Timestep psu for the SL1200 [Archive] - The Art of Sound Forum

chris@panteg

03-02-2009, 01:30

Separate power supplies for audio components are nothing new' in fact almost mandatory in some kit such as pre amp's or phono stages etc.

I regard a good outboard psu in turntables as critical ' and with the Technics SL1200 series of turntables even more so, you see the the reason i am writing this is to try and put into words at how the new timestep psu by Dave Cawley
has improved my SL1210.

Installation could not be easier really roughly a 20 min job perhaps one soldered joint, one small point the strobe light stays on after the mod.

So how does it sound ' well after playing a few familiar tracks the music sounds more fluid and much more open, on complex music it appears more calm or less busy ' i tried a wide selection of music ' too young from Nat King Cole' best of ' sounded utterly gorgeous.

I tried some of my small collection of Jazz ' Ben Sidran Bop city' yes please feel free to laugh at this one, Patricia barber Cafe blue and Jacintha ' here's to Ben ' this recording is all analogue using vintage valve microphones and it sounded wonderful ' kei Akagi's piano playing had me spellbound.

Stella by Yello is pure audio pyrotechnics and on the 1210/timestep i noticed greater dynamics with extra slam and a more sparkling top end.

Idlewild by everything but the girl is a current fave of mine and i noticed something different about the timing of rhythms here' again it seemed more fluid more coherent' Ben Watt's vocals on the night i heard caruso sing had much greater clarity and depth.

I will try and add more comments later as i have only been listening for a few days but i would urge anyone with a 1200/1210 to give Dave Cawley's PSU a try once you hear it you will not want to go back, no more hum either which is another thing i almost forgot.

So in short then this is not a cheap upgrade but i think critical in getting the best from the techy.

Gromit

03-02-2009, 09:18

Thanks for that Chris - am very much looking forward to receiving mine later this week. :)

I actually made quite an important little discovery last night - something had been bothering me about the Technics which, to start with, I couldn't quite put my finger on. You know what it ended up being? It runs slow. Seriously.

I'll explain...

I'm blessed/hindered (delete as applicable) with perfect pitch which I've had tested to A442 (ie A in concert pitch is 440Hz). This means that my natural pitch recognition sits slightly above the recognised norm - saying that though, some orchestras (in the US for example) will tune to 442. All I've done is move the pitch slider to plus 0.5 (approx) and it sounds better. The harmonics have become more natural for starters and it now sounds more correct.

Anyway - sorry for the slight hijack. :)

Peter Stockwell

03-02-2009, 10:12

I'm blessed/hindered (delete as applicable) with perfect pitch which I've had tested to A442 (ie A in concert pitch is 440Hz). This means that my natural pitch recognition sits slightly above the recognised norm - saying that though, some orchestras (in the US for example) will tune to 442. All I've done is move the pitch slider to plus 0.5 (approx) and it sounds better. The harmonics have become more natural for starters and it now sounds more correct.

Anyway - sorry for the slight hijack. :)

The well tempered technics, eh ?

I'm looking forward to your view on the timestep, my view of the KAB PSU sits pretty closely to Chris's remarks. More ease, clearer presentation into the mid range, where the music is. Plus, rock solid timing. i.e. great acceleration and phenomenal breaking.

jonners

03-02-2009, 10:15

I actually made quite an important little discovery last night - something had been bothering me about the Technics which, to start with, I couldn't quite put my finger on. You know what it ended up being? It runs slow. Seriously.

Richard - Are you saying the deck doesn't run at 33.33 rpm? I think not. You are raising the pitch to where you feel more comfortable but you are also now playing everything at a fractionally faster tempo than it was recorded. So I don't think it's accurate to say the deck runs slow.
The only way to raise the pitch without increasing the speed would be by digital processing!:eek:

John

Gromit

03-02-2009, 10:23

John - please re-read what I put. ;)

My perfect pitch (ie my natural pitch) which is, to be honest, a pain in the arse at times, 'hears' concert A at 442Hz. That's slightly above what is usually considered to be normal (European orchestras tend to tune to A440). Raising the pitch on the Technics makes it sound more natural to my ear. When set to 0 the 1210 sounds slow (ie flat in pitch) to me. The increase in tempo by using the pitch slider is negligible and I doubt anyone without a stop watch would even notice it.

Trying it out on the missus yesterday evening (she's also a professional clarinettist) she could detect the very slight raise in pitch but because it didn't affect her hearing in the same way, she wasn't at all troubled by it.

Peter Stockwell

03-02-2009, 10:29

Trying it out on the missus yesterday evening (she's also a professional clarinettist) she could detect the very slight raise in pitch but because it didn't affect her hearing in the same way, she wasn't at all troubled by it.

Yes, in discussions with pro-musicians, they can tell when musicans are taking liberties with the pitch, stuff I can't articulate. I was listening to some Lucinda Wiliams a while back, and my friends noticed on one song that she was "almost" flat, and that on the next she was spot on. So I can "see" what you are getting at.

I take it you enjoyed the time you spent with Rega TTs ? They are reputed to run a little hot.

cheers

Gromit

03-02-2009, 10:49

Yes, in discussions with pro-musicians, they can tell when musicans are taking liberties with the pitch, stuff I can't articulate. I was listening to some Lucinda Wiliams a while back, and my friends noticed on one song that she was "almost" flat, and that on the next she was spot on. So I can "see" what you are getting at.

I take it you enjoyed the time yous pent with Reag TTs ? They are reputed to run a little hot.

cheers

Peter - good point re the Regas. :)

Strangely though, some seem worse/better than others. My dad's old Planar 3 is pretty much spot-on (this it to my ear I should add!) but a standard P5 I heard was a tad over the top. Adding the psu calmed it down to where I liked it though.

Something to try - play a record and slide the adjuster to approx '+0.5%' and you'll see what I mean. It's noticable, not a lot, but does make a difference.

I should add it's not an artificial tweaking of the pitch to make it sound snappier, but for me it makes a difference in terms of it making the deck sound more natural.

jonners

03-02-2009, 11:23

John - please re-read what I put. ;)

OK, I re-read what you put. You put: "It runs slow. Seriously." If you had said it sounds slow - that would have been different. ;) Am I being pedantic here?

John

Gromit

03-02-2009, 11:47

;) Am I being pedantic here?

John

You are John, but I'd be just the same tbh. ;)

Actually I re-read it myself and thought 'eh?' but hopefully I've explained it better later on. :)

I'll put it down to one of those moments, you know the ones when the missus says 'I know what I said'. :D

Peter Stockwell

03-02-2009, 11:50

I'll put it down to one of those moments, you know the ones when the missus says 'I know what I said'. :D

More like, I know what I meant ;)

jonners

03-02-2009, 12:15

You are John, but I'd be just the same tbh. ;)

Great. I'll take pedantry a bit further on: An pitch increase from 440 to 442 is just over 0.4%. A speed increase of 0.4% will make a 20min. LP side about six seconds shorter. Hell, you're losing out on twelve seconds of pleasure per LP!! :band:
John

Edit: More accurate calculations give loss of 10.9 secs per LP. Not quite as bad as I thought!

Gromit

03-02-2009, 13:00

More like, I know what I meant ;)

That's the one Peter!! :lolsign:

Gromit

03-02-2009, 13:02

Great. I'll take pedantry a bit further on: An pitch increase from 440 to 442 is just over 0.4%. A speed increase of 0.4% will make a 20min. LP side about six seconds shorter. Hell, you're losing out on twelve seconds of pleasure per LP!! :band:
John

Edit: More accurate calculations give loss of 10.9 secs per LP. Not quite as bad as I thought!

Quality post!! :smoking:

(ever felt the need to get out more John??) ;)

jonners

03-02-2009, 13:05

(ever felt the need to get out more John??) ;)

Good advice. I'll go and take a walk in the snow. I may be gone some time.....

Johmn

Gromit

04-02-2009, 11:52

It's here - time to dig out the soldering iron. :)

chris@panteg

07-02-2009, 20:03

OK a quick update

Not had a chance to listen during the week, but did some more listening today,

Patricia Barber Companion

Marvin Gaye What's going on

Jacintha the look of love 12' single

Siouxsie and the banshees peep show

After hearing these few album's i would say the timestep is not a subtle difference it is a jaw to the floor upgrade, the extra clarity' much more depth'
fluid bass lines and incredible low level detail.

One point i need to make is this is not your typical romantic vinyl sound,
it sounds utterly neutral.

The timestep is IMHO an even bigger upgrade than the lingo was for the lp12.

Well done to Dave Cawley

if you have a 1200 you just have to get one of these' find the cash somehow.

Marco

09-02-2009, 09:19

Nice one, Chris :)

Adding a high quality PSU to the Techy is a no-brainer upgrade and is essential in order for the deck to achieve its full potential, which as you know is quite considerable! :gig:

At some point I must do a back to back comparison between the Time Step and the PS-1200.

Enjoy!

Marco.

chris@panteg

09-02-2009, 10:58

Thanks Marco

Yes indeed ' you know its difficult for me to put into words just how much better
this is but put simply its just come to life and sounds so together. :)

Gromit

09-02-2009, 16:55

Well done to Dave Cawley
if you have a 1200 you just have to get one of these' find the cash somehow.

Totally agree Chris - I was >this< close to selling my 1210 on before I got the Time Step, simply because it just sounded so uninvolving, lacking real direction/momentum/rhythmic realism. Adding the psu saw an immediate improvement (basically wiped out these negative observations at a stroke) and improved over its first 48 hours to where it has now flattened off.

If you have any plans at all to do just one upgrade to the 1210, for heaven's sake get the psu sorted. A total outlay for a new 1210 & TimeStep would be around £650 which is a joke for something this good. Then decide what you want to do re arms etc. The old adage of 'the turntable (ie the bit that goes round) is the most important bit in the chain' rings true here, no argument IMO.

I'm running mine now with the Lyra Dorian in the std arm (which on the surface of it seems like total overkill, but it really does work!) and it sounds just fabulous.

If I end up selling the 1210 at least I'll now know what can be done, for a relatively small outlay, to turn it into something that plays music properly.

Marco

09-02-2009, 21:21

Gromit

09-02-2009, 22:08

Great stuff, Richard. It's really a joy to hear you saying that given, as you say, how close you were to selling it... :)

In my experience the quality of the PSU in any piece of hi-fi equipment is fundamentally the most important thing - everything else follows on from that.

It's interesting though how well the Dorian seems to be performing in the stock arm. I thought this was up at Johnnie's being 'pimped' or have you changed your mind on that one? :smoking:

Marco.

Marco - I haven't sent the arm up to Johnnie yet as I really haven't had a lot of time to un-bolt it again. I must get round to it as I'd like to have it back for the show. Yup - a 500 quid needle in a 'throw-away arm'. Shurely shome mishtake :D

I'm not 100% sure I'm taking the Pioneer yet, simply because I think its regulator board might need re-capping. It could be down to our shite mains down here but if I run the power amps hard (as I was doing on saturday when a couple of mates popped round for a listen) the turntable's speed tends to wander. Running a light load on the mains and it's fine after it's settled down - takes approx 2 mins of running to settle, after which I leave it turning.

Talking to a mate of mine (who installs studio mixing desks so knows his way around electronics) he just reckons the caps on the regulator board need replacing as the board is struggling to deliver a constant current to the motor circuit. He's going to have a look at it but is snowed under with work at the moment. I'll be gutted if it doesn't go to the show - it might even put a few multi-£££k turntable owners' noses out of joint (not that that's reason to take it...oh no...honest...really) ;) Still the Tecchy's a superb back-up and if it creates some interest in the Time Step I'll be happy for Dave as it's a cracking product he's got here. Shame it's not possible to do a 'with/without' dem on the psu as its effect on the std turntable is uncanny...putting it mildly. :)

Ditto the PSU thing - every single component I've owned has benefited from better supply. I think the biggest surprise I ever had was going from a DualVI supply (into an Exposure XI pre) then getting the full-blown IX PMS. Amazing - it seems not all 24v DC are created equal. :D As John Farlowe said - an amplifier is 80% power supply, 20% amplifier. Jeez I often miss that Exposure rig. Bloody fool to sell it - it'd be worth double what I sold it for now. :(

Dave Cawley

09-02-2009, 23:22

Do you have the Pioneer service manual? I could re-work it in 3 hours?

Dave

Gromit

10-02-2009, 09:08

Do you have the Pioneer service manual? I could re-work it in 3 hours?

Dave

Hi Dave - thanks for the kind offer to have a look at the turntable. I don't have the service manual unfortunately, and VinylEngine only has the instruction manual which doesn't contain any schematics.

I'm going to get the psu caps changed to start with anyway, and we'll see how things go from there.

Dave Cawley

10-02-2009, 10:54

Hi Richard

OK, but changing things at random, without looking to see if everything is truly functioning as it should, is risky. Also you will never know if it is working properly, for example most SP-10's are faulty and do not work to their original speciation. Imagine a car never serviced for 25 years, how well would it go? But without the manual you are stuck, have you trawled the net and eBay ?

Regards

Dave

Ritch

10-02-2009, 11:27

Also you will never know if it is working properly, for example most SP-10's are faulty and do not work to their original speciation.

Wow, that is a pretty sweeping statement, can you qualify it? I'm looking to start off my vinyl journey with a good (if not new) example of the SL-1200 or 1210 and would also consider buying an SP-10 if the price was right. Now you have me worried if I should bother looking at all.

Marco

10-02-2009, 12:07

OK, but changing things at random, without looking to see if everything is truly functioning as it should, is risky. Also you will never know if it is working properly, for example most SP-10's are faulty and do not work to their original speciation. Imagine a car never serviced for 25 years, how well would it go?

Indeed!

That's a very interesting post, Dave, and confirms what I've always suspected of about 95% of SP10s on the market, and that is none of them will be performing optimally because of their age!

If I had any lingering thoughts about buying an SP10 in the future they've all now but evaporated.

Of course, from what you're saying, you have the necessary information and are in a position to fix most things and service them, I would presume, but until you examine the respective units the owners won't know just how badly their SP10s have drifted from original specification, how much it will cost to return them thus, and indeed whether they've bought a total 'pig in a poke' that's beyond rescue in the first place...

Forget it - way too risky!!

The message quite clearly is to buy a nice new SL-1200 or 1210 and send it to you to be fully modified, including fitting a new high quality arm, which will then result in you getting 95% (your figures) of the performance of an optimally performing SP10 but in a nice new, shiny, 100% reliable package - job done :cool:

It's simply not worth all the headache and grief for gaining a (possible) extra 5% of performance.

Marco.

Dave Cawley

10-02-2009, 13:24

Guys

I'm in a lucky position, here is one corner of my lab www.soundhifi.com/test.html . I have original service manuals for all the variants of SP-10's and even an original sales brochure. I have spent days assimilating all that makes an SP-10 what it is. I have refurbished about 5 SP-10's so far, and every one was not performing as intended. But I would not expect that of 'any' 25 year old electronic turntable.

My fees for refurbishment are here www.SP-10MKII.com and I guarantee my work. Also, we don't advertise, but we sell fully re-worked and guaranteed SP-10's, but they are way more than eBay prices!

Dave

Marco

10-02-2009, 13:46

Now there's a service and a half!

I'll create a dedicated area of the forum for the above, copy and paste it in there, and make it a sticky to act as a reference for all our members and guests :)

Marco.

Ritch

10-02-2009, 16:06

Marco

10-02-2009, 16:12

Sorry, Ritch, I'm not with you. Dave can not only supply new 1200 or 1210s, but also service SP10s and sell fully refurbished examples of SP10s.

In what way does this not cover your question? :scratch:

We're here to help so let us know what info you need and we'll do our best to assist :)

Marco.

Spectral Morn

10-02-2009, 17:30

Oh well no answer to my question just a load of blatant self advertising and cynicism. Sad to see. I'm young and probably naive. Just starting out on my audio odyssey it would be nice for those older and wiser to give encouragement to us young 'uns. Far be it for me to offer advice but I'll pose my final question: Forget all this bull about which piece of equipment is better and who does it better. What's wrong with just listening to and enjoying the music?

HI Ritch

I have read your posts and while I am not able to offer any comment on the question you asked, I am struggling to understand why you want to "I'm out of here too." (where did that go?)

AOS is very different to other forums like Hi-Fi wig wam, ZG, PFM etc in that this is a friendly place for the trade. On other forums trade are locked in a box unable to speak, share their thoughts, knowledge etc as "its all suspect, and they are the enemy don't you know." On AOS its the opposite trade are welcome to post and thread start and take part in discussions freely unless they start to play games and bad mouth other items in favour of their own. This would see admin stepping in (right guys). If a claim could be substantiated that might be different. Many, if not all of the guys who post here, including admin and the forum owner are hi-fi enthusiasts and I for one I'm glad that they feel free to recommend those in the trade who offer good to great service or warn about those who don't (caveats are always given to keep a balance). I know its easy to be cynical about people and situations you don't know about, but I can assure you this is one of the most friendly and helpful forums I know of. I have been here since NOV last year and in that time I have been given advice, stuff for free, a lot of encouragement and I feel valued here....oh yes there have been a few little spats and miss understandings but that happens in life, even virtual life. My experiences else where are not that good. I know you don't know me...so I have no credibility with you but I would ask that you reconsider. AOS is a good place to be, there is plenty to learn and share. You say you are new, so what. I would bet you have plenty to enrich us all with and the forum in general in many areas we don't yet know about.

Anyway Ritch for what its worth please give AOS a bit longer. It may ultimately not be for you, but you may never know if you don't hang around.

Regards D S D L----Neil :)

Marco

10-02-2009, 17:45

Neil, the voice of sanity and reason as usual! Thanks for you kind words - as you know we try to do our best :)

I deleted the part of Ritch's post that you're referring to as I'm getting a bit fed up lately with people chucking their toys out of their pram when they feel that things aren't going exactly the way they want!

This is not necessarily any reflection on Ritch, as he's new here, but I do find his post a little bizarre given that the very information/service he seeks is available from Dave. Furthermore, the rest of the membership, as always, will only be too willing to help, so there was no need whatsoever for his 'tantrum'.

Hopefully Ritch will be back to explain exactly what it is he wants... :confused:

Marco.

Gromit

10-02-2009, 18:44

Do you have the Pioneer service manual? I could re-work it in 3 hours?

Dave

Hi Dave - result!!! :)

I now have the PL71 service manual - found it on a website in the States (cost me 15 Bucks for the download though) so we could be good to go. I'm not sure if the 71 uses any obsolete sparky bits, but mechanically mine's pretty much spot-on (apart from a dicky bias adjust on the arm).

I would so love to have this beastie running as Mr Pioneer originally intended - if I did I think I'd keep it forever. :)

Er....sorry...back to the Time Step thread... :)

Marco

10-02-2009, 19:13

LOL - result, Richard! :)

Is there any limit to Dave's talents? :eyebrows:

Marco.

Dave Cawley

10-02-2009, 19:22

Clive

10-02-2009, 20:20

I'm sorry to see that history has been re-written and there is no trace of what happened. When a post is deleted there really should be a comment left behind explaining that a moderator removed that they believe to be an inappropriate post. Making it look like the post never existed is not ethical, it's not part of my ethics anyway.

Peter Stockwell

10-02-2009, 20:22

Wow, that is a pretty sweeping statement, can you qualify it? I'm looking to start off my vinyl journey with a good (if not new) example of the SL-1200 or 1210 and would also consider buying an SP-10 if the price was right. Now you have me worried if I should bother looking at all.

Hi Ritch,

If you are just starting with a vinyl rig, I believe you can't find a better starting point than a standard SL1200 or SL1210. I wish I'd discovered it's virtues whe I was starting out.

I can't help feeling that an SP10 needs more of an investment to get the best out of it.

You can also really make a big improvement to the presentation of music from an SL1200/SL1210 by the addition of either a Time Step or a KAB power supply.

Nothing is wrong with just listening to and enjoying the music. I've found that not all music is easy to get on first hearing, I've also found that some systems can completly destroy some styles of music, usually to my ears by destroying the timing cues, or the sense of musicians playing together if you prefer. For other people it's the timbral aspects that are more important. F'rinstance, I couldn't stand listening to Billy Holiday until I changed a certain set of speakers that I owned that were particularly peaky with her voice.

I often tell people who are not audiophools that most replay system get in the way of musical enjoyment, because many of them do destroy the music.

Lastly, you're most likely aware of this, how you read what someone has written on a forum depends entirely on how you choose to read, because aprt from the odd smiley, you cannot tell what tone someone is typing in.

So stick around a while

cheers

Marco

10-02-2009, 20:27

Clive,

If you're referring to Gerry's rude and uncalled for tantrum earlier it was deleted because it was completely inappropriate and totally out of order. I don't have to explain myself.

This thread is about the Time Step PSU and/or anything else relating to that - nothing else, so I would ask you to respect the thread topic. Any other comments of a different nature will be deleted accordingly.

Thank you :)

Marco.

Marco

10-02-2009, 20:50

If you are just starting with a vinyl rig, I believe you can't find a better starting point than a standard SL1200 or SL1210. I wish I'd discovered it's virtues whe I was starting out.

Same here, Peter - I would have saved a fortune!

But I guess that I'm not the only one...

Bloody Linn belt-drive Mafia of the 70s and 80s, eh?

Marco.

Peter Stockwell

10-02-2009, 21:14

Sheep, innit ? :mental:;)

Gromit

10-02-2009, 22:51

Hi Richard

OK, send the manual to dave@soundhifi.com for me to have a quick look please?

Where did you get it, I'm desperate for a Micro Seiki DQX-1000 service manual. Just bought it and having some arm mounts made up. More bling than an SP-10 but I suspect not as good, time will tell!

Regards

Dave

Hi Dave - manual should be with you now. :)

I got it from www.manualuniverse.com although I had a quick peep and couldn't find any Micro manuals, nor mention of the company. It seems that the website covers manuals outside hifi aswell....that's unless BMW are now making amplifiers or some such (they sure as hell can't make motorcycles!) :lol:

Marco

31-03-2009, 12:15

I've now been 'Time-Stepped' :)

More later!

Marco.

Tony G

31-03-2009, 17:08

Yeah right! :fishing:
We look forward to it :gig:

Sgt.Pepper

31-03-2009, 19:14

I've now been 'Time-Stepped' :)

More later!

Marco.

:popcorn:

TONEPUB

23-05-2009, 03:36

I have to say that I've been listening to Dave's upgrades for a little over a week and I'm still walking away very impressed with this setup! While Marco and I disagree somewhat about the ultimate potential of the SL-1200, I was someone who was always pretty down on the SL-1200 until I heard one at a good friends house that was very painstakingly set up.

I started down the path with a brand new stock, SL-1200 and still found the presentation a little bit closed in and dark overall, but another friend told me about Dave's mod and said it was fantastic. I struck up an email conversation with Dave, and when he got a break in his schedule, he sent me the Time-Step and an SME arm board.

I just happened to have a spare SME 309 lying around and once everything was put together, I am very excited about the combination. I just did the power supply mod first, did a little bit of listening and was very excited, then taking it to the next level and fitting the SME arm was another big jump. I still have to experiment with feet and the mat, but I have been extremely impressed.

And Dave is a fantastic guy to work with!

Whether you have a 1200 and want to upgrade or are considering a table in the range of a Rega P7, Scoutmaster, Pro-Ject RM10, etc etc, I wouldn't hand over the credit card till you hear one of these.

We will have a full review next issue, but again, this is an outstanding setup. And I started out as a guy who DIDN'T like the SL1200....