View Full Version : Dave's Starter Kit.
Hi All,
This is my first attempt to post pics of my set up. If it doesn't display properly please be gentle with me.:doh:
It obviously does not bear comparison with some of the kit that most of you guys seem to have but it's the best my budget can run to.
http://i664.photobucket.com/albums/vv4/DaveAndSue/DSCF1318.jpg, http://i664.photobucket.com/albums/vv4/DaveAndSue/DSCF1319.jpg.
I have attempted to put them so that they display the left side to the left and the right side to the right, so as to make a disjointed panorama - sorry about the TV picture but the Budget Controller is a keen fan of Countdown !!
The heart of my system is a Marantz PM6010OSE KI amp in the centre of the shelf under the TV. To it's right is a Marantz CD-63 mk II KI player and above which is a Sky HD box.
To the left of the amp, on the bottom is a Sony BD350 Blu-Ray player, above which is a Sony MM PC, a Vaio VGX-XL201. Despite the close proximity of everything I have never had any suggestion of anything overheating (so far !!). Note the precision centre support under the bottom centre of the wooden unit - the weight began to take it's toll so a 'prop' was installed.
The speakers are MS Mezzo 2s in oak. At the moment the speaker cable is a bi-wire set up cobbled together by me from an internet posting (saying they were as good as any much more expensive cable) from solid core Cat 6 ethernet cable (budget again !!). I have recently bought off eBay some QED Silver Anniversary cable and plan to swap them soon - opinions on whether I will notice any improvement would be welcome and I will let you know after swapping.
The Vaio and the CD player both communicate with the amp via solid silver interconnects from 'johnandchris' on eBay. At the moment the Blu-Ray player is coupled only to the TV, using the HDMI lead - it used to be optically connected to a Marantz SR4001 AV amp which in turn drove my SS speaker set but the SR4001 and SS system had to go to make room for the 6010OSE amp.
I would be happy to receive ANY comments, criticisms and suggestions about this set up, providing they are polite and intended to help me get the best out of what I have got. Of particular interest would be suggestions on what is/are the weak link(s) in the set up and how they might be strengthened without adding to the national debt too much.
I have around 2,000 FLAC files onthe PC and my next intention is to get a DAC to put upstream of the amp to see what can be improved. Again comments, advice and polite suggestions would be appreciated.
I look forward to hearing from you - a novice like me cannot get too much advice but I may not always be able or willing to follow it - please don't let this stop you from profering it!
Dave.:cool:
HI Dave
nice looking system with some good stuff within it - need to get those speakers off the floor though with a cheap set of stands or make something yourself. Get the tweeters to around ear height and you should hear some improvement I suspect- what are they morden short? I presume they are not intended to be that low (like klipsh heresy et al)
rgds
darren
There's no harm in having two self portraits in amongst the hifi pics, even though you look like you have constipation :lolsign:
To Darren,
Yes you are right about stands but my Budget Controller has some influence on what we put in our lounge and stands are an absolute 'no-no'. If you look carefully,under each of the (Mordaunt Short) speakers is a 2 inch thick piece of black granite (ex garden sunshade base !!) - my idea of an isolation plinth and a compromise with the Budget Controller.
To Puffin,
I suppose I should be flattered (at my age) to be thought similar to Jeff Stelling BUT I'M NOT !!! :lol:
Dave.
The Grand Wazoo
21-04-2009, 20:43
Yes, get the speakers up onto some sort of stands & try experimenting with the positioning if you can. This will make the sound a little brighter & focussed. Even a pair of small tables will do for now - you can work on her for the stands later! If not you may try tilting them up a bit, so they beam towards ear height when seated.
Even without intruding into the room too much, there appears to be enough room to pull them away from the rear wall. You'd be amazed at the difference you may hear from doing just this.
In particular, listen to the bass - I would expect to hear differences in both quality and quantity depending on the position in relation to the rear wall. As you move them out you will reach a point where the balance of the bass weight & bass definition seem most correct to you.
Put 2 pieces of tape on the floor at the corner of each speaker (say the front / inside corner) in an 'L' - shape to define the placement so you can find it again if you need it.
Now do the same excercise, but this time listen out for changes to the soundstage. You'll find that the soundstage becomes deeper, the further away the speakers are from the wall. However, there will probably be a position when the soundstage begins to lose its 'focus'. This is easier for you to spot, than it is for me to describe, but you will know what I mean when you hear it!!
Again you will then be able to identify the optimum spot for this perameter - mark this with more tape. You now have what I think of as the 2 'polar positions'. Somewhere on or between these two, will be the perfect spot - but you'll find that later.
Now, leaving the speakers in the last position, try adjusting the toe-in. This is the angle at which they present themselves to the room (& your ears). Start off by just facing them straight out into the room at 90 degrees to the rear wall. Now compare this to a situation where each box has it's axis crossing at a point just behind you head. The easiest way to do this is to place them so you can just see the faces of the inside walls of each cabinet (in the case of your 'boat-tailed' speakers, you need to be seeing equal portions of perhaps the front 1/5th of the cabinet walls
Now listen & compare the two sounds you're hearing. You should hear differences in the sharpness of the sound & also your ability to hear what the different instruments are doing will be affected. There may be a further change to the soundstage definition and width and it will affect the relative positions of the players upon it. If you then play about with the degrees of toe in you'll find one where it all seems to snap into place.
If you notice a slight loss of clarity with the toe-in, then try moving them slightly further apart.
Now go back to finding you optimum position between the polars.
That would be my first move - I promise you that your set up isn't giving you what it's capable of!
Spectral Morn
21-04-2009, 21:01
Great advice Chris.
Dave you have not heard your set up yet until you get those speakers of the floor. In my time in retail I had many a Budget Controller type conversation ;):lol: with customers.....
Tilt them up if nothing else and make sure the angle is the same...
Nice photo....
Don't knock your set up, we all are at different levels, but this forum is for everyone regardless of system size,complexity or cost.
Regards D S D L
aquapiranha
21-04-2009, 21:29
What about wall brackets for the speakers? not ideal I know but at least they will be up higher which imho is going to be the one weakpoint here. there is certainly nothing wrong with the Marantz of Kef kit, very nice balanced system there. Oh, and Hi!
The Grand Wazoo
21-04-2009, 21:54
There are speaker stands & there are speaker stands, you know. They don't have to look like an oil platform!
Just from a 5 minute Google session............http://www.whathifi.com/Review/Custom-rc60-Deluxe/
...........or you could conceal something under some tasteful fabric.
There are loads of options......but you really should get them off the floor!!!!!
Hi Chris and all other respondents for your encouraging advice. The custom speaker stands look good to me and MAY meet the approval of the Budget Controller but I could not find out any links or information on how or where to buy them or who makes them - can anyone help?
I have printed off your (Chris's) detailed instructions on moving the speakers around and assessing results - I'll let youi know if my cloth ears can decide on the best available position.
Next question: - given the shortcomings of my present set up would I be better not 'investing' in a DAC until I get the best from what I have? I spend a fair proportion of my listening time with my Senn HD280s in place as banishing the Controller to the conservatory is not an option every night, particularly in winter. I was attracted to the perceived benefits of the 7520 by it's secondary role as a headphone amp - opinions, advice, please.
Look forward to hearing from you ALL.
Dave.
The Grand Wazoo
21-04-2009, 22:48
Dave,
No-one has golden ears. You will hear what has been described.
There are plenty of manufacturers of such stands, that was just the first example I found.
Again a quick Gurgle search (this time about 30 seconds) gave me the manufacturer's website ...........http://www.curtains2blinds.net/page13.htm
They have stands in several types of timber: Ash, Beech & Oak and also a different style.
Happy to be of help.
Good luck
Chris
Thanks Chris,
Your Google must be better informed than my Google:lol: because I entered every combination of Custom, r60, speaker stands, all without success. I have now e-mailed the company and asked for a 'ball park' quote so that I can discuss with the Budget Controller. At the moment the tide is moving in my favour as the Controller has recently suggested that we need another (different or another the same) AV stand.
I'll keep you posted.
Dave.
Hi Dave,
I would concur with the advice given so far regarding stands. As good as the Beresford is, you need some proper speaker stands (which appease the aesthetic sensibilities of your good lady) much more than you do a new DAC!! The stands will literally transform your system.
So yes, I would make this your number 1 priority :)
Marco.
Hi Dave
I'm new here too, seems like a nice place to be and the wealth and breadth of members experience/knowledge is formidable so you can comfortably rely on the advice given so yes stands of any kind are better than no stands at all, why not let your good lady choose a set that suit her asthetics/sensibilities?
May I ask you how the gear is hooked up mains wise? Once you sort the stands out you may want to get a dedicated dizzy block before adding any more components, if you haven't already of course.
Regards
Ralph.
Hi Marco and Ralph (REM),
Thanks both for your two pen'orth. I am actively following up on the lead to the rc60 deluxe provided by Chris. They have already replied with a very attractive offer (to me !!) both in terms of price and customisation - looks like the plastic may get stretched even more!!.
Following on from all previous advise I have this morning temporarily raised the speakers up on to each end of the hi-fi (??) unit and already even my cloth ears notice and approve of the difference. If I press all the right 'notes' in the right order (a la Andrew Preview & Morecambe and Wise :lol:) there should be a pic of the current location below.
With regards to the mains wise hook up, at the moment each bit of kit is connected, via the lead supplied with it, to individual 3 pin outlets on a 'PC World' type surge protector. I am awaiting receipt of a Multiway Mains Plug - For DIY Naim Hydra Cable Lead from eBay and rewirable 'fig 8' and 'kettle' plugs which I plan to put together with some shielded mains cable, again probably off eBay - comments, advice and guidance appreciated.
"I'm new here too, seems like a nice place to be and the wealth and breadth of members experience/knowledge is formidable" - never was a truer word (phrase ?) spoken - hear, hear I say !!
http://i664.photobucket.com/albums/vv4/DaveAndSue/DSCF1323.jpg
BTW, please forgive the sample of new wall paper lodged under the picture in the upper left of this and the previous 'panorama' - Budget Controller is planning to redecorate !!:steam:
Dave.
Beechwoods
22-04-2009, 14:05
Excellent Dave! I think they look better off the floor too!
Ali Tait
22-04-2009, 18:58
Hi Dave,
Is it the Twisted Twins speaker cable from the TNT site? If so,yes it's a good design and will see off some expensive commercial designs.Much cheepniss too! For i/c's check out the Chris VenHaus site.
Hi Ali,
No it's not twisted (in any sense :)) and it's not knowingly from TNT whoever they are. It's 2 + 4 biwire (i.e. from 1 amp) and each consists of 3 lengths of 8 strand solid core Cat 6 ethernet cable ex-Maplins and the 3 lenths are plaited. They should be tidied up by covering with Maplin's shrink tube wrap (or whatever it's called) but I thought I try them out before finalising them. They are unterminated at both ends and screwed down. Two of the lengths carry the +ve and -ve (red and black), i.e. 16 strands to each of the lower frequency terminals, and the third length is split at each end, 4 solid colour strands carry the red, and 4 bi-colour strands carry the black, to the tweeter terminals (no jumpers). I MIGHT be able to retrace my steps back to the site from which I listed the design if anyone is interested.
Meanwhile, to me they sound fine, but I have little or nothing to compare them with.
Thanks for your interest,
Dave.
Ali Tait
22-04-2009, 20:57
Sounds like a watered down version of the twisted twins.Check out TNT Audio and look in the DIY section.The TT uses 6 lengths plaited on each channel.Regardless,it's a cheap and very good speaker cable.I used them for years and only changed when I got my electrostatic speakers as they don't like a capacitive cable.
Hi Guys,
Appro po (?) of nothing I offer below something that really surprised me but perhaps will not surprise you.
Earlier tonight I was sat with my nose glued to the monitor/tv, (actually about a foot away and NO, my nose is not that long) posting responses to all the threads that I have got running and thought that I would try listening to some music whilst I was doing it (see my latest photo showing temporary new speaker positions). The effect of all this was my ears were at tweeter level and the angle between speaker to head to speaker was around 179 degrees (or so). The speakers were pointing straight out, not at my head.
Irrespective of whatever music was being played the sound clearly came from straight in front of me, (behind the monitor/tv ??), slightly narrower sound stage (?) than the monitor/tv. Put another way, I could not detect any sound at any point which appeared to emanate from the speakers - strange or what ??
Any explanations ??
Dave.:mental::confused:
aquapiranha
22-04-2009, 22:38
It is called Stereo.... joking aside, quality equipment will dissapear leaving only a vista of musical lovelyness before you.
The Grand Wazoo
22-04-2009, 22:41
You've just discovered the miracle of stereo!!!!!!!!!!!!
'In The Head Audio' - try it with a Pink Floyd album. You might hate the music, & it might lead you to drug abuse, but it's really................int...er...esting
Attn. Steve and Chris,
Thank God !!!!! I was hoping that I hadn't accidentally dicovered my 'sweet spot'.:lolsign:
Dave.
Spectral Morn
23-04-2009, 09:44
This is what I love about this forum and sharing about audio...people having eureka moments and it all becoming clear..... What you heard Dave was your system for the first time, properly, and its ability to present a 3d image in space which has no obvious source; i.e the speakers. Welcome to the club.:)
Regards D S D L
Ali Tait
23-04-2009, 16:50
Yes it's great when that happens.For me it's better with statics than any other speakers I've heard.I love that "In your head" sound and the speakers disappear. :)
To the Grand Wazoo: -
Hi Neil,:)
Ashamed to say that I was a bit 'sniffy' at your mention of Pink Floyd - not my sort of music - and then the thought occurred (penny dropped ?) that I am now hearing nice new things in the music that I do like it is perhaps more than possible that I will notice a similar effect when listening to Pink Floyd etc. - might give it a try - thanks.
Dave.
To Ali Tait: -
Hi Ali,:)
Thanks for your input. Sorry to be a 'thicko' but can I ask you to define 'statics' in this context for me please - I'm new here.
Cheers,
Dave.
The Grand Wazoo
23-04-2009, 20:09
To the Grand Wazoo: -
Hi Neil,:)
Ashamed to say that I was a bit 'sniffy' at your mention of Pink Floyd - not my sort of music - and then the thought occurred (penny dropped ?) that I am now hearing nice new things in the music that I do like it is perhaps more than possible that I will notice a similar effect when listening to Pink Floyd etc. - might give it a try - thanks.
Dave.
It's Chris actually, but I don't mind what you call me!!!!!
No, I'd gathered from your other posts that Pink Floyd might not be your thing - but, as you say, you never know!
It's just that there are some Pink Floyd albums that particularly suit listening to the hi-fi with your head beween the speakers like that - particularly 'The Final Cut' where the effect is truly incredible (also if your in the mood for it - 'The Pro's & Cons of Hitchhiking' by Roger Waters). Nick (Beechwoods) is a particular fan of Pink Floyd, so if you ask him he might recommend something to you to try out if you fancy it. Actually there are plenty of similarities in their work with Jean Michelle Jarre, who you apparently like.
There's nothing like a good sounding hi-fi for open your ears to new musical experiences.
Cheers
Neil
err Chris!!!
I find JMJ a little "twee" in his earlier works, although Equinox side 2 is good until the final track... I prefer something to tax the old bass cones like Redshift - you can't beat them old Moog Modulars............
Ali Tait
23-04-2009, 21:13
Hi Dave,
I was referring to my speakers,which are electrostatics,like Quad 57's.No speaker images like a good static to my ears.
Hi Dave,
I'm not a big bass fan myself, irrespective of the artist or composer. Don't misunderstand me, music isn't music without a bass line but it should blend (be in it's proper place and volume), not dominate everything else, IMO.
I have just let a pair of top end Sony headphones go on fleabay for a little less than what I paid because they were too 'bassy', maybe my own fault because they were aimed at the DJ market, where it sounds to me that you cannot have too much bass :).
Dave.
Dave
might be worth you having a look on a couple of the other HIFI fora - the hifiwigwam has a good freebies section and things often come up on zerogain and PFM for the cost of postage - people in this hobby are very generous and often give things away
http://www.pinkfishmedia.net/forum/showthread.php?t=62029
not sure if these wilol be too big but there will defo be others come along if you are patient and don;t have much budget
the one thing I wouldn't do is buy new on equipment stands as they cost a lot new and fetch very little second hand
rgds
darren
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