibration in the floor with the similar ATC model).


Dave, my dear fellow, no offence, but I can find no other way of interpreting your comments regarding Mana as anything but other than silly! :eyebrows:

You should know me by now and how 'serious' I am - do you think that I'm using 32 levels of the stuff under my equipment for the good of my health or because I'm seduced by its 'aesthetic loveliness?' Oh, and I haven't been 'brainwashed' either ;)

The stuff WORKS - period. And that includes under speakers... There's nothing "awry" going on whatsoever; merely that the speakers now have a better 'floor' than before (read as more rigid and level), from being supported on the Soundbases, which is very important on my dodgy, uneven, old suspended wooden floor, in my dodgy, uneven old lodge house! :lolsign:

It was the same with the Spendors, too: remove the Mana supports and the sound completely fell apart compared to how it was on Mana (although if you had only experienced the effect of 'standard' speaker stands, you'd never know what was missing), mainly because the system is in a relatively small room with a 'dodgy' suspended wooden floor, so something effective must be done to help eradicate the 'challenges' and make big speakers work properly. This is perfectly understandable and easily demonstrable in my years of experience of using properly designed equipment supports and speaker stands and comparing them to something rather more inferior in terms of its design principles and the effectiveness of such.

With respect, I've heard your tale a million times of how 'Mana once destroyed some ATCs' - I won't begin to guess what multitude of variables combined to cause that unfortunate effect, but what rips my knitting ever so slightly is when people form definitive, 'dyed-in-the-wool', conclusions about something based on one bad experience (or not much more than that), without allowing for an innumerable amount of reasons why that 'thing they didn't like' didn't work in that particular application, and then proceed to narrow-mindedly rubbish 'that thing' for the rest of their lives!

There's a guy over on pfm called Cliff Patterson (username 'Cliffepatte') who, based on one experience of hearing a heavily Mana'd set-up perform badly at hi-fi show in Bristol in 2000, is on a blinkered one-man mission to slate/disparage Mana (both the product and the company, now defunct of course) at every available opportunity, mainly because JW once called him 'a twat' on the old Mana forum. It's this level of stubborn, illogical prejudice that acts like a cancer on audio forums; where people's jaundiced opinions are allowed go unchallenged and influence the gullible who can't think for themselves. I will never allow that to happen here.

Now....... I'm not saying you're like that, heaven forbid, but I think it's very important when expressing an opinion about something in hi-fi to always look at the bigger picture and retain an open mind. I’ve already made you eat your words about the M3D, and I promise that when you visit I'll do the same with Mana, too!! :ner:

Marco.

Marco
08-06-2009, 19:06
See I told you that you needed to keep your Mana speaker stands (get rid of them...I don't think so).....the D S D L all ways (mostly) knows best


Absolutomondo, Daphne! :eyebrows:

However, I'm only keeping the extra-wide Soundbases that I'm using under the Lockwoods - the rest, which was under the Spendors, is up for sale simply because I no longer have a use for it.

Marco.

DSJR
08-06-2009, 20:50
So you only have one layer under your Tannoys?

You must forgive me fella's. I've seen so much foo come and go and you must admit, the whole Mana "Thang" was all about ageing hippies with their Linn/Naim systems sharing a spliff or two for the most part..

My experience (and also reading a certain devilish Doctor's experiences on PFM before he disappeared back to ZG) with the ATC 100's was with the full 30" stand. All the bass that I know these speakers (even passive) can give was removed and the aforementioned Doctor used this to his advantage to tame his neighbour downstairs. They'd probably have suited me thus, but the mid drivers were at their height limit on the custom stands they were on (2.5" higher than the supplied ones).

Our house was built as a coach-house/stabling in 1897, substantially altered (by losing the back half) in 1946 and as a result, no wall is quite true or square. We do have concrete floors downstairs though and the ceilings have enough give in them at in the sitting room there's no "boom" - the BC2's would be unlistenable otherwise.

Marco
08-06-2009, 21:27
So you only have one layer under your Tannoys?


Anything else, Dave, would be ridiculous considering the size of the Lockwoods! Have you see the pics I posted? :eyebrows:


You must forgive me fella's. I've seen so much foo come and go and you must admit, the whole Mana "Thang" was all about ageing hippies with their Linn/Naim systems sharing a spliff or two for the most part..


I understand, mate, but that doesn't make it a bad product, does it? I always find it amazing how fickle some people are to allow such things to influence their opinion of equipment, in some cases, without even having any practical experience whatsoever of the equipment concerned! I don't give a monkey's bollocks whether something is used by "ageing hippies" or boy scouts, as long as it's effective in my system and allows me to enjoy music more - that's all that matters. I've simply never understood the notion of not buying a product as a result of disliking the people who use it or the 'image' it/they portray :mental:


My experience (and also reading a certain devilish Doctor's experiences on PFM before he disappeared back to ZG) with the ATC 100's was with the full 30" stand. All the bass that I know these speakers (even passive) can give was removed and the aforementioned Doctor used this to his advantage to tame his neighbour downstairs.


Dave, I've listened to the "devilish Doctor's" system on about three separate occasions, and much as I dislike the guy, his system sounded very good, including his ATCs. There was certainly no issue with a lack of bass on his Mana stands, I can assure you :)

Furthermore, the infamous 'neighbour from hell' is also something of a misnomer, as when fox et al aren't there he doesn't play music loudly. As far as I know, he has no real issue with his neighbours in that respect. No, all this nonsense is simply someone's overactive imagination and a case of 'Chinese Whispers' at its worst!


Our house was built as a coach-house/stabling in 1897, substantially altered (by losing the back half) in 1946 and as a result, no wall is quite true or square. We do have concrete floors downstairs though and the ceilings have enough give in them at in the sitting room there's no "boom" - the BC2's would be unlistenable otherwise.

I don't doubt it, mate, but every situation is different. That's why there is no one 'universal solution' for anything in hi-fi, stands or otherwise!

Marco.

Spectral Morn
08-06-2009, 22:45
I hated everything Mana stood for at the time in my youth (not now) the whole Linn/Naim/Mana thing but after trying a Mana Ref stand under my Marantz CD94 mk 2, 20 years ago I was convinced they were onto something. I still use the stand under my AMR CD77 in the upstairs system. The shop I worked in was sent one to try and curiosity got the better of me (I used to borrow everything out of the shop at the time, the only way to learn)....I was expecting nothing, maybe a bright sound as most glass shelved stands seemed to produce. Well after setting up the stand a fairly time consuming thing it worked and was substantially better than my Target TT5 (it was not totally as supplied. I was using various shelves made from granite and other materials instead of the MDF)rack I was using then.

Mana is pretty poor in the looks department but its not FOO...it works though not under everything to the same extent.


Regards D S D L

Marco
09-06-2009, 07:46
Lesson learned, eh Neil? :)

The difference is that you remained open-minded enough to put your prejudices to once side and try it for yourself, properly set-up in your own system, so that you could form a valid opinion.

Most other detractors of Mana are unable (or more likely unwilling) to overcome that particular hurdle, and instead allow themselves to be negatively influenced by the most superficial of things... I just cannot understand the mentality.

Dave will come round, though, when he visits - of that I am in no doubt! ;)

Marco.

Spectral Morn
09-06-2009, 09:05
Lesson learned, eh Neil? :)

The difference is that you remained open-minded enough to put your prejudices to once side and try it for yourself, properly set-up in your own system, so that you could form a valid opinion.

Most other detractors of Mana are unable (or more likely unwilling) to overcome that particular hurdle, and instead allow themselves to be negatively influenced by the most superficial of things... I just cannot understand the mentality.

Dave will come round, though, when he visits - of that I am in no doubt! ;)

Marco.

I went into the audio trade back in 1988 with an open mind, but within a relatively short time circumstances turned me slightly hostile to the Linn/Naim thing and for no actual reason other than the local Linn/Naim shop was very hostile to us and constantly caused us problems...false customers/dems that never turned up, silly phone calls etc. I had not heard Linn, Naim, Ion, Nyteck, Exposure, Rega etc the usual products stocked by the other shop (we stocked everything else and our shop was created to give audio enthusiasts a choice outside the flat earth brigades offerings).

It was common to hear staff in the shop I worked in, and senior staff to refer to Linn and Naim very badly. "What do you think of the Linn LP12 ?" ummm "Well sir the platter makes a nice Pitza dish"....." It makes a nice door stop" etc "What about Naim?"....ummmmm "Well sir if you had enough of them you could build a nice outbuilding "....."Well sir they make nice paper weights". I felt that all this was not required all we had to do was let customers hear what we did and they could then make their minds up. No doubt the other shop had its sayings too "The A to Z of Hi-Fi no one wants"..."why would anyone want to reproduce music through Light bulbs" etc,etc.

Having not actually heard any of the flat earth kit I refrained from slagging it off....but over the years I did close my mind to it. Until the Mana stand arrived.....WOW. Since then I have heard the Linn LP12 and Naim amplifiers and you know what they would not be for me, but to call them crap is the product of a narrow mind. Many like the sound and thats fine as far as I am concerned.

My signature at the bottom of the page says it all for me now..... "The journey is best traveled with eyes open, ears open and mind open...otherwise you will miss all the possible magic of the journey."



Regards D S D L

DSJR
09-06-2009, 12:55
I can't understand why we never sold Mana, but the main shop may have dismissed them out of hand for all I know. I base my current feeling (not as severe as a "judgement," whatever you think) on a mana dem at the time. I'd had no exposure to them otherwise.

I can pass judgement on the Sound org stands though. We sold loads of these and the flexible chipboard top makes a rather plump 1980's LP12 go even worse. A 'Brik system we installed that sounded bass light was miraculously transformed by putting the LP12 on two of their shelf supports (they did a version of the board with inserts for spiking and a set of solid "spike-shoes" to screw them in.

I just get suspicious of what seems to be "anti-resonances" to "cure" a supposed problem, although a convertible arm I knew once used weights in the bumpers to vibrate anti-phase to the chassis, thus counteracting scuttle-shake.

By the way Marco, the LAST thing I'd be listening to is your system when I do get to visit - I'd rather enjoy the *music* coming out of it, as your tastes may be poles apart from mine and it's always good to come away with a fresh list of albums to buy :)

RobHolt
10-06-2009, 23:00
When I had my Tannoy LGMs I modified a pair of Mana Sound Bases by fitting metal uprights and it worked well.

I'm the first to shout if I smell foo but Mana bases can clearly change the way a speaker/stand interacts with the floor. Not only is the effect audible but you can feel it. Just stand next to the Mana platform and feel the vibrations in the floor, then do the same with the speaker placed directly onto the floor. Feels quite different.

These were my Frankenstein Sound Bases with LGMs:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v637/zippy670/P7310925.jpg

Rob.

Marco
12-06-2009, 09:41
Those look very nice indeed, Rob :)

I like your artwork on the wall, too. Is that a Miro or Chagall on the left?


I'm the first to shout if I smell foo but Mana bases can clearly change the way a speaker/stand interacts with the floor. Not only is the effect audible but you can feel it. Just stand next to the Mana platform and feel the vibrations in the floor, then do the same with the speaker placed directly onto the floor. Feels quite different.


You're spot on, and I can tell you that it's exactly the same when touching my Mana equipment supports.

Friends visiting, who don't know much about these things, are often amazed that you can feel the bass (and resultant vibration) kicked out by the huge speakers in my room, travelling through the floor, especially when music is being played loudly (and I listen occasionally at near 'live concert' levels, such is the serious SPLs I can generate in my smallish room), but feel almost no vibration whatsoever when touching my stands...

One could say that the equipment is thus (as far as possible) being 'cocooned' in a vibration-free environment. However, it takes 17 levels under each rack to achieve this effect, and (almost) the need for a ladder to change records! :lol: :eyebrows:

This ably demonstrates the efficacy of Mana - and I can't stress enough how significant its effect is in terms of the overall performance of my system and how it handles recorded music. If the gear was simply plonked on some old sideboard, or whatever, the performance of my system would seriously be affected, and indeed clearly is, as I've tried it often enough.

Trust me, I hate "foo" as much as you (that was nice, it even rhymed!), but when I discover something that genuinely works, beyond doubt, then I embrace the principal wholeheartedly. It's a similar situation with my mains arrangements, too, and why on AOS we're passionate about attention to detail in terms of system set-up - and indeed have a whole section of the forum devoted to this very subject!

Marco.

P.S Good to see you back, btw :cool:

SteveW
12-06-2009, 11:03
Just to chip in...I have Mana racks under all my system, except the speakers/stands. They improved just about every aspect of the performance. However, due to where the speakers sit (either side of a victorian fireplace and one wedged into a tightish space) there simply was never enough room for mana (soundbases?) under the speakers.

Not a lot I could do about that ....however since discovering the quadraspire skeets that sit under the spikes of my very old kan stands, I am now convinced that they are doing something similar to what Mana does.

Music flows, and I get the same bass experience described by Marco.

Marco
12-06-2009, 11:23
Indeed, Steve.

The good news is that even though Mana are no longer in business, it is relatively easy to have idential replicas made at your local steel fabricators -go for non-magnetic stainless steel, which is what I use. Once the 'ferrous effect' is removed, which is what adversely affects the performance of angle-iron stuff, the difference is not subtle...

All it takes is a template for them to copy, including the spikes, and then a trip to your local B&Q or Wickes for some MDF for the boards; cut them to size and get them laminated, and then for the shelves, go to your local glazier and have bits of glass cut to size with polished edges. There are also power-coating companies around who will spray the finished metal whatever colour you want - it doesn't have to be black ;)

This is what I've done, as 90% of my supports now are 'clones'. The process is not difficult, and all-in-all the cost is significantly less compared to what Mana used to charge!! :eyebrows:

So if anyone wants a slice of the 'Mana effect', you now know what to do!

Marco.

SteveW
12-06-2009, 12:46
I may have a crack at replicating Mana one day. I'd be really interested especially as you probably had them done locally ..I'll let you know Marco !!

The only thing that might be tricky is those strips that John used to put on the glass...rather special stuff I believe ?

Marco
12-06-2009, 17:00
I've got some of it put aside for projects, mate. You know me for attention to detail ;)

It's actually a real shame what happened to the company in the end. It's a bloody good product which, if branded, marketed and sold properly should have made JW a millionaire... But he fucked it up, royally!

Did he ever tell you the story of Mana's demise in the end? I'll give you all the gory details when you visit :)

Marco.

SteveW
12-06-2009, 17:32
He seemed pretty happy to me, last time I saw him.

Marco
12-06-2009, 17:41
Oh he's not unhappy - far from it - he's relieved it's all over!

*But* that doesn't detract from the fact that he should have been a very wealthy man as a result of selling the product, but it just never happened like that because he trusted the wrong people and, I'm sorry to say, didn't really know how to run a business properly. That wasn't his skill or where his head was 'at'.

In the end, it was costing him significant sums of money just to keep the company alive... It hadn't made a profit for years.

When did you last see him? We only exchange Christmas cards now, and that's largely because Del gets on well with Julie.

Marco.

SteveW
13-06-2009, 05:24
I loose track of time...it must be more than a year ago.
John rebuilt my 'fruitbox'...which I was more than happy with until all this direct drive malarky started...and now very curious to hear what all the fuss is about.
John had gone down the Funk route...which sounded astonishing to me. In fact when funds allow that was the route I intended to explore as well.

Marco
13-06-2009, 09:26
LOL! It's a great word "fruitbox", innit? Coined, I believe, by the infamous 'doctor' from Glasgow after his unceremonious switch to an SME20... :eyebrows:

A fully Funk'd LP12 does sound very good - *if* you like the LP12's inherent euphonic signature, which the Funk mods go some way to diluting, but nevertheless fundamentally remain part of its 'charm'. It has a more tonally rich presentation to the Techy's, tighter, punchier, but altogether tonally 'cooler' one. It's one of the reasons why I like using cartridges such as the DL-103 and M3D with the 1210, as their slightly more 'romantic' way of music-making, and warmth, combines with the analytical nature of the 1210 to give a satisfying and 'natural' sounding result with music.

This is partly why I don't think Rega arms and, say, Lyra cartridges work with the Techy, as the combined sonic presentation thus veers too much towards the 'tonally grey' and a rather analytical sound, majoring on forensic detail retrieval. It is not something which I consider as a relaxing or fundamentally 'musical' listen. One must seek to create a complimentary balance, which is where the Jelco SA-750/DL-103SA (or M3D) combo comes in.

It's one of the reasons why I think some people have rejected the Techy in favour of the Pioneer PL-71, because the latter uses a good quality arm which synergistally matches the presentation of the turntable, and thus everything 'pulls together' in one direction to create a musical whole. The stock Techy arm is not really at the races in the same way, certainly with an MC cartridge at the helm. It's therefore no coincidence I feel that those who've rejected the Techy on the basis of it lacking in 'musicality' or 'boogie factor' (compared to the PL-71) were using it with Rega (or Rega-based) arms.

A fully modified SL-1210, like mine, exhibits none of the euphony of the LP12, as recordings are simply stripped bare for inspection, allowing 'musicality' to come from the music itself, rather than coloration superimposed on the signal by the turntable. In short, it is a much more 'accurate' listen; possessing the unerring stability of CD (or computer audio), but with the warmth of tone and superior dynamic range of vinyl (with suitable material).

I think that's the best way of summing it up!

Steve, you may prefer the presentation of the former to the latter, many people do, so it'll be interesting to see what you think :)

Marco.

SteveW
13-06-2009, 10:28
Cheers Marco..I'll give you a call sometime as I'd love to actually hear what you've described.
I have to avoid looking at dropping something into my current system, (which is all Linn kit), as next year I'm changing most of it...so have to consider the overall balance. I suspect the bass lift of an LP12 suits my 'bass light' active tukans I currently have.
I need to avoid the kind of mistakes I have made in the past. I still have a Roksan Xerxes in a box in the loft...(whose platter eventually touched the base plate). Sounded great when it worked in the context of the system I had previously but actually didn't sound right when partnered with my active klouts/tukans...they seemed to show up the lack of detail for that configuration of deck at that time.

SteveW
13-06-2009, 11:15
....just a thought. Has anyone actually listened to a modified Technics, or other DD...and thought, no not for me?

Marco
13-06-2009, 11:40
Oh yes, just read some of the threads for example on pfm!

However, let's say I'm rather dubious as to how 'genuine' and/or thorough some of the listening experiences were ;)

You might feel the same way, of course, and consider that it's not for you, but at least after a visit to mine you'll have heard a D/D turntable sympathetically matched and properly set-up from which to form a proper conclusion :)

Btw Dave (DSJR),

I forgot to comment earlier on this:


By the way Marco, the LAST thing I'd be listening to is your system when I do get to visit - I'd rather enjoy the *music* coming out of it, as your tastes may be poles apart from mine and it's always good to come away with a fresh list of albums to buy


Too right, matey! And I'm sure that I can introduce you to some unusual pieces which will tickle your taste buds :cool:

Marco.

DSJR
13-06-2009, 12:10
Can't say when, but I very much look forward to it one day. I jave an open invitation to HiFi Dave's place (he's got some splendid new and old toys to play with), yet I haven't ventured there since April last year (he's an hour or so away.........)

Actually, I'd love to "listen" to your system, purely 'cos I'm a huge fan of good vintage and inspired designs................. :gig:

Marco
24-06-2009, 10:09
15" Monitor Golds with updated high quality crossovers (using SONIQS caps - link shown below) are due for arrival in the next week :)

http://www.soniqs.co.uk/ (See type SAX Polypropylene).

When they arrive, the plan is to compare the 15" Monitor Reds to 15" Golds in the Lockwood cabinets and finally decide which ones to keep.

The Golds have a treble emphasis/de-emphasis control fitted as part of the design (although it can be removed), so they will initially be assessed with this in-line with the signal path, set at 'flat'.

If it's immediately obvious that the Golds are better, even with this control present, then it will be removed and the drivers used 'wide open', and then also hard-wired directly to the crossovers, removing the present connector plug. It'll then be job done, and the Reds will be returned to the dealer.

The cable I'll be using for hard-wiring the drivers is CS-14 Hybrid from VDH (thereby maintaining a complete VDH cable loom from amp to speakers):

http://www.vandenhul.com/p_D03AF.aspx

The existing speaker binding posts on the Lockwood cabinets will removed and upgraded to these solder-less high quality gold over solid copper types from CMC:

http://www.hificollective.co.uk/images/cmc858lcul.gif

If the Monitor Reds end up being best, then they'll be receiving the same treatment, although these of course don't have the treble controls. The Golds in original condition will then be returned to the dealer. These will not be modified unless they are unquestionably superior.

Just to recap, the issues under test will be:

1) How my Copper amp with 6 Ohms taps reacts to both the Reds at 15 Ohms and the Golds at 8 Ohms - in short, ascertaining the effects of correct impedance matching between the amplifier and loudspeakers.

2) Taking into consideration the results of the above and the resulting varying sonic presentations, deciding which drive units overall give the best results, musically, in my system. A huge variety of music will be used in the test, and this will be done at some length. The last thing I want to end up with is a one-trick pony, which anyway I think will be unlikely.

Regardless of anything else, this will be quite an educational exercise. I'm not sure how many times vintage Tannoy drivers have been scrutinised and compared in this way. You can't accuse me of not being thorough! ;)

Anyway, it should be fun... Full report will follow soon! :cool:

Marco.

DSJR
24-06-2009, 13:48
Marco, old Google memories here, but if I find the link I'll post it (it was a link of a link of a link.....IIRC), but I'm sure that 'minus 1' on the level control is actually the straight through "flat" setting, even with the 15" drivers. I think it was someone in Australia who took some 15" MG's and built them into the recommended volume 300L double wall and sand filled cabinets and described the crossover tweaks accordingly. These huge cabs looked great and very menacing when he'd finished them...

Spectral Morn
24-06-2009, 14:18
15" Monitor Golds with updated high quality crossovers (using SONIQS caps - link shown below) are due for arrival in the next week :)

http://www.soniqs.co.uk/ (See type SAX Polypropylene).

When they arrive, the plan is to compare the 15" Monitor Reds to 15" Golds in the Lockwood cabinets and finally decide which ones to keep.

The Golds have a treble emphasis/de-emphasis control fitted as part of the design (although it can be removed), so they will initially be assessed with this in-line with the signal path, set at 'flat'.

If it's immediately obvious that the Golds are better, even with this control present, then it will be removed and the drivers used 'wide open', and then also hard-wired directly to the crossovers, removing the present connector plug. It'll then be job done, and the Reds will be returned to the dealer.

The cable I'll be using for hard-wiring the drivers is CS-14 Hybrid from VDH (thereby maintaining a complete VDH cable loom from amp to speakers):

http://www.vandenhul.com/p_D03AF.aspx

The existing speaker binding posts on the Lockwood cabinets will removed and upgraded to these solder-less high quality gold over solid copper types from CMC:

http://www.hificollective.co.uk/images/cmc858lcul.gif

If the Monitor Reds end up being best, then they'll be receiving the same treatment, although these of course don't have the treble controls. The Golds in original condition will then be returned to the dealer. These will not be modified unless they are unquestionably superior.

Just to recap, the issues under test will be:

1) How my Copper amp with 6 Ohms taps reacts to both the Reds at 15 Ohms and the Golds at 8 Ohms - in short, ascertaining the effects of correct impedance matching between the amplifier and loudspeakers.

2) Taking into consideration the results of the above and the resulting varying sonic presentations, deciding which drive units overall give the best results, musically, in my system. A huge variety of music will be used in the test, and this will be done at some length. The last thing I want to end up with is a one-trick pony, which anyway I think will be unlikely.

Regardless of anything else, this will be quite an educational exercise. I'm not sure how many times vintage Tannoy drivers have been scrutinised and compared in this way. You can't accuse me of not being thorough! ;)

Anyway, it should be fun... Full report will follow soon! :cool:

Marco.

I am shocked Van den Hull not Mark Grant or some other better (nearly anything is better) cable. IMHO VDH is veiled and coloured. I would dump that in favour of something more open, detailed and neutral. I have never heard a VDH cable that is right yet...again offered in my humble opinion.


Regards D S D L

The Grand Wazoo
24-06-2009, 14:36
I am shocked Van den Hull not Mark Grant or some other better (nearly anything is better) cable. IMHO VDH is veiled and coloured. I would dump that in favour of something more open, detailed and neutral. I have never heard a VDH cable that is right yet...again offered in my humble opinion.


Regards D S D L

Got to admit, I noticed that. Which then got me wondering what became of the solid core twin & earth experiments too???

Marco
24-06-2009, 14:59
LOL. Neil, you must have missed when I recently changed my speaker cable from Belden to VDH 'The Wind Hybrid II' (check my signature), shown here:

http://www.vandenhul.com/p_C28.aspx

I agreed with your view wholeheadtedly up until then...

VDH cable suits Tannoys really well (I did my research on this), and also 'The Wind Hybrid II' exhibits none of the characteristics whatsoever I've experienced in the past with VDH stuff, namely it being soft, dull souding, and rather 'bloated'.

This stuff sounds fresh as a daisy, and is one of the most open, dynamic, detailed and musical cables I've heard. The lack of 'diode effect' (compared with twin-conductor stranded cables), and its ultra-low capacitance, due to the single-conductor construction appears to be significantly responsible :)

I'm not sure if you've used single-conductor type speaker cables before, but you effectively have a dedicated conductor (and, in turn, cable) for the positive and negative inputs of each speaker. This is the first time I've used this type of speaker cable and the results are fantastic. It was a little bright sounding at first, but now it's 'burnt-in', it's just very open, airy, and fluid sounding, and extremely musically coherent, too.

This is what I meant about the importance of keeping an open mind and re-evaluating your opinion, if or when you discover it is flawed, as I mentioned on the cassette thread ;)

I'm hopeful that the CS-14 Hybrid internal wire will have the same effect. If not I'll just say 'bugger it' and fit the same stuff as my speaker cable, but that's a bit more expensive at £50 per metre!

I intend to keep my Mark Grant interconnects and digital cable, though, as those are superb. Anyway, I'll report in due course the results I get when the Monitor Golds arrive :cool:

Marco.

Marco
24-06-2009, 15:03
Hi Chris


Got to admit, I noticed that. Which then got me wondering what became of the solid core twin & earth experiments too???

That's not done and dusted yet; it needs to be revisited again at some point when Ian brings his new 'beasts' round to compare with my Transparents :)

Marco.

Spectral Morn
24-06-2009, 16:49
LOL. Neil, you must have missed when I recently changed my speaker cable from Belden to VDH 'The Wind Hybrid II' (check my signature), shown here:

http://www.vandenhul.com/p_C28.aspx

I agreed with your view wholeheadtedly up until then...

VDH cable suits Tannoys really well (I did my research on this), and also 'The Wind Hybrid II' exhibits none of the characteristics whatsoever I've experienced in the past with VDH stuff, namely it being soft, dull souding, and rather 'bloated'.

This stuff sounds fresh as a daisy, and is one of the most open, dynamic, detailed and musical cables I've heard. The lack of 'diode effect' (compared with twin-conductor stranded cables), and its ultra-low capacitance, due to the single-conductor construction appears to be significantly responsible :)

I'm not sure if you've used single-conductor type speaker cables before, but you effectively have a dedicated conductor (and, in turn, cable) for the positive and negative inputs of each speaker. This is the first time I've used this type of speaker cable and the results are fantastic. It was a little bright sounding at first, but now it's 'burnt-in', it's just very open, airy, and fluid sounding, and extremely musically coherent, too.

This is what I meant about the importance of keeping an open mind and re-evaluating your opinion, if or when you discover it is flawed, as I mentioned on the cassette thread ;)

I'm hopeful that the CS-14 Hybrid internal wire will have the same effect. If not I'll just say 'bugger it' and fit the same stuff as my speaker cable, but that's a bit more expensive at £50 per metre!

I intend to keep my Mark Grant interconnects and digital cable, though, as those are superb. Anyway, I'll report in due course the results I get when the Monitor Golds arrive :cool:

Marco.


Yes quite right too. I have not used/heard this cable so *I assumed*:doh: wrongly that it was typical VDH. I am glad to see/hear VDH rise above the issues I have felt their cables have had for the past 20 years or so...or it may be this is a one off, either way glad it works for you in your set up.

It is dangerous to assume...guilty as charged.

Regards D S D L

RobHolt
24-06-2009, 16:51
Marco, if the crossover is anything like the one on the LGM, the level controls change tappings on an auto-transformer. These are actually very good quality and you might not get improvements replacing it with modern components.
I'd be tempted to just replace the caps (the SONIQS are excellent), clean the switchwork and re-wire if you must.
Heavy cable isn't necessary but won't do any harm and regular gauge wire is fine, especially as the driver impedance is high.

Marco
24-06-2009, 17:09
Thanks for that, Rob. I appreciate your advice :)

I'll definitely bear in mind what you’ve said when I'm listening. My view was simply that the treble controls were something 'extra' in the way which wasn't really necessary.

I'm a great believer in the shortest signal paths possible, with minimal 'interruption', and components hard-wired in circuit as much as is achievable, physically and electrically.

The proof of the pudding though, as always, will be in the listening :cool:

Dave, if you can find the link you mentioned that would be great!

Marco.

Marco
24-06-2009, 17:13
Yes quite right too. I have not used/heard this cable so *I assumed*:doh: wrongly that it was typical VDH. I am glad to see/hear VDH rise above the issues I have felt their cables have had for the past 20 years or so...or it may be this is a one off, either way glad it works for you in your set up.

It is dangerous to assume...guilty as charged.


Neil, no worries mate. I've done it myself plenty of times in the past! :)

Marco.

DSJR
26-06-2009, 20:16
Found it!!!!!

http://44bx.com/tannoy/mods.html

This is the link I wanted to find.

Hope it proves interesting..

Marco
26-06-2009, 20:35
Hey, Dave, thanks for that - how very interesting!

I'll comment later after my current marathon listening session :cool:

Marco.

Marco
27-06-2009, 11:05
Hi Dave,

The cabinets shown look interesting, but are very different in shape to my Lockwoods. They look taller and deeper, with the Lockwoods being considerable wider. I suspect, however, that overall the quoted internal volume of 300 litres is similar. Also, the Lockwoods are a sealed box, apart from a port/vent (I'm not quite sure which) on the base.

From the link:


When making these plans I received the interesting comment that the old Tannoy drivers can produce a very modern sound with such construction but that some people have been disappointed if part of what they liked about the older Tannoys was the warmth of box colourations. Personally I doubt that anyone would prefer the tubby sound of the Lancasters over the improved clarity, dynamics and extension of my big boxes.


This is exactly what I've found. The Reds in the Lockwood cabinets do produce a modern sound - there is nothing warm, 'old-fashioned' or 'tubby' about their presentation whatsoever; just shockingly vivid and 'real', musically coherent, and thus highly addictive.


These speakers have quite a few non-soldered contacts that might have corroded with time. Minimising the number of dry contacts gave a subjective improvement in both treble quality and quantity, mostly the former. The crossover has two switches, in series with the tweeter. One switch ("energy") selects taps on a choke to step the tweeter signal up or down. The middle position was initially selected for the best tonal balance and hardwired. The other switch ("rolloff") gives a flat position of various amounts of rolloff. I hardwired the flat position.
Another set of dry contacts is a plug and socket arrangement on the chassis of the driver. The socket can be reversed to act as a convenient set of soldering lugs, like a little tag strip, to solder the speaker connections.


Interesting. It confirms my modification methodology. This is why I'll be doing exactly as is described above if I go for the Monitor Golds, or otherwise hard-wiring the Reds.


How do the older Monitor Gold drivers sound next to the more modern 3838 drivers? A friend brought some 3838s to my place in reflex boxes about 2/3 the size of mine. The first obvious difference was lower efficiency. Equal volume required an extra 2 clicks on my stepped volume controls which amounts to about 4db difference. Overall the Golds sounded more "effortless". "Effortless" is a common description of the sound of efficient speakers but another factor could have been my low power amp being 4db closer to clipping with the 3838s. There was a small region of the mid-range that seemed a little smoother on the 3838s, perhaps the effect of the struts on the rear on the cone preventing some cone breakup that the Monitor Golds might have. The older driver was prefered at the frequency extremes, deeper bass and more "airy" top end. Otherwise the family resemblance was clear and the sound was quite similar.


Again, this is exactly what I've observed myself when using my Lockwoods (Reds) and Ian Walker's Canterburys, which use the 15" 3889 drivers, as examples. Both have their individual merits, but as the article says, the "family resemblance" is quite clear.

Overall, it was a very interesting and informative article, so thanks for posting it. I'm just counting down the days now until the Golds arrive so that I can conduct the forthcoming comparisons :)

Marco.

DSJR
27-06-2009, 11:28
Glad you found the link interesting. I love these stories with pics and it's part of my makeup that I can seem to retain much of what I read (except the crucial links :D). I wish my academic studies were as easy.........

Jonboy
28-06-2009, 13:16
I think i have read all of your very helpfull and interesting journey with the reds so far, in your opion or that of any others would you consider buying a pair of Tannoy Sterlings (latest spec) over say a pair of vintage golds or even reds for simular value as the above which have been offered to me for about £900 below list , i run various valve amps and have heard the sterlings with my kit but i have not heard vintage Tannoys to compare them to or against.
The sterlings are a compromise i suppose you could say as the funds aren't available for there bigger and better counterparts:(

Marco
28-06-2009, 17:52
Hi Jonboy,

As awesome as Monitor Reds and Golds are (especially the 15" versions), I wouldn't entertain buying them unless they're housed in suitably large, high quality cabinets, and have been fitted with up-to-date crossovers - otherwise you'll only hear a fraction of their full potential. Therefore, this makes them a tricky safe second-hand buy.

It all depends how 'keen' you are, and if you're willing to go the extra mile to get something truly special. The rewards of doing so, however, are substantial.

In that respect, the Stirlings (which I presume are what you meant):

http://ep.yimg.com/ip/I/yhst-11482392980725_2054_382093095

...are a much safer bet, and will undoubtedly sound excellent, although perhaps losing out on a degree of the magic afforded by the best vintage designs, especially with 15" drivers. The Stirlings use 12" units, so will not have the depth and scale of the larger vintage models when fully optimised. However, on the end of a suitably capable system, they'll still outperform many other loudspeakers on the market in key areas of music reproduction.

The decision is yours! :cool:

Marco.

speakers-1989
05-07-2009, 22:24
Arrrghhhhhhhh Marco:steam:

I feel like taking your Monitor Reds/Lockwoods away from you.

Did you buy them from Bigears audio? And when are you going to take some better pics of the Tannoy's? Will love to see those Monitor Reds.

sastusbulbas
11-07-2009, 11:13
Hi Marco :),

Even bigger speakers eh! less Mana too! I know the problem with floor standers, I can only get one Soundbase under each Kef and even without the Kef are high enough.

Looks good if a little overwhelming in that room, no problems with corner boundaries?

Steve

Marco
11-07-2009, 12:32
Hi Steve,

How's it going, matey? Yep, bigger speakers again, and bloody marvellous they are too! They're amongst the best I've ever heard - no question.

They may look overwhelming in the room from the photographs, but they work very well in there, as I'm sure two guests who visited last night for a sesh would confirm ;)

My thanks go to Steve and Vinnie for being so kind and going to the effort of transporting Vinnie's rather large and heavy speakers, with 15" Monitor Golds in, and bringing them round for me to hear - nice one, guys!

Huge speakers can work very well in pretty small rooms *if* the room is right in terms of acoustics to suit the speakers chosen, the speakers themselves have been chosen to compliment the rest of the equipment, and everything has been optimally set-up. I think that I've managed to tick all those boxes :smoking:

You get an intimacy and 'physicality' to the musical presentation, which I love, and is sometimes lost or diminished in larger rooms, depending on your seating position.

At the moment I'm just finalising what drive units to choose between the Monitor Reds and Golds. Last night I heard Vinnie's rather nice 15" Golds in smaller cabinets to my Lockwoods, which showed beyond a doubt that the Monitor Gold drive units and crossovers my dealer sent recently aren't right. I suspect that something is amiss with the wiring of the crossovers.

Therefore, I just need to get this fixed and hear some 15" Golds performing optimally in my Lockwoods to come to a final decision, so for the moment my Tannoy journey continues... :cool:

Marco.

aquapiranha
11-07-2009, 14:58
Hi Steve,



My thanks go to Steve and Vinnie for being so kind and going to the effort of transporting Vinnie's rather large and heavy speakers, with 15" Monitor Golds in, and bringing them round for me to hear - nice one, guys!



Marco.

Marco, you are very welcome! Please pass on my thanks to Del also for the devilishly good food that she must have spent along while preparing!

I can confirm that there are no room issues with the Tannoys in Marco's room and that in fact they sound bloody awesome!

Steve

:)

Marco
11-07-2009, 16:35
Cheers, Steve. I'll pass on your words of appreciation to the resident chef-esse :eyebrows:

Have you devoured your doggy-bag yet?

Glad you enjoyed it last night - it's always a pleasure having you round :)

Marco.

P.S Cheers for doing the CDs; they're fab!

Ian Walker
11-07-2009, 17:08
Vinnie....Vinnie where are you........last seen disapearing through that little door:lol:

Marco
11-07-2009, 17:22
Yesh he's in there now shtrapped up in chains dreshed as Sooty... I'm jusht going in now to make him shqueak :lol: :lol:

Marco.

P.S Steve, you'll need to post the 'little 'n' large' speaker photo!

bonneville
11-07-2009, 21:28
I dusted off my passport and ventured south of the Dee to the land of funny hats and male voice choirs to check out the analogue boys new toys.I must say from the outset what a pleasurable experience it turned out to be.Wined and dined fit to burst by our host and his good lady Del with course after course of succulent Chinese delicacies.
The main course however stood upstairs in Marco's listening room,I tried to ignore "the door" and took to inspect the Tannoy reds in their Lockwood cabinets for me they are quite Art Deco in style which really appealed to my taste.
Next up was the copper amp,which was only was afforded second shelf on the Mana shelf stack taking second place to the Technics turntable, if it where mine it would never be off the top podium it is stunning to look at but how would it sound I asked myself.

Well ! the sound was simply stunning on a diverse range of musical material it quite simply did everything without effort, Marco's attention to detail really paid off

I was a bit in awe of Marco's system:( but when we substituted my Monitor golds for the Reds things continued along similar lines a slightly different presentation but never the less still a great sound .;)

I don't know whether it was the great volume of beer I had consumed or not ,but I swear that during track changes I could hear voices from behind "the door" some kind of parallel universe going on .Maybe it was my imagination but who knows ,the hanging judge Jefferies has strong links with the property.

Seriously a big thanks to Marco & Del also Steve for such a great night.


ps and I am here to tell the tale,

Vinnie:lolsign:

Marco
11-07-2009, 21:48
Drats, you've managed to eshcape! I'll soon have you back where you belong, behind that door, my leetle munchkin... :eyebrows:

Glad you enjoyed your visit, Vinnie. It was certainly a pleasure having you round, and thanks again for allowing me to hear your speakers. I really did like them, and it's shown me that Monitor Golds definitely possess a goodly chunk of the magic of the Reds.

I hope most of the music was to your tastes, but noticed you failed to get up and 'boogie' when the Techy was spinning Falty DL, and the brooding, melodic dance vibes shook da room... :gig:


Next up was the copper amp,which was only was afforded second shelf on the Mana shelf stack taking second place to the Technics turntable, if it where mine it would never be off the top podium


The Techy's only there because the bottom bit of the rack isn't a true 'shelf' (too boring to explain!), so if I put it on that bit, there wouldn't be enough room to get in and change records, otherwise the Copper amp would definitely take pride of place on top as it deserves to :)

We'll need to do it again sometime, perhaps with mad-boy Dave towing along next time. I hope he enjoyed the Eagles concert, although at times last night I think we had our own little private gig going on :fingers:

Take care, old chap!

Marco.

bonneville
11-07-2009, 22:19
Old Chap! old chap! what are yiu trying to say? I'am in me prime dont you know .although lugging the Golds up and down your stairs was knee buckling ;)
Vinnie

aquapiranha
11-07-2009, 22:23
P.S Steve, you'll need to post the 'little 'n' large' speaker photo!

Indeed. Sorry about the dodgy quality, though I do find it adds a kind of 'Blair Witch Project' realism to the much talked about door...

http://i205.photobucket.com/albums/bb256/aquapiranha/Photo0129.jpg

Marco
11-07-2009, 22:28
Nice one, Steve. Can you get it so that it shows up as a bigger image automatically without having to click on it?

I can usually do this by selecting a different URL code for forums on Imageshack, and copying it and pasting this onto posts :)

Marco.

bonneville
11-07-2009, 22:33
WOT and show up my dodgy joinery skills?:doh:

aquapiranha
11-07-2009, 22:36
Nice one, Steve. Can you get it so that it shows up as a bigger image automatically without having to click on it?

I can usually do this by selecting a different URL code for forums on Imageshack, and copying it and pasting this onto posts :)

Marco.

It is done.

aquapiranha
11-07-2009, 22:37
Nowt wrong with them Vinnie, better finish than mine!

Marco
11-07-2009, 22:48
That's better, Steve. Even with the poor picture quality, you can now get a more approximate idea of the difference in size.

I agree... Vinnie, you've done a great job on the cabs, given where they came from and your, errm, 'slight' lack of tools ;)

Btw, it's time to get back behind the door... Come on now, chop, chop! :lolsign:

Marco.

ff1d1l
13-07-2009, 14:02
Hi Marco

Have some interesting tannoys, including 15" reds in repro autograph cabs. You're very welcome to get in touch if you fancy hooking up sometime and talking (and listening) tannoys. I live in snowdonia, so not too far away from you.

Regards


Nial

Marco
13-07-2009, 14:21
Sounds very interesting, Nial. I may well take you up on that!

What system are you running with them?

Welcome to AOS, btw :)

Marco.

ff1d1l
13-07-2009, 15:03
Sounds very interesting, Nial. I may well take you up on that!

What system are you running with them?

Welcome to AOS, btw :)

Marco.

The system in my workshop is a Tandberg 2075 feeding the autos, a denon 2900 feeding it if not the radio.

In the house a modded lenco in a slate plinth, 12" sme, van den hul frog, border patrol modded audio innovations p2 phonostage straight into a modded leak st20. Speakers are 12" golds in large homebuilt plaster reinforced cabs with silver crossovers.

Before you ask the autos won't fit in the house!

Also have 15"HPD's, 15" golds and uncabinetted 12" silvers, the rare blue ones...I use the crossovers from them in the house system.

Nial

ff1d1l
13-07-2009, 15:07
Meant to say, thanks for the welcome too!

Regards


Nial

bonneville
13-07-2009, 19:45
Hi Any chance of photo's?

Vinnie:)

ff1d1l
13-07-2009, 21:08
Take some photos....no prob
Posting them on here...no idea!

Any pointers how its done?


Nial

Marco
13-07-2009, 21:27
Hi Nial,

See here: http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=2

Btw, you're system sounds like pure audio porn! :respect:

Marco.

MartinT
14-07-2009, 06:53
I still have a Roksan Xerxes in a box in the loft...(whose platter eventually touched the base plate)

I managed to sell mine just in time, but my base plate was sagging too. I have never forgiven Roksan for that design horror or their total lack of support for the deck.

ff1d1l
14-07-2009, 11:22
Hi Any chance of photo's?

Vinnie:)

Some pics


The Lenco in slate plinth and the St 20 below, the Leak has had modern binding posts fitted and an alps pot, also wondercaps and nos telefunken output valves. The lenco was modded along the lines of the audiogon thread - resin reinforcement of top plate, replace springs with elastic, deaden idler wheel and arm with ptfe tape, rebuild and lube motor, clean and relube main bearing (and others!). I had a lingo & cirkus Linn with a Naim aro on prior to my Lenco adventure - same cartridge. I'd say this set up is an order of magnitude better, maybe 30 to 50 percent improvement. And the bass definition is of a quality the Linn never even hinted at.

http://img406.imageshack.us/img406/5908/lencoleak.jpg

http://img300.imageshack.us/img300/7500/lencoleakp2.jpg



The curse of the mummy effect on the arm is ptfe tape - notable reduction of strain and increase in clarity on loud passages makes this a top tip worthy of the pages of Viz.



http://img440.imageshack.us/img440/4152/armclose.jpg

Speakers are birch ply, extensively braced between inner walls then with plaster cast inside to give non parallel surfaces. Rapping the cabinet confirms they are VERY dead. Cheap Argos duvet for internal wadding. Internal wiring PTFE wrapped silver. Ports are adjustable and I sometimes do. Driver chassis are earthed to house earth and magnet assembly braced from rear of cabinet. Dustcap removed too. These are the 12" monitor golds with butyl surrounds, btw. Crossovers aren't stock gold crossovers with adjustable pots, but are from silver series, and are external, connection with 4 terminal Speakon. Cable to amp is twin and earth mains cable (Twin and earth mains? I'll get my coat....)



http://img440.imageshack.us/img440/6078/speakerh.jpg

Will take some photos of the Autographs and post soon.

Nial

Steve Toy
14-07-2009, 12:05
That is an incredibly well set up system. It must sound amazing.

TheMooN
14-07-2009, 12:28
Have you checked those original 8uf and 2uf crossover capacitors Nial ?

Given yours seem to be quite early Xovers they are probably oilers however poss might be early lytics ergo prone to going :bog:

ff1d1l
14-07-2009, 12:52
Have you checked those original 8uf and 2uf crossover capacitors Nial ?

Given yours seem to be quite early Xovers they are probably oilers however poss might be early lytics ergo prone to going :bog:

I haven't - the crossover boxes/tins are sealed and mint, so I'd be loath to open them. But pretty sure silver crossovers capacitors were oil anyway. Occasionally you see them dismembered on ebay or the web, and seem to be oil as far as I can recall.

And Steve...mmm, really doesn't sound too bad at all!


Nial

TheMooN
14-07-2009, 15:31
I haven't - the crossover boxes/tins are sealed and mint, so I'd be loath to open them. But pretty sure silver crossovers capacitors were oil anyway. Occasionally you see them dismembered on ebay or the web, and seem to be oil as far as I can recall.

And Steve...mmm, really doesn't sound too bad at all!


Nial

Always the problem with Silver/Red crossover boxes for sure :scratch:
In the end I used to build my own mostly so I could play around with components ~ The Golds are a breeze in comparison if you are not too cack handed to drill out a couple of rivets , and I would always recommend replacing the Lytics if nothing else !

ff1d1l
14-07-2009, 15:45
Always the problem with Silver/Red crossover boxes for sure :scratch:
In the end I used to build my own mostly so I could play around with components ~ The Golds are a breeze in comparison if you are not too cack handed to drill out a couple of rivets , and I would always recommend replacing the Lytics if nothing else !

Well, have several gold crossovers, and they surely don't sound as good as the silvers, so might well give it a whirl. But as well as having paper in oil caps the 12" silvers have no switches either, and are (I believe?cant remember where I got this!) a rather simpler circuit so maybe thats why they are preferable...

But thanks very much for the diagram/pic. Will get to it when I have some time...


Nial

TheMooN
14-07-2009, 16:04
Quite true Nial ~ Circuit for your Silver 12" Xovers

Marco
14-07-2009, 16:04
Hi guys,

I'll contribute more later, been a bit busy today, but do any of you have detailed pictures of wiring diagrams/circuits for the original Gold crossovers (these would be useful for something I'm doing at the moment) or also any pictures of original Red crossovers, so I can compare them to what I've got in my Lockwoods? :)

Any help here would be appreciated. Cheers!

Marco.

TheMooN
14-07-2009, 18:21
15" er Red ~

+ This link for 15" Gold Info http://www.hilberink.nl/speaker1.htm

Marco
14-07-2009, 18:26
Nice one, Roger, but with Reds I meant actual pictures of crossovers, as per your post #175 :)

Cheers for the link to Golds! :cool:

Marco.

TheMooN
14-07-2009, 18:43
Nice one, Roger, but with Reds I meant actual pictures of crossovers, as per your post #175 :)

Marco.

I shall have a look on a couple of old drives however I fear I have lost the images I took when farting around with my original Reds + New Builds ,As Nial has already eluded not many folks are prepared to take the Big Tin Opener to Silver/Red Xovers ergo images thin on the ground .

Marco
14-07-2009, 18:49
No worries, Roger. I fully understand. See what you can come up with :)

Marco.

Marco
19-07-2009, 23:22
Some interesting discoveries have been made, folks, regarding Reds vs. Golds, so stay tuned - all will be revealed soon! :eyebrows:

Marco.

Mike
20-07-2009, 08:59
so stay tuned

I'll pass, thanks.... My attention span expired long ago! :lol:

Marco
20-07-2009, 09:20
Hahahaha... Much like mine with your bloody never-ending T/T and cartridge shenanigans! :lolsign:

How does your deck sound since it's come back from Vantage? I've seen nowt mentioned about it... :confused:

Marco.

Mike
20-07-2009, 18:27
Hahahaha... Much like mine with your bloody never-ending T/T and cartridge shenanigans! :lolsign:

Too right mate! :lolsign:



How does your deck sound since it's come back from Vantage? I've seen nowt mentioned about it... :confused:

Really good actually. But it's very hard to tell exactly what the Vantage service and mods have done, I'm using a different amp and speakers since it went away so I can't really pin it down! :scratch:

bonneville
24-07-2009, 21:24
Some interesting discoveries have been made, folks, regarding Reds vs. Golds, so stay tuned - all will be revealed soon! :eyebrows:

Marco.

Come on then ! I am not bored but dont you dare slag off my golds:lolsign:
seriously whats your findings?
Vin.

Marco
25-07-2009, 08:15
Hi Vinnie,

I've got the Golds in at the moment with original crossovers and they're none too shabby - a bit bass-heavy compared to the Reds, and a touch less open and 'out of the box', lacking their wonderfully expressive midrange, but enjoyable nonetheless :)

Mad-boy Dave's going to upgrade the Gold crossovers as per this mod:

http://www.guitars-of-love.com/tannoy15goldcrossovermods.htm

I've just waiting on the parts to arrive, which should come this morning or Monday, so we'll see what that brings to the party :cool:

Once I've made my decision on what drivers to go for, which will be done at the latest by the middle of next week, I'll do a full write-up of my findings.

Marco.

Marco
27-07-2009, 18:57
Ok, fellow Tannoyistas, tomorrow is 'D-day'... :)

I'll be testing the mods to the original Gold crossovers and seeing what effect it has overall on the performance of the 15" Gold drivers. Then I'll be swapping back to the Reds and making a final decision on which ones, in my opinion, are best (in the context of my system).

Full write-up to follow... I guarantee that it'll be the most comprehensive comparison between vintage Red and Gold Tannoy drivers on the 'Net, so don't miss it! ;)

Marco.

aquapiranha
27-07-2009, 21:24
Sounds interesting Marco, it's like 'King Kong V's Godzilla'

http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Dungeon/7494/gposter2.jpg


I hope you end up with a winner!

Marco
27-07-2009, 21:33
Hehehehe... I wanted to give the Golds the best possible chance, so you can't accuse me of not being thorough! :eyebrows:

I'm looking forward to hearing what the mods do to the original Gold Tannoy crossovers, as these (even un-modded) are far from being as bad (due to aging components) as I thought they might be.

If the Reds win, they'll be hardwired with the quoted VDH cable and that will be that - job done.

All will be revealed tomorrow :)

Marco.

aquapiranha
27-07-2009, 21:37
I would NEVER accuse you of not being thorough Marco, it is your trademark!

Ian Walker
28-07-2009, 17:53
I reckon he'll go for the Golds...anyone fancy a wager:)

aquapiranha
28-07-2009, 18:02
I reckon he'll go for the Golds...anyone fancy a wager:)

I am with you on that, my money would be on the golds too!

;)

bonneville
28-07-2009, 18:51
Golds !

Vinnie.

Ian Walker
28-07-2009, 19:12
or he could get a proper pair like mine...Canterburys:)

aquapiranha
28-07-2009, 19:24
or he could get a proper pair like mine...Canterburys:)

But they are just golds in fancy knickers.... :lol:

and anyway, if he does, you can help him get them up the bloody stairs! :lolsign:

Ian Walker
28-07-2009, 20:06
Anyone seen THE TWO DAVES?

lexi
28-07-2009, 20:28
All very interesting. Another devotee to the big open and tantalising Tannoy Sound.

I have never seen the foam surrounds on Hpd as an issue. Tannoy give you a new cone and surround all done to spec for about £450.........The price of a cartridge........and longer lasting.

When you think that the moving surround on Golds etc is 30 plus years old ........ how can one know if they are performing exactly as intended due to aging. Having heard the Golds and Reds etc I could not say whether it would have any effect.............who could? as they are still super speakers? Let your ears decide :lolsign:

Still apt to say that if you have great sound with real big speakers in a small room your then you have a very good room............and maybe vg speakers too.:scratch:

I thought the Devons were kinder in the smallish room that I use. They did not swamp the room with bass so easily. I have had to do lots to the Berkely (cabs room and system )to tame the bass a bit. Still happy with em..



Great thread Marco. Get a Tannoy thing going and people come from MILES....:lol:

Marco
28-07-2009, 22:18
Well, chaps, we've been at it all day and I'm bloody knackered with lifting the Lockwoods on and off the Mana supports, dismantling drivers, soldering crossovers (although I didn't do any of the last bit)..... And the result?

THE GOLDS WON !!..... :)

......fitted with the high quality, 'fancy' new crossovers supplied by Big Ears Audio (all hard-wired with VDH internal cable), not the original Tannoy crossovers, either modded or standard :cool:

Quite frankly, not to put too fine a point on it, the sound with this combination is ABSOLUTELY BREATHTAKINGLY STUNNING! To quote Dave (senior): "That's not a hi-fi system; it's a bloody live band in the room!!"

The Reds were very good, but in a rather different and somewhat limited way, in comparison...

I'll see if I can find time to do a full write-up tomorrow. Right now, chaps, it's back to playing some tunes, currently Buddy Guy's new album 'Skin Deep' :gig:

Laters!

Marco.

Beechwoods
29-07-2009, 21:18
Fantastic Marco! I'm looking forward to your full write up. And hearing them too, sometime soon hopefully!

symon
29-07-2009, 21:34
Fantastic Marco! I'm looking forward to your full write up. And hearing them too, sometime soon hopefully!

I might have to stowaway in your car if you end up driving up to the wilds of North Wales ;)

Marco
29-07-2009, 21:55
Hey that would be really cool, guys - I'm sure we would have a few larfs! :eyebrows:

We should thrash out some possible dates :smoking:

Unfortunately work has got in the way of doing the write-up - that and I can't drag myself away from listening to the Lockwoods long enough to sit down and type anything!!

One thing I will say is that I'm *so* glad that I persevered with the Golds... Quite frankly, if I hadn't done so I'd have missed out on how staggeringly good they can sound with the right crossovers (and cabinets).

As usual, it's a matter of combining the best of old and new technologies to get optimal results :)

More later!

Marco.

Marco
13-08-2009, 23:23
Guys,

Well, I decided that if the crossovers Chris from Big Ears Audio supplied were a pretty big improvement on the original ones from Tannoy, what would some über-high quality ones be like, using some of the best components available? I just had to find out!

As it is my birthday tomorrow (which is now, actually - LOL!), my lovely wife funded the purchase of said components as a very useful and thoughtful birthday prezzie!

So, with Clarity Cap MR-range polypropylene capacitors, Mundorf air-core foil coil inductors and Duelund Graphite Silver resistors installed on the crossovers, all hard-wired with silver solder, keeping signal paths as short as possible, and the drive units hard-wired with VDH CS-14 Hybrid cable throughout (thanks again to the 'two Daves' for all their hard work! :)), I sat down later this evening and listened........

Bloody hell, this is got to be one of *THE* biggest upgrades I've ever achieved with hi-fi - period!!! I'll go into more detail later on the sonic and musical differences upgrading the crossovers to this level has made, as I'm just about to hit the sack now, but suffice to say that it's nothing less than a total transformation!! The Golds were superb before but this is now a completely different ball game...

What has become patently obvious is that vintage Tannoy drivers such as Monitor Reds and Golds are extremely high quality designs, but are quite simply sleeping giants until you match them with modern crossovers using the best components available. A special word must go to the Clarity Cap MR capacitors - these are absolutely fantastic and probably largely responsible for the huge sonic improvement I've obtained, and they're made by ICW in Wrexham! For any of our D.I.Y-ers here I'd recommend them without hesitation. Some interesting technical info about the CC MRs here: http://www.hificollective.co.uk/pdf/claritycapmr.pdf

The thing is, the original Tannoy crossovers appear as being perfectly adequate for the job, but that state of affairs only exists until you hear just what they are capable of when released from the shackles of ageing, long past their sell-by date, capacitors and resistors - when they then turn into something truly and utterly stunning, giving music a breathtaking clarity, scale, and realism that really has to be heard to be believed. Quite honestly, I am utterly gob-smacked! :wow:

Anyway, it's nighty-night for the moment chaps. I will return soon (in a couple of days) to write the full report I've promised, but which has unfortunately been delayed by a bathroom decorating project that is now resolved but at one point had turned into a bloody nightmare (long story!)

Laters :cool:

Marco.

Barry
13-08-2009, 23:40
Many happy returns of today Marco.

Glad to hear of the acoustic improvements wrought about by the new crossovers (or is it the same crossovers but with upgraded components?)

Just two questions:
What did you listen to?

and

What did you drink?

Regards

Marco
13-08-2009, 23:42
Hi Barry,

Thanks for your birthday wishes :)

Crossovers are just a collective series of components, therefore when upgrading all the component parts of the design you are essentially creating new crossovers.

I'll answer the other questions tomorrow - if I get a chance to while I'm sober! ;)

:goodnight:

Marco.

Barry
14-08-2009, 01:36
Hi Marco,

I should have said is the 'Big Ears' crossover circuit unchanged? That is, the component values remain unchanged, the components having been replaced with ones of better quality.

Regards

Marco
14-08-2009, 08:15
Hi Barry,

I see what you mean now... No, the original circuit used in the crossovers Chris supplied remains the same (it's a very good one), but all the components that were used originally have been upgraded as described above :)

You know, the more I dabble in the modification route with hi-fi, taking equipment that is already fantastic in its own right and then releasing its full potential by upgrading key components in the design (such as I've already done with the Techy, Sony CDP/DAC and Croft), the more I realise that this, out with of hard-core D.I.Y, is the best way of obtaining the highest sound-per-pound, and truly remarkable performance from a hi-fi system.

I would urge people to try building a system this way, as the rewards are quite considerable and, most importantly, it kills constant 'box-swapping' and 'upgraditis' stone-dead. Effectively, the component parts of your system are 'sorted' at ground-roots level, so you aren't on a constant merry-go-round trying to 'fix' something that is often fundamentally broken by covering it up with a sticking plaster, saving yourself in many cases thousands of pounds that would've otherwise gone into the pockets of (some) unscrupulous dealers.

Some dealers of course are good guys, and we have a few represented here, but others are, well, you all know where I'm coming from! 'Bargain-buying' on Ebay, trying to patch together disparate bits of equipment to create a musically rewarding system doesn't work either, unless you know exactly what you're doing. This is rarely where true satisfaction lies.

Anyway, chaps, if you'll excuse me the sun is shining so we're off out for the day :smoking:

Much later!

Marco.

aquapiranha
14-08-2009, 08:20
Happy Birthday Marco. Have a good day.

Marco
14-08-2009, 09:44
Cheers, Steve - you'll need to come round for a listen :smoking:

Off out now!

Marco.

aquapiranha
14-08-2009, 09:45
Indeed I will! See you soon.

:)

Barry
14-08-2009, 10:45
What party frock are you wearing today? A little Grayson Perry number?

Trust it is colour coordinated to match the Lockwoods. :eyebrows:

Marco
14-08-2009, 16:18
As it was a sunny summer's day, and I was a birthday girl, my chosen ensemble was a veritable vision of citrus... I was therefore resplendent in a shlinky little lemon and lime floral taffeta cocktail dress, with matching handbag, suntan stockings, and high-heeled peep-toe court sandles, so I didn't dress up *too* much... :eyebrows:

...no that'll happen later when we go out for dinner, where I'll really be letting my hair down (with a blonde bouffant wig hugging my bonce)! :lol:

Marco.

Mike
14-08-2009, 16:27
You know, the more I dabble in the modification route with hi-fi, taking equipment that is already fantastic in its own right and then releasing its full potential by upgrading key components in the design (such as I've already done with the Techy, Sony CDP/DAC and Croft), the more I realise that this, out with of hard-core D.I.Y, is the best way of obtaining the highest sound-per-pound, and truly remarkable performance from a hi-fi system.

Welcome to the club! :lol:

Maybe now, you're staring to realise why I'm willing to wait and put up with a lot of pissing about, eh? :eyebrows:

Glad to hear those mouldy old Tannoy's are hitting the spot! ;)

Happy Birthday!!! :birthday: Maybe for your next one I'll be buying you a soldering iron!

ATB...

Marco
14-08-2009, 16:54
Cheers, Mikey - you never know!! :)

One thing's certain for me, though... I'm utterly convinced that the best way to build a hi-fi system is to combine the best of old and new technologies.

Shunning one for the other, IMO (and experience), means that you're likely to miss out on much of the available magic that's possible...

Those with an absolutist mentality (new is always best or old is always best) will never get this, though!

Marco.

Alex_UK
14-08-2009, 17:22
Happy Birthday Marco - have a good evening!

Marco
14-08-2009, 17:31
Cheers, Alex - will do :)

We're off to our favourite wine bar, where the cellar is particularly inspired - almost as much as the food on the menu! :cool:

See here: http://churtons.co.uk/

Next week we're off to the Lake District for a well-earned break:

http://www.lancrigg.co.uk/

Well it's about time Del, being vegan, got a decent meal for a change when we go to stay at a hotel!

Marco.

Mike
14-08-2009, 18:08
Just noticed this bit.


So, with Clarity Cap MR-range polypropylene capacitors, Mundorf air-core foil coil inductors and Duelund Graphite Silver resistors installed on the crossovers, all hard-wired with silver solder, keeping signal paths as short as possible,


ARRRGH!.... no it bloody well isn't! :steam:

Marco
14-08-2009, 18:23
LOL. It's got silver in it, Mikey - it's not solid silver, though :)

You couldn't melt that with a soldering iron!!

Marco.

Mike
14-08-2009, 18:33
Exactly!... it's a misused term. 'Silver Solder' would be something a boiler maker or jeweller might use. The copper (or whatever) needs to be heated to a dull cherry red for the silver solder to melt. Not terribly conducive to the long life of delicate electronic components! :lol:

leo
14-08-2009, 18:55
Didn't know it was your Birthday Marco, anyway Many Happy Returns:birthday: :cool:

anthonyTD
14-08-2009, 19:48
happy birthday from me too mate!!!
A...

Marco
15-08-2009, 09:08
Had a great time yesterday, chaps. I'll post the full Tannoy Red vs. Gold report as soon as poss :)

Marco.

swampy
15-08-2009, 12:30
Hi Barry,

I see what you mean now... No, the original circuit used in the crossovers Chris supplied remains the same

Marco.

Marco...Not quite the same. An extra choke was fitted to sort out the mid range problem if you remember.

swamp

Marco
15-08-2009, 12:40
Hi Dave,

Yep - very true. I forgot about that...

Btw, thanks again for all your effort and expert soldering skills. It was much appreciated. I've never seen such a neat and meticulous worker! :)

How is Dave senior keeping? He looked quite unwell at the end the other day. I guess it could've been the music we were playing! :lol:

Marco.

frogspit
16-08-2009, 01:14
Interesting thread-and coincidental timing to my recent purchase of a pair of 12" Monitor Golds. Mine were housed in the smallest cabinets I've seen containing 12" Tannoys-about 2 cu. ft., w/a single port, and named 'Allegro'. Listened to those for a few weeks to get a handle on the sound, and then built a pair of prototype enclosures of about 130 cu. litres, with two down-firing ports (3" x 6 3/4"). About to order parts for new x-overs, I've decided to build all new in order to preserve the originals, though the original coils have a good reputation. Seems foolish to worry about resale for speakers I may have for years and years, but there ya' go.

I'm still in the very early stages of tuning these-I plan on trying the ports both on the front and the rear, try shortening the port tubes to where the bass starts to become muddy (it's very tight right now, but want to maximize bass output), and perhaps shortening the speakers a few inches to help the aesthetics, even at the risk of lessening bass response.

Last will be rebuilding the cabs with baltic birch ply, and veneering.

The sound? Very nice. Musical, yet with plenty of differentiation between notes. Attack and decay not up with my Magnepans, but the midrange of the Tannoys is close, and of course the 'weight' of the notes is far superior (w/ the Tannoys). Plus, no longer need the subwoofer.

BTW, I had a huge jump in sonics by reducing the toe-in away from the aimed-directly-at-the-ears triangulation. With very little toe, I still get a great soundstage, and much less of a musical jumble at the frequency extremes.

Spectral Morn
16-08-2009, 08:23
Interesting thread-and coincidental timing to my recent purchase of a pair of 12" Monitor Golds. Mine were housed in the smallest cabinets I've seen containing 12" Tannoys-about 2 cu. ft., w/a single port, and named 'Allegro'. Listened to those for a few weeks to get a handle on the sound, and then built a pair of prototype enclosures of about 130 cu. litres, with two down-firing ports (3" x 6 3/4"). About to order parts for new x-overs, I've decided to build all new in order to preserve the originals, though the original coils have a good reputation. Seems foolish to worry about resale for speakers I may have for years and years, but there ya' go.

I'm still in the very early stages of tuning these-I plan on trying the ports both on the front and the rear, try shortening the port tubes to where the bass starts to become muddy (it's very tight right now, but want to maximize bass output), and perhaps shortening the speakers a few inches to help the aesthetics, even at the risk of lessening bass response.

Last will be rebuilding the cabs with baltic birch ply, and veneering.

The sound? Very nice. Musical, yet with plenty of differentiation between notes. Attack and decay not up with my Magnepans, but the midrange of the Tannoys is close, and of course the 'weight' of the notes is far superior (w/ the Tannoys). Plus, no longer need the subwoofer.

BTW, I had a huge jump in sonics by reducing the toe-in away from the aimed-directly-at-the-ears triangulation. With very little toe, I still get a great soundstage, and much less of a musical jumble at the frequency extremes.

I love the pictures of your system, room and furniture and reel to reel machines...........wow. How about putting some nice photos of your set up in the gallery, lots of close ups etc...........please.


Regards D S D L

aquapiranha
16-08-2009, 10:50
Nice frogspit, looks like you have the speakers well sorted. Nice Pass amp too! the pic of your fireplace reminds me of my lounge...

Beechwoods
17-08-2009, 18:17
and reel to reel machines...........wow.

Cor! I've got to agree - nearly missed this, but a tantalising view there of your RT707 (or 701, can't see if it's got autoreverse!) and the Techie RS-1500 :)

Please post up some pics and a bit of a writeup Frogspit. It'd be good to have a proper name... Frogspit is such a mouthful :doh: :lol:

Steve Toy
18-08-2009, 13:09
I had the pleasure of going to Marco's and hearing his system yesterday. The Chinese food I ate was also better than any restaurant I've been too - bursting with natural flavours and texture without being propped up by sugar, salt or MSG. :)

First off, Tannoy speakers seem to divide opinion. We have the Tannoyistas and anti-Tannoy camps forming which is understandable because Tannoy does have a kind of house sound that I've never been particularly fond of myself. However, where Marco's Lockwoods are concerned with their modded crossovers the slightly safe and cuddly Tannoy sound is completely absent.

They sound bugger-all like Tannoys - I hope you are watching Jerry!

Instead they are lively, dynamic, incredibly rhythmic, tuneful and engaging without being in any way relentless. They remain graceful, authoritative, sweet but articulate with one hell of a punch when required. Texture and harmonic info is also clearly abundant across the frequency range. Since childhood my attention span has been rather short but these beasts strike the perfect balance between boring on the one hand and fatiguing on the other; they are neither. I can quite happily sit and listen actively to music through them for hours, the music itself being given the complete freedom to express itself, to move me, make me dewy-eyed, excite me, put a big grin across my face or make the hairs on my arms and back of my neck stand up.

On both vinyl and CD this system is indeed a class act with vinyl having the edge. Avids, Keel-hauled LP12s, SMEs etc may struggle against this Technics for sure although I do believe the relative weaknesses of the digital replay regarding resolution, solidity, depth of field and physical presence of instruments within do not actually lie with the Sony transport or DAC.

I believe that the system as a whole with its incredible resolving power is now showing up the limitations of the Croft preamp when used for line-level duties. As a phono preamp it is truly superb but it lets the digital replay down very very slightly with a resulting loss of solidity and 3D depth/space to instrumentation of which the Sony Transport/DAC combo is extremely capable.

A new pre from the Tube Distinctions stable could prove very intereresting...

DSJR
18-08-2009, 14:58
I think Marco's done all the tube-rolling he can as well...

I have to say that my ancient Croft came to life once the horrid old (replacement) ECC82's it came with were replaced with jan 5841a's. The entire preamp sprung to life (phono too, as this stage feeds the line amps on the way to the outputs) and going back to the AVI was a bit of a disaster - not the AVI's fault, as the Spendors need some "life" and the AVI is neutral to a fault...).

Steve Toy
18-08-2009, 15:42
The valves from the new Blackburn factory are probably better still. The valves aren't the issue though as they are little more than window dressing. What counts is the circuitry of the preamp. The Croft Carisma and its considerable prowess with vinyl compared to the line level performance is perhaps a reflection of its designer's apparent dislike of CD.

Ali Tait
18-08-2009, 17:38
I doubt the new valves will better NOS,but I'd be happy to be proved wrong!

DSJR
18-08-2009, 17:52
The techtube valves can ring in the wrong application, but they found that damping the innards too much took the "magic" away - make of that what you will... it's all explained on their site.

In the Charisma preamp, does the phono stage feed into the line stage as mine does? if so, it may just be the understated (by comparison) nature of a neutral mastering (hopefully) compared to a very dramatic presentation from Marco's race-tuned Technics. Without hearing his deck and CD combo and choice of CD's, it's difficult to summise on here. Again, I understand that the Sony combo isn't standard either - apologies Marco.

frogspit
18-08-2009, 18:59
I love the pictures of your system, room and furniture and reel to reel machines...........wow. How about putting some nice photos of your set up in the gallery, lots of close ups etc...........please.

Thanks, and per your suggestion I'll post some photos.


Nice frogspit, looks like you have the speakers well sorted. Nice Pass amp too! the pic of your fireplace reminds me of my lounge...


appreciate the kind words. Since I don't need the power of the Pass with the Tannoy's efficiency, I'm looking at a tube amp-perhaps a BAT to match the pre.


Cor! I've got to agree - nearly missed this, but a tantalising view there of your RT707 (or 701, can't see if it's got autoreverse!) and the Techie RS-1500

Please post up some pics and a bit of a writeup Frogspit. It'd be good to have a proper name... Frogspit is such a mouthful

You're right, it's a 707-a wonderful deck for playing pre-recorded 7" tapes w/the auto-reverse. Incredible build quality, not the last word in output amps, but I think these are the best deal going on the used market for someone wanting to dip a toe into RTR.

Gotcha' on the name-it's Kelly btw.

Don't want to jack the thread from Marco, but thanks to all.

Marco
19-08-2009, 14:45
Hi Frogs (what's your real first name and where are you from?),

Don't worry about it - I think both topics can run alongside each other quite happily :)

Stevie boy,

Glad you enjoyed the munchies. You can understand now why we rarely use takeaways! ;)

I'm also glad that you liked the Lockwoods...

TBH, I wasn't sure what you'd make of them as Tannoy DCs (even the best ones) present music rather differently from 'normal' box speakers, especially the vast majority of affordable modern designs which are voiced to sound 'pumped-up' and 'impressive', but with longer listening can be rather fatiguing.

The Lockwoods (with Tannoy 15" Monitor Golds and 'pimped' crossovers) are so effortless in their handling of music at any volume (having almost limitless 'headroom') that initially they can sound a little 'unexciting', but as your ears become attuned to their musical presentation, they ply you with their considerable charms and one remains transfixed by their magic, as time slips by listening to album after album after album...

I completely agree with you regarding the Croft. The trouble is, when you get to this level with hi-fi and, like you say, with the amount of resolving power on offer, even the slightest of deficiencies are showcased in all their glory. I would definitely agree that the phono stage on the Croft is superior to the line stage, but in my view that's only because the phono stage, and the modded Techy connected to it, are so stunningly good that my other sources are thus portrayed in comparison as 'second-class citizens'.

The Audicom-modded Sony transport and DAC combo is very good indeed, and one of the best CDPs I've heard, but the Sound Hi-fi-modded Techy is quite simply on another level entirely, and in my opinion that would be the case even if the line stage on the Croft was up to the same standard as the phono stage - no doubt we will test this theory one day :smoking:

I also agree there's a good chance that Anthony's forthcoming new grounded grid preamp will trump the Croft on line-level (in my experience Anthony's valve designs are amongst the finest I've ever heard - no question), and if he can build as a good a phono stage for me as what's in the Croft then I would buy the whole shebang, without hesitation. However, we'll see what happens when his new preamp is released onto the market. I'm sure that you and I will be amongst the first to hear it!

Regarding valves, Ali me old matey, I can tell you quite categorically that the new Tech-Tube E813CC is without question the best ECC83-type valve I have heard and is markedly superior to any NOS valve I've used (and I've been through nearly them all). It's quieter, has less distortion, less 'sonic signature', better resolution, and greater drive and clarity than the superb sounding NOS Tesla E83CC (Telefunken 803S equivalent) it replaced. For around £45 (inc VAT and carriage) it's a no-brainer, especially considering that my Tesla E83CC cost double that! I'll be doing a separate review of this soon.

Right chaps, I'm off to listen to some tunes...

Laters :cool:

Marco.

P.S The little 1970s Sony tuner is rather good for a £45 Ebay purchase, is it not? :eyebrows:

PPS Dave (DSJR) I'll come back to you later, dude.

Mike
19-08-2009, 15:00
the new Tech-Tube E813CC is without question the best ECC-83-type valve I have heard

Did you get some then?... Where from? :)

Marco
19-08-2009, 15:06
Here of course, Mikey:

http://www.techtubevalves.com/index.php

Honestly mate, if your gear uses 'em, just buy 'em - they are quite superb! :)

Marco.

Mike
19-08-2009, 15:06
Never mind, I found em... I just ordered 3 matched ones. :)

Mike
19-08-2009, 15:08
Opps... simultaneous posts!

Marco
19-08-2009, 15:15
Never mind, I found em... I just ordered 3 matched ones. :)

Nice one. You defo won't regret it! I just hope that they start doing 6SN7s, 6SL7s, etc, and power valves such as KT88s... Now *that* would be very exciting indeed.

I don't normally go for modern production valves, as to my ears top-notch NOS are usually significantly better, but the Tech-Tube ones are a different ball-game altogether... The years of R&D they've put into the product has clearly paid off big time!!

Marco.

Mike
19-08-2009, 15:18
Hope so, I'll see how they do in my phono stage.

I'm building up a significant pile of surplus valves, maybe I ought to flog a few! :)

DSJR
19-08-2009, 16:01
I could perhaps do with a quad of ECC83's for the Croft's phono stage, balanced bright and clear, rather than "classic Mullard" warm & sweet if you have any that fit this description. The ones in there seem fine, but apart from the monika, have no maker's ID at all that I can see. Apparently, when and if these valves go down, the bass extension suffers first.

frogspit
19-08-2009, 16:02
Don't worry about it - I think both topics can run alongside each other quite happily

Thanks Marco-much appreciated.

I'm a long way from my speakers being sorted, so this, along with all the other Tannoy sites, is very helpful. Along with modifying my cabinets (and probably building at least one more prototype), my next step is the xovers. I'm very interested in yours, since they are scratch built, and not mods of the existing vintage. Is the design proprietary, or is there some chance of seeing a schematic?

Thanks, and again thanks to all for the kind welcome.

Mike
19-08-2009, 16:28
I could perhaps do with a quad of ECC83's for the Croft's phono stage, balanced bright and clear, rather than "classic Mullard" warm & sweet if you have any that fit this description. The ones in there seem fine, but apart from the monika, have no maker's ID at all that I can see. Apparently, when and if these valves go down, the bass extension suffers first.

THESE (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/5751-ECC83-12AX7-GE-VALVE-TUBE_W0QQitemZ320322591607QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_Co nsumer_VintageAudio_RL?hash=item4a94b6db77&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14) sound very, very good and are a drop-in replacement for ECC83/12AX7 types. There'll be a slight reduction in gain though.

Ali Tait
19-08-2009, 17:52
Sounds good Marco,and much cheaper than the best NOS.Mike,let us know how you get on with yours.

Marco
19-08-2009, 17:57
Hi Dave,


The techtube valves can ring in the wrong application, but they found that damping the innards too much took the "magic" away - make of that what you will... it's all explained on their site.


That's what I found, too. I've never liked those 'cock rings' on valves, or in this case, the enclosed rubber 'condom' (my rather mucky mind must find a joke in there somewhere :eyebrows:).

Dampen ringing it/they may do, but to my ears, it/they also dampen the sound, making for a more rounded-off presentation, which is not to my liking, robbing the sound of the vim and sparkle which makes these valves so attractive to listen to in the first place.

Also, the one and only ECC83 in the Croft is hidden once the lid goes on, so it's a case of 'out of sight, out of mind', enabling one to fret not about any (IMO insignificant) issues of microphony. Besides, even if using the enclosed 'condom' marginally improved the sound, I'd be more worried about the heat generated melting it, as my Croft preamp is usually switched on for most of the day and often left unattended for periods of time.

No, for me, the 'ringing' thing is a non-issue and not something I'd concern myself with unduly, unless perhaps in applications where multiple valves are used. Concentrate instead on the wonderfully musical sound these superb valves produce!! :smoking:


In the Charisma preamp, does the phono stage feed into the line stage as mine does?


Yes.


if so, it may just be the understated (by comparison) nature of a neutral mastering (hopefully) compared to a very dramatic presentation from Marco's race-tuned Technics.


Could be, Dave, but I suspect not. I think Steve makes a very valid point. Knowing Glenn quite well, and his particular hi-fi proclivities (he hates CD with a passion), I'd bet any amount of money that his designs are optimised first and foremost for vinyl replay (using a MM cartridge), and the line stage, although excellent and as good as anything on most preamps, not having quite the same magic... It's an area into which I intend to investigate in due course.


Without hearing his deck and CD combo and choice of CD's, it's difficult to summise on here. Again, I understand that the Sony combo isn't standard either - apologies Marco.

No it isn't. It's been heavily modified by Mark at Audiocom. You'd honestly struggle to better it for less than about £12k, which should give you an indication as to just how good the Techy sounds!! ;)

Music-wise, we listened to all sorts when Steve was round, including Regina Spector, Eagles, Tiesto, Stevie Ray Vaughan, Beth Neilsen-Chapman, Mark Knopfler, Paulo Nutini, Stevie Wonder, Mr Hudson & the Library, Falty DL, PJ Harvey, Madeleine Peyroux, and tons of other stuff :cool:

Marco.

soundfanz
02-09-2009, 11:48
Tannoys annd valves go hand in glove IMO. I will return to valves one day, and have owned Tannoy LRM's and a pair of 15" HPD 385 dual concentrics in huge backloaded horns. Those through a vinyl source via valve amp is pretty special.

Chris

Marco
02-09-2009, 12:01
Indeed they are, Chris. However, there are Tannoys and there are Tannoys, so to speak - just like it is with any other speakers, I suppose. HPDs are excellent, but the true Tannoy magic, in my experience, comes from the vintage DC designs with pepperpot tweeters, such as Monitor Reds and Golds - and the bigger the better!

Outside of Ian Walker's superb 1995 vintage Canterburys (which use the pepperpot 3889 drivers), I've not heard any modern Tannoys which cut it in the same way. Cabinet design and crossover quality are also hugely influential in terms of one hearing the magic in all its considerable glory :)

Marco.

DSJR
02-09-2009, 13:18
Thanks for comments above Mike & Marco - much good to ponder and I have saved the page with those valves on Mike, as I think the techtube ones are going to really break the bank at present..

I have an idea that spending too much on my existing preamp is a wasted spend, as I'm unlikely to get this back and it really wouldn't surprise me if the R version of his new model is better anyway..