View Full Version : Listening to music Vs feeling the music.
kalozois100
01-05-2009, 08:55
Hi all,
Risking being considered a total nutter i have opened this thread. Why? Well i have always been interested in music in two ways:- 1. how the music sounds in terms of clarity, detail and generally all that is audioable to the ear. and, 2. how the music/system feels to the listener in that area of non audioable parts perhaps what causes the listener to experience that emotional aspect of the music.
you see folks i grew up with a deaf brother. he has zero hearing capabilities. yet he enjoyed and still does sound waves. for example he would often go with us to music concerts and the cinema. when i asked him why the music concerts he said apart from the great lighting and dancers on stage he liked the feeling of the music. At home he could identify certain types of music from the feeling rather than hearing like the rest of us. however the sound level needed to be at least at 12 o clock for him to be able to do this.
In present day when he comes round to visit he often asks me to put some music on loud. I even ask his opinion on new upgrades and if i'm lucky he will comment that the music feels really good. For example he really likes the new mark grant interconnects i recently bought. In his own home he has a av home theater and even when he is alone and his children that can hear are not there he pumps up that volume switch with a grin on his face. When i ask him why he puts audio on whilst watching a dvd he says the film is more real. perhaps he is tuning into certain frequencies that we unconsciously do and enjoys that part of the music? he is particularly sensitive to bass and sud woofer frequencies describing tight bass as clear and muddled bass as cloudy. He is obviously tuning into some parts of music but i can't explain it scientifically. If i'm not nuts forwarding this thread then what implications does it have for us hearing persons when it comes to the quality of emotional response of listening to music?? if this is so, that the music has to be loud enough to get that feeling out of it aswell as what you can audiably hear, then is it possible to have this effect with headphones aswell as lounge speakers.?
Perhaps the scientists amongst us members can explain if within the realms of physics part of music there really is a place for feeling music aswell as listening to it. Is this the part where really great ( not necesarrily expensive) audio systems stand out from the rest in their ability to move you emotionally as well as offer clear detailed audioable sound ??
I remember the very first time i heard cds and compared to vinyls they not only did not sound right but did not feel right either.........
Please feel free to discuss and comment on the above.. I await some interesting feedback from others.
The Grand Wazoo
01-05-2009, 16:02
This, I find absolutely fascinating, yet somehow, I'm not at all surprised.
There's so much we don't know about ourselves & the way we work. Maybe music therapy has more possible applications?
You say you'd like to know the effect of headphones & the difference between digital & analogue - well why don't you ask your brother?
I'd love to hear what he thinks..........
I'm going to drop myself in hugely deep doo-doo here, but the reason why vinyl makes the earth move for you guys is the horrendous distortion this medium introduces into the bass region - more often than not. It's easily measurable too, so not just an opinion.
When I used to visit shows, my colleque and I used to guess what room was playing LP's from the corridor outside. We got it right every time because the rooms playing LP's had this squidgy bass droning noise coming out of them...... Like it or not, CD has the potential to sound closer to the original recording and often does - been there, done that! Whether you like the "truth" or not is entirely up to you ;).
I caused no end of hearing damage to myself by listening to headphones too loudly. I do agree that speakers allow the body to "feel" the music better and the bigger the speaker the better (and if they're good, the better CD reproduction usually becomes).....
You know, I don't care what format my music is played on. if the music is good enough, it transcends the medium and one "feels" with the emotions, not the body.
The Grand Wazoo
01-05-2009, 17:04
I'm going to drop myself in hugely deep doo-doo here, but the reason why vinyl makes the earth move for you guys is the horrendous distortion this medium introduces into the bass region - more often than not. It's easily measurable too, so not just an opinion.
When I used to visit shows, my colleque and I used to guess what room was playing LP's from the corridor outside. We got it right every time because the rooms playing LP's had this squidgy bass droning noise coming out of them...... Like it or not, CD has the potential to sound closer to the original recording and often does - been there, done that! Whether you like the "truth" or not is entirely up to you ;).
I caused no end of hearing damage to myself by listening to headphones too loudly. I do agree that speakers allow the body to "feel" the music better and the bigger the speaker the better (and if they're good, the better CD reproduction usually becomes).....
You know, I don't care what format my music is played on. if the music is good enough, it transcends the medium and one "feels" with the emotions, not the body.
Dave, your last comment, I agree with wholeheartedly, but I can't let the rest of it go (not that it's particularly pertinent to the original post, which doesn't deserve to be hijacked).
Firstly, there's more to music than bass - if you don't like analogue bass, then can you bear to hear anything live, other than an acoustic bass?
I don't know when you did your show visiting, but I have memories of CD systems at shows proudly displaying harsh, scalping top end & barely any bass to speak of - I'm sure that was measurable too.
What you describe as 'the truth' is merely a portion of the truth - they chucked most of it away - including some of the bass. So which is the more truthful - the one that contains something extra, or the one that contains much, much less?
I wouldn't dare presume to know what you hear, but you seem intent on doing just that to others. No-one mentioned truth - the posting is about a deaf guy who finds pleasure from music, something we should all be celebrating.
kalozois100
01-05-2009, 17:07
This, I find absolutely fascinating, yet somehow, I'm not at all surprised.
There's so much we don't know about ourselves & the way we work. Maybe music therapy has more possible applications?
You say you'd like to know the effect of headphones & the difference between digital & analogue - well why don't you ask your brother?
I'd love to hear what he thinks..........
Hi there Chris,
Thanks for the reply. My brother using headphones is a no goer since he has no hearing in either ear. What I tried to communiate is that using lounge speakers he is able to "read " the music in a six sense kind of way .e.g. He will often associate an emotion with the type of music played i.e. he describes heavy metal as angry, balads as peacefull, pop as happy, jazz as lively, rap as forcefull, classical as sad. is this how the musician feels whilst playing the instruments as the music is being recorded? Who knows. I too find this facinating. I think that the speakers push air in the room and it arrives to bodies in two forms the audioable and the emotional. We all know the speakers produce movements in furniture eg when we touch the sofa we can feel the music. This must occur in bio masses too.
My brother has always prefered analogue over digital. He describes emotionally (and not audioally) that analogue feels like a sunny clear day whereas digital is like a hazy day. However this is an unfair comparison as i do not have either top end analogue or digital sources.
kalozois100
01-05-2009, 17:27
I'm going to drop myself in hugely deep doo-doo here, but the reason why vinyl makes the earth move for you guys is the horrendous distortion this medium introduces into the bass region - more often than not. It's easily measurable too, so not just an opinion.
When I used to visit shows, my colleque and I used to guess what room was playing LP's from the corridor outside. We got it right every time because the rooms playing LP's had this squidgy bass droning noise coming out of them...... Like it or not, CD has the potential to sound closer to the original recording and often does - been there, done that! Whether you like the "truth" or not is entirely up to you ;).
I caused no end of hearing damage to myself by listening to headphones too loudly. I do agree that speakers allow the body to "feel" the music better and the bigger the speaker the better (and if they're good, the better CD reproduction usually becomes).....
You know, I don't care what format my music is played on. if the music is good enough, it transcends the medium and one "feels" with the emotions, not the body.
Thankyou Dave for your interesting comments. I too am concerned about hearing damage and since I can't resist switching the volume way high on headphones i tend not to use them.
My comments about cd sounding not as good or feeling as good as analogue was back in the late eighties when i first heard cds played. 20 years on and digital medium is a whole different kettle of fish! I am amazed how great digital audio sounds. I personally don't get caught up in which source is better. On the german autobahn i would use a bmw 750 but off road i would use a rangerover. i have material on vinyl and on cd/pc. I use both mediums to listen to music i like wether it is on vinyl or cd/pc. :)
For me there has always been a emotional connection to music but I also enjoy the physical connection too For me music is more than just pure sound
I know a person who is deaf and just by slightly moving a CDclose to her ear she can tell which album it is
Hey, no high horses here man :)
Am I "doing an Ashley" and insisting that everyone should hear things the way I do? Not my intention I assure you all, but forty years of this audio obsession, coupled with many hours listening to good master tapes at work and at home via a Hi speed IEC Revox B77 has perhaps opened my eyes to some "truths" that people not in the industry haven't yet heard. Apologies. A bit like ex-smokers getting all high and mighty with those that still smoke...
The OP asked for feedback and I agree it's great if the blind chap can still appreciate music by vibrations, or whichever way he "feels" it.
Lastly, regarding HiFi "Truth" where LP reproduction is concerned. If the LP has less, is it the job for the turntable system to add "more" to make it palatable? A subject for another thread methinks if not here...
Dave, your last comment, I agree with wholeheartedly, but I can't let the rest of it go (not that it's particularly pertinent to the original post, which doesn't deserve to be hijacked).
Firstly, there's more to music than bass - if you don't like analogue bass, then can you bear to hear anything live, other than an acoustic bass?
I don't know when you did your show visiting, but I have memories of CD systems at shows proudly displaying harsh, scalping top end & barely any bass to speak of - I'm sure that was measurable too.
What you describe as 'the truth' is merely a portion of the truth - they chucked most of it away - including some of the bass. So which is the more truthful - the one that contains something extra, or the one that contains much, much less?
I wouldn't dare presume to know what you hear, but you seem intent on doing just that to others. No-one mentioned truth - the posting is about a deaf guy who finds pleasure from music, something we should all be celebrating.
Hi Guys :),
I find this thread fascinating also but perhaps for different reasons to the rest of the contribitors. (or perhaps not ??) My hearing is about normal for a 69 year old that has spent all his working life in the heavy (noisy) steel industry, that is, typical industrial related hearing loss (of the highest and lowest frequencies), but mid ranges OK. I posted on another thread that I listened to track 2 of 'Far Away Trains Passing By' by Ulrich Schnauss for the first time the other day and mentioned that, on some of the lower bass notes (on this track mainly but also others), I not only heard the bass but also felt it in my solar plexus area. This did not strike me as unusual at the time because, in my earlier days, I always steered clear of loud music sources because the bass sounds (particularly) were 'too much' for me - made me quite unpopular with my mates, at times !!
Question: -
Is this 'feeling' of bass notes by body parts other than ears shared by everyone or am I somewhat unusual - polite answers would be preferred please !! :lolsign:
Music as heard live or well recorded via a sound system should cause one to physically "feel" the notes IMO, as opposed to headphones, where only the ears get the full assault. The result is that idiots like me used to turn the volume up on 'phones in an attempt to correct for this.....:(
One problem we humans apparently have is that our eyesight accounts for around 75% of our processing power and if there's a picture to watch as well as the music, the picture takes over - one reason why we put up with lousy sounding TV sets or the average nasty AV system. Turn the picture off and many of these setups perform dismally.
Distortion - it all depends what you measure. The are plenty on people who claim that CD is more distorted than LP, eg Noel Keyword. This ends up being a circular argument. A deaf person being able to detect LP vs CD by feel, that's interesting.
Yeah, CD is more distorted down at tape hiss level and I believe (digital) noise shaping takes this way from where our hearing is most sensitive. Suitably digitally treated/noise shaped, Japanese bells recorded down at -90db onto CD sounded fine, a low enough level that vinyl cannot get anywhere near below 1KHz and even above this frequency, the noise is -70db at best. I think NK plays his argument at a very basic level, only I can't argue back on a technical level.
Apologies for thread cr@pping. I'll crawl back under my stone now...
World famous orchestral percussionist Evelyn Glennie is deaf as a post, but one of the most nuanced musicians there is. She even tunes her instruments to pitch herself - Timpani for instance - by feeling how far up her arms the vibrations reach. She also likes to perform barefoot in order to feel thing better, I believe.
Feeling the music is crucial - it is often those who hear it best who do not appreciate the feel in music. Their loss, and in terms of a performer often the difference between a competent player & a musician.
Spectral Morn
01-05-2009, 21:40
World famous orchestral percussionist Evelyn Glennie is deaf as a post, but one of the most nuanced musicians there is. She even tunes her instruments to pitch herself - Timpani for instance - by feeling how far up her arms the vibrations reach. She also likes to perform barefoot in order to feel thing better, I believe.
Feeling the music is crucial - it is often those who hear it best who do not appreciate the feel in music. Their loss, and in terms of a performer often the difference between a competent player & a musician.
You beat me to it... about Evelyn Glennie.
Its about vibration at the very basic level. Our ear drums vibrate and turn the signal into electrical impulses which are sent to the brain and then decoded. This to me explains why analogue and particularly vinyl (its how a cartridge works)sounds better than digital CD...because the process in analogue more closely matches how our ears work....and to me sounds more life like and natural. While the gap has narrowed between analogue and digital the fundamental way digital works is the barrier which will IMHO stop it surpassing the best analogue.
It seems logical that vibration is also picked up by the body and with training, practice or innate skill you might be able to use this vibration to decode music and other sounds. However I can only begin to imagine how that might work....it would be totally alien to using ears.
Regards D S D L
kalozois100
02-05-2009, 05:46
World famous orchestral percussionist Evelyn Glennie is deaf as a post, but one of the most nuanced musicians there is. She even tunes her instruments to pitch herself - Timpani for instance - by feeling how far up her arms the vibrations reach. She also likes to perform barefoot in order to feel thing better, I believe.
Feeling the music is crucial - it is often those who hear it best who do not appreciate the feel in music. Their loss, and in terms of a performer often the difference between a competent player & a musician.
Thank you all for the interesting and informative replies. Yes Alan I think my brother , after giving it some more thought, must be using audio vibrations to "feel" the music. I wasn't aware that the were deaf musicians I'll let my brother know about that thanks.
Perhaps those in the technical side could start off a spin off thread about vibrations from music , how it is measured and how it is improved or degraded by changes in equipment. :scratch:
""A deaf person being able to detect LP vs CD by feel, that's interesting. ""
Just wanted to say my deaf brother can't, say , walk into a room and identify what source is playing cd or LP. however when switching between the two he seems to like the vibrations more from vinyl. However since i have had the beresford dac he seems to notice less difference in variations of vibrations between the two sources. It seems the gap between cd and LP is closing and hopefully one day there will be no difference at all!
two sources
Hi Dave,
I'm going to drop myself in hugely deep doo-doo here, but the reason why vinyl makes the earth move for you guys is the horrendous distortion this medium introduces into the bass region - more often than not. It's easily measurable too, so not just an opinion.
Is that 'measurable' by the human ear or some piece of scientific apparatus that can only measure certain established audio parameters (i.e. not all that matters)? I care not a jot about the latter; the former is all that should matter to the end user of hi-fi equipment and music lovers.
And, moreover, are we talking about measuring music signals or 'sound' signals? There is a big difference!
I completely disagree about this "bass distortion" of which you mention. My T/T produces more realistic, 'real' bass (using the sound of live instruments as the benchmark - not flawed test equiment) than my CD player. All I can say, Dave, is that from what you describe you must have used and been used to some pretty shit turntables in your day :ner:
I suspect that they were mostly wobbly rubber-banders, which would explain a lot ;)
Direct-drives sound much 'tighter', more controlled; more 'CD or digital-like', but without the nastiness, and yes, more 'accurate' - but 'accurate' in a genuine musical sense, not what is deemed as 'accurate' by a bloody oscilloscope!!
Tell you what I'll do, if when you visit me (I trust you will at some point) and you feel the same way about T/Ts after hearing my Techy in comparison to the Sony (and the Sony is bloody good!) then I'll gladly donate £250 to the charity of your choice...
Howzat - are you up for it? :cool:
Marco.
My twopenny worth is that computer audio playing CD-derived WAVs via a decent dac is such a step up from any CDP I've heard that CDPs have to be doing something wrong, probably when they are reading data from CDs - we don't measure how typical CDs are read. It is all down to what measurements you take. I should add that I find computer audio far closer in musically to LP than CD.
I wonder if our deaf "listeners" could detect CD vs PC.
My twopenny worth is that computer audio playing CD-derived WAVs via a decent dac is such a step up from any CDP I've heard that CDPs have to be doing something wrong, probably when they are reading data from CDs - we don't measuring how typical CDs are read. It is all down to what measurements you take. I should add that I find computer audio far closer in musically to LP than CD.
Clive, I completely agree.
CD, no matter the quality of CD player, sounds 'plasticy' and 'processed' in comparison. High quality, well-recorded vinyl, through a top-notch T/T and ancillaries, or digital computer audio as you describe above, is where it's at. *But* as far as the latter is concerned, the quality of the DAC is absolutely crucial. I'm afraid that a lot of the stuff produced commercially now just doesn't cut it... The Beresford, and a few others, are the exception rather than the rule, but there's a lot of shit out there, and some of it is expensive shit!!
Marco.
I had a polite reply ready to post and stopped for a moment to watch something on TV and somehow it got itself deleted. probably for the best ;)
My experience of LP reproduction goes way beyond springy belt drives Marco - 301's, 401's, Techies of all ages and models including the wonderful SP10 (I've just been given an SL150, by the way and look forward to fettling it...) and my beloved Nott's Analogue decks. I've had the priviledge to hear some pretty outstanding stuff on LP, but also on master tape and acetate as well. I've also heard many really good CD players and personally find the lack of added charm, multi-mono quality and occasional dryness of this medium more like the donor recording, the LP somehow blending and sweetening the pill. I have had the exposure to original recordings over the decades you know...:)
I'd rather we beg to differ for now as I've cr@pped this thread enough. i didn't say I disliked colouration - I love my old Quads to bits and no way are they truthful to the signal they're given, but they always bring a smile to my face and that's good... When we do meet, I'd very much love to hear your system and don't give a toss what source you use. The experience of hearing a well chosen setup and hearing new music(s) will be more than enough reward...
To the poster above who rather prefers streaming digits to "real time" CD reproduction, I hear you, but can only assure you that not all CD players screw up with their transports. I don't have enough experience with using a computer as a source to judge, but I'm stunned that in these days of cheap memory that more CD manufacturers don't buffer a second or two of music and "stream" it out better into the internal DACs. A subject for another thread perhaps.....
- I love my old Quads to bits and no way are they truthful to the signal they're given, but they always bring a smile to my face and that's good...
To the poster above who rather prefers streaming digits to "real time" CD reproduction, I hear you, but can only assure you that not all CD players screw up with their transports. I don't have enough experience with using a computer as a source to judge, but I'm stunned that in these days of cheap memory that more CD manufacturers don't buffer a second or two of music and "stream" it out better into the internal DACs. A subject for another thread perhaps.....
What 'old Quads' would they be?
Agree with you over the last paragraph. Like you, I don't have enough experience with computer audio; having only listened to a few sample tracks on Amazon, but tend to think that CD quality depends on both the player as well as the transcription; I find that with most CD re-masters, I re-experience the moment and joy I had when I first heard the record.
Barry
Quads?
These...
http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q8/DSJR_photos/TheQuads.jpg
http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q8/DSJR_photos/QuadIIcropped.jpg
Before anyone gets snotty about the "altered/improved/butchered/bodged" undersides, they were "done" by a certain Glenn Croft and if he hadn't, they'd be in a landfill.....
To the poster above who rather prefers streaming digits to "real time" CD reproduction, I hear you, but can only assure you that not all CD players screw up with their transports. I don't have enough experience with using a computer as a source to judge, but I'm stunned that in these days of cheap memory that more CD manufacturers don't buffer a second or two of music and "stream" it out better into the internal DACs. A subject for another thread perhaps.....
We are off-topic for sure. Buffering doesn't help if you read dross in the first place, GIGO - garbage in garbage out. It seems that CD transports are frankly flawed. 70's technology introduced in the 80's. At least computer audio salvages the WAV files and makes them sound as they should.
There are a great number of people who have computer audio experience who have heard the difference. Play my Meridian with it's buffering DVD drive into a Beresofrd 7520 and it sounds little different to the Meridian as a CDP. Play a well setup PC (the s/w setup is vital) into the 7520 and the difference is stunning. The same would be true if you played it through clinical and revealing recording studio systems - which by their nature are not home hi-fi systems, their purpose is very different.
As for "real time" CD, it does not exist, CDs played this way will have a different bitstream every time you play them, or nearly every time. CD will play sounds at a given time but is inaccurate, not bit perfect or consistent.
My experience of LP reproduction goes way beyond springy belt drives Marco - 301's, 401's, Techies of all ages and models including the wonderful SP10...
I was wondering, Dave, given your comments earlier:
When I used to visit shows, my colleque and I used to guess what room was playing LP's from the corridor outside. We got it right every time because the rooms playing LP's had this squidgy bass droning noise coming out of them...... Like it or not, CD has the potential to sound closer to the original recording and often does - been there, done that! Whether you like the "truth" or not is entirely up to you .
which do not resemble one iota what I hear with the modified 1210 in my system, or indeed many other fine T/Ts I've heard in other people's systems! ;)
Quite frankly, the picture you're painting of vinyl is so diametrically opposed to what I've experienced on a good T/T and system that I wonder if we're living on different planets altogether!! :lol:
You appear to consider vinyl as coloured, and I know where you're coming from, but my experience tells me that when both vinyl and CD are done very well, it is the latter that is usually more coloured sounding. The 'etched', overly clinical 'processed' quality of CD invariably gets in the way of the music and how real instruments and voices actually sound when heard live.
Vinyl done well has a tonal and harmonic accuracy which IMO better emulates that present in real voices and instruments, and this succeeds to more accurately portray involvement that the ear processes and uses to aid the effective communication of the musical message.
This is the sort of thing that no oscilloscope or piece of scientific apparatus can measure and is fundamentally important to a human being's enjoyment of music and its faithful portrayal thereof! It also successfully highlights the distinction between mere 'sound' and music.
I don't listen to vinyl to be seduced by euphonic coloration - I listen to it because I consider it to be a fundamentally faithful carrier of music. The "truth" is out there all right, mate, but it comes in the form of a 12" piece of vinyl, or high-resolution data via a computer and high quality DAC. CD was always a broken musical medium from the off and we're just beginning to realise it now...
Marco.
Haselsh1
02-05-2009, 22:38
If only they hadn't had to use 16 bit 44.1...!!!
kalozois100
03-05-2009, 08:11
Hi all,
The title of the thread is listening to music vs feeling the music. I don't feel the discussion is off track or that some have crapped or hijacked this thread.
I think it is evolving into a very interesting discussion from each members personal experinces of vinyl, cdps, and pc streaming to get as close to the how the recordings were intended to be listened to. Please feel free to carry on and allow it take its natural direction. :)
Hi all,
The title of the thread is listening to music vs feeling the music. I don't feel the discussion is off track or that some have crapped or hijacked this thread.
I think it is evolving into a very interesting discussion from each members personal experinces of vinyl, cdps, and pc streaming to get as close to the how the recordings were intended to be listened to. Please feel free to carry on and allow it take its natural direction. :)
Thank you for your encouragement!
I'd like to add something to my comments on pure CDP audio vs Computer-based playing of 16/44.1 files.
First of all resolution - 16/44.1 vs analogue, LP and especially R2R tape, there seems to be little argument or general dispute that analogue has higher resolution. Noise with analogue seems to be quite well filtered out by us humans. Digitally created noise is a much greater issue and noise in the digital format takes on very different characteristics so it impacts us in quite a different way.
Now for my main assertion. 16/44.1 is a computer based encoding format. With CDPs we are trying to read data via a wholly inappropriate means. If we had our bank transactions read by this means we might end up with:
Transaction 15: withdrawal of £1,589
Transaction 16: can't read it so repeat transaction 15
We would not be very happy about this! Nor would be happy if control system computers monitoring nuclear reactors worked the same way.
Using a computer to read digitally encoded 16/44.1 data seems totally logical to me - but then I've worked in IT for 30 years. The way the CDPs read CDs is so naff and variable it's not surprising computers give better results. No amount of CDP buffering will improve the data, it's all about GIGO. Just as with LPs if we use a really grotty cartridge or dirty stylus that mistracks, you can never get the quality back after that.
Bearing in mind what I've been up to this morning, I'm going to start another thread methinks :lol:
P.S. I do like the computer data idea that the data is very heavily checked when stored, whereas CD appears to be done in real time. I still feel that a good CD mech (if they still exist) and a carefully designed DAC input can sort the worst of the "jitter etc." out and bring forth good music. having said that, my machine is built like a brick outhouse, is twenty years old with one of the best Philips mechs inside (CDM1) and has a revised clock circuit in it with transformer coupled output stage to the amp, which removes a lot of rf borne nasties I think. The result is a glorious soundstage with just the faintest hint of "nasal" colouration compared to the better £6K players of ten years ago - meaning that a Cambridge 840C may just better it possible :D
One thing I can say is that I NEED music in my life and get very frustrated and "out of it" without. There's not much good going on right now and music is one of the main comforts I get.........
Dave,
I still feel that a good CD mech (if they still exist) and a carefully designed DAC input can sort the worst of the "jitter etc." out and bring forth good music. having said that, my machine is built like a brick outhouse, is twenty years old with one of the best Philips mechs inside (CDM1) and has a revised clock circuit in it with transformer coupled output stage to the amp, which removes a lot of rf borne nasties I think.
I agree, and this also sums up my Sony (it's probably even more 'OTT' in that respect than your machine) but it's still nowhere near the performance level of the Techy when playing mint, audiophile quality vinyl, or for that matter a good computer audio set-up streaming WAV using a top-notch DAC! ;)
Marco.
kalozois100
03-05-2009, 14:44
A friend of has recently bought a cyrus transport and a lat coax. cable for his external dac. When he arrives back here from the uk hes gonna bring it over for me to have a listen to it on my set up. I'll keep you informed how it performs. it is ofcurse way too expensive for me to buy. Apparently it has all sorts of wizzadry claiming to have done away with all past problems associated with cd transports. I look forward to trying it out with a stan dac.:eyebrows:
The Vinyl Adventure
12-05-2009, 23:07
Hi all,
The title of the thread is listening to music vs feeling the music. I don't feel the discussion is off track or that some have crapped or hijacked this thread.
I think it is evolving into a very interesting discussion from each members personal experinces of vinyl, cdps, and pc streaming to get as close to the how the recordings were intended to be listened to. Please feel free to carry on and allow it take its natural direction. :)
i think it is a shame that this has gone off subject a bit
so im goint to put in my 2 cents in on the litening/feeling music stuff
i know very little about hifi compared to most people on here, but what i do know is how it makes me feel to listen to music i like
on the side of the listening to music, firstly has anyone ever wondered what came first: the tradition of using minor notes to convey sadness, and so an understanding of sadness through the tradition of useing such note.
or
the ability of sadness to be put across by minor notes and so the use of them when that effect is desired
ie do we understand that feeling because using minor notes tradtionaly portrays a sadness : nurture
or do we understand it because its the way we are made: nature
i say nature, after all my dog understands when im annoyed with her an i say "piglet" (her name.. not my idea) in a anoyed (minor) voice
as for music having an effect on me through feeling/vibration
well call me a hippy but there is a hell of a lot of feelings and vibes i get from things that give off much less electrical energy/sound waves than a pair of speakers
surely others on here get that sence of tranquility walking through a wood or that feeling of peace in wide open spaces. what about the feeling of exitment at a live performance of music
my fiancee has periodically sufferd with abdominal pain that the doctors cant find reason for. when she gets it, i can get pain too, i can even tell her which side it hurts more on and im never wrong
i know a person who can hold an object and tell you features of the room that object came from even when she has never been in the room. now if all this stuff can happen, to think that getting blasted with sound vibrations that directly corrolate to electrical impulses wouldnt have an effect beyond the obvious, to me would be blinkered!
i would certainly be interested to here what other people think about this if anyone has anything to input into this aspect of the thread
p.s
is richard dunn a member of this forum, im fairly certain he would have a few things to say on this subject.. both on the feeling of music and the vinyl vs digital thing
The Vinyl Adventure
12-05-2009, 23:30
oh and i forgot to mention repetative rythm used to help gain a trance like state in many cultures... there has to be something in that!
Thank you all for the interesting and informative replies. Yes Alan I think my brother , after giving it some more thought, must be using audio vibrations to "feel" the music. I wasn't aware that the were deaf musicians I'll let my brother know about that thanks.
Perhaps those in the technical side could start off a spin off thread about vibrations from music , how it is measured and how it is improved or degraded by changes in equipment. :scratch:
""A deaf person being able to detect LP vs CD by feel, that's interesting. ""
Just wanted to say my deaf brother can't, say , walk into a room and identify what source is playing cd or LP. however when switching between the two he seems to like the vibrations more from vinyl. However since i have had the beresford dac he seems to notice less difference in variations of vibrations between the two sources. It seems the gap between cd and LP is closing and hopefully one day there will be no difference at all!
two sources
I've stumbled across this thread rather late, but I'll make a contribution none the less. I have seen Evelyn Glennie and it is remarkable how well she can play percussion. Keeping time and maintaining rhythm is probably easy to understand but the tuning of her instruments, that is quite remarkable - even the late Sir Georg Solti was impressed.
As the frequency goes down we start to feel the sound vibrations with our body rather than hear them with our ears (here the higher frequency sounds are felt by fine hairs in the cochlea; the higher the frequency the shorter the hair). We also start to loose directionality as there is no binaural mechanism available. Eventually for very low frequencies the whole body feels the vibrations and, if of sufficiently high amplitude, will induce feelings of nausea. When various organs in the lower body start to move independently of one another, then the sufferer will double up in discomfort and be incapacitated.
Many years ago the French experimented with this phenomenon, the intention being to use it for anti-riot crowd control. They developed enormous horn loudspeakers and the engineers were protected with very thick padded suits, making them look like a cross between the Michelin Man and samurai warriors. Fortunately the research was abandoned, not for ethical reasons, but the weapon would have been the size of a London bus and through having no directionality, was completely indescriminate!
Barry
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