PDA

View Full Version : System Synergy



Spectral Morn
16-04-2009, 22:22
Hi Guys


A few days ago a loud popping sound intermittently appeared on the right channel of my system. I felt the culprit was most likely the Balanced Audio Technology (BAT) VK75 power amplifier. Last year it developed a problem on the right channel which manifested itself as intermittent crackling. I assumed it was the same problem or similar so after swapping valves etc and still getting the problem I pulled the amp out and installed my Music Reference RM200 amplifier from my upstairs set up. Sound was very good but not as good as the BAT amp. And then POP, the odd sound turned up again still on the right channel. It was the BAT VK31se pre-amplifier....ummmm, a valve most likely. Very reluctantly I powered it down to start the process of swapping valves to see which one it was. As it turned out the culprit seemed obvious and perhaps it was dirt rather than a faulty tube, but I replaced it anyway. Now I used the word reluctantly earlier, when I was going to have to power the pre down. It takes about a week to come back to a full level of sound quality (theres that warm up thing again).

So with the BAT pre off (giving an opportunity to take photos of its insides link http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=1795&page=6 post57 )I decided to have a play around with some of the other kit I have. I thought and on paper it seemed a logical choice to put an EAR 864 pre on the end of the RM200 amplifier. This wonderful design from the USA by Roger A. Modjeski(http://www.ramlabs-musicreference.com/) is a 100 watt KT88 fully balanced design with a solid state input stage. I wired the pre and power up using Atlas Marvos xlr to xlr and I also wired the Moon Andromeda to the pre via the same type of cable. As the EAR is wired for the European XLR configuration and the RM200 for the American I switched phase on the Moon CD player so that phase would be correct when it reached the speakers.

MUSIC REFERENCE RM200
http://i549.photobucket.com/albums/ii364/davros124/LondonSept07Hi-FiShowandHomehi-f-6.jpg

Well what should have sounded good didn't, in fact it pretty much sounded like some one had poured syrup into the speakers. The sound was warm cuddly and soft...very soft. Marco and Dave (DSJR) predicted that this might be the case with badly matched EAR kit, during comments made on another thread...well done guys, you were right. The EAR is a very good valve pre and it sits to the just warmer side of neutral. It should have matched the RM200 well as it has a fairly clean and neutral sound, just sitting on the fence, neither warm nor cool. However it didn't, now this could be a mismatch in the specs (not phase I hasten to add) perhaps the fact the EAR is not a fully balanced design might be to blame but for whatever reason the pairing was very poor.

EAR 864 PRE-AMPLIFIER
http://i549.photobucket.com/albums/ii364/davros124/SystemSynergy003.jpg

This got me thinking about the Elephant in the room that rarely gets discussed anywhere, be it on forums or in the printed or on-line audio press...and that is the art of system matching or SYSTEM SYNERGY.

What exactly is it ? How does one insure that a set up is fully matched ? Is it a question of matching by specs alone ? Tonal balance...a bit of warm with cool etc ? Must you try kit to see if it will match or can it be done just by looking at the measurements ? Will a one brand setup work better than a mixture ? Or is it a mixture of all of the above ?
We must also not forget the room, size, acoustics, materials the room is made of, degree of liveness etc. Oh yes and type of music to be listened to. All of the above can make or break a good set up.

It bugs me when people think they can do this by putting What Hi-Fi 5 star kit together or and worse IMHO when a retailer does this (and they do exist). There is also the process of putting a system together by going on a dealers recommendation...something I always refused to do, because all of the above listed questions would have to be answered before I could even hope to make a start on putting a starter demo system together.

My placing the EAR and RM200 together was a failure, I assumed it would work...almost the first rule in this hobby is never make assumptions....there are way to many variables.
Anyway I remembered that the EAR pre and a pair of Audio Innovations Series 1000 mk 3 amplifiers had sounded very well in my down stairs set up when I tried this pairing a few years ago. I brought down the amplifiers and wired it all up with a mixture of rca to rca Atlas Marvos and Xlr to Xlr of the same. I let the system cook for about half an hour and see if there would be synergy. There was....relief all round.

MY LISTENING ROOM
http://i549.photobucket.com/albums/ii364/davros124/SystemSynergy001.jpg

BIRDS EYE VIEW OF SYSTEM
http://i549.photobucket.com/albums/ii364/davros124/SystemSynergy005.jpg

The Audio Innovations amplifiers are 50 watt class A designs using ECC 83 and ECC82 driver valves with EL34's normally fitted, I had replaced those with Tung-Sol new reissue 5881's a military spec and more reliable EL34 derivative.

AUDIO INNOVATIONS SERIES 1000 MK3 MONO BLOCK AMPLIFIER
http://i549.photobucket.com/albums/ii364/davros124/SystemSynergy.jpg

CLOSE UP OF TUNG-SOL NEW REISSUE 5881 VALVES
http://i549.photobucket.com/albums/ii364/davros124/SystemSynergy007.jpg

The sound was excellent punchy, rhythmical and very musical. The overall tone was just to the right side of warm, detail and the sound stage was very good but not it must be said as good as my BAT VK31se pre or BAT VK75 power amp or even with the RM200 power amplifier. The BAT and Music Reference amplification allow more detail and insight into the micro and macro elements of the music. They reveal much more than the EAR and AI about these important nuances. However the sound was still very good and I must confess a few years ago I would have been very content with a sound like this , but not now. The other gear gets me much further along the road than the EAR and AI combination. It should be mentioned that the EAR pre at about £1700 and the S/H cost of a set of mk 3 Series 1000 Audio Innovations amps being about £800 plus, is a lot more affordable that the BAT combinations combined price.

http://i549.photobucket.com/albums/ii364/davros124/SystemSynergy004.jpg

The synergy of these combinations lead to the results heard and when it was wrong it was very obviously wrong (though I suppose someone might have thought it was good). What I urge you all to do is question your assumptions and never take as read that anyones opinion is worth more than your own experience in your room. You must try everything.

The reason I am placing this item in the general discussion section and not Strokes of Genius is that I want to start a discussion about synergy and what you guys feel about it. What your experiences have been when it has been right and wrong, and maybe we could establish a list of items and circumstances that really don't belong together based on a consensus of experience backed opinion. This will be of help to all but particularly those new to audio or just plain confused.


Regards D S D L

Mike Reed
17-04-2009, 11:13
Getting the ball into play on this thread, I'd like to relate the episode last Wednesday when a chap brought round an Art Audio Vinyl One phono stage for me to audition/buy.

Although time was too short to investigate and cogitate on all the connection possibilities, this thing simply didn't do its thing through my 552 pre-amp. Sure, sounded OK, but lacklustre. This was the seller's opinion as well!

Tried it directly through the E.A.R. 509s (as this V1 had mm, mc and a volume pot) and it was worse. Much worse. Unacceptably flaccid, underpowered and anaemic. We were of one opinion in this.

Causes:- Impedance (600 ohms V1 probably) with Koetsu Black's preferred 100? Unlikely
Sensitivity of V1 (unknown but between 0.2 and 0.5 mv, surely)
to the 600 microvolts output of my Black? Unlikely
Wrong use of outputs one and two on the V1 (no instructions)
where active pres. and direct to power are catered for?
Possibly, as the seller's experience (of the mm facility) was
that neither output made an appreciable difference.

I was previously convinced that this phono stage would relegate my Prefix, and so it should. I guess this is not strictly 'synergy' as I feel it's more to do with specs. and ineptitude, but I intend to discuss this with the designer/manufacturer shortly, and shall report accordingly.

Spectral Morn
17-04-2009, 14:32
Hi Mike


The Art Audio Vinyl one is a very highly regarded and reviewed item ( However that does not guarantee system compatibility)...I should add I have never heard one, but I suspect a couple of possible explanations for the failure to work right. None of which, by the way may be correct I am after all guessing.

(1)The unit does not have enough gain to drive the input of your pre, which in its self is a bit odd (assuming the volume was turned fully up. I suspect one output was at full fixed gain and the other wired via the volume control thus giving variable gain) and therefore your 509's ability to supply enough voltage to drive your Pro-acs was compromised.

(2) The fact you were using an rca to din adapter (?) might also undermine the performance. Naim kit can I believe (please correct me if I am wrong) be fussy about not being hooked up with Dins....something to do with the star earthing element of the Naim design so DIN to DIN sounds better.

(3) The phono stage was set wrongly to suit the cartridge. I agree that this is unlikely if it was a volume/driving issue which I suspect it was. But loading a cart wrong can result in what you describe just there would be plenty of volume but with poor sound.

(4) Impedance/resistance mismatch with the input of the Naim pre.

(5) The ability of your 509's to drive the Pro-acs properly is reliant on plenty of gain given to the pre. In the case of the Art One not enough was present to do this therefore the fine line between good drive and poor was crossed. Was the bass poor-soft and lacking control ? If so it was a lack of proper drive.

Poor show that a dealer wasted your time and his by not knowing all there is to know about the product he was going to demo. However in fairness when Naim is part of the equation it does/can make things potentially more awkward IMHO.


Regards D S D L

John
17-04-2009, 14:52
It goes to show its always best to try something out in your system first

Sand Dancin Donkey Walker
17-04-2009, 16:28
Hi Neil

Noticed in your photo's of the inside of the BAT you have the Herbie's Valve Dampers, great little tweeks these, are the best of the bunch as far as I am concerned, have used them quite a bit but keep forgetting to remove them before I sold a couple of amps on. Not got them on my current power amp but when finances are better there will be a full set for the Pre and Power valves.

Andy - SDDW

P.S. As far as system synergy is concerned it does exist. Get it wrong and even the best gear will sound poor, get it correct and some what could be described as lower end gear can perform way about their fighting weight.

Ali Tait
17-04-2009, 17:10
It may just be a simple matter of impedance mismatch between the components.IMHO a lot of people dismiss kit for just this reason,without investigating further and trying a buffer etc.Not that I'm getting at anyone,just making a general statement! :)

Spectral Morn
17-04-2009, 17:31
Hi Neil

Noticed in your photo's of the inside of the BAT you have the Herbie's Valve Dampers, great little tweeks these, are the best of the bunch as far as I am concerned, have used them quite a bit but keep forgetting to remove them before I sold a couple of amps on. Not got them on my current power amp but when finances are better there will be a full set for the Pre and Power valves.

Andy - SDDW

P.S. As far as system synergy is concerned it does exist. Get it wrong and even the best gear will sound poor, get it correct and some what could be described as lower end gear can perform way about their fighting weight.

Hi Andy

Got the dampers from a friend. Hes selling on some mono amps and didn't want them so I nicked them out of the amps. I haven't tried them yet just fitted them. I normally use Tube Rings which I think are very good but maybe these are better we will see.

I agree with your PS.


Ali

You may be right. Suggestion 4 of mine is about your point. And I agree about getting it matched up right either from the get go or with a buffer. However It would be better to match things right from the start...I am not a big fan of putting the signal through to many connections.


Regards D S D L

hifi_dave
17-04-2009, 18:31
Neil,
I don't think a dealer can be blamed for not knowing how a product (in this case the Vinyl One) would sound in a strange system. I do think dealers can be blamed for not knowing how equipment will sound in their own dem room and, unfortunately, some don't have a clue.:doh:

I have always spent hours and hours playing around with all sorts of combinations to make sure I know how it all sounds. Imagine how embarassing it would be talking about equipment you know nothing about.:scratch:

As for the Vinyl One, I had one here to try and it performed much like the description and that was into all sorts of amps, pre's and power. I would imagine that it's a lot better into it's matching Art amps.

Spectral Morn
17-04-2009, 18:38
Neil,
I don't think a dealer can be blamed for not knowing how a product (in this case the Vinyl One) would sound in a strange system. I do think dealers can be blamed for not knowing how equipment will sound in their own dem room and, unfortunately, some don't have a clue.:doh:

I have always spent hours and hours playing around with all sorts of combinations to make sure I know how it all sounds. Imagine how embarassing it would be talking about equipment you know nothing about.:scratch:

As for the Vinyl One, I had one here to try and it performed much like the description and that was into all sorts of amps, pre's and power. I would imagine that it's a lot better into it's matching Art amps.


Hi Dave

My comment was more the fact he didn't, from Mike's comment, seem to know how it operated.

I agree it is hard to know how everything will match with each other. This is why I took as much kit as I could home, and tried it in familiar circumstances, also in the shops dem room too with other kit we had on show. However with Naim I always approached with extreme caution and quite often passed on the hassle. Matching their CDP's into other kit was okay but amps .......RUN and FASTTTTTTTT.


Regards D S D L

Mike Reed
17-04-2009, 19:45
NEIL, DAVE, et al,

I did say 'seller'., not 'dealer'. It was to be a private sale, so no culpability can be attached to any dealers (not even the unpleasant one who sent me a different cable to the one advertised which was also totally unfit for purpose (see 'Back on the Bottle' thread starter)).

I was wrong in my assumption; the two outputs are paralleled, so the problem lies elsewhere.

Tom Willis of Art Audio, whom I spoke to today, concluded that it was a gain thing, as you have mentioned, Neil. However, he wasn't familiar with the Koetsu, so wasn't sure how a mismatch on impedance would manifest itself, IF there was one. Still wouldn't account for lack of gain, esp. into the 509s; more likely to be a tonal consequence.

He wondered whether the seller had specified a lower output (normally 2v ish) for some reason when having it specified on ordering. Seems most V1s are bespoke.

Shall communicate with the seller to see if he remembers. Just possible, I suppose that his dealer assumed he would use the m.c. for his VdH Frog high-output cart.....no, that doesn't make sense either.

As Dave said, the V1 is not only versatile, it has been and is used into many a high-end Naim system to very good effect.

The designer/manufacturer was puzzled, too. Some vindication, perhaps?

Spectral Morn
17-04-2009, 20:48
The VDH Frog is a great cart ( I have a Frog Gold) and not that fussy relatively speaking. Even the standard version does not require masses of gain unlike say a Lyra. I don't remember Koetsu being that fussy but it is 17 years since I had any contact with one (I preferred Kiseki...to Koetsu back then)

Sorry Mike you said chap and when the word audition was used I assumed dealer ohpppps ! Anyway Dave and my comments are still valuable just for a different context....the vagueness of the typed word.

Interesting mystery....I wonder does anyone have an answer ?



Regards D S D L

hifi_dave
17-04-2009, 20:49
Mike,
Have you tried any of the EAR phono stages, the 88PB or 324 ? I've never had any matching issues with these. Another good one is the Tron Seven, well worth a listen.

Spectral Morn
17-04-2009, 20:52
Mike,
Have you tried any of the EAR phono stages, the 88PB or 324 ? I've never had any matching issues with these. Another good one is the Tron Seven, well worth a listen.

All of those are very good. The Tron is also available in a simpler version made for Noteworthy Audio by Tron. Its called The Phonote.

http://www.noteworthyaudio.co.uk/phonote_front_angle.jpg

http://www.noteworthyaudio.co.uk/note_products_phonote_rear.jpg

Link to Noteworthy Audio http://www.noteworthyaudio.co.uk/PhonoStages.html


Regards D S D L

hifi_dave
17-04-2009, 20:52
Neil,
It's pedant time. I think you have your i and e reversed. It is Kiseki.:eyebrows:

Not sure why I used that smiley, other than I haven't had the opportunity before.:)

Spectral Morn
17-04-2009, 20:59
Hi Dave


Quite possibly....yours looks right :lol:



Regards D S D L

PS Smilies are fun......http://i549.photobucket.com/albums/ii364/davros124/The_Daleks_by_Anji_was_here-edit.gif

hifi_dave
17-04-2009, 21:07
Neil,
You're just showing off with those pics now.:lolsign:

Mike Reed
17-04-2009, 21:28
Neil,
It's pedant time. I think you have your i and e reversed. It is Kiseki.:eyebrows:

He says Kiseki, you say Kiseki!!!! This is unilateral pedantry (the best kind), and the rule is 'it's e before i except in Kiseki'.

Yep, Dave; am quite sure I'd find a top Tron very agreeable, but these are a bit of a rarity on the second-hand market.

You are in the enviable position to compare Superline (not the low-gain, unfortunately, I guess) with the Tron into Naim amplification.

Notwithstanding SL power supply, I do wonder how the two shape up in presentation and other salient aspects.

Spectral Morn
17-04-2009, 21:42
http://i549.photobucket.com/albums/ii364/davros124/dalek-8.gif"correct spelling is irrelevant" :lolsign:






Regards D S D L

hifi_dave
17-04-2009, 21:50
Hi Mike,
The Tron Seven is nowhere near the 'top Tron', it's their 'budget' model.:) The top Tron has so many zero's in the price that it makes Gordon Brown's bank bail out look cheap. :lolsign: It's bloody good though.

As for the low gain Superline. I have just ordered a new demo model and enquired if it should be low or normal gain, as I really only use Lyra, ZYX or Koetsu. I was advised by Naim to go for the normal version.:scratch:

hifi_dave
17-04-2009, 21:51
Bloody heck - moving Daleks.

Whatever next ? :lolsign:

DSJR
17-04-2009, 21:53
To DL Supreme -

My listening is impared, I cannot hear.............................................. .

Spectral Morn
17-04-2009, 21:59
:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol: :lol::lol::lol:



Regards D S D L...http://i549.photobucket.com/albums/ii364/davros124/dalek-6.gif

Mike Reed
18-04-2009, 10:59
"correct spelling is irrelevant" :
Regards D S D L

Don't you mean 'irrevalent'? Amen


DAVE Very interesting, but Naim (Stephen Hopkin) told me last year that the 600 microvolts of the Koetsus would probably push the boundaries of the (standard) SL. Even the Lyras' 500 would be fully loading it. I gathered from what he'd said that the SL was designed primarily for gain and its flexibility in the overload area would be curtailed at the low sensitivity end (i.e. 0.5 mv). He did say that the Prefix would be better in this department, and I feel even THAT is pushed!

Main reason why I haven't auditioned one!

The low-gain SL SHOULD be all things to all carts., accommodating 0.2 mv to 1 mv. Hell of a range,(though I don't know why, when I've only come across one mc cart throwing out 0.8mv; one or two with 0.7 and others down from there). I'm slightly sceptical, as compromises mean losses somewhere, like the s/n ratio, e.g., which loses out against the standard SL.

Would be very interested in your findings with Koetsu (Black or Red?) when you get the std. SL. If you have a Urushi or Platinum, of course, you're looking at lower outputs.

Re. E.A.R. phono stages, Dave, I've read many reports of them being MUCH more subdued than my 509s ('laid back', 'lacking in dynamics', etc.) which is not encouraging for me. Shouldn't rely on hearsay, I know, but you've gotta start somewhere, as there are just too many phono stages out there.

hifi_dave
18-04-2009, 13:19
Mike,
No, don't rely on hearsay, they are not that way at all. All three are truly excellent and totally practical.

As for the Superline, I never had any trouble with my demo one using Lyra, ZYX and Koetsu. Now I've sold it, the customer is a very happy bunny and he has a ZYX R100. Make of that what you will.:scratch: I guess the overload is a touch higher than the specs would suggest and is not a problem in practice.As I said, their main man on the road told me I need the standard but I will query him again.

sastusbulbas
18-04-2009, 13:41
Synergy, a superb term and illusive concept for many, hence the amount of box swapping on many a forum in my opinion :)

I myself found it can be a trial and error thing, and unless you are able to spend some time and have a helpful dealer it usually is not as easy as people assume. And of course moving location can have a different listening environment throw it completely off.

My own system took some time, and could still probably use a few tweeks, but what surprised me was that my choices were not what my individual tastes and preferences were for at that time, I didn't like Theta, I thought a more expensive power amp was the better option but it turned out a cheaper model offered a better match, and made one sidetrack which improved one area and was detrimental in another.

Theta/Krell/Kef :) And Audio Research fits well in the pre section, my Gyro/SME/Rohmann combination had enough of that clean nuetral sound to not distract and contrast too much with my CD side, with my choice of valve phono's keeping in line with vinyl's traits.

Funny enough it is one area where I found myself in agreement with a certain magazines reviews regarding the above synergy which often seemed to raise it's head when such brands were reviewed.

Shame I get no time to use my main system these days :(

Spectral Morn
18-04-2009, 15:47
Synergy, a superb term and illusive concept for many, hence the amount of box swapping on many a forum in my opinion :)

I myself found it can be a trial and error thing, and unless you are able to spend some time and have a helpful dealer it usually is not as easy as people assume. And of course moving location can have a different listening environment throw it completely off.

My own system took some time, and could still probably use a few tweeks, but what surprised me was that my choices were not what my individual tastes and preferences were for at that time, I didn't like Theta, I thought a more expensive power amp was the better option but it turned out a cheaper model offered a better match, and made one sidetrack which improved one area and was detrimental in another.

Theta/Krell/Kef :) And Audio Research fits well in the pre section, my Gyro/SME/Rohmann combination had enough of that clean nuetral sound to not distract and contrast too much with my CD side, with my choice of valve phono's keeping in line with vinyl's traits.

Funny enough it is one area where I found myself in agreement with a certain magazines reviews regarding the above synergy which often seemed to raise it's head when such brands were reviewed.

Shame I get no time to use my main system these days :(

Hi and welcome back....

Thanks for the contribution. Sorry to hear you don't get to use this very fine set up very much. Tis a pity when this happens after getting married and the house was being done up I had to go with out for just about a year, boy I missed it.

I would love to see you put some photos in the Gallery section of your current set up sastusbulbas.

Isn't it great when you get a combination that works...that gels in away perhaps you weren't expecting....magic happens.


Regards D S D L

Sand Dancin Donkey Walker
19-04-2009, 16:53
The term System Synergy is an expression I use when my kit just all gels together and works as a whole, and not in some instances as individual items (that may over power or disguise other aspects of the system).

Now whether that is because the kit is matched from an electrical characteristic point of view or be it from it’s inherent sonic sound of the separate bits that comprise the whole system. On some occasions I may have some of the bits of the equation right and on others different aspects. What is harder to achieve is getting it all right at the same time, when that happens, well you just know.

The term as many others used to describe audio sound means different things to different people at different times of their lives. That’s just my take, hope you followed my thoughts, because I’m not too sure I did :).

Andy - SDDW

The Grand Wazoo
20-04-2009, 00:09
OK folks, so here's an idea that might take off & maybe increase our individual & collective knowledge of the dark art of system synergy.

What do we think of the idea of hosting some very small scale regional meets where 3 or 4 folks turn up at a designated venue for an evening - realistically, someone's gaff. They should bring 2 items of hi-fi gear each. The idea is a mix 'n' match session where we try various combinations of kit out & try to find the best synergies between the various bits of kit on offer. This could be really interesting & could throw up some amazing possibilities for all of us.

Obviously, there'd have to be some agreement beforehand as to what people could bring - no good everyone turning up with CD players!

What would make it really interesting is if some folks could take 1 item they think is a right dog - we might find out that paired with the right kit, it's not so bad after all!!

How about it?

Spectral Morn
20-04-2009, 00:19
If I lived on the mainland I would be up for this....great idea. I myself, over the last few days have been trying some combinations of kit I have not tried before...with some interesting results, I will say more soon anon.


Regards D S L

hifi_dave
21-04-2009, 10:51
Mike,
Had a chat with Naim today re your reservations about using the standard Superline with higher o/p MC's and they have confirmed my findings. Namely (see what I did there ?), that a Lyra, Koetsu or ZYX are just fine into the standard model and will not overload. This is what I found after using the Superline for several months without trouble.

I asked what the low gain model is for and got a bit of a blank, other than there is a Clearaudio cartridge with an o/p of around 0.7 mV and certain vintage cartridges which they couldn't name. Apparently, the lower gain was requested by a large distributor as a special.

For all MC's you are likely to encounter, the standard version is the one.:gig:

Mike Reed
21-04-2009, 20:00
Thank you, DAVE for that. Very encouraging indeed, but I wonder why Naim gave me that spiel sometime last year.

As the Black/Red Koetsu range is about as high an output as I am ever likely to encounter in other carts. I've got my eye on, I really must give the std. SL the time of day.

I do like an upgrade path, esp. in power supplies.

hifi_dave
22-04-2009, 08:56
Mike,
I have no idea but my rep questioned the designer and also Steve Hopkins in case he had anything to add and the perceived wisdom was as stated above. What I don't understand is why introduce the low gain version when it's application is so limited ? :scratch:

Anyway, I'll continue to use the standard with my demo Lyra's, ZYX and Ortofon's.