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keeper
05-04-2009, 13:09
So Guys

Whats the better option?

1/ Both same length with spare coiled up some where?

2/ Cut to correct length?

If I cut I will have one length of 5 metres and one 3 meters.

Cheers Phil

DSJR
05-04-2009, 16:07
With a proper HiFi grade cable (and I don't mean the crummy QED Micro sold by the tens of kilometres by many Sevenoaks stores), a 3m and 5m length wioll be fine. The only proviso is with Naim amps, but even then, we sold lengths like this (often with Chord Odyssey twin) with no stability issues.

My own system has something like 4m and 6m lengths (I laid the cables under the carpet and cut them where they exit near the speakers, I've been through all this bullpoo).

Seriously, as long as the speakers aren't a stupid load like Apogee and some ML speakers are, then you'll have no problem. Just make sure the wire is of good gauge and that you use decent terminations. Moving the speakers a few inches each way will make a 1000x more difference IMO.

keeper
05-04-2009, 16:24
Cheers Thanks

Spectral Morn
05-04-2009, 16:37
So Guys

Whats the better option?

1/ Both same length with spare coiled up some where?

2/ Cut to correct length?

If I cut I will have one length of 5 metres and one 3 meters.

Cheers Phil

Hi Phil

I would keep both lengths the same. I would not coil the extra, but wrap it between your elbow and hand and tie, but not tightly in the middle. If you coil a cable you can create an induction loop and that can cause issues(not particularly serious, unless the cable is very long or as Dave says your amps are Naim)with the amplifier/and mess up the sound.

The reason you should keep the cables the same length is down to timing issues. I believe that if the signal arrives at one speaker sooner than the other, or later depending on your view, it can mess up subtlety of timing and image positioning. That has been my experience anyway.

5m cables are okay and should cause no issues. My own cables are 7m long, which other than cost, my cables are Atlas Marvos, causes no problems(bearing in mind the cost here you can see I take cables being the same length seriously. If not, I could have saved my self a fair bit of cash by having one 2m shorter) However once you go over this length issues can arise. You can put extra strain on amplifiers that have not got particularly good current/driving capability, if you use crazy lengths of cable that may its self be hard to get current down. If using long lengths of cable check the spec of the cable for capacitance and resistance and pick the one that has the easiest spec to get voltage down.

The cables should be very good quality and if you can I would see if your dealer will let you try at home. Different cables sound different.

One thing Phil you don't say what kit you have. What is it? I might be able to suggest cables to try if I knew

Dave is right about positioning of the speakers. If this is wrong you will not hear what better cables can do in your set up. Attention to set up details or failure to do so can't be compensated for by buying dear cables or kit. The quality is in the set up. A cheaper system well matched will outperform a dearer well matched system if it is not well SET UP. IMHO/E


Regards D S D L

DSJR
05-04-2009, 16:45
I think the signal travells down a cable a few million times faster than sound DL. Seriously, someone did a study on it once and apparently 2mm movement backward or forward of one of the speakers accounted for miles of cable in terms of "timing" errors.

It was purely 'cos Naim amps were prone to (almost) ringing and having inapropriate lengths of wires upset them - honest! I was there at the time ;) Room acoustics will totally swamp most of these things anyway.

Just make sure the gauge of wire is more than sufficient for the task, that's all.

Back in the day, we dared to try odd lengths of Naim A5 cable on our demo setup and couldn't hear one iota of difference as long as the shortest length was 3m as recommended by Naim, who used to use 11m lengths in their huge, once echoey dem room.

Spectral Morn
05-04-2009, 16:51
Hi Dave

I think we should agree to differ on this one.;) I have heard the effects of a few meters in length. A little bits neither here nor there but meters, thats a different thing.

I agree about positioning of speakers as I said above, but not that one cable being significantly shorter than an other is okay. I'll leave it there.


It was my early experiences with a set of Pro-ac super Tabletes in a small room as near field mini monitors showed things like this up. This was 20 years ago but the experiences taught me that everything makes a difference and attention to detail would make or break the sound. Nothing to date as shown those early years experiences to be in error.....SO FAR.

Regards D S D L

keeper
05-04-2009, 18:32
Hi Guys

The set up is
Focal 806 speakers
Sugden A21 series 2 Amp
Creek Classic CD
Chord crimson interconnects
Chord carnival silverscreen speaker cable


I would take 180cm off the length.

Cheers Phil

Ali Tait
05-04-2009, 19:44
Well seeing as electrical signals travel down cables at near the speed of light,I have to say you are doing bloody well if you can hear a difference in timing with one channel's cable being a couple of meters longer!

hifi_dave
05-04-2009, 19:56
Phil,
As you already have the cable, I would suggest you just bundle (not roll) it up and hide it out of the way. You might just hear the difference in lengths but, more importantly, you might want to move the system one day and need equal lengths. Or you might want to sell your cable one day. You never know.:doh:

Barry
05-04-2009, 23:55
I think the signal travells down a cable a few million times faster than sound DL. Seriously, someone did a study on it once and apparently 2mm movement backward or forward of one of the speakers accounted for miles of cable in terms of "timing" errors.

2 metres of cable will create an additional electrical delay of 10ns (0.01us) at most. A 2mm change in the position of the speaker will cause an acoustic delay of about 6us. The electrical delay is therefore utterly insignificant.

Having dissimilar lengths of cable may have some audible effect for two reasons. Depending on the resistance per unit length of the cable used, the variation in impedance with frequency of the speaker, as seen by the amplifier will change, and will differ for differing cable lengths in the two channels. Also the resistance of the cable effectively appears in series with the output impedance of the amplifier, so reducing the damping factor. Different cable lengths in the two channels will mean that the control of the loudspeaker by the amplifier will not be the same for each channel. It strongly depends on the speakers, cable and amplifier used. These effects may go some way in explaining the effects that Neil hears.

The change in channel balance due to resistive power loss in the cables will be quite negligable.

If you do decide to keep both speaker cables the same length, then as has been already been said, don't coil up the surplus length, rather arrange it as a loose 'zig- zag'.

In my own case the two cable lengths are roughly 17m and 8m respectively for the left and right hand channels and I have not found any problems.

The Grand Wazoo
06-04-2009, 07:57
This was discussed a while back in a thread started by Howard:
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=1026

.........and here's what I said...........


It's all about your ear collecting the information & your brain processing it. Now I'm a strong believer in the power of the brain to perform 'error correction' to a greater or lesser extent.

I often heard it said in relation to speakers with not much deep bass that your brain makes up for what you don't hear. I used to think that was a load of old tosh - now I'm not so sure. Of course the brain can't put the physical thump in your chest that a big speaker can, but maybe it can make you think you heard it.

Now if that's the case, then why shouldn't your brain be able to correct things like imbalances in stereo information like different lengths of cables.

If you need convincing of the power of your brain to process information and apply error correction just like a CD player then you need to read the following paragraph which staggered me & started me thinking about all this stuff..............

The phaonmneal pweor of the hmuan mind.

Aoccdrnig to rscheearch at Cmabrigde Uinervtisy, it deosn't mttaer in waht oredr the ltteers in a wrod are, the olny iprmoatnt tihng is taht the frist and lsat ltteer be in the rghit pclae.

The rset can be a taotl mses and you can sitll raed it wouthit a porbelm.

Tihs is bcuseae the huamn mnid deos not raed ervey lteter by istlef, it lokos at the wrod as a wlohe and tehn rletaes it to the ohetr wodrs nxet to it.


.............see what I mean?

There has to be something in this don't you think?
Maybe the Dalek needs a new error correction chip?!!!

Spectral Morn
06-04-2009, 09:14
2 metres of cable will create an additional electrical delay of 10ns (0.01us) at most. A 2mm change in the position of the speaker will cause an acoustic delay of about 6us. The electrical delay is therefore utterly insignificant.

Having dissimilar lengths of cable may have some audible effect for two reasons. Depending on the resistance per unit length of the cable used, the variation in impedance with frequency of the speaker, as seen by the amplifier will change, and will differ for differing cable lengths in the two channels. Also the resistance of the cable effectively appears in series with the output impedance of the amplifier, so reducing the damping factor. Different cable lengths in the two channels will mean that the control of the loudspeaker by the amplifier will not be the same for each channel. It strongly depends on the speakers, cable and amplifier used. These effects may go some way in explaining the effects that Neil hears.

The change in channel balance due to resistive power loss in the cables will be quite negligable.

If you do decide to keep both speaker cables the same length, then as has been already been said, don't coil up the surplus length, rather arrange it as a loose 'zig- zag'.

In my own case the two cable lengths are roughly 17m and 8m respectively for the left and right hand channels and I have not found any problems.

Hi Barry

What a gentleman....you are sceptical but not rude in how you express your thoughts. Boy this is a refreshing change from other places...where one would be burnt at the stake. Also for you to try to offer a reason why I have heard what I have heard...thank you. I can't offer explanations for why I just know that I have heard effects/issues which exist with unequal lengths of cable and not when the cables are equal.


The Grand Wazoo This was discussed a while back in a thread started by Howard:
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=1026

.........and here's what I said...........

Quote:
It's all about your ear collecting the information & your brain processing it. Now I'm a strong believer in the power of the brain to perform 'error correction' to a greater or lesser extent.

I often heard it said in relation to speakers with not much deep bass that your brain makes up for what you don't hear. I used to think that was a load of old tosh - now I'm not so sure. Of course the brain can't put the physical thump in your chest that a big speaker can, but maybe it can make you think you heard it.

Now if that's the case, then why shouldn't your brain be able to correct things like imbalances in stereo information like different lengths of cables.

If you need convincing of the power of your brain to process information and apply error correction just like a CD player then you need to read the following paragraph which staggered me & started me thinking about all this stuff..............

The phaonmneal pweor of the hmuan mind.

Aoccdrnig to rscheearch at Cmabrigde Uinervtisy, it deosn't mttaer in waht oredr the ltteers in a wrod are, the olny iprmoatnt tihng is taht the frist and lsat ltteer be in the rghit pclae.

The rset can be a taotl mses and you can sitll raed it wouthit a porbelm.

Tihs is bcuseae the huamn mnid deos not raed ervey lteter by istlef, it lokos at the wrod as a wlohe and tehn rletaes it to the ohetr wodrs nxet to it.


.............see what I mean?


There has to be something in this don't you think?
Maybe the Dalek needs a new error correction chip?!!!
Today 12:55 AM
barry.d.hunt
Quote:



Hi Chris

The human brain is certainly capable of very great leaps in various areas. There may be something in what you say and what Howard wrote about. However why take the chance, its safer to opt for both cable lengths to be the same. Any odd things occurring are then not as a result of unequal cables.

I am confident of what I have heard, but I have an open mind and if and when I have my perceptions challenged and changed I will let AOS know.

Error correction chip......"Daleks are never in ERROR WE ARE THE SUPREME BEINGSSSSSSSSSSSSSS......EXTERMINATE." said with voice rising to a scream http://i549.photobucket.com/albums/ii364/davros124/daleks-1.gif :lolsign:

Regards D S D L

The Grand Wazoo
06-04-2009, 09:26
Sorry Neil,
You'll have to excuse my slightly flippant response - it wasn't intended that way (but I guess you know by now, that I'm like that!!).


The human brain is certainly capable of very great leaps in various areas. There may be something in what you say and what Howard wrote about. However why take the chance, its safer to opt for both cable lengths to be the same. Any odd things occurring are then not as a result of unequal cables.

I am confident of what I have heard, but I have an open mind and if and when I have my perceptions challenged and changed I will let AOS know.

Of course, you're absolutely correct - if you can hear it, you should take steps to correct it. I can't hear it so I choose to save the cash!
Maybe with another system, or room, or other cables I might hear it.

Cheers - (Viva la difference?)

Spectral Morn
06-04-2009, 09:31
Hi Chris

I would have you no other way. I forgot to add a :lolsign: to the post.



Regards D S D L:)

Ali Tait
06-04-2009, 19:53
Hi Neil,
I hope my post didn't cause any offence,it certainly wasn't meant that way.My apologies if it did so.
I don't doubt you hear what you hear.I am interested however,in exactly what it is you're hearing,and why! :)
Barry's cogent reply makes a great deal of sense.Neil,have you experienced this on several different systems?

keeper
06-04-2009, 20:07
As its only £6 a meter I took the chance just to see.
I can't tell any difference.

Thanks for the input, at least it was all valid unlike some forums.

Now,

Should I dump the glass shelves for a home brew MDF with Acrylic supports??

A little project for the weekend to see if it helps..

Cheers Phil

Spectral Morn
06-04-2009, 20:46
As its only £6 a meter I took the chance just to see.
I can't tell any difference.

Thanks for the input, at least it was all valid unlike some forums.

Now,

Should I dump the glass shelves for a home brew MDF with Acrylic supports??

A little project for the weekend to see if it helps..

Cheers Phil

In a word YES. However what you could do is use RDC cones under your gear. This would remove the effect of the glass and keep the look of your table intact. Theres nothing wrong with a wee DIY project though so have a play and see how you go. If its a success maybe you might like to share your design and those inclined can try too. If you do post it in Strokes of Genius.

Regards D S D L

Spectral Morn
06-04-2009, 21:46
Hi Neil,
I hope my post didn't cause any offence,it certainly wasn't meant that way.My apologies if it did so.
I don't doubt you hear what you hear.I am interested however,in exactly what it is you're hearing,and why! :)
Barry's cogent reply makes a great deal of sense.Neil,have you experienced this on several different systems?

Hi Ali

No offence taken at all.

The opinion I have was based on experiences gained with one room and a few variations on the system I had in it. The room was very small and far from ideal. However I learnt as much as I could about the room and over time I matched room and system so they were like one.

The system was an Audio Innovations Series 500..25 watt class A valve amp, speakers Pro-ac Super Tablets, Marantz Cd 94 mk2, Speaker cable was 5m pair of Xlo type 6 and interconnects Deltec Black Slink gortex 1 m.

Any time I did anything odd/new to the system I could hear it, it was very transparent to changes even very subtle ones. The Pro-acs had/have pin point imaging and set up of them was ultra critical. If cables with one shorter run was used there would be a slight shift in the image in favour of the speaker with the shorter cable. It was obvious. Now maybe with speakers that are not quite so pin-point in their imaging or in a bigger room this may not have been quite so obvious. However I do seem to be sensitive to changes in the spatial relationship of sound in a stereo image. I can hear quite easily if a speaker is not set right as the image will sound distorted, elements more forward than they should be, the imaging will sound twisted. If the cables are not the same length, a similar effect happens in my experience.

I must be honest, and say that as I always use or recommend cables the same length I have not really played around with this in other set ups. I always feel it is best to start of with a level playing field, and in my case one of those leveling elements is having the cable lengths the same. I know cost can be an issue, and saving money is great; but in this case I just would not try it. My Atlas Marvos cable is very dear and I use 7m pairs...I could have got way with 2 M's less for the left speaker.

Its a question of logic really, and logically based on past experience it just seems better/ideal that the cables should be the same length. I can't offer measurements to validate my opinion. I just don't see why adding another variable to system set up should be done..its a risk I don't like or want to take. One thing my early system showed me is that every element of system set up is vital,and critical. The attention to small and large details will make things a total success or less so if you fail on a small point and cable length to me is a fundamentally large point.


Regards D S D L

Marco
07-04-2009, 05:11
Well, hi-fi theories are all well and good about why such-and-such should have an effect or not, but the proof of the pudding is always in the listening! :)

Although I haven't heard a difference with this myself, I agree with Neil's testing methodology. If nothing else, having equal lengths of cable removes the "What if?" factor with regard to any sonic variation between channels and gives one piece of mind knowing that this particular variable is out of the equation.

Marco.

Barry
07-04-2009, 20:20
First of all Neil thanks for the kind words. Yes, I am sceptical about some aspects of this hobby of ours. I suppose it’s due to my physics background and having worked in electronics research for the last 30 years. I like to think of myself as being sufficiently open minded, that if there is some explanation of some particular effect, tenuous though it maybe, I am inclined to give those are certain they can hear it the benefit of the doubt even though I cannot hear it myself. That is why I used the qualifying ‘may’ in the post. There are several reported audio ‘phenomena’ that I am extremely sceptical about: cable directionality; bi-wiring; the use of fancy (and expensive) interconnects, especially mains cables; and the use of fancy shelving systems, however I would not criticise those who feel that these items make important differences to their system – it’s their ears and it’s their money. Again in all of these cases, there are some theoretical reasons why these phenomena may (that word again) have some substance, even though I think they are small.

There is a lot we don’t understand about how we perceive sound - how the brain interprets the signals from the ears. Psychoacoustics is in relative infancy and we are still learning.

I believe your methodology to be sound: start with a level playing field, make one change and see (a) if you can hear any difference, (b) if you can, is it an improvement and (c) is the improvement maintained. I would also suggest that the human hearing is easily fooled by expectations. There have been a number of occasions where I have made a change and thought ‘that’s better’. A few days or a week later I have reversed the change and again thought things were better, so it turned out that what I thought was an ‘improvement’ was not genuine after all.

Finally one of the reasons why I joined the Art of Sound forum, is I liked the way people could hold different opinions and discuss them without the rancour and sarcasm that I have observed happening on other fora. What you seem to have here is acceptance and agreement to differ, if neither side can be persuaded by argument - with some friendly banter and gentle ‘leg pulling’. I hope it continues. We can all learn from one another.

Barry

break-3
07-04-2009, 20:34
How very eloquently put, Barry. Personally I've always used equal-length cables because I don't want to take the chance that I might experience problems with the sound (and because I like symmetry). ;)

Spectral Morn
07-04-2009, 20:37
Finally one of the reasons why I joined the Art of Sound forum, is I liked the way people could hold different opinions and discuss them without the rancour and sarcasm that I have observed happening on other fora. What you seem to have here is acceptance and agreement to differ, if neither side can be persuaded by argument - with some friendly banter and gentle ‘leg pulling’. I hope it continues. We can all learn from one another. Barry





Hi Barry

Yes indeed, its why I came here in November last year. These qualities were immediately obvious and you could have a relationship with the team behind the forum. Real people who care, and involve themselves with what goes on here, and who don't stand aloof from everyone else.

We can agree and disagree without being petty, argumentative ( just for the fun of it, as some do elsewhere) The Art of Sound is a place where you can learn/share and have a laugh at the same time. I like your approach to things including that you offer qualifications and how you write. We probably wont agree all the time, but the world would be a dull place if everyone thought the same.

Don't worry the admin and Mod team including myself, wont let AOS become like other forums (or should that be Collosseums). Our guiding idea is that this is an Oasis.....not a blood soaked battle field.


Regards D S D L