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Yiangos
28-04-2009, 08:31
Hey guys

i know i've been away for more than 2 months but had to concentrate on my system :) Anyways,the thing plays real music now and thought i'd share with you some of my findings.Before i continue,for the first time,Murphy's law did not apply to me.Back in 20066,i bought a Pioneer PDP-506XDE plasma tv. I remember the pricing of 2 accessories which actually didn't purchase because didn't need them at the time.External loudspeakers (144 sterlings) and table base (132 sterlings).After taking your advise to relocate the system,i had to take the tv off the wall and place it on a table between the main loudspeakers
So,i went to the Pioneer dealer to purchase a table stand knowing it would be a miracle to find one for my 3 year old tv.Quess what.Not only they had one in stock but i got it for 36 sterlings !!! Anyway,back to our main subject.
So far i've repositioned the system and loudspeakers,cleaned all electrical contacts using caig pro-gold and/or kontak cleaner and replaced certain cables with others.The balanced vanDenHul mc-silver between the pre/power remained but the VDH "Revelation" speaker cables went back to the box and in its place i installed a balanced MAC Soundpipe Ultralite which curiously wasn't working the way i wanted it to with the "old" setup.Also,the VDH mc-silver between cd/pre amp went too and a balancedMAC ultrasilver took its place.I won't bore you with the rest since the most important cables are those between cd/pre/power and loudspeakers.What i did not install yet,is the turntable and phono stage which i will eventually,after everything else is in order.A broken cantilever is a bit expensive to replace,so,be patient lol
Next i will experiment with isolation components and some room acoustics panels.

DSJR
28-04-2009, 20:51
You're gonna hate me for saying this, but I wonder if you could acquire the taste of standard microphone cable instead of VDH, every model of which has a "sound" all its own..

Most standard cheapo mic cables (Belden 9272/8760 or Van Damme pro-patch cable are some I've tried lately) carefully soldered into half decent XLR and/or phono plugs do a great job, don't seem to have a sound at all and make most "audiophile" cables seem ever so "contrived," enhancing one aspect over all the others to my ears. The more sensibe and natural the performance of the system, the less need to alter the sound with non-standard bits of wire with gawd knows what characteristics.......

Yiangos
29-04-2009, 05:27
Hello Dave

Not gonna hate you for what you said,instead,i agree with you.MAC cables use Belden cable to construct their cable but let me add something that goes for both cable and equipment.Next September i'm gonna be 51 years old and got my own,first system at the age of 11 (Akai amp/tuner cassette plus loudspeakers and Goldring Lenco turntable arm cartridge),so,let's just say i've got almost 40 years of experience with hi-fi.When i first joined this forum(which is populated with the best ppl i've ever met in any forums i've been and trust me,i am a member in quite a few)i said i am no audiophile.Just a music lover with a taste for good equipment.The reason i said this is because whenever i setup a system,all i want is to sit back and enjoy music in THE WAY I WANT , not the way some weird reviewer wants.When i bought my previous system back in 1987,i stopped buing hi-fi magazines.In 1999-2000,i decided to get something better and started buing magazines again to see what's on the market and to my amazement,things got really different.No bad reviews,reviewers wouldn't actually make you understand how a certain piece of equioment sounds etc.Finally,now in 2009,i come to realise one of 3 things must be happening.1)Reviewers don't know squad.2)Reviewers/magazines get paid by the companies to write what they write.3)Everything advanced so much,to the point there is no such thing as really bad equipment anymore ! Personally,i believe it's a mixture of all three.I am not gonna start discussing the new wave tendencies from hi-fi companies towards more resolution and be dammned with musicality because it won't be a post anymore but rather a small magazine lol but let me finish by saying that it all comes down to synergy and personal preference.In my previous post,i've discarded a 2250.00 sterling per meter cable in my system with one that costs $139.00 simply because to my ears and taste sounds better.Make no mistake,the VDH mc-silver is a great cable but it wont work synergistically (if there is such a word) with the rest of my system.In this hobby,there allways gonna be something that is better from the one you've got. The question is,does one really need that better thing to sit back and enjoy his/her music? :)

DSJR
29-04-2009, 16:57
You're on the right lines I think, my friend... I can't afford expensive gear any more (I'm 52 and suffering...;)) so I've gone back to some gear I sold new to a friend's Dad back in 1974 and has been left to me when he sadly passed on. It sounds great, if more laid back in balance compared to the ATC 20ASL Pro monitors I was using before (and will need to sell on shortly).

I'm torn between two stools myself. One part of me wants the unvarnished truth as close to the mastering/cutting session as possible (as close as we consumers can get), but one thing I've learned in recent years is that truth hurts sometimes, a reason why so many posters here love vinyl so much more than CD, as the former does a lovely subtle blending job to make the music more coherant and the latter can give it over "warts and all" if the mastering engineer hasn't been sympathetic enough in his job.. The other part of me today, wantsd to sit down with a glass of favourite tipple and just savour the music coming out, getting most of the details but not having it analysed under a microscope. The CD-M2, croft or AVI preamp and bridged Crowns into BC2's does a wonderful job for me at the moment and, although I'd love some Spendor SP1's, good BC3's, SP100r's or Harbeth 40.1's (possibly the best of the 100 litre BBC inspired passive designs...) I'm happy to take my little stereo as it is and play around with cartridges, along with the decks and wireless (:() arms I've recently been given.

P.S. because I'm impoverished, I make most of my own cables and use the Beldens I mentioned earlier (the screening is different but they sound the same to me as the conductors look identical) and took a hint from comments on the Van Damme pro-patch cables when re-wiring the Dual 701 to the amp (I imagined the old Linn Ittok I butchered wasn't as good, but I really couldn't be sure as I soldered the new wires directly to the tabs where the arm wires were sldered, rather than 1" away on a different tab as before)...

Enjoy the music, whatever you play it through...

Yiangos
07-05-2009, 07:04
Hey guys ! Time for a "part 2" of my findings but before i continue,i'd like to tell Dave (DSJR) that i did try a microphone cable (an Italian made balanced 10m stereo cable i bought a few years ago to connect my av amp to my pre.The brand is Nokno and the sound with this cable is terrible !!!!) I couldn't resist the temptation and connected the turntable (sme 20.2/sme model V/Koetsu urushi sky blue/hovland mg2/e.a.r. 324). It took me almost the whole saturday to adjust the cartridge but i suppose if i was using my van Den Hul "black beauty" the whole procedure would be a snap.For those of you familiar with the sme arm adjustments and of "certain age" , try to place the stylus tip (which is hidden underneath the massive koetsu body and with next to no clearance between the body and a record)into the tiny hole with the cross on the sme protractor.The turntable sits on a Sound Organization rack (i found out when i first bought the sme that it actually sounds better on the sound organization rack than on my clearlight audio aspect rack)and the e.a.r. 324 on the top shelf of a rdc aspect rack.beneath the 324 i placed some rdc cones which in turn sit on a rdc platform.On top of the 324 i placed a VPI brick.
The sound ? I can only say it this way: OMG !!!
Regarding the whole system setup,in the past,i've noticed two things.First,i could never get my analoque setup play satisfactory when the digital played well and the opposite.
In a few words,whenever i got my cd player play well,the turntable produced rabish.The same goes whenever i got my turntable play well,the cd player made some awfull sounds.
Now,everything plays fantastically.Second,i allways preffered to listen to music having the system pass through my av system,which uses the Audyssey sound equailizer. The differences it made between equalized and un-equalized were profound.Now,whenever i press the "audyssey" on/off button,i have to concentrate to detect any differences.
Well,that's it for now.Watch for my next "follow up" on the next issue,errrrr post :lolsign:

DSJR
07-05-2009, 07:22
Sound Org tables?

Personally, I'd change the shelf, as it's rather flexible (well, ours were) and tuned to the fruitbox LP12 of the period...

There are mic cables and mic cables. I bought some quad style from Maplins and it was horrid. Some beautifully made cables from BlueJeans cable (very fair price too) sounded too soft and a bit "diffuse" to me, but the Belden 8760 and 9272 seem very good, although the treble is a bit "sat on" for an hour or two after making up.

hifi_dave
08-05-2009, 20:48
IMO, you can't simply damn or praise 'microphone cables' as a type, as there are literally thousands of different designs which all sound different, some good some bad. It is certainly true though that you can get excellent results from relatively inexpensive cable, you don't need to spend hundreds.

Yiangos
28-05-2009, 10:45
Hi everyone !

Okay,this is the last "my findings so far".I don't want to bore you to death, but first,i'd like to answer to DSJR and hifi dave.Regarding the sound org table.True,it is not the best around but i've found that my sme tt plays exactly the same wherever you place it. Mind you,i have the model 20.2 not the 10 which being suspension-less (model 10) probably would be sensitive as to where you place it.All of my other sensitive equipment (pre-amp cd player,phono stage) are on a clearlight audio rdc aspect rack. As for the microphone cables,remember,i am in Cyprus,can't find anything i want over here and i do not wish to purchase cables,no matter how cheap they are just to test them :) besides,if you remember,i said i have quite a few MAC cables.These are based on Belden cables and when i last compared them against other cables,i found them nearly perfect tonally but too forward sounding for my system and taste.
Anyway,let's cut to the chase.First-of-all,regarding my phono stage (e.a.r. 324).As i mentioned before,i have it on a rdc platform which sits on top of the top shelf of an rdc aspect rack.The 324 sits on rdc cones and top of it i have a vpi brick to add mass.In a few words,there is a vpi brick on top of my e.a.r. 324 ,rdc cones beneath it,it sits on a rdc platform which sits on the top shelf of an rdc aspect rack.After some exeprimenting i replaced the rdc cones with black diamond racing cones and bdr "the pits".They have exaclty the same sonic properties as the rdc cones but add some fuller and warmer sound to the equation.Also,out went the VDH mc-silver between the e.a.r. and the pre amplifier and in went a VDH mc-gold.The mc-silver compared to the gold is too bright and kinda "thin" to my ears,but worst of all, is too laid back sounding.
My next "experiment" will be to add some vibrapods underneath my cd player but i am not gonna comment on my findings.My conlusion is,no matter what you do to a cd player , after you listen to a good tt,everything else is hopeless lol

Spectral Morn
28-05-2009, 11:58
Hi everyone !

Okay,this is the last "my findings so far".I don't want to bore you to death, but first,i'd like to answer to DSJR and hifi dave.Regarding the sound org table.True,it is not the best around but i've found that my sme tt plays exactly the same wherever you place it. Mind you,i have the model 20.2 not the 10 which being suspension-less (model 10) probably would be sensitive as to where you place it.All of my other sensitive equipment (pre-amp cd player,phono stage) are on a clearlight audio rdc aspect rack. As for the microphone cables,remember,i am in Cyprus,can't find anything i want over here and i do not wish to purchase cables,no matter how cheap they are just to test them :) besides,if you remember,i said i have quite a few MAC cables.These are based on Belden cables and when i last compared them against other cables,i found them nearly perfect tonally but too forward sounding for my system and taste.
Anyway,let's cut to the chase.First-of-all,regarding my phono stage (e.a.r. 324).As i mentioned before,i have it on a rdc platform which sits on top of the top shelf of an rdc aspect rack.The 324 sits on rdc cones and top of it i have a vpi brick to add mass.In a few words,there is a vpi brick on top of my e.a.r. 324 ,rdc cones beneath it,it sits on a rdc platform which sits on the top shelf of an rdc aspect rack.After some exeprimenting i replaced the rdc cones with black diamond racing cones and bdr "the pits".They have exaclty the same sonic properties as the rdc cones but add some fuller and warmer sound to the equation.Also,out went the VDH mc-silver between the e.a.r. and the pre amplifier and in went a VDH mc-gold.The mc-silver compared to the gold is too bright and kinda "thin" to my ears,but worst of all, is too laid back sounding.
My next "experiment" will be to add some vibrapods underneath my cd player but i am not gonna comment on my findings.My conlusion is,no matter what you do to a cd player , after you listen to a good tt,everything else is hopeless lol

Hi Yiangos

Firstly you are not boring everyone....so keep the posting up in this thread or elsewhere. Never assume that your particular journey and how you get where you are going (and with what) is boring or not of value because it is/can be. You just don't know when or how a comment of yours may be of help to some one else.

The SME model 20 is IMHE not overly fussy about where it sits but I feel in the case of mine (a MK1) it likes to sit on a shelf made of granite, this shelf sitting in a Target wall shelf frame. I think while it is true that non-suspended decks probably benefit a lot from being on a wall shelf I would say that even suspended decks can and do benefit from such sitting. So if a solid wall is available I would stick your TT on it IMHO...things will be better. However if you have a concrete floor and an excellent audio table this might work just as well....but only if its a solid non-suspended floor.


Regards D S D L

Barry
28-05-2009, 14:51
..........

Most standard cheapo mic cables (Belden 9272/8760 or Van Damme pro-patch cable are some I've tried lately) carefully soldered into half decent XLR and/or phono plugs do a great job, don't seem to have a sound at all and make most "audiophile" cables seem ever so "contrived," enhancing one aspect over all the others to my ears. The more sensibe and natural the performance of the system, the less need to alter the sound with non-standard bits of wire with gawd knows what characteristics.......

As I have probably stated elsewhere in this forum, I have a deep suspicion of exotic designer cables and baulk at the prices being asked. I am also of the opinion that if changing 1 metre of cable makes such a difference, then there is something seriously wrong with either the substituted cable or with the system.

As such, I prefer to make up my own cables, and for these I have used: RS low noise miniature coaxial cable (367-280), Huber & Suhner RG58CU, RG59CU or RG174 coaxial cable, Amphenol 50 Ohm coaxial cable or Neumann 4-core microphone cable. I can recommend the Van Damme microphone cable, both single core and twin core versions.

Barry

chris@panteg
28-05-2009, 15:33
Hi Barry what do you think of the Van Damme ' i fitted a set prepared for my 1210 ' i am very impressed so far and cost 12.99 not bad at all ,one of the benefits as i hear it seems to be a less microphonic effect and less harsh or hardness to the sound.

Barry
28-05-2009, 16:01
Hi Barry what do you think of the Van Damme ' I fitted a set prepared for my 1210 ' I am very impressed so far and cost 12.99 not bad at all ,one of the benefits as I hear it seems to be a less microphonic effect and less harsh or hardness to the sound.

Hello Chris,

The Van Damme cables that I have in mind are the single core microphone cable with the black sheath, and the screened twisted pair cable with a blue sheath. Being designed as microphone cables, I would expect them to have good (that is low) microphony.

I don't easily hear the difference that various cables make unlike other listeners, and when I do it can usually be explained by the interaction of the cable capacitance with the amplifier input. Having said that, then of course if a particular cable is right for your ears then, it is right for you.

The Van Damme cables are well made and have conductors of good purity copper. They thus satisfy the requirements of an interconnect at a very sensible and reasonable price, unlike a lot of the designer stuff out there. Use Neutrix connectors and you won't go wrong. Rant over!

Barry

chris@panteg
28-05-2009, 16:37
Yes indeed ' the one i have is the twisted pair with blue sheath ' i don't think i will bother with any other cable now as i think they are mostly over hyped in price and sound.

The Grand Wazoo
28-05-2009, 17:35
One advantage I've found with mic cables is that they're generally pretty easy to work, but more importantly nice & flexible. This way they don't drag light and/or small components off your rack, like some of the overpriced hawsers on the market.

Rolling your own has got to be the way to go if you can make a reasonable stab at soldering.

Ali Tait
28-05-2009, 18:26
Definately.Buy some silver wire from WD or Hifi Collective and some teflon tubing from ebay.Terminate to the plugs of your choice for an excellent cable.Simples!

Yiangos
29-05-2009, 04:58
Hi Neil

Why do i get the impression you run out of dalek fotos? lol
I quess you are right,in a way,about wanting me to continue posting my findings.Someone
asomewhere,might benefit from them....hmmmmm Anyways,i do have a couple of wall shelf(sound org. lol No,i am not a big fan of sound org tables.I just know the dealer over here and got them almost half the retail price.Besides,he was the ONLY dealer of hi-fi racks at the time i bought them over here)and to be honest,i find it next to impossible to adjust the turntable when sitting on a wall shelf.not to mention playing records.I do not have the space to sit(drill) the wall shelf low enough.Lowest i can place it,is above the component that sits on top of any of the other racks and that is quite high.Also,i did try my sme on top of the rdc rack,and found it actually played worse than on a sound org one.I quess the sme prefers a solid surface and a non-wombling rack.

Spectral Morn
29-05-2009, 10:25
Hi Yiangos


I keep a nice large stash of Dalek related photos, so I can rotate my avatar fairly regularly....but in fairness finding nice new ones is becoming harder.

Wall shelves can indeed be a pain, to sight properly assuming your walls, height of your other audio racks allow this.

I used to set up all the turntables in the shop I worked in while on the wall shelf in the demo room (I knew they would be level) but I had to stand on a large empty speaker cable drum so that I was able to look down on the TT being worked on.:lolsign:

Keep up the good work on this thread, or any others you might want to start or contribute to.


Regards D S D L

Yiangos
04-06-2009, 09:37
Okay guys,here's the latest news and conclusions.My system plays really well now. I could go as far as to say it sounds magical,to my ears at least.What i've realised,i am sure you'll gonna ask me "what took you so long" lol,is that the only thing to blame,is software manufacurers !If a cd or lp is well recorded,everything sounds great,if it is not, everything sounds terrible.I quess,there is not much to do now other than accept the facts and sit down and enjoy some music.

hifi_dave
04-06-2009, 10:21
Hi Yiangos


I keep a nice large stash of Dalek related photos, so I can rotate my avatar fairly regularly....but in fairness finding nice new ones is becoming harder.

Wall shelves can indeed be a pain, to sight properly assuming your walls, height of your other audio racks allow this.

I used to set up all the turntables in the shop I worked in while on the wall shelf in the demo room (I knew they would be level) but I had to stand on a large empty speaker cable drum so that I was able to look down on the TT being worked on.:lolsign:

Keep up the good work on this thread, or any others you might want to start or contribute to.


Regards D S D L

'Cable drum' ??? you wouldn't be allowed to do that nowadays what with Elf n Safety.
:doh:

Spectral Morn
04-06-2009, 10:34
'Cable drum' ??? you wouldn't be allowed to do that nowadays what with Elf n Safety.
:doh:

As I was the shop manager it was on my head be it....:doh:if I fell. Nice carpeted floor and soft sofa so no harm would have happened. I tried a low step ladder once but I was to high up, so one really nice heavy wide cable drum (from the custom install side of things...about the only use custom install is/was;)as far as I am concerned. You want multi-room, have a system in each room...Simples) suited the work ideally. This was my practice up until I lost my job (made redundant last Sept)...I better tell myself off:lol::lol::lol:..oops to late!


Regards D S D L

Marco
04-06-2009, 10:36
Sorry to butt in here, but when are we hearing about your sessione with Stevie-boy? ;)

Marco.