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symon
12-05-2009, 22:55
As I delve deeper into the world of hi-fi, and the world of hi-fi as found here on this forum, my interest in valve amps is growing. But, I have a small problem. I have never seen a real live valve amp of any description, let alone heard one. So, I have absolutely no knowledge of these beasties. And these particular type of beasties are not particularly cheap. So, should I ever be lucky enough to dip my toes in the water and get a valve amp thingy, it would be useful to know what to look for and what I'm letting myself in for. It's also worth saying here that I'm not very good at DIY with little or no experience (put it this way, soldering is an unknown art to me!)

So, what do I need to know about valve technology? What should I look for when maybe thinking about buying something? What do all the technical terms mean? Are these beasties special things that need lots of special attention? I have no knowledge and would really like to know more.

I have seen two valve amps for sale here - perhaps they could be used as examples to explain and discuss this stuff.

And, maybe this could become part of Beechy's library.

So, good folk of AOS, please enlighten me. :smoking:

Ta :)

DSJR
13-05-2009, 07:00
They GLOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ;)

Valve amps are a bit like steam driven engines. They're totally outdated in so many ways, yet fill their owner's hearts with so much joy (if they're properly designed).

There's also something about the ways they have with a musical signal too, whether digitally or analogue sourced. Of course an amp shouldn't distort the signal it processes, but all do to a greater or lesser extent and the trick is to make any distortion as benegn as possible. Well designed valve gear does this beautifully, adding if at all, a touch of "charm" to the music rather than an "edge," so beloved of Naim owners, for example.

Try to get a listen to a Croft and/or Puresound amp system for a start and if finances are very tight, look out for a sweet toned Rogers Cadet III. I bought mine for £15 and sold it on for £25 back in 1976. They currently fetch up to £200, but I'd rather have one of these and have it serviced properly than a Nait 2 I think..... Great fun and a good introduction if you get a good one.

alb
13-05-2009, 07:01
The best way by far to discover tube amps, is to find somebody local who has one, and is prepared to let you listen to it,
I imagine there are a few on this forum within reach of Bristol.
Maybe they will volunteer their services.:)

The Grand Wazoo
13-05-2009, 07:52
A good and still reasonably cheap way of doing this is to track down a Leak Stereo 20. This has been the way into valves for countless people.

They'll give you most of what even the very best valve amps can provide.

They're plentiful.

The valves are cheap.

The spares are cheap.

There's plenty of info & knowledge about them out there.

Many have been restored to a good standard.

They'll stand enormous upgrades elsewhere in your system.

They're more 'modern sounding' than you'd think - I'd take one over a set of Quads on sound quality.

There's a piece about them here...........http://www.hi-fiworld.co.uk/hfw/oldeworldehtml/leakstereo20.html


Another cheaper way of getting in is with a Rogers integrated.
http://images.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=http://www.vintage-audio.com.ua/pict_mod/cat_items/571_pict_big_rogers_cadetIII_b.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.vintage-audio.com.ua/en/cat/206/571.html&usg=__KWjvDlHeCS8RikJUReIKeaQVMT0=&h=550&w=550&sz=66&hl=en&start=1&um=1&tbnid=5C8-F2UX1IpqpM:&tbnh=133&tbnw=133&prev=/images%3Fq%3Drogers%2Bcadet%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN%26u m%3D1

Don't be put off by the price of this one!

You'll always get pretty much what you paid for these if you resell them should you decide valves are not the way to go. And don't forget, Ebay's not the only game in town!

Haselsh1
13-05-2009, 08:05
I could only ever recommend on previous experience and that experience would say never buy cheap Chinese rubbish. It is exactly what it says, cheap, Chinese and very rubbish.

The Grand Wazoo
13-05-2009, 09:07
Sorry, I didn't spot the previous mention of the Rogers Cadet. Other options for a cheap taste of valves might be an old valve receiver - Dave at Green Home Electronics has just sold two Sansui models (one of those was £125).

You could try http://www.hifiworks.co.uk/index.htm. He's in Cornwall, not too far from Bristol. I don't know anything about him, I've only ever looked at his website, but at the moment it's showing some good cheap stuff like a Scott Stereomaster, A Chapman pre/power and a restored pair of Heathkit MA12 monoblocks, none of which, I'd turn my nose up at.

hifi_dave
13-05-2009, 09:42
As with solid state amps, there are good and bad valve (tube) amps and you must listen in your system before purchase, as it might not suit you or your system.:doh:

Some vintage tube amps are great but the prices are going through the roof as more and more people cotton on to how good they can be. Bear in mind that an old tube amp might need some re-furb to make it work or even make it safe.

As to safe - certain 'cheap' amps you see on E-Bay may be dangerous, so buy from a trusted source if this is your choice.

David

Darrenw
15-05-2009, 21:17
stereo 20 from leak is a no brainer - its the valve equivalent of daddy paying for a good hooker to lose yer cherry to

gonna get myself another one at some point - just need to watch that yer speakers are sensitive enough for valves - powerful valve amps that sound good are hard to find

rgdsd
Darren

symon
15-05-2009, 21:38
stereo 20 from leak is a no brainer - its the valve equivalent of daddy paying for a good hooker to lose yer cherry to

gonna get myself another one at some point - just need to watch that yer speakers are sensitive enough for valves - powerful valve amps that sound good are hard to find

rgdsd
Darren


Lots of good stuff here, which I will come back to.

How do I know if my speakers are sensitive enough? What information do I need to know?

Mike Reed
16-05-2009, 10:16
- powerful valve amps that sound good are hard to find

rgdsd
Darren

You wouldn't care to elaborate on that, would you? I've not heard that the sonic virtues of valves are largely dependant on low output.

I do realise that most (all?) powerful valve amps. are push-pull, and maybe you don't consider these to to have the same musical prowess as SETs, etc.

Could you name some good, powerful amps, and why you think they are?

I for one would like to know the ratio of speaker efficiency to amp. output (disregarding room size and personal volume preferences). I've never seen such a chart, so maybe there are just too many variables.

DSJR
16-05-2009, 10:34
Interesting you lot rave about the Stereo 20. I've heard a few and found them too bright and dry sounding for my tastes.. The Leak TL12's and Quads are more my thing, colouration or not, they both always bring a huge silly grin on my face. Mind you, these had been "Crofted" to perfection......

One amp I could have kicked myself for ignoring back in the mid seventies was the Lowther power amp(s). Beautifully executed and around £320 then (a Yamaha CA1000 integrated was £200 or thereabouts and a Technics SL1800 [1200 equivalent then]around £140 I think), they were still available in 1975, although the lady on the phone was surprised at the interest, as they hadn't sold many (if any) in the preceeding years. It apparently commands huge premiums now and is a genuine top end classic I understand... I could have got one at trade price for around £225, but bought a 1967 vintage Radford STA25 with pre and tuner for £120 instead.

The Grand Wazoo
16-05-2009, 12:14
I don't think I was raving about the Stereo 20, just observing that the performance available for the price makes it a good way into valves.

Ali Tait
16-05-2009, 21:31
I've heard a well fettled Stereo 20 and it's a good amp! And agreed,an excellent intro to the valve world.The output transformers in particular are very good.But possibly for less money (used) would be a WAD KEL84,which to my ears is superior in every way and is a real giant-killer of an amp.One very musical amp.

DSJR
16-05-2009, 22:03
You can get 'em ready made too for not much more..

Not sure how much they sell for, but the Croft series V power amp and one of the Micro series pres would make a great used buy from the early nineties. Cheap valves, easy service and a great phono stage really endeared me to this setup..

shane
18-05-2009, 06:42
Strikes me that a visit to the WD site would be in order here.

http://wduk.worldomain.net/

I know at least one member of their forum who lives in Bristol and would be more than happy to demonstrate what valves can achieve.

gary
18-05-2009, 10:56
As I found out when Marco was good enough to bring his last valve amp up for me to have a listen too they can be very fussy with speakers but when you consider I was comparing his amp with over 15k worth of naim gear the result was a real eye opener, and from what I have read posted on here he is now using an even better amp. almost convinced me to give up the naim gear and go for valves myself.

(He...He... I said almost Marco) maybe one day.

symon
18-05-2009, 12:08
Ooh! Lots of questions!

What does push-pull mean?
What does SET mean?

Why are nearly all the models on the excellent Cornwall site ugly or rusty?!

DIY is an interesting option. But, I am too scared of killing myself. My DIY abilities are less than minimal and the idea of playing around with potentially high voltage equipment is very scary.

Why are a lot of valve amps mono?

One thought I did have: maybe I should look at a pre-amp to use with my Quad 405. This would help me do comparisons with what I am used to (Quad 33 and 405) and decide if valve really is what I am interested in.

I will have to look a bit more closely at the WD forum to see if I can find a friendly local.

How do I work out if my speakers are compatible with valve equipment - or, if valve equipment is compatible with my speakers?

Thanks for all the help and replies so far.

anthonyTD
18-05-2009, 16:10
hi all,
i have explained this before, but here goes again, one of the most important things to look at when choosing a valve amp and speaker combination is impedance versus frequency, ie, valve amps like to see a pretty constant impedance over the entire audio frequency spectrum, thats why its so important to look at the graphs provided by the good speaker manufacturers, this will tell you a lot about wether the speakers are indeed a good match with your amp.
hope this helps.
regards,anthony,TD...

symon
18-05-2009, 16:48
Anthony, thanks.

I will do a search for your posts on this. I have to be honest and say that your response is helpful, even if I don't know what it means yet. :confused::lol:

Ali Tait
18-05-2009, 21:27
Hi Peter,
Some of the terms can be confusing,so to answer some of your queries-
S.E. stands for Single-Ended.This means there is one main output valve per channel i.e. one for the left and one for the right.The valve in each channel amplifies the whole musical signal on it's own.SET means Single-Ended Triode,such as a 300b,45,px4 or px25.Triodes are the most simple and linear amplifying devices ever made,which may explain why many cannot live without a SET amp once they have heard one,a good one at least!

P.P. stands for Push-Pull.This means that there are two valves in each channel,each valve in that channel amplifying half the musical signal,one doing the positive part of the signal,and the other doing the negative.Imagine a sine wave as the musical signal going through the amp,and a line drawn along the middle of it.One valve will do above the line, the other below the line.

Each topology has it's merits and diadvantages,but very generally,SE amps can sound tonally very pure with a wonderful and engaging midrange and top end,but can be a little soft in the bass.PP brings more power to the party,and a tighter grip in the bass (Sometimes!).They can however,to afficionados of SE amps,sound muddled and confused by comparison.You need to listen to each type to find which you prefer.Both have their proponents.

I'm not familiar with this "Cornwall" site,but I'd guess it shows a lot of vintage stuff.It will be rusty because it's all very old! This is also the reason a lot of the vintage stuff is mono,as they were made before stereo was invented,so if you went down this route,you would need to buy two to get stereo sound.

Hope this helps.Any more questions,don't hesitate to ask. :)

The Grand Wazoo
18-05-2009, 21:32
............and they're as ugly as hell because they were never meant to be seen! They got tucked away in cupboards & nice walnut veneered cabinets.

symon
18-05-2009, 22:18
Marvellous. That helps a lot. Thanks.

The Cornwall site is the link given above by Chris on page 1. Lots of valve stuff in various states of (dis)repair. It has given me a good idea of prices and condition to go with those prices.

Thanks, I feel enlightened. I think I need to find some real l ive valve amps and hear what they can do.

Steve Toy
19-05-2009, 00:35
Anthony's Push-Pull designs (and/or modifications) give incredible musical insight. My own amp seems to do midband delicacy and rhythmic acuity in one package. With the right speakers it also gives you articulate, tuneful and rhythmic bass that you can feel both in its transient attack and its texture, i.e. that rippling effect of bass notes - that's what they do in real life and within the recording, so lets hear it through the speakers!

In addition to being able to capture the musical essence of a given recording without missing a beat or percussive rap from any instrument whilst also giving you all the pitch and harmonic info present, from a decent valve amp combination (pre/power in my case), you will also get instrumental separation in 3D space in a way very few solid state amps can even hint at.

Giant Haystacks
19-05-2009, 01:46
hi i will ask one of our members jack williams to give a talk on amplification he is building 30 years i think this would be interesting for everyone ,if that is ok with the moderators

Ali Tait
19-05-2009, 05:38
Hee hee wondered if it would be you or Marco who would reply to my post Steve!:)

Spectral Morn
19-05-2009, 08:55
hi i will ask one of our members jack williams to give a talk on amplification he is building 30 years i think this would be interesting for everyone ,if that is ok with the moderators

Thats fine and very welcome, but it should be a general discussion/education and not focused on Ecofan Sound for whom Jack Williams works. Posts that have a commercial focus should be kept (mostly) to the commercial section of the forum...Trade Inspirations.


Regards D S D L

Steve Toy
19-05-2009, 11:15
Thanks Ali, muddled and confused eh? Not even slightly!

If someone wants to wax lyrical about Ecofan on this this thread I have no issue with that provided it is in proper context. AOS is a little different in that we place fewer restrictions on commercial activity compared to other sites. This freer approach has been abused only once so far....

Ali Tait
19-05-2009, 13:19
It's all relative really,and down to personal preference.I listen to SE mostly,but I have two SE amps,and also two PP amps.All are very good amps,but ultimately I prefer SE.That's just me though.

Ali Tait
19-05-2009, 13:25
Saying that,I'm quite excited about a new amp Nick is building to try on my statics.This will be an 813 PP direct-coupled to the statics.It'll be unveiled at the forthcoming Eggborough meet next month.If it exhibits a bit of potential,I may ask him to build an all-out version with the best parts I can get hold of.Watch this space!

Stratmangler
19-05-2009, 14:11
Saying that,I'm quite excited about a new amp Nick is building to try on my statics.This will be an 813 PP direct-coupled to the statics.It'll be unveiled at the forthcoming Eggborough meet next month.If it exhibits a bit of potential,I may ask him to build an all-out version with the best parts I can get hold of.Watch this space!

You talking OTL there Ali ?

Sounds very interesting.

Chris:)

Ali Tait
19-05-2009, 14:45
Hi çhris,
Well kind of! The static's panels will be driven directly from the anodes of the 813's via a high-voltage cap,so yes,an OTL in the sense that there are no output transformers! The difference with this should be that there will be no shortage of drive.Should do wonders for the bass response if nothing else! 813 should be good for about 1.5 kV ish peak to peak from what Nick has said,which should be plenty for the ESL III's.I'm looking forward to this as I remember Paul Barker saying this type of arrangement was the best sound he'd ever heard.I hope so!

Giant Haystacks
20-05-2009, 01:55
I think a otl quad electrostat would be the ultimate sound that is what i am aiming for minus 2 transformers and using probably 6a3 ,
Jack Williams is mr ecofan i was suggesting a educational thing for people who may not know to help, but if wax lyrically means blowing we dont want that so best leave it for now

Steve Toy
20-05-2009, 02:10
Waxing lyrical does not have to mean blowing. Unles you really do want to blow...
Share away regardless. It is definitely allowed.

Giant Haystacks
21-05-2009, 00:25
this is very interesting about the otl electrostat ,a few years ago Ear Yoshino done a set and two people told me this was the finest they had ever heard, I think only one set was made and the record producer Tony Faulkner owns.
Several other leathel examples were also made.
An american electrostat company Bainbridge also made a high impedence otl electrostat amp for there speaker most of the examples tryed out use some of the bigger 845 and similar valve ,
I myself have never heard a satisfying ordinary type otl but some say the the top croft otl was really good.

Giant Haystacks
21-05-2009, 00:58
on the subject of push pull and single ended
the amps from the late 50s and 60s which are push pull can still sound tereffic i have a braun electrostatic amplifier with el84s similar to the leak mono tl12 and stereo 20 other good amps were pye mozart which used el34 a mono amp also
,in later years audio innovations would have got us all interested again and you also have to give credit to the hifi world kits for bringing value ,
there are loads of satisfying valve amplifiers which will work with a lot of speakers ,
but if you are looking for the finest valve sound you can not be a prisoner to the loudspeaker you have to do it the other way around as the triode valves suffer when paralled for more power , also if you have a really well engineered single ended valve amplifier you will have not the biggest bass but i think the best bass. these are my thoughts on things as others have opinions also and i am bad typer also

Ali Tait
21-05-2009, 07:25
Well if you need more SE power then transmitter valves are the way to go.I run my stats with 845 SE,which at 20 or so watts doesn't do a bad job,but I mostly use a triode-connected 813 SE at around 35 ish I guess.I love the sound of the trioded 813 and statics,so this direct-coupled amp should I hope be something really special.

Ian Walker
21-05-2009, 07:37
"but if you are looking for the finest valve sound you can not be a prisoner to the loudspeaker"

Never a truer word been said hey Anthony:)

(I tried building a valve system around Naim DBLs:doh:)

Ian......slouching off.........

Marco
21-05-2009, 09:57
Ian, it's all a learning curve, mate! :lolsign:

For me a *good* valve amp (and I mean GOOD, as there's a fair bit of shit out there that I wouldn't entertain giving the 'side' a bad name) sounds much more like real music than any solid-state amp I've heard so far. That last rider is very important, as there could be some sand amps out there which are as good as the Copper valve amp I use, or even better. Experience suggests not, but I'm not so closed minded as to rule out the possibility.

In my experience, a good (completely hard-wired) valve amp sounds more like real music because designs facilitate a simpler signal path, i.e. there are less components in the circuit to influence or 'colour' the signal and add a 'signature' - and if the circuit is 'right' in the first place, then that is always a good thing. I'm not saying that even the best valve amps are completely neutral sounding, of course not, but in my experience (to date), the musical presentation of a valve amp when done well is more faithful to the sound of real music than what is capable from its solid-state counterpart. As ever, though, I'm up for being proven wrong!

Simplicity of the signal path is one of the reasons why SET amps can (and often do) sound sweeter and 'purer' than push-pull designs, although as ever in hi-fi, that's not the end of the story! There are many SET amps I've heard which I admire but none so far that I could live with, particularly considering the hugely varied styles of music I like to listen to, and sometimes at considerable volume! The K.I.S.S (keep it simple, stupid) principle is though without doubt the best approach when designing equipment of any nature, provided that it is accompanied with the use of the highest quality components most suited for a specific application, within the correct implementation of a particular circuit. This is usually a recipe for success. For me, good KT88 P/P designs do it best.

Often some expensive, supposedly 'high-end' valve amps are the victim of their overly complicated circuits (too much stuff in the way of the signal path) and the use of unnecessarily expensive 'bespoke' components which can when used wrongly do more harm than good. Unfortunately, in order to justify their (sometimes) ludicrously high price tags to appeal to brand-conscious 'badge snobs', some 'high-end' valve amps must be seen to be packed full of the most expensive components available and housed in the most elaborate cases, even if in many instances they're simply 'over the top' and unnecessary; the results in the process often being little more than statements of 'audiophile jewellery'.

Building a good valve amp is about getting the circuit right, keeping it as simple as possible, and using the best components for their correct application - *and* (and this is a big one) using the biggest (in terms of specification), highest quality mains and output transformers you can find to fit the case intended for use.

Quite simply, in terms of influencing the signal and reducing noise, transformers can never be too big! The power supply is the single most important area of ANY piece of equipment, and no more so than in a valve amp. It is my opinion that the criticism often directed at valve amps being 'soft' in the bass or not giving music 'pace, rhythm and timing (PRAT)', compared to the best solid-state amps, is because the transformers used aren't up to the job and are simply not good enough. It may not be that simple in some cases (over-complicated circuits are also a factor), but it's almost certainly at the root cause of the problem. OTL designs seek to solve the problem by not using any transformers, but they too impose their own compromises.

I am completely convinced that anyone who says that valve amps miss so much musical information or don't 'boogie', or any other nonsense like that I've heard from certain people, say so because they simply haven't heard a really good one! You know who you are ;)

The solid-state amps that I've heard *so far* and used in the 25+ years I've been into high-end hi-fi, at prices ranging from a few hundred pounds to many thousands of pounds, when compared to the TD push-pull Copper amp I'm currently using, sound 'grey', flat and lifeless in comparison, with a 'grain' and 'edge' superimposed onto the signal that is IMO alien to how real music sounds. There is a signature present in the reproduction of all types of music through solid-state amps which to my ears sounds quite false and unnatural, regardless of how 'musically adept' some can be in particular areas.

The problem for me with even the best solid-state amps is their lack of dynamic range and their rather 'flat' presentation of recorded music as a result. It is because of the superior dynamic range on offer from good valve amps that music is 'unrestricted' and allowed to flow naturally, 'breathe' freely, and have the colour and expressiveness which separates the 'real' thing from a cardboard cut-out of such.

*That*, in a nutshell, is what I think GOOD valve amps do over their solid-state counterparts :)

Marco.

symon
21-05-2009, 10:49
It has been really interesting following the discussion here.

It seems to me that DIY valve equipment could be the best way to go, if you have the skills. Sadly, I don't and would have grave concerns about my health and safety if I tried going down that route.

Another pleasing element to come out is that valve equipment doesn't necessarily have to be hugely expensive. Nearly all of it is beyond my meagre budget at the moment. And, to be honest, some of the prices that I have seen are quite scary (and, to be honest, if had the money I would buy a guitar rather than a valve amp!). Marco's point is welcome, that high price does not necessarily mean hi-fi! (sorry)

One thing I was delighted to see was the new pre-amp from Croft, the Micro Basic. I think I would be tempted to try this out as a starter when I have the funds available. Does anyone any views on this?

In the end, I just want to test the waters and see if I do like valve equipment in my system. What I don't want to do is spend a large amount of money on what is, essentially, a taster.

Marco
21-05-2009, 11:18
Hi Peter,

Glad you're finding the thread useful so far. We try to give discussions here as much 'substance' as possible :)

It's always difficult successfully conveying one's experience with valve amplifier equipment so that a complete novice appreciates the 'message' intended, if you see my meaning.

I could waffle on endlessly about the various hi-fi aspects of valve and solid-state amps, but in the end it would be largely meaningless to you. Therefore what I tried to do instead, was portray a 'story' based on my experience to date, where hopefully something was written that you could relate to.

With regard to possible purchases, you're on the right track with the new Croft range of amplifiers, as Glenn's designs are the epitome of what I have described as a 'GOOD' valve amp, and once you listen to them you may not feel that you ever have to upgrade - yes they are that good! The Puresound A30 integrated is another such device of similar quality.

Another viable option is to buy a built kit from World Designs (check out their website on-line and their forum for info), as these are also very good, and with the potential for endless further tweaking should you at some point be brave enough to wield a soldering iron ;)

There are also the various low-priced Chinese options available for importing, but considering how good, risk-free, and competitively priced the above options are I would tend to steer clear of these from both a safety and sonic point of view, and go for something designed and built in the UK, unless your equipment selection process is of a particularly speculative bent.

Marco.

Ali Tait
21-05-2009, 12:11
Marco what you say about tranformers is largely true,but ultimately,the best transformer is NO transformer! A trannie is like anything else in the signal path,it will colour the music in some way,the same as say a coupling capacitor does,no matter how much you spend on it.The problem with OTL's is their very limited ability to produce current severely limits the speakers they will work well with.A way round this would be to use an electrostatic speaker,which requires a high voltage,but very little current,so sounds ideal until you realise that most OTL's don't output anywhere near enough voltage or wattage to drive an insensitive Static! The solution? Use an output valve that can swing enough voltage to drive a static easily such as a 211,845, or in the forthcoming amp Nick is building to drive my statics,the 813.Direct coupling these to a static shoould in theory produce a fantastic sound (no output trannie in the way!) I hope so anyway.We shall see in two or three weeks time.I really think this could be something special though.

Marco
21-05-2009, 12:14
Ali, I completely agree. Hi-fi is all about choosing your compromises.

However, your assumption is based on the premise that you're able to factor-out the particular limitions inherent in electrostatic designs.

Much as I admire many aspects of the breed, I would unfortunately have to say 'no' to the above :)

Marco.

Ali Tait
21-05-2009, 12:20
Statics do have their inherent problems,but I can't see how it's possible for ANY cone loudspeaker to be less coloured than a properly implemented static,by the very nature of their respective designs,and my listening experience over the years has borne this out.Not to say you won't prefer the way a cone speaker does things though!

symon
21-05-2009, 12:22
Hi Peter,

With regard to possible purchases, you're on the right track with the new Croft range of amplifiers, as Glenn's designs are the epitome of what I have described as a 'GOOD' valve amp, and once you listen to them you may not feel that you ever have to upgrade - yes they are that good! The Puresound A30 integrated is another such device of similar quality.

Good, that's comforting to know my instincts are not leading me in the wrong direction. I'd be quite happy to find something that I don't need to upgrade.:)


Another viable option is to buy a built kit from World Designs (check out their website on-line and their forum for info), as these are also very good, and with the potential for endless further tweaking should you at some point be brave enough to wield a soldering iron ;).

You know, the idea of DIY is appealing to me. But, the actual doing it can be a problem. My knowledge and interest is much lower than I thought it was. But, maybe one day I'll put the time and effort in to make it rewarding. The WD stuff looks interesting, but the completed kits put them slightly out of my comfortable price range (which makes it sound like I have a figure in my head. I don't, just a sense of squeamishness which only raises itself when presented with a pound sign and some numbers!). I think if I did start looking seriously at building my own kit, then World Designs would probably be where I go to first.


There are also the various low-priced Chinese options available for importing, but considering how good, risk-free, and competitively priced the above options are I would tend to steer clear of these from both a safety and sonic point of view, and go for something designed and built in the UK, unless your equipment selection process is of a particularly speculative bent.

Marco.

Hmm, the Chinese stuff comes with a loud enough health warning from other people to put me off trying them.
And, no, my selection process is not particularly speculative. Random maybe, but not speculative. My choices are limited to my budget, and to what falls into my lap when looking for something. Something I keep meaning to do in a nother thread is explain my perspective from a beginner's point of view. In all honesty I don't know what sound I am looking for. So, with that in mind, being able to try something like a decent valve pre-amp will help me define what it is I like and don't like. All part of the fun, I guess. :smoking:

Ali Tait
21-05-2009, 12:28
Peter,
Another option is to look out for WD amps secondhand.They do come up and you can get a real bargain.The KEL84 is a real giant-slayer of an amp and will often embarrass commercial offerings at several thousand pounds.I kid you not.

Marco
21-05-2009, 12:31
I can't see how it's possible for ANY cone loudspeaker to be less coloured than a properly implemented static,by the very nature of their respective designs


Well, Ali, eliminating coloration isn't the only consideration. Come and hear my Tannoys after I get them and give me your honest opinion. I keep saying 'come and hear my system' (not least to listen to your SET amp and compare it with my Copper amp), but you never do anything about it................... I think you may need another 'frame of reference' with regard to P/Ps ;)

Btw, I've heard Nick's 211 on the end of Ian Walker's Canterburys and that was very 'interesting'. I shall say no more!

The biggest negative for me with statics is their lack of bass, scale, and loudness capability, compared to the likes of what I'll be listening to at the weekend. You know that I like to have a 'live gig' effect in my room! If I had statics, I'd more than likely keep blowing them up!! :lol:

Marco.

symon
21-05-2009, 12:36
Peter,
Another option is to look out for WD amps secondhand.They do come up and you can get a real bargain.The KEL84 is a real giant-slayer of an amp and will often embarrass commercial offerings at several thousand pounds.I kid you not.

Yes, I had thought about that. I did see one on Ebay recently which was within reach of a potential budget. The thing that worried me was that it is home built. Is it safe to assume that if someone is selling one thay have built it properly? Or, are the kits relatively foolproof (like a good Delia Smith recipe ;) )?

Ali Tait
21-05-2009, 12:53
Peter,
Generally they will be fine.I've had three WAD kits(still have two) and they have given no problems whatsoever.Even if you did encounter any bother,there are plenty here and on the WD forum who would be happy to help sort it out.Whereabouts in the world are you?

Marco,I have heard Tannoys before and yes,they are very nice.It's just that having had the statics so long,I could never go back to any kind of box speaker because all I can hear is the box singing along.OB's I could happily live with though.
I will get across sometime,but I've been very busy plus my partner is recovering from cancer,so I've not had time for hifi stuff recently.I will get across sometime though.

symon
21-05-2009, 12:58
Ali,

thanks, it's good to know they can be trusted in general.

I'm in Bristol.

And, I'm sorry to hear about your partner. I hope I'm right in thinking your comments were positive and full recovery is under way?

Marco
21-05-2009, 13:06
Ali,


Marco,I have heard Tannoys before and yes,they are very nice.It's just that having had the statics so long,I could never go back to any kind of box speaker because all I can hear is the box singing along.OB's I could happily live with though.


I know where you're coming from, but 'never say never' is a good saying when it comes to hi-fi, IMO. It pays to retain an open mind. I mean, I've not completely given up on SET amps yet!! ;)


I will get across sometime,but I've been very busy plus my partner is recovering from cancer,so I've not had time for hifi stuff recently.I will get across sometime though.


No worries, matey - we'll defo do something. I'm very sorry to hear about your partner. Please send her my regards and wish her a full and speedy recovery.

Marco.

Ali Tait
21-05-2009, 13:30
Thanks Peter/Will do Marco.Yes,it was caught very early so all looking good.

Ali Tait
21-05-2009, 13:57
Ali,



I know where you're coming from, but 'never say never' is a good saying when it comes to hi-fi, IMO. It pays to retain an open mind. I mean, I've not completely given up on SET amps yet!! ;)



No worries, matey - we'll defo do something. I'm very sorry to hear about your partner. Please send her my regards and wish her a full and speedy recovery.

Marco.

Open mind? Well considering I'm using full-range Fostex in large boxes in my second system up here in Scotland,I don't think you can accuse me of being close-minded! Good as they are I still prefer the statics though.

Marco
21-05-2009, 14:28
Yes,it was caught very early so all looking good.


Nice one, mate :)


It's just that having had the statics so long,I could never go back to any kind of box speaker...


Granted on the Fostex's, but forgive me, the above suggests the merest smidgeny hinty-poo of 'closed-mindedness', no? ;)

And I seem to recall you saying a similar thing about P/P amps, too...

My advice would be to reserve judgement until after you've visited. You never know, you might end up preferring a different set of compromises :cool:

Marco.

Ali Tait
21-05-2009, 19:39
Well I do own two PP amps! I've heard some very fine PP amps,built with very little compromise,certainly with parts you would see in very few,if any,commercial offerings.Same with SE.Both can be excellent.Could I live with a PP amp? probably.It's just I ultimately prefer SE,in the same way you ultimately prefer PP.One I am looking forward to in particular at the forthcoming Eggborough meet is a PP 211 amp.Should be rather nice!

Mike
21-05-2009, 19:43
Think I'll have to pop along to Eggy....

Ali Tait
21-05-2009, 20:23
Yes,saw your post Mike.Be good to meet up,especially since you missed the last one at the last minute!

Marco
21-05-2009, 22:46
It's just I ultimately prefer SE,in the same way you ultimately prefer PP.


Yep, Ali, that's certainly the state of play at the moment, but who knows what the future holds? ;)

Eggy? I'll probably pass this time in case I upset some of the 'old boys network' again! :eyebrows:

Marco.

SPS
22-05-2009, 10:46
Yep, Ali, that's certainly the state of play at the moment, but who knows what the future holds? ;)

Eggy? I'll probably pass this time in case I upset some of the 'old boys network' again! :eyebrows:

Marco.

no chance marco.. we are all thicker skinned than you would think

there will be some good kit there...

I'm sure none of us would mind if you came..
i would like to hear your m3d'd deck and your new tannoys.. if you could get them there.

cheers steve

Marco
22-05-2009, 11:12
Hi Steve,

That's good to know! :)

When is it anyway, and are you going to advertise it here?

Marco.

aquapiranha
22-05-2009, 11:39
i wonder if I will be able to get my OB's sorted for this? also, let me know if you still have a use for the Goodmans drivers Steve.

:)

Giant Haystacks
25-05-2009, 23:29
I was wondering there was something discussed about Eggborough is this a hifi show on ,
there was an enthusiast show on the week after the Bristol show maybe it is similar.
someone was mentioning about a push pull 211 , i have listened extensively to Cary monoblocks similar to this , the 211 is one of the handful of valves that were actually a audio valve so the 211 can not be ignored as a possible holy grail,
the 845 i just heard the Cary cad 805 at shows and Unison research monoblocks, and Audion 845 monoblocks ,
i have a friend who had 2 amplifiers which came from a circus with huge transmitter type valves i think 4212 was the model of valve im just not sure on that.
,im sure the 813 valve is physically large ,
there is an interesting triode that i heard in a french Siemel amplifier which would be worth further investigation it is called a 6528a and made by Cetron Tungsol and Raytheon it is a similar family to the 6c33 and 6as7g and has the same base as a kt88 or a 6l6 it is capable of 16 to 18 watts from a single valve

Stratmangler
25-05-2009, 23:44
I was wondering there was something discussed about Eggborough is this a hifi show on....

It's a DIY enthusiasts event.
That said, it's a very good event, and more than an eye (and ear) opener.

I've heard one of the speaker builds that will be shown/demonstrated, and the speakers in question put many commercial efforts to shame for attention to build detail. That, and they sound bloody fantastic. These are the Big Daddy Fonkens shown here http://www.audio-talk.co.uk/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1397

Well worth the effort to attend the 'fest.

Chris:smoking:

PS The folks there are very friendly too.

Ali Tait
26-05-2009, 07:10
Yes,come along and watch my statics being vapourised in the attempt to dtive them with a direct-coupled 813 PP amp!

Stratmangler
26-05-2009, 20:09
Yes,come along and watch my statics being vapourised in the attempt to dtive them with a direct-coupled 813 PP amp!

Wahey - entertainment sideshow too !

Chris:lolsign:

Ali Tait
26-05-2009, 21:21
NOT the ones I'm selling I hasten to add!

Stratmangler
26-05-2009, 21:31
How many pairs of stats have you got Ali ?

Which ones are ear-marked for the fry up ?

Do we all need to wear protective clothing to witness said oncoming fry up ?

Does Eggborough Power Station Social Club carry CO2 extinguishers ?

This is beginning to sound like a meeting of PA (Pyromaniacs Anonymous).:eyebrows:

Chris:)

Ali Tait
26-05-2009, 22:36
I'm coming into possession of a pair of Acorns,and these will be used for the fry-up! I also have a pair of ESL III's.

Giant Haystacks
27-05-2009, 00:24
what date is the eggborough show on , and a technical one from leeds bradford airport how far and difficult
anyway more waffling about valves some of you smart boys out there should research the 6528-a this valve is not a sought after one yet and will provide double figure wattage similar to 6c33 ,6as7g,and the western electric 421a
i am not good at typing or getting up photos so try to take a look

SteveTheShadow
27-05-2009, 10:59
what date is the eggborough show on , and a technical one from leeds bradford airport how far and difficult
anyway more waffling about valves some of you smart boys out there should research the 6528-a this valve is not a sought after one yet and will provide double figure wattage similar to 6c33 ,6as7g,and the western electric 421a
i am not good at typing or getting up photos so try to take a look


The Eggborough Show is on Sat 13th June.

Re the 6528A
I haven't tried it as yet, but I have tried its close relative the 6336A. Not as much gain but it does sound very nice indeed as an SE amp.

Steve

symon
02-06-2009, 11:56
This is interesting: http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ROGERS-CADET-3-111-VALVE-AMPLIFIER-WORKING-ORDER_W0QQitemZ260421176759QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_A udioTVElectronics_HomeAudioHiFi_Amplifiers?hash=it em3ca24fcdb7&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A2109%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A12%7C39%3A1%7C 240%3A1318%7C301%3A1%7C293%3A2%7C294%3A50

In fact so interesting, I'm also tempted to be very very naughty. We shall see.

But, I'm confused. How do you connect speakers to it?

Mike
02-06-2009, 12:22
They connect here:

symon
02-06-2009, 12:25
Hmm - do you just wrap the speaker wire around the screws?

I would also be interested in views on whether this would be a good buy for a person who has never owned any valve equipment before. I know these have been recommended above, but further views would be appreciated, especially on this specific amp.

Spectral Morn
02-06-2009, 13:53
Hmm - do you just wrap the speaker wire around the screws?


Yes or you could fit some small spade connectors to the bare wire....being careful for them not to touch the case of the amplifier.


I would also be interested in views on whether this would be a good buy for a person who has never owned any valve equipment before. I know these have been recommended above, but further views would be appreciated, especially on this specific amp.

The problem with vintage amplifiers is that parts may need replacing in them...resistors and capacitors can and do go off over time and in the worst cases can cause serious faults to occur, damage to speakers or even fires can happen. I have not heard the Cadet so I can't really comment on how good or bad they are but the main weakness in vintage kit is the pre-amplifier sections (this being an integrated it has one built in) they are usually coloured and lack transparency...not an issue if you are happy with a warm and cuddly sound. The other problem I can foresee with the Cadet is its low power. This means it will most likely struggle to drive a lot of modern speakers to loud volumes, I would imagine.

What speakers do you have, what size of room is it you have and what kind of music do you like ?

Vintage power amplifiers such as those from Leak would be better, having an excellent level of sound quality for their age. However again the power may also be an issue. You can match a modern pre-amplifier to a Leak power amp and get much better sound quality for your money.

The problem with this is that the price of vintage kit keeps going up in many cases IMHO the prices being asked are ridiculous (the Cadet being a good example at £50 fair enough but not £185) for the level of sound quality.

I am sorry to rain on your parade a bit but there are issues.

symon
02-06-2009, 14:00
Neil, no need to apologise. You have answered my question in much better ways than I asked it.
Your opinion of the value is very useful.

I will come back again with a more detailed response to the questions you have asked.

Spectral Morn
02-06-2009, 14:21
Neil, no need to apologise. You have answered my question in much better ways than I asked it.
Your opinion of the value is very useful.

I will come back again with a more detailed response to the questions you have asked.

No problem Symon

I was about to type some more but just wanted to see again what every one else has been saying.

The main problem with valve amplifiers is the power VS cost thing. It is cheaper to get more power with solid state (than it is with valves)and that does not mean poor quality sound. However I am a firm advocate of valve amplifiers if they are matched correctly to the system/room and music they will be used with.

Valve amplification has a quality to it that most (there are some that come close) solid state amplification can't match. There is a naturalness to it, reality of tone and a real three dimensional sound scape. Solid state IMHO just doesn't quite get there in all these areas. However if the speakers you use need power(as my Anthony Gallo's do need lots of power. I needed at least 75 watts, and for me this meant an expensive valve amplifier), you will need to look at a valve amplifier design that uses EL34/Kt88/kt66/5881/6550 (types of valves). These tend to be the valves that 25 to 50 watt valve amplifiers use. I like the sound of the first 4 but not so much the 6550.

Best value for money.... I would go for the Pure Sound A30 (Marco mentioned this amp earlier), Icon Audio stereo 40 or one of the Prima Luna amplifiers. These outside of the cheap and not so cheerful Chinese brigade (as many are a pile of crap as has also been stated) are the main contenders, for in and around £1000 ish (unless you can pick up an ex-demo or S/H one). For my money I think the A30 is the best but it only has 3 inputs and no tape output. You can improve it by changing to better 6SN7 valves, than the ones it come with. Having played about quite a bit with 6SN7's the ones I would recommend would more than likely be Tung-sol new reissues (however I need to know the answers to my questions to be sure of this).

Its to easy to present you with too much info and confuse the issue.

Some more questions.

How much of a budget do you have ?

Are you happy to tweak/modify or get some one to do this for you?

Do you want a warranty and piece of mind ?


Regards D S D L

Steve Toy
02-06-2009, 15:55
Best value for money.... I would go for the Pure Sound A30

The Puresound A30 can also be modified by our resident valve expert Anthony who can turn it into an AOS-specced beast of an amp. This is what I use.

DSJR
02-06-2009, 16:15
The Cadet III sells for silly money today, although I bought mine from the original owner in 1975 for £15, which would equate to around £100 now I suspect. Neil's right though, another 35 years under its belt and gawd knows how many bodgers later and it could be severely worn out and in need of fettling.

What ever's wrong with now vintage Crofty stuff? A Series V with Micro could be had for around £500 I think and it'll be new enough to enjoy now and not so expensive that Glenn himself couldn't work some further magic on it for not an unreasonable sum.

Regarding spade terminals - I think that Maplin do some small ones and things come up on ebay too for not much. Much better than wrapping wire round the screws...

Ali Tait
02-06-2009, 17:18
While those amps may well be good VFM,IMHO the best value would be a (second-hand) WAD KEL84.You can pick one up for 200-250 or so.A very sweet and musical amp,giving 15 watts per channel from push-pull EL84's.Well known as a bit of a giant-killer.Don't think you can beat it as an introduction to valve amps,and indeed many never move on from it.

Spectral Morn
02-06-2009, 17:30
The Cadet III sells for silly money today, although I bought mine from the original owner in 1975 for £15, which would equate to around £100 now I suspect. Neil's right though, another 35 years under its belt and gawd knows how many bodgers later and it could be severely worn out and in need of fettling.

More than likely either way. Not everything vintage is good.


What ever's wrong with now vintage Crofty stuff? A Series V with Micro could be had for around £500 I think and it'll be new enough to enjoy now and not so expensive that Glenn himself couldn't work some further magic on it for not an unreasonable sum.

Nothing....but the early Croft stuff while having good sonics,was a bit flaky in the build quality stakes (not now I might add). Also my knowledge of Glenn's more recent work is not very good. I prefer to stick with talking about kit I know and have heard.

I think the biggest problem with Symon's question, is he has so far not given us a lot of info to go on...hence my questions. Also he may not want to embark on the soldering Iron road or get something that has to be TLC'd all the time to keep it going. Symon may just be an ordinary music lover who wants a safe high quality entry into valves. The type of product that will give him years of enjoyment, or launch him into a longterm passion for building/modifying kit....at the moment...I don't know....over to you Symon.

We need more information :)


Regards D S D L

Spectral Morn
02-06-2009, 17:33
While those amps may well be good VFM,IMHO the best value would be a (second-hand) WAD KEL84.You can pick one up for 200-250 or so.A very sweet and musical amp,giving 15 watts per channel from push-pull EL84's.Well known as a bit of a giant-killer.Don't think you can beat it as an introduction to valve amps,and indeed many never move on from it.

Unfortunately not knowing what Symons speakers are this amp may not work with his speakers....despite it being good with others and having a great reputation(I have never heard or seen one in the flesh)


Regards D S D L

Ali Tait
02-06-2009, 17:48
True,as you say,more info would be better,but I'd say the KEL will work with almost all mainstream speakers that don't have a silly load.It will even drive my ESL III's!

symon
02-06-2009, 17:52
hehehe - alright, Neil, answers on their way. Just need a quick cigarette and to remind myself exactly what speakers I have!

Spectral Morn
02-06-2009, 18:03
hehehe - alright, Neil, answers on their way. Just need a quick cigarette and to remind myself exactly what speakers I have!

No problem Symon :lol::lol::lol: and the rest of your kit too please.


Regards D S D L

symon
02-06-2009, 18:32
Alright, here goes:

My main System:
Pioneer PD S703
Technics SL DD33
Quad 33
Quad 405
Acoustice Energy AE109s

Also have a TASCAM DA 20 and DA30 mkII, a Revox B215, and a MD player of some sort (can't remember and it's too hot to get up and look!) These aren't connected to anything at the moment but could be.

Planned changes/additions - a DAC (probably a Beresford DAC) and change the Technics for a Lenco GL75 with stock arm with a Shure M75 ED type 2 thingy.

I really like the Pioneer CDP, the Technics is ok but I'm looking forward to hearing the Lenco when it is working properly.

I like what I'm hearing, but there's something not quite right. I don't what it is and I don't what I'm looking for. This is all new to me so I have no idea what 'better' sounds like.

As for what I listen to. Well,
folk - Martin Carthy and any permutations he has been in; Bert Jansch; Imagined Village
Rock - Led Zeppelin; Reef; Rage Against the Machine; Queens of the Stone Age; Pink Floyd; Genesis
A bit of jazz
Singer/songwriter stuff - Kelly Joe Phelps; Jane Taylor
some female vocalists - currently digging Melody Gardot.
So classics and new stuff, folk to Rock to Jazz to electronic stuff (DJ Shadow, Roni Size)
And I have a fair bit of classical on vinyl which I don't listen to much at the moment.
Oh, and blues!

My budget is modest. The most expensive bit of kit I have at the moment is the Quad combo which cost me about £100. Everything else has been free or cheap. The attraction of the Cadet intially was the price. I'll come back to this.

Do I want to fettle? No. I have limited (ie non-existent) DIY skills, definitely don't know how to use a soldering iron. So, easy to use, built like a tank (like the Revox or Tascams). So, yes, a safe high quality entry that will give me pleasure for a long time with minimal fuss.

So, I've never heard valve kit but have a suspicion that it might be what I am looking for. Cheap would be good, but I realise this might be an impossibility. So, at a push I suppose I would eventually be looking at up to £500 maybe, but that really is pushing it. I'm trying not to be in a rush. I suspect the answer lies in the Croft budget pre-amp - putting that through the 405.

Have I missed anything?

symon
02-06-2009, 18:34
An extra bit - I mostly listen to CD at the moment. I'm saving my vinyl for the Lenco. So, I intend to listen to CDs and records (and maybe even tapes!!!)

Spectral Morn
02-06-2009, 19:12
Hi Symon

The AE109's are not easy to drive IMHO. So the Cadet would be a waste of money. AE speakers of that vintage are fairly power hungry IMHE....not as much as a pair of AE1's. The problem is control of the bass.

You need an amplifier with more power perhaps than the ones I have mentioned...at the very least you will need to find away of getting a listen in your own room.

The Pre-amplifier route might get you part of the way but I am not sure about the Quad amplifier....in my mind they are soft warm and not the most transparent thing in town but are musical and reliable. However in my experience it is the mix of valves in the pre and power the whole package that has the magic, combinations just don't cut it in my opinion. I have tried the valve pre solid state power amplifier road in the form of the Pathos Classic 1, and while it is very good it just lacked the full valve sound. Solid state pre with valve power is a better compromise but still IMHO does not go the whole way. I was playing around with this idea before my Music reference valve power amp went wrong....so I can't give you any more than it was promising. I will revisit this when it is fixed. However in my heart I know the outcome will probably be that I will prefer the full sound of valves in the pre and power.

You present a difficult challenge....I suspect that the speakers may be the source of your dissatisfaction. I would explore that possibility as well.

What is it about your current set up that you don't like ?


Regards D S D L

The Grand Wazoo
02-06-2009, 19:52
The AE109's are not easy to drive IMHO. So the Cadet would be a waste of money. AE speakers of that vintage are fairly power hungry IMHE....not as much as a pair of AE1's. The problem is control of the bass.

A quick spin on Gurgle tells me the AE's are 90dB sensitivity & a 6 ohm load - I'd have thought a Cadet III could cope with that, Neil - as long as the room's not to big.

I agree the price is too high, though.

Spectral Morn
02-06-2009, 20:43
A quick spin on Gurgle tells me the AE's are 90dB sensitivity & a 6 ohm load - I'd have thought a Cadet III could cope with that, Neil - as long as the room's not to big.

I agree the price is too high, though.

Despite the spec I felt that a pair we had in the shop S/H once were a bit hard to control properly.....certainly though we are talking about a push pull amp of at least 30 watts plus with very stiff power supply and excellent current output.

Symon will have to try some amps at home. Its hard Chris to recommend remotely I always prefer (sorry I forgot I am out of the trade now) to get the product into the end users home system for a try. Theories great but practical use is what counts.


Regards D S D L

Ali Tait
02-06-2009, 21:01
I'm pretty sure someone brought a pair of these to one of out DIY meets along with a clone of an Avantic Beam Echo,which drove them to very high SPL's in a very large room.I remember a few peeps commenting on how big a sound from a smallish speaker.I think something like a KEL would be fine with these IMO.

Ali Tait
02-06-2009, 21:02
Peter,just a thought,if you post on the WD forum,there will be someone nearby who may let you have a listen to a KEL.

The Grand Wazoo
02-06-2009, 21:04
Neil, of course, I completely agree, but having no experience of them, all I have to go on is the spec.

I'd be willing to bet they'd sound good bi-wired, with the Quad on the bass/mid & valves on the tweeters!!

Spectral Morn
02-06-2009, 21:07
Hi Ali

Was it these http://www.acoustic-energy.co.uk/Editor/Images/photo_ae109.jpg ?


Regards D S D L

Ali Tait
02-06-2009, 21:09
Pretty sure it was,though in rosewood.They seemed to go damn loud for the size of them!

Spectral Morn
02-06-2009, 21:17
Neil, of course, I completely agree, but having no experience of them, all I have to go on is the spec.

I'd be willing to bet they'd sound good bi-wired, with the Quad on the bass/mid & valves on the tweeters!!


Hi Chris

I must admit that the configuration you suggest I have never heard work properly. Two amps the same no problem but an SS amp on the bass and valve on the mid/treble nope. Once tried two Ecofan sound (valve) amplifiers set up this way similar spec just slightly different power and power valves. The speakers were easy to drive X overless Ref 3a Decapo's it was crap. You could hear the mismatch right away. The sound was like a Venetian blind no coherence at all.

It is true that companies like T&A have speakers with active bits and a valve amplifier driving the tweeter but they were designed to work this way. The chances of matching the sonic and power characteristics of a SS amp and a valve amplifier would be very hard...not impossible but you would I suspect have to try lots and lots of products to find a match.

Had a customer with two audio Innovations second audio amps one using 6B4G and the other 6A3s in a bi-amplification set up it didn't work...the 6A3 amp had to be modified to match the spec of the 6B4g amp this still was not right. Bi-amplifing must IMHO be done with identical amplifiers.


Regards D S D L

Spectral Morn
02-06-2009, 21:20
Pretty sure it was,though in rosewood.They seemed to go damn loud for the size of them!

Yes they came in Rosewood, very nice finish. I may be having a senior moment here....you have me doubting myself now....ummmm:doh::(

Regardless Symon must try any potential amplifiers in his own set up. Yes if some one on the WAD forum would let him try the amp at home that would be ideal.


Regards D S D L

The Grand Wazoo
02-06-2009, 21:43
I must admit that the configuration you suggest I have never heard work properly. Two amps the same no problem but an SS amp on the bass and valve on the mid/treble nope.

The chances of matching the sonic and power characteristics of a SS amp and a valve amplifier would be very hard...not impossible but you would I suspect have to try lots and lots of products to find a match.

Bi-amplifing must IMHO be done with identical amplifiers.


I must've been lucky in my gear then!
For years, I used various combinations of Levinson/Radford/Cary amps into my SD OBS's & it never sounded as you describe.

The best incarnation was with the 50 watt ML11 driving both bass & tweeters with the STA15 on the mid. There are things that set-up did that I've never been able to replicate.

One day I'll try what would be the ultimate incarnation possible with the gear I now have. ML9 - bass / STA 15 - Mid / ML11 - treble. The Radford needs a little work, though.

Matching the gain without losing out was tricky, but possible.

The only time I've heard anyone else do it was with Impulse H2's - I can't remember the amps, but it gave a stunning sound. The treble was really sweet & drum kit dynamics were incredible (but those speakers did pretty much chuck it at you, didn't they?)

Otherwise, I bow to your wider experience!!

The Grand Wazoo
02-06-2009, 21:46
Pretty sure it was,though in rosewood.They seemed to go damn loud for the size of them!

I think the kosher Beam Echos were 20 wpc

Spectral Morn
02-06-2009, 21:52
I must've been lucky in my gear then!
For years, I used various combinations of Levinson/Radford/Cary amps into my SD OBS's & it never sounded as you describe.

The best incarnation was with the 50 watt ML11 driving both bass & tweeters with the STA15 on the mid. There are things that set-up did that I've never been able to replicate.

One day I'll try what would be the ultimate incarnation possible with the gear I now have. ML9 - bass / STA 15 - Mid / ML11 - treble. The Radford needs a little work, though.

Matching the gain without losing out was tricky, but possible.

The only time I've heard anyone else do it was with Impulse H2's - I can't remember the amps, but it gave a stunning sound. The treble was really sweet & drum kit dynamics were incredible (but those speakers did pretty much chuck it at you, didn't they?)

Otherwise, I bow to your wider experience!!

Ummmm...interesting. When you do it we want....nay demand a write up;):) as soon as your fingers can do the typing. Technical details too please. I told you would be doing more writing for SOG :lol: Take it as a commissioned review for when you feel you can do it....when Mr Radford is fixed.


Regards D S D L

The Grand Wazoo
02-06-2009, 22:26
Take it as a commissioned review for when you feel you can do it....when Mr Radford is fixed.


You're a hard taskmaster, you!

I'd actually planned to, but it might be quite some time before I can.

Spectral Morn
02-06-2009, 22:31
You're a hard taskmaster, you!

I'd actually planned to, but it might be quite some time before I can.

It will be worth waiting for Chris.


Regards D S D L

Giant Haystacks
04-06-2009, 01:12
yes i was also present with dalek supreme when this experiment took place .,with the reference 3a de capo and the ecofan pre +ecofan triode 45+triode 6a3 the type 45 valve is the darling of big part of the usa amps and especially the diy people and is an actual audio output valve i think there are about 6 or 8 that i can think of so all the correct boxes were ticked .
it was as dalek described the results
i was planning on putting another step down transformer in my quad electrostat and and be able to bi amp them using the 6a3 and type 45,that was the plan anyway at the time
this 6a3 amp is the best match i have found so far for the quad electrostat but at the moment i have only a small room so i am seriously considering the dulcet the tiny brother of the de capo ,the de capo which i have heard is the only speaker where you could hear very clearly the diffarent sound of diffarent makes of output valves sylvania rca tungsol western electric ken rad ect. i was not able to do this with klipsch horn or the quad 57 the sound is excellent but you can hear small changes but not as instant as the de capo

Giant Haystacks
04-06-2009, 01:56
you cant go by efficency of speaker my amp which is 5 watts was killed stone dead by diapason adamtes i hope im right on the spelling ,and the spica tc50 was wonderful match and the first was 93db and the spica 84db
it is true with vintage amps you do need to know a good engineer but you will get that , it would be much better than horific chinese with loads of chrome and wood ,and i dont think hifi world should describe there amps at shows as giant killers if it is giant killer it should work at small volume it is good sales marketing , if you do go down this route dont get caught up in change this change that you need this it never ends , i done this all i had many speaker kits and a hifi world 5881 kit this is my opinion

Ali Tait
04-06-2009, 11:37
A lot of the Chinese is pants,but not all.Some is actually pretty good IMHO.

tfarney
12-06-2009, 12:39
I think this may be the most honest evaluation of valves, and Naim, I've ever read on a board:


There's also something about the ways they have with a musical signal too, whether digitally or analogue sourced. Of course an amp shouldn't distort the signal it processes, but all do to a greater or lesser extent and the trick is to make any distortion as benegn as possible. Well designed valve gear does this beautifully, adding if at all, a touch of "charm" to the music rather than an "edge," so beloved of Naim owners, for example.

I'd only add that the more a valve amp distorts to a "lesser extent," the more it will sound like good solid state. Given proper design and sufficient headroom, the differences are not dramatic. Given neither of the above, charm is preferable to edge every time.

Tim

lonergan2468
13-06-2009, 14:23
I am pushing my martin Logans QuestZ with two Opera Consonance M800 SE Mono Amplifiers. The amps can be switched from Triode 35 W to ultralinear 75W. I dont know what this means as I really dont know much about valve tech. The amps are UK models not the cheap import. The triode mode sounds pretty good, and can push the MLs very well.

DSJR
13-06-2009, 18:10
There are experts here who will correct me if I'm wrong, but SET mode involves quite a lot of distortion, but I suspect this distortion is not smeared over time as it can be with other methods. Worst case "time-smearing" being with many Japanese "high spec/high global feedback" amps of the mid seventies, which couldn't reproduce fine details and reverb properly even when trying..(OK, there were many other reasons too, but I bet that lots of global feedback judiciously applied to bring the THD right down contributed loads to the lack of sound quality).

Marco
13-06-2009, 22:04
I think this may be the most honest evaluation of valves, and Naim, I've ever read on a board:


There's also something about the ways they have with a musical signal too, whether digitally or analogue sourced. Of course an amp shouldn't distort the signal it processes, but all do to a greater or lesser extent and the trick is to make any distortion as benegn as possible. Well designed valve gear does this beautifully, adding if at all, a touch of "charm" to the music rather than an "edge," so beloved of Naim owners, for example.



I'd only add that the more a valve amp distorts to a "lesser extent," the more it will sound like good solid state. Given proper design and sufficient headroom, the differences are not dramatic. Given neither of the above, charm is preferable to edge every time.


Hi Tim,

Long time no hear! Welcome back :)

I'm afraid you won't be surprised to hear that I most vehemently disagree with both what you've written and the quote above (which bizarrely I can't seem to find...).

Anyway, I don't doubt that what you're saying applies in some cases, where valve amps are badly designed, but it most definitely isn't the case with high quality examples of the breed which have been designed properly by a competent engineer. That is a fact, and I'm sorry, I don't give a monkey's what science, measurements, or your limited experience (with valves) says to the contrary.

Quite simply, my 30W Class A Copper valve amp handles music more faithfully than ANY solid-state amp I've heard or owned - and trust me, the latter (owned & heard) goes into many hundreds!

You'll never see me refer to the sound of my Copper amp as 'warm', 'romantic', 'cosy', 'charming', or any of the other stereotypical traits held of valve equipment in the mindsets of the uninitiated, because it just doesn’t sound like that whatsoever – in fact, the total and complete opposite!! I’m sure that other owners here of high quality valve gear will share my sentiments.

If you think that all valve amps are about is imbuing the music signal with "charm" then, quite simply, you’ve never heard a really good valve amp… And that, my friend, is it in a nutshell.

Marco.

lonergan2468
13-06-2009, 22:05
There are experts here who will correct me if I'm wrong, but SET mode involves quite a lot of distortion, but I suspect this distortion is not smeared over time as it can be with other methods. Worst case "time-smearing" being with many Japanese "high spec/high global feedback" amps of the mid seventies, which couldn't reproduce fine details and reverb properly even when trying..(OK, there were many other reasons too, but I bet that lots of global feedback judiciously applied to bring the THD right down contributed loads to the lack of sound quality).

I looked at a review of the M800 on soundsatge, however on close inspection these were not SE refrence which mine are. Sorry I am totally ignorant when it comes to tec talk. The Denon 160 on the Roksan Xerxes sounds good.

chris@panteg
14-06-2009, 08:40
Have any of you guy's have used/owned or tried the Border patrol PSU ' its a valve rectified choke input filter 'using a GZ37 .

It can be configured for use with many old and new amps even stereo 20 's

If i ever was in a position to buy another valve amp of any kind ' for me it would have to have this or something very similar as having owned a pair i know the difference it makes.

Every Audio innovations amp made had cheap ' very poor ' solid state rectifiers , they were often criticized as having a loose and flabby bass , these rectifiers just could not cope ' i had 3 powerful and persuasive dems of the Border Patrol upgrade by Gary Dews and Kevin Scott .

There are expensive but maybe someone with the skills could knock something similar up as inside it looks very simple ' i believe the quality of the transformers is critical though.

Ali Tait
14-06-2009, 11:11
Nice to see you back Tim!

DSJR
14-06-2009, 11:30
Hi Tim,

Long time no hear! Welcome back :)

I'm afraid you won't be surprised to hear that I most vehemently disagree with both what you've written and the quote above (which bizarrely I can't seem to find...).

Anyway, I don't doubt that what you're saying applies in some cases, where valve amps are badly designed, but it most definitely isn't the case with high quality examples of the breed which have been designed properly by a competent engineer. That is a fact, and I'm sorry, I don't give a monkey's what science, measurements, or your limited experience (with valves) says to the contrary.

Quite simply, my 30W Class A Copper valve amp handles music more faithfully than ANY solid-state amp I've heard or owned - and trust me, the latter (owned & heard) goes into many hundreds!

You'll never see me refer to the sound of my Copper amp as 'warm', 'romantic', 'cosy', 'charming', or any of the other stereotypical traits held of valve equipment in the mindsets of the uninitiated, because it just doesn’t sound like that whatsoever – in fact, the total and complete opposite!! I’m sure that other owners here of high quality valve gear will share my sentiments.

If you think that all valve amps are about is imbuing the music signal with "charm" then, quite simply, you’ve never heard a really good valve amp… And that, my friend, is it in a nutshell.

Marco.

A question for you Marco (since I made the quote in Tim's post above...). What didn't you like about the solid state amps you owned? Were they harsh, hard, dry and "flat perspectives?" Naim of the CB and Olive periods certainly do this to me (and I liked them at the time).

You see, if the solid state amps are reproducing the source more correctly (and superior measurements back this up), then the lovely valve amps you own and enjoy could possibly be perceived as having a touch of valve "charm" :)


I'm not spoiling for a row over this. My AVI preamp is definitely a more "correct" product as the output is an exact facsimile of the input signal fed it. I find I WANT a bit more "personality" both in operation (those damned twin volume controls :)) and in the sound, especially as my LP source isn't of the finest quality. With the 5841a's in the line stage, the Croft now has the honesty I felt lacking before and its added "charm" in both operation and sound is most agreeable to me. When I had the AVI/ATC 100A's combo, my HiFi hobby evaporated for a few years because I wasn't ever thinking about the *gear* at all. I find that with my current system, I love the music coming out, yet am having more fun with the messing about than I've had in ages - and this on a practically zero budget :(


You see where I'm coming from?

Giant Haystacks
14-06-2009, 12:36
i have heard quite a few good non valve amps ,47 labs,lavardin,linslay hood,pass labs ,yba,
the 47 labs the french-japanese reviewer jean hiraga, he backed this company big time , he was possibly the first man also to start shouting about the triode valves ,so not a very long time ago maybe 25 years at most,all these valves were anchient history when hifi first appeared and that equiptment was very good eg. japan is full of quad ,leak,ratford,
but the senario of valve v s state well i would say first and foremost on the valve amp defence the engineer is the most vital thing any of the best of these people dont know they are special they are just doing what is easy to them so valves are useless without these people they are part of the valve era and most are well into there 60s now so i think that is most important factor in the comparison

Marco
14-06-2009, 13:18
Hi Dave,

Yes I see exactly where you're coming from :)

However, there are a number of areas where I would disagree with you. It requires quite a long reply, and at the moment I'm rather busy, so I'll come back to you later or, more likely, tomorrow :smoking:

One thing I would say is that not everything in this argument that's relevant to the accurate reproduction of recorded music, as far as the human ear is concerned, is measurable! You can only measure known electrical parameters via apparatus designed for a specific purpose. Trouble is, audio is not an exact science.

So forgive me if I put such comments as "superior measurements" and "exact facsimile of the input signal", into my file marked: 'not entirely relevant to what really matters' ;)

Marco.

Joe
14-06-2009, 13:28
Whenever I listen to my ss system, which lives upstairs, i think 'this is great, why don't I just use this all the time?'

Then I listen to the valve system (if/when it's working!) and am overwhelmed by its superiority. There's just 'more' of everything; more detail, more 'oomph', more space, more music. (Mind you, the valve system cost about three times the ss system, so it's a bit of an apples/pears comparison).

PS And I positively hate tweakery!

DSJR
14-06-2009, 15:45
Marco, I think the basic objectivity was sorted decades ago, but measurement techniques weren't fully evolved at the time.

I don't know why I'm taking a "measurement/ss" stance as I love what good valve gear does. I reckon we in the UK can thank the likes of Dennis Morecroft for helping to bring star-earthing back to ss designs in the late seventies. Better ss devices meant less needed to get the power up per channel (all those old US and Jap amps with *banks* of output trannies warming up at different rates...). On the other hand, good transformer and valve manufacturers went to the wall as valve amps disappeared from the scene. Thankfully for us, Tim de P returned to the UK and helped to bring good valve designs back to the UK Top End market, starting with an exceptional model using cheap TV ouput valves!!!!!. Tim has claimed that he can design circuits using both types of device with identical results and I'm sure he's right.

The thing is, like vinyl vs CD reproduction, both types of amp go wrong in opposite ways, bad valves often sounding thick, bloated and squidgey, where bad ss goes harsh and nasty, especially at high volumes. Advancing age and hearing abuse in younger years makes middle aged ears more over-sensitive to hardness in the upper-mid/lower-top and this is certainly the case with me. Amps with odd-order distortion combined with crossover artifacts (you know the ones ;)) that once sounded "exciting" just sound harsh and nasty now, especially when they "take off" when singers sing out - ughhh!

Perhaps I should end before I drop in the huge hole I've dug for myself. I can't wait to get the Quad II's going again (awaiting a GEC KT66), as despite the obvious objective colourations, they make music so lovely to listen to. The Crowns I'm currently using actually sound really good (even better as they were given to me :)) and don't seem to get in the way. I can't ask for any more than that at present.

Marco
14-06-2009, 16:11
Marco, I think the basic objectivity was sorted decades ago, but measurement techniques weren't fully evolved at the time.


The point being Dave, that in my opinion, not everything that *needs* to be measured in relation to hi-fi (valves vs. ss or whatever) CAN currently be measured! ;)

That's why basing your argument on the specs/science/measurements angle is a little flaky. There's stuff going on in numerous areas of audio that oscilloscopes and spectrum analysers just don't 'get', but yet our ears can quite clearly and genuinely hear...

I still remember you telling me that the M3D was as dull as dishwater and had no top end, and yet is this what you hear despite what the measured frequency response says? Your (old) avatar suggests not :eyebrows:

Think about this in relation to valves, i.e. you can't tell the whole story from measurements alone. More later - you raise some good points.

Marco.

DSJR
14-06-2009, 19:16
The point being Dave, that in my opinion, not everything that *needs* to be measured in relation to hi-fi (valves vs. ss or whatever) CAN currently be measured! ;)

...you can't tell the whole story from measurements alone. More later - you raise some good points.

Marco.

I'm not an engineer (as you've all no doubt discovered) but I do believe that there isn't much (if anything) that hasn't been "sorted" by now. A little bit of knowledge can be dangerous, as the things one doesn't understand becomes like magic or "fairy-dust" when there's a perfectly valid reason behind them.

Good engineers have to work with inevitable compromises I think. The best ones are able to juggle the compromises around or minimise them altogether and I still maintain that many of these compromises have become less as more sophisticated components have become available, such as new capacitors, 1% resistors when 10% was commonplace back then and higher output transistors. Certainly with speakers, cheap, small speakers sound better today that would have been possible forty years ago (yes, I do know Goodmans Maxims from this era). The fact that very few people seem to want big, easy-breathing speakers in their UK homes these days is very sad though.....

Marco
14-06-2009, 19:26
I'm not an engineer (as you've all no doubt discovered) but I do believe that there isn't much (if anything) that hasn't been "sorted" by now.


I'm afraid I don't, Dave - far from it. I've genuinely heard too many things in hi-fi that science can't explain to come to any other conclusion.

Can the sonic effect of Mana equipment supports (or Quadraspire, Townshend and others) be measured and proof found for why exactly they work? No, (at least not that I'm aware). Can the benefits of what they do be easily heard? Most definitely yes!

Ditto with good quality mains leads, as opposed to cheapo 'kettle leads', and a few other things too I could mention. Why does the last 2m of mains cable powering hi-fi equipment make such a difference to its performance? Can measurements explain that fully?

Again, I don't use expensive Transparent mains leads for the good of my health. I'd rather just use some bog standard solid-core mains cable, or a cheap Maplins jobby, and save lots of money, but unfortunately they sound worse.

Why do two identical types of valves from the same manufacturer measure exactly the same (using a valve tester) but still sound different? I've experienced that one, too, on more than a few occasions!

No, as I said before, audio is not an exact science and as such can't solely be judged on scientific or engineering terms. One has to trust one's ears as the final arbiter. Having the confidence, not to mention experience and skill to do that though, is another matter altogether... Some people need things to be 'black & white', rather than shades of grey. Their mindset is incompatible with any other way of thinking.

Marco.

DSJR
14-06-2009, 19:39
Quick reply...

I don't think anyone has measured what happens to equipment placed on Mana, whether it be speakers, amps or LP12's for that matter.

Cheapo kettle leads are often made with low gauge and low grade wire. better standard cables are available if you strike lucky and as for fancy ones like the Naim one, I honestly suspect that 80 - 90% of the "difference" is the 38A rated connecting wire. If the plugs and sockets make all the difference to a Naim wire, why not hard-wire all their products and remove much of the "problem" at source?

Regarding the mains wires to the system making an effect, I think that was covered by some wide-band frequency analysis some years ago. Many of the fancy filtering wires (such as the Transparent ones I think) will filter much of the RF mush coming in. Much domestic audio has inappropriate isolation from such things (amps run almost at the point of ringing/instability, that kind of thing), so some of these things are magnified.

One thing that interested me though. Sowter transformers (made apparently not far from me) have an OFC option for 20% more. They don't claim any severe measurable difference, despite lots of wire being in the transformers, but clients of there's have preferred these products wired with the stuff and Sowter have seen fit to offer the option without judgement, which I think is a very good move IMO.

Marco
14-06-2009, 19:55
Dave,


Cheapo kettle leads are often made with low gauge and low grade wire. better standard cables are available if you strike lucky and as for fancy ones like the Naim one, I honestly suspect that 80 - 90% of the "difference" is the 38A rated connecting wire. If the plugs and sockets make all the difference to a Naim wire, why not hard-wire all their products and remove much of the "problem" at source?

Regarding the mains wires to the system making an effect, I think that was covered by some wide-band frequency analysis some years ago. Many of the fancy filtering wires (such as the Transparent ones I think) will filter much of the RF mush coming in. Much domestic audio has inappropriate isolation from such things (amps run almost at the point of ringing/instability, that kind of thing), so some of these things are magnified.


I don't disagree, but try putting the above to the belligerent pseudo-scientist/objectivist types who populate forums and watch them pooh-pooh it because of the lack of 'evidence'. Look what your pal Ashley, for example, has to say about cables, and valves, and vinyl, and... ermm....! ;)


I don't think anyone has measured what happens to equipment placed on Mana, whether it be speakers, amps or LP12's for that matter.


What exactly would you be measuring and what with? It's far too complicated a subject for any layman to embark on.

Marco.

DSJR
14-06-2009, 20:02
Ash may be a pal, but I don't agree with everything he says... To be fair to him though, he's demo'd me many of the things he's said on the forums and been shown to be basically right, so I have to give him credit for that.. For example, he recommended low capacitance cables as short as possible to connect his AVI source bits to his amps and when I complied with this (50 Ohm and 75 Ohm low loss coax from RS Components) and used decent plugs it was fine. Didn't stop me liking a titanium (or summat) interconnect from Sonic-Link which was silly money then..

As for vinyl, you of all people should know how easy it is to screw up a record player. Only a very few dedicated souls would bother to set everything up as well as possible - many would give up at the first hurdle and I think the B&W 801's Ash used at the time would have made mincemeat of any tracing distortion or surface noise - that little tweeter they had wasn't at all gracious as I remember.....

Marco
14-06-2009, 20:14
For example, he recommended low capacitance cables as short as possible to connect his AVI source bits to his amps and when I complied with this (50 Ohm and 75 Ohm low loss coax from RS Components) and used decent plugs it was fine.


He's absolutely right, as far as that's concerned - it's exactly what the Mark Grant cables I use are!

*However*, you may have noticed that I used mains leads, as opposed to signal leads, in my argument. There was a reason for that ;)


As for vinyl, you of all people should know how easy it is to screw up a record player. Only a very few dedicated souls would bother to set everything up as well as possible - many would give up at the first hurdle


How true is that!!! In my opinion only a small percentage of people who own a decent record player know how to set it up *properly*, and crucially, know what arm and cartridge to partner it with, synergistically. Most are just pissing in the wind, including the detractors; the majority of whom haven't heard a properly set-up T/T to form a valid opinion.

Marco.

Spectral Morn
14-06-2009, 20:30
:goodthread:....very :interesting: More please :popcorn::popcorn:.



Regards D S D L

Marco
14-06-2009, 20:43
You do realise, dahling, that keeping you entertained is my No1 priority in life :eyebrows:

Marco.

Steve Toy
15-06-2009, 01:40
I'd only add that the more a valve amp distorts to a "lesser extent," the more it will sound like good solid state. Given proper design and sufficient headroom, the differences are not dramatic. Given neither of the above, charm is preferable to edge every time.

There are tricks a decent valve amp can pull off that solid state amps cannot. It is easy to trot out all the clichés about valve amps until you hear one, as I did until I heard one.

Forget, warmth, sweetness etc as any solid state amp can be tailored to have these qualities. Valve amps have a much faster transient response enabling not just better dynamics but also the reproduction of texture and reverberations of notes. Lower perceived distortion at the top end enables much better separation between instruments, more convincing and realistic reproduction of decay of notes and in hi-fi terms, better imaging and 3D soundstaging.

Solid state amps measure better in terms of distortion when you pass a constant test tone through them but seem to distort more with transients. That edginess/grain that you hear with a ss amp is distortion and it's clearly audible. The benign distortions of valves are inaudible or do not detract from the music signal. A decent valve amp also will give you wide bandwidth and a very linear and tine-aligned response across the frequency range.

Basically, they capture the musical info on the recording more faithfully.

Mr. C
15-06-2009, 07:50
Steve,
Very nicely written, though I will disagree :ner:
He says sticking his head in the lions mouth (AOS where solid state is very much the under dog)
To quote your phrase "the proof of the pudding" :eyebrows:

Marco
15-06-2009, 08:18
Morning Tony,

I still have what your good lady told me regarding the sound AOS produced (with all-valve amplification) at Scalford hall firmly embedded in memory...

Did she tell you what that was? If not, I'd suggest that you ask her :eyebrows: ;)

AOS is not wedded to valves for reasons of nostalgia or 'romance'. We like them because, as discerning listeners and music lovers, experience tells us that they reproduce music more accurately in a real sense, as Steve has just described. I couldn't give a monkey's what type of technology my amps use.

If solid-state amps gave a better result to my ears (and those of others here), that's what we'd be using - but for most of us so far that's not been the case. I look forward though to being 'educated' differently, chez-toi. Have you come up with any dates yet? :)

Steve,

Superb post, mate. I concur fully, and will add more of my thoughts later. :clap:

Marco.

DSJR
15-06-2009, 08:44
I agree about the "perceived" high frequency distortions that can plague some ss equipment, but when a good designer can get great results from a "mere" Class B amp with no edge or grain in the sound (AVI's Martin Grindrod for one), then I still have to say that there are no absolutes here.

I'd also say that valves haven't been used for recording purposes in most studios for decades now and most if not all current recordings go through a hi-tech computer of some sort, even the fabulous new classical recordings where extreme care is taken with the recording and production...

The thing is, valve amps done right are an expensive joy to behold and if they *are* done right, they can use their output valves for many hundreds of hours (unlike my Tube Technology Genesis mono's which ate their EL34's very quickly)......

Spectral Morn
15-06-2009, 09:09
You do realise, dahling, that keeping you entertained is my No1 priority in life :eyebrows:

Marco.

Both you and Steve say it so well...so I am happy to read and be entertained and informed. No point in chipping in if some one else says it as I would say it (different words but message and content the same).


Regards D S D L

Marco
15-06-2009, 09:21
I agree about the "perceived" high frequency distortions that can plague some ss equipment, but when a good designer can get great results from a "mere" Class B amp with no edge or grain in the sound (AVI's Martin Grindrod for one), then I still have to say that there are no absolutes here.


Dave, if the anodyne, non-descript, muzak emitting from ADM9s is the benchmark for what you describe above then I'm afraid we're living on two different planets regarding what we consider as a "great results"!

This rather 'emotionless', 'painting by numbers' type of sound, and musical presentation, is exactly why I don't like solid-state gear much, no matter how adept it can be in some areas.

You asked me earlier why I didn't like ss gear; it's not so much because of any 'grain' or 'edge', but rather a flat, uninteresting, what I would call, 'grey blandness', and 'sat on' effect with music (as if the top end has been lopped off as a result of limited dynamic range), in comparison to what I'm used to - which very importantly for me, doesn't ignite much interest, passion, or involvement in the music program. Even the best solid-state gear I've heard exhibits these traits in comparison with the 'open window' onto the music, and sense of involvement, that is provided by a really good valve amp.

The 'in comparison' bit is very important because unless you're aware of the difference you wouldn't know what was missing or what I'm referring to... I used to, for example, think my Naim 52/135s and 200W ECS monoblocks sounded fantastic! One is on a constant learning curve.

My love of valve equipment has got nothing whatsoever to do with 'charm' imbued on the music signal, but rather exposure to greater accuracy in a real sense of how music actually sounds, and not simply an admirable but ultimately cardboard cut-out of such, rendered in my experience by all the solid-state amps I've heard so far. The only solid-state amps I could live with are some of the huge (pure) Class A designs, as to my ears they get the closest to what really good valve amps do. Luxman and Usher do some fantastic stuff in that respect.

However, going back to AVI, experience tells me that their older gear was indeed excellent. The trouble with AVI, is when they took the decision to abandon 'legacy' hi-fi, as Ash affectionately refers to it, and steer the direction of their products towards computers, they lost the core values of what their designs were about. That's why their older stuff sounds great, and the current stuff (in comparison) is crap.

I believe it was something that they thought long and hard about, and was also largely forced upon them by changes in the industry, and the supply stopping from major manufacturers of key components required by them to produce their range of products. I think they made a mistake in targeting what the mass-market wants. The two ranges of equipment (traditional and computer-orientated) should have run side by side in their product portfolio, thereby maximising the range of customers who'd likely be attracted to their products.

A similar thing also happened to Naim, hence why the 'olive' range was abandoned and the new 'Reference' range born, although Naim stayed faithful to their core values before later introducing products designed for the computer audio market.

But will Ashley admit this? No chance! He probably knows it deep down. However, the harsh commercial reality is now that his company is focused solely in one direction he can't afford to pitch his stance on matters any other way!


The thing is, valve amps done right are an expensive joy to behold and if they *are* done right, they can use their output valves for many hundreds of hours...


Indeed. And like I've said many times before, the reason why some people say untrue things about valve amps, aside from commercial bias or otherwise, is because they've never heard a really good one - therefore the benchmark they've used to form their opinion is flawed. As you say, really good valve amps cost a lot of money - that is unless you buy from selected specialist manufacturers who don't put their products onto the marketplace with profit making or 'badge snobbery'/'prestige value' as the primary goal (or you go the D.I.Y route and make your own). Witness the likes of Croft and Tube Distinctions... One day the penny will drop ;)

Marco.

Giant Haystacks
15-06-2009, 14:16
yes very true a lot of people i know are only interested in big brands and big priced boxes spend a lot and get the best but this is not true .
a story on the diy scene the valve amplifier company which is no more called arion acoustics i lived 20 mins away they were designing there 300b single ended and had audionote ,sowther ,magniquest ,tango ,and border patrol output transformers to experiment with and the border patrol were best
a diy person has not this luxuary
there is a good little amplifier the decware zen but maybe they are bad value for money now

pure sound
15-06-2009, 14:44
A DIY person can have that luxury. BP transformers (at that time) would've come from here.

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/300B-Class-A-output-transformer-valve-amplifier_W0QQitemZ270372783785QQcmdZViewItemQQptZ UK_Consumer_VintageAudio_RL?hash=item3ef37946a9&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=65%3A12%7C66%3A2%7C39%3A1%7C72%3A1683%7C 240%3A1318%7C301%3A1%7C293%3A1%7C294%3A50

although personally I'd use Tango, Hashimoto or Tamura for a DIY project.
You get what you pay for.

DSJR
15-06-2009, 17:27
Dave, if the anodyne, non-descript, muzak emitting from ADM9s is the benchmark for what you describe above then I'm afraid we're living on two different planets regarding what we consider as a "great results"!

Marco.

ADM WHAT??? I don't know what they sound like, I've never heard them...

If you have heard them, what have you heard them with? I don't think a lo-res download via an Apple notebook is quite what you would have in mind. A decent recording at full bit strength possibly, or an analogue feed via a good preamp able to drive several metres of interconnect perhaps. Like I said, I've never heard them and couldn't own such a speaker right now as I'm having far too much fun with the old gear I have. So there :cool:

Marco
15-06-2009, 17:47
I haven't heard them either, Dave, but people whose ears I trust have, which based on the information I've received, allows me thus to make comment. The point is that the products you've cited as being representative of shining examples of solid-state art are no longer relevant to AVI or the current marketplace.

For me, there's no getting away from the fact that AVI have 'sold out' their long-held and respected audiophile credentials to pander to the needs of the convenience market, using computer audio as the vehicle.

I hope for the sake of AVI as a company, and people's livelihoods, that their decision was the right one. I'm a little dubious though of Ashley's claims of huge success, as reported so 'enthusiastically' on various forums. He strikes me as a man under severe pressure.

Marco.

DSJR
15-06-2009, 17:53
Not for internet discussion I suspect ;) but I don't think the audiophile market is big enough to sustain small companies for much longer.

Dinner calls - speak later...

Marco
15-06-2009, 18:11
Dave,

I don't doubt that whatsoever, but the trouble is companies such as AVI churning out so-so products to appeal to the 'cool set', who value minimalism coupled with the latest in technology far more than they do ultimate audio performance, drives down the standards we value. This has a knock-on effect on the whole of the industry and gives genuine enthusiasts like you and me less of the products that we love.

Glenn Croft has got the right idea - give people superb sounding equipment at realistic and affordable prices to show how good a sound you can get for such little outlay. I'm sure he's surviving just nicely. Business is what you make of it. If only more people in the industry shared his values.

Enjoy your din-dins! :)

Marco.

speakers-1989
15-06-2009, 18:26
1 min DSJR is online and the next thing. He's gone!!!!

No offense Dave.

Steve Toy
15-06-2009, 18:35
He did say he was off for his dinner. Some people should perhaps read the old posts again first before being too eager for the new ones lol.

DSJR
15-06-2009, 18:57
Very humble poor-man's din-dins too :(

Don't judge ADM9.1's until you've heard them on sources you trust, any more than I shall :) There were too many people out for Ashley's blood a year ago to make second hand listening opinions truly valid and the sound at the show was pretty dire by all accounts - foot, shooting themselves?...

Marco
15-06-2009, 19:21
I'm sure that ADM9s are perfectly adequate for their purpose, but knowing the sort of speakers and sound I like, you'll perhaps forgive me if I fail to get moist at the prospect of listening to any tiny box with a 6" drive unit, no matter what it's connected to :eyebrows:

I'm afraid that Ashley is his own worst enemy.

Btw, I often find 'peasant food' to be most nourishing and flavourful ;)

Marco.

Steve Toy
15-06-2009, 23:41
I heard the ADM9s at the Bristol Show last year and I pressed Ashley at the time about the quality of the source material and how it was encoded. He stated that MP3 was fine and that higher resolution than that was irrelevant. He also refused to state how each of the recordings he was playing had been encoded/on which particular format.

I've heard his setup; it sounded dull, flat, strident and boring.

Oh, it was loud but very undynamic.

He also rubbished my findings having heard the Naim demonstration.

The guy is clearly a charismatic and yet disingenuous plonker.

tfarney
16-06-2009, 02:04
Marco, thanks for the welcome back. I've lurked from time to time, but found few discussions I thought would warm to my point of view :). No, I'm not surprised that you disagree. And you won't be surprised, I'm sure, by my disagreement either. I understand the attraction to valve gear, but disagree with your characterization of it. I find good valve gear pleasant to listen to but far from "natural." I find the best, the most "natural" to be the least distinguishable from good solid state. No need to argue over it. It is simply two differing opinions.

It's OK that we disagree as it is a big world with a lot of choices. And I'm afraid we probably disagree even more now than we did when we last talked, because since then, I have acquired a pair of AVi ADM9.1s. :doh: They are, to my ears, precisely the kind of "boring," "dull," and "lifeless" that I love: Harsh recordings sound harsh. Clear recordings sound clear. Flat is flat and dynamic is dynamic (I completely disagree with Steve's characterization of their dynamic range, which is stunning for such a small speaker, on both a macro and micro level). They remind me of the best traits of the best active studio monitors I've worked with, without the flaws. Add the sub and I'm sure the scale would be more than enough for you, or anyone not living in a stadium, but you would still not be happy with them. I feed them lossless files, and they are a far cry from vinyl, valves and Tannoys. You wouldn't like them. That's OK. I'm the one who needs to like them. I'm the one who owns them.

Tim

Marco
16-06-2009, 07:02
LOL! What can I say, Tim? :respect:

It would indeed be a boring world if we were all the same! The cool thing is you're happy in your world and I'm happy in mine - sounds like a result to me :cool:

Don't be such a stranger in future, though. It's always nice chatting to you even though we rarely sing from the same song sheet.

All the best from this side of the pond :)

Marco.

Marco
16-06-2009, 08:41
Hi Vinnie,

Your enquiry has now been moved ot the D.I.Y section:

http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=3052

Marco.

symon
30-06-2009, 22:24
Sorry, asked a silly question. Please carry on.

SPS
01-07-2009, 16:26
I for one would like to know the ratio of speaker efficiency to amp. output (disregarding room size and personal volume preferences). I've never seen such a chart, so maybe there are just too many variables.


just having a quiet break and i dont think this has been explained

i'm not going to be very technical...

the ratio of watts to loudness starts with the speaker eff..

and as you double the watts from the amp you get +3dbs.. which is just nicely louder...

so an 85db at one watt speaker will give 88 db at 2 watts, 91 db at 4 watts 94db at8 watts... . so 105 db peaks need over 60 watts
thats sound easy...
but.. we are talking peak.. not rms values with a music signal,
so if the music your listening to is compressed to a 30db sound envelope

and your listening at 85 dbs average, parts of the music will be 15dbs louder and parts15 dbs quieter.

so, to listen at that level , and to play the peaks without distortion,
around 30watts is needed
around 85 to 90 dbs is my average listening levels
work that out how many watts is needed at 90 dbs average listening levels

most amps are not running is class A at that level,
and if the amp has a poor power supply, and the speakers them selves are being overdriven they will not play those peaks correctly.. resulting in distortion, or at best lack of life or scale,

now... work out how many watts are requred from 99 db speakers


most people think hi eff speaker just go louder... well they do....but

they go louder because they follow the musical sine wave signal much more.. the peaks in the signal are the volume, low eff speakers may only produce a small portion of that signal, and miss the finer details in the signal ...along with the volume that was in the source signal

i'm talking cone speakers
and the above is dependant on the basic quality of the drivers to start with being equal....regardless of eff.. there are good and bad in all.. but i'm sure hi eff gives the better sound, all being equal, but it is hard to achieve and sometimes expensive.



do realise that most (all?) powerful valve amps. are push-pull, and maybe you don't consider these to to have the same musical prowess as SETs, etc

well i dont know if you have had this answered
but my veiw..

audio valves generally come in two types triodes and pentodes/tetrodes

the triode is the basic valve and has one amplifing stage in it
it gives out a low output vs the current it uses
the pentode and tetrodes use extra grids, that give more amplification for the same amount of current used.,

with a triode you generally have a higher current to signal voltage ratio
which has its advantages. and much less distortion
but less volume...

its a bit like driving a car, 2nd gear is the triode, 4th is the pentode.. you can go faster( louder), but when you get a load it slows.. thats the effect on the valve from the signal.. a varying load (hills to the car).. you rarely get anything without some cost.. both types sound very good.. the triode should be a more accurate amplifer....


so triodes are generally used for low watt amps both push pull and single ended, and dont need feed back, and pentodes/ tetrodes can be used or higher powered p/p or single ended and generally use feedback.

push pull.. there are some very good push pull amps and some not so good

like most solid state amps there are two or more amplifing devices working together, matched valves are within 5% so not many valves are identical

so both give a very slightly different operational point, one side is pulling the speaker mostly back the other valve pushing mostly forwards, there is an overlap.
if the amp has been built very well, and the valves are very close, you can get near identical performace from both sides of the amp, and there are some very good p/p amps, but most are not like this, and you end up with each valves output being slightly different, so the push is different to the pull..

think of a photo through two projectors that are not quite focused on the same spot..

the slower parts of the signal will sound thickened up( bass) and the finer details will be masked,.. and the sharpness and transients suffer.. but there are good and bad in push pull of course..

now... many like the sound of a bad (and in betweens) push pull...
my veiw is because the speakers being used are not fast/accurate enough to reproduce what is actually going on, and our ears are easily fooled by the perceived extra depth, but slight lack of detail

cheers steve

DSJR
01-07-2009, 16:51
SET's are *supposedly* renowned for having loads of distortion. Their trick however, seems to be in the fact that this is added harmonics NOT smeared over time, so the sound is clearer and easier to follow.

An extreme example the other way was the Far Eastern amps from the mid seventies, designed with loads of global feedback to give very low THD, but smearing the distortion signal over the milli-seconds giving a dead and lifeless quality to the music processed through them. Just my view though..

It was said decades ago that what we need is 5W continuous with peaks of a KiloWatt or more. In practice we get nowhere near this ideal and currently, active speakers seem to come closest in terms of ultimate efficiency vs power. It's a real shame that AVI didn't play better produced material to show their speakers off - I understand they *can* do it for their size on a good, uncompressed recording.

Speakers are still the weakest part of the playback process and although the likes of Harbeth have worked extremely hard to get delicate and dynamic sounding speakers that also reproduce voice and acoustic instruments to a very high standard, leaving the soggy stodgy bass long behind.