View Full Version : Technics SL1210 with Paul Hynes power supply.
Recently I got in touch with Paul Hynes to ask if he had a power supply module that would work with the 1210. Well he had, and he has sent me one to try out. It's a sophisticated regulated 21V supply (see pic) and I'm comparing it with the diy LM317 regulated supply that I've been using, that I described here:http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=1237
The following are just my initial impressions on making the comparison. I've actually been using the PH supply for the last week or so to burn it in, and when I reverted to the 317 the most obvious difference was in the treble, which now sounded somewhat detached. With the PH supply the treble had more clarity and definition, cymbals sounded more believable, there was a sense of instruments being more integrated in the surrounding acoustic space. With the 317 supply I was somewhat more aware of surface noises whereas with the PH supply I was more drawn in to the musicality of the performance and so was less likely to notice little ticks and pops.
I had been expecting to hear differences in the bass range but that hasn't been apparent. My sense so far is that the PH supply is ahead in the subtle area of 'musicality', which is so difficult to analyse. I'll listen some more and post again soon.
Discs used so far were 'Dedicato' - Antonio Forcione on Naim, 'Sanfona' - Egberto Gismonti & Academia de Dancas on ECM, and 'Private City' - John Surman, also ECM.
Ammonite Audio
05-04-2009, 14:28
As a frequent and very satisfied user of Paul Hynes' power supplies, I am pleased, but not surprised, to read that you have found this one to be musically beneficial over the LM317 supply (The LM317 and its variants are pretty limited devices, after all). I did have a Hynes 21v PSU on order for the Technics, but decided to have it made up as 23.4v for my Kenwood DD deck instead, as the SL-1210 was not exactly flicking my switch, even with the Time Step PSU. The supply regulation circuit in the Kenwood is, if anything, even cruder than the one in the SL-1210, so Paul's PSU should add quite a bit of extra magic to an already accomplished musical performer. Your experience almost encourages me to phone Paul and order one for the Technics after all!
Perhaps we need a Jap DD AOS bake-off? Actually Richard Dunn has already suggested this, so maybe we should all make it happen? Various Technics v Pioneers v Kenwoods would make an interesting match.
Nice one!
The guy designs the best psu/ regulation I've come across, I'd certainly have his stuff in all my gear if I could:)
Using his shunt regs to upgrade my dac brought quite a big improvement so I'd imagine they would work wonders in any phono stage too
Dave Cawley
05-04-2009, 14:51
Actually LM317's come in different flavours, the best ones, used in the right circuit, with the right layout, using the right copper tracks fed from the right transformer; can be one of the most dynamic and low noise PSU's there are. And it's all about design and measurement, even a seemingly simple PSU needs careful design and measurement.
Put a 317 in a cheap application circuit and use a made in China device, and they are total rubbish!
Regards
Dave
Perhaps we need a Jap DD AOS bake-off? Actually Richard Dunn has already suggested this, so maybe we should all make it happen? Various Technics v Pioneers v Kenwoods would make an interesting match.
Bring it on! I'm well up for that. We'd need to sort out a venue, though. I don't mind travelling as I suspect most of you chaps are miles away from me :)
Marco.
LM1086 tend to be better than most 317, theres also LT317, LT1086.
Theres a variety of versions from Onsemi, NSC, ST,LT
Some are better than others and obviously performance difference will vary on application.
And it's all about design and measurement, even a seemingly simple PSU needs careful design and measurement.
I take your point Dave. Obviously I am comparing a professionally made psu with something I have put together myself without the benefit of a lot of test equipment, and of course the pro device should do better.
To get the playing field as level as I can, I'll try running the 317 off the same transformer, Schottky diodes and reservoir capacitor as the Paul Hynes supply. But I admit, I'll still be comparing a professional supply with an amateur one.
The 317 I'm using is an ST Microelectronics LM317T, by the way.
Ammonite Audio
05-04-2009, 16:36
Actually LM317's come in different flavours, the best ones, used in the right circuit, with the right layout, using the right copper tracks fed from the right transformer; can be one of the most dynamic and low noise PSU's there are. And it's all about design and measurement, even a seemingly simple PSU needs careful design and measurement.
Put a 317 in a cheap application circuit and use a made in China device, and they are total rubbish!
Regards
Dave
Paul Hynes once gave me a thorough technical explanation of the inherent limitations of LM317 type regulators, which I'll ask him to repeat here.
Bring it on! I'm well up for that. We'd need to sort out a venue, though. I don't mind travelling as I suspect most of you chaps are miles away from me
Marco.
It would require a bit of planning, eg the same partnering equipment, where possible. Does Richard Dunn lurk here? If so, he might be interested in providing some NVA gear, which would be acceptable to pretty much everyone.
Dave Cawley
05-04-2009, 16:38
Hi John
Yes, I understand. Like Paul, I have been making power supplies for over 25 years. I just wanted to say that all 317 PSU's are not remotely equal.
As I have said before, equipment is often more than the sum of its parts if designed properly. And less than the sum of its parts if not designed properly.
Enjoy Paul's PSU and I trust that members will likewise enjoy my 317 PSU too.
Almost any PSU is a great improvement over the internal one. All the intermod goes away and assuming the transformer is removed, moving coil cartridges won't have their magnetic field distorted by the lump of old iron.
Regards
Dave
Ammonite Audio
05-04-2009, 16:43
................assuming the transformer is removed, moving coil cartridges won't have their magnetic field distorted by the lump of old iron.
Regards
Dave
I left the transformer in place in my SL-1210, but now I understand why your installation instructions recommend taking it out!
Bring it on! I'm well up for that. We'd need to sort out a venue, though. I don't mind travelling as I suspect most of you chaps are miles away from me :)
Marco.
Yes I'd be up for a Jap DD fest, dont forget the Denon UFO boys! It would be good to compare various DL103's too. :eyebrows:
Indeed. I'd love to hear your spaceship - you gotta hear the 'SA', too! :)
I could also bring the HA-500 and let you compare it to the A23.
Marco.
I've done a bit more listening, this time with both power supplies being fed from the same transformer/Schottky diode/reservoir cap combination.
First disc was CPE Bach, Sonatas for Flute and Fortepiano. Couldn't hear much between the two supplies, and likewise with Bach Brandenburgs - the Archiv digital recording from 1982 sounded unpleasantly thin and bright and neither psu was going to disguise the fact.
Returning to jazz, a soprano sax/plucked bass duet ('Slalom', Jane Ira Bloom) confirmed what I heard earlier: The Paul Hynes supply seemed to bring out the subtle nuances in the performance, and my appreciation of what they were communicating tended to disarm my attempts at critical listening.
With 'So What' from Kind of Blue the PH supply gave just that bit more of a sense that I was listening in on a special musical event. (Edit: I thought I remembered Richard/Gromit saying something similar in his 'Teccy Blog' when he changed from the standard psu to the Timestep and indeed he did- he wrote about there being more 'sense of occasion'.)The feeling of the treble being somewhat 'detached' with the 317 supply was still around, but was less noticeable than before - perhaps the Schottky diodes helped here.
Rather than drive myself nuts with loads of A/B testing I'll now spend a few days with the Paul Hynes supply and then have a listen to the 317 again.
I left the transformer in place in my SL-1210, but now I understand why your installation instructions recommend taking it out!
Mine's still in too. Not for long! :eyebrows:
pure sound
05-04-2009, 20:01
Hi John,
Interested in your choice of the 15095 Altecs. I'm having some fun with the Altec 4722's along with some UTC A-12, Dukanes and some made by PriTec. (Not with a 103 though)
The 15095 appear to be a 1:10 ratio design when used backwards ie 150-15K. You'll be loading them presumably with 47K which means the 103 sees 470 ohms. How do you find this? I've seen some other people using them into that high a load although its more typical to show the cartridge 40 ohms. Have you tried any alternative transformers with the 103?
pure sound-
MC carts and SUTs are new territory for me so it's early days in my experiments. I bought the 15095's recently, also some Newcomb TR-91's. I had the latter set up for 250 ohms into 50k and they sound good, though they have less presence than the 15095. I may try running the Altecs into 25k in my phono amp.
Denon appear to recommend a 100 ohm load for the 103, and I had the impression that some people prefer higher than that.
Perhaps a subject for a new thread? I really don't know a lot about vintage transformers (or mc transformers generally, come to that), other than what I read here: http://members.myactv.net/~je2a3/mic-mcstep-up.htm
Hi Guy,
470 Ohms??? The A23 loads the 103 at 102 Ohms! As tested at Dave's place last time I was down :)
470 Ohms would be no use whatsoever with a 103, unless the partnering system has some 'issues' elsewhere. I've yet to hear a better SUT with the 103 than the A23.
Hi John,
Denon appear to recommend a 100 ohm load for the 103
Yes, there's a reason for that ;)
Marco.
Hi Marco,
Thanks - I'll try loading at 100 ohms then! :)
Edit: Now loading the Altecs at their preferred 15k, which gives 150 ohm load for the 103. Better. More body.
Let us know how you get on. You should notice the sound fill out a bit and gain more 'body' :)
Marco.
Let us know how you get on. You should notice the sound fill out a bit and gain more 'body' :)
Marco.
Well well, just as I was adding an edit to my previous post you posted the above. You are now entitled to say "Told you so!". :lolsign:
Is that the result you got, John? :)
Marco.
Is that the result you got, John? :)
Marco.
Yes indeed - see my edit to post no. 18!
LOL - I knows me 103s... :eyebrows:
Marco.
Paul Hynes
06-04-2009, 13:03
Hi Jonners,
The results you are getting with the PR3 linear regulator against an LM317 regulator confirm my own findings and, without exception, the findings of my customers. I have been using the PR3 topology since the 1980’s so it has had plenty of trial time.
Dave is right about performance variability from different LM317 manufacturers. However, it is an industrial part and was never designed for audio use and there are significant limits to the LM317 performance no matter what you do externally, or which manufacturers part you use. The transient response and settling time is rather slow and the output impedance varies considerably through the audio bandwidth. Attempting to correct these shortcomings with capacitors does not generally provide a seamless solution and adds capacitor sonic flavour to the equation. The rising impedance through the audio band is causing the disjointed treble effect that Jonners is hearing, with the LM317 power supply. The PR3 was designed specifically for audio use and maintains it’s low output impedance through the audio band and beyond with very low noise. It has a much faster transient response and settling time than any of the LM317 types regardless of which LM317 you chose.
The PR3 topology is very adaptable and can be used from around half a volt to 450 volts and a few milliamps to tens of amps with careful choice of components and due regard to their ratings. It has been used in the following applications and this list is by no means exhaustive,
Record deck DC supplies, typically the origin live dc motor and the old Pink Triangle DC motor version but now also the Technics SL1210.
Valve heater supplies
Valve HT supplies for head amps, phono stages, line preamps and power amps.
Solid state circuits for head amps, phono stages, line preamps and power amps.
Microphone preamps, acoustic instrument amplifiers and PA systems.
Mixing consol supplies.
Computer and digital audio master supplies although I generally prefer high speed shunt regulators when directly feeding clocks and DAC chips as this tends to keep fast transient current surges, typical of these devices, under local control which helps reduce circuit interaction elsewhere in the system.
Regards
Paul
I've removed the now-redundant Technics mains transformer, and the space where it lived is just the right size for a new home for the Paul Hynes supply board. :)
Peter Stockwell
07-04-2009, 11:24
John,
Can you post photos of how you installed all this good stuff ? I just exchanged a few mails with Paul about the PR3 module. It certainly looks interesting, but I'm not happy with other than basic DIY on my Teccie.
Thanks
Hello Peter,
I'll post a picture later, but the ways of installing it are just as described in this thread: http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=1237
The method I used disables the strobe and cueing light, but there is another way of connecting which keeps them and I think that is described in the thread too.
Here's a pic of the Paul Hynes supply installed where the mains transformer used to be. The connections at the left of the module are the AC input from an externally sited transformer. I used a 50VA transformer with two 0-9 V windings connected in series, which actually gave around 21VAC.
The connections at the right of the module are the ground and the 21V DC regulated output.
Peter Stockwell
08-04-2009, 07:14
John,
Thanks. I'm tempted to take the trannie out of my teccie, but I like the standard switching function that the KAB psu maintains. In reality not a big deal, all it takes is a cable run from the technics switch to the "sense" socket on the KAB psu.
I fear the the Paul Hynes solution is just a shade beyond what I'm comfortable doing, and, presently, I don't want a broken SL1210 and CD player on my hands (story elsewhere about the CD player). I don't have a real workshop and not much space to lay things out. Although I might consider a fully formed psu from him, the price is in the ballpark of the otehr options.
Dave Cawley
08-04-2009, 07:22
You can take the transformer out without loosing any functionality at all with a KAB or Timestep PSU (http://www.soundhifi.com/sl1200/SL1200%20PSU.htm).
I'm very aware this thread relates to another manufacturer, and I need to respect that. But one needs to take a holistic approach to the SL-1200, narrowing in on one isolated aspect isn't necessarily a good thing. I'm available directly at dave@SoundHiFi.com .
Regards
Dave
Paul's PSU sounds interesting... It's good that another viable option exists along with the KAB and Time Step - choice is a good thing! :)
What it shows is just how popular the Techy (and modifying of it) has become, and this trend will continue to grow as more and more people discover the magic which lies within this 'DJ deck'. When its full potential is released it quite simply offers astonishing audio performance and this together with forums such as AOS promoting it, future magazine reviews, and general word of mouth, will ensure its continued success.
I predict that within a couple of years, fully modified, it will become the de facto standard for all discerning audiophiles who value high SPPV and aren't seduced by 'badges' ;)
I would love to see the modified Techy dominate the audiophile turntable market and 'sticking two fingers up' to some of the rip-off so-called 'high-end' turntables currently being offered in the marketplace by certain 'dealers' (read as glorified box-shifters) who are only interested in maximising their profit margins! :upyours:
Marco.
Dave Cawley
08-04-2009, 08:31
When I do the bearing mod I think it might be! Need to sell another 20 PSU's though to fund the development!! :kiss:
:bag:
Regards
Dave
Oh, I'm sure that'll happen sooner rather than later ;)
Full KAB vs. Time Step PSU review will be posted by the end of the week! :gig:
Marco.
Peter Stockwell
08-04-2009, 09:07
Full KAB vs. Time Step PSU review will be posted by the end of the week!
I believe there's still an outstanding review from last year ;)
LOL - indeed! But the details therein have been covered many times since! :eyebrows:
Trust me, the PSU one won't suffer the same fate ;)
Marco.
The Paul Hynes reg sounds like a complex job for those of us who aren't too techy, I've seen pics of and heard comments about the KAB PSU, but I'm still a little in the dark about the Timestep - where does it connect? How about removing the transformer - is it a case of snipping every point that it connects to the PCB and then unscrewing it from the chassis? Does that mean the original mains cable gets replaced by the Timestep's cable (rather than having both, as with the KAB)? :scratch: I need pics!
Dave Cawley
13-04-2009, 17:17
Yes, you cut the wires to the transformer and remove the three screws, it comes out easily. You cut the mains lead and throw that away. Then fit the new Timestep lead, it has a solder tag on one wire that you put under a screw and solder the other lead. All done from the top of the deck and in 10 minutes. :kiss:
:bag:
Regards
Dave
Sounds good. Thanks, Dave. Any chance of a pic? :)
Ammonite Audio
13-04-2009, 18:50
Yes, you cut the wires to the transformer and remove the three screws, it comes out easily. You cut the mains lead and throw that away. Then fit the new Timestep lead, it has a solder tag on one wire that you put under a screw and solder the other lead. All done from the top of the deck and in 10 minutes. :kiss:
:bag:
Regards
Dave
I can confirm that it really is as simple as that. If you can solder one joint neatly, then the worst part of the operation is removing a handful of screws that hold the plastic cover on and putting them back again 10 minutes later. Whether it's a Time Step PSU, or Paul Hynes' one, the simplicity is the same. You don't have to be at all techy; indeed you'd have to be culpably ham-fisted to make a mess of it!
Spectral Morn
13-04-2009, 19:44
LOL - indeed! But the details therein have been covered many times since! :eyebrows:
Trust me, the PSU one won't suffer the same fate ;)
Marco.
In Strokes of Genius I hope....;)
Regards D S D L
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