View Full Version : Open Minded vs Experienced & Levels of Interest
We seem to go through a repeating sequence of posters being encouraged to be open minded and there are discussions involving what some see as vital setup tweaks and others see as “Belt-ist” voodoo. I have some thoughts about why we go around these merry-go-rounds.
Open Minded
I suspect that the vast majority of members on AoS are open minded or they wouldn’t have joined a discussion forum. Being open minded does not however preclude you from using your experience to make an assessment the latest tweak or wonder product. If tweaks or products are far outside your experience then your options are to either ignore them because you don’t have any inclination to investigate or gain direct experience.
What sometimes seems to be ignored in the onslaught to open mindedness is that many of us have played with these tweaks in then past. Where once we were prepared to try anything, in certain areas we have now gained experience as to what we find useful or otherwise. Life is like this, you learn and gain experience, you then extrapolate from that experience.
Levels of Interest
We all have differing skill levels and motivations. For example we have posters who:
- design, produce and sell equipment
- design circuits for diy building
- diy building and tweaking of electronics
- developing and building turntables
- speaker experimenters, builders and tweakers
- resolute non-diyers
Our level of interest in tinkering with equipment and setup relates to our skill level. Early on in our hi-fi exploits no doubt most of us tried many types of equipment and discovered favourite setup approaches. As time goes by it’s likely that you focus on areas that are related to you skill level or comfort zone. For me that’s been tweaking sound with component changes, design tweaks etc, these for me provide a far greater payback than playing with cables (just one example), playing with DSP has also been most instructive. Someone like Stan can design a complete and complex circuit, so his scope and level of tweaking is at a different level. For those resolute non-diyers all tweaking internal to equipment has to be done for them or be external to the individual pieces of kit. Hence a focus of cables, supports etc.
So…..we all have differing levels of interest that are at least partially dictated by our skill level and experience.
Light blue touchpaper and retire…..
StanleyB
06-02-2009, 17:35
I am not sure what you are driving at:scratch:. The last time I touched blue paper it was in the 70's and Deep Purple was in the charts. There were also reds etc. Is it that type of open mind and tinkering that you are one about?:smoking:
Stan
I think it is much simpler than that, both sides of the postings misunderstand what the other is saying, and then reply to it. And to make it even simpler both sides are right, because neither can hear what the other does.
Ali Tait
06-02-2009, 18:40
An erudite and well thought-out post Clive,couldn't agree more.
Steve Toy
06-02-2009, 20:39
I think there are misunderstandings and nobody here is telling lies about their experiences.
Ali Tait
06-02-2009, 21:12
Quite right Steve,I think IMHO it's just a matter of personal perspective on these things.I freely admit to leaning more towards Clive's opinion on this issue,but that's only because of my own personal experience as a (Minor!) fiddler of these lovely glowy bottley type things some of us enjoy mucking about with.The thing is,I see exactly where he is coming from.We've been through this many times before on this board.The fact is,if you are happy to change,say,a coupling capacitor yourself in a valve amp that you own,you will get a far greater difference in sound than you get from changing a cable etc.Not to say that changing cables doesn't make a difference,it does! It's just that the difference a new cable makes pales in comparison to the changing of a coupling cap or a nice NOS valve.My gear resides on an old coffee table.My main worry is will the table collapse under the 50 kg plus of my system! Fancy racks are the least of my worries! :)
Steve Toy
06-02-2009, 21:34
I have experimented with changing valves too. It all has an impact.
you could probably draw a graph of this :-
Open Mindedness(x) vs Experience(y) vs Level of Interest(z)
but I'm not sure what it will tell us
Steve Toy
07-02-2009, 04:23
A lack of interest or even an admission that the WAF factor or other domestic/aesthetic considerations are going to get in the way of maximum performance is not likely to be cause for undue comment. Folks are either interested in taking their systems to the nth degree of resolving power or they are not.
What I'm rather suspicious of in some cases is the sour grapes where folks can't be really honest about what is standing in their way.
I think I'm going to run a poll in Blank Canvass on this.........
Clive,
Interesting thread!
Being open minded does not however preclude you from using your experience to make an assessment the latest tweak or wonder product.
Indeed, but I would always test and listen to the tweak or "wonder product" first in my own system before forming a definitive conclusion on their efficacy or not. Simply using one's experience to automatically judge things without actually trying them is in my opinion a recipe for missing potentially interesting new discoveries, as the variables in each application are always different.
If tweaks or products are far outside your experience then your options are to either ignore them because you don’t have any inclination to investigate or gain direct experience.
Everything interests me, so I never rule out anything in hi-fi, and therefore I'm always keen to learn new things which could enrich my enjoyment of music, hence why I'm pursuing my interest in the Bastanis. I had never heard open baffle speakers before I attended the Owston D.I.Y fests, but they most certainly piqued my interest when I did! Therefore I had to investigate further and find out more about them.
If I had just thought to myself "Open baffles? Nah, they can't work" based on whatever prejudices I might have had, and dismissed them accordingly without listening to them, then I would have missed out on experiencing the undoubted magic they possess and the possibility of then introducing them into my own system.
Now obviously the sonic characteristics of loudspeakers have a much more profound effect on a hi-fi system than cables or stands, but as far as I'm concerned every detail matters and stands and cables have got their own job to do in a different area, which I consider as being fundamentally important. It's about the cumulative effect of everything - all the little things that make subtle differences add up and consequently their effect in totality on music reproduced by a system is significant. Like I've said, the devil is in the details! ;)
What sometimes seems to be ignored in the onslaught to open mindedness is that many of us have played with these tweaks in then past. Where once we were prepared to try anything, in certain areas we have now gained experience as to what we find useful or otherwise. Life is like this, you learn and gain experience, you then extrapolate from that experience.
It's fine to do that of course, and quite natural, but I feel that it sets a dangerous precedent where one can end up arrogantly pooh-poohing things with an 'I know it all' attitude because you've done it before when if fact there could still be something new to learn. Hi-fi set-ups and rooms where tweaks (or whatever) are evaluated are never identical and so therefore the effects of tweaks, etc, must be determined on an individual basis, and their merits or otherwise, too, accordingly. In summary, I 'never say never' with anything in hi-fi.
We're all different, Clive - that's just my take on things; yours is equally as valid :)
Marco.
It's fine to do that of course, and quite natural, but I feel that it sets a dangerous precedent where one can end up arrogantly pooh-poohing things with an 'I know it all' attitude because you've done it before when if fact there could still be something new to learn. Hi-fi set-ups and rooms where tweaks (or whatever) are evaluated are never identical and so therefore should be assessed on an individual basis, and their merits or otherwise accordingly. In summary, I 'never say never' with anything in hi-fi.
Hi Marco, you conveniently ignored "Being open minded does not however preclude you from using your experience to make an assessment the latest tweak or wonder product. If tweaks or products are far outside your experience then your options are to either ignore them because you don’t have any inclination to investigate or gain direct experience."
Being open minded does not mean being empty headed. If I have try some thing just because someone says it works then I won't have any sort of a life, I'll spend my time trying things, many of which won't work. If say you should attach 3 felt dots to the crankcase of your car engine because it'll make it run smoother, would you? Or...I have this great business idea, come and invest, be my Dragon. Like in the Dragon's Den, would you use your experience to assess the opportunity or would you make an investment to see if it works out?
Yes be open minded to new ideas and concepts but use your experience to develop your learning and opinions. If we had the mythical 3 second memory of a Goldfish then we would have to try out every idea. Fortunately evolution has done something for us.
Slavish so-called open mindedness is no better that the brain washing that Linn used to rely upon. I would define this as arrogant and know-it-all behaviour as well as manipulative and "I must be right". Being open minded in vital to a productive and interesting life but you've also got to use some common sense and experience. This is not black or white.
The Grand Wazoo
07-02-2009, 11:42
If we had the mythical 3 second memory of a Goldfish then we would have to try out every idea.
Actually I think If we had the mythical 3 second memory of a Goldfish we'd only try out one idea, but lots of times.
The Grand Wazoo
07-02-2009, 11:43
Actually I think If we had the mythical 3 second memory of a Goldfish we'd only try out one idea, but lots of times.
The Grand Wazoo
07-02-2009, 11:45
Actually if we had.........
ok, ok, so i'm a goldfish
jandl100
07-02-2009, 11:45
:)
Clive,
You're rather missing my point.
If I have try some thing just because someone says it works then I won't have any sort of a life, I'll spend my time trying things, many of which won't work.
Of course, I agree.
What I meant was that you use your experience to determine which tweaks, etc, are worth investigating in the first place - *BUT*, and this is the crucial bit, at the same time not allowing any prejudices or 'blind faith' in your previous experiences to adversely influence your decision to investigate. Do you appreciate the distinction?
Quite simply, just because something you tried before didn't make any difference in one application doesn't automatically mean that the same will apply in another.
As far as I'm concerned with these sorts of things I will often act on the recommendation of someone's ears I trust, such as those of a friend. I certainly though couldn't give a monkey's what some so-called 'scientific experts' say on the matter.
If say you should attach 3 felt dots to the crankcase of your car engine because it'll make it run smoother, would you? Or...I have this great business idea, come and invest, be my Dragon. Like in the Dragon's Den, would you use your experience to assess the opportunity or would you make an investment to see if it works out?
Now we're getting ridiculous, but I take your point - I hope you can see mine. What I'm trying to get at here is that there are some very blinkered people around whose deeply-ingrained prejudices (usually scientifically orientated) prevent them from being open-minded enough to entertain trying things in hi-fi which go against their belief system. I'm sure you have encountered people like this yourself so you should know exactly what I'm referring to.
Quite simply, close-minded people like that will never get the best out of their hi-fi systems and in turn the most from their music.
Being open minded in vital to a productive and interesting life but you've also got to use some common sense and experience. This is not black or white.
Indeed - I couldn't agree more. Very little in life is ever black or white, and the exact same goes for anything in hi-fi...
Marco.
OK, Marco - I think we've cleared the air and are pretty much in agreement!
Steve Toy
07-02-2009, 15:35
Mark still holds firm on things having to fit in with his theory else he won't investigate them in practice.
Bees can't fly!
Indeed. No offence to Mark - he's entitled to think how he likes, but it's a mindset I will never be able to understand. I suspect though he thinks the same of us. Wouldn’t it be a boring world if we were all the same? :lol:
Marco.
Which Mark is being discussed? There's more than one around here.
Confucious say...
Open mindedness comes from life and experience.:)
Steve Toy
07-02-2009, 21:03
experience here suggests otherwise ;)
Mark still holds firm on things having to fit in with his theory else he won't investigate them in practice.
Bees can't fly!
Grammar aside - that's where you are wrong. Today I spent two hours (a bit more I think) experimenting with putting foam under my interconnects and mains cables. I have tried this in the past but in the interests of open minded investigation I tried it all again (a bit more thoroughly this time). Forums are full of individuals who will only believe in an improvement if it can be proved with an oscilloscope; I am certainly not one of these people. However, I also don't believe everything that I am told - I try it first, if it works for me I use it. If it does not work I do not use it and if I hear no evidence to support it I disbelieve, until I hear further evidence.
I would also add that I don't discuss other forum members in threads in which they are not participating. Gentlemen, you believe whatever you like, it makes no difference to me and I am quite happy; but you won't catch me writing snide comments about you behind your back, please reciprocate.
Steve Toy
07-02-2009, 23:23
I am glad you replied Mark.
I will respond later.
Indeed. I'm glad that Mark has responded, too. Mark, I apologise for any remark of mine which you felt was snide.
We just like people to have the gumption to stand up and defend their opinions but also be willing to admit that their opinions may need reassessing at some point when new information becomes available which renders their previous beliefs obsolete, instead of stubbornly thinking that they know all there is to know about the subject concerned and giving up when their opinions are challenged and the going gets tough, like unfortunately we've seen some people do today.
Basically, all we ask is for some open-mindedness to be shown towards opinions which are contrary to your own, which you have demonstrated, and therefore you deserve respect for that :)
Today I spent two hours (a bit more I think) experimenting with putting foam under my interconnects and mains cables. I have tried this in the past but in the interests of open minded investigation I tried it all again (a bit more thoroughly this time).
So what happened then this time? ;)
Marco.
Steve Toy
08-02-2009, 05:51
Mark,
My comments made comparing to the logic that bumble bees cannot fly were with reference to the following you said on the Interconnects touching the wall ??thread in the Artist's Palette:
I am well aware of the mechanism you believe to be at work. I hesitated from directly making a criticism, but as you insist; I have 'thought' about the mechanism you describe and frankly I would urge you to 'think about it' a little more. If you do, I am sure you will realise how tiny the energy levels are that you describe.
OK, re.the issue of discussing forum members in other threads, I appreciate the fact that you may have missed my comments here and therefore not have been in a position to respond to them.
However, we have three threads running on this very topic, including the poll, so the likelihood of you seeing my comment about you (or rather in response to something you said) was a near certainty. In any case, it was the particular argument of yours above I was refering to not you as an individual, so I felt no real offence could have been caused to you other than the small possibility of you missing the chance to reply.
Putting my admin hat on for a sec, we see no wrong at all in fiercely attacking arguments but we obviously draw a line at attacking or the individual behind them. I do not believe for one second that anyone on any of these threads has crossed this line.
I'd like to bring to your attention this post I wrote here on the poll thread if you are conducting any microphony experiments:
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=2030&page=4 Post #32.
kalozois100
08-02-2009, 09:41
you could probably draw a graph of this :-
Open Mindedness(x) vs Experience(y) vs Level of Interest(z)
but I'm not sure what it will tell us
I have read the threads after this one with great interest. As well the x,y,z above i think there is the major factor of cost. I have the same components for 18 years and have not changed (turtable, amp, speakers) not because they are great but because i was never in a position to afford upgrades. I deeply value other members experiences in upgrades and tweeking. i am new to this forum and is the only one i write in . Someone buys a car and then changes it every 2 years but the other hangs onto his for 15. Both moves have positive and negative aspects. Alot of the equipment other members refer to I ve never heard before because i decided i bought a system and got on with listening to music on it and didnt keep up to date with new offerings from manufacturers. If I have come accross as arrogant in my posts it wasn't intended and i appologise for that . i could have had upgrades to power supplies , arms , stylus, circuit boards amps pre amps, speakers the list is endless and i respect those who have gone down that path and used their money wisely. However im not going to feel bad for leaving my system be for all those years. For me it would have mean't sacrifices such as world travel, photograghy,eating out and being a home owner. -experiences that hold my hand when I'm relaxed and listening to music and the sound reminds me of a happy time. Its all a matter of relativity:- improvements=costs = A big grin because audio is so much better= missing out on something else.
I can understand the going round in circles comment in the first thread and thats its fustrating for senior members but its a phenomenon that's unavoidable if you are to accept new members to this forum - Probably What i said above has already been said a dozen times before. I just haven't come across it as yet.
I'm i open minded? I think so but only as far as my budget allows. It was within the financial boundaries( which i set personally and is unique to each aos member) to upgrade the tc7510 to mod21 part 1 and 2 but not to replace it with say a chord 64!!
As for misunderstandings, look at it positively as say working together to build a bridge from one side to another. Initially there is distortion in the form miscommunication until both parties empathises with each others ideas, feelings on the task in hand.
I just wish i could give back to this forum as much as it has to me but thats impossible because the sum of all the aos members knowledge and experiences has created another entity for all to experience and something to be proud of........wisdom.:)
Prince of Darkness
11-02-2009, 11:35
Bees can't fly!
http://www.news.cornell.edu/releases/March00/APS_wang.hrs.html
:lolsign:
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