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Marco
08-03-2009, 13:19
{Originally posted in the D.I.Y room and moved to Blank Canvas - will be moved later to The Artist's Palette}. See post #13 for the main 'meat' of the thread.


Guys,

I'm currently experimenting with D.I.Y mains cables made from 6mm twin & earth mains cable (the old red and black coloured stuff, which I've been told is superior) and high quality female IEC plugs; the other end of the cable will simply be bare wire and so hard-wired into my dedicated CU as with my current Transparent mains leads.

What I'd like to do is cover the cable with some material to make the finished item look nicer, so I wondered where one can obtain the sheaths and braiding used on mains leads and interconnects by professional manufacturers, for example the black braid stuff found on Transparent, Russ Andrews products or similar?

Any links to companies selling the material I need would be much appreciated :)

Marco.

leo
08-03-2009, 13:28
You mean stuff like this Nylon braiding http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Braid-sleeving-for-interconnects-Black-6mm_W0QQitemZ400015481289QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_Com puting_CablesConnectors_RL?hash=item400015481289&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1690%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A12%7C39%3A1%7C 240%3A1318

Should be avaialble in various diameters, it stretches too

leo
08-03-2009, 13:40
I'm sure it can be had cheaper, I think Maplin used to sell it but not sure if they do it now

Choices of colours https://www.wirecare.com/uvprod.asp

http://www.techflex.com/prod_PTN.asp

The Grand Wazoo
08-03-2009, 13:45
I used to buy the Maplin stuff - it's grey though. Very cheap

Ali Tait
08-03-2009, 13:55
See here from Farnell's Marco- http://uk.farnell.com/jsp/search/browse.jsp;jsessionid=P3KGPVGBWLTWACQLCIPZKBQ?N=10 01673+500006+400712+216721&_requestid=62410

Dunno how that price compares with others.

Though if you wait a while I could get you some gratis.

Mike
08-03-2009, 13:55
If you don't mind grey, it could be very cheap indeed. I can send you some for free! :)

Marco
08-03-2009, 13:56
Cheers, Guys. I'm looking for something that's available though in the UK. I like the black stuff in Leo's second link but would need a UK supplier - any ideas? Do Maplins definitely still sell it?

Also, the stuff in Leo's Ebay link looks fine but would it go over 6mm T&E with the thick (rather inflexible) grey 'rubbery' covering in place?

Marco.

Marco
08-03-2009, 14:00
Oops... Just noticed the latest replies :)

Farnells looks good. Mikey I don't mind grey so if you could send me what you have that would be great. I'll need about 4m of it (I'm making up 2 x 2m mains leads to start with) :smoking:

Cheers!

Marco.

Mike
08-03-2009, 14:04
Marco,

How much are you looking for, and do you remember that stuff the digi interconnect was covered in? I've got plenty of that left.

If you don't mind paying RS prices I have an account with them and can have it delivered directly to you, post free.

http://uk.rs-online.com/web/search/searchBrowseAction.html?method=retrieveTfg&binCount=26&Ne=4294957561&Ntt=braid&Ntk=I18NAll&Nr=AND%28avl%3auk%2csearchDiscon_uk%3aN%29&Ntx=mode%2bmatchallpartial&N=4294957346&Nty=1

Marco
08-03-2009, 14:11
Mmm... That could be a go-er, Mikey. I'm just having my lunch at the mo, so will PM you later :)

Marco.

Mike
08-03-2009, 14:16
You can have some of the grey stuff anyway, I've got plenty. I'll pop some in the post tomorrow, just chuck it out if it doesn't take your fancy. ;)

Stratmangler
08-03-2009, 22:22
Marco

Why not try one or two of these http://www.maplin.co.uk/Module.aspx?ModuleNo=44118&doy=8m3&C=SO&U=strat15 which are very like the ones I made from screened mains flex I recovered from a site somewhere.

Considering that they are pre-made it will save a fair bit of time and effort.

Chris

Marco
08-03-2009, 23:08
Hi Chris,

Are they made from solid-core mains cable? If not, then I'm afraid they won't be suitable. What I'm testing is the effect of stranded vs. solid-core mains cable.

My theory (which others have probably visited before but I haven't so far in great detail) is that one of the main reasons why people hear differences with mains leads is because 9 times out of 10 people are using 'kettle leads' as cables, which are constructed from a different material (stranded) to the cable used in the wall to supply the system (solid-core). There is also the diode effect to consider with stranded cables ('kettle leads') compared to solid-core, and the current handling capability and low impedance of something like 6mm mains cable compared to the very thin wire used in most hi-fi mains leads. The effect of this I'm sure must be quite significant.

It is why I feel that the last 2m of cable (or whatever) used to power a system often makes a difference, when technically it shouldn't, rather than any 'special effects' associated with the construction of audiophile mains leads. The fact that these leads often sound different from each other is I suspect not down to any one example being 'superior' to the others, or the solid-core cable that's powering the wall sockets, but rather that some examples are simply 'less worse'...

I see no reason why a cable constructed from good quality 4 or 6mm twin & earth mains cable (such as used to supply power to our wall sockets) terminated in a high quality 15A IEC plug (Furutech, Wattgate or similar) and 13A mains plug (for those who don't hard-wire) shouldn't be as good as any expensive 'audiophile' mains lead on the market - so let's find out! :)

I mean, why would you go from nice, chunky, high-current capability solid-core cable in the wall to thin, weedy, stranded 'kettle leads'? I strongly suspect it must be a downgrade and thus a significant 'bottleneck'.

If I'm right (and my system has the necessary resolution to show up the difference) then my rather expensive Transparent mains leads (£800 a pop!) will become history, just like the interconnects and speaker cable I once had, and yours truly will be going 'ching-ching' and pocketing some serious mullah from the sales proceeds ;)

To answer the oft-asked (rather monotonous) question, which has spawned numerous heated arguments across audio forums worldwide, "Do cables make a difference?", I'd say that they do, but not for the reasons many might have first thought!

All will be revealed in due course...

Marco.

{Edit: I've just read the details in the link to Maplins more closely and noticed that the cable featured uses 1.5mm mains cable... Hopefully, the 6mm stuff I intend to use will be better again due to higher current handling capability and lower impedance}.

ultraviolet
08-03-2009, 23:24
I'd be interested to hear about the outcome of your experiment. I tried solid mains cables as speaker cables a long time ago but the sound was very thin and lacking bass compared to QED 79 strand. I'd be interested to try the experiment again now as I keep wondering if the sound was actually more hifi but I just didn't appreciate this at the time.

PS - how about black paint?

Marco
08-03-2009, 23:35
Cheers - I'll let you know the outcome :)

Do you use solid-state or valve amps? With ss amps I've noticed the exact same as you, but with valve amps the results are rather different - mains cable works extremely well when used as speaker cable.

I also suspect that solid-core cable used as a mains lead will have a different effect to when used as speaker cable.

Marco.

Mike
08-03-2009, 23:46
YOU WHAT????..... Eh! :stalks:

No way!!!.... Marco doing DIY cables? Surely not!

<In finest Victor Meldrew voice>... I don't belieeeve it! :D

Whatever next?...

ultraviolet
08-03-2009, 23:52
solid-state or valve amps?



Solid state. Thinking back I think I subsequently bought some solid core £7 a metre hifi cable which unexpectedly had a similar sound to the mains cable so I went back to the cheapo QED stuff.

Marco
08-03-2009, 23:59
YOU WHAT????..... Eh! :stalks:

No way!!!.... Marco doing DIY cables? Surely not!

<In finest Victor Meldrew voice>... I don't belieeeve it! :D

Whatever next?...

You know me, Mikey - open-minded as ever. If it works it'll be quite a discovery (at least for me, anyway) :)

Marco.

Primalsea
09-03-2009, 19:09
Marco,

Get down your local B&Q or Focus etc. You can buy Unwaxed Sash Cord or other ropes that consist of an outer sheath and an inner core. The inner core can be pulled out just leaving the sheath.

Some of them are very nice too and look completely different to th eusual stuff you see on cables.

Ali Tait
10-03-2009, 10:54
Picked up some 10 mm squared mains cable from a drum I found at work.I'll have to give it a try.Picking up some new speakers today so I'll try it on them.

James G
10-03-2009, 13:58
Marco I love your theory about cables. Good stuff. Another must watch thread! :)

James G
10-03-2009, 14:07
Marco,

Get down your local B&Q or Focus etc. You can buy Unwaxed Sash Cord or other ropes that consist of an outer sheath and an inner core. The inner core can be pulled out just leaving the sheath.

Some of them are very nice too and look completely different to th eusual stuff you see on cables.

I think I read somewhere that cloth was the best dielectric besides air. If I got some of that sash cord you mentioned to cover some bare solid core copper wire, do you think it would protect it from oxidation? Or am I chasing a wild goose here?

Prince of Darkness
11-03-2009, 11:04
Can't see that working, the sashcord sheath will be easily air permeable.:)

Ali Tait
11-03-2009, 11:16
I've known people to make i/c's by feeding silver wire down shoelaces.Bit fragile but work well.

Marco
11-03-2009, 11:50
Marco I love your theory about cables. Good stuff. Another must watch thread! :)

Hi James,

Cheers!

All I'll say at the moment is that initial experiments have revealed some very interesting effects. It looks like I've discovered something MAJOR which could redefine how hi-fi enthusiasts view the use of 'audiophile' mains leads ;)

There's still much experimenting and listening to do though so no definite conclusions have been reached yet.

More later - so stay tuned!

Marco.

Steve Toy
11-03-2009, 12:39
Is there any chance of keeping the inner core as well. I'm wondering about the benefits of extra insulation from RFI etc.

Beechwoods
11-03-2009, 12:43
All I'll say at the moment is that initial experiments have revealed some very interesting effects. It looks like I've discovered something MAJOR which could redefine how hi-fi enthusiasts view the use of 'audiophile' mains leads ;)


It wouldn't have anything to do with ensuring cables run parallel to Ley lines would it, Marco ;)

Seriously, given how 'easy' it is for even amateur DIY'ers like me to put cables together I'm watching this one very carefully.

Primalsea
11-03-2009, 12:49
I think I read somewhere that cloth was the best dielectric besides air. If I got some of that sash cord you mentioned to cover some bare solid core copper wire, do you think it would protect it from oxidation? Or am I chasing a wild goose here?

NO NO NO, The idea of the cloth sheath is just to make it look nice which is what Marco was wanting it for. You guys obviously don't understand Hifi DIY the art of zen:lol:

Marco
11-03-2009, 13:03
Is there any chance of keeping the inner core as well. I'm wondering about the benefits of extra insulation from RFI etc.

The 'inner core' on twin & earth mains cable is the earth, so yes, it will getting kept ;)

RFI will be dealt with by Anthony's off-board mains filter, which as you know has proven to be excellent. It is my view, currently, that filtered and/or screened (stranded) 'audiophile' mains leads squash dynamics and mess up the sound, as evidenced (in full glory) yesterday at Ian's when we swapped the Music Works Plus mains lead powering his source for the 6mm mains cable and plugs I've been discussing.

We're now about to try the same in my system with the Transparents. This will probably take all day so I'll report back later this evening :)

Marco.

Marco
11-03-2009, 17:04
Well, that was very interesting... I'm afraid in my system it's 'no cigar' for the twin & earth mains cables, which is disappointing because I wanted the Transparents to be worse so that I would not only be able to sell them and make some money but also so that I would get some kind of upgrade, but sadly, and somewhat bizarrely it's a no-no... :scratch:

First we listened to the system as is with my Transparent mains leads in use throughout (we played a Willie Nelson and Winton Marsallis Jazz CD) just to get a feel for how the system sounded, which was fine. What we also done was to hard-wire one of the twin & earth mains leads into my CU on the same MCB as the Transparent mains lead feeding my CD transport, so we could quickly swap (within seconds) from one to the other to compare any differences.

When we swapped the Transparent lead for the twin & earth one, at first the sound seemed more 'impressive' in that voices and instruments seemed clearer and better defined, but it quickly became apparent that this was only because they were being falsely forced forward into the mix, making the sound superficially more impressive in a hi-fi sense but at the same time losing all the tonal colour and emotional expression which makes the difference between listening to music and a cardboard cut-out of such. The timing had also lost its 'snap' and overall tunefulness had taken a significant nose-dive. My system had completely lost its 'mojo' - not good!

Therefore we swapped back to the Transparent Reference mains lead and played the same track again and within the first few notes the difference (improvement) was obvious. The sound had lost that 'grey' non-descript quality which had given the music an un-involving and 'uninteresting' presentation, and the tonal colour which gives emotional expression to voices and instruments was back, timing was much better, as was the overall 'flow' such that the interplay between the musicians was convincingly presented the way I was used to hearing it - in short: a pretty big improvement over the twin & earth mains cable.

We didn't give up though and tried it back and forth with different types of recordings and music but each time the results were the same: the twin & earth mains cable completely killed my system's 'musicality'. To be honest, a lot of people would probably like the effect of the twin & earth cable as it does give an 'impressive', 'hi-fi' type of sound but it's at the expense in my opinion (and Ian who agreed) of the musically involving and highly addictive presentation I've created with my system since moving to valves and there's no way that I would wish to lose that. It's the sort of difference I always listen for when judging anything I put into use in my system from cables to equipment (and also valves). I will always put whatever communicates the music most effectively first before any superficial hi-fi 'pyrotechnics'.

Now the question of course is why did we hear such an improvement with the twin & earth cables in Ian's system (trust me, it was BIG) and not in mine?

Well, it would seem that the Music Works and Naim mains leads (left over from Ian's old Naim system) he was using in his current system weren't doing as good a job there as the Transparent mains leads were in my system, which I suppose makes sense given the huge cost difference between both, and as has been proven, in terms of performance. Ian's system was definitely not working as it should have done with the mains leads he was using, so much so in fact that he was blaming the lacklustre sound he was getting on his amps and was considering selling them as a result!! But that's all changed for him now since installing the twin & earth mains cables.

It's also obvious the difference in the quality of construction on both sets of cables (Ian's previous ones and mine); the Transparents using heavier duty cable and much higher quality connectors. Consequently, when we put the twin & earth cables in Ian's system they made a big improvement (and I mean in a musical as well as a hi-fi sense), but in my system it was the opposite. The mains leads Ian was using before were definitely strangling his system - of that there is no doubt, so this is something that he has to address and will do so.

It's disappointing for me because after hearing the effect the twin & earth solid-core cables made in Ian's system I was convinced that they'd have a similar effect in mine, but at the same time it's comforting to know that the money I paid for the Transparents has been well spent and that they definitely do their job, making a very noticeable difference to the musical presentation of my system as a whole. So unfortunately there will be no holiday for me on the proceeds of selling the Transparents (shit! :(), but I have the satisfaction of knowing that I haven't spent thousands of pounds on 'foo'... :cool:

I'll contribute some more thoughts later, but right now I'm off to listen to some tunes and mull over what I've discovered today. I don't really know why the 6mm twin & earth leads weren't better when 'logic' dictates that they should have been. Mmmm...

Laters,
Marco.

symon
11-03-2009, 17:13
You should do a further test.
Take the lead Ian uses regularly and try it in your system. And try the Transparents on Ian's system.

Marco
11-03-2009, 17:31
Indeed, Symon. I'm up for that, no worries, but it's whether Ian would want to pay the money for the Transparents if they were better ;)

There's nothing worse than hearing something in your system that makes a big improvement but it costing more than you're willing to spend! :)

He may get just as big an improvement though using less expensive 'audiophile' mains leads from another manufacturer, or even just sticking with his twin & earth cable.

Marco.

Mike
11-03-2009, 17:35
Mind if I have a go at making a mains lead for you to try?... What length do you need?

Marco
11-03-2009, 17:44
No worries, mate. 1.5m will do fine.

What you need to do though is leave long 'tails' (approx 6 inches) with about half an inch of bare wire exposed at the end on the earth, neutral and live, where the mains plug would go, so I can hard-wire the cable into the MCBs in my CU :)

Marco.

anthonyTD
11-03-2009, 18:27
hi marco,
what your probably experiencing is the filtering effect of those cables, when you put in the twin and earth you lose that effect, hence, the percieved forwardness, and timing issues probably caused by high frequency garbage on the live and neutral wire no longer being filtered to earth.
remember, "the wider you throw open the window, the more muck that blows in"
regards,anthony,TD...

Spectral Morn
11-03-2009, 18:36
Hi Marco

Very interesting write up of your experiences...its not always as clear cut as it first might appear. It is however always good to try ones theories out and never assume what works in one application will work in an other....this is a trap many fall into, and by not trying it themselves in their own set ups, run the risk of not improving things. Always listen....never assume.



Regards D S D L---Neil :)

Marco
11-03-2009, 18:41
Hi Anthony,

I know what you're getting at, but that's not what happened in this instance. The "forwardness" described (pushing vocals and instuments forward in the mix quite harshly) wasn't the predominant effect heard - it was the way the twin & earth cable completely destroyed the music in every aspect imaginable in terms of timing, tune-playing, rhythm, tonality, emotional expression - everything was wrong.

The effect was very similar actually to going from, say, new stock Electro Harmonix/Sovtek KT88s to NOS GECs. Think of that kind of difference sonically and how you know from experience it impacts on music and you've got it :)

The Transparent mains leads (and I expect high quality examples from some other well-known cable manufacturers) definitely do something right that twin & earth doesn't and it's not to do with the latter exposing any perceived bottlenecks in the system.

I'll demonstrate the effect to you when you come up :cool:

Marco.

Spectral Morn
11-03-2009, 18:46
This may sound a bit daft, but it just dawned on me... did you run in this mains cable before listening ? If not then I suspect this has mucked up your listening test.

Can I suggest running it in for maybe 50 hours and then listening again. There may be a better result after run in....I have heard run in being an issue with mains cables, both in person and as suggested by some companies in regard to their mains cable products.

I have heard this for my self...there you go head raised above the wall....controversy....!

Regards D S D L---Neil

Mike
11-03-2009, 18:49
Try using then on a bit of high current kit for a while... like a kettle maybe! :eyebrows:

anthonyTD
11-03-2009, 18:52
This may sound a bit daft, but it just dawned on me... did you run in this mains cable before listening ? If not then I suspect this has mucked up your listening test.

Can I suggest running it in for maybe 50 hours and then listening again. There may be a better result after run in....I have heard run in being an issue with mains cables, both in person and as suggested by some companies in regard to their mains cable products.

Regards D S D L---Neil
hi neil,
you must have read my mind with those dalek powers:eyebrows:
i was just about to explain that the cable marco is using has probably been bent and twisted, which causes the wire to aneel in places [harden] so may no longer have a consistency found in new off the reel types.also, as you say, the cable will indeed benefit from a burn in, using high current for this is ideal, but dont try it unless you can as mike has stated plug a kettle, or electric fire into it for a while!
anthony...

Mike
11-03-2009, 18:53
I'll make up a cable with the same stuff as I use, I'd be interested to see what you make of them. It's not something I've looked at in great depth TBH, so a second opinion will be handy... hmmm, hope I've got enough of that wire left! :scratch:

Don't hold your breath waiting for me though, I've got tons of stuff on me plate as it is!

Marco
11-03-2009, 19:10
hi neil,
you must have read my mind with those dalek powers:eyebrows:
i was just about to explain that the cable marco is using has probably been bent and twisted, which causes the wire to aneel in places [harden] so may no longer have a consistency found in new off the reel types.also, as you say, the cable will indeed benefit from a burn in, using high current for this is ideal, but dont try it unless you can as mike has stated plug a kettle, or electric fire into it for a while!
anthony...

All valid points, guys, but remember this was the exact same T&E mains cable that had transformed Ian's system 24 hours earlier with no 'fancy' burning-in whatsoever... It was literally plucked from my garage after having been lying there for years, an IEC plug was fitted, and it went straight into Ian's system.

So if the cable didn't need burning-in in Ian's system to sound great then why should it need done when used in mine? :scratch:

Basically, experience tells me quite clearly that T&E mains cable isn't as good as the Transparents. The only reason Ian got such a big improvement was because the mains leads he was using were inferior and were truly strangling his system as a result. Conclusion (for me currently): T&E mains cable is better than *some* hi-fi mains leads, but not all, particularly the really good ones.

Mikey, no rush with the cable - I'll revisit things as and when I get it :)

Marco.

John
11-03-2009, 19:13
Just caught up on this thread sorry Marco missed this before so good move shifting it; really fasinating write up and outcomes It be interesting to hear what will happen when you repeat process letting cables run for 50 hours

Ian Walker
11-03-2009, 19:21
Ah yes that brings back memories of burning in my 4 x 10mm spurs with an electric fire on full....in the middle of summer...all the windows open...cozzy on shhhhhhhhhwettin cobs hahahahahahahahaaaaaa. The things you do for music.

Marco
11-03-2009, 19:35
Indeed - I remember it well! :lolsign:

You were there today, shweety, so how would you describe what you heard?

Anthony,

The thing to do would be to bring your mains leads with you when you come up with the filter in a few weeks and we can compare those to the Transparents - what we hear then should be quite conclusive :)

Marco.

anthonyTD
11-03-2009, 21:03
hi marco,
wasnt sure if you were using the same cable in ians as yours but you have just confirmed that...sooo,,, outcome very interesting...:scratch:
anthony,TD...

DSJR
11-03-2009, 21:52
I believe that mains cables make a difference when a heavier duty gauge wire is substituted for a cheapo "kettle lead," which may be fine for some sources, but not enough for amps which pull plenty from the mains in time with the music. No wonder the new Naim lead is 38A rated cable (I'll pass on the decoupled pins).

Transparent "supposedly" do carefully design their different wires I've found and a mate who sells them rates them very highly. In situations of bad mains coming in and a top end system, I'd say the Transparents would be quite at home. On my system now, with clean mains, a pre that's immune to mains discrepancies and power amps that are very carefully VI limited here and there (with large reservior supplies though) I don't have these problems as I did when we lived in "sunny" Luton [spit!]

Marco
12-03-2009, 12:45
Dave, I think the Transparents would work well in almost any set-up or situation.

I haven't given up totally on the twin & earth thing yet. Ian's going to get some 'proper' leads made up from Roy Riches (anyone who knows Roy, an ex-electrical engineer and current serial hi-fi tweaker, will know how meticulous he is in terms of constructing cables) which have higher quality IEC plugs on them and an outer braiding to replace the grey rubbery stuff used as standard. The IECs we were using were pretty ordinary so that could have had an effect.

When the new leads have been supplied and have burnt-in, I will revisit the situation again and report back :)

One thing that's come out of this though is that if I had any slight or niggling doubts that the quality of mains leads one uses in a hi-fi system doesn't make any difference then they've been well and truly blasted into beyond!

Marco.

symon
12-03-2009, 13:25
Is there a handy and useful website somewhere which an ignorant person (me) can go to to find out more about this aspect of a hi-fi set up?

Being fairly new to this lark, I can see you are getting results, but I don't know what path you have followed to get to where you are. Plus, I suspect your Transparents will always be too expensive for me, so learning the basics would help me at least make the right first step in the right direction (he says thinking about all the kettle leads which may now become redundant)

Ali Tait
12-03-2009, 14:03
Try the tntaudio website.There's a few cable designs there.

Marco
12-03-2009, 14:18
Hi Symon,

I always believe that there's no substitute for your own experience, so try making up a few mains leads yourself - it's a piece of piss.

Obtain some of these IECs (which are good enough to start off with):

http://uk.farnell.com/schurter/4782-0100/connector-iec-power-15a-250v/dp/1462701

or these:

http://markgrantcables.co.uk/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=45_16&products_id=112

or if you want something of better quality again:

http://markgrantcables.co.uk/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=45_16&products_id=35


One of these (if you want a high-quality 13A plug):

http://markgrantcables.co.uk/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=45_16&products_id=36

And some of this cable (if you want to use the old red & black stuff, claimed to be better):

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/6mm-twin-and-earth-red-and-black-old-colours-cable-6-mm_W0QQitemZ250381375539QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_DIY_ Material_Electrical_Fittings_MJ?hash=item250381375 539

If not, pop along to your local Maplins or City Electrical Factors and buy some cut lengths of 6mm square twin & earth mains cable. Go for good quality stuff like Pirelli, Irish Driver or Doncaster - avoid the cheap stuff from China, sold in stores like B&Q and Homebase, as its shit.

And you're off... No soldering skills needed :)

Then report back and tell us what you think!

Marco.

symon
12-03-2009, 16:07
Well, blimey! That's great. Time to get playing.

I really should make my own thread somewhere - I consider myself to be at the beginning end of getting into hi-fi, so I know next to nothing. The learning curve just from reading stuff here is immense!

symon
13-03-2009, 11:49
A quick update - I've looked at those links you supplied Marco, and I'm suitably inspired. However, I'm about to change my system around quite a bit, so I'll let that settle in and get used to how it sounds, and then I'll start playing around with the mains leads. So, I will report back at a later date.

Marco
13-03-2009, 12:00
No worries, Symon - enjoy at your leisure! :)

Marco.

Si74
17-03-2009, 01:36
Resisting the temptation to list every cable I've owned, bought or sold, I'd say the connectors are the end game. I've reterminated rather a lot of fancy & some cheap cords with Oyaide connectors and they blow away Wattgates/furutechs.
In days gone by when I sold lots of cables, letting people hear a power cord that has synergy with their gear killed dead any sales of speaker or interconnect cables.
Sometimes anything is better than a kettle lead, sometimes not and a suitcase full of Electraglides, Shunyata, Elrod, Lessloss and some diy power cords dropped more jaws than a carload of cables to join the boxes!

Marco
17-03-2009, 07:55
Hi Si,

That's most interesting. I was looking for someone who had experience of trying different IEC plugs, as it's something I haven't experimented much with myself.

Can you explain briefly the difference, sonically, you've found with Oyaide connectors compared to Furutech and Wattgate and if possible how their respective construction techniques may be responsible for the differences you've heard?

Also, which particular Oyaide connectors do you reckon are best (as there are numerous different types available)? And which supplier do you use?

I've read that the Isotek ones are supposed to be very good, too.

Cheers,
Marco.

Mark Grant
17-03-2009, 09:34
The Oyaide are great connectors although you need to be aware that there are many counterfit poor quality copies for sale at many suppliers.

There is a list of a few suppliers that Oyaide have found here:
http://www.oyaide.com/e_audio/support/support_index.htm

One of them is a UK ebay seller so beware where you buy.

-

Another connector that is worth a try is the Martin Kaiser 794 IEC connector.

The contacts in these usually fit sockets tighter than wattgate connectors and they cost much less.

Also very easy to fit as the screw that holds the two halves of the connector together is in a better position than most other similar looking connectors.

If you have ever tried fitting a shurter IEC to a fat cable you know what a challenge it can be when the screw is in the way :scratch:

http://markgrantcables.co.uk/shop/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=45_16

Mark.

Marco
17-03-2009, 12:16
Hi Mark,

Thanks for the info. Where is the best place to buy Oyaide connectors if you live in the UK? There appears to be no UK dealers... Or do you have another source (perhaps an Ebay or Internet seller of the genuine articles)?

Marco.

P.S Any news yet on your own branded cable for the interconnects we were discussing some time ago? :)

James G
19-03-2009, 04:57
This thread inspired me to upgrade my power cable. I scraped up a large 12/3 power lead used to power server racks that was destined for the bin. Put some Furutech connectors on it and now enjoying a noticable gain in performance. In the future I think I will try some other wire types. Has anyone ever tried some romex 12/3 for this?

Si,
Since you used to sell cables maybe you could tell me what type of wire designs work well (not so much interested in brands, but the technology used). For example, I saw some bulk wire where the wire strands were braided around these hollow tubes and thought that was a pretty interesting design.

twelvebears
19-03-2009, 07:37
This is an interesting thread (to us at least, Susy looked less enthralled when she started reading over my shoulder last night), because I spent some time fiddling around with cables myself a few years back.

It was just around the time I'd bought a mains supply unit after borrowing it from my friendly Musical Images dealer. I can't remember what make it was (I don't have it now), but it was basically a rectifying transformer encapsulated in resin in a casing. Trailing lead to the mains one side, socket on the other and weighed a ton.

Anyway, I did find in good at providing a consistancy to the sound of my system which seemed to be influenced by other appliances around the house on the ring-main.

What I found was that with the supply in place, swapping the last 3ft of lead to the components seemed to make very little different (I was trying standard Musical Fidelity leads vs solid core mains DIY vs Russ Andrews), but without the power block/supply/brick thing, the cables had a big impact.

I came to the conclusion that the 'junk' in the supply is the issue and that while good cables help, it makes sense to clean up the power supply more that spend the money on the cables.

Si74
19-03-2009, 08:13
Hi all,

sorry for the tardiness in replying!
My reasoning behind the Oyaides:
a) the amount of Furutech and Gold Wattgates I have lying about that are from recurrent customers reterminations with various Oyaide, mainly from people who have tried rather a lot of power cords and in most instances, settled on their favourites.
b) feedback from the aforementioned people - never had anyone who regretted this step and for a guide, the speil Oyaide give for the different types of plating on each model is a fair guide to the sound they will give
c) The quality of construction of the real ones - the plating is very good quality, they are a seriously tight fit in whatever form and much wider openings in the front section allow the use of much larger gauge conductors.

General points to watch
I've bought some of the ones on eBay that are obviously fakes. Some bought a while ago looked like very good copies and some bought recently are just plain crap. The bodies look fine bough the cheap looking copper (coloured?) blades in the front of the IEC connectors are a dead giveaway.
All the real ones now have serial nos and a hologram type badge along the lines of the markings on a credit card.
The 037s are good enough for my tastes, the 046s sound a tad more detailed but lean to sounding a shade warmer. The 079s and the M1s do sound better but the law of diminishing returns kicks in to my mind(& wallet)

Given the design of the connection - the clamp has the screw running throught the middle with a double width opening for the conductor if that makes sense, I've found that splitting the conductor/braid where possible and running half either side of the clamping screw works best. If a really thick cable/conductor is fed into one half of the clamp, then tightening, can result in stripping the thread. I like to horse these tight and leave over night then at least with braided cables, you can usually get another quarter turn on the screws.

The larger conductor aperatures have allowed me to use these on Micheal Wolf cords (sliver ribbon with a carbon sleeve?) and also various Electraglides with ribbon conductors. Harmonix DC Studio Masters and various Cardas power cords have very heavy conductors which I've seen trimmed/slimmed? down to fit Wattgates. Oyaides allow the whole section of the conductors to be clamped, surely good practice?

re the construction of the conductors, I don't proffess to know..
I've had good results with ribbon conductors in copex basically I think because the die electric is mostly air? ala Electraglide
Sheilding the conductors from each other seems to add some clarity (Lessloss and the like).
Many cords I've tried with solid conductors ran in pairs with the 3 conductors woven seem to work well and be good value and work better than their narrow gauge would suggest? The same construction using sheilds on each conductor works well and grounding the shields at the wall end seems good practice but I've seen instances where bad construction/insulation has made this a bit dubious not to mention dangerous!

Whilst 20 years in Telcomms gave me the confidence to tackle most things power cord related in the past, recent & current electrical regs. makes me steer clear of this stuff these days.

As to suppliers - my mate in Singapore used to buy their connectors and bulk cable for me at great prices but the shop/unit was a fair bus ride from the centre so I didn't like to trouble him unless it was a bulk buy :-)
I've also bought them from Chris Venhaus in the States. Not as good value with the current exchange rates and be wary that the shipping price is a bit ott !

All only imo of course, hope this helps a bit.

Cheers Simon

Marco
19-03-2009, 10:27
Hi Simon,

Thanks for that - most helpful :)

I presume that this is the Chris Venhaus to whom you refer?

http://www.vhaudio.com/connectors-ac.html#OyaideIEC

I've provided a link straight to the Oyaide connectors in question for anyone who would like to order some.

Marco.

James G
19-03-2009, 10:51
Thanks Simon! Good write up. Gives me a lot to go on.

Ribbon conductors in tubes - that's one I'm pretty sure I've never laid eyes on.
Makes me even more curious about this stuff. Time to experiment! :artist: