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DAVEDWACK
25-02-2008, 14:21
http://i227.photobucket.com/albums/dd214/DAVEDWACK/IMG_0101.jpg

First effort!

DAVEDWACK
25-02-2008, 14:22
http://i227.photobucket.com/albums/dd214/DAVEDWACK/IMG_0102.jpg

2nd effort

DAVEDWACK
25-02-2008, 14:24
http://i227.photobucket.com/albums/dd214/DAVEDWACK/IMG_0103.jpg

3rd effort

Filterlab
25-02-2008, 14:25
Looks fantastic mate! :)

What Quads are those?

DAVEDWACK
25-02-2008, 14:25
http://i227.photobucket.com/albums/dd214/DAVEDWACK/IMG_0105.jpg

4th effort

DAVEDWACK
25-02-2008, 14:28
http://i227.photobucket.com/albums/dd214/DAVEDWACK/IMG_0108.jpg

last effort.....starting to get a bit cocky, better go make that coffee.:mental:

DAVEDWACK
25-02-2008, 14:31
Looks fantastic mate! :)

What Quads are those?

Well thanks, nice of you to say, they're 2989's and are good sounding in my fairly biggish room.

Cheers...Dave

Filterlab
25-02-2008, 14:35
Not heard of the 2989s before, they look like the ESL63s on heat. :)

Marco
25-02-2008, 15:54
Hi Dave,

Welcome to the forum :)

Wow, man, serious respect - what a great system!

It's obviously extremely well thought out. There's not a single component in there that I wouldn't use... In particular I love the TD-124, the Technics SL-10 (vastly underrated by those NOT in the know ;)), the Puresound, Norton PSU (the best there is for an LP12 by a country mile), the Quads, the Mana - feck it, I like it all! :youtheman:

Anyway, have fun.

Marco.

Vinyl Grinder
25-02-2008, 15:59
http://i227.photobucket.com/albums/dd214/DAVEDWACK/IMG_0103.jpg


Dave:
Is that one of those german lids you usually see on Thorens TD2001 deck, forget the manufacturer? If there still available can you put me on to them, these are the best lids ever....

Marco son: I remember you blasting me a while back about mana on my sideboard, why the change of tone? ;)

DAVEDWACK
25-02-2008, 17:30
Hi Dave,

Welcome to the forum :)

Wow, man, serious respect - what a great system!

It's obviously extremely well thought out. There's not a single component in there that I wouldn't use... In particular I love the TD-124, the Technics SL-10 (vastly underrated by those NOT in the know ;)), the Puresound, Norton PSU (the best there is for an LP12 by a country mile), the Quads, the Mana - feck it, I like it all! :youtheman:

Anyway, have fun.

Marco.

Hi Marco,

Well thanks very much for the welcome. I got quite carried away with the photos, I've never done it before, the result being that I have of course completely forgotten to itemise the stuff I listen to the music on/with.

So here goes then:

Linn LP12/Ittok/AT33PTG/Norton PS/Puresound P10/Stepnote Trannie

Thorens TD124-2/Origin Live Silver/ATOC9ml2/Local Slate Plinth

Technics SL10/AT312HEP

That's the 3 record players out the way then:

Sugden A21SE

Squeezebox with Zanash built PS in old Naim CB case/Zanash modded Behringer SRC2496

Panasonic DV575 also going into the Src2496

Quad 2989 and Sennheiser HD650's for using later on!

Sky+/Topfield HD recorder for the football and such...

Further info: I recently moved the telly from the cabinet onto the wall to be replaced by the 2 record players which were sat on 2 Mana Racks, recently sold.

Cheers...Dave

DAVEDWACK
25-02-2008, 17:47
Hi Andre,

No, I had the cover made by Stuart Frazer who I think trades as "The Frazer Co." I'm not sure if it's the same chap who posts on Pink Fish. Anyway I had it made about 4 years ago but if you'd like further details I'll do a bit of backtrackin'.

Cheers.........Dave

P.S. The Mana tables on the cabinet were the result of shall we say a "compromise" having sold the 2 racks which used to live in the corner of the room in the not too distant past.

Marco
25-02-2008, 17:47
Andre,

LOL. I didn't "blast" you about it - I just said that it wasn't necessarily the most effective use of Mana.

I said that it's better to have Mana supports installed from the ground up without any other interface in the way (and I stand by that), but obviously Dave finds the results satisfactory from applying it in this particular way. You should have achieved similar results but somehow didn't :confused:

Dave's set-up should actually make you think twice about the conclusion you reached... ;)

However I was going to mention to Dave that the oak cones (although protecting his furniture) won't be doing the Mana effect any good - it is a 'foreign' interface that will impede some of the Mana's intended effect.

His best plan, if he wanted, is to obtain a strip of plastic laminate from any D.I.Y shop (which is what is used to cover the MDF boards supplied with Soundstages, etc) cut a few squares off enough to cover the spikes and place those underneath his Soundframes instead of the oak cones. He should notice an improvement in the sound in terms of dynamic detail and clarity. The oak cones will serve to 'muddy' the sound in comparison. I know because I've been there!

Or maybe he just likes the look of the oak cones or he doesn't care, and if so, that's absolutely fine :)

Marco.

Filterlab
25-02-2008, 17:49
...I said that it's better to have Mana supports installed from the ground up without any other interface in the way...

Would you rest them on something solid or straight in the floorboards?

Marco
25-02-2008, 17:52
P.S. The Mana tables on the cabinet were the result of shall we say a "compromise" having sold the 2 racks which used to live in the corner of the room in the not too distant past.

Ah... Thanks, Dave. That explains everything :)

You might want to try what I suggested though.

More from me later on a very interesting system. You have definitely thought 'out of the box' with that one!

Marco.

Vinyl Grinder
25-02-2008, 17:54
Andre,

LOL. I didn't "blast" you about it - I just said that it wasn't necessarily the most effective use of Mana.

I said that it's better to have Mana supports installed from the ground up without any other interface in the way (and I stand by that), but obviously Dave finds the results satisfactory from applying it in this particular way. You should have achieved similar results but somehow didn't :confused:

Dave's set-up should actually make you think twice about the conclusion you reached... ;)

However I was going to mention to Dave that the oak cones (although protecting his furniture) won't be doing the Mana effect any good - it is a 'foreign' interface that will impede some of the Mana's intended effect.

His best plan, if he wanted, is to obtain a strip of plastic laminate from any D.I.Y shop (which is what is used to cover the MDF boards supplied with Soundstages, etc) cut a few squares off enough to cover the spikes and place those underneath his Soundframes instead of the oak cones. He should notice an improvement in the sound in terms of dynamic detail and clarity. The oak cones will serve to 'muddy' the sound in comparison. I know because I've been there!

Or maybe he just likes the look of the oak cones or he doesn't care, and if so, that's absolutely fine :)

Marco.

It's the Russ Andrews Oak spike boots that are making the Mana sound right :lol: All come apparent now;)

Vinyl Grinder
25-02-2008, 17:55
Hi Andre,

No, I had the cover made by Stuart Frazer who I think trades as "The Frazer Co." I'm not sure if it's the same chap who posts on Pink Fish. Anyway I had it made about 4 years ago but if you'd like further details I'll do a bit of backtrackin'.

Cheers.........Dave



Please Dave if you could, that's one nice lid.

Vinyl Grinder
25-02-2008, 18:04
This him dave:

http://thefrazerco.com/

Marco
25-02-2008, 18:05
Would you rest them on something solid or straight in the floorboards?

Straight into the floorboards is best, Rob - the more the spikes 'grip' the floor the better. And suspended wooden floors give a different type of effect to solid concrete ;)

The best way to see Mana is to think of it as a better 'floor' for your equipment to operate on: one that's more level and less susceptible to pass vibration on to your equipment. That's precisely what it's intended to do and it does it very effectively indeed.

Wooden furniture stores energy and vibrates like a drum - not good for a hi-fi system. But if a compromise ensures marital bliss for Dave then what price can you put on that? :)

Marco.

Marco
25-02-2008, 18:07
It's the Russ Andrews Oak spike boots that are making the Mana sound right :lol: All come apparent now;)


Aye, if that's what keeps you happy then who am I to spoil the illusion! :lolsign:

Marco.

Vinyl Grinder
25-02-2008, 18:10
Aye, if that's what keeps you happy then who am I to spoil the illusion! :lolsign:

Marco.

What i find with mana is it brigs out sharp edges within music, this is what i don't like about it..

Marco
25-02-2008, 18:12
I thought you said it made bugger all difference! Make up your mind :lol:

:scratch:

Marco.

DAVEDWACK
25-02-2008, 19:04
Ah... Thanks, Dave. That explains everything :)

You might want to try what I suggested though.

More from me later on a very interesting system. You have definitely thought 'out of the box' with that one!

Marco.

Hi again,

Did you spot the deliberate omissions? I think you young chaps call it "Old Fogeyism".....Apart from the Creek Headphone Amp on the cabinet I neglected to mention the Dynavector P100 Phono Pre-amp which of course is needed to drive the other 2 Record Players:scratch:

I used to have little squares of mdf underneath both the speakers and the Mana racks. From an aesthetic POV I got the RA cones with the idea of staining them to match the cabinet finish but never got around to it (it's not easy working 3 days a week ya know!).

Notwithstanding the fact that I accept the sound did suffer a little when the decks went onto the cabinet as opposed to being on the racks I must admit the choice of the RA cones was purely for the reasons mentioned above. Thinking about it they do look bloody butt ugly on that cabinet don't they?

Cheers...Dave

Vinyl Grinder
25-02-2008, 19:29
I thought you said it made bugger all difference! Make up your mind :lol:

:scratch:

Marco.

I'm insaine remember.Not easy for me..;)

Vinyl Grinder
25-02-2008, 19:58
Zanash built PS in old Naim CB case/Zanash modded Behringer SRC2496



Zanash as in Zero gain member! Whats he done to the Behringer sample rate unit? how are you using this Dave?

Vinyl Grinder
25-02-2008, 20:12
However I was going to mention to Dave that the oak cones (although protecting his furniture) won't be doing the Mana effect any good - it is a 'foreign' interface that will impede some of the Mana's intended effect.

His best plan, if he wanted, is to obtain a strip of plastic laminate from any D.I.Y shop (which is what is used to cover the MDF boards supplied with Soundstages, etc) cut a few squares off enough to cover the spikes and place those underneath his Soundframes instead of the oak cones. He should notice an improvement in the sound in terms of dynamic detail and clarity. The oak cones will serve to 'muddy' the sound in comparison. I know because I've been there!



Not true Marco, those Oak pods have a metal insert in the top, i see no gains getting rid of them, replacing them with the plastic stip it's only the same thing really as you have the oak side board still under the strip.There designed to do exactly what he's done.If Dave don't like the look michel do the same thing in aluminium.

http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj292/ELPFAN/oak.jpg

Marco
25-02-2008, 20:20
I'm insaine remember.Not easy for me


LOL, Andre - this I know!

Dave,


Did you spot the deliberate omissions?


Yep, I thought there were a couple of boxes you forgot to mention! :)

You've really got some fine bits of kit there. I rate the P100 very highly indeed. A couple of questions:

How does the P100 compare to the Puresound A10?

How does the SL-10 compare to, say, the LP12?


I used to have little squares of mdf underneath both the speakers and the Mana racks. From an aesthetic POV I got the RA cones with the idea of staining them to match the cabinet finish but never got around to it (it's not easy working 3 days a week ya know!).

Notwithstanding the fact that I accept the sound did suffer a little when the decks went onto the cabinet as opposed to being on the racks I must admit the choice of the RA cones was purely for the reasons mentioned above. Thinking about it they do look bloody butt ugly on that cabinet don't they?


They look ok, Dave, but trust me they're not doing the performance of your Soundframes any favours. Oak cones have their place, but not in conjunction with Mana.

I know Mana supports inside out, and I know the inventors intentions (John Watson). Mana was designed with a set of materials (veneered MDF/spikes/angle iron/glass) designed to interface together at certain points to create an effect (reduce microphony in equipment and act as a 'sink' for vibrational energy) and the introduction of oak cones will impede that effect and impose its own signature on proceedings, so if you want the Soundframes to do their job properly the cones need to be removed.

If you use small strips of plastic laminate instead they will still protect your furniture but be 'invisible' and, most importantly, allow your Soundframes to do their job properly.

Marco.

Marco
25-02-2008, 20:25
Not true Marco, those Oak pods have a metal insert in the top, i see no gains getting rid of them, replacing them with the plastic stip it's only the same thing really as you have the oak side board still under the strip.There designed to do exactly what he's done.If Dave don't like the look michel do the same thing in aluminium.


LOL. I'm not turning this thread into a Mana debate, dude. I know what I'm talking about.

Marco.

DAVEDWACK
25-02-2008, 20:30
Zanash as in Zero gain member! Whats he done to the Behringer sample rate unit? how are you using this Dave?

Hi again,

It's used purely as a Dac for both the CD/DVD player and the SB3. I've no real idea what he's done to it really, I should explain at this point that I have no technical expertise whatsoever to help me, just my lugs and they're getting on a bit now...except to say that it cost me about £60 on top of the £90 for the SRC2496 purchase price.He was introduced to me by a 3rd party as a result of me being interested in some cables. I was using a Benchmark DAC1/SB3 and Meridian 200/Benchmark DAC1 at the time. The improvement to the digital side of things wasn't just subtle when compared to the Benchmark, so much so that I felt no further need for either the DAC1 or indeed the CD200 so I sold them both , nothing at all wrong with either by the way, I just thought the modded SRC was so much more acceptable to me. Pete is a really nice guy by the way and not pushy in any way, though if you have experience of him from Zerogain then you'll be aware that he sometimes has a few problems expressing himself without getting a bit up-tight...IMHO of course.

Cheers....Dave

Vinyl Grinder
25-02-2008, 21:28
LOL. I'm not turning this thread into a Mana debate, dude. I know what I'm talking about.

Marco.

I know but you talking about surface mismatch.The metal insert in oak cones is only the same as your strip which is sat on an oak surface!! both on an oak surface..:doh:

Vinyl Grinder
25-02-2008, 21:34
Arguing with a Jehovah’s Witness springs to mind
:lolsign:

Gromit
25-02-2008, 22:08
Hi Dave,

Welcome to the forum :)

Wow, man, serious respect - what a great system!

It's obviously extremely well thought out. There's not a single component in there that I wouldn't use... In particular I love the TD-124, the Technics SL-10 (vastly underrated by those NOT in the know ;)), the Puresound, Norton PSU (the best there is for an LP12 by a country mile), the Quads, the Mana - feck it, I like it all! :youtheman:

Anyway, have fun.

Marco.

Pretty much exactly what I'd have said. :)

(having had a really good listen to a fully-Funked LP12 at the w/e I'm getting turntable-changing mutterings from the devil on my shoulder) ;)

Marco
25-02-2008, 22:12
I know but you talking about surface mismatch.The metal insert in oak cones is only the same as your strip which is sat on an oak surface!! both on an oak surface..:doh:


You're missing the point, Andre, but like I said I'm not turning this into a Mana debate! It's Dave's system pics thread, after all.


Arguing with a Jehovah’s Witness springs to mind


Exactly. I was thinking the exact same thing myself! :lol:

Marco.

Marco
25-02-2008, 22:15
Pretty much exactly what I'd have said. :)

(having had a really good listen to a fully-Funked LP12 at the w/e I'm getting turntable-changing mutterings from the devil on my shoulder) ;)


Pretty good isn't it?

Transforms the 'ol jalopy' into something quite special.

Marco.

DAVEDWACK
25-02-2008, 22:23
[QUOTE=Marco;2886]LOL, Andre - this I know!

How does the P100 compare to the Puresound A10?

Dunno not done the comparison as such, I've only had the Puresound for about 3 weeks but I'm really happy with the LP12/at33ptg which I've also only had for a week or so.
How does the SL-10 compare to, say, the LP12?

I half expected to be asked this.

Even before I bought the P10 and AT33PTG my 1-2-3 if you like was LP12-TD124-SL10 but I should qualify this by saying that 1-2 are in my opinion really close with the SL10 really not too far behind those 2. This was when the LP12 had A Denon DL110 on it and the SL10 went through a Cambridge 640P. My feeling is that in isolation I much prefer the LP12 as it currently stands. 5 minutes into an LP listening to JJ CAle/Neil Young/Nick Drake/Ben's Brother (sorry joke not got it on vinyl) and frankly it matters not a great deal which record player is being used.:). Yeh I know....why the bloody hell have I got 3 record players!

If you use small strips of plastic laminate instead they will still protect your furniture but be 'invisible' and, most importantly, allow your Soundframes to do their job properly.

Not too sure what you mean here...you got a picture? Do you mean like the plastic edging type stuff?

Cheers....Dave

Vinyl Grinder
25-02-2008, 22:36
Think mr Know it all means forminca edging.

Marco
25-02-2008, 22:59
Dave,

I mean the plastic laminate that Mana use to veneer the MDF boards used with Soundstages, etc. Did you have any Soundstages (added support levels) before with your racks? If so, you'll know what I mean. If you can't get the right stuff I'll pop a few bits that will fit under your spikes in an envelope and send it to you. All you need is just enough for the spikes to bite into. You won't even see them in place :)

The secret of getting the spike interface right in your circumstances is not to introduce metal or any other 'alien' material into the equation. With the oak cones the metal insert inside them that the spikes on your Soundframes sit into (together with the oak material itself after this) will introduce a signature that dilutes the effectiveness of the Soundframes.

It's important that the only interface the spikes 'see' is either the plastic laminate I've mentioned or the floor itself (wood or concrete), in circumstances where they're used as a support for power amplifiers or whatever. People in the past have used things like coins, Linn 'Skeets', and all sorts of stuff under spikes on Mana supports to protect floors or furniture, and all of them ruin the sound. Trust me, I've been there!

I asked about the SL-10 because I've read good things about it elsewhere, and because it's related to my beloved (modified) SL-1210. I also think that direct-drives do something special that belt-drives don't do :smoking:

I rate the AT-33PTG highly, and used one for a while. It's like an OC-9 with a bit more 'soul'. I liked what it did very much - nicely musical with a very clean, detailed top end, silky sounding midrange, and decent bass for an AT cartridge (always a slight failing of them in my opinion) but in the end I preferred the more 'funky' and 'valve-like' sound of the Denon DL-103 Pro. It has all the virtues of good analogue in spades, whereas the AT makes vinyl sound too 'clean' and CD-like, in my opinion.

I like the way you use a top-notch MM stage and a step-up tranny, though - definitely the best way to get most performance from a moving coil cartridge, despite what dear Richard (of NVA) says! ;)

Marco.

Marco
25-02-2008, 23:00
Think mr Know it all means forminca edging.

No he doesn't, and don't get cheeky, or I'll smack your botty ;)

Marco.

Vinyl Grinder
25-02-2008, 23:26
Well i'd like to know about this plastic laminate your on about if that's ok With Dave on his thread.I've a lot of experience with laminating board & materials..So whats it called? I was that board with the bit of Mana i had in the past i never really took no notice.It happen to be the same as what Rega decks are laminted in?

Marco
25-02-2008, 23:41
I don't know exactly what it's called, mate, but it's quite difficult to get hold of. Yep it's the stuff the board would have been laminated with on the bit of Mana you had before. To get Mana to work right you have to use it as it was originally designed, and that means sitting the spikes on one of the intended surfaces/interfaces.

Marco.

Vinyl Grinder
25-02-2008, 23:51
Yeh it's called 'DECAMEL' a cheap formica, used for easyness of production.

Here never a true word(S) spoken.Nice one tones who ever u are

http://www.zerogain.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-115.html

Goodnight.

DAVEDWACK
25-02-2008, 23:52
[QUOTE=Marco;2907]Dave,

If you can't get the right stuff I'll pop a few bits that will fit under your spikes in an envelope and send it to you. All you need is just enough for the spikes to bite into. You won't even see them in place :)

That's good enough for an idle sod like me Marco, I'll pm you the address and thanks so much.


I asked about the SL-10 because I've read good things about it elsewhere, and because it's related to my beloved (modified) SL-1210. I also think that direct-drives do something special that belt-drives don't do :smoking:


Not that I'm a fence sitter but....1 belt drive 1 belt/idler drive 1 Direct drive just about covers all bases...oh yeh and for mobile use I know somebody who can still get hold of the AT Soundburgers!:lolsign:

I rate the AT-33PTG highly, and used one for a while. It's like an OC-9 with a bit more 'soul'. I liked what it did very much - nicely musical with a very clean, detailed top end, silky sounding midrange, and decent bass for an AT cartridge (always a slight failing of them in my opinion) but in the end I preferred the more 'funky' and 'valve-like' sound of the Denon DL-103 Pro. It has all the virtues of good analogue in spades, whereas the AT makes vinyl sound too 'clean' and CD-like, in my opinion.

Rest assured the low output Denons were on my list but the AT was available at a really keen price and I did feel it might just go well with the Ittok.

Cheers.....Dave

Marco
25-02-2008, 23:59
That's good enough for an idle sod like me Marco, I'll pm you the address and thanks so much.


No problem, Dave :)

After we've done that I'll teach you how to use the quote facility! :lolsign:

;)

Marco.

P.S You're right, I can imagine an AT-33PTG working very well on an Ittok - nice balance of virtues there.

Marco
26-02-2008, 00:12
Yeh it's called 'DECAMEL' a cheap formica, used for easyness of production.


If that's what it's called, fine. All I know is it does the job.


Here never a true word(S) spoken.Nice one tones who ever u are

http://www.zerogain.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-115.html

Goodnight.


LOL. You're not running away in a huff are you? Just because someone else's (arguably well written) views on Mana tally with yours doesn't mean they are right. Remember you have very limited experience of it.

Tones is a somewhat 'famous' (or is that infamous) character where 'tweaky' hi-fi supports, cables, or things of that ilk are concerned. And yes he is often highly amusing. I like the guy. However, that most certainly does not make him an authority on all things Mana, or anything else he doesn't believe in for that matter :)

Marco.

DAVEDWACK
21-04-2010, 22:03
http://i227.photobucket.com/albums/dd214/DAVEDWACK/IMG_0101.jpg

First effort!
Well since it's been over 2 years and although I've still got the same speakers and the same 3 record players, there have been a few other changes so here's a more recent pitcher: