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Marco
13-02-2008, 19:24
It's very hard to get people interested in the proper engineering side of hi fi these days, instead too much energy is expended blathering on about ancillaries like mains cables that cannot possibly make a difference.


:bum:

Ash,

If you ever find yourself in the North Wales/Chester area let me know and I may be able to provide you with an experience that changes your mind on this somewhat thorny subject!

If not, we'll just forget all about it and go to the pub next door :cool:

Marco.

Ashley James
13-02-2008, 20:08
If you do I'll be contacting Exit!!!! EEEEERRRRGGGGGGHHHHHAAAAAA!!!!!!!!

Steve Toy
13-02-2008, 20:49
Ashley,

Please tell me your mind is open and you have no hidden agenda. Folks who swear blind that cables make no difference usually do have an agenda. You may of course be the exception.

Ashley James
13-02-2008, 21:13
I'd have thought the opposite!

I certainly don't, our policy is to refer our customers to our suppliers if they want any cables at nearer trade than retail to www.actionhardware.co.uk They are a major company and the quality is superb.

And if any of our customers wants a mains cable, we'll give it to him. therefore this advice is costing me money that I consider worth spending if it does anything to help rid hi fi of the endless bullshit that has been throttling it for over thirty years now.

AVI is a engineering company and we believe that if something cannot be proved in a properly conducted scientific test, it's bullshit.

Marco
13-02-2008, 21:13
Ash,

LOL.

I do agree that things like the effect of loudspeaker crossovers, and the room itself where the system is being used, have a much more significant impact on the performance of a hi-fi system than mains cables. 'Audiophiles' do tend to worry too much about them (and all cables) I feel - particularly on forums!

However, experience also tells me that the effect of using mains leads in a system which have been designed by someone with an understanding of how a hi-fi system works, outside of simply in an electrical sense, is significant in an altogether different way.

Apart from seeking to reduce the impedance on the mains supply, which will always improve sound quality, it's to do with interconnects or associated cables/wires maintaining the integrity of the 'delicate' music signal as it leaves the source and passes through the system to the speakers, and reducing various types of noise and interference along the way, all of which I'm sure are measurable.

The fact is, where a hi-fi system is concerned, and how it reproduces a given music signal, there are some mains leads, interconnects and speaker cable which through design do a better job of the above than others :)

Marco.

Ashley James
13-02-2008, 21:33
People differ in their skills, often academics can't even switch on the lights without electrocuting themselves where engineers may have trouble stringing words together.

It seems to me that people like to believe magical properties of things they don't understand and that this exasperates those that do. You're no Scientist so may like to believe some effect exists that they don't understand and obviously that's true but it's not of hi fi cables.

You may not be aware that Mart,the other half of AVI is a clever Scientist and engineer with a very successful career in Defence Avionics before he left to form Kelvin Labs and then AVI. One of the research projects he carried out was signal transmission of highly accurate signals in a very noisy electrical environment, namely a modern Jet fighter. He really is a cable expert and if he tells me cables don't make a difference unless something totally unsuitable is used when the effect will be negative, I believe him.

I'm sorry and if this starts a war I'm off!

sastusbulbas
13-02-2008, 21:46
I believe in cables, iv'e seen em, and you get different colours too, with shiny things on the end, they do exist....honest...

Filterlab
13-02-2008, 21:47
....if he tells me cables don't make a difference unless something totally unsuitable is used when the effect will be negative, I believe him.

Well, a cable can ONLY influence a system by detracting from the signal, it can never add anything, simply reveal more. A completely unsuitable cable will detract but a suitable one won't, it's as simple as that.

:)

Ashley James
13-02-2008, 21:53
I'd agree with that.

sastusbulbas
13-02-2008, 21:55
Cables eh.

I myself have buckets of them, (actualy its a bag and a big green skip).

Ashley,

Without wishing for any argument,
(I may use Chord cables, but do think there is some overpriced guff and plenty of internet hype on both sides of many a cable "debate")

What is your own opinion of interconnects and speaker cables? Do you have any sort of preferences?

Regards,
Steve

Marco
13-02-2008, 21:56
People differ in their skills, often academics can't even switch on the lights without electrocuting themselves where engineers may have trouble stringing words together.

It seems to me that people like to believe magical properties of things they don't understand and that this exasperates those that do. You're no Scientist so may like to believe some effect exists that they don't understand and obviously that's true but it's not of hi fi cables.

You may not be aware that Mart,the other half of AVI is a clever Scientist and engineer with a very successful career in Defence Avionics before he left to form Kelvin Labs and then AVI. One of the research projects he carried out was signal transmission of highly accurate signals in a very noisy electrical environment, namely a modern Jet fighter. He really is a cable expert and if he tells me cables don't make a difference unless something totally unsuitable is used when the effect will be negative, I believe him.

I'm sorry and if this starts a war I'm off!


Rest assured there won't be any "war" here!

You make some good and valid points. Perhaps we should move the last few posts here on cables to another thread where a fresh discussion can be started? I think that would be useful to keep the OP's thread on-topic and to facilitate relevant discussion :)

Marco.

Marco
13-02-2008, 22:02
Well, a cable can ONLY influence a system by detracting from the signal, it can never add anything, simply reveal more. A completely unsuitable cable will detract but a suitable one won't, it's as simple as that.


Absolutely, Rob - I totally agree.

A 'completely unsuitable' cable will sound worse than one which is 'more suitable' simply because of the signal degradation you mention, therefore there are differences... ;)

Another thread looms, me thinks!

Marco.

Filterlab
13-02-2008, 22:05
Absolutely, Rob - I totally agree.

A 'completely unsuitable' cable will sound worse than one which is 'more suitable' simply because of the signal degradation you mention, therefore there are differences... ;)

Another thread looms, me thinks!

Marco.

Indeed, and the 'more' suitable a cable is, the more musical information will be recovered.

Are you going to start it? :lol:

Marco
13-02-2008, 22:10
LOL. Anyone for another "Do cables make a difference?" thread? :rolleyes:

Marco.

sastusbulbas
13-02-2008, 22:26
Yes, if anyone is open for this discussion it would be polite to relocate the relevant posts elsewhere and keep Ashleys thread clean and relevant to the subject.

Steve Toy
13-02-2008, 22:40
No.

Marco
13-02-2008, 23:09
No you're not open to the discussion of cables or no you don't want to keep the OP's thread clean and relevant?

I guess, with regard to cable debates, it's all been done to death before. I still have high hopes of converting Ashley to the 'dark side', though... ;)

Marco.

Steve Toy
13-02-2008, 23:13
I do want this thread to remain on topic.

Steve Toy
14-02-2008, 01:33
I guess, with regard to cable debates, it's all been done to death before. I still have high hopes of converting Ashley to the 'dark side', though...


I don't fancy your chances. I think Ashley's notions of accuracy are fanciful and absolutist. They are also completely at odds with the essence of The Art of Sound.

He's entitled to his opinion and I've no problem with it being expressed here. I may look at splitting this thread though.

I agree with the sentiment " no hear no buy." Anyone who buys any hi-fi without listening to it first is a fool.

Ashley, you would do well to get your ADM9s out to (more) dealers so they can be heard. The ears really are the final arbiter. No matter how perfect the measurements may be, if any piece of hi-fi fails to connect the listener with the music on an emotional as well as cerebral level it fails full stop.

Marco
14-02-2008, 08:27
Steve,

At the end of the day, Ashley will do his 'thang' the same as we'll do ours... :smoking:

I'm trying to keep the cable side of the discussion light-hearted and don't want it to get too 'heavy' :)

I think I'll move the off-topic posts here to a new thread, and see how it develops ;)

Marco.

Marco
14-02-2008, 08:41
Ok, who's got something novel and interesting to say on this subject? :)

Let's hear it!

Marco.

Lowrider
14-02-2008, 08:57
Interesting post on AA:


Quite the opposite. It has nothing to do with safety grounds. By 'ground loop' I mean 'loops of ground paths'. That includes PS transformer primary winding parasitics through the power return for example. Different AC cords have different frequency dependent impedances, especially above the audio band. Interconnects have differing ground path impedances. When a system has multiple sources the interconnects and power cords for all of them form loops between the central device, normally a pre-amp, and the wall outlet. Unless the source switching device is designed to lift unused sources and their associated grounds (as does mine) the result is complex and numerous path loops of varying frequency dependent impedances randomly oriented in space. Changing a power cord alters these relationships.

THIS is where any examination concerning the claim of audible differences between power cords should start. Starting at Niagara Falls is little better than a smug unconsidered dismissal unworthy of any claim to the scientific high ground. It's also tacitly based on presumptions valid in a world which no longer exists, before power grids and air were saturated with man-made HF energy. It's a dim platitude.

Note, none of the above says anything about the audibility of AC cords (or use with scopes, a letter BTW which passes every imaginable sniff test for a phoney setup), only about the proper way to examine claims and ever-depressing 'less filling/tastes great' form of analysis we usually get.

WikiBoy
14-02-2008, 09:22
Ok, who's got something novel and interesting to say on this subject? :)

Let's hear it!

Marco.

It is all about interface and is largely simple LCR reaction within the context of useage. After interface there is influence. Sorry to go all metaphysical but this is the Yin and Yang of audio design. You take account of how something *fits* into its electronic environment and how something directly *influences* its electronic environment. Having created that *system* topology then how does it fit into / influence the listeners energetic environment and how those interface. That is what we want and need music for. Very little study and understanding of this and it is fundemental. So cables are just one thing, when you design you have case, pcb, layout connundrums of at least the same intensity. And how do you solve it, well by listening with your heart your brain and your body, the ears are just an addenda. Three basic elements in music 1. does it move your body / dance / airguitar 2. does it move your mind / intellect / score reading etc 3. does it move your soul / emotions / the little hairs on the back of your neck. It should do all three but humans are usually out of balance and focus on seperate aspects and not the holistic experience. We tend to be more out of balance listening to hi-fi as we take intellectual stances but music lovers and musicologists do the same thing worse than we do. And so the wars begin be it Bruckner v Mozart or cable believers v non believers or foot tappers v etherial dreamers. Take a stance and have a fight, all largely irrelevent.

Go to www.nene-valley-audio.com and link to interview it will show this different view point.

Also there is this specifically about cable, both were written in the eary 90's and are valid now

THE GENESIS REPORT: INDUSTRY AND EXPERT FEEDBACK

By publishing The Genesis Report, QED has returned the Great Cable Debate to its scientific roots. CYBERFi asked a number of leading amplifier manufacturers for their response to the conclusions of QED's investigation. Representatives from Naim, NVA and LFD join cables expert Malcolm Hawksford of Essex University to case a critical eye over the new white paper, assessing its findings in the light of their own research

RICHARD DUNN of NVA says:

The report is both right and wrong. In my view high resistance is not the issue. What determines the way that cables affect system performance to a far greater degree is the output impedance of an amplifier. The question of cable inductance, capacitance and resistance has to be considered as an integral part of the amplifier/cable/loudspeaker interfacing equation. Amplifiers such as NVA's, Naim's and Exposure's which do no have a Zobell network on the output, are sensitive to the effects of capacitance and inductance. Transistor amplifiers with Zobell networks or output filtering and valve amplifiers with transformer coupling on their outputs are not so sensitive. If an amplifier has negligible output impedance (ie the damping factor is high), the effect of relatively high cable resistance is minimal. Our LS1 cable is a fairly high resistance cable, but our amplifiers have a 0.0065 ohm output impedance, so there are no ill effects.

Cable directionality is a audible phenomenon. Indeed cable performance can vary with even more obscure factors than this. I have found with solid core cable it is possible to create directionality over a period of time. It's as if the cable beds-in when used aligned one way. If you then reverse one of the cables it can sound worse. But if left, it will bed-in once more over a period of time.

I agree that the cable dielectric is more important than the conductor purity. However if you coat a copper cable in silver, the change will affect performance as much as any change in dielectric material. The dielectric is know to affect cable capacitance more than any other factor with the exception of using Litz construction. Output transformers and Zobell networks hide the deficiencies of cables. So the danger is the wrong cable solution can be prescribed. high capacitance cables apply a cure to the bad audible effects of Zobell networks and output transformers, but as in medicine, it would be much preferable to not have the condition in the first place!

I welcome QED's report. The use of scientific techniques to help evaluate cable is to be applauded. My concern is whether the tests have been carried out in sufficient depth. Individual manufacturers are usually the best source of recommendation for suitable cable to partner their products. Ultimately the big issues concerning cable are the same as those affecting systems. It's all about interfaces from the start of the recording chain to the final link when playing back through a hi-fi system.

Marco
14-02-2008, 22:00
Antonio and Richard,

Two excellent posts. I'll get to those tomorrow! :)

However, I really like and totally agree with this statement in particular:


It's all about interfaces from the start of the recording chain to the final link when playing back through a hi-fi system.


Oh yes indeedy :clap:

Unfortunately with one thing and another the day has just flown by...

Until later.

Marco.

Mike
14-02-2008, 22:20
I have only one thing to say on this subject:

Cables of all kinds make a difference.

!

Steve Toy
15-02-2008, 03:38
Indeed they do.

Marco
15-02-2008, 07:20
LOL. I of course agree, chaps, but this is hardly the in-depth emotive discussion I was hoping for ;)

I'll get my teeth into it when I've woken up properly!

Marco.

Steve Toy
15-02-2008, 11:10
Now, lets see how this one is going to pan out:

The subjectivist camp will say mains leads and interconnects definitely make a difference because the results obtained from trying different types are quite unpredictable and yet repeatable in any given system. I'll add that when a number of discerning people are in the room hearing a given demonstration they may all hear the same changes taking place but disagree as to which they prefer, just as they may if a box change was being effected. Others here will come along to agree with me, especially on a forum like this that is rather aptly called (even if I say so myself) The Art of Sound. The issue here is that differences heard as opposed to differences seen require the use of memory and here lies the rub...

The so-called objectivists will come along and say, in rather condescending and sneering tones, that we are all a bit loopy and imagining things and that our memory may be playing tricks on us, even if the time elapsed between A and B is only a minute or so. They would add that we'd hear precisely bugger-all under certain laboratory conditions which would probably resemble the Ingram electric shocks experiment and involve the use of blindfolds. In their argument they'd conveniently ignore my use of unpredictable and repeatable above so I'd have to remind them.

They would then demand proof in the form of some kind of trial by ordeal (electric shocks and blindfolds) and not to be all-stick-and-no-carrot they'd offer a million dollars to anyone who could notice any differences while being tortured. Someone else would come along with something anecdotal and empirical to support the subjectivist argument, the objectivists would become more cynical, condescending and sneering, point out that their experiences don't count as they haven't been made to suffer in the process of making their discovery and a circular argument would then descend into a bit of a bunfight.

And our forum will resemble all the others.

Filterlab
15-02-2008, 11:17
At the end of the day, Ashley will do his 'thang' the same as we'll do ours... :smoking:

Yes, and this is all the 'art' of sound. Whether one is a measurements type person or a play about and see what happens type person, it's still all about achieving a final goal - high quality sound.

Regardless of how it's arrived at (and everyone has differences in paths taken) it's what all hi-fi lovers want. :)

Steve Toy
15-02-2008, 13:55
Whether one is a measurements type person or a play about and see what happens type person, it's still all about achieving a final goal - high quality sound.

I would say that anyone relying on perfect measurements alone is not going to get a particularly involving and musically insightful sound. I've heard a few systems that have impressive measurements, tick all the right sonic boxes yet manage to sound rather sterile and matter-of-fact.

Good kit does measure well but that which gives insight into a gifted musician, say an acoustic guitarist or cellist and his/her ability to create a sense of rhythmic patterns, does so by revealing not just exactly when to hit a particular note but also to reveal variations in how hard or soft notes are struck in relation to each other. It's mostly about timing and addressing issues of energy transfer (basic laws of physics.)

Playing musical instruments is an art and capturing their expression through recorded electro-mechanical means is also an art.

Marco
15-02-2008, 15:16
Good post, Steve.


The so-called objectivists will come along and say, in rather condescending and sneering tones, that we are all a bit loopy and imagining things and that our memory may be playing tricks on us, even if the time elapsed between A and B is only a minute or so.


Indeed. And on a slightly different but related matter, what the so-called objectivists should also accept is that the oft quoted 'expectation bias', used frequently by them to demean or devalue the observations of subjectivists, cuts both ways: it's just as easy not to want to hear something as it is the opposite simply because you've 'convinced' yourself it can't work. Or does such bias miraculously only apply one way? If only the human mind was that simple! I would contend that the objectivist measurement-types are potentially just as able to be blinded by their preconceptions as are the subjectivists by theirs. It often appears that the objectivists, rather conveniently, consider themselves immune to such expectation bias. The fact is everyone is potentially suggestible in these types of tests, for a variety of reasons, not just the subjectivists or 'cable believers'!!


They would then demand proof in the form of some kind of trial by ordeal (electric shocks and blindfolds) and not to be all-stick-and-no-carrot they'd offer a million dollars to anyone who could notice any differences while being tortured. Someone else would come along with something anecdotal and empirical to support the subjectivist argument, the objectivists would become more cynical, condescending and sneering, point out that their experiences don't count as they haven't been made to suffer in the process of making their discovery and a circular argument would then descend into a bit of a bunfight.

And our forum will resemble all the others.

Point taken, but we simply wouldn't allow that to happen. What I don't get is why the vast majority of objectivists and those with a reductionist mentality always are so rude and condescending?

I'm not saying they're all like that, but most of the ones I've met are!

At the end of the day, everyone is entitled to an opinion on the effect of cables, or otherwise, whether that opinion is based on scientific facts or an experienced pair of ears. And whether you agree with them or not, affording your counterpart due civility and common courtesy when discussing the subject costs nothing. If everyone observed this simple rule there would be no 'bun fights'.

Marco.

Filterlab
15-02-2008, 15:22
I would say that anyone relying on perfect measurements alone is not going to get a particularly involving and musically insightful sound. I've heard a few systems that have impressive measurements, tick all the right sonic boxes yet manage to sound rather sterile and matter-of-fact....

But remember Steve, some of us actively seek that type of sound. ;)

Marco
15-02-2008, 15:28
LOL. Well I don't think you necessarily do, mate, judging by your reaction to the Robson Acoustics demo at the Manchester show, which sounded anything but 'sterile' ;)

Marco.

Colinx
15-02-2008, 15:29
I will start by saying that I neither believe, or dis believe, but have never tried boutique cables. I have tried a few very budget offerings, from simple studio stuff using Van damme cable, through the odd e-bay special, and settled on simple Chord Cobra's. Have I heard differences, or at least repeatable ones, not on interconnects, or at least not on well made one's the only one that did give audible differences sounded that bad I took it apart to find a stuck rather than soldered joint. On speaker cable yes I heard changes, simply by moving from some Chord stuff at around 2-2.5mm sq section to 4mm sq section the sound balanced out across the range. I assume that the usual your gear and or ears are not up to it could apply, as could you have not paid enough etc etc. I would rather stick with the much easier to accept theory that copper is copper is copper applies, and will quite happily stay with what I have. I can certainly tell the differences on how a brass instrument player is tonguing, how much pressure is being used on a bow, or strings without spending stupid amounts of money on cable. It may be that I dropped lucky and Chord cables balance well with Rega boxes, and Van Damme make good cheap cable, but faced with a choice of a £300+ IC or a pile of Vinyl or CD's. I'll go with the music first every time.

Steve Toy
15-02-2008, 15:46
Colin,

I don't think anyone could really contest anything you've said above because it is all based on your own personal experience. You've also used a subjectivist method to reach your conclusions.

WikiBoy
15-02-2008, 15:56
I will start by saying that I neither believe, or dis believe, but have never tried boutique cables. I have tried a few very budget offerings, from simple studio stuff using Van damme cable, through the odd e-bay special, and settled on simple Chord Cobra's. Have I heard differences, or at least repeatable ones, not on interconnects, or at least not on well made one's the only one that did give audible differences sounded that bad I took it apart to find a stuck rather than soldered joint. On speaker cable yes I heard changes, simply by moving from some Chord stuff at around 2-2.5mm sq section to 4mm sq section the sound balanced out across the range. I assume that the usual your gear and or ears are not up to it could apply, as could you have not paid enough etc etc. I would rather stick with the much easier to accept theory that copper is copper is copper applies, and will quite happily stay with what I have. I can certainly tell the differences on how a brass instrument player is tonguing, how much pressure is being used on a bow, or strings without spending stupid amounts of money on cable. It may be that I dropped lucky and Chord cables balance well with Rega boxes, and Van Damme make good cheap cable, but faced with a choice of a £300+ IC or a pile of Vinyl or CD's. I'll go with the music first every time.

Until you try something good you don't know what good is.

Filterlab
15-02-2008, 16:11
LOL. Well I don't think you necessarily do, mate, judging by your reaction to the Robson Acoustics demo at the Manchester show, which sounded anything but 'sterile' ;)

Marco.

You see to my ears that sound was sterile - but not in a negative way, it was matter of fact - exactly what was on the recording with nothing added or taken away.

I guess superlatives are subjective too. :)

Marco
15-02-2008, 16:39
Indeed, Rob, but in this case I think it's just a matter of semantics.

Richard,


Until you try something good you don't know what good is.


"Good" is one of the most subjective terms in hi-fi. Who's to say the cables Colin has used up until now aren't 'good'? What exactly is 'good'? Therefore his experiences are as valid as yours or mine.

Marco.

Steve Toy
15-02-2008, 16:45
I think I know what Richard means. By "good" he probably means something a little more exotic/will likely make a bigger improvement (perhaps expensive but not necessarily so) than what Colin has yet experienced.

Filterlab
15-02-2008, 16:53
Indeed, Rob, but in this case I think it's just a matter of semantics.

Indeed, the dictionary doesn't have a meaning for sterile that could be a definition in terms of sound reproduction equipment, but one could say that a lack of any source of detraction from the original article = 'sterile'.

As you say, I suppose it's how one views superlatives. :)

Marco
15-02-2008, 16:57
Yes, Steve - I know exactly what Richard means, but it's not always the most 'exotic' cables that provide the best performance. It depends on the system or particular application involved.

In my experience, where cables are concerned, synergy (how well the cable interfaces with the components used and the system as a whole), and maintaining the same cable loom throughout, is more important than outright cost or the use of so-called 'exotic' materials.

Marco.

Marco
15-02-2008, 17:01
Indeed, the dictionary doesn't have a meaning for sterile that could be a definition in terms of sound reproduction equipment, but one could say that a lack of any source of detraction from the original article = 'sterile'.

As you say, I suppose it's how one views superlatives.


I'll go with that :)

Right, girls, I'm off out to a mate's house to play with some valve amps and drink a ridiculous amount of beer :cool:

Have fun and play nice!

Much later,

Marco.

Vinyl Grinder
15-02-2008, 17:15
In my experience, where cables are concerned, synergy (how well the cable interfaces with the components used and the system as a whole), and maintaining the same cable loom throughout, is more important than outright cost or the use of so-called 'exotic' materials.

Marco.

One of the reasons i love Kimber you can wire the damned lot with exactly the same wire inside your amps & powers suplies, speakers also, nothing can't be wired with Kimber except internal tonearm wire so i choose Cardas for that.

Steve Toy
15-02-2008, 17:17
and drink a ridiculous amount of beer :cool:



Does this mean you'll actually finish two whole pints? :ner:

Vinyl Grinder
15-02-2008, 17:26
valve amps



When you get back you might be loose enough to let us know what your new toy is!!! If it's chinese i won't laugh honest

:lolsign:

Lowrider
16-02-2008, 09:14
Nothing wrong with Chinese... :ner:

Marco
16-02-2008, 10:20
Mmmm... I is sayin' nuffin yet ;)

But it is fecking AWESOME!


:trust:

Marco.

Vinyl Grinder
16-02-2008, 13:23
Sed that for that last week.Cum on ffk sake.

I can see all this pent up excitements gonna come to noffink...

:unfair:

Marco
16-02-2008, 14:51
LOL. I'll PM you later ;)

Marco.

Steve Toy
19-02-2008, 14:31
11.Do power cables make a difference for sound quality?

Yes they do. Power cables radiate pulses* that influence your interconnects up to distances of a meter. These pulses are caused by the rectifier which is standard for almost every piece of Hi-Fi, and is being picked up by nearby interconnects and enter your system where they interfere with your music signal. Siltech power cords do not radiate these pulses because of their X-Balanced and latest Dual-Balanced construction. *These pulses are double the main frequency; i.e. 100Hz or 120c/s. Cause is the rectifier together with the always charged electrolytic capacitors; the current needed to fill up those capacitors only flows in the top of the sine wave during a very short period. So instead of an average current consumption from the mains, the current peaks at twice the cycle sending out magnetic fields ranging from 100c/s to about 5000c/s.



This is what Siltech have to say on the matter.

I'm sorry for bringing this back on topic.

WikiBoy
19-02-2008, 23:19
This is what Siltech have to say on the matter.

I'm sorry for bringing this back on topic.

Marketing speak. This is the latest craze amoungst cable marketing, focusing on field theory. One company starts it and a magazine talks about it so they all have to respond :steam: I think the marketing men hang around the benches of the techies and when they hear a new phrase that could have some mileage off they go. Little different to what goes on with toothpaste and body cream.

Cable differences are due to cable impedance and interface. Mostly so with interconnects lesser with speaker cable and less again with mains cable. This is due to the sensitivity with what they connect to and the level of voltage involved. Impedance is dictated by LCR nothing more. Other much smaller side effects are caused by what is known as skin effect and how the cable is drawn, and less again by the core material used. LCR variation is caused more by dielectric and construction than core material.

Cable differences and improvement exist, that is fact, BUT that fact is hidden often by interface. For example, a large percentage of cable unbelievers are valve amp users - reason the input coupling and output transformers mask those subleties. Some also use old fashioned style highly compensated SS amps where once again like the output transformers the LCR of the interface swamps the LCR of the cable. So once again bad design masks potential.

Good amps with matched interfaces show up cable differences, bad amps don't.

Steve Toy
19-02-2008, 23:39
A fantastic post Richard. I always did wonder if there was a correlation between valve and Naim amp users and cable non-believers. I once tried DIN/DIN Chord Anthem versus standard Naim interconnects with a Naim CDX/82/Hicap/250. In the context of this system the Anthem made no difference whatsoever over the standard patch to my ears.

The same interconnect in RCA form compared to a Chord Chrysalis (a clone of the Naim i/c) into a non-Naim system made a huge difference; the Chrysalis was unlistenable through wide bandwidth amplification (Densen B200/B300). Densen amps are particularly revealing of interconnect differences which explains why Nordost sales guys undertaking demonstrations of their wares were more than happy to use a humble Densen B100 integrated costing a mere £700 at the time to show the merits of i/cs costing considerably more.

I agree Richard that interconnects seem to make the biggest difference - they are closest to the point in the chain where the greatest signal losses take place, which is probably shared in most cases between source and preamp. Speaker cables make more subtle differences but ones that can nevertheless make or break a person's enjoyment of music. You know the sort - listening to the system for several hours per day is mysteriously cut to only very occasional use.

I know of a couple of guys on pfm who are cable sceptics based on their own experiences of using either valve, Naim amps or both. One is Gary Irwin (Naim user), the other is Robert Holt (Naim and then valve user). Both are welcome to contribute to this discussion.

Steve Toy
20-02-2008, 01:35
PS: What's LCR?

Lowrider
20-02-2008, 06:21
My tube amplifier clearly shows IC cables differences, I started with Schallwand copper single wire, very nice sound other than apparent lack of treble, when I bought the Linn Unidisk SC they offered Linn Black, no bass, harsh highs, unlistenable, then they offered me Linn Silver, more detail than the Schallwand, but still harsh with some records... :scratch:

Then Zanash sent me a set of his ICs, silver with something mixed, and Eichman bullet silver plugs, best of both worlds, nice sound, good bass, good detail, no harshness...

I didnt try different speaker cables, use after market power cable, but didnt bother comparing...

sastusbulbas
20-02-2008, 08:17
Cable differences are due to cable impedance and interface. Mostly so with interconnects lesser with speaker cable and less again with mains cable. This is due to the sensitivity with what they connect to and the level of voltage involved. Impedance is dictated by LCR nothing more. Other much smaller side effects are caused by what is known as skin effect and how the cable is drawn, and less again by the core material used. LCR variation is caused more by dielectric and construction than core material.

Cable differences and improvement exist, that is fact, BUT that fact is hidden often by interface. For example, a large percentage of cable unbelievers are valve amp users - reason the input coupling and output transformers mask those subtleties. Some also use old fashioned style highly compensated SS amps where once again like the output transformers the LCR of the interface swamps the LCR of the cable. So once again bad design masks potential.

Good amps with matched interfaces show up cable differences, bad amps don't.

Good to read something that takes away some of the rot that starts after some of the previous posts read in other forums.
I myself did get a little fed up with all the cable debunking, not helped by the fact my main system is boxed away due to re-decorating which never seems to happen due to health etc..

I myself think cables are not all equal, though there are a lot of overpriced hyped up pieces of poo out there.

I myself use mainly Chord, it seemed to just happen so to speak, I find it cohesive and to be consistent in my few systems.
Chord Anthem XLR
Chord Chorus RCA
Chord Chameleon Silver + XLR and RCA
I also have Chord Signature speaker cable, and Odyssey and Rumour somewhere.
I have loads of other cables too, from various brands, as many of us do, plus many for AV use (most extravagant being a Transparent Audio 6m? S- Vide lead for my LD player).
Some RA mains products also reside, and Tacima which I have found to be detrimental in a few situations.

When reading a lot of the stuff people say against cable users it gets quite tempting to get rid of it all and just start again with Van Damme stuff.
You question your own opinion on V-Damme sounding inferior to some of your other cables, and even find yourself thinking about the rumours that Chord Signature speaker cable is from the RA catalogue and that it should be sold on quickly, regardless of its improvement over Nac 5, VDH D-352, Atlas and such.

Alas, my own investigation into the Chord Signature "Rumour" came up with the conclusion the claimed equivalent was only a slightly more flexible and thinner RA catalogue equivalent which looked and was constructed similar, and a reply from Nigel at Chord explaining a bit about the cable source.

There is so much product, product change, expense and hype surrounding cable now it is still difficult to take anything as it is said, I still doubt my hearing after 20 years or whatever of listening to music from bellwire to what I use now.

No doubt many of the cables we buy are overpriced, I have not used my Chord Signature for some time, which makes it more tempting to sell, but I have memories of my Theta/Krell/Kef set up sounding good with Signature.

Still end up asking myself though, Is Signature Speaker cable actually cheap and poor RA catalogue cable which I should just sell, is Anthem poor, is it all a con... Damn Forums...

Steve

WikiBoy
20-02-2008, 09:38
PS: What's LCR?

Inductance - Capacitance - Resistance

WikiBoy
20-02-2008, 09:46
My tube amplifier clearly shows IC cables differences, I started with Schallwand copper single wire, very nice sound other than apparent lack of treble, when I bought the Linn Unidisk SC they offered Linn Black, no bass, harsh highs, unlistenable, then they offered me Linn Silver, more detail than the Schallwand, but still harsh with some records... :scratch:

Then Zanash sent me a set of his ICs, silver with something mixed, and Eichman bullet silver plugs, best of both worlds, nice sound, good bass, good detail, no harshness...

I didnt try different speaker cables, use after market power cable, but didnt bother comparing...

Then your input LCR on the amp is not swamping the cable effects, so a well designed input. You may find problems with hearing speaker cable difference due to the output transformers swamping the LCR of the cable (go to www.nene-valley-audio.com link to interview and read first couple of pages). LCR creates differences within product not just the connections that you see. There are interfaces between gain stages in amps and gain and processing stages within sources, ALL are subject to these differences, it is not the transistors or valve it is what you have to put around them and with them that largely dictates the quality of the product, and follow my maxim "there is only one thing better than the best component money can buy and that is no component".

Lowrider
20-02-2008, 09:50
Then your input LCR on the amp is not swamping the cable effects, so a well designed input.

Good... :)

WikiBoy
20-02-2008, 09:53
Good to read something that takes away some of the rot that starts after some of the previous posts read in other forums.
I myself did get a little fed up with all the cable debunking, not helped by the fact my main system is boxed away due to re-decorating which never seems to happen due to health etc..

I myself think cables are not all equal, though there are a lot of overpriced hyped up pieces of poo out there.

I myself use mainly Chord, it seemed to just happen so to speak, I find it cohesive and to be consistent in my few systems.
Chord Anthem XLR
Chord Chorus RCA
Chord Chameleon Silver + XLR and RCA
I also have Chord Signature speaker cable, and Odyssey and Rumour somewhere.
I have loads of other cables too, from various brands, as many of us do, plus many for AV use (most extravagant being a Transparent Audio 6m? S- Vide lead for my LD player).
Some RA mains products also reside, and Tacima which I have found to be detrimental in a few situations.

When reading a lot of the stuff people say against cable users it gets quite tempting to get rid of it all and just start again with Van Damme stuff.
You question your own opinion on V-Damme sounding inferior to some of your other cables, and even find yourself thinking about the rumours that Chord Signature speaker cable is from the RA catalogue and that it should be sold on quickly, regardless of its improvement over Nac 5, VDH D-352, Atlas and such.

Alas, my own investigation into the Chord Signature "Rumour" came up with the conclusion the claimed equivalent was only a slightly more flexible and thinner RA catalogue equivalent which looked and was constructed similar, and a reply from Nigel at Chord explaining a bit about the cable source.

There is so much product, product change, expense and hype surrounding cable now it is still difficult to take anything as it is said, I still doubt my hearing after 20 years or whatever of listening to music from bellwire to what I use now.

No doubt many of the cables we buy are overpriced, I have not used my Chord Signature for some time, which makes it more tempting to sell, but I have memories of my Theta/Krell/Kef set up sounding good with Signature.

Still end up asking myself though, Is Signature Speaker cable actually cheap and poor RA catalogue cable which I should just sell, is Anthem poor, is it all a con... Damn Forums...

Steve

Forums are full of self appointed marketing men who want you to be like them for ego reasons. There are also real marketing men some open but mostly plants. It just shows the growing power of forums and the fear the marketing men and marketing based companies have of them. Emperors new cloths and all that. Keep listening - just because you like those ones does not make it that others are not better. Also do not presume just because your prefered cable works in your system it will be best in all, it may be but it may not. Remember interface, it is not just the cable it is what it is connected to.

Marco
20-02-2008, 11:49
Inductance - Capacitance - Resistance


Isn't that ICR? ;)

What's the 'L' for then?

Marco.

Filterlab
20-02-2008, 12:01
L is the mathmatical symbol used for Inductance due to Heinrich Lenz whom studied electromagnetism and discovered Joule's Law.

WikiBoy
20-02-2008, 12:31
Isn't that ICR? ;)

What's the 'L' for then?

Marco.

I is for ignorance - L is for lesson.

Filterlab
20-02-2008, 12:37
I is for ignorance - L is for lesson.

LOL! :lol: :lolsign:

Very good.

WikiBoy
20-02-2008, 12:48
A fantastic post Richard. I always did wonder if there was a correlation between valve and Naim amp users and cable non-believers. I once tried DIN/DIN Chord Anthem versus standard Naim interconnects with a Naim CDX/82/Hicap/250. In the context of this system the Anthem made no difference whatsoever over the standard patch to my ears.

The same interconnect in RCA form compared to a Chord Chrysalis (a clone of the Naim i/c) into a non-Naim system made a huge difference; the Chrysalis was unlistenable through wide bandwidth amplification (Densen B200/B300). Densen amps are particularly revealing of interconnect differences which explains why Nordost sales guys undertaking demonstrations of their wares were more than happy to use a humble Densen B100 integrated costing a mere £700 at the time to show the merits of i/cs costing considerably more.

I agree Richard that interconnects seem to make the biggest difference - they are closest to the point in the chain where the greatest signal losses take place, which is probably shared in most cases between source and preamp. Speaker cables make more subtle differences but ones that can nevertheless make or break a person's enjoyment of music. You know the sort - listening to the system for several hours per day is mysteriously cut to only very occasional use.

I know of a couple of guys on pfm who are cable sceptics based on their own experiences of using either valve, Naim amps or both. One is Gary Irwin (Naim user), the other is Robert Holt (Naim and then valve user). Both are welcome to contribute to this discussion.

You are picking the wrong SS amp, cable differences are clearly heard in a Naim system as one of its good points is low or balanced LCR especially with the early zobel network free output stage. Hence the speaker cable sensitivity of the early amps, which IMO are still the best ones if you get a good one as they were a bit variable. Newer amps are consistent but have lost some of the Naim character or if you are a naim-ie then the Naim magic. JV was a PA man at heart, he wanted a good PA in the home, he designed the circuit (or more correctly adapted an application note) purely for PA originally, it was IT who convinced him to sell it domestically.

I did some listening with JonR in his Naim system as I built some cables with din plugs for him. This is the limiting factor using those bloody silly din plugs. In Jons system both interconnect and speaker cable differences were clearly audible.

Steve Toy
20-02-2008, 12:52
They weren't in that particular Olive Naim system on that day back in 2001. I suspect that JonR's system is a considerably more revealing, 'Classic' Naim system.

I could be wrong of course.

Marco
20-02-2008, 15:13
L is the mathmatical symbol used for Inductance due to Heinrich Lenz whom studied electromagnetism and discovered Joule's Law.


Thanks for that, Rob. Physics is far from my strongest subject! :)

In fact, I have pretty much no interest in it.

Richard,

Very droll :ner:

I wouldn't assume that everyone knows these things. Art and languages is more my bag. I was generally asleep in the Physics class - and yes it shows!

Marco.

Filterlab
20-02-2008, 15:18
I'm no brainiac but I do read sometimes. :)

Marco
20-02-2008, 15:24
Indeed, and so do I, but I usually give the subject of physics a miss unless I'm looking for a cure for insomnia ;)

Marco.

WikiBoy
21-02-2008, 10:22
Indeed, and so do I, but I usually give the subject of physics a miss unless I'm looking for a cure for insomnia ;)

Marco.

Systems that don't show cable differences normally have this effect on me.

Marco
21-02-2008, 11:14
Indeed!

And such systems are usually 'broken' in quite a fundamental way...

Marco.

Steve Toy
21-02-2008, 16:17
You can actually fall asleep to a good system if you are really tired. A bad system is too grating for that.

Ashley James
17-03-2008, 17:47
There's nothing more tedious and protracted than cable discussions, you the consume Forums for weeks on end. There are loads of well documented experiments that show people are unable to hear any difference between them in properly conducted tests and that's what science and our knowledge of them predicts should be the case.

As a manufacturer I've developed a pathological hatred of cables and the damage that "tweakers" do by constantly changing them. They snap off terminals, the drive one channel into the other and blow amps, they short Amps out, we've had fuse holders set alight by people not able to insert a "better sounding fuse" and we've had numerous damaged phono sockets - and then we've had loads of amplifiers returned with no fault found (takes longer to fix than one with a fault) because the cables were faulty.

If cables could make a difference (they can't) it would still be nothing like as big as buying a decent, bigger amp to avoid clipping for instance. The simple fact is that there is so much wrong with most people's systems, cables are the last place they should be looking, especially as so many aren't safe changing them!!

StanleyB
17-03-2008, 19:19
If cables could make a difference (they can't)
Why can a USB2 cable pass data at a higher rate than a USB1 cable?
Why does a CAT5 cable pass data of a higher bandwidth than a CAT4 cable?
Why can a foam filled 75 ohms coax cable pass a higher bandwidth signal than an aircore 75 ohms coax cable?

Why has a 64 strands centre conductor coax got a lower dB loss than a 32 strands?

So you see my dear friend, you are peddling lies that are easily disproved with real life situations out there in the field.

Out of interest: I have developed several cables over the last decades, and currently sell two with two more on the way. I also found out from someone who worked for Monster Cable that some of my cables were taken apart by their technical guys so that they could learn from my technique.

Ashley James
17-03-2008, 19:23
I've no idea! What relevance have any of these cables to the comments I made?
It should have been obvious I was talking about hi fi cables, because this is the area where all the nonsense is spouted. Are you suggesting that the disease has spread to USB and CAT cables now?

Mike
17-03-2008, 19:26
There's nothing more tedious and protracted than cable discussions, you the consume Forums for weeks on end. There are loads of well documented experiments that show people are unable to hear any difference between them in properly conducted tests and that's what science and our knowledge of them predicts should be the case.

As a manufacturer I've developed a pathological hatred of cables and the damage that "tweakers" do by constantly changing them. They snap off terminals, the drive one channel into the other and blow amps, they short Amps out, we've had fuse holders set alight by people not able to insert a "better sounding fuse" and we've had numerous damaged phono sockets - and then we've had loads of amplifiers returned with no fault found (takes longer to fix than one with a fault) because the cables were faulty.

If cables could make a difference (they can't) it would still be nothing like as big as buying a decent, bigger amp to avoid clipping for instance. The simple fact is that there is so much wrong with most people's systems, cables are the last place they should be looking, especially as so many aren't safe changing them!!

I think that is about 'the winner' as talking bollocks goes so far! :mental:

StanleyB
17-03-2008, 19:32
I've no idea! What relevance have any of these cables to the comments I made?
It should have been obvious I was talking about hi fi cables, because this is the area where all the nonsense is spouted. Are you suggesting that the disease has spread to USB and CAT cables now?
So you are being selective now? Are you trying to claim that audio cables are in some way miraculously different in their function than other types of cables also made of the same material?

jcbrum
17-03-2008, 19:54
As far as I can see, a proper test should go something like this :-

Cables or "interconnects" are commonly used between a signal source (TT or CDp) and an amp or pre-amp.

To avoid any effect on the sound, the source should be connected directly to the amp with no cable at all, using close proximity and short "barrels" or similar.

Then that sound may be taken as "correct" or "the reference".

Any cable which sounds the same is OK, and any cable which sounds different is "defective", in that it distorts the sound in some way.

Most £10 cables 6mm or so in diameter with connectors from a good maker such as Neutrik are OK. Most of the expensive ones that I have tried are defective with poor quality connectors. The connectors (particularly phono plugs, or RCA plugs) are far too bulky and gross causing them to be too stiff and distort the sockets they are used with. They do however have thin gold plating and a very high polish on the bodies to impress the ignorant. They are merely a "mugs eyeful" which sounds awful and will damage your sockets.

Anyone who is handy with a soldering iron can make excellent cables by using Neutrik connectors and good quality audio lead, bought by the metre from someone like RS or Farnell, or Action Hardware, http://www.actionhardware.co.uk/

jcbrum
17-03-2008, 20:03
It is not appropriate to compare usb cables with audio cables and the speed difference between usb1 and usb2 is due to an entirely different hardware standard which has nothing to do with the cable. this can be proved by any one who is interested by connecting a usb2 device to a usb1 computer socket. The device will run at the lower speed whether a usb1 or usb2 cable is used as the interconnect.

Using non audio specifications is a red herring as far as "audiophile interconnects" are concerned. It is about as relevant as saying that a different kettle lead will alter the mains from 240v to 110v. It's plainly laughable.

Mike
17-03-2008, 20:06
Agreed, more or less!

TBH, I don't really care is a cable is 'correct' or 'detective' or whatever. If I prefer the sound with 'cable A' in my system compared with 'cable B', then 'cable A' is "better"!

But when people say cables 'can't make a difference' or 'all sound the same' then they are talking bollocks. I can clearly hear a difference with several cables I have, and if anyone says I must be 'wrong' (because the can't understand why, usually) then they may feel free to disagree. Or kiss my arse! :ner:

Mike
17-03-2008, 20:08
It is about as relevant as saying that a different kettle lead will alter the mains from 240v to 110v. It's plainly laughable.

I can make you one that will do that if you like ?

Ashley James
17-03-2008, 20:10
So you are being selective now? Are you trying to claim that audio cables are in some way miraculously different in their function than other types of cables also made of the same material?

No I'm not! I'm saying that provided you use the correct type of cable for the job, there will not be audible differences.

In the case of our products we provide a loose specification and warn that any deviation or damage as a result of "experiments" will invalidate the guarantee.

Frankly I doubt that even a fraction of the people selling and making esoteric cables believe they have an effect, all they are concerned about is the stratospheric profits margins that can be made from preying on the gullible and knowledgeless.

Cable beliefs constitute one of the largest nails to have been driven into the coffin of our once great hi fi Industry.

Cable believers to me, are like people who believe they've seen flying saucers, been abducted by aliens or had sex with them. They are disillusioned people who for no accountable reason have no respect for science or even reason. Bring on the Moonies!

jcbrum
17-03-2008, 20:26
LOL mike, but can you stop the magic smoke from escaping as well.

I don't mind if you tweak the sound of your hifi till it makes you happy as long as some cable salesman, who was probably a milkman last week, (sorry milkmen everywhere), doesn't try to tell me that he understands science.

Ashley James
17-03-2008, 20:31
It blindingly obvious that every time some snake, oil sorry cable techie, pipes up with bogus science to promote his product, he's always convincingly demolished by the few scientifically knowledgeable who stray into this alien territory.

Mike
17-03-2008, 20:33
Oh FFS!......

Do any of you cable detractors actually understand how a pair of wires work? Simple you might think, just resistance, capacitance and inductance right?

No actually! those parameters are whats know as 'primary line constants', can any of you tell me about 'secondary line constant? Or the effects of 'group delay'? or the importance of 'characteristics impedance'? or...etc etc etc..

Lets start with something simple shall we:

Transmission Line Equations

If we consider only sinusoidal signals on a transmission line we can develop equations to model how the line behaves. If the line is considered to be constructed from very small elements of the parameters R, L, G and C for an elemental length http://emfs1.eps.hw.ac.uk/~ceeamc/em3/translines2/ddelta.gifz, then we can let the elemental length tend to zero developing the equation for a distributed parameter line. Note R is ohm/m etc.

http://emfs1.eps.hw.ac.uk/~ceeamc/em3/translines2/Image720.gif Figure A1 - Equivalent circuit for transmission line
The current and voltage equations are:

http://emfs1.eps.hw.ac.uk/~ceeamc/em3/translines2/Image721.gif

and http://emfs1.eps.hw.ac.uk/~ceeamc/em3/translines2/Image722.gif
If http://emfs1.eps.hw.ac.uk/~ceeamc/em3/translines2/ddelta.gifz is very small then:

(i) http://emfs1.eps.hw.ac.uk/~ceeamc/em3/translines2/Image723.gif and (ii) http://emfs1.eps.hw.ac.uk/~ceeamc/em3/translines2/Image724.gif

The negative signs indicate that the voltage and current reduce as we move away from the source.
Differentiating (i) and substituting http://emfs1.eps.hw.ac.uk/~ceeamc/em3/translines2/Image725.gif from (ii) gives:

http://emfs1.eps.hw.ac.uk/~ceeamc/em3/translines2/Image726.gif i.e. http://emfs1.eps.hw.ac.uk/~ceeamc/em3/translines2/Image727.gif
Similarly we can find, http://emfs1.eps.hw.ac.uk/~ceeamc/em3/translines2/Image728.gif
The solution of these differential equations is of the form:

(iii) http://emfs1.eps.hw.ac.uk/~ceeamc/em3/translines2/Image729.gif

Where z is the distance from the sending end, VS and IS are sending end parameters.

http://emfs1.eps.hw.ac.uk/~ceeamc/em3/translines2/gamma.gif is the propagation constant = http://emfs1.eps.hw.ac.uk/~ceeamc/em3/translines2/alpha.gif + jhttp://emfs1.eps.hw.ac.uk/~ceeamc/em3/translines2/beta.gif,
http://emfs1.eps.hw.ac.uk/~ceeamc/em3/translines2/alpha.gif is attenuation constant and
http://emfs1.eps.hw.ac.uk/~ceeamc/em3/translines2/beta.gif phase constant.
The characteristic impedance Z0 = http://emfs1.eps.hw.ac.uk/~ceeamc/em3/translines2/Image731.gif

And http://emfs1.eps.hw.ac.uk/~ceeamc/em3/translines2/gamma.gif = http://emfs1.eps.hw.ac.uk/~ceeamc/em3/translines2/Image732.gif
Equation (iii) indicates that there are two components of voltage at any point on the line, both are dependent on the position, z, on the line. They both represent travelling waves, Ae-http://emfs1.eps.hw.ac.uk/~ceeamc/em3/translines2/gamma.gifz represents a wave travelling in the z direction and Behttp://emfs1.eps.hw.ac.uk/~ceeamc/em3/translines2/gamma.gifz travels in the reverse direction. The amplitude and phase variation along the line is controlled by http://emfs1.eps.hw.ac.uk/~ceeamc/em3/translines2/gamma.gif, the propagation constant of the line. This term is, in general, complex, http://emfs1.eps.hw.ac.uk/~ceeamc/em3/translines2/gamma.gif = http://emfs1.eps.hw.ac.uk/~ceeamc/em3/translines2/alpha.gif + jhttp://emfs1.eps.hw.ac.uk/~ceeamc/em3/translines2/beta.gif. Attenuation, magnitude reduction, is related to http://emfs1.eps.hw.ac.uk/~ceeamc/em3/translines2/alpha.gif, the attenuation constant, and phase variation is related to http://emfs1.eps.hw.ac.uk/~ceeamc/em3/translines2/beta.gif, the phase constant. If the line is lossless, or ideal, R and G became zero and http://emfs1.eps.hw.ac.uk/~ceeamc/em3/translines2/Image737.gif. http://emfs1.eps.hw.ac.uk/~ceeamc/em3/translines2/alpha.gif becomes zero indicating no attenuation; no loss. The term http://emfs1.eps.hw.ac.uk/~ceeamc/em3/translines2/beta.gif is the units of radians/metre. If the wavelength of the signal on the line is http://emfs1.eps.hw.ac.uk/~ceeamc/em3/translines2/lambda.gif, this is the length which give 2http://emfs1.eps.hw.ac.uk/~ceeamc/em3/translines2/pi.gif radians of shift.
So http://emfs1.eps.hw.ac.uk/~ceeamc/em3/translines2/Image738.gif
Since velocity is defined as fhttp://emfs1.eps.hw.ac.uk/~ceeamc/em3/translines2/lambda.gif where f is frequency then:

Velocity of propagation http://emfs1.eps.hw.ac.uk/~ceeamc/em3/translines2/Image739.gif
Equation (i) may be written as:

http://emfs1.eps.hw.ac.uk/~ceeamc/em3/translines2/Image740.gif
If we differentiate equation (iii) and substitute in the above we get:

http://emfs1.eps.hw.ac.uk/~ceeamc/em3/translines2/Image741.gif

http://emfs1.eps.hw.ac.uk/~ceeamc/em3/translines2/Image742.gif
If we have the situation of no backward wave, i.e. the line is infinitely long, then B=0 and:

http://emfs1.eps.hw.ac.uk/~ceeamc/em3/translines2/Image743.gif
Since this is valid at any point on the line the ratio of voltage/current at any point is:

http://emfs1.eps.hw.ac.uk/~ceeamc/em3/translines2/Image744.gif and this is an impedance term.
It is know as the Characteristic Impedance of the line, Z0.
If the line has no losses this reduces to http://emfs1.eps.hw.ac.uk/~ceeamc/em3/translines2/Image745.gif.


Now... when you've fully digested that, come back for some more light reading!

:exactly:

Ashley James
17-03-2008, 20:36
You're getting carried away with yourself - forget it!
This is a spurious and irrelevant argument.

Mike
17-03-2008, 20:38
Oh!.... maybe I should point out that I make my own cables too... so the 'milkman' can also kiss my arse!

:ner:

P.S. No, I'm not 'in the trade' and do not sell cables. But it IS my job (and has been for almost three decades) to know how they work.

Mike
17-03-2008, 20:40
You're getting carried away with yourself - forget it!
This is a spurious and irrelevant argument.

No it's not!

I'm just pointing out that the detractors of the world are usually people who do not understand what they are talking about!

Thanks for helping to 'prove' my point! ;)

Mike
17-03-2008, 20:41
It blindingly obvious that every time some snake, oil sorry cable techie, pipes up with bogus science to promote his product, he's always convincingly demolished by the few scientifically knowledgeable who stray into this alien territory.

I do not have a 'product'.

Martin Grindrod
17-03-2008, 20:48
No it's not!

I'm just pointing out that the detractors of the world are usually people who do not understand what they are talking about!

Thanks for helping to 'prove' my point! ;)

Mike, well done for quoting the text books, you must surely be aware that the application of the theory relates to cable lengths that are significant fraction of a wavelength, since at audio the shortest wavelength is about 10km unless your hifi is in a different town to your speakers transmission line theory is not really relevant to speaker cables, sorry! :lol:

Mike
17-03-2008, 20:54
Quite right Martin!

In fact were 'talking' about interconnects, so it's even worse!!!

Just seeing if 'the muppet team' know what they are talking about, clearly they do not! So I set them a little 'homework'.

Sorry about the cut/paste 'technique', but it's far easier than typing out all that boring bollocks, AND I wouldn't have a clue how to get some of those characters! :confused:

Cheers,
Mike.

jcbrum
17-03-2008, 20:59
Mike, you may have misunderstood my post, I was not referring to you as "the milkman", I have met such types as I sure you have.

I am able to follow your mathematical modelling. It's very important to consider the factors you have illustrated but I'm sure you will agree when dealing with a signal frequencies below 20kHz and short lengths of "transmission line" say 3m or less then the effects you model so elegantly are small.

In practice domestic audio uses low impedance sources and high impedance inputs and unbalanced lines at low frequency, so as to keep everything low cost and simple.

If you use calculations like that every time you make a cable then it's more likely to be in a satellite, or a weapons system, than a hifi set.

I hope you understand that I'm not having a go at you.

jcbrum
17-03-2008, 21:04
Ah, Martins post crossed with mine, I was wondering how you got those characters to print. I haven't printed stuff like that from keyboard input since the seventies.

jcbrum
17-03-2008, 21:08
p.s. What's the next "light reading" ? Data density in vertical domain magnetic storage techniques ?

Mike
17-03-2008, 21:10
the effects you model so elegantly are small.

They are, to all intents and purposes, non existent!!! ;)

Just pointing out (somewhat elaborately, I admit!) that most folk think it's just 'LCR' and that's it, but that's not entirely the case at all.

I only mentioned 'the milkman' in case anyone might think I have something to sell. I do not!

:lolsign:

Mike
17-03-2008, 21:11
p.s. What's the next "light reading" ? Data density in vertical domain magnetic storage techniques ?

I was going to suggest 'group delay', but it will undoubtedly bring about the sudden onset of narcolepsy!

StanleyB
17-03-2008, 21:22
Why have tweeters and bass units, if the wavelengths are so small for them to be of no consequence?

jcbrum
17-03-2008, 21:24
Well as I understand it, in polite scientific terms, "small" means approximating to nil.

I'm bloody glad we've got Mr Grindrod on our side, we'd be right in the sticky-brown stuff without him !

p.s by "our side" I mean proper modern "Brit HiFi" like it's supposed to be.

StanleyB
17-03-2008, 21:25
I was going to suggest 'group delay', but it will undoubtedly bring about the sudden onset of narcolepsy!
That reminds me of the line of punters I saw standing outside a house of ill repute when I once visited Ijmuiden in Holland. THey were each waiting their turn for entry...

jcbrum
17-03-2008, 21:25
Sens,

That's to do with mechanical considerations of tranducers, not "transmission line theory"

StanleyB
17-03-2008, 21:28
proper modern "Brit HiFi" like it's supposed to be.
But it is a numbers game in terms of cost. British is meant to be expensive or poorly made.

StanleyB
17-03-2008, 21:31
Sens,

That's to do with mechanical considerations of tranducers, not "transmission line theory"
So the sound from the tweeter reaches your ears quicker than that of the bass because of the mechanical construction?

Mike
17-03-2008, 21:34
Why have tweeters and bass units, if the wavelengths are so small for them to be of no consequence?

Wavelengths are much shorter for soundwaves. Simple as that!

Basically it's speed/frequency. so, for electrical signals you are talking speed of light (more or less) divided by, say, 20,000 (Hz) = 15Km (give or take).
For sound it's, errr, the speed of sound divided by 20,000 (Hz) = 0.017M

I think! :scratch:

jcbrum
17-03-2008, 21:35
Well the stuff Ashley makes is neither in my opinion.

The design is excellent and elegant. Performance is stupendously good for the cost. You can deal directly with the factory if your dealer won't cooperate. And the costings are achieved by design skill and innovation, not shortcuts. I was happy to spend money with them.

Mike
17-03-2008, 21:37
Oh hang on!.... misread that!

I kind of thought you were meaning something to do with time alignment between bass units and HF units. Errr..

I'm going to shut up...

jcbrum
17-03-2008, 21:39
So the sound from the tweeter reaches your ears quicker than that of the bass because of the mechanical construction?

The sound reaches your ears at the same time because the propagation rate in air is independent of frequency, it's the wavelength that varies with frequency.

Mike
17-03-2008, 21:57
Hmmmm...

It may be a bit late in the thread but, at what price point does a cable (for example, an interconnect) become 'boutique' ??? :scratch:

:confused:

Mike
17-03-2008, 22:01
I'm bloody glad we've got Mr Grindrod on our side, we'd be right in the sticky-brown stuff without him !

Indeed!.... lucky that he 'popped in' just at the right moment with his first ever post, and promptly vanished again!!!

Who phoned him then, c'mon own up ??? :lolsign:

jcbrum
17-03-2008, 22:16
I suspect he's been watching from a great height. I'm afraid I was still typing my reply post while he was commenting on your post. He 'aint the only one that had you sussed though. ;)

jcbrum
17-03-2008, 22:17
Hmmmm...

It may be a bit late in the thread but, at what price point does a cable (for example, an interconnect) become 'boutique' ??? :scratch:

:confused:

£20

Mike
17-03-2008, 22:22
I suspect he's been watching from a great height. I'm afraid I was still typing my reply post while he was commenting on your post. He 'aint the only one that had you sussed though. ;)

Really!!! :lol:

There IS a relevant point in there that no-one has realised though!

jcbrum
17-03-2008, 22:24
I usually charge £10 per end and £1 per metre run, for ordinary stuff, and £3 / metre for posh stuff, inc connectors unless they're v special. But I'm not in hifi sales or supplies.

Ready made bought in cables usually cost less.

Marco
17-03-2008, 22:25
Well this thread has developed 'nicely' since I last looked at it!

Regarding the subject matter in hand, all I can do is comment from experience, and in 25 years of using 'proper' hi-fi equipment cables have always made a difference - sometimes good, sometimes bad, but for me differences have always been clearly audible, and I'm sorry, but I really don't care if these differences can be measured or not, or if what I hear is scientifically 'correct' or 'provable'.

Ashley and jc will hate me, but in my opinion good cables (and by 'good' I mean ones that simply transfer the audio signal with minimal contamination - something in my experience that cheap cables never manage) are essential to the performance of a hi-fi system. The simple fact is information lost at source cannot be regained further down the chain no matter how good the subsequent equipment is.

However cables are used far too often by 'audiophiles' as tone controls and as a band-aid to 'fix' systems that are already fundamentally broken. That's where the biggest problem is and why people go round and round in circles upgrading cables in an attempt to improve their systems and end up back to where they started!

For me how a hi-fi system is set-up (mains, cables and stands) is crucial to how musically satisfying the system ultimately is because experience tells me that there's a lot more to get right than simply selecting some boxes you like the sound of and plonking them together any old way. It is not how best results are achieved. Like anything else in life, attention to detail pays dividends.

Marco.

jcbrum
17-03-2008, 22:31
Wavelengths are much shorter for soundwaves. Simple as that!

Basically it's speed/frequency. so, for electrical signals you are talking speed of light (more or less) divided by, say, 20,000 (Hz) = 15Km (give or take).
For sound it's, errr, the speed of sound divided by 20,000 (Hz) = 0.017M

I think! :scratch:

Er, you can laugh :lol: , you got a bit f**ked up on this one :lolsign: .

I go back and have a look for your "deliberate error if Martin hasn't already beaten me to it :)

Mike
17-03-2008, 22:32
err.. yeah!

I'm tired!

Hang on a min...

Speed of light - 300,000,000m/s
Speed of sound - 344m/s

300,000,000/20,000 = 15,000m

344/20,000 = 0.0172m

Go on then..... where's th f*** up smart arse????

jcbrum
17-03-2008, 22:45
Ashley and jc will hate me, but in my opinion good cables (and by 'good' I mean ones that simply transfer the audio signal with minimal contamination - something in my experience that cheap cables never manage) are essential to the performance of a hi-fi system. The simple fact is information lost at source cannot be regained further down the chain no matter how good the subsequent equipment is.

Marco.

I don't hate anybody Marco, life's too short. The most that happens is that I get momentarily "pissed off" and then feel sorry about it and forgive the "offender". I've a feeling this forum is better than most, and the modding is more "intelligent".

Cable sounds can be different by putting the same cable on different kit. It's not the cable you can hear, it's the deficiencies in the kit.

FWIW, and it's no attempt at controversy, any interconnect that sounds different to a length of good quality microphone cable is probably causing "distortion" of some kind. Whether you like the sound or not is up to you.

I suspect that Ashley as a manufacture works to a "standard" for terminations and interconnects, and any cable which meets that spec sounds the same. Any cable which doesn't has to be regarded by a manufacturer as "outside spec" and therefore defective and unusable. It's perfectly understandable really.

Mike
17-03-2008, 22:50
any interconnect that sounds different to a length of good quality microphone cable is probably causing "distortion" of some kind.

Unless it 'sounds' (I thought you said cable has no sound?) better than the microphone cable. In whch case, using your logic, the micophone cable is causing "distortion of some kind"!

No?

jcbrum
17-03-2008, 22:58
err.. yeah!

I'm tired!

Hang on a min...

Speed of light - 300,000,000m/s
Speed of sound - 344m/s

300,000,000/20,000 = 15,000m

344/20,000 = 0.0172m

Go on then..... where's th f*** up smart arse????

:lol: There's not too much wrong with the calc, except it's not in proper imperial units. It's just that you weren't sure whether it was right or not, and whether it applied to Sens' question. It took you three goes to complain that there's nothing wrong with it ! :ner:

It's a far cry from that tranmission line theory that you gave me about sixty seconds to work through ! :ner: :peace:

WikiBoy
17-03-2008, 23:03
Unless it 'sounds' (I thought you said cable has no sound?) better than the microphone cable. In whch case, using your logic, the micophone cable is causing "distortion of some kind"!

No?

The advantage with a double act is they can piss on you from both directions. Really you are wasting your time and your intellegence, by far the best thing to do with a troll is ignore it, if you can't and want a bit of fun then take the piss out of them. Don't try to play the game at their level.

Cables are very simple - they make a profound difference to the reproduction of a music system, but with two proviso 1 the listener is not an idiot or deaf 2 the system being listened to is capable of resolving those differences. Obviously with these two daft prats one or the other or both is out of kilter.

Mike
17-03-2008, 23:04
What the hell are you on about??? :mental:

Go back to Richards 'Room101' I'm sure he'll welcome you with open arms!

Mike
17-03-2008, 23:05
Oops, crossed posts!

jcbrum
17-03-2008, 23:08
Unless it 'sounds' (I thought you said cable has no sound?) better than the microphone cable. In whch case, using your logic, the micophone cable is causing "distortion of some kind"!

No?

No, completely the opposite, anyway cables themselves don't "sound", It's the rest of the kit that "sounds"

The microphone cable should be the reference, If you like the sound that a different cable causes the kit to emit, then you are expressing a preference for a "distorted signal" . Which you are of course entitled to do but some people will think you might be "in error" or "mistaken" or even "wrong".

You could try putting very long (several Km) cables on unbalanced connectors and seeing if you find an "improvement" to test your transmission line theory.

The obvious "reference standard" is as I've said, No cable at all. Any thing which "sounds" the same as that has to be the right one !

Mike
17-03-2008, 23:11
No!

It's very, very simple.

Oh!... actually thats you! :doh:

jcbrum
17-03-2008, 23:14
:lol:What's the matter now ? run out of "smart-arse" maths again ? :lol:

jcbrum
17-03-2008, 23:18
Hello Richard, did you get bored all on your own with no-one to talk to, er, rant at ?

Marco
17-03-2008, 23:19
jc,


I don't hate anybody Marco, life's too short. The most that happens is that I get momentarily "pissed off" and then feel sorry about it and forgive the "offender". I've a feeling this forum is better than most, and the modding is more "intelligent".


That's a good attitude and thanks for the compliment. We do our best! I guess the good thing about starting an audio forum long after others were created is that you get to see what mistakes were made by those in charge and can then do something about it!!


Cable sounds can be different by putting the same cable on different kit. It's not the cable you can hear, it's the deficiencies in the kit.


I don't doubt that's what is happening on many occasions, but I think it goes somewhat deeper than that. I believe that all cables have a 'sonic signature', depending on the materials used (copper, silver, etc) and the construction of the plugs - even how the plugs are soldered. In fact, on many occasions I've heard plugs make more of a difference to an interconnect than the wire!


FWIW, and it's no attempt at controversy, any interconnect that sounds different to a length of good quality microphone cable is probably causing "distortion" of some kind. Whether you like the sound or not is up to you.


Quite possibly, but then the same could be said with equipment and everything else. At the end of the day, with hi-fi systems, I guess all we're doing is choosing our own particular brand of 'distortion'. Some systems have less overall than others, though! ;)


I suspect that Ashley as a manufacture works to a "standard" for terminations and interconnects, and any cable which meets that spec sounds the same. Any cable which doesn't has to be regarded by a manufacturer as "outside spec" and therefore defective and unusable. It's perfectly understandable really.


It seems like a perfectly sensible engineering approach for a manufacturer, but one that may not necessary translate so effectively when applied to setting up a domestic hi-fi system. 'Outside spec' in that context is not really relevant. 25 years + of using and experimenting with hi-fi equipment tells me cables make a difference - it's just that many 'audiophiles' use them in the wrong way.

Marco.

Mike
17-03-2008, 23:31
:lol:What's the matter now ? run out of "smart-arse" maths again ? :lol:

There was no smart arse maths, it's simple electronics. Just not as simple as you apparently!

So lets keep it simple.

1. Are you saying that a cable does not affect a systems sound?

2. Do 'boutique' cables make a difference, ie. one costing more than £20?

3. Are you prepared to agree to an independent test? (I have an idea).

jcbrum
17-03-2008, 23:32
I'll go with that Marco,

Personally, because I do some original live recording, and some 78 transcription to digital, then it's a valuable quality for me if my re-play kit does not "alter" the sound at all, unless I decide to cause an "enhancement" by way of "eq" or "mix" or something.

It's certainly true that recording engineers select microphones for a particular "sound" characteristic, so I suppose changing your valves or cables to do the same thing is just as valid.

I always work with the same pair of microphones that I have owned for many years, and don't like it if anything alters the sound.

I like what comes out of the speakers to reflect what originally occurred, although I accept that commercial recordings are produced to a specific "mix" which pleases the producers.

I suppose once you accept that you are going to "alter" the sound, it doesn't really matter how or where or when you do it.

jcbrum
17-03-2008, 23:42
There was no smart arse maths, it's simple electronics. Just not as simple as you apparently!

So lets keep it simple.

1. Are you saying that a cable does not affect a systems sound?

2. Do 'boutique' cables make a difference, ie. one costing more than £20?

3. Are you prepared to agree to an independent test? (I have an idea).

Yes there was "smart-arse" maths, you quoted pages of it on a "cut/paste" basis to deliberately attempt intimidation. A trick used by "thick bullies". Fortunately it didn't work. You are forgiven. Don't do it again.

Generally I am not happy with paying more than £20 for a cable, as I am capable of designing and constructing a faultless one for that cost, myself.

In view of you accusations and hostility I'm wary of more trickery, but tell me your idea before I agree to anything.

jcbrum
17-03-2008, 23:56
It's nearly midnight, and wifey says I must go to bed. TTFN.

Mike
18-03-2008, 00:00
Firstly.... the cut/paste was merely so I didn't have to dig out my old notes and attempt to transcribe them manually, I would have been unable too anyway as would not have a bloody clue how to 'type' most of those sodding symbols. It's still not 'smart arse maths' though, it's some of the basic theory stuff I was force fed as an apprentice in 1980-1983!

The test!

Easy!

We will need a/some volunteer(s) who are independent (preferably non trade) willing to do listening tests!

I will make two sets of one meter interconnects, one costing less than £20 and one costing more than £20.

Assuming there are several volunteers, I will send the cables to 'tester No1' who will make his evaluation and then send the cables to 'tester No2' and so on, the final 'tester' will then return my cables.

While the cables are in circulation, non of the testers will make any comments on their performance. Once the cables have completed their journey, all 'testers' will then email their conclusions to a non participating forum member (another volunteer) who will post all the findings here!

If you like, you may also submit cable(s) for their consideration as a 'reference'.

If it is concluded that there is no merit in the 'boutique' cable, I will STFU forever! :confused:

Fair enough?

Lowrider
18-03-2008, 06:21
Cables are very simple - they make a profound difference to the reproduction of a music system, but with two proviso 1 the listener is not an idiot or deaf 2 the system being listened to is capable of resolving those differences. Obviously with these two daft prats one or the other or both is out of kilter.

So true, in the present thread both apply, are this guys trying to sell anything in this forum... :mental:

Mike
18-03-2008, 07:48
So true, in the present thread both apply, are this guys trying to sell anything in this forum... :mental:

Not me. I have nothing to sell to anyone. just a deaf idiot to deal with. ;)

Lowrider
18-03-2008, 07:52
You know who I mean, and it is not you... :nocomment:

StanleyB
18-03-2008, 09:44
So true, in the present thread both apply, are this guys trying to sell anything in this forum... :mental:
Sell what? I manufacture one of the world's most popular product of its type. I would say that I am in the top 10 in terms of quality and value for money of my product. I challenge you to name it and point me to anywhere or anyone on this site who has discussed my item.

It is this kind of blind comments that has caused me not to mention it here. The same type of BS was the reason I got banned form another site after people start writing that I had a hidden agenda and that I was selling my product via the site by just being there.

Lowrider
18-03-2008, 09:48
OMG... :doh:

I am hitting all the wrong guys, of course I mean the ipod speakers guys... :confused:

Ashley James
18-03-2008, 09:54
Sell what? I manufacture one of the world's most popular product of its type. I would say that I am in the top 10 in terms of quality and value for money of my product. I challenge you to name it and point me to anywhere or anyone on this site who has discussed my item.

It is this kind of blind comments that has caused me not to mention it here. The same type of BS was the reason I got banned form another site after people start writing that I had a hidden agenda and that I was selling my product via the site by just being there.

I think it's arrogant of any Forum to assume that anything will sell off comments made about it by the manufacturers.

The plain fact is that Forums aren't held in high esteem by the greater majority and anyone interested in something has to plough through acres of vitriol and assenine comment to discover anything about something that could he find anywhere else in a fraction of the time.

The only reason I came on this and one other Forum was that it represented the absolute opposite of what we've always stood for and I was interested to see if even basic logic could prevail. The answer is that it does with some, but not enough and it's probably not worth the effort.

As for sales or even a measurable increase in traffic to our website; There a no changes I can see and I wouldn't expect them. Just as we are, so are our customers, the antipathy of these Forums.

There's no gain for us or you either and if you mention your product and it's anything to do with audio, they'll probably slag it off. Does that matter? - No it doesn't, it's what people expect.

jcbrum
18-03-2008, 09:58
I don't mind listening to your cables mike, in fact I would be quite interested.

I don't need all the palaver of a journey around "independent" testers, but I don't object to you setting all that up if you think it's important to you.

Just send the cables to my local dealer, whom I trust, and where I can try several sets of kit with them.

All this is ok if they are not LS cables, as I don't use those, and would therefore have no interest at all in them. I assume that from your 1m spec, they are RCA connectors.

You won't be required to STFU, we'd have to take the piss out of someone else then !

Mike
18-03-2008, 16:50
You won't be required to STFU, we'd have to take the piss out of someone else then !

I see!..... so you admit that all you have said is a 'piss take' then?

:ner:

leo
27-03-2008, 20:53
Anybody see this ? sorry if its already been posted http://www.asa.org.uk/asa/adjudications/Public/TF_ADJ_44177.htm

sastusbulbas
27-03-2008, 23:06
Anybody see this ? sorry if its already been posted http://www.asa.org.uk/asa/adjudications/Public/TF_ADJ_44177.htm

My question is,

Will anyone here understand what it implies?

So far on all other forums we have a bandwagon everyone has jumped on, will this be the same?

My opinion is that no answer claim or opinion has been substantiated by the ASA regarding the "subject others think implied" tag.
All which has happened is a certain trade member could not substantiate claims made by his advertising, which another forum member took offence to. As RA could not substantiate his claims against an alternative unproven opinion, and the onus was on him as the advertiser to do so, he has been asked to rephrase some of the wording in some of his adverts.

Of course I myself will now be branded on many forums due to my replies, regardless of my own opinion. Though I would like to point out on this forum I have had published argument and disagreement in the past with RA's opinion, and also use RA mains products.
Mainly RA power blocks (unfiltered), and RA mains cables (mostly free), and have no complaints to make about them, apart from length, stiffness and one old one having a touchy end. (Stop thinking like that you dirty buggers!)

:)

Colinx
27-03-2008, 23:21
Having read the ASA response, would I be correct in reading it as:-
Our expert thinks that probably it does not do all that it claims to do, but it does do some of it. You however, Mr Seller can not prove it does, and as we do not have to prove it does not, come over here, we are going to slap your wrist. Next time you want to make this type of claim, get a stack of people in blindfolds to listen to music, with and without your cable, and say yours is better and you may not get a slap.

WikiBoy
27-03-2008, 23:46
Anybody see this ? sorry if its already been posted http://www.asa.org.uk/asa/adjudications/Public/TF_ADJ_44177.htm

Bloody daft for it to be posted and bloody daft for other forums to make hay over it. How can you get a objective bureaucratic organisation to pronounce on a subjective assessment and criteria - how pointless can you get. They will pronouncing on the claims about the taste of wine next :mental:

OK Russ is probably the UKs #1 BSer and overpricer, but he either makes it or finds it and puts it out there for you to choose to buy or not.

Ali Tait
01-05-2008, 20:41
Hi Steve/All,
What I believe Nick is saying is that we,as DIYers,are in a position where we can tailor the sound of our equipment to suit our tastes by changing components such as coupling caps,resistors,output transformers etc.I think we have found in general that changing such things makes a far greater difference than changing just the cables,such that we don't feel the need to spend a lot of money on I/C's or speaker cable.We are not saying cables do not make a difference,because they quite obviously do,it's just that we can effect a much greater change in the presentation of our systems by spending(a lot!) less money on components instead.When I first got into this DIY lark,I was using some Audioquest speaker cable(I forget the model) which had cost me around 350 quid.I then made a set of Twisted Twins,a recipe from the TNT website,which had generated a fair bit of interest in the DIY community,with a lot of people saying how good they were.These I found to be superb,far better than the Audioquest,and completed for the princely sum of 35 quid(most of that going on good-quality banana plugs) .A very good I/C can be made using CT100 coax tv cable from Maplins (pence per metre).Cut to the desired length,then use a pair of pliers to pull out the solid copper wire in the centre.Feed some small-gauge silver wire through in place of the copper wire(readily available from such places as world-designs,hi-fi collective,ebay etc.) Use the silver wire as the signal wire,and the copper braid round the outside as the return,and terminate with the RCA's of your choice.This cable will compete with commercial designs costing hundreds of pounds.It's when you try simple things like this for yourself that you realise that you can make something with very little effort that will compete with very expensive commercial designs.I think this is why we tend to be a little dismissive of cables in general,in that with the money we save doing this,we can buy some new components or transformers(which have a far greater impact) or best of all,spend the money on more music instead!
Now I realise that many people don't feel the inclination or need to DIY,but if you do try this for yourself,you will wonder why on earth you've spent all that money on those fancy commercial designs! I'm not saying there isnt commercial stuff that will better what I've described above,but it won't be by much,and it will cost you a great deal of money.I know what I'd rather spend the money on!

Regards,Ali.

jcbrum
01-05-2008, 20:53
Ali, are you saying there is an audible difference between copper core and silver core ?

jcbrum
01-05-2008, 21:00
Mick, participating on this forum is not marketing :)


Why do small hifi companys market themselves so badly.

This is a generalisation which is not accurate at least in the case of one company, which has an excellent website, excellent sales figures, and whose equipment I use myself.

However, don't let the facts spoil a good post ;)

Mike
01-05-2008, 21:12
Ali, are you saying there is an audible difference between copper core and silver core ?

I believe he is.

And I wholeheartedly agree with him. Which is 'better' would depend on so many things that it's really not worth me waffling on about it though. It's mainly a matter of 'taste' IMHO.

:)

jcbrum
01-05-2008, 21:20
Mike, can you say why and how this difference occurs ?

Marco
01-05-2008, 21:29
John,

I've always found solid silver cables to offer the best performance, but the commercially produced ones cost a fortune. That's why the D.I.Y guys go for solid silver because they can make very good cables for a fraction of the price, and they also work synergistically with valve gear. Silver plated copper cables are crap, though, in my experience.

Marco.

Mike
01-05-2008, 21:32
Erm.... On that note...

I tend to use silver plated copper! :lol:

Mike
01-05-2008, 21:35
Mike, can you say why and how this difference occurs ?


Hi John,

Nope, sorry..... Better men than I have tried and failed on that score. There are so many variables that I wouldn't know where to start. I guess it all boils down to what works for 'you'?

Marco
01-05-2008, 21:37
Hahahahaha... I knew someone would say that! :lolsign:

The thing is there are so many variables involved it's impossible to reach a definitive conclusion. In my experience, with the ones I've tried, they tend to have a bright 'edgy' character that I really don't like.

I'm not saying yours are necessarily like that though, Mike.

Marco.

jcbrum
01-05-2008, 21:42
I'm not looking for a fight :) I'm enquiring. I am very familiar with the performance of cables, inc silver and silver plated ones. I just wanted to know what you guys say.



silver cables to offer the best performance,

Could you elaborate and explain what that means please ?

Marco
01-05-2008, 21:44
As in they do the least to degrade the audio signal - that's all good cables can do. All cables are 'bad', but the better ones are 'less bad', if that makes sense.

Marco.

jcbrum
01-05-2008, 21:44
Hi John,

Nope, sorry..... Better men than I have tried and failed on that score. There are so many variables that I wouldn't know where to start. I guess it all boils down to what works for 'you'?

I'll accept that :)

jcbrum
01-05-2008, 21:46
As in they do the least to degrade the audio signal - that's all good cables can do.

So you can hear the increased degradation of copper over silver ? Have I got that right ?

Marco
01-05-2008, 21:56
In general, yes, but like Mike says there are so many variables involved (plugs used for example make a huge difference, as the quality of mechanical connection is very important) it's impossible to reach a definitive conclusion over core types, so you just choose what works synergistically within a given system context.

Where is this discussion going, JC?

Marco.

Mike
01-05-2008, 22:02
synergistically


The next person to use that term will be ritualistically killed and eaten!

I have a 'pet hate' for the use of 'buzzwords'!!!!! :steam:

Marco
01-05-2008, 22:06
It's not a "buzzword" for me, Mike. Synergy is a very important concept to get right within a system if it is to sound musically convincing and enjoyable. You could also call it 'the correct matching of interfaces'.

Assembling a musically rewarding hi-fi system is not a perfect science, so that's why a certain amount of subjective thinking is necessary. Achieving system 'synergy' is one such example.

Steve (Toy) will I'm sure comment on this as his recent experience with M.I.T cables is a valid case in point.

Marco.

jcbrum
01-05-2008, 22:13
Where is this discussion going, JC?

Dunno, you're leading atm. :)

I don't use interconnects.

I know people who would say a copper cable and a silver plated cable have identical performance at audio frequencies, and was wondering which of you is accurate.

Mike
01-05-2008, 22:15
It's not a "buzzword" for me, Mike. Synergy is a very important concept to get right within a system if it is to sound musically convincing and enjoyable. You could also call it 'the correct matching of interfaces'.

Assembling a musically rewarding hi-fi system is not a perfect science, so that's why a certain amount of subjective thinking is necessary. Achieving system 'synergy' is one such example.

Steve (Toy) will I'm sure comment on this as his recent experience with M.I.T cables is a valid case in point.

Marco.

Right, thats it!!!

Someone pass the garlic and olive oil!!!! :steam: :smoking:

Marco
01-05-2008, 22:23
John,

That's fine - everyone's experiences are relevant.

All I can say is that whenever I've introduced a silver plated copper cable into my system it has resulted in a bright, harsh, sound which emphasises upper frequencies in an unnatural sounding way. Copper always tends to sound 'warmer' and more 'natural' sounding to my ears, but there are a good and bad copper cables, too. Solid silver is always best, but expensive.

I mentioned plugs, and IMO, they make more difference in many cases to the effect of interconnects or speaker cables than the actual wire used. The integrity of the mechanical connection between equipment and cables is very important and this is where I feel most of the difference in performance occurs.

Marco.

Chris Frost
02-05-2008, 07:42
I read somewhere that at higher the frequencies the energy travels closer to the surface of a cable. I don't know if that's true or just marketing BS, but it might be a factor as to why plated cables sound harsher than solid silver or copper.

One thing that is true is that putting two different metals together can create a battery effect. Now bearing in mind how many dissimilar metals and solders are used in the construction of a circuit I wonder if any DIY'er has ever tried to reduce this number and what the results were achieved.

Regards

Filterlab
02-05-2008, 08:31
I believe he is.

And I wholeheartedly agree with him....

Me too, silver is an excellent audio signal conductor, although as Mike said it's a matter of personal taste. Silver cables (to my ears) let more upper frequency information through and have a cleaner (albeit more clinical) sound. Some prefer the edginess of copper though.

jcbrum
02-05-2008, 08:41
I read somewhere that at higher the frequencies the energy travels closer to the surface of a cable. I don't know if that's true or just marketing BS, but it might be a factor as to why plated cables sound harsher than solid silver or copper.

One thing that is true is that putting two different metals together can create a battery effect. Now bearing in mind how many dissimilar metals and solders are used in the construction of a circuit I wonder if any DIY'er has ever tried to reduce this number and what the results were achieved.

Regards

I think what you are recalling is called the "skin effect" but it doesn't occur at audio frequencies, only upper rf.

A battery requires "electrolyte" and chemical consumption. It produces DC which would be blocked by capacitors, and cannot form part of an audio signal which is non-sinusoidal AC.

Isn't it more sensible to design hifi to use plain copper cables and standard connectors, and be affordable ?

Filterlab
02-05-2008, 08:53
...Isn't it more sensible to design hifi to use plain copper cables and standard connectors, and be affordable ?

For lower end stuff, yes. But the idea surely with hi-fi is to get as close to the original signal as possible, if certain materials become prohibitive in obtaining transparency then the only thing is to replace those materials.

jcbrum
02-05-2008, 09:29
And do you think that cannot be done with copper ?

Filterlab
02-05-2008, 09:59
Copper is good, but has limitations particularly when used over long runs. It's not really a case of whether it can be done with copper, more a case of why use it when something better is available?

Saying that I'm no electronics engineer so I don't know the specific ins and outs, but from what I've read there do seem to be alternatives. I have silver speaker cable (well plated anyway) and it works remarkably well! I tried some silver interconnects and they didn't work as well for me, but then I only tried one set. It's the age old suck it and see thing with hi-fi, what'll work for some won't work for others.

jcbrum
02-05-2008, 10:09
Copper is good, but has limitations particularly when used over long runs. It's not really a case of whether it can be done with copper, more a case of why use it when something better is available?

Saying that I'm no electronics engineer so I don't know the specific ins and outs, but from what I've read there do seem to be alternatives. I have silver speaker cable (well plated anyway) and it works remarkably well! I tried some silver interconnects and they didn't work as well for me, but then I only tried one set. It's the age old suck it and see thing with hi-fi, what'll work for some won't work for others.

Hmmm ... BT seem to be able to make copper work on long runs, and so do location recording companies and tv studios. But they use engineers.

Why do you think the performance of hi-end hifi cables is so variable, in that it works for some and not others ?

Have you tried Aluminium ?

shane
02-05-2008, 10:32
There is a supplier on Ebay who sells Teflon insulated silver-plated copper cable, screened and unscreened in various configurations (one of which looks remarkably like Soniqs ICT) which is all US military surplus. It would be interesting to know what the military use it for; somehow I doubt that they're worried about what it sounds like! I have also seen the same stuff used in semiconductor manufacturing equipment. Here I can understand why they need Teflon insulation (to withstand harsh chemical environments and high temperatures) but why silver-plated? There must be some benefit.

Filterlab
02-05-2008, 10:42
Hmmm ... BT seem to be able to make copper work on long runs, and so do location recording companies and tv studios. But they use engineers.

Yes, but BT are not trying to capture the essence and realism of music - far trickier than merely sending a limited data signal of restricted frequency range specific to the emitter and receiver. In no way can that be compared to capturing an audio signal without loss. And who says that studios use copper cables? Many studios use VERY technologically clever cables that aren't necessarily copper. I've heard of studios using carbon cables, silver cables and all kinds of specifically engineered non-metallic cables.


Why do you think the performance of hi-end hifi cables is so variable, in that it works for some and not others ?

Why do some people like sports cars and not saloons? Why do some people like beer and not others? Why do some love flying and others not?

There is no specific reply really, it's all a matter of taste. :)


Have you tried Aluminium ?

Given it's conductivity (superconductivity I believe) it's likely that Aluminium would be interesting if used for hi-fi purposes although I know not of any commercially available cables made from Aluminium despite it being more conductive than copper. Could be a good experiment though, although whilst its ductility would make it appropriate for cables I'm not sure of its longevity if frequently moved (i.e. in terms of malleability). As I said I'm no electronics engineer!

What I do know is that I use a combination of silver plated copper and copper cables all to the effect I want. The science behind it doesn't cross my mind, the sound I hear does. ;)

jcbrum
02-05-2008, 10:55
Quote:
Originally Posted by jcbrum
Why do you think the performance of hi-end hifi cables is so variable, in that it works for some and not others ?

Filterlab Answer - Why do some people like sports cars and not saloons? Why do some people like beer and not others? Why do some love flying and others not? There is no specific reply really, it's all a matter of taste.


My response - Well this is nothing to do with the cables then, it's simply a difference in the people. That's what I had suspected.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------


Quote:
Originally Posted by jcbrum
Hmmm ... BT seem to be able to make copper work on long runs, and so do location recording companies and tv studios. But they use engineers.

Filterlab Answer - Yes, but BT are not trying to capture the essence and realism of music - far trickier than merely sending a limited data signal of restricted frequency range specific to the emitter and receiver. In no way can that be compared to capturing an audio signal without loss. And who says that studios use copper cables? Many studios use VERY technologically clever cables that aren't necessarily copper. I've heard of studios using carbon cables, silver cables and all kinds of specifically engineered non-metallic cables.


My response, speaking as an engineer I'd have to disagree with you on this one, but since it's not actually hifi, we'll save it for another day :)

Filterlab
02-05-2008, 10:59
...My response - Well this is nothing to do with the cables then, it's simply a difference in the people. That's what I had suspected...

If I change cables and can tell a difference then it IS the cables, regardless of what you think as an engineer. As an engineer you should know about capacitance, inductance, resistance and the resulting effects from those properties which of course vary between cables. ;)

lurcher
02-05-2008, 11:00
Given it's conductivity (superconductivity I believe) it's likely that Aluminium would be interesting if used for hi-fi purposes although I know not of any commercially available cables made from Aluminium despite it being more conductive than copper.

Copper is a considerably better conductor that aluminium.

Mike
02-05-2008, 11:02
There is a supplier on Ebay who sells Teflon insulated silver-plated copper cable, screened and unscreened in various configurations (one of which looks remarkably like Soniqs ICT) which is all US military surplus. It would be interesting to know what the military use it for; somehow I doubt that they're worried about what it sounds like! I have also seen the same stuff used in semiconductor manufacturing equipment. Here I can understand why they need Teflon insulation (to withstand harsh chemical environments and high temperatures) but why silver-plated? There must be some benefit.


Would that be THIS (http://stores.ebay.co.uk/Johns-Silver-Teflon-Wire-Shop_W0QQssPageNameZstrkQ3amefsQ3amesstQQtZkm) fella by any chance Shane?

I've bought a few bits & pieces off the bloke above, and very good they are too. The Kapton insulated stuff is a bit of a bugger to work with though, and to my ears doesn't sound quite as nice as the Teflon stuff.

We may be wandering off topic a bit here, all this may be better off being moved to the 'Boutique Cable' thread.

;)

Tony Moore
02-05-2008, 11:06
Not by weight it isn't.

Eh?

Filterlab
02-05-2008, 11:07
Copper is a considerably better conductor that aluminium.

Aluminium is around 65% of the conductivity, although by weight Aluminium is a better conductor (according to what I've read - I'm no electronics engineer).

Filterlab
02-05-2008, 11:10
Anyway, aren't we steering a little off subject here? :confused: :)

Filterlab
02-05-2008, 11:11
Copper is a considerably better conductor that aluminium.

Sorry, my error, I was reading about thermal in that instance. D'OH!

jcbrum
02-05-2008, 11:23
If I change cables and can tell a difference then it IS the cables, regardless of what you think as an engineer. As an engineer you should know about capacitance, inductance, resistance and the resulting effects from those properties which of course vary between cables. ;)

Ahhh, but the other people, particularly the engineers and the scientists, say you, the "unqualified" are deluding yourself ;) thats' why only you can hear it :confused:

As an engineer I know all about the things you mention, and transmission line theory as well (mike :) ) and science says all that is irrelevant at audio frequencies on short cables like we all use with line level signals and correct impedance matching.

I'm just glad my hifi doesn't need any of this dubious stuff :smoking:

Mike
02-05-2008, 11:31
As an engineer I know all about the things you mention, and transmission line theory as well (mike :) ) and science says all that is irrelevant at audio frequencies on short cables like we all use with line level signals and correct impedance matching.

Quite true!... And yet folk CAN still hear a difference! Go figure! :scratch:

Filterlab
02-05-2008, 11:35
Ahhh, but the other people, particularly the engineers and the scientists, say you, the "unqualified" are deluding yourself ;) thats' why only you can hear it :confused:

As an engineer I know all about the things you mention, and transmission line theory as well (mike :) ) and science says all that is irrelevant at audio frequencies on short cables like we all use with line level signals and correct impedance matching.

I'm just glad my hifi doesn't need any of this dubious stuff :smoking:

:lol: LOL! Yeah, I know what you mean mate. My interconnects were made by an electronics engineer I know and they cost me pennies (literally), they're the best sounding cables I've ever heard and I tried them against a whole heap of £200/£300/£400 interconnects and they still came out on top. Oddly I've not found anything better (for my ears) than my QED X-Tube400 for the speakers, although that's not very expensive either.

I understand science says that some things are irrelevant at certain frequencies etc etc, but sound is as much art as it is science. As for being deluded - questionable bearing in mind I found the cheaper cables worked over the expensive ones - I'm not choosing by price, I'm choosing by results. :)

As I said, I'm no engineer so I don't really understand the science behind it, but I do know when my system sounds better for changing a cable and that's how I do my buying. After all, a £9.99 CD player should sound as good as a £10,000 player if we believe everything that science tells us, but I can assure you that isn't the case, not even slightly.

Maybe I'm at an advantage not being conditioned by the science behind it and what "should" and "shouldn't" sound good. ;)

Filterlab
02-05-2008, 11:37
Quite true!... And yet folk CAN still hear a difference! Go figure! :scratch:

Good post, exactly what I said but with far less waffle. :lol:

Mmmmm, waffles...

http://blog.menupirate.com/images/drooling_homer.png

Mike
02-05-2008, 11:46
I've moved all this talk about cables from the 'AVI HQ' thread.

Cheers,
Mike.

Filterlab
02-05-2008, 11:49
Indeed. :)

lurcher
02-05-2008, 12:36
My response - Well this is nothing to do with the cables then, it's simply a difference in the people. That's what I had suspected.

I suspect that if people focused on the parts of the cable that insulated instead of the part that conducted there would be more scientific reason for them to sound different.

For example: http://www.zeusinc.com/newsletter/dielectric.asp

Also and related, several of the more experimental transformer winders have found that the makeup of the insulation between layers can have significant effects on the resulting transformer.

Filterlab
02-05-2008, 12:39
Good link, interesting stuff too. Helps us non-electronic heads to understand a bit more.

Marco
02-05-2008, 12:52
JC,

Re: cable effects and supposed listener "imagination", as they say, 'wind yer neck in', there's a good lad!

Bloody engineers, they're all the same ;)

Rob, when you come up next weekend, bring your cables with you. I would like to do a little test with them against the Transparents. It should be an educational experience for both of us :smoking:

Marco.

Filterlab
02-05-2008, 12:54
Hokey koke!

I think you may be surprised, as might I be by the sounds of it. :)

Marco
02-05-2008, 13:05
It should be interesting :)

The thing that should be remembered about cables is that once you go beyond anything that's superior to the cheapo 'patch leads' which come with budget gear, the differences are without doubt subtle - no 'decent quality' cable, D.I.Y made or not, is going to make your system sound 'broken'.

*BUT* it is often the subtle differences which turn merely good systems into great ones, and transform something which sounds simply like good 'hi-fi' into believable sounding, emotionally expressive music. THAT is what the best cables can do over the merely ordinary...

Marco.

shane
02-05-2008, 13:07
Would that be THIS (http://stores.ebay.co.uk/Johns-Silver-Teflon-Wire-Shop_W0QQssPageNameZstrkQ3amefsQ3amesstQQtZkm) fella by any chance Shane?

Yup, that's him. And very good he is too. The ICT lookalike works out at around £1/metre.

Mike
02-05-2008, 13:11
I once bought a load of QED Silver Anniversary speaker cable to have a go at bi-wiring my old Epos ES14's.

They actually did make my system sound broken. Truly shocking!!!
They were on ebay so fast it would make your head spin.

I kind of wish I'd kept them now, would have made a very good night/day kind of demo!

Filterlab
02-05-2008, 13:15
It should be interesting :)

The thing that should be remembered about cables is that once you go beyond anything that's superior to the cheapo 'patch leads' which come with budget gear, the differences are without doubt subtle - no 'decent quality' cable, D.I.Y made or not, is going to make your system sound 'broken'.


Indeed, the differences I noted between the interconnects I tried were subtle to say the least. Of course it's quite system dependent too. :)

Looking forward to it mate.

Filterlab
02-05-2008, 13:16
I once bought a load of QED Silver Anniversary speaker cable to have a go at bi-wiring my old Epos ES14's.

They actually did make my system sound broken. Truly shocking!!!
They were on ebay so fast it would make your head spin.

I kind of wish I'd kept them now, would have made a very good night/day kind of demo!

Yeah, the SA was not good at all - someone once said "like listening through a megaphone". :( Never tried it myself.

Mike
02-05-2008, 13:31
I wouldn't be surprised if the 'rumours' of silver plated copper sounding harsh came from using that stuff. At least in the context of the setup I had at the time (Linn LK280/Spark --> Epos ES14) it was absolutely terrible !!! Twin & Earth mains cable slaughtered it, as did just about anything. :(

These days I'm using Chord Odyssey 4, which is very good if maybe a bit on the expensive and over-hyped side. At least I got it half-price though. :)

I have some other stuff tucked away also, which is amazingly good, but way too long for my current system layout. "Why not shorten it?" I hear you ask!.... Ah well!... I'll explain some other time. ;)

Cheers,
Mike.

Filterlab
02-05-2008, 13:32
"Why not shorten it?" I hear you ask!.... Ah well!... I'll explain some other time. ;)

Cheers,
Mike.

Why not shorten it? And tell us now tell us now tell us now tell us now tell us now tell us now tell us now tell us now tell us now tell us now tell us now tell us now tell us now tell us now tell us now tell us now tell us now tell us now tell us now tell us now tell us now tell us now tell us now tell us now tell us now. :)

evilpsycho666
02-05-2008, 13:44
Silver is 5% more conductive than copper. This is irrelevant since the components in hifi equipment mostly have a bigger tolerance than that. Anyway you could compensate by altering the length. 100cms of copper has exactly the same conductivity as 106cms of silver and no one can hear the difference although some will imagine that they can. Gold has about 60% the conductivity of copper, so why arn't plugs and socket silver plated ?. Its all hifi phoolery.

Mike
02-05-2008, 13:54
Oh... you're back!

There are plenty of silver plated connectors about BTW.

Filterlab
02-05-2008, 14:09
...so why aren't plugs and socket silver plated?..

Well, quite a lot are actually, particularly in high end hi-fi.

I might shorten my speaker cables tonight for a bit of an experiment, don't need anywhere near the current length I have.

evilpsycho666
02-05-2008, 16:19
Oh... your back!

Don't let it frighten you. it's been that way ever since I was at Notre Dame. :)

Steve Toy
02-05-2008, 16:27
Cables and interconnects can make or break a system to the point that you can be listening to whole CDs through without interruption with disc after disc or not listening to your system at all.

I was reminded of this only yesterday and today. (The Reductionistic Objectivists, who wouldn't know decent recorded music if it slapped them in the face, please either take note or bugger off from this point:)

I've had the chance to listen to some of the new range of MIT cables at Audio Works. In the shop using systems familiar to the guys that work there they could be described as a panacea in terms of their performance and for very little outlay too. I heard the AVT2 and 1 interconnects (£130 and £175 respectively) and they both blew away my Siltech SQ 28s that originally cost a shade under £400 a pair. They bettered the Siltechs in all areas - timing, tunefulness, frequency extension, detail and overall coherence. As a no-cost upgrade the temptation was irresistible so last week I ordered two pairs of the 1s.

I returned to collect them yesterday. I left one pair of my SQ 28s at the shop for the purposes of letting it go on Ebay and before I left I got to hear a Bel Canto CD2 in conjunction with the i/cs I'd just bought. It sounded utterly lifeless. The bass was vague, soft, ill-defined, lacked texture, the midrange was inoffensive but tuneless and the top end sounded decidedly rolled off. The timing was also very off. Larry swapped a £850 Creek player in its place and the music (Jack Johnson Sleep through the static) snapped back into temporal focus and regained life. Ok so an £850 CD player was wiping the floor with a £2400 one the same as I bought only a couple of weeks ago. Right ho...:scratch: :(

Perhaps it was the amp. I've not really been a huge fan of Accuphase integrateds... As I picked up the two pairs of AVT1s, Larry asked if I was sure and stated only to take only one pair if I thought I'd need to bring them back. I dismissed the possibility of not being blown away by them, took them home and swapped out the SQ28 between pre (my Spectral DMC-15) and power (Puresound A30 Class A valve amp) initially. The first thing I noticed with JJ above was that the bass was now boomy and overblown. Not good. So I quickly and nervously swapped the other SQ28 between the Bel Canto and pre for the new bargain panacea interconnect from MIT. The bass boom had gone. Phew!

I kicked back and started listening. I tried tapping my feet but it just wasn't happening. My ankles seemed to grind with any such attempt. The bass boom had gone. The bass had gone. It was limp, lifeless, devoid of energy, drive and texture. The mid was uninspiring, flat tuneless and boring. The top end was decidedly rolled off. The timing was gone. :confused:

Perhaps it was me. Perhaps I had bought a dog of a CD player and had only just begun to realise it. I chopped and changed discs to no avail. I tried to kid myself that I was imagining things as all the objectivists think I do anyway. The more I tried to dismis what I was hearing the more a cold clammy sweat gathered on my forehead. Perhaps I was subject to a spell cast on me by the guys at Audio Works ;) or some nasty little pixies had crapped inside my CD player.

I then realised that this was not what I had become used to with this player and that this certainly was not the player/amp combination that had, in the last couple of weeks, got my non-audiophile concert-going wife hooked on listening to her favourite tunes fon the basis that the system was now 'involving' (her choice of words not mine).

Come to think of it, the CD player sounded exactly as the one in the shop. I went to work and plucked up the courage to ring Larry and tell him I was very unhappy. I asked him if they needed to burn in... He agreed to take them back and return my one pair of SQ28s without a fuss. The money I had given him was inside the box :)

Back at home the music is back. I managed to listen through most of the JJ CD before I felt that the time had come to sit in front of my PC (he's still on in the background) to type this post. I remember now why I bought this CD player in the first place. This whole episode remains a mystery to me because, make no mistake, the MIT AVT1s are bloody good. But not in my system.

I've learnt my lesson. It has cost me five hours of travelling and about £25 in diesel so I've got off fairly lightly. One bit of advice I'll give to anyone and everyone: always listen in your own system before you buy. Don't go on a recommendation from some idiot on a forum without doing this.

Synergy exists, of that I'm convinced and it isn't about tonal (im)balances meeting in the middle either. A mystery remains.

Mike
02-05-2008, 16:32
Don't let it frighten you. it's been that way ever since I was at Notre Dame. :)

:lolsign: Very good indeed! ;)

I should, of course, have written 'You're back'.....

Mike
02-05-2008, 16:34
Hang on a minute !!!

That IS what I wrote..... I didn't notice your edit!

Got me!

Steve Toy
02-05-2008, 16:42
I've just posted my salutary tale on page 20.

Mike
02-05-2008, 16:43
Synergy exists

Right!... that's you and Marco going in the pot so far! :mad:

Who's next?

jcbrum
02-05-2008, 16:56
So where is the defect Steve ? in the dodgy cables ? or in your equipment ?

Imagine trying to fight a war, or run a computerized expert system, with those kind of equipment problems ! :scratch:

Mike
02-05-2008, 17:03
Ha!.... The "agent provocateur" has returned! ;)

Where ya been JC?

jcbrum
02-05-2008, 17:14
Wukkin, as we say in Brum.

Not trying to be provactive, - just can't help it sometimes, sorry Steve.

It does seem that there is a defect though, from Steve's description. I would design equipment to be insensitive to cable swaps, and therefore can't understand why some designers ignore it.

On the other hand "experts" have told me that only some people can hear these phenomena.

Filterlab
02-05-2008, 17:43
Hang on a minute !!!

That IS what I wrote..... I didn't notice your edit!

Got me!

:lol: He got you good man.

Steve Toy
03-05-2008, 01:47
It does seem that there is a defect though, from Steve's description. I would design equipment to be insensitive to cable swaps, and therefore can't understand why some designers ignore it.

On the other hand "experts" have told me that only some people can hear these phenomena.

What I heard in the last couple of days wasn't exactly a subtle difference.... If you design kit not to be sensitive to cable swaps your kit isn't exactly high on the resolution stakes.

It's now 2:45 am. I've just listened to Stones in the Road by Mary Chapin Carpenter and it was bliss all the way through.

The mystery has not yet been solved.

jcbrum
03-05-2008, 06:52
What I heard in the last couple of days wasn't exactly a subtle difference..

That's why I think there may be a defect


. If you design kit not to be sensitive to cable swaps your kit isn't exactly high on the resolution stakes.

This is not the case at all, providing the cables are of a good electrical standard. You may take my word for it. :)


mystery has not yet been solved.

Will you continue to investigate ? this is interesting :)

Chris Frost
03-05-2008, 07:58
I'm of the opinion that cable is as much a component as the drivers, cabinets, amplifier etc in a powered speaker or any other piece of Hi-Fi.

If a piece of equipment can't allow the differences in other component changes to be heard then either there's no difference or the kit isn't up to the job. I'd say that that's as true for studio gear as it is for domestic Hi-Fi. :)

jcbrum
03-05-2008, 08:25
I'm of the opinion that cable is as much a component as the drivers, cabinets, amplifier etc in a powered speaker or any other piece of Hi-Fi.

If a piece of equipment can't allow the differences in other component changes to be heard then either there's no difference or the kit isn't up to the job. I'd say that that's as true for studio gear as it is for domestic Hi-Fi. :)

Personally, I regard the cables purely as a means to convey information from one apparatus to another without distortion or corruption in as perfect condition as possible.

If you want to alter the sound, then use a piece of equipment design to do it in a controlled fashion.

The cable is a component as much as any of the others, but its function is as I have described above, and not to degrade or alter the sound in any way.

Marco
03-05-2008, 08:57
Personally, I regard the cables purely as a means to convey information from one apparatus to another without distortion or corruption in as perfect condition as possible.


Indeed. But it's a hazardous journey and somewhat more difficult to achieve than you think! ;)

The better cables simply get nearer to achieving that goal than others.

Marco.

Chris Frost
03-05-2008, 13:29
Indeed. But it's a hazardous journey and somewhat more difficult to achieve than you think! ;)

The better cables simply get nearer to achieving that goal than others.

Marco.Bang on (and a point JC Brum seems to have missed).

Here's a semi-related example. I've just installed 3 plasmas, TV & satellite aerials and a distribution system in to a new house. I also put in some additional TV points. The building contractors had already installed some TV points and wired them back to the loft. They had used "cables are of a good electrical standard" - WF100 in this case. It's a cable well capable of handling the 800MHz frequency required for analogue & digital TV. Most decent aerial contractors would use something similar too.

The cable I use is much, much better - up to 4.5GHz and far lower loss. Some would say it's well over the top, but seeing the difference between the pictures on the same model plasma where the only difference is the cable...well the results speak for themselves.

Edit: I'm adding this line because I'm pretty sure that Brum would have come back with something like "It's better cable so gets closer to being transparent" - but that again misses the point. The WF100 was perfectly capable of doing the job, but my Liberty cable does it so much better. So cables do make a difference even when the specs say this is as high as you need to go.

Regards

Filterlab
03-05-2008, 14:07
Good post Chris.

jcbrum
03-05-2008, 19:29
I haven't missed the point Chris, you are not understanding the physics. compared with 800mhz, audio frequencies are practically dc. Your cables would make no difference at all to hifi stuff. Most cable sellers prey on the lack of education and insecurities of hifi enthusiasts.

I suspect your previous cable was damp, or below spec, They don't spec these things in a careless way. Or it might be that one of the units was down on gain.

jcbrum
03-05-2008, 19:34
Indeed. But it's a hazardous journey and somewhat more difficult to achieve than you think! ;)

The better cables simply get nearer to achieving that goal than others.

Marco.

Marco, Thanks for the rustic homilies, I am fully aware of the requirements for a satisfactory hifi cable and possibly were so informed before you were actually born. :)

I noticed you haven't yet progressed beyond "artistic" listening ;)

Marco
03-05-2008, 19:39
Nope - because that's all that is required to assemble a musically satisfying hi-fi system at home :)

What other type of 'special' listening do you suggest is necessary?

Marco.

jcbrum
03-05-2008, 19:49
Perhaps you might achieve a more informed result by a study of practical electronics ?

After all a very few "naive" painters have a following, but R.A. does help to enhance the "comment" in a picture. :)

Marco
03-05-2008, 19:59
Perhaps you might achieve a more informed result by a study of practical electronics ?


No thanks mate. My ears are plenty good enough for judging which cables to use in my own hi-fi system :ner:

Next!

Marco.

Chris Frost
03-05-2008, 20:13
I'm aware of the frequency differences. I'm also know that the 800MHz aerial cable makes crap audio interconnect because I tried it (and yes, I know it's sad, but I'd rather try something and be sure than guess how it might perform. :))

I also know that the Liberty stuff makes pretty reasonable audio interconnect in any system that it transparent enough to reveal the detail. That isn't a dig, it's just I wouldn't bother putting it in to a basic Hi-Fi; I have other cable for that. What this does show me is that cable quality does make a difference even in the relative low frequencies that audio signals exist.

I guess it's a point of view where we're just going to have to agree to differ. :)

Filterlab
03-05-2008, 20:17
I can't help thinking that there is an element of green eye going on here.

JC, face it, cables change sound. You may disagree, but then your speakers don't really have the resolve of high end hi-fi components so your disagreement is expected. Regardless of what science says, there are differences in cables and these differences are very audible, extremely audible in some cases.

And whilst you may disagree, I bet the rest of the members on here agree, and they have conclusive proof - not from an oscilloscope or some other piece of measurement bollocks, but from far more sensitive pieces of receiving equipment.

If you want to hear the difference, you only need to go visit anyone with a decent hi-fi and have a listen to basic patch cables versus hi-fi cables. Of course you will deny you can hear any change in sound, but you'll know in your heart of hearts you can.

jcbrum
03-05-2008, 20:21
Chris, I'm happy with that :) personally I'll go with Mike's silver plated copper, if I needed i/c's but I've specifically designed my system to avoid putting analogue signals down wires. It's better and much cheaper :)

jcbrum
03-05-2008, 20:23
Rob, before I reply, explain "green eye", I don't understand ? :)

Iain Sinclair
03-05-2008, 20:33
Rob, before I reply, explain "green eye", I don't understand ? :)

It's the effect you get from using green ink on your CDs. When you close your green eyes, your speakers disappear. It's a well-known phenomenon in hifi circles.

Marco
03-05-2008, 20:43
Haha... I think JC's got more trouble with his 'gladeye' than his green eye.

Marco.

jcbrum
03-05-2008, 21:20
I can't help thinking that there is an element of green eye going on here.

JC, face it, cables change sound. You may disagree, but then your speakers don't really have the resolve of high end hi-fi components so your disagreement is expected. Regardless of what science says, there are differences in cables and these differences are very audible, extremely audible in some cases.

And whilst you may disagree, I bet the rest of the members on here agree, and they have conclusive proof - not from an oscilloscope or some other piece of measurement bollocks, but from far more sensitive pieces of receiving equipment.

If you want to hear the difference, you only need to go visit anyone with a decent hi-fi and have a listen to basic patch cables versus hi-fi cables. Of course you will deny you can hear any change in sound, but you'll know in your heart of hearts you can.

Rob you are simply wrong about my speakers.

I know that those little black £4/freebie phono leads are inadequate.

When necessary, I use cables of correct specification. That means correct construction from correct materials.

I am very particular about connectors but I find many of the "Hi-end" ones are extremely bad.

An unbeatable cable can be purchased for £20 from expert specialist suppliers.

I agree with Marco that some cables can degrade or distort the signal, and be "less than a good cable" but IME those are the "high end" ones, and are therefore undesirable.

Is it ok with you if I like my speakers and don't require any interconnect cables. ? :)

Surely my opinion is at least as valid as yours ? :)

Haven't cable debates been done to death already ? :)

Marco
03-05-2008, 21:26
Rob you are simply wrong about my speakers.


Just like you are simply wrong about my valve amp (and system)! ;)

I have a sneaky feeling Rob's assertions, though, have more than a soupçon of accuracy.

Marco.

jcbrum
03-05-2008, 22:09
Science versus feelings, ooohh thats a hard choice, :)

Marco
03-05-2008, 22:26
What the f*ck has science got to do with an individual's subjective assessment of a pair of loudspeakers?

Marco.

jcbrum
03-05-2008, 22:34
What the f*ck has science got to do with an individual's subjective assessment of a pair of loudspeakers?

Marco.

Nothing at all. I'm glad you see my point :)

Marco
03-05-2008, 22:38
No I don't. Science is totally irrelevant in that scenario! All that matters is what Rob's ears tell him. It's his SUBJECTIVE opinion, after all, and one which I would respect because he knows a good sound when he hears one.

Marco.

Chris Frost
03-05-2008, 22:48
Science versus feelings, ooohh thats a hard choice, :)Brum, would you accept that there was a time when the science of the day couldn't fully explain the workings of an atom, or the movements of our solar system?

If science teaches us anything it's that we don't know all the answers; and even when we think we do then something might come along to change our perception forever. Maybe Hi-Fi is one of those areas where science only describes part of the process and there's still a long way to go before we really understand just how much we don't know. :)

Marco
03-05-2008, 22:50
Maybe Hi-Fi is one of those areas where science only describes part of the process and there's still a long way to go before we really understand just how much we don't know


ABSOLUTELY 100 F*CKING PERCENT RIGHT!!

:clap:

Marco.

Filterlab
04-05-2008, 10:36
No I don't. Science is totally irrelevant in that scenario! All that matters is what Rob's ears tell him. It's his SUBJECTIVE opinion, after all, and one which I would respect because he knows a good sound when he hears one.

Marco.

Quite right!

I can't believe JC doesn't understand the term 'green eye', but maybe his faculties are diminishing as quickly as his hearing. :lol:

Measurements cannot possibly tell anyone (apart from narrow minded fools) which speaker sounds better than another, only one's ears can. The same goes for cables / source components etc etc etc.

Filterlab
04-05-2008, 10:39
Brum, would you accept that there was a time when the science of the day couldn't fully explain the workings of an atom, or the movements of our solar system?

If science teaches us anything it's that we don't know all the answers; and even when we think we do then something might come along to change our perception forever. Maybe Hi-Fi is one of those areas where science only describes part of the process and there's still a long way to go before we really understand just how much we don't know. :)

Don't waste your typing Chris, JC only believes in science, not feelings or musical emotion.

Also he's (seemingly) heard everyone's system with every cable and every source component in every room playing every piece of music and has come to the conclusion that everyone except him is wrong about everything to do with hi-fi.

Given those elements, you have to wonder why he's even on here! :confused:

Marco
04-05-2008, 12:25
He's here to be a pest because he dislikes people with our mentality, but like all pests, such as flies, for example, they can easily be squashed ;)

Marco

Mike
04-05-2008, 22:17
Also he's (seemingly) heard everyone's system with every cable and every source component in every room playing every piece of music

It wouldn't surprise me if he HAS. Apparently he's been around long enough to have done just that!:lolsign:



...... Sorry, couldn't resist. Only joking like. :)

Chris Frost
05-05-2008, 07:21
Don't waste your typing Chris, JC only believes in science, not feelings or musical emotion.The great men and women of science know that Science's explanations for some things is inadequate, so they hypothesise new theories to test. An absolutist might say this is purely logical deduction; but surely if that were the case then science wouldn't need new theories and to revise its thinking, would it. :)

History shows us that more pragmatic approach involves a combination of logic and intuition. Isn't intuition a feeling? Oh my goodness! The absolutists are in trouble now..."Logic...circuits...overloading....Does not compute! Does not compute!! Bang!"

Throughout history it has been the small men of science (and religion) clinging to their absolutist dogma that have done more to hinder the progress of science. Thankfully those of us with the imagination to make a leap of faith are no longer condemned as heretics or burned at the stake. The odd flaming here doesn't really compare ;)

doodoos
05-05-2008, 17:03
I haven't read all this thread but love cable wars. My humble opinion is thus: in a transparent (no pun intended) system swapping cables makes a difference that I can hear. This includes mains, interconnects and loudspeaker runs.However, each cable sounds different depending on what it is connected to,although 'house sound' tends to be fairly consistent eg nordost range will be very different in presentation to cardas for example. They can be useful tuning devices too, when the laws of diminishing returns kicks in.

gary
15-07-2008, 21:46
I know well from experimenting with various cables that they do make a difference to the sound I don't know if there is a scientific reason for this why some cables are better than others but I plugged a set of Chord signature cables onto my system and was blown away by the difference they made

Gary

Mike
15-07-2008, 21:52
Hi Gary,

There are plenty of cable 'believers' here, as well as a healthy portion of sceptics.

Rather strangely though, and somewhat suspiciously, there are one or two who seem to be both! :scratch:

gary
15-07-2008, 23:21
Hi Mike
I have got to admit that for years I was skeptical about cables often pluging in different sets and questioning if I really heard a difference or not granted my system is a bit better now and capable of showing the difference I am no longer a skeptic the Chord cables absolutely trasformed my system and not in a small way either the difference was incredible and I nearly choked on the price before I had heard them but after I pluged them in there was no way they were coming back off again.

Marco
24-07-2008, 14:02
I know well from experimenting with various cables that they do make a difference to the sound I don't know if there is a scientific reason for this why some cables are better than others but I plugged a set of Chord signature cables onto my system and was blown away by the difference they made


Ah yes, but we're in the world of hi-fi, not science - where virtually everything is subjective. If hi-fi were a perfect science then we would judge all things objectively through scientific methodology, but as it isn't, we can't, and don't. We just use our ears; and what they tell us is all the 'evidence' we need.

I give you today's 'factoid' :)

Marco.

snapper
24-07-2008, 15:22
I give you today's 'factoid' :)

Marco.

Which is less painful than hemorrhoids.

:(

lurcher
24-07-2008, 15:28
Actually Marco, thats a tad unfair on Science. Elect Eng gives us a whole load of reason why and how cables can alter sound, and ways to measure this.

Where it breaks down is the current view on audio regarding the level where the differences are inaudible. Thats the problem, the definition of what make a audible change.

Again, the current view is that all the required measurements are made, but that again revolves around the definition of whats audible, so there is a element of catch 22 there.

Then the second catch 22 comes in, the tools normally used to detect differences are along the line of a double blind or ABX, and both (again IMHO) are predicated to provide negative results.

But IMHO none of the above is a failure of "Science" or the Scientific Method, just the current application.

Marco
24-07-2008, 15:51
That's fair comment, Nick.

My point is quite simply that as the processing of music signals via hi-fi equipment is not a perfect science (this is fact otherwise we would all be using the one 'perfect' hi-fi system) then it is a fallacy to assess such solely by scientific means.

It takes both objective measurement and subjective assessment through listening to attempt to ascertain how hi-fi equipment treats music signals, particularly how the brain interprets them. This is very different from how test equipment interprets electrical signals! And is why, as far as audio is concerned, measurements can never tell the whole story.

You don't come into this category because I know you adopt both principles when forming your opinions, but those who don't and merely use science as the ultimate arbiter with hi-fi are quite simply nothing but deluded.

Marco.

lurcher
24-07-2008, 16:32
Yep, but in this sort of statement


My point is quite simply that as the processing of music signals via hi-fi equipment is not a perfect science (this is fact otherwise we would all be using the one 'perfect' hi-fi system) then it is a fallacy to assess such solely by scientific means.

You are using the word science in two entirly different ways.

Science of its self is nothing other than the process we have to investigate the world we observe about ourself, and a method we can use to judge the comparitive validity of models we may form about the world we observe.

The phrase "perfect science" is in itself a contradiction, it may have existsted in the mind of the greeks, but between Godel and Quantum Mechanics any possibility of it ever existing is forever gone.

The point I am trying to crudely make is that some (and I don't suggest you are in this group) seem to prefer to assume that anything that is associated with science is in some way tainted, and someway less worthy that a purely "artistic" view of the world.


but those who don't and merely use science as the ultimate arbiter with hi-fi are quite simply nothing but deluded.

IMHO, anyone who does that misunderstands what science is and does, and just using the word science in the same way as a caveman would regard the moon, another word for magic beyond our understanding.

I guess I should shut up, Dawkins make the points a lot better :-).

Marco
24-07-2008, 16:41
No, no, I'm very much with you on this. I just think that hi-fi (the processing of music signals) is not the best model to support proof solely by science. It is almost entirely a subjective beast, and for good reason.

Medicine, on the other hand, is a much more science friendly entity, and thus a far better model to support objective-only analysis :)

Marco.

Mike
24-07-2008, 16:57
If it weren't for 'science', Hi-Fi systems would not exist! ;)

If you prefer to take an artistic view, think of science as 'the art of learning'. :eyebrows: