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View Full Version : The SE V's PP Debate...



Mike
08-02-2009, 13:45
Up until today I'd never heard a single ended amplifier in my own system and always thought I 'needed the heft' of a push-pull design to give the power and weight I like. I was wrong!

Having given myself a hernia or two (this thing is huge) heaving my newly acquired Mr Liang 845SET out of the car and into my listening room I sat down and had a brief listen earlier.

Bloody hell!... I'm very pleasantly shocked at how powerful it sounds, and boy is it FAST! I'm so taken aback that I'm seriously thinking there may be something wrong with my WD88, I'll be interested to hear what Avinash, who has it on loan, thinks of it. So far I've paid no attention to set-up at all, just dumped it on top of my (non audiophool) rack where it doesn't fit and plugged some cables in. Hell some of the cables might even be touching the wall, heaven forbid! :lol:

So, if anyone else is 'sure' they need a PP amp to get the 'balls' they think they need (yes, Marco, I'm talking to you! :ner:) then it may be time for a bit of re-education, I'm gobsmacked!

It's early days yet, but jeez, this things shows so much promise! I might just put something in 'Strokes of Genius' when I've got a better handle on it all.


Comments please?

Marco
08-02-2009, 13:56
Nice one, Mikey. The Liang is a great amp. I heard Ali's at one of the Owston fests and was impressed by it. I've also heard a few others since - it gets a good rep and deservedly so! :)


So, if anyone else is 'sure' they need a PP amp to get the 'balls' they think they need (yes, Marco, I'm talking to you! ) then it may be time for a bit of re-education, I'm gobsmacked!


Hehe... I rate the Liang highly but I still wouldn't swap my Copper amp for one. That doesn't mean that I've ruled out SE completely, though - far from it. Even though I've heard a few now, and some very good ones amongst them, it's something that I still need more experience with before finalising my opinion on the matter.

You see I'm like that - I never jump to conclusions or set my opinions in stone because I'm an open-minded big bastard :eyebrows:

;)

Anyway, dude, I'm pleased for ya so enjoy yer new toy! Off to play some tunes now are we? :gig:

Marco.

Mike
08-02-2009, 14:01
Off to play some tunes now are we?

No, I'm off to get my stomach sewn back in, and then to the chiropractor to have my back put straight. :lol:

Marco
08-02-2009, 14:03
Haha... Is that after you lifted the f*cker or listened to it? :lolsign:

Marco.

Primalsea
08-02-2009, 14:04
Hi Mike,

Dont take this as pissing on your parade but...............................

You may have had a revelation. The way you can tell for sure is to live with it for a while and see how you feel about it after a period of extended time. Then stick your WD88 back in and see what you feel like. Sometimes whats initially impressive can tarnish. Its a bit like leaving your wife for a new woman and then realising that its your wife you want after all, not that I would know if you done that. If the SE wins handsdown everytime you put it in then its for you to seperate from your WD88.

Mike
08-02-2009, 14:17
Hi Mike,

Dont take this as pissing on your parade but...............................

You may have had a revelation. The way you can tell for sure is to live with it for a while and see how you feel about it after a period of extended time.

Absolutely!... It's just such a shock as I was expecting exactly the opposite TBH. I also thought my speakers were pretty laid back, but it seems they aren't! :scratch:

Like I've said, no attention to set up so far, I don't even know if I've connected to the 4 or 8 ohm taps. Just a very promising start. :)

I foresee a growing amp collection. :eyebrows:

Marco
08-02-2009, 14:17
Very good advice!

Marco.

Ali Tait
08-02-2009, 16:26
Hi Mike,
Yes it's a nice amp isn't it? I liked mine a lot,and thought the same about it as you,until I got the Audioromy 813.That makes the Liang sound weedy! -at least on my statics,they seem to need a bit more than the 20w of the Liang.The weight is someting else too, 41kg I believe.That and the size makes it a difficult move.Don't think it'll be much bothered by vibration! :)

Mike
08-02-2009, 16:28
Ali... YGPM. :)

Spectral Morn
08-02-2009, 17:50
Hi Guys

I haven't heard the amp you have bought but SE AND PP decisions will depend on the type of valves being used and the power those designs can safely extract from them; as well as the speakers in the system. I like 845 valves as you can get quite a lot of power out of that tube, even when used SE. Its open,dynamic, robust and yet delicate and focused. In short it has all the best qualities of say 2A3 tubes and the more powerful types.

I like the 6c33c tubes because they do something similar to the 845. A lot I guess/know will have to do with your speakers and whether you are prepared to change them to suit lower power SE amps. Its possible to scrape in under the wire with your amp choice like I just managed when I reviewed the ECOFAN SOUND 6A3 5 watt amp, awhile back in my second system (speakers are Ref 3A Dulcetes).

ECOFAN SOUND 6A3 Valve amplifier

http://i549.photobucket.com/albums/ii364/davros124/P1000869.jpg


I was not prepared to change speakers in my main system as I really liked my Anthony Gallo Ref 3.1's. They needed more power than any SE amp could give. Even the 55 watts of A BAT VK 55 was not enough, so I got a 75 watt BAT VK75 amplifier. The extra 25 watts were a life and system saver. A compromise over SE but in my opinion, for me, in my setup a good one, it had to be PP over SE.

BAT VK 75 amplifier

http://www.musicdirect.com/shared/images/products/large/abat75.jpg


However different circumstances, and time with more money and a lot of hindsight I might have pursued the SE route, but not with Horns....I have yet to hear any that aren't coloured. They may exist I just have yet to hear or see one. They all seem to suffer from a hands over mouth effect.



Regards D S D L---Neil :)

Mike
08-02-2009, 18:03
Interesting stuff there Neil,

I'll admit I was expecting this SE amp to go a bit weak at the knee's when asked to do a bit of 'head banging' with my speakers, but there's not a bit of it! I guess they're an easier load than I thought.:)

I could get more power from it by changing over to GM70 valves, roughly double from what I hear, but at the moment 20 watts is more than enough... and I never thought I'd say that! ;)

Sure, if I was to nitpick, it could be said that it's a little 'rough around the edges' in places, but I've still not paid any attention to set-up. I still don't know what transformer taps I've connected up, never mind tried the other one, been too busy listening up till now. Had to take a bit of a breather though, it can match it's sheer mass with it's heat output!!! :stalks:

anthonyTD
08-02-2009, 18:53
Interesting stuff there Neil,

I'll admit I was expecting this SE amp to go a bit weak at the knee's when asked to do a bit of 'head banging' with my speakers, but there's not a bit of it! I guess they're an easier load than I thought.:)

I could get more power from it by changing over to GM70 valves, roughly double from what I hear, but at the moment 20 watts is more than enough... and I never thought I'd say that! ;)

Sure, if I was to nitpick, it could be said that it's a little 'rough around the edges' in places, but I've still not paid any attention to set-up. I still don't know what transformer taps I've connected up, never mind tried the other one, been too busy listening up till now. Had to take a bit of a breather though, it can match it's sheer mass with it's heat output!!! :stalks:

hi mike,
good to hear your a single ended convert [well nearly] single ended when done right can be every bit as good as push-pull, and in some cases when done exceptionally well, they can indeed be even better in some aspects, its due partly to a more simplified signal path, ie no phase splitter needed etc...
enjoy...:)
anthony,TD...

Haselsh1
09-02-2009, 09:03
I have to admit to being a single ended convert. I've had a couple over the years with the last one being a Yarland Pro 200SE, a single ended 300B type. The delicacy of the female voice on Rebecca Pidgeon's 'The Raven' was atsonishing and the extra detail was a revelation. It was truly made for vinyl.

Alas, I had to part company with it because it was Chinese and eventually developed a multitude of faults. The electrician I put it in the hands of said he had never seen such a collection of junk inside it in his life before. All of the internal voltages were all over the place and it had a collection of valve rectification and solid state and allsorts of stuff going on. I bought it as a 230VAC version but it ended up being for 220VAC and it cost me around 450 quid with VAT and import duty.

Unfortunately, I doubt I shall ever be in the financial position of ever being able to afford a genuine single ended valve amplifier again. However, for me, they are the ultimate expression.

Ali Tait
09-02-2009, 16:09
Good as the Liang is,IMHO there are better transmitter valves than the 845 out there.I think 845's do have a lot of potential,but they are so difficult to drive that it's almost impossible to hear what they are really capable of.To my ears the 211 is a much better sounding valve,and also the 813 in triode mode sounds very good to me.212's are awsome,but so expensive and used at such high voltages it's not a practical proposition.Not heard them,but 833's are supposed to be good too.Gm70's too,though only the copper ones.

Haselsh1
09-02-2009, 16:15
Mmmm... I saw a beautiful 2A3 single ended amplifier on ebay a couple of weeks ago but it was Chinese and my lesson with them was very short and very sharp. I would though dearly love another. I could always use a variac but they're not the sort of thing I want decorating the lounge.

Marco
09-02-2009, 16:27
I've always admired the products of Icon Audio:

http://www.iconaudio.com/products.htm

If I didn't have my Croft and Copper amp I'd probably be using some of their stuff as I suspect it offers similarly high SPPV, if not by using bespoke NOS parts.

Did anyone read the review of the MB845 monoblocks in the January issue of HFW?

Those look seriously tempting and would be on my audition list were I in the market for new power amps! :eyebrows:

Marco.

Haselsh1
09-02-2009, 16:40
I've taken a close interest in the Prima Luna Prologue Four power amp which is a 35wpc EL34 PP design. I could maybe afford the one grand asking price but then couldn't afford an expensive pre. Again, they do an integrated version but it's well over a grand and therefore out of reach. I visit the Icon Audio website everytime I want to drool over a nice pair of monoblocks. 1600 quid...??? Never again in my lifetime I'm afraid.

Mike
09-02-2009, 16:54
Well you knever know, there may be a nice WD88VA-XL for sale in the not too distant future. :eyebrows:

It's a PP amp but at least it has valves. :)

anthonyTD
09-02-2009, 17:16
hi all,
i have thought long and hard about this, and have decided that i will be building some 813 single ended all-valve mono-block amps in the near future, they will probably be triode/pentode conection, so should offer a good compromise to both triode purists, and the rest of us who like to give it a bit of welly on the odd ocasion, will keep you posted.:)
anthony...

Mike
09-02-2009, 17:18
Ooer!... Sounds interesting. Do you need a Guinea Pig? :eyebrows:

anthonyTD
09-02-2009, 17:31
Ooer!... Sounds interesting. Do you need a Guinea Pig? :eyebrows:

hi mike,
looking for input on their looks :eyebrows: so all constructive ideas as to their physical apearance are welcome, i think i have the circuit covered.
regards,anthony,TD...

Mike
09-02-2009, 17:35
Yeah, but you'll need some independent testers to listen to them. In their own homes of course, a couple of years should be about right! :lol:

Put me at the top of the list! :smoking:

Ali Tait
09-02-2009, 17:46
I'll swop you several nice pairs of NOS 813's for a pair! :eyebrows:

Ali Tait
09-02-2009, 17:47
BTW,I was told the 813 is Andy Grove's favourite valve.

anthonyTD
09-02-2009, 18:06
hi all,
when i have built them they will indeed be available for demo's to interested parties, then, if i get enough interest i plan on making a small exclusive production run that will only be available to AOS members. ali, thanks for the offer on the valves,:eyebrows:seriously though i am not sure of andy grove's prefrence to the 813, but hopefully they will prove to be worth the effort.
anthony,TD...

Spectral Morn
09-02-2009, 18:21
HI AnthonyTD


I like the look of this valve....:)

http://www.btinternet.com/~ALLAN.ISAACS/813.jpg

http://www.wiwitubes.com/pic/tube/WH813.jpg

http://www.eifl.co.jp/index/tube/image/syl_813.jpg

http://www.cyberattic.com/stores/nellie360/items/679121/picture1.jpg

Valves with anode caps are way cool...... Should be interesting. I have never heard a 813 valve.

We don't want it to look like this...... ANTHONY TD;)

http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~postr/bapix/813amp1.JPG

view of back of above

http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~postr/bapix/813amp2.JPG

OR THIS.....!;)

http://www.astrosurf.com/luxorion/Radio/ampli-wing813-aa8v.jpg

ACTUALLY BOTH OF THE ABOVE ARE AMATEUR RADIO RIGS .....HAM RADIO. SORT OF THING MY DAD MIGHT HAVE USED(BEFORE HE WENT SOLID STATE...TRAITOR). I MAY EVEN HAVE SOME 813 VALVES AMONG THE STASH OF VALVES I GOT FROM HIM A FEW YEARS AGO..


Regards D S D L----Neil :)

anthonyTD
09-02-2009, 18:27
Valves with anode caps are way cool...... Should be interesting. I have never heard a 813 valve.
i agree neil,
as long as their well insulated of course.:eek:
:lolsign:
A...

anthonyTD
09-02-2009, 18:31
We don't want it to look like this...... ANTHONY TD
ooh, err, i wouldnt dare for fear of being hung drawn and quartered!
:lolsign:

Spectral Morn
09-02-2009, 18:44
anthonyTD
Quote:
We don't want it to look like this...... ANTHONY TD
ooh, err, i wouldnt dare for fear of being hung drawn and quartered!


HI ANTHONY TD


GLAD TO HERE IT BECAUSE IF YOU HAD YOU WOULD HAVE TO BE EXTERMINATED......

http://www.aceldama.com/~tomr/media/dalek/dalek-3h.jpg

...AND I WOULD HAVE TO BRING THE REST OF THE FLEET TOO......MIGHT AS WELL HAVE THE EARTH.....IMPOSE VALVE AMPLIFICATION ON ALL EARTHS INHABITANTS...

http://freespace.virgin.net/steve.redfearn/Graphics/JPG/Dalek%20Base.jpg

WE COULD NOT ALLOW THIS RENEGADE TO LIVE.......EXTERMINATE.....

http://bigyellowtaxi.files.wordpress.com/2007/06/normal_dalek_ipod.jpg YUCK.....YUCK...


Regards D S D L----Neil :)

anthonyTD
09-02-2009, 19:03
:lol::lol::lol:
nice one neil.:smoking:

Ali Tait
09-02-2009, 19:26
I was very lucky to aquire 8 NOS 813's for 14.99 each.Saw the sale on ebay and snapped it up!

Anthony,you may have seen these,if not,they may be of interest-

http://www.pmillett.com/813_se_triode_amps.htm

http://www.chambonino.com/construct/const9.html :sofa:

Primalsea
09-02-2009, 19:32
I thought the WD88 run in class A so its a bit (little bit) like having 2 se amps bridged.

anthonyTD
09-02-2009, 20:12
I was very lucky to aquire 8 NOS 813's for 14.99 each.Saw the sale on ebay and snapped it up!

Anthony,you may have seen these,if not,they may be of interest-

http://www.pmillett.com/813_se_triode_amps.htm

http://www.chambonino.com/construct/const9.html :sofa:

hi ali,
yes, seen the amp in the first link,the second, well, a bit over the top, but, what ever floats boats i supose,now ide come out from behind that sofa if i was you as mike is usualy hanging out there and has been known to let off a few nasties:eyebrows:
:lolsign:

Ali Tait
09-02-2009, 20:23
:lolsign: Yes,over the top is putting it mildly.I'll be very interested what you do with 813's.I really like the sound of this Audioromy I have.It's poorly-made,cheap parts,and I doubt the output trannies are up to much,yet it sounds fantastic on my statics.I'd love to hear what a well-executed design with decent trannies could do.

Mike
11-02-2009, 11:47
I think I WILL mod it to use GM70's after all.

845's can be expensive! :stalks: http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&item=150324946633

Ali Tait
11-02-2009, 13:34
Don't even think about NOS Mike.Most that are sold as such from the U.S. are no such thing,being well used examples that still measure ok and sell for rediculous amounts.If you can find them,try KR Audio if you want to splash out.Iv'e not heard any,so would be a risk.I do know some peeps with KR 300b's,and they are very good.Hi-Fi Collective sell 3 variants of the Shuguang 845's at reasonable prices.Even if not the cheapest,at least you have some comeback.

Ali Tait
11-02-2009, 13:37
P.S. Only do the GM70 mod if you're going to use copper-plate GM70's.The graphite ones are crap in comparison.

Mike
11-02-2009, 15:02
P.S. Only do the GM70 mod if you're going to use copper-plate GM70's.The graphite ones are crap in comparison.

Yep, copper GM70's are still cheaper than some 845's too.

Ali Tait
11-02-2009, 15:46
Yes true,if you can find them.

promachos
13-02-2009, 11:03
I have yet to experiment with GM70,i do have two graphite ones waiting in the wings to try sometimes.

A friend of mine has toyed with GM70 and actually has a preference for the graphite ones !

As always,only you can say which is better for you !!:)

Mike
19-03-2009, 12:55
Oh dear...

The WD88 amp has been gone for less than half an hour and I'm already missing it. :(

I feel all single ended now... :confused:

Ali Tait
19-03-2009, 17:33
Ahh c'mon Mike,single-ended is the only way to be!! :lolsign:

Mike
19-03-2009, 17:54
It has it's plus points. :)

Ali Tait
19-03-2009, 18:04
Get yourself an 813...

Mike
19-03-2009, 18:19
I almost did today. :)

But most have disappeared from ebay ATM. Good job really, the current 'pot' is earmarked for some TT modifications. ;)

I still might try Mr Liang with some copper GM70's... We'll see! :eyebrows:

Ali Tait
19-03-2009, 18:26
Anytime you want a listen,let me know. :)

Mike
19-03-2009, 19:10
Now? :)

Ali Tait
19-03-2009, 19:13
No problem if you can beam me up! :)

Marco
19-03-2009, 19:58
How's that amp of yours doing, Ali - have you tweaked it any further with NOS valves or whatever?

It kicked ass at Owston! :gig:

Marco.

Ali Tait
19-03-2009, 20:52
Sounds much better now with NOS 813 rather than the Chinese jobbies you heard in it then.As usual,NOS sound better!

Marco
19-03-2009, 21:11
Nice one, matey. If I were ever to go the SE route that's the amp (or type of amp) I'd go for. I'm not into the 'tinkly tinkly sweety-pie' SEs. I like balls and grunt, which your 813 delivers in spades! :eyebrows: :fingers:

Marco.

Ali Tait
19-03-2009, 21:43
Aye,but it does the tinkly tinkly sweetie pie thing too! :eyebrows:

Marco
19-03-2009, 21:46
Hehe... Aye a know, but it can let its troosers doon, too, when it wants tae! :lolsign:

{My apologies to our more civilised English members for the vulgar foray into idiomatic Scottish-isms}

Marco.

Ali Tait
21-03-2009, 15:36
:)