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View Full Version : Addressing the issue of microphony



Steve Toy
07-02-2009, 04:30
I'd like to find out the general opinion of forum members on this. Do you believe there is anything to be gained from addressing microphony issues, i.e. attempting to reduce vibrations entering your kit?

I'm looking for some truly candid responses here both in the poll and any further commentary.

Beechwoods
07-02-2009, 07:19
I have no experience of this but I'm open-minded and willing to experiment.

I feel that my system has a long way to go before the affects of microphony, supports and cables are likely to have an audible affect. But once sources, amplification and speakers are sorted to a certain level microphony, supports and cables are going to have a more perceptible affect on the end result... and that's when tweaking and experimenting with them is likely to pay dividends.

I'd be interested in whether advocates of supports and cable dressings feel that the affects of good practice in this area will have an affect regardless of the resolution of the other system building blocks...

John
07-02-2009, 07:23
ahh depends!!!
For instance on my power amp it tightens up the bass I use the feet of silence underneath Recently when Vic came around he asked me if those really work I said lets see, I then put on a track listened to it then removed it and listened again the music had lost some of its impact, this became more imparent when we put the feet back underneath the bass became tighter
When I had EAR 864 preamp using the biggest Cardas blocks to isolate had a big impact on sounstage I then tried this trick on everything else thinking it would make a difference but apart from my power amp I found Isolation made no difference
Items like tube damper rings can make a difference too but again the results are varied too, tried in the power amp makes no difference at some point I see if it makes a difference to my preamp yet many people report a big improvement when using tube dampers

The Grand Wazoo
07-02-2009, 09:01
I can tell what your answer would be from the way you constructed the poll.
There's something missing.............

What about adding 'According to my experience it brings about some improvements'??

.............No?

jandl100
07-02-2009, 09:03
heh heh - the poll options are a bit extreme - either night&day or none-at-all!

As such, I've plumped for none-at-all. Although I agree with John, really - "aah - depends!!!"

I've tried various stands and stuff, and support tweaks (my 'hifi drawers' are brimming with pucks & cones & spikes & pads and things!! :)) - some can make a difference, depending on the context. But not night&day, and not none-at-all. ;)

Marco
07-02-2009, 09:31
I can tell what your answer would be from the way you constructed the poll.
There's something missing.............

What about adding 'According to my experience it brings about some improvements'??

.............No?

Indeed. Steve, I think you should edit the poll accordingly :)

Marco.

Clive
07-02-2009, 11:19
I've not read every post but has anyone actually said that microphony doesn't exist or not matter? Clearly it does matter but the dispute is over where it matters. If you are serious about this then placing your amp (especially any with valves) and TT outside your listening room is a must. If you want to go to the max then do this for starters. Then attend to the small stuff.

jandl100
07-02-2009, 11:25
Interesting, Clive

But you do then get the trade off between cable length and microphony affecting the sound in different ways and to different degrees ... not to mention the cost of 'audiophile' cables that long!

Clive
07-02-2009, 11:39
Interesting, Clive

But you do then get the trade off between cable length and microphony affecting the sound in different ways and to different degrees ... not to mention the cost of 'audiophile' cables that long!
It depends on your situation. I run the air pump for my arm in the next room, it's just the other side of a single brick wall. If I did the same with my TT and line-level electronics I could do this with the cables I already have.

jandl100
07-02-2009, 11:42
Ah - Yes, OK. Sadly, I have only 1 hifi room, not 2!

John
07-02-2009, 11:44
Clive seems a bit of a extreme option and likely impossible for most of us to achieve

jandl100
07-02-2009, 11:53
I run the air pump for my arm in the next room, it's just the other side of a single brick wall. If I did the same with my TT and line-level electronics I could do this with the cables I already have.

Clive - I deduce from your posting that you understandably run your potentially noisy air pump from an adjacent room. But have you actually tried moving the rest of the equipment (barring speakers, presumably!) into the next room, or are you just havin' a bit o' fun and taking the subject to it's obvious extreme and saying that;s the 'minimum' that needs to be done?! ;)

Clive
07-02-2009, 11:53
Clive seems a bit of a extreme option and likely impossible for most of us to achieve
John, I agree it's an extreme option. Actually it's one that would be relatively easy for me to do but the inconvenience would be huge in terms of playing records.

I was only suggesting the idea for those who are determined to extract the very maximum out of their system. Unless such extreme measures are taken you won't get the max. Me? I'm happy to live with the compromise and convenience of my system being in my listening room.

Clive
07-02-2009, 11:57
Clive - I deduce from your posting that you understandably run your potentially noisy air pump from an adjacent room. But have you actually tried moving the rest of the equipment (barring speakers, presumably!) into the next room, or are you just havin' a bit o' fun and taking the subject to it's obvious extreme and saying that;s the 'minimum' that needs to be done?! ;)
Yes I'm having a bit of fun :) but there is a serious point too. By saying it's the "minimum" what I mean is that anyone who really is pushing to get the max out of their system then this should bring significant benefits. Have I tried this? Partially, I have put the TT in the next room. The improvement was not subtle.

BTW my listening room is in my cellar so I have quite a lot of flexibility.

Steve Toy
07-02-2009, 12:21
Moving kit to another will deal (in part) with one obvious source of vibration but only one - that from the speakers. You will have some cabling headaches though given the lengths involved. The end result might not be any better if it isn't actually worse.

Clive
07-02-2009, 12:31
Moving kit to another will deal (in part) with one obvious source of vibration but only one - that from the speakers. You will have some cabling headaches though given the lengths involved. The end result might not be any better if it isn't actually worse.
This is why I tried it with my TT, the benefit is probably the greatest here. Especially with the wick turned up.

It may cause cable problems for some or even many. I just have a wall one brick deep to feed my cables through so it would be no trouble at all in that respect.

Marco
07-02-2009, 13:57
I was only suggesting the idea for those who are determined to extract the very maximum out of their system. Unless such extreme measures are taken you won't get the max. Me? I'm happy to live with the compromise and convenience of my system being in my listening room.


Me too! There's a balance to be had between extracting the very maximum from a system and practicality, and also there's a big difference between dressing a few cables at the back of your rack, keeping them from touching walls, and carting turntables around the joint! :eyebrows:

I will always do everything I can to optimise the set-up of my system but it must always fall within the boundaries of what I consider as practical. This is just common sense, really.

Marco.

Clive
07-02-2009, 14:15
I will always do everything I can to optimise the set-up of my system but it must always fall within the boundaries of what I consider as practical. This is just common sense, really.

Marco.
If I'm being pedantic (which I am), the common sense part applies to working out what extreme it's viable for you to go to. There are situations where preventing having your system not exposed to airborne vibrations is quite a reasonable thing to do. There are people who have built extensions to their house that is purely for a listening room. Having a small closet type of room, just as it often that case with commercial AV rooms, would be a smart thing to do.

Marco
07-02-2009, 14:26
There are situations where preventing having your system not exposed to airborne vibrations is quite a reasonable thing to do.


Absolutely, Clive. I'd love to have my whole system in a different room from the speakers (probably in adjacent rooms), for reasons we've been discussing, but until I move to a house where I can accommodate such notions it'll have to wait ;)

Marco.

NRG
07-02-2009, 14:33
Our sitting room / listening room backs on to our dining room through some double doors. My system resides in the dining room and the 'speakers reside in the sitting room. The 'speaker cables are 5m long (which is too much but they are fixed length) and I needed to cut a channel in the concrete floor under the doors where the two rooms meet and install a tread plate.

It was worth it the sound improved as a consequence...however, even in a semi isolated position I find what the kit sits on still influences the sound but to a lesser degree than before. So I'm a firm believer in the importance of isolation.

Clive
07-02-2009, 14:55
It was worth it the sound improved as a consequence...however, even in a semi isolated position I find what the kit sits on still influences the sound but to a lesser degree than before. So I'm a firm believer in the importance of isolation.
I expect that the equipment itself vibrates, even a SS amp due to the transformer if nothing else. I'd not be surprised if even totally isolated gear still needed some form of isolation. I'd hope as you've found out that the isolation requirements would be reduced.

Steve Toy
07-02-2009, 15:26
Components with transformers in them benefit from a good stand that can ground those vibrations from the transformer itself.

Mr. C
07-02-2009, 16:56
Why not totally isolate the transformer in the first place?, cost? or ..............;-)

Snoopdog
07-02-2009, 19:39
My system is Stillpointed to death!:)

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y76/crystalref/systemrack.jpg
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y76/crystalref/Elbrus3.jpg
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y76/crystalref/CJ350.jpg
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y76/crystalref/MITOracle.jpg
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y76/crystalref/room.jpg

Spectral Morn
07-02-2009, 23:53
The input of vibration into any component be it from an external source or even internal source can cause problems with the sound. It thus makes sense to address this as much as possible, even perhaps if you can't hear it. Take it on faith that its a factor and address it. Worry gone....or not as the case may be.

In my experience (so far) in general the effects from vibration are fairly, in regard to sound quality, subtle. And quite often the effect is cumulative through the entire system chain. As you work through your system, you can remove slight effects which as you go become greater than the sum of the parts addressed. You will notice slight improvements and differences with each individual action taken. However it is only when you remove all these extra tweaks(Isolation cones,platforms, tables etc), in one go that you will suddenly hear the, now very large effect of vibration on your system as a whole. Each step taken is small but builds into a large overall effect. Removing the cures leaves your once clear window very muddy indeed. Most don't ever bother to remove all their additions to hear just to what large extent all these extras were doing to cleaning up the sound. This goes for, mains leads, quality cables etc, also.

Only a few times have I heard a massive effect on a product when a possible cure was applied.

THE SHANLING CDT 100

http://www.zenn.com.sg/Shanling_CD_T100.JPG

This player was brought into the shop I worked in, on the basis of the good reviews it had got. Despite massive amounts of run in, it sounded broken. Something was wrong. I took it home one final time and placed it on a new isolation platform I had bought. A Clearlight Audio RDC platform. http://www.cheshireaudio.co.uk/acatalog/clearaudio_spp_platformmini.jpg

Suddenly the player sounded brilliant compared to how it had been before. I had never heard an effect as great as this ever before on any other product (shows just how easily vibration/surface it sits on effects this product, as is/was) It was a eureka moment. Then I reread one of the reviews and it had been placed on a Clearlight Audio table http://www.audiodestination.co.uk/bmz_cache/d/d47779d46a5ad383ad90d7166ffe1446.image.100x120.jpg Suddenly the results that had been got during the review made sense. On Monday in work I did the same procedure with my colleagues and the results were the same. It even sounded better being held in mid air...interesting that.

QUAD CLASSIC SERIES PRE-AMPLIFIER (looks similar to picture but in champagne gold) http://www.quad-hifi.co.uk/images/models/29/main.jpg

A week ago A friend invited me over to hear his set up. He had a Quad valve pre sitting on some books on a piano stool, below a number of Target wall brackets. He didn't have enough room to put the pre on a wall shelf. The sound of his set up was poor, it should have been better. I got him to listen to something he knew and while he was listening I snuck over to where the pre was and I picked it up. The sound changed dramatically...from the left side of the system i could here it change. He opened his eyes( I had been watching him. He was not aware of what I had done.) "What just happened ? "he asked. "The sound is so much more open and airy ....etc" When he saw I was holding the pre in the air. It dawned on him that what items sit on or don't can have a massive effect on the sound. He saw the light a born again believer in tables and isolation.

Normally, as I said earlier the effect is less obvious, sometimes you struggle to hear it other times its there but just not by much and then there are those eureka moments. I am with Marco on this everything matters.
There are areas I have yet to explore in my own set up...such as mains etc...Still waiting for that info Marco..

The journey is best traveled with eyes open, ears open and mind open...otherwise you will miss all the possible magic of the journey.

Regards D S D L----Neil :)

Beechwoods
08-02-2009, 00:13
That last story might just be enough to have me try some experiments, Neil! Thank you.

Spectral Morn
08-02-2009, 00:21
Hi Nick

It was one of those truly dramatic moments in audio...I wish I had had a camera to take a photo of my friends face...quite a picture. He is very wary of tweaks etc, not that I would call proper siting of your kit a tweak, but some do.


Regards D S D L ----Neil :)

Marco
08-02-2009, 00:26
Brilliant, Neil! You've restored my faith in human nature after a rather depressing series of interactions earlier with someone, erm, a little less open-minded than you, and then someone else jumping on the bandwagon for no justifiable reason...

See here (scroll back and have a read): http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?p=33807#post33807

Perhaps you could offer your opinion on that thread later as to what you think happened? I would value your opinion.

Anyway, well done. You're right - everything matters when it comes to assembling and setting up a hi-fi system: it's all about cumulative effect.


There are areas I have yet to explore in my own set up...such as mains etc...Still waiting for that info Marco..


Sorry, remind me again of what that was. You've no idea how many requests I get for stuff like this which I can't keep track of!

You're becoming quite an asset to the forum so keep up the good work :)

Marco.

Spectral Morn
08-02-2009, 00:35
Sorry, remind me again of what that was. You've no idea how many requests I get for stuff like this which I can't keep track of!

Marco.

HI Marco

It was about Star Earthing....possible layout for mains units and whether the MK unswitched unit from the Missing link is better than their own unit. Any links on the net which might give me a diagram to wire to.


You're becoming quite an asset to the forum so keep up the good work

Thank you, that means a lot.:):):):):):):):):)

Regards D S D L----Neil :)

Marco
08-02-2009, 00:51
Ah, it was in a PM you'd sent, wasn't it? I couldn't remember where it was you'd asked me! I'll deal with it now :)

Marco.

Steve Toy
08-02-2009, 04:43
Snoopdog,

Is that a Music Works ReJig I see in the third picture down? :)

What is that sitting on top of it?

Also, that's some serious hi-fi rack you've got going on there. It looks like it has been designed to do the job!

Steve Toy
08-02-2009, 05:18
Everything Matters (or nothing makes a difference)

Last year, back in March I went to Coherent Systems to audition the Bel Canto CD2, the Puresound A30 valve amplifier, different Focal speakers and a range of Coherent cables. For comparison purposes I brought my own cables - Music Works Recoil leads, Siltech SQ 28 interconnects and Chord Epic Twin speaker cable. For the same reason I also brought the Linn Majik CD player and Spectral DMC-15 preamplifier I had at the time.

The kit was placed on Townshend racks.

Tony tried to demonstrate his range of cables to me including mains leads, interconnects and speaker cables but the sound continued to be 2-dimensional and rather harsh at the top end. None of the cable swaps seemed to any difference at all.

At this point it would have been easy to conclude that cables make no difference because in this instance they clearly did not.

I was already a cable believer by this time and I was not prepared just to sweep away all previous experience in light of no differences now being heard. Instead I was rather puzzled but thought that the system wasn't exactly sounding right to begin with. The harshness at the top end was clearly masking a lot of information both in the music and in the system setup. What was effectively distortion masked harmonics and natural decay of notes as well as denying the listener the requisite high frequency info to perceive imaging and space between instruments.

It was a case of finding the bottleneck which, it turns out, was the Spectral preamp not liking to be placed on the glass shelves of the Townsend rack. A few sets of Black Ravioli pads were placed under the pre and immediately the top end harshness disappeared and all the info masked behind this distortion just opened up.

Now every cable swap was clearly audible as was the benefit of placing Black Ravioli under each and every component in the system and the Bel Canto CD player was now demonstrably superior to the Linn player in every respect.

So, those of you not detecting differences at all in your experiments should perhaps investigate any potential bottlenecks before reaching any (hasty) conclusions. This applies to isolation methods as well as to the use of different cables.

The Black Ravioi themselves seem to work exceptionally well in conjunction with Townshend racks They also work under the Bel Canto on the acrylic QS Ref stand but the difference is less marked. Some may even feel that the more subtle change isn't even an improvement. I personally feel that it is for the perceived loss of dynamics to my perception is just a loss of stridency and a gain in refinement. Dynamic contrasts remain intact or are even slightly enhanced in my opinion.

Snoopdog
08-02-2009, 10:38
Snoopdog,

Is that a Music Works ReJig I see in the third picture down? :)

What is that sitting on top of it?

Also, that's some serious hi-fi rack you've got going on there. It looks like it has been designed to do the job!

Hi Steve,

I bought those cheap plastic shop display stands from Clarkes shoe shop for £10. They told me they had supplied a load to a guy called Larry up Cheshire way somewhere and he sells them for hi fi use but adds a zero to the price:)

They support the network boxes for the MIT Magnum MA speaker cables I use.

The very fine equipment rack is the Stillpoints ESS 405, but not the uber-expensive latest incarnation which has Stillpoints built into each individual shelf.

I have recently reduced my box count by having the upgrade MC/MM phono stage fitted to my Karan KA-L Reference MK II preamp and the top shelf of the stand now awaits the arrival of a new turntable/arm/cartridge:gig:

Steve

Marco
08-02-2009, 10:43
I bought those cheap plastic shop display stands from Clarkes shoe shop for £10. They told me they had supplied a load to a guy called Larry up Cheshire way somewhere and he sells them for hi fi use but adds a zero to the price


Brilliant!! :lol: :D

Marco.

Marco
08-02-2009, 12:29
So, those of you not detecting differences at all in your experiments should perhaps investigate any potential bottlenecks before reaching any (hasty) conclusions. This applies to isolation methods as well as to the use of different cables.


Exactly, Steve. The problem is that some people just aren't willing to be thorough and 'go the extra mile' with these things - they arrive at definitive conclusions all too quickly and then seem to set their opinions in stone for life. You'll never learn anything new that way (or perhaps anything at all) which could be beneficial, but then perhaps some folk just aren't interested in that? We're back to comfort zones again, or maybe some people are just more easily pleased than others...

Marco.

Peter Stockwell
12-02-2009, 11:42
It all makes a difference, even the abscence or presence of net curtains in front of windows! (Don't know if the same applies for a mac ;) )

niklasthedolphin
12-02-2009, 12:04
I'm confused.

Why are there two threads adressing the same issue??

Anyway, cabledressing is a lot more, and for sure more importantly, dealing with other issues than microphony.

"dolph"

Marco
12-02-2009, 12:29
Hi Dolph,

This thread is simply an extension of the other one running in The Artist's Palette. Steve wanted to gauge people's opinion on the matter by starting a poll in the most frequently read area of the forum, that's all :)

Marco.

Mr. C
12-02-2009, 12:39
Microphony plays a very large part in how systems can sound.
External air pressure vibrations also do the same, as does ground bourne interference.
Remove as much of this as possible, and you are well on the way to a far more enjoyable and realistic sound (imho)