View Full Version : Confronting your own realities...
I've always wondered about how we as hi-fi enthusiasts or audiophiles (choose whichever you prefer) see ourselves. Ultimately, it should always be about music and good sound, and not the equipment for the equipment's sake. Trouble is, some people are more sincere about this than others and genuinely achieve that aim, whereas others might think they're sincere but are actually just kidding themselves on ;)
For example, I find *some*, and I stress SOME, so as not to upset everyone in that category, more obsessive D.I.Y-ers like that - they might think they're in it for the love of music, but often with their equipment they spend more time with the hood open fiddling and farting around, tweaking this and that, than sitting down listening to and enjoying the music it makes. I'd love to know the ratio of tweaking-to-music listening with some of these guys. However, if that's what 'does it' for them then fine; it's their money and their life, so good luck to them, but that definitely isn't for me.
It's one of the reasons why I've never embraced D.I.Y audio to any great degree. Yes it has many very valuable benefits, and I understand why people enjoy it, but quite simply aside from my unquestionable 'hamfistedness' with a soldering iron, the temptation for constantly fiddling is just too great, and thus also the potential for taking your eye off the ball as to what it's meant to be about is even greater: enjoying recorded music in the home to the highest standard of fidelity... It's a bit like the chap you see next door who spends the greatest proportion of his time underneath the bonnet of his car than in the driving seat... What are these guys really - simply car mechanics enthusiasts or genuine car driving enthusiasts? The same parallels can be drawn I feel with hi-fi and music amongst audiophiles and hi-fi D.I.Y-ers.
The other thing I would ask you to consider is this:
How genuinely confident (and I stress the word) are you about your beliefs in hi-fi? Are you a staunchly objectivist testing and measurements boffin or an equally staunch subjectivist who trusts his or her ears implicitly - and most importantly given the thread title, do you become uncomfortable and defensive when someone of the opposite mindset robustly challenges your (often) ingrained beliefs and prejudices, or are you genuinely open-minded and always receptive to new ideas and willing to embrace change?
And here's the clincher... Would you be willing to admit that you may have made some mistakes in arriving at your current beliefs and so realise that they perhaps need some updating or reassessing?
Let's expose and confront our own realities. How do you honestly see yourself in this regard? Hence the title, let's do some introspection of our genuine hi-fi and music loving motives - and be as honest as possible! :)
My belief is that in hi-fi some people are too stuck in their ways and also that others are kidding themselves on that music is more important than collecting or fiddling with the boxes. Discuss...
Marco.
Steve Toy
20-01-2009, 16:52
As well as those who spend more time under the bonnet than behind the wheel we have also the badge snobs who spend too much time with the chamois leather.
aquapiranha
20-01-2009, 17:18
I have a hifi because I like music. I built some speakers because I believe other music lovers were and still are being conned. I made my speakers for £300. There is a company who build and sell the *exact* same design, albeit with a nice veneer and some blingy binding posts for $5500...who is being foolish here? DIY is the thinkers / doers way about things. Any fool can spend money on a flash hifi, it takes devotion to build one though...
just my initial thoughts...
:confused:
Steve Toy
20-01-2009, 17:23
I think you are missing the point slightly here Steve. Marco was not slating DIYers. We are just raising the issue of folks in general who are into this hobby solely for the love of music (or not.)
Hi Marco,
For me I'd say 50/50 when things are not 'quite right' if you see what I mean. When I'm happy with everything I tend not to do any fiddling at all, until of course, something else comes along that I feel the need to try. :eyebrows:
It's two hobbies rolled into one, and the DIY side of things has undoubtedly saved me a small fortune. I'd happily put my phono stage or amp up against any commercial offerings costing three to five times (probably more) what they've cost me. This makes me happy! SPPV and all that. :)
Hi Steve,
I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here? :scratch:
As well as those who spend more time under the bonnet than behind the wheel we have also the badge snobs who spend too much time with the chamois leather.
Cheers...
Steve Toy
20-01-2009, 17:25
Mike,
I was trying not to mix my metaphors. Badge snobs... Think about it.
Think about it.
Steve,
I have... But don't see how it relates to this thread. So I asked! ;)
aquapiranha
20-01-2009, 17:36
I think you are missing the point slightly here Steve. Marco was not slating DIYers. We are just raising the issue of folks in general who are into this hobby solely for the love of music (or not.)
I know Marco is not trying to have a go at DIYers as he has heard the results of building things rather than buying them. Personally I have not built an amp (but I have modified one slightly) since it would probably cost as much to build one as I have spent already. Anyway, it is just a means to an end for me, whereas to others it may be more of a hobby, and for others it is simply a trinket or trophy.
Sand Dancin Donkey Walker
20-01-2009, 17:39
Hi Marco
As for 'Confronting your own realities... ' I would rather stay in La La land where I belong :lol:.
I genuinely enjoy listening to music, but my gear has evolved more along the lines that were dictated from either my disposable income at the time and the different types of gear I was exposed to along the way.
I may go through periods of being analytical but that is usually when I have decisions to make, I normally find I very soon get back to listening to music and forget about the electrical bit in between source and ears.
I also believe your mood very much dictates how you enjoy you music or the types you play at any one moment in time, or make decisions with regard to new or different purchases.
Does that make any sense at all?? Quite possible not but I tried. I may post some more later. Just off to do a night shift, for how much longer I don't know.
Andy - SDDW
Its hard to really be honest with ourselves sometimes
To be quite honest I think everyone on this board has some degree of audiophile traits myself included and yes Marco yourself as well. I think the issue is when it becomes obsessive and it takes away our enjoyment of music. I think most people hear demostrate a passion for music
For me I have a job that is quite stressful but can also be very rewarding going home and listening to music helps brings me back to me. Yet I think I have gone quite extreme in my hifi set up. But when I listen to music I do not think about my system (about two years ago I made that mistake for about 6 months and it something I never do again) I just enjoy the music. I have a very deep emotional connection to music and can experience this listening to my walkman, my system or even better still going to a good concert.
Ah!... I see Marco has edited his original post and made things a bit more complicated, several questions in there now!
Crafty bugger! ;)
aquapiranha
20-01-2009, 17:55
Having read Marco's edited post, I would say that I like the music first and the hifi second. I can understand however why he might think there are those who obsess about the equipment more than is needed, but for my part I believe that it is possible to obtain / build stuff at a fraction of the cost of boutique gear without sacrificing quality.
Excellent replies so far, guys. I'll put forward some more thoughts later, and yes, John you're right!
In the meantime, I'd like people to give some serious thought to the second part of my opening post, which so far seems to be getting avoided...
I'd really like you to self-examine yourselves in this respect (and no, that doesn't mean fiddling with your balls) :eyebrows:
How genuinely confident (and I stress the word) are you about your beliefs in hi-fi? Are you a staunchly objectivist testing and measurements boffin or an equally staunch subjectivist who trusts his or her ears implicitly - and most importantly given the thread title, do you become uncomfortable and defensive when someone of the opposite mindset robustly challenges your (often) ingrained beliefs and prejudices, or are you genuinely open-minded and always receptive to new ideas and willing to embrace change?
And here's the clincher... Would you be willing to admit that you may have made some mistakes in arriving at your current beliefs and so realise that they perhaps need some updating or reassessing?
Give it a go! :)
Marco.
In the meantime, I'd like people to give some serious thought to the second part of my opening post, which so far seems to be getting avoided ;)
Err... because it wasn't there originally! :ner:
aquapiranha
20-01-2009, 18:02
"And here's the clincher... Would you be willing to admit that you may have made some mistakes in arriving at your current beliefs and so realise that they perhaps need some updating or reassessing?
Yes! I used to think that the higher the cost of an item the better it would sound and therefore the more you would enjoy music! -
Utter, utter tosh!!! I have heard some quite expensive gear that sounds dire, and some "budget" gear that sound fantastic. Of course, there is some pricey kit that sounds good, but if you can get the same for the fraction of the price then it seems to me all that is left is willy waving ( though as in the case of flash cars, such behaviour would in fact suggest you don't have a willy worth waving...)
:eyebrows:
Err... because it wasn't there originally! :ner:
LOL. That's why it pays to refresh the page now and then and see if anything new has been added ;)
Btw, I'm surprised you didn't get Steve's earlier analogy. Normally you're quite a sharp cookie! :)
Marco.
Btw, I'm surprised you didn't get Steve's earlier analogy. Normally you're quite a sharp cookie! :)
I read it from DIY perspective coz that's my predilection and 'Badge Snobbery' is a foreign concept to me... Coz I'm relatively poor! :ner:
LOL. That's why it pays to refresh the page now and then and see if anything new has been added ;)
And 'derrr'... I do, that's how I know you changed it numpty! :lol:
Yes! I used to think that the higher the cost of an item the better it would sound and therefore the more you would enjoy music! -
Hi Steve,
I get what you're saying and agree, but you've missed the point slightly. Allow me to explain better. This:
I used to think that the higher the cost of an item the better it would sound and therefore the more you would enjoy music!
is not your CURRENT belief. This is:
have heard some quite expensive gear that sounds dire, and some "budget" gear that sound fantastic. Of course, there is some pricey kit that sounds good, but if you can get the same for the fraction of the price then it seems to me all that is left is willy waving ( though as in the case of flash cars, such behaviour would in fact suggest you don't have a willy worth waving...)
The question I asked was aimed at those who consider that their current beliefs may need updating or reassessing. You're quite happy with yours.
Do you appreciate the distinction? :)
Basically, who's honest enough to confess that deep down they think that their current way of thinking is perhaps wrong, or more accurately not entirely right, but are too proud or stubborn to admit it! Yes, the Marco-boy loves tackling the thorny issues most people would happily sweep under the carpet :lol:
But that's what this forum is partly about: trying to make people stop and think and re-examine their beliefs!
Marco.
Dave Cawley
20-01-2009, 18:21
Guys
Does any of this really mater at all? Only if you are insecure, and then a therapist would be more use that an internet forum or Hi Fi Dealer?
I know people with bling systems who are, like, so happy, and why not? Leave them alone in their happiness. Rain and parade comes to mind.
Then there are DIY'ers, they are happy to, leave them to it?
Then the people here on this list, mostly happy and most listen to music.
There are unhappy people, who believe everything they read and hear, but I suspect they are not really into music at all. But hey, leave them alone too!
For those that do need help, then this list and a shed load of experts are here to help! (and thanks to Marco)
Before I was a dealer, my system stayed static for over 5 years at a time, only progress and a greater earning power made me change.
Cats and pigeons?
Dave
aquapiranha
20-01-2009, 18:21
Oh right.
So, did I pass?
;-)
My belief is that in hi-fi some people are too stuck in their ways and also that others are kidding themselves on that music is more important than collecting or fiddling with the boxes. Discuss...
Marco I concur with that view, some are indeed so insular and single minded they forget that it's the music that matters not the gear that's used.
As a saxophonist I see or more to the point hear it all too frequently, folks who are passionate to the point of being obsessive Teutonic robots about their expensive pieces of tat, that beats all else.
But talk to them about their music and what it means to them, you get a look that makes you check that your flies aren't undone.
Don't get me wrong I've bought stuff on the basis it looks or sounds good in someone else's system or even been recommended in one of the comics, but know I've wised up a bit more.
If I hear music from a system that gives me goosebumps then there is something worth investigating, be it the music, the person the kit belongs to, or the kit itself, preferably all three.
I tend to trust my ears more but lets say I want to buy a new set of speakers It would have to go down to at least 30hz and have good treble extension but then it will come down to what I hear, and if it will work in my system
We all have beliefs but I like to believe I am open to change but often its experiences that will bring about the most changes; as my strongest learning styles are listening and experiential, my weakest is visual !!
pentode10
20-01-2009, 18:39
For me I think the subject is two fold.
Firstly it has to be about becoming closer to the music and the more a system can potray the emotional aspects of that music the better.
Otherwise we may just as well just listen to a tranny radio and spend the money on curtains..
That said for me, there is a great thrill and satifaction in achieving the above by your own hand.Even if it may only be in a limited way dependant on ones ability.
The restoration of vintage gear very much falls into this catagory and it never ceases to amaze me how good some of this kit can be.
One other advantage is it can make matching gear easier by adding some mods etc..
This dosen't mean I'm just into vintage gear as I use contempory kit as well.
Cheers
Andy.
Guys
Does any of this really mater at all? Only if you are insecure, and then a therapist would be more use that an internet forum or Hi Fi Dealer?
I know people with bling systems who are, like, so happy, and why not? Leave them alone in their happiness. Rain and parade comes to mind.
Then there are DIY'ers, they are happy to, leave them to it?
Then the people here on this list, mostly happy and most listen to music.
There are unhappy people, who believe everything they read and hear, but I suspect they are not really into music at all. But hey, leave them alone too!
Hi Dave,
That's all very well, but the purpose of this thread is precisely *NOT* to leave people alone! Some people are insecure and need exposing :lol:
I would like people to examine their beliefs, deep down, with hi-fi or whatever, and ask themselves if they consider their beliefs and current thinking are perhaps 'wrong', or more accurately not entirely right, but are too stubborn or proud to admit it. I think some people in hi-fi are too stuck in their ways and are victims of their ingrained prejudices just as much as some are victims of psychological bias and badge snobbery, maybe without even realising it, particularly those who judge hi-fi mostly on science, testing and measurements, such as Tim F (from the States) I had a lengthy debate with recently.
If we just left people alone there would be no purpose for the thread! ;)
The critical question is: how positively or otherwise do you react when your deeply-held beliefs are challenged, particularly by someone of the opposite mindset where you feel that they may have exposed a 'loophole' in your hi-fi assessment methodology? I'm not directing this soley at you, incidentally.
I want people to stop and think...
Marco.
Steve Toy
20-01-2009, 18:51
Well, folks are free to contribute to this thread and 'fess up where appropriate or be left alone. :D
Indeed, I'm trying to expose and tackle the former and would hope that our members are well-adjusted and confident enough people to handle it. The response has been excellent so far, but let's get right down to the nitty gritty...
There have been some excellent views on this so far, which I'll get to later. This is a good example from Dave:
Before I was a dealer, my system stayed static for over 5 years at a time, only progress and a greater earning power made me change.
Cats and pigeons?
What about your own deeply-held beliefs, though, Dave? How comfortable are you when people challenge them, particularly when you think the challenger has got a point and has exposed some flaws or 'loopholes'? Would you admit it and then reassess your beliefs accordingly or remain stubbornly defensive of them? :)
I think that there are more than a few of the latter populating other forums and in real life!
*THAT* is the key question I'm trying to get to the bottom of with regard to everyone...
Marco.
How genuinely confident (and I stress the word) are you about your beliefs in hi-fi? Are you a staunchly objectivist testing and measurements boffin or an equally staunch subjectivist who trusts his or her ears implicitly - and most importantly given the thread title, do you become uncomfortable and defensive when someone of the opposite mindset robustly challenges your (often) ingrained beliefs and prejudices, or are you genuinely open-minded and always receptive to new ideas and willing to embrace change?
And here's the clincher... Would you be willing to admit that you may have made some mistakes in arriving at your current beliefs and so realise that they perhaps need some updating or reassessing?
C'mon then... Lets all hear Marco & Steve's possition with this please?
You two are not teachers setting homework you know! :eyebrows:
Steve Toy
20-01-2009, 19:17
In this thread we are merely facilitators ;)
All in good time, Mikey. We're simply testing the mindset of our membership (and lurkers :eyebrows:). I think people who know me well will have a good idea of my position on this anyway ;)
Marco.
Cop out!
And Marco, stop modifying your posts you sly git!... we don't want any moving goalposts now do we? ;)
Mikey,
LOL. You know me quite well, so I should have thought it was obvious where I stood on this matter, and you haven't yet 'fessed up' yourself! ;)
Just to make it crystal clear then:
I'm extremely confident in my hi-fi beliefs and consider the current ones I hold as being 'correct' at this present moment in time, simply because I trust my ears implicitly and the subjective beliefs I have then formed by using them.
This is due to me never making snap judgements about anything in with hi-fi and always taking the necessary time to assess things properly using my own trusted judgement criteria which has been tried and tested over many years.
*However*, if someone successfully demonstrated to me that I was wrong, or not entirely correct, then I would reassess my beliefs accordingly because I'm open-minded and receptive to new ideas and change. As far as I'm concerned that's the way everyone should view things because to be otherwise is simply to be cocooned in the false comfort zone of "la-la-land", as someone said earlier, and in my opinion that isn't a healthy place to be, unless you're on some 'special substances' :eyebrows:
I should have thought though from the tone of the opening post in this thread, and the very fact I started it in the first place, that my views were obvious and that I was trying to get those who may think the opposite from me to come out of the woodwork...
My goal is to make people stop and think and perhaps make some changes to their hi-fi beliefs if necessary.
Ok, smarty pants, where do you stand in all of this? :ner:
Marco.
anthonyTD
20-01-2009, 19:52
All in good time, Mikey. We're simply testing the mindset of our membership (and lurkers :eyebrows:).
I think people who know me well will have a good idea of my position on this anyway ;)
Marco.
err,,is it doggy ???
:lolsign:
HAHAHA... Come on, let's have a serious answer from you, oh valve guru! ;)
Marco.
Primalsea
20-01-2009, 20:03
Marco,
If music is the important thing and Hifi is the means to the end then why did you start what is primary a Hifi forum?
anthonyTD
20-01-2009, 20:13
HAHAHA... Come on, let's have a serious answer from you, oh valve guru! ;)
Marco.
but seriously,
i would like to think that i am open minded enough to take on board other peoples criticisms,[ i hope people who know me will vouch for this] and would be willing to change something if i thought they had a valid point, and i have done so on more than one occasion, but i would only be prepared to do this if i already had my own doubts, or as a request from someone whom i trusted in their ability to evaluate things on a similar level as myself.
hope this makes sense.
anthony,TD...
you haven't yet 'fessed up' yourself! ;)
I don't really know what I need to 'fess' TBH! :scratch:
I've explained my listening V's fiddling ratio but don't really have any 'beliefs' as such, other than DIY is the least costly way to do it. But for me thats more of a fact than a belief! :)
Dunno what else to say. :confused:
I'm extremely confident in my hi-fi beliefs and consider the current ones I hold as being 'correct' at this present moment in time, simply because I trust my ears implicitly and the subjective beliefs I have then formed by using them.
I don't particularly care whether my beliefs are prejudiced or "correct" - how can there be "correct" beliefs anyway, actually beliefs are bound to be prejudiced to some extent at least. What matters most is that people have fun in what they are doing, both with kit (whether diy or not) and music. We could next comment on people's musical interests.
Some people are very competitive they have to have "the best" or have the "the best" philosophy. I'm old enough not to care what others think, I just want to enjoy the both the kit and music that I have, it's totally selfish. Others will constantly need to have "bake-offs" and "shoot-outs" but that's not for me.
What matters most is that people have fun in what they are doing,
Nice! :)
Oh hang on...
I DO have a belief!. :)
It's all about ENJOYMENT!... And I don't care if that means someone dancing about naked and rubbing their 'bits' all over a darTZeel power nose while listening to The Birdy Song or Agadoo!!!
As long as I don't have to watch! :D
Marco,
If music is the important thing and Hifi is the means to the end then why did you start what is primary a Hifi forum?
Hi Paul,
Good point. The problem is that hi-fi forums which are started up under the premise that they are predominantly music forums with a bit of hi-fi thrown in for good measure, and then who try to set their stall out that way (when in actual fact they're quite the opposite) we feel are generally unsuccessful.
That's why we've always stated that AOS is predominantly a hi-fi forum, with music and other discussions added - but for people who see hi-fi as a means to and end, and that end is to enjoy greater fidelity from their chosen music.
We started AOS to provide what we thought was something a bit different and to use it as a vehicle to help people discuss and achieve the above. It's the 1st year anniversary of the forum tomorrow and we think we've achieved quite a lot in that time :)
What do you think?
Marco.
I don't particularly care whether my beliefs are prejudiced or "correct" - how can there be "correct" beliefs anyway, actually beliefs are bound to be prejudiced to some extent at least. What matters most is that people have fun in what they are doing, both with kit (whether diy or not) and music. We could next comment on people's musical interests.
Some people are very competitive they have to have "the best" or have the "the best" philosophy. I'm old enough not to care what others think, I just want to enjoy the both the kit and music that I have, it's totally selfish. Others will constantly need to have "bake-offs" and "shoot-outs" but that's not for me.
Clive,
I completely agree. I'm just trying to get people to think a little bit more about what they're doing with hi-fi, and whether or not they feel that their current system building methodology, or whatever, perhaps needs some reassessing. If you're having fun, that's great - so am I, but I suspect there are others who are just kidding themselves on because they're not willing to tackle inconsistencies in their belief system and deal with it accordingly.
Sometimes when this sort of thing is highlighted it makes people reassess their current position with hi-fi to their overall benefit, and in turn allowing them to have even more fun...
Sorry if I'm thinking about things rather too deeply, but that's just me! :)
Marco.
Marco,
I am 100% confident about my chosen musical path.
It is not a dad's radiogram special that so many are 'absorbed in' that effects the UK so much.
Real musical reproduction is not for the faint hearted, it is far and away beyond the 'safe' UK approved style of sound that is generally given as read.
Neither is it the naim or linn paths to true box enlightenment, it lies on road to some distant shore that populated by 'true source' reproduction, no fuzzy lumpkins or thin emaciated, texture bereft evangelical thrown at you spatially unaware bland breed of eastern European hifi.
Nor is the US heavy hitting iron of soperific one note entrenchment and those audio Jackhammer behmoths that litter highways and byways of pure music.
I have gleened ear to six figure SET's that would make this board cry, yet as good as they proclaim, the magic does not exsist across whole spectrum of audio reproduction.
Close yet, the tropical fruit is still elusive!
It just imbibes pure unadulterated music, no more no less.
True contentment is not a cigar called Hamlet, but a musical reproduction system that imparts music not in the room (so 90's man) firmly and utterly insconced inside your mind (without the use of artifical stimulents or substances.
Take the flight that carries you to music central station, only stopping on route to take in the spectacular musical journeys that await your cerebral delights throughout the eons of musical exploration.
Music lovers have a state of mind, a place they go to un-harness by the shackles of everyday life, a place where time and space become one and the same, they transcend the tedium of humanity and rise into the great gig in the sky.
They also do it with dignity, insightfulness and without recourse to the public domain.
A Mr. C in mellow philosophical mood.
Marco,
That's ok, I understand what you're doing. I suppose where I'm coming from is that I've asked myself those sorts of questions and now I have an equilibrium I'm content with.
anthonyTD
20-01-2009, 21:07
Marco,
I am 100% confident about my chosen musical path.
It is not a dad's radiogram special that so many are 'absorbed in' that effects the UK so much.
Real musical reproduction is not for the faint hearted, it is far and away beyond the 'safe' UK approved style of sound that is generally given as read.
Neither is it the naim or linn paths to true box enlightenment, it lies on road to some distant shore that populated by 'true source' reproduction, no fuzzy lumpkins or thin emaciated, texture bereft evangelical thrown at you spatially unaware bland breed of eastern European hifi.
Nor is the US heavy hitting iron of soperific one note entrenchment and those audio Jackhammer behmoths that litter highways and byways of pure music.
I have gleened ear to six figure SET's that would make this board cry, yet as good as they proclaim, the magic does not exsist across whole spectrum of audio reproduction.
Close yet, the tropical fruit is still elusive!
It just imbibes pure unadulterated music, no more no less.
True contentment is not a cigar called Hamlet, but a musical reproduction system that imparts music not in the room (so 90's man) firmly and utterly insconced inside your mind (without the use of artifical stimulents or substances.
Take the flight that carries you to music central station, only stopping on route to take in the spectacular musical journeys that await your cerebral delights throughout the eons of musical exploration.
Music lovers have a state of mind, a place they go to un-harness by the shackles of everyday life, a place where time and space become one and the same, they transcend the tedium of humanity and rise into the great gig in the sky.
They also do it with dignity, insightfulness and without recourse to the public domain.
A Mr. C in mellow philosophical mood.
yes, what he said!:eyebrows:
nice one mr C.;) :)
anthony...
LOL, Tony! And I thought that I was being a tad too deep... Great post. I love little 'personal insights' like that :)
I laughed at loud reading this though:
It is not a dad's radiogram special that so many are 'absorbed in' that effects the UK so much.
"Dad's radiogram" F*cking love it! :lol:
Trouble is, if only some "dad's radiograms" didn't sound so much better than half of the 'plastic-fantastic' pretenders made today ;)
I do get your point though and think you're right, and I knew that Anthony (another valve aficionado like me) would agree...
It's because we're so confident that our choices are right that we've got no worries or insecurities ;)
Marco.
Beechwoods
20-01-2009, 21:11
Worried and insecure? Never!
OK... Well my interest in hi-fi has come about through the convergence of a bunch of different things that led me to the same place. Firstly I've been seriously into music fom when I was around 14, listening to John Peel, alternative Radio 1 concert broadcasts, late night music telly, and recording what I liked almost religiously.
When I was 16 I started collecting and swapping live recordings and put together a basic system that allowed me to more seriously copy and playback stuff with the least degradation of signal... My current speakers are the same home-made ones I was using when I was 16. My amp back then was also home-made. My dad was big into Hi-Fi and making his own stuff and for a 16 year old with a weekend job there was far more SPPV in making than trying to buy something that sounded as good as we could make :) I was 17 when I bought my first CD player, for £40 off a friend, and that's player I'm still using. That would have been back in 1989 or so. The amp has been retired, but only replaced once, with the one I currently use, which I purchased about 10 years ago.
I upgraded to DAT ten or so years later when I could afford a machine, to avoid the scourge of gen-loss, and later still started collecting the machines so I could play back original old reel and other analogue formats.
I was given my first reel to reel player (my TC-377) by a friends' dad. I used it to archive some of his old home recording to CD. That machine gave me a taste of what reel to reel was capable of so I did my research and fell in love with the RT-707. Then I ran out of room and focussed on more portable machines :lol:
There is something very tactile about old tape equipment, and especially reel to reel. I have a fascination for obsolete formats. I think there is a big bit of me that wants to archive stuff. That's a big part of it. I love how the machines are built and engineered. I love the fact that they're quite unusual now. I think that I feel about my reel to reels how a lot of vinyl fans feel about their turntables. There is some kind of 'added value' from the fact that it's not some 'black box' making sound, but a whirring machine that harks back to the same age that a lot of the music itself was recorded.
Some of the stuff I play on my machines isn't well recorded, and might even be degraded by the passage of time (old reels, like old records) but I know that my players are getting about the best that any player is going to get off them. I have heard quite a few reel to reel machines, Revox B77, Phillips, Teac, Grundigs, Akai's and funnily enough in the real world my RT-707 sounds better than all of the others I've heard... I guess I've been lucky, but the most important thing is I'm happy :)
So I love music, and I love old vintage equipment. And sometimes I buy equipment just to play old music :lol:
On the matter of DIY I like the challenge of doing something that gives a good sound for not very much money. I enjoy making stuff eventhough I have very little electronics knowledge. I think when I come to replace my amp, which I will at some point, I'll replace it with one I build myself, most likely a kit-type thing. I am convinced that if you feel confident with a soldering iron and can follow instructions that DIY is the single best way to maximise the investment you make in your system. And the satisfaction of having done it yourself is immense.
I don't feel like I have any pre-conceived notions, other than being a subjectivist. I don't care for the numbers, only how it sounds. I don't have golden ears and so don't feel the need to tweak. I have never heard cables making any difference. I wonder sometimes if I have a poor 'audio memory' - it surprises me when people on the forum say they discern differences over long periods - my abilities are more limited to quick-time A/B comparisons ;) Having a young family I find that I can never listen to my equipment at levels that would allow me to discern very much in terms of subtleties anyway so I don't worry too much. Because I don't have many friends with a serious interest in hi-fi I don't have the experience of other systems against which to measure my own. I know that front end of my system isn't particularly special.
Perhaps I'm a happy fool!
I look forward to hearing some of your systems at forum gatherings to shake me out of my complacency :)
So anyway, I think I'm a hi-fi enthusiast rather than an audiophile :)
To use the cliché, me system is a means to an end. I love music and love having a system to play it back on that does it justice. I like being able to play with old kit and have the music to play back on whatever format I like. So I collect my favourite albums on vinyl, reel - if they were released - and CD... I know I've spent thousands more on music than any of the equipment I have play 'em on...
Beechwoods
20-01-2009, 21:16
Take the flight that carries you to music central station, only stopping on route to take in the spectacular musical journeys that await your cerebral delights throughout the eons of musical exploration.
Music lovers have a state of mind, a place they go to un-harness by the shackles of everyday life, a place where time and space become one and the same, they transcend the tedium of humanity and rise into the great gig in the sky.
They also do it with dignity, insightfulness and without recourse to the public domain.
I love that. Almost worthy of Betjeman. One to keep I think :)
Spectral Morn
21-01-2009, 00:43
Yes...Re-examination. I have been doing that this week, and so far, very interesting it has been too. I am working on a review(over view)for AOS. I hope to post the review at the end of the week. Its to do with digital... and should be of interest to all. However I do hope to keep the angry villagers at bay, so no burning torches and pitchforks...we shall see.
I will have a wee think about this thread and post any thoughts when I have some worth sharing... very interesting so far.
Regards D S D L---Neil :)
chris@panteg
21-01-2009, 01:02
Marco
i will freely admit to making many mistakes with hifi, although i made an even bigger mistake when i sold off some of my vinyl.
Around 20 years ago i had a very narrow minded approach to music and Hifi ,thinking my linn was the best deck in the world and listening to quite a bit of crap music.
But i started to become more adventurous with my system and different types of music
and confidence grew' i was easily led before.
I built up a fairly high end system' but as you know i sold almost all of it except the snells.
So i now have a simpler system almost back to where i started' but do you know what i am quite happy with it , i think i will keep it this way for quite a while.
The one thing i have really learned over the years and is important to me now is the music and to have as much of it as possible and any format if not on vinyl then mp3, cd,
flac wav.,
I have never been a DIYer with hifi, but i am no longer a badge snob , but i must stress
i never looked down on the techy' i had sneaking desire to try it even in my Linn days.
I've always wondered about how we as hi-fi enthusiasts or audiophiles (choose whichever you prefer) see ourselves. Ultimately, it should always be about music and good sound, and not the equipment for the equipment's sake. Trouble is, some people are more sincere about this than others and genuinely achieve that aim, whereas others might think they're sincere but are actually just kidding themselves on ;)
For example, I find *some*, and I stress SOME, so as not to upset everyone in that category, more obsessive D.I.Y-ers like that - they might think they're in it for the love of music, but often with their equipment they spend more time with the hood open fiddling and farting around, tweaking this and that, than sitting down listening to and enjoying the music it makes. I'd love to know the ratio of tweaking-to-music listening with some of these guys. However, if that's what 'does it' for them then fine; it's their money and their life, so good luck to them, but that definitely isn't for me.
It's one of the reasons why I've never embraced D.I.Y audio to any great degree. Yes it has many very valuable benefits, and I understand why people enjoy it, but quite simply aside from my unquestionable 'hamfistedness' with a soldering iron, the temptation for constantly fiddling is just too great, and thus also the potential for taking your eye off the ball as to what it's meant to be about is even greater: enjoying recorded music in the home to the highest standard of fidelity... It's a bit like the chap you see next door who spends the greatest proportion of his time underneath the bonnet of his car than in the driving seat... What are these guys really - simply car mechanics enthusiasts or genuine car driving enthusiasts? The same parallels can be drawn I feel with hi-fi and music amongst audiophiles and hi-fi D.I.Y-ers.
The other thing I would ask you to consider is this:
How genuinely confident (and I stress the word) are you about your beliefs in hi-fi? Are you a staunchly objectivist testing and measurements boffin or an equally staunch subjectivist who trusts his or her ears implicitly - and most importantly given the thread title, do you become uncomfortable and defensive when someone of the opposite mindset robustly challenges your (often) ingrained beliefs and prejudices, or are you genuinely open-minded and always receptive to new ideas and willing to embrace change?
And here's the clincher... Would you be willing to admit that you may have made some mistakes in arriving at your current beliefs and so realise that they perhaps need some updating or reassessing?
Let's expose and confront our own realities. How do you honestly see yourself in this regard? Hence the title, let's do some introspection of our genuine hi-fi and music loving motives - and be as honest as possible! :)
My belief is that in hi-fi some people are too stuck in their ways and also that others are kidding themselves on that music is more important than collecting or fiddling with the boxes. Discuss...
Marco.
Marco
I'd have thought that a DIY'er is someone who is continually confronting their own realities re audio, both from a cost and sound reproduction perspective.
If something doesn't sound right then don't we all experiment be it cable swapping, tube rolling or wholesale system swapping.
Some do however try to reach other peoples idea of audio nirvana rather than their own, hence the never ending tweaking, maybe that's due to insecurity or inquisitiveness.
I guess to confront your own reality re audio, you have to be a realistic individual not just in relation to hi-fi, as my disposable income has somewhat disappeared my other half's brutal reassessment of my hi-fi aspirations, made me realise that whether I like it or not, less will have to be more.
StanleyB
21-01-2009, 07:33
I guess to confront your own reality re audio, you have to be a realistic individual not just in relation to hi-fi, as my disposable income has somewhat disappeared my other half's brutal reassessment of my hi-fi aspirations, made me realise that whether I like it or not, less will have to be more.
My guiding principle.
I build stuff to use. Sometimes it last a few months, sometimes a couple of years. Depending on how successful the end result.
I often tweak in between.
I spend more time listening than tweaking.
Sometimes when in tweaking mood, i'm guilty of playing the same few CDs over and over, because i know them well and it helps me to get things as i want them. Consequently i don't get get to buy a lot of new material.
Given more time and money, i would probably spend more time building stuff.
I love music, i think. But the real fascination comes from completing a project and getting it working. As a relative newbie to DIY electronics
, i don't think the novelty has worn off yet.
The learning and satisfaction involved overides any other factor, at the moment.
I've been building speakers for over thirty years and often keep them for a long time, if they turn out to be good. With the occasional tweak of course.
So for me it's all down to circumstances, time, money and being in the mood for doing something.
I've forgotten what the question was now.:)
Oh yes, mistakes?
Yeah i made loads.
Marco,
I have to confess that the 'Dad's radiogram special' (copyright P.Jeffery@2006) is not of my own making, it belongs to a kindred spirit who's sheer insight-fullness into life, far exceeds my own by a large margin!
Though I will shed a little light on the true definition of such an apt phrase for the UK.
The Concise Oxford English dictionary extraction for:-
Dad's radiogram special
A description of sound style relating to majority UK sonic tastes spanning the last 40 years of musical reproduction.
See:- 'Safe', 'Boring', 'Un-involving', 'Uninspiring' (at best!), 'Warm' (overly so), 'Rolled off', 'over blown wobbly bass with piss poor extension and zero note intimation of any description' (note very little bass below 50hz), 'Cloying' (in various degrees), serious loss of detail retrieval, exaggerated and false sound staging, the ability to induce coma like status within 20 minutes of switch on, 'Masterfully' hoodwinking the listening into believing it is producing a 'realistic sound'
Note:- The above is not just the sole reverse of some thermionic amplification, solid state is more than capable of producing such truly uninspiring sonic delights that will stir the soul to terminal non positive reality implosion due to negative musical stimulation high on the 'Blunt' Scale
Note ii :-
All 'Dad's radiogram special' sound is measured in Blunts .
It was named after an infamous self styled 'musician' who in the late 2000's musical (loose term when applied to aforementioned) output managed to conjure up such 'resentment, hatred, anger and terminal despondency at the merest utterance of his name.
Note iii :-
The Blunt Factor (ISO9003 institute of metric studies and standards Paris 2003)
Radio edit version ;-)
Blunt factor 1 = Mild sedation, limited involvement, passable self esteem needing minor reassurance from time to time. Though in a redeemable position
Blunt Factor 5 = Bordering on 'no road back' drifting in and out of consciousness during listening sessions, low self esteem, constant need for self affirmation and visits to friends and Hifi shops to help self justification of their musical path.
Blunt Factor 10 - Uber extreme case, absolutely no redemption or escape, soul is condemned and lost to wander the annals of time and space without method of returning to reality and musical satisfaction. (Halcrow owners you know the gravity of the situation)
An example that was cited to me:-
A Primare front end, Sugden amplification, Proac speakers this would have a Blunt factor of 1-3 depending on room and musical tastes.
Subject only mildly effected, a short dose of medication over a 3 month period could reclaim this person's soul.
I hope this has helped you glean an insight into the Dad's radiogram special
All of the above is purely fictitious and has no bearing on any real person (s) living, known or dead.
:lolsign: I might put that as a sticky somewhere!
Meanwhile, putting one's 'serious head' on again for a moment... I would like people to think about this question in particular and offer their views:
How comfortable are you when people challenge your audio beliefs or system building methodologies, particularly when you think the challenger has a valid point and has exposed some flaws or 'loopholes' in them? Would you humbly admit it and then reassess your beliefs accordingly or remain stubbornly defensive of them regardless?
Have a go at it.
Cheers :)
Marco.
StanleyB
21-01-2009, 10:00
How comfortable are you when people challenge your audio beliefs or system building methodologies, particularly when you think the challenger has a valid point and has exposed some flaws or 'loopholes' in them? Would you humbly admit it and then reassess your beliefs accordingly or remain stubbornly defensive of them regardless?
Sometime it is better to keep quiet, and just let people listen to your system in order to make their mind up for themsleves. I am not worried if X is better than A. I am worried if X sounds better in my set up than A does. How A sounds in someone else's set up is not for me to argue with them, unless I have the same set up situated in the same environment.
To give an example: My NS1000M is flat against the wall, 40cm from the floor, and only 1.5m apart. Sounds like lunacy, but once you hear them in that position it all makes sense. I know people who have them a 1ft or more from the wall and several meters apart, just to get a similar result.
STan
I feel the DIY aspect that's been mentioned is just one example. Should we really be addressing overall hi-fi obsessive behaviour? I believe this is more about OCD. I've been there with constant capacitor swapping, trying loads of plinth options for my deck, many arm mounting methods. Is this R&D or OCD?
I happen to enjoy building valve-based electronics and enjoy understanding what aspects of design most strongly influences performance. The OCD side of my DIY exploits has now firmly taken a back seat for 2 mains reasons:
1) I answered many of the questions I had
2) I decided to get more of a life (not true rally, work took over....)
OCD does not however apply just to DIY. Hoping and trying not to offend........how about someone who is admirably focused on getting a 1210 to perform an audiophile (or whatever term you prefer) job with mods to power supply, feet, arm, spindle etc and then placing the deck on an amazing number of Mana-style stands? This may not be DIY but viewed by people who just pop a CD on or listen to iPods such behaviour will be seen as OCD. They might say, "for heavens sake, just something that works in the first place!".
Also, how do we differentiate between our having OCD or simply being Nerdy?
Lights blue touchpaper and retires........
:lolsign: I might put that as a sticky somewhere!
Meanwhile, putting one's 'serious head' on again for a moment... I would like people to think about this question in particular and offer their views:
How comfortable are you when people challenge your audio beliefs or system building methodologies, particularly when you think the challenger has a valid point and has exposed some flaws or 'loopholes' in them? Would you humbly admit it and then reassess your beliefs accordingly or remain stubbornly defensive of them regardless?
Have a go at it.
Cheers :)
Marco.
As everything has flaws my answer is I would be exceedingly comfortable with any advice, however whether you can act on that advice is another matter.
Hi Clive,
I feel the DIY aspect that's been mentioned is just one example. Should we really be addressing overall hi-fi obsessive behaviour? I believe this is more about OCD. I've been there with constant capacitor swapping, trying loads of plinth options for my deck, many arm mounting methods. Is this R&D or OCD?
With you (having met you and saw your set-up) I'd say it was definitely the former.
I happen to enjoy building valve-based electronics and enjoy understanding what aspects of design most strongly influences performance. The OCD side of my DIY exploits has now firmly taken a back seat for 2 mains reasons:
1) I answered many of the questions I had
2) I decided to get more of a life (not true rally, work took over....)
That's excellent because it demonstrates both an enquiring mind, which is healthy, and also the ability of knowing when to stop at the point when enough information has been learned for now and then simply enjoy the results obtained, which is also healthy. OCD comes in, I feel, when the enquiring mind overrules one's ability to prioritise the latter over the former.
OCD does not however apply just to DIY.
Indeed not - far from it; I was merely giving what I considered as a valid example. I have met people who I think fit the category I have described perfectly - where, to put it as politely as possible, it's obvious that any love they have of music firmly takes a back seat to the obsession they have for fiddling, and incidentally none of them are members here ;)
how about someone who is admirably focused on getting a 1210 to perform an audiophile (or whatever term you prefer) job with mods to power supply, feet, arm, spindle etc and then placing the deck on an amazing number of Mana-style stands? This may not be DIY but viewed by people who just pop a CD on or listen to iPods such behaviour will be seen as OCD. They might say, "for heavens sake, just something that works in the first place!".
Hahahaha... I was waiting for that one and am surprised that it hasn't come sooner! :eyebrows:
You're quite right of course, but like you Clive, as I mentioned above, I know when to stop at any given time and simply sit back and enjoy the results. The fact is that I spend way more time (some 5-6 hours per day on average) listening to music than I do any fiddling with my 1210 or anything else in my system.
Sure, if something comes up which I feel might upgrade any part of my system I'll look into it and audition it if necessary, then implement it if I consider that it passes the SPPV test, but once done, I simply relax back into music listening mode, enjoy the sonic benefits I've achieved, worrying not about anything else.
The trick is to be able to switch in and out of analytical mode as the occasion demands, and when listening to music on your system never obsess about any minor faults that are detected. If your system is good enough it will always showcase the music first and foremost, and not the faults, thus allowing your ears and mind to relax and always be satisfied with the presentation. I can do this relatively easily.
As for the Mana stands, on face of it, I can quite understand how my rather 'over-the-top' collection could be seen as 'obsessive', however the truth of the matter is, and I'm being completely honest here, I haven't touched them or done anything with them since about 2 years ago when I sold most of my original stands and had clones made, which I obviously had to set-up. Otherwise, they just sit there and do their job (very effectively) and I reap the sonic rewards. Basically, they're just a 'given' and a permanent fixture that I don't even think about now.
If I were truly obsessive in that respect you'd have read about me experimenting with different stands and chopping and changing them accordingly. I've had Mana supports now since 2001, which is testament to their effectiveness and also how satisfied I am with them.
Also, how do we differentiate between our having OCD or simply being Nerdy?
That's a difficult one. We're all "hi-fi nerds" in some way or another, however I guess that the difference is some nerds are nerdy all the time and others are only nerdy when they need to be! ;)
Marco.
Marco,audio beliefs,system building or/and way of listening (positioning etc) is something very personal.Stan gave you an example with his NS-1000.Let me give you a similar one only more extreme.I own ProAc Response 4s and i have them 24cm from the rear wall.
Why? Because whenever i move them forward,inside the room,i don't like the way they sound.Too threadbare and thin sounding for my taste. As for your question,if i think someone has a true valid point,i would reassess my beliefs,as-long-as i do not have to pay extra money to experiment or his/her beliefs,no matter how true or valid they are,don't involve additional hassle.Besides,who'se to stop me from going back to the way i used to do things ?
As everything has flaws my answer is I would be exceedingly comfortable with any advice, however whether you can act on that advice is another matter.
Same here. The only considerations I have for acting on any advice which I consider to be good and potentially of benefit to my system are:
1) Does it (whatever it may be) offer high SPPV?
2) Can I afford it?
3) Can I implement it fairly quickly and easily?
4) Is it safe?
Anything else is of secondary importance, including if necessary having to revisit and reassess something that I had previously considered as unsuitable. I'm not proud, blinkered, nor easily embarrassed, and therefore I don't have a problem admitting I'm wrong or have made mistakes.
Basically, I remain always open-minded with hi-fi and follow no forms of absolutism. This I feel is a healthy state of mind to have, rather than being the opposite.
Marco.
interesting points raised..
my view( as a DIYer) is the following.. we are all on a road somewhere with our kit, it may be one of being happy with what you've got and parking up.. or moving forwards with slight or sometimes major improvements via trial and error and or getting out and listening to what is about..
the practical guy will always look at things from a diffent perspective to the less practical types, he has the advantage he does not have to buy.. he can make as well..and the options are greater. when one knows the really good componets from the past that can be incorporated.
I for one have been both routes, as most diyer's have,
i have had the experence of buying a 3k valve amp, only to find, when i was brave enought to make my 1st valve amp, that 3k se amp sounded like the Tv in comparison to what i just made..
I then spent 5 or 6 yers thinking hi fi did not get any better than my large backloaded horns and px4 amp.. how wrong was I..
one needs to get out to listen and compare ...
I make a point (like others) to hear lots of kit,
i have heard £50k systems that just start to sound realistic..
but at this point, my diy efforts, as a sytem, continue to be (in my view) as good as i've heard.. not perfect though... i do keep looking, listening, tweeking and challenging myself...
i build new amps and play about because i can, i have lots of bits for doing that, and sometimes.. i get an improvement.. so my everyday systems then change to include that
I do hear some good components that i would like to buy.. or emulate via diy... but i will not buy now with out being sure..
i also get a pleasure out of hearing some really good sounds from some very reasonable, yet 'different' kit, scotmoose's speaker designs, coupled with some of nelson pass's low wattage amps are some very good sound's for the low costs involved.. you need to make it all of course.. or if are lucky enough to get your hands on pre built..
me, i spend alot of money on my hi fi systems and valves etc,
I also spend a fair time listening to my music, 10-15 hours a week i would say..
and the best bit for me.. is the marvel at the sound i'm getting on kit i have made.. and the wonder of what to make next, to further improve things, I usually have all the parts needed, its just the time and the drive to get on with it..
my measure of good kit is the amount of music sounds poor, less is best..
and every type of music should sound right.
steve
Same here. The only considerations I have for acting on any advice which I consider to be good and potentially of benefit to my system are:
1) Does it (whatever it may be) offer high SPPV?
2) Can I afford it?
3) Can I implement it fairly quickly and easily?
4) Is it safe?
Anything else is of secondary importance, including if necessary having to revisit and reassess something that I had previously considered as unsuitable. I'm not proud, blinkered, nor easily embarrassed, and therefore I don't have a problem admitting I'm wrong or having made mistakes.
Basically, I remain always open-minded with hi-fi and follow no forms of absolutism. This I feel is a healthy state of mind to have, rather than being the opposite.
Marco.
I'd also add as a consideration WAF, she packs a mean punch :o
Indeed. I consider myself fortunate though not to have that problem. I've have a wife, but she's probably got more problem accepting me than the hi-fi! :lolsign:
Marco.
Interesting points relating to WAF, recently I had a client who remarked 'Your wife's very tolerate of your listening levels', 'Mine would have thrown a turbo wobbler by now'
At very modest volume levels?
Just how much of an issue is the woman in your hifi selection?
Is it at the same level if you have a separate room or area for your music?
If you have a shared room how much compromise do you make?
What is the biggest consideration, the amount of equipment, the looks of it, or just what she considers the 'faff factor'
aquapiranha
21-01-2009, 12:44
Interesting points relating to WAF, recently I had a client who remarked 'Your wife's very tolerate of your listening levels', 'Mine would have thrown a turbo wobbler by now'
At very modest volume levels?
Just how much of an issue is the woman in your hifi selection?
Is it at the same level if you have a separate room or area for your music?
If you have a shared room how much compromise do you make?
What is the biggest consideration, the amount of equipment, the looks of it, or just what she considers the 'faff factor'
That is an excellent point Mr. C. I know I am lucky as I live alone and can do what I like, but even so I think lots of people need to grow a pair and tell the mrs what is what. I bet they get all the say on a new kitchen or bathroom after all.
Great questions, Tony! I shall sit back and observe with interest :eyebrows:
Whilst appeciating people's different circumstances and not making references to anyone in particular, I think there are far too many hen-pecked husbands and partners out there! ;)
The question to answer here is who wears the pants in your household - her or you? Maybe you're more partial to her dress? :lol:
WAF is largely a British thing, I feel, as I know from experience that the mentality of people in that respect in other areas of Europe is generally somewhat different.
Marco.
That is an excellent point Mr. C. I know I am lucky as I live alone and can do what I like, but even so I think lots of people need to grow a pair and tell the mrs what is what. I bet they get all the say on a new kitchen or bathroom after all.
Too bloody right, Steve. It's a particular bugbear of mine.
It's quite simple: if you pay half the rent or the mortgage then you're entitled to make half the decisions in the house - end of!!
We (as in 'one' - not me) pander too much to the wants of our women folk here in the UK - the majority of men are weak-willed in that respect; anything for a quiet life and all that - bollocks! Of course one must be considerate, but exactly how far do you take it before you end up being nothing more than a glorified puppet?
Come on, all joking aside, let's think about this one seriously, guys!
Marco.
That is an excellent point Mr. C. I know I am lucky as I live alone and can do what I like, but even so I think lots of people need to grow a pair and tell the mrs what is what. I bet they get all the say on a new kitchen or bathroom after all.
It's all about compromise and no she doesn't get all the say on bathrooms or kitchens.
Beechwoods
21-01-2009, 13:39
Well I have my own room so :ner: :ner: Mrs B grumps about my kit, but when it comes to it I get my way heh heh... :)
I have my own room too but my teenage kids complain that late at night they can hear the bass. I'm in the cellar, they are on the 2nd floor. (4 floors in total)
It's all about compromise and no she doesn't get all the say on bathrooms or kitchens.
Shuggz, I agree totally, and this question isn't directed at you in particular, but isn't it often the case that, as far as the hi-fi is concerned, wifes makes far less compromises than husbands do in the areas which matter most to their wives?
It's certainly what I've witnessed most over the years in other people's lives. I'd like to know why? IMO, decision making should be a 50-50 split across the board, providing both people are contributing equally to the costs and running of the house, not one person dictating to the other where the hi-fi should go and what it should consist of - no offence.
Compromise in a relationship is a two-way street, not a 'Give Way to oncoming traffic' when your wife returns home from shoe shopping with more carrier bags than she can safely manage through the door! :lolsign:
Marco.
These are genuine questions, and are not loaded in any way.
Marco, on your point of the English issue of er indoors has a lot of the clout in the house hold, I would beg to differ going on the experiences we haver had with our European clients, seems Europe is not much different in that respect.
Another question here from the group, this is not meant in any way to be insulating or wise.
Would you mind listing your age please, I'll start Mr .C is 42.
Shuggz, I agree totally, and this question isn't directed at you in particular, but isn't it often the case that, as far as the hi-fi is concerned, wifes makes far less compromises than husbands do in the areas which matter most to their wives?
It's certainly what I've witnessed most over the years in other people's lives. I'd like to know why? IMO, decision making should be a 50-50 split across the board, providing both people are contributing equally to the costs and running of the house, not one person dictating to the other where the hi-fi should go and what it should consist of - no offence.
Compromise in a relationship is a two-way street, not a 'Give Way to oncoming traffic' when your wife returns home from shoe shopping with more carrier bags than she can safely manage through the door! :lolsign:
Marco.
No offence taken, she's considerably more understanding than some I've met, one poor chap I know has had to loose 6k's worth of kit, for a mini all in one system, all to keep his Mrs happy. :steam:
Why does it happen, I guess some folk just want an easy life and not have to sleep with one eye open.
Moi is 43 :) D.O.B: 14th August 1965.
Oh, and I know where you're coming from Tony. I guess it boils down to what your particular experiences are. Mine are obviously rather different from yours, particularly when it comes to Italian men and women, where men, how shall I put it, are somewhat 'old-fashioned' when it comes to roles in marriages and relationships.
Trust me, I speak with much experience here, and not necessarily in terms of my own marriage ;)
Marco.
No offence taken, she's considerably more understanding than some I've met, one poor chap I know has had to loose 6k's worth of kit, for a mini all in one system, all to keep his Mrs happy. :steam:
Why does it happen, I guess some folk just want an easy life and not have to sleep with one eye open.
Jeez. I find the first bit very sad and the second bit very shocking!
Why do people marry these types of women in the first place, and most importantly, why do they sit back and become victims of that sort of behaviour?
I have a very close, loving, relationship with my wife, where we both see each other as equals. We've been happily married for 18 years. We decide everything together, in fact do most things together, but no-one is 'the boss'. We both respect each other too much for that. I'm sure that those here who know Del and I would vouch for that :)
That's the way it should always be, and for the life of me I can't see why anyone would settle for anything less, other than if it was to protect the interests of kids, but even that, IMO, isn't really a good enough reason to muddle through such an unhappy relationship unless the children concerned were very young.
Deep and thoughtful today? You betcha!
I'm sorry, but that poor chap you described above is just a mug. What I find most bizarre though is that WAF, certainly here in the UK, seems to be a universal 'given' - an established fact, almost, that is just tolerated and accepted, such that phrases in relation to hi-fi equipment as: "she wont let me", "I'm not allowed to", or "I must have such and such or she'll go mental", etc, have become almost the norm. How weird and more than slightly loopy... :scratch:
I gave up being bossed around like that when I was a kid. There are too many subservient little wallflowers around, I feel... :eyebrows:
Marco.
Beechwoods
21-01-2009, 17:08
I'm struggling to see what age has to do with WAF compliance :) There are things like lack of space and money that might justifiably prohibit certain combinations of kit but if it's your passion and you're not spending the kid's college money then... well... every man needs his shed!
I have friends both young and old in healthy and longterm relationships that allow for obsessive collections and decent Hi-Fi... so age isn't a factor as far as I can see...
PS... Like Clive the only thing I have to watch is waking the kids up with the volume (I get the loft and they're below me :))
Jeez. I find the first bit very sad and the second bit very shocking!
Why do people marry these types of women in the first place, and most importantly, why do they sit back and become victims of that sort of behaviour?
I have a very close, loving, relationship with my wife, where we both see each other as equals. We've been happily married for 18 years. We decide everything together, in fact do most things together, but no-one is 'the boss'. We both respect each other too much for that. I'm sure that those here who know Del and I would vouch for that :)
That's the way it should always be, and for the life of me I can't see why anyone would settle for anything less, other than if it was to protect the interests of kids, but even that, IMO, isn't really a good enough reason to muddle through such an unhappy relationship unless the children concerned were very young.
Deep and thoughtful today? You betcha!
I'm sorry, but that poor chap you described above is just a mug. What I find most bizarre though is that WAF, certainly here in the UK, seems to be a universal 'given' - an established fact, almost, that is just tolerated and accepted, such that phrases in relation to hi-fi equipment as: "she wont let me", "I'm not allowed to", or "I must have such and such or she'll go mental", etc, have become almost the norm. How weird and more than slightly loopy... :scratch:
I gave up being bossed around like that when I was a kid. There are too many subservient little wallflowers around, I feel... :eyebrows:
Marco.
Marco
Well I told him he was nuts, but he's besotted with her and apparently she makes up for control freakery in other ways :eyebrows:
I guess me and the Mrs get on because both of us are realistic enough to recognise our own frailties, plus we both believe that relationships are either parasitic or symbiotic, not romantic but true nonetheless.
Anyway my normal riposte to my other half when she questions my behaviour is ' there was only one perfect man in this world and we nailed him to a cross' the replies are always quite entertaining, like 'bugger off Beelzebub' :lolsign:
Spectral Morn
21-01-2009, 19:45
When I was in retail, right at the start. I was told I had to help move a system from a house to a new house. The customer was a woman (rare). I took the kit down to the new house. She led me to the room. " I want this set up to sound the best,carte blanch." I did as instructed and it sounded brilliant. Her husband came into the room looked at the position of the speakers and the thick heavy cables running across the floor. " You can't have that, those speakers there"he points at them and then the cables "And those there ......" She looks at him and says" Shut up dear, This is where its going, and thats that. And if you don't like it, then you will have to move your Motor Bike collection from the Garage and I'll have that instead" He slopped off ......:lolsign: Talk about role reversal.
When working in the brown goods trade a lady had been coming in and talking to me about TV's. She fancied a big 32 in Dolby Digital Toshiba 100 htz set and DVD player. She brought her husband and family in on a Saturday afternoon. Talk about bored he was not interested. I did my talk and she lost it with him. "why do we need that, lets go."he said. "This is for me" she said. She turned to me, apologized for her husband and bought the lot, on the spot.
This has happened only twice in 20 years. Maybe women are more choosy about what they get OCD about. This has usually a practical side (in their eyes). Looking good (shoes, clothes, handbags etc) and the appearance of the house. Nerdy Women are rare (why?), perhaps because they for the most part grow up and us(men), in many cases don't ? I wonder why that seems to be the case? Men do like their toys/interests more than women(that they let on). It may be that children become the focus for women and keeping up with the jones and audio just doesnt figure at all. Different priorities.
Anyway, I am truly blessed by my wife. She allows me to do what I want. She will ask " Do you really need it ?" every so often, but thats it. I don't smoke, don't drink and don't have any children. And audio is only one of many interests I have. Age 43.
Regards D S D L----Neil :)
Maybe its true
"Men are for Mars and woman from Venus";)
Some people want to create perfection some people just want to listen to perfection
Steve Toy
22-01-2009, 02:19
I see the topic has drifted onto the Gary Irwin syndrome :lol: (not you Gary above.) WAF factor generally features very high on the list of priorities in the all-fur-coat-no-knickers households.
I'm fortunate in that my hi-fi/music hobby was already a part of me when I met my wife. Thus, me and hi-fi came as part of a combined package. Moreover, I'm a few years older than her and I guess I've made it clear I am rather set in my ways and not for changing. I'm fortunate again in that she accepts me for who I am.
She did get a bit upset when I bought the rather imposing Heco Celan 500 speakers in the house last summer but was less bothered a month later when they were replaced by the even bigger 700s :smoking:. She likes her music to have a certain palpable quality (she attends :rock: concerts on occasions) and I've explained to her that the laws of physics cannot be defeated.
I agree with Marco that those seeking "a quiet life" by rolling over and being ultra-accommodating are utter fools making rods for their own backs.:mental:
Relationships are being equal partners and making compromises not giving in all the time to keep her happy.
plus we both believe that relationships are either parasitic or symbiotic
I believe this too.
I agree with Marco that those seeking "a quiet life" by rolling over and being ultra-accommodating are utter fools making rods for their own backs.
It's a total nonsense, Steve - and that applies to both men and women in a relationship. Being a 'soft touch' gets you nowhere in life, as people will simply take advantage and walk all over you. You have to be strong-willed and confident in a relationship just as much as you are accommodating and willing to compromise. It's a matter of striking a healthy balance. This 'she who must be obeyed' nonsense, which harks back to the dark ages, should be completely erased from the male psyche.
My theory is that too many men getting married or involved in a relationship with women are simply looking for a replacement for their mothers, rather than an equal partner, so therefore become subservient to their wifes or partners in such a way as they would have done to their mothers as children. I think this is deeply sad and more than a little weird.
I've seen it happen all too often: married men, for example, being given 'pocket money' by their wifes, like kids, to spend (often from their own wages!!) while she takes complete control of the household finances, and so also makes all the financial decisions. Once this is allowed to happen it therefore follows that she is also allowed to make all the other major decisions, too! Another example of this bizarre, rather freakish, 'mother/child' relationship in marriages or partnerships is where women buy men all their clothes. I know of married men who are effectively 'dressed' by their wifes - what's all that about? :mental:
The excuse made is always that men don't have a clue in that respect and so it's better that women with their 'superior fashion sense' are allowed to exert their control here too - talk about lazy thinking! The question that begs to be asked is why they don't have a clue in the first place? What they need to do is get off their lazy backsides, think for themselves, and start shopping for clothes and developing a sense of fashion of their own like normal people have done since leaving childhood, otherwise this sort of lazy and submissive thinking only serves to further reinforce the risible and pathetic 'mothering' of men by women which causes the very problems we're discussing here.
The weak-willed and spineless slugs of the world, posing as men, should take a long hard look at themselves in the mirror, grow some 'cohonas', and start taking control of their lives, or forever be breast-fed like babies and treated as such, too... One only has to think of the hilarious sketch in Little Britain where the 'husband' wants some "bitty" - funny it may be, but also how true! :eyebrows:
Marco.
P.S Neil, nice tale - love it! :lol:
or forever be breast-fed like babies and treated as such, too...
Hang on guys some blokes actually want this and some know no other way.
Bare in mind that if they've been conditioned to be this way from an early age, then they won't have the mental capacity or the stones to change.
Don't make the mistake of thinking that because we're lucky enough to be in understanding relationships that this can be easily found, it's a jungle out there and sometimes it's better the devil you know than the one you don't.
At the end of the days I tell guys who moan about the missus to either leave, work it out by talking to her or just shut the f##k up and take their life in their hands, if you know what I mean. :eyebrows:
Hang on guys some blokes actually want this and some know no other way.
Shuggz, well all I can say is that it's a sad indicament of our society and there's something deeply disturbing and fundamentally wrong with how people are being raised by their parents if that's the case :mental:
just shut the f##k up and take their life in their hands, if you know what I mean.
Indeed - and frankly I'd like to see more of it happening, starting with men not being such wimps when it comes to what hi-fi is bought and where it's placed in the living room of their own home!! ;)
Marco.
The weak-willed and spineless slugs of the world, posing as men, should take a long hard look at themselves in the mirror, grow some 'cohonas', and start taking control of their lives, or forever be breast-fed like babies and treated as such, too... One only has to think of the hilarious sketch in Little Britain where the 'husband' wants some "bitty" - funny it may be, but also how true!
Marco,
After spending far too much time studying Hifi show attendees (the words given a pass-out and she's thinks I am at kids football are heard too many times :-( ) and *others* I have to say, there is a LOT of truth in your above statement.
Picture the scene.
<Guy wants sex <> woman looking for guy <> Woman gives guy want he wants (after a small interlude involving time, food and a not insubstantial amount of currency)<> Guy feel Whoa hey! <>small courtship in sues<> Marriage flows <>as soon as ring is on finger<> life over<> woman turns into control freakette<> Guy sinks into subservient role for eternity >
Ok, that does not hold true for around 30% of the hitched population where it is an equal partnership and both enjoy each other's hobbies and life.
Either that or in the main hifi attracts these sorts of people, some times it scares me when I see them.
Just to put a counter point across, when we attended the Paris Hifi show last year, it was filled with everything that is *bad* about hifi in general, any outsiders looking in would have cringed, 55+ yo men (who are still under going a mid life crisis after 15 years) with pony tails and too tight fitting jeans, long coats, 'bobbing away' to trad jazz and some other weird sounds that redefined ' musical masturbation'
Geek's collecting as many leaflets and bags as they could carry, aloof owners of high end equipment slating various rooms, women that did attend looking forlorn, harassed and generally thoroughly pissed off.
Exhibitors looking jaded (not all) the atmosphere was not good (now this could have been any show in the UK as well to be fair)
If hifi wishes to truly survive and prosper, then it needs to take a good long look at its self in the mirror, and address EVERY issue before it goes forward, it need to be a TEAM effort from the consumers right up to the manufacturers.
Sorry about the rant, just need a break for coding some new pages for the website.
Tony,
Picture the scene.
<Guy wants sex <> woman looking for guy <> Woman gives guy want he wants (after a small interlude involving time, food and a not insubstantial amount of currency)<> Guy feel Whoa hey! <>small courtship in sues<> Marriage flows <>as soon as ring is on finger<> life over<> woman turns into control freakette<> Guy sinks into subservient role for eternity >
Haha, indeed! Fine, if that's what you want and you're happy about it, but the interesting observation on audio forums, for example, is that the 'WAF worriers', for want of a better expression, are always moaning about the situation, or making reference to it as an unfortunate but accpeted 'given', and somehow 'part and parcel' of married life. Is it f*ck! :mental:
'Happy' it would seem they are not, so they should stop moaning about it and accepting it and do something about it!!
Ok, that does not hold true for around 30% of the hitched population where it is an equal partnership and both enjoy each other's hobbies and life.
I consider that as normal, which I why I struggle to understand the, erm, 'alternatives'...
Either that or in the main hifi attracts these sorts of people, some times it scares me when I see them.Just to put a counter point across, when we attended the Paris Hifi show last year, it was filled with everything that is *bad* about hifi in general, any outsiders looking in would have cringed, 55+ yo men (who are still under going a mid life crisis after 15 years) with pony tails and too tight fitting jeans, long coats, 'bobbing away' to trad jazz and some other weird sounds that redefined ' musical masturbation'
LOL - me too, it's so pathetic and cringe-worthy. I'm thinking: "Get a bloody hair cut for God's sake and wear some sensible trousers, then perhaps you might look half your age instead of some sad old duffer who thinks he's an aging 'rocker'!" :lol:
This is a bit of a 'Room 101' thing for me, so I'll go into it in a bit more detail...
Don't get me wrong, the odd person at that age might be able to carry off a pony tail successfully, and appear quite 'individual' in the process, but the ones who don't (and they need only take a good look in the mirror regularly), who insist on clinging onto their youth in such a rather sad way, only serve to make themselves look ridiculous.
It's all very well thinking that the 'cool' look you created 30 or 40 years ago is part of your identity, or whatever, but unfortunately what you could carry off then with some panache now usually has quite the opposite effect, because although you may be the same person inside, what's on the outside has moved on quite dramatically: it's called the ageing process. Realistically, you have to evolve with it or more often then not look, erm, a bit of a tool. I mean, would you still wear the teenage-style clothes you once did when you were fourteen now when you are forty? - No, because you would look bloody stupid, wouldn't you, so why should the same be any different with your hair? What would a 50-year old woman look like with pigtails?? The fact is, if you don't want to look like a muppet you have to accept and embrace your body ageing and move with it, not against it.
It's the same with women in their 50s, or even older, wearing mini skirts and low-cut tops - what's all that about? :mental: Or guys going bald on top and in denial who still insist on growing their hair long at the back and sides (or the Brylcream 'sweep-over look'), as if desperately trying to convince themselves that they've still got some semblence of hair left on their bonce, and in the process all they're really doing is showcasing their baldy pates even further, creating that 'Friars Tuck' monk-look which is of course so iconic (not) :eyebrows:
Again I feel like saying: "Get yer hair cut, 'granddad' - keep it short all over or shave it all off completely and it'll knock about 10 years off you!"
And what is it with guys who have huge beer guts wearing trousers about three sizes too small for them, trying to fit into whatever waist size they took 5 or 10 years ago, by dropping the waistband of their trousers down to their hips, thus neatly avoiding their belly, and strapping it all in with a belt? All they're doing is accentuating their beer gut ten times more and looking like a trussed-up turkey :mental: - buy trousers that fit in the first bloody place!!
Sheer muppetry of the highest order... {RANT OVER} :lolsign:
Geek's collecting as many leaflets and bags as they could carry, aloof owners of high end equipment slating various rooms, women that did attend looking forlorn, harassed and generally thoroughly pissed off.
Exhibitors looking jaded (not all) the atmosphere was not good (now this could have been any show in the UK as well to be fair)
I know, and they always seem to have high-pitched, whining, voices too, don't they? - Like as if they're talking through their nose!
If hifi wishes to truly survive and prosper, then it needs to take a good long look at its self in the mirror, and address EVERY issue before it goes forward, it need to be a TEAM effort from the consumers right up to the manufacturers.
Indeed. Are you going to the Chester Group forum members' systems show on 1st March? It'll be interesting to see what that turns out to be like... ;)
Sorry about the rant, just need a break for coding some new pages for the website.
No worries - rants are always appreciated and welcome here :)
Marco.
Spectral Morn
22-01-2009, 10:25
Hi guys
I know, and they always seem to have high-pitched, whining, voices too, don't they? - Like as if they're talking through their nose!
Maybe thats an English thing.... never come across that one....;)
Regards D S D L----Neil :)
Covenant
22-01-2009, 11:09
My wife likes spending on clothes, bags and shoes, I like spending on hi-fi. I suppose we look at what each other has purchased but only to be polite.
Am I more keen on the boxes than the music? Probably but I still love music and how good quality sound can be achieved for moderate amounts of money.
Badge snob? Only in the sense that I like having unusual stuff that friends havent heard of. Dont care if it only cost 50p.
I suppose I spend some of my listening time analysing the quality in order to decide on the next improvement rather than enjoying music for music sake.
I dont suppose I am going to change at the ripe old age of 54.
Am I willing to be told I have gone in the wrong direction and need to re-evaluate? Yep, it might mean buying more kit!
Peter Stockwell
22-01-2009, 12:53
Marco,
when we attended the Paris Hifi show last year, it was filled with everything that is *bad* about hifi in general, any outsiders looking in would have cringed, 55+ yo men (who are still under going a mid life crisis after 15 years) with pony tails and too tight fitting jeans, long coats, 'bobbing away' to trad jazz and some other weird sounds that redefined ' musical masturbation'
France, in general, is much more video orientated than other market and I think it's a sad state of affaires that there are mostly sad old gits likeme in interested in hifi.
You may not like it but jazz is, relatively, popular here. Paris even has its own jazz station (89.9fm TSF www.tsfjazz.com (http://www.tsfjazz.com) ).
Ok, me ? I pretend I'm in it for the music, I'm going to a show (jazz :ner: ) tonight. But I like fiddling with the kit, if I was only in it for the music I would have stopped at the Nait5. Better kit gets you access to more music, that is some music is too complicated for lesser kit and it just sounds like noise. As to what is better or not so better kit, that's in the ear of the listener.
Recently I've been on a bender with the kit, it all started with the SL1210!
I sometimes go visit other audiofools, and have rare visits to my gaff, but I've either got buy on the buzz, as I did with my 401 back in the '90s and also with SL1210 recently, or I'll demo some kit with dealers. I like the way that Naim presents music, it fits with my priorities, so getting more of the same is relatively no risk, even if it does get too expensive.
I wouldn't say I was a badge snob, but I would certainly try other kit based on it's reputation. Things that come to mind are, Wadia CD players, Lavardin amps, Harbeth speakers, and I'm sure there are others.
cheers
I've been having a think about all this for a few days now... with surprising (to me) results.
Pretty much everything in my system is going to have to go!
And I'm not really sure what it means. :scratch:
Beechwoods
22-01-2009, 21:36
It means you've probably been listening to your wife too much!
It means you've probably been listening to your wife too much!
Ah well!... no actually.
Just been making her listen to me!
It might cost me a pair of curtains or summat though. ;)
It might cost me a pair of curtains or summat though.
That sounds like a good deal.
Last time i tried negotiating, it cost me three leather sofas.
When you start chucking yer system out, let me know and i'll be up there with me wheelbarrow.:)
When you start chucking yer system out, let me know and i'll be up there with me wheelbarrow.:)
Will do Al... make sure the 'barra' is full of used tenners! ;)
Beechwoods
22-01-2009, 22:00
So this is 'good' getting rid of... as in 'and replacing with stuff more exciting' very shortly thereafter?!
Mike don't do it my advise is allow the wife to go out get your fav album out and listen as loud as u can
If that does not warm your soul then get rid of your system and forget about hifi
;)
So this is 'good' getting rid of... as in 'and replacing with stuff more exciting' very shortly thereafter?!
You got it bud! ;)
What's the revised plan of action then, Mikey? :)
Marco.
Hmmm.... much is still up in the air.
But it starts with the room, everything gets shifted 180 degrees.
Then... KT88's are out. Twin quarter wave Castles are out. Cables are out. Rack is out.
All to be replaced with 'new stuff'. Mucho DIY is in! :dance:
The new KT88 is the 300B!
Ooo-er nice one :smoking:
Let's hope those f*ckers from Empire Stores cough up - if not the boys might just have to pay them a little visit ;)
Marco.
I've kinda got pissed off a bit after today's shenanigans! ;)
For those who don't know, Empire Stores has gone tits up and taken the money I recently payed for a brand new Technics SL1210 with it. Twats!
I might get it back, but it won't be in the next ten minutes or anything.
I think you're taking it remarkably well, actually :)
Marco.
Well, what else can I do? :confused:
T'ain't exactly a fortune... Worse things happen at sea, as they say! :)
Or summat.
Beechwoods
22-01-2009, 22:26
Mucho DIY is in! :dance:
Sounds fantastic :) Any excuse to retreat to the shed, eh ;)
Any excuse to retreat to the shed, eh ;)
Oh yeah.
And I'm gonna get one of them too! :eyebrows:
Sorry to hear that Mike.
I guess it's a dodgy time to buy anything of value, unless you can actually walk out the door with it.:(
Same here. The only considerations I have for acting on any advice which I consider to be good and potentially of benefit to my system are:
1) Does it (whatever it may be) offer high SPPV?
2) Can I afford it?
3) Can I implement it fairly quickly and easily?
4) Is it safe?
Anything else is of secondary importance, including if necessary having to revisit and reassess something that I had previously considered as unsuitable. I'm not proud, blinkered, nor easily embarrassed, and therefore I don't have a problem admitting I'm wrong or having made mistakes.
Basically, I remain always open-minded with hi-fi and follow no forms of absolutism. This I feel is a healthy state of mind to have, rather than being the opposite.
Marco.
Well after speaking to Mr Toy, my open mindedness made me give some cables from Mark Grant a whirl, they've had me scratching my head, how come these buggers work better than the somewhat more expensive offerings, tis witchcraft I tell ye.
They're fantastic, aren't they? :eyebrows:
Quite simply, I haven't heard any better cables anywhere, ever, - at any price! 'Giant-killing' gear offering the highest SPPV value is undoubtedly what it's at with hi-fi...
Marco.
They're fantastic, aren't they? :eyebrows:
Quite simply, I haven't heard any better cables anywhere, ever, - at any price! 'Giant-killing' gear offering the highest SPPV value is undoubtedly what it's at with hi-fi...
Marco.
True and I've ordered some black mamba's as well, they too could be interesting.
I think you can take that as a given ;)
Marco.
I think you can take that as a given ;)
Marco.
Somebody also recommended Maplins OFC copper as a link between external crossover and speaker terminals, which has to be a pee take.
Why not? Give it a go - remember, there are no 'absolutes'! ;)
Marco.
Why not? Give it a go - remember, there are no 'absolutes'! ;)
Marco.
:doh: okay, death by cable
chris@panteg
23-01-2009, 22:56
Any of you guy's ever tried Hitachi 102 ssx LCOFC speaker cable' its rather good i bought it from Kevin scott of definitive audio nottingham, it was a big surprise for me.
He also sold me an interconnect made from standard copper with an outer braid and the worst cheap'n'nasty plugs you ever saw' and do you know what it sounded bloody good ' i asked him why the cheap plugs and he told me it gave a really good tight contact.
They were about £160 again i asked him why so much , and he said for every good one they made about 10 had to be thrown away' as a real bitch to solder those cheap plugs.
His current one's use neutric plugs, i am sure that Guy knows Kevin so he may be familiar with these cables .
Somebody also recommended Maplins OFC copper as a link between external crossover and speaker terminals, which has to be a pee take.
I've recommended Maplin's 50 strand in red and black for re-wiring the insides of old Speakers like mine which came with 17 strand (less than) bell wire. What was good enough for Epos ES14's is ok for me (the wires look to be the same make, but someone will come along and tell me I'm mistaken no doubt :))
anthonyTD
23-01-2009, 23:36
Any of you guy's ever tried Hitachi 102 ssx LCOFC speaker cable' its rather good i bought it from Kevin scott of definitive audio nottingham, it was a big surprise for me.
He also sold me an interconnect made from standard copper with an outer braid and the worst cheap'n'nasty plugs you ever saw' and do you know what it sounded bloody good ' i asked him why the cheap plugs and he told me it gave a really good tight contact.
They were about £160 again i asked him why so much , and he said for every good one they made about 10 had to be thrown away' as a real bitch to solder those cheap plugs.
His current one's use neutric plugs, i am sure that Guy knows Kevin so he may be familiar with these cables .
hi chris,
i still have some of that hitachi cable somewhere, ive had it for years, and i agree, its a good cable.:)
anthony,TD...
chris@panteg
23-01-2009, 23:50
Hi Anthony
Yes its quite surprisingly good' though there is always something out there even better i guess ,the black mamba looks interesting.
Ali Tait
23-01-2009, 23:54
Yes the Mamba I find very good.Quite seamless top to bottom.
As usual I been reflecting on this topic
I plan to go a whole year without upgrading any part of my system , my reference point has always been live music and think as far as hifi goes this is impossible task Of course there are a few items that would improve my system some nice Open baffles for starters but the speakers I got are pretty good.
I think we owe a lot into those DIY tweakers; some may spend more time tweaking than listening to music but there knowledge and skills allows us to find cheaper alternatives to creating good sound and for that alone I am thankful.
About 10 years ago I could never imagine me writing on a hifi forum I would of considered it close to train spotting, so in future I will try and limit my observations more to music rather than Hifi where others have far more experience and knowledge.
...so in future I will try and limit my observations more to music rather than Hifi where others have far more experience and knowledge.
Don't you dare, matey! We value all your observations here, John - hi-fi, music or otherwise orientated :)
So keep your hi-fi comments based on 'limited knowledge', coming... ;)
Marco.
A thought provoking topic indeed. Seems to have wandered off a little here and there as such things will.
I have been mulling over various aspects of this for days and TBPH could not decide whether I wished or needed to contribute and if so why.
Being at a loose end, I went back to the beginning of this thread and reread the opening and realised that there were a few points I considered worth raising.
For myself it is definitely about the music, I only became seriously involved in this whole malarkey a few years ago when I became dissatisfied with what had sufficed until then.
In general terms I think many people will become defensive when "robustly challenged" - confrontation is not always the best route to change.
Acceptance of one's own realities, yes, that is necessary.
I think of myself as largely practical and for that reason, I suppose, I would be considered subjectivist. If I cannot hear a difference, then to all practical purposes there is not one.
I would not however, discount the possibility that under different circumstances or development and training of my listening skills that I might perceive what I do not now.
There are many things that I perceive now that I did not a few years ago, that has come about from discussion, listening and trying different things/components.
I am of an experimental and inquisitive nature and learn most things by trying and making lots of mistakes.
Occasionally I am able to learn from others mistakes.
Mostly my realities are bounded by accomodation & disposable income - not quite sure how to "confront" those except by buying lottery tickets.
Any "beliefs" I might have are, I would hope, merely the present state of my experience and open to change in the light of subsequent experience.
Yes, I do like a little DIY, less than I might have due to limited facilities rather than skills shortage, that is another of my realities.
I can and do, from time to time, have obsessive "testing sessions", cable comparisons, mat trials etc. but these are usually settled with a decision (never irrevocable) that something or other is preferred and may indicate an area of improvement to come or for further research.
But, I will do similar with different recordings of the same work to see which I prefer, so that is me not the gear.
Considering what I am presently using, I seem to have rather an eclectic collection, a prototype amp from a defunct manufacturer, a heavily modded stock amp, a modded but old CDP, an uncommon CDP, a modded preamp, severely modded T/T, DIY DAC, stock phono stages and rather uncommon speakers from another defunct manufacturer. (plus way too much other gear)
It has all been good fun, (just) affordable, and compared to where I started, sounds fabulous with most of my evergrowing collection of black round, small silver round and digital downloads.
So, what did I want to say ?
call me a w****r for getting old and still having a pony tail and I will be defensive, tell me in no uncertain terms that cables make no difference when I perceive otherwise, fine, you are entitled to your opinion.
Tell me that such and such sounds like ****, I will hear you and when or if possible test it for myself, if it is in a direction I think I might like to explore, not to prove you wrong, but to see if I hear what you do.
I often like to read the perceptions of the musically trained and compare that to how I hear (or don't) the same thing/piece of music.
Mutual learning from sharing experiences is that not what we are doing here?
Nice post tony...
Mutual learning from sharing experiences is that not what we are doing here?
spot on...
I consider myself fortunate in that I don`t obsess about it all or desire meaning from it. The music and an insight into the recording is all I ask.
Sure I have preferences for a type of presentation on a certain type of music. This will probably be biased toward my chosen colourations and the systems which have been my reference through continual useage rather than choice.
I could probably take any of the gear that guys are using here and live happily with it. I would probably adjust to it in days or weeks............see I told you I was easy pleased . I can enjoy listening to the meagre limitations of a budget system trying to extract information in it`s puny way. A bit like watching an old film and seeing the faults in the direction production and editing etc.
There is also the study of the gear itself. Some stuff is beautifully made and I like that in all things.
The storys of guys building their systems is always interesting. It`s good to see people getting a buzz from the music through the gear.......it`s a better way to spend money than car depreciation aint it?. Lastly I think Music /Hi Fi is a great interest in the cold and dark winters we get. Tuck yourself in with it all and let winter go by.
Steve Toy
27-01-2009, 01:42
Lastly I think Music /Hi Fi is a great interest in the cold and dark winters we get. Tuck yourself in with it all and let winter go by.
...and in the glorious summer months :D many of us are still at it!
Hi,
I only got to page 7 before feeling I should really stop reading forums and get on with my tax return so appologies if repeat anything.
My recent realisation, admission if you will, is that I enjoy music just as much while listening to the radio in bed through headphones as I do when sitting in front of my latest hi-fi purchase. What I enjoy about hifi is separate from the music, not necessarily separate from sound but separate from the human art form of music. You often see the same amongst musicians too - they can enthuse about the music, feel the emotion etc through the cheapest of hifi set-ups, read some old Stereophile interviews with promenant musicians as examples.
From this realisation, I can relax! I know I will always enjoy the music whatever. Finding the hifi combination that produces the ear candy that I also enjoy (creating an aural virtual reality in my living room that you can almost touch) combined with build quality and aesthetics can take as long as I want, box swapping for changes' sake. It is strangly relaxing and a relief to realise that for me it is just an obsession, a hobby, that ultimately I could drop if I had to - I just choose not to.
I've just been on holiday, travelling for six weeks, and the freedom from hifi thoughts felt sooo good and I can better seperate all this hifi stuff from the enjoyment of music ... so easy to fall back into the same routine again though, ahem.
I consider myself fortunate in that I don`t obsess about it all or desire meaning from it. The music and an insight into the recording is all I ask.
Sure I have preferences for a type of presentation on a certain type of music. This will probably be biased toward my chosen colourations and the systems which have been my reference through continual useage rather than choice.
I could probably take any of the gear that guys are using here and live happily with it. I would probably adjust to it in days or weeks............see I told you I was easy pleased . I can enjoy listening to the meagre limitations of a budget system trying to extract information in it`s puny way. A bit like watching an old film and seeing the faults in the direction production and editing etc.
There is also the study of the gear itself. Some stuff is beautifully made and I like that in all things.
The storys of guys building their systems is always interesting. It`s good to see people getting a buzz from the music through the gear.......it`s a better way to spend money than car depreciation aint it?. Lastly I think Music /Hi Fi is a great interest in the cold and dark winters we get. Tuck yourself in with it all and let winter go by.
Seems like wot I just wrote had been said already! Except that I do find myself obsessing about the beautifully made stuff...
Well Nat I think I must correct the first line of my post. I think we all obsess and desire meaning from putting a system together............otherwise why would we bother?. I meant it`s not a must have top of my list thing that totally drives my spare time.
If I`m understanding you then it is a good point that the hi fi and search for better sound is a bonus to the music rather than a prerequisite. That is healthy enough. Spare a thought for the other guys who are so keen and having a voracious appetite for discovery in sound and equipment. Why? Because they then have to explain the cost of it to the women who design their listening rooms:lolsign:
Good stuff Nat and Lexi, I'm with you on those aspects, I can enjoy the tunes on the store PA when working in one (get the irrits when they babble about the latest specials and interrupt something I particularly like) and my car system is no mobile disco, just as long as it does not pick up engine noise or rattle the speakers its fine (must say hard rock when driving is not good for me - I get heavy footed - classical or jazz is better/safer)
My preamp has had me feeling I want to replace it, but for most listening it is OK and provides the flexibility I want WRT input selection (CD, Tuner, Computer, LP) - for really serious listening I bypass it and gain in immediacy and reduced compression.
I can't help tinkering if I think something could be better though :doh:
But I'm like that with anything, not just hifi, always have had a problem with knowing when too much was enough :mental:
At the moment I am going through a period in which I am really happy with my sounds I am not sure if this is psychological or is it just having the whole synergy of the system right; even on my digital side which is not so exotic and quite basic everything is just sounding right.
At the moment I am going through a period in which I am really happy with my sounds I am not sure if this is psychological or is it just having the whole synergy of the system right
I think that's a really important consideration in building a truly musically rewarding system and not enough people pay serious enough attention to it, IMO.
A collection of disparate 'bargain' boxes bought on Ebay is unlikely to create a synergistically-matched system; carefully considered and partnered equipment and ancillaries thoroughly auditioned beforehand is...
Unfortunately everyone wants a 'quick fix' and doesn't have the patience or dedication necessary for 'the long game'.
Marco.
promachos
13-02-2009, 11:05
Unfortunately everyone wants a 'quick fix' and doesn't have the patience or dedication necessary for 'the long game'.
Marco.
Really ??
Sorry, I should have said 'most' people. It's certainly the evidence I often see displayed :)
We tend to be quite the opposite here on AOS.
Marco.
Well I'm very happy with my ancient inherited system and feel it would cost a small fortune to significantly better it in any way. I certainly don't like having to turn the music off and do something else at the moment.
So I gather, Dave. I believe that you've developed a love affair with some Crowns? :)
Marco.
P.S Word on the grapevine (from a reliable source) tells me that Glenn is just about ready to introduce his new range of equipment to the market :cool:
The Grand Wazoo
05-03-2012, 00:28
From The Grave
WOStantonCS100
05-03-2012, 08:50
I started building for very basic reasons. I was tired of replacing/re-buying chain store crap that didn't last much longer than a few years. I did not want to pay exorbitant prices for (anything really, including) high-end gear; especially, if it was not worthy of it's asking price. I wanted gear that sounded awesome. I wanted gear that I could fix if it broke; gear that was fixable and not throw away; gear that most likely wouldn't need fixing (just periodic maintenance). That was the beginning of the journey.
I live by the "measure twice, cut once" rule. I spend copious amounts of time researching before I ever undertake a project/build. Because, when the project/build is complete, I really do not want to revisit it. I don't want to have to hunt down a cold solder joint. It should turn on. The voltages should be within range. And, the gear should do it's thing, so I can listen to the music. Endless tweaking holds no appeal for me. Case in point, the upgrades for my Bottlehead gear have remained in the box since I got them, almost two years now. They sound great stock. I'm in no hurry. Eventually, maybe.
I used the same approach on the 1500MK2 re-plinth project. I spent weeks just thinking about it. I spent a few more weeks measuring and re-measuring and plugging those measurements into CAD and then rechecking. The last thing I wanted was to get the plinth home from the CNC shop and have it not be right! It was right. So... done. I may get some BDR cones for it at some point; but, that's about it.
I'm not saying I never upgrade; but, I apply the same principle. Copious research. Apply the upgrade. Be done. Listen to music. I purposefully do not clutter my schedule with projects; because, that leaves me little time for critical music listening enjoyment. That would be a big problem. Spending so much money on tweaks that there is little left to by boat loads of vinyl would also be a huge problem. My musical enjoyment does not come from listening to music in the background while working on gear. In fact, the only problem I have now, is spending too much time on the internet and not enough time with the cans on, eyes closed. :lol:
Talking to people yesterday at the Scalford show, it was very clear to me that music came first. There was clear enjoyment of the tracks played, discussion of singers, groups and musical styles and I was pleased to hear classical demo'd as well as modern. Whether a large or small budget was available, everyone was trying to get the best sound for their pound of expense.
I think perhaps the cliche of a rich bloke with his £100k bijou system and a collection of 10 discs is overstated?
I've got to be really honest and say I love the kit almost as much as the music. Wouldnt choose to be without either. Not for a second.
My life, my hobby, my rules. Dont give a flying one what anyone else thinks of my priorities.
Dominic Harper
05-03-2012, 12:35
Someone said to me the other day that when you get into hif, you are forever chopping and changing. My point was that if you buy something but then 6 months down the line, you see and hear something that sound different, you want to change it. Why can't just be happy with what you have got. Their point was, that hifi is all about change, tinkering, fiddling and upgrading or just swapping things about to what you can get out of your hifi. Thats what hifi is, as this is a hobby for a lot of people. I agree with what they said and took their point on board as this is why people get into hifi in the first place. But it doesn't stop me getting a little fed up when I am happily listeing to something and Dom comes along and starts tweeking. Oh the joys of hifi.
Natalie;)
Rare Bird
05-03-2012, 12:41
Natalie
You have to draw a line weither some say it's part of the hobbiy or not, i stopped all that a long time ago, i just rebuild my old stuff, plug - play & forget now..I don't get anymore headaches & my bank account doesnt suffer anymore, & as Alex & Mike proven at the pie show, their cheap systems are apparently better than some very expensive system that have obviously had lots of money injected into them..
Dominic Harper
05-03-2012, 13:33
Hi Andre, tell me about. I am a big believer in costing more doesn't mean better. I have heard some top of the range hifi, arm, cart speaker etc etc. But you would be hard pushed to find something cost more sounding better than something cheaper. I am also a big believer in saving people money. Sometimes, less can be more and vice versa. Thats what I say. Dom is also a big believer in costing more doesn't necessarily mean better. You have to trust your own hearing for the sound that is coming from your hifi. Dom's a tinkerer because he is constantly testing carts repairs or upgrades. I shouldn't moan really because I get to hear a variety of hifi stuff. Recently, Dom serviced an L75 for a customer who has just got back into his vinyl, for the money and what he has paid, the lenco sounded superb.
Natalie;)
To quote the Beach Boys:
'Reality is not for me
And it makes me laugh'
For me, the Hi-Fi is a hobby and nothing more (all be it one that's been with me for 36 years) but music is just an integral part of who I am and I couldn't live without it.
The tinkering aspect will always be there, but it's not very strong with me at the moment. For instance, I've got a couple of cartridges that I want to try (a Stanton 681eee and a Shure M75 ED), but just can't be bothered at the moment of going through the whole rigmarole of swapping, aligning, VTA etc. etc. as I'd rather spend the limited amount of free time I have listening to music (and my Nagaoka MP11 sounds just fine anyway).
Dominic Harper
05-03-2012, 15:40
Sometimes it's just really nice to sit down and have a good listen to some great music. Just a little point I want to make and please dont all shoot me down. I asked a question on here a couple of weeks ago asking why do hifi enthusiasts/diyrs/hobbiest need have so many different things like various carts etc. Now if some of you guys are saying that you just enjoy listening to the music, then you obviously don't need a variety of different pieces of equipment, because you are obviously happy with your system as it is and have no reason to change anything. So why do people have so many diffrent pieces? Gotcha:lol:
Don't get me wrong. I like the idea that you can swap and change things about. I also enjoy listening to various sounds from different equipment. But if everyone or most people are saying that they just enjoy listening and don't bother tinkering, then why have something you are not going to use. I will tell you why, because you hifi buffs love having bits and pieces, you just enjoy having your items just incase you fancy changing and tinkering.
Natalie;)
Some of us enjoy changing cartridges, whereas for others, it's dressing gowns :D
Marco.
Sometimes it's just really nice to sit down and have a good listen to some great music. Just a little point I want to make and please dont all shoot me down. I asked a question on here a couple of weeks ago asking why do hifi enthusiasts/diyrs/hobbiest need have so many different things like various carts etc. Now if some of you guys are saying that you just enjoy listening to the music, then you obviously don't need a variety of different pieces of equipment, because you are obviously happy with your system as it is and have no reason to change anything. So why do people have so many diffrent pieces? Gotcha:lol:
Don't get me wrong. I like the idea that you can swap and change things about. I also enjoy listening to various sounds from different equipment. But if everyone or most people are saying that they just enjoy listening and don't bother tinkering, then why have something you are not going to use. I will tell you why, because you hifi buffs love having bits and pieces, you just enjoy having your items just incase you fancy changing and tinkering.
Natalie;)
because it's a thinly veiled quest to once more experience that idealistic and blissful union with the maternal figure. :)
you just enjoy having your items just incase you fancy changing and tinkering.
Natalie;)
Absolutely! I have umpteen CD players and Dacs. But that didn't stop me buying a Marantz CD63 at the last Tonbridge Audio Jumble :lol:
Looked like it had gone 10 rounds with David Haye!.....But......I knew there was 1500 page thread on Diyaudio for mods to it.
A quick re-spray and lots of cheap (yes really) internal mods and now of course it is the best CD player I have.......until.......
WOStantonCS100
05-03-2012, 22:28
Sometimes it's just really nice to sit down and have a good listen to some great music. Just a little point I want to make and please dont all shoot me down. I asked a question on here a couple of weeks ago asking why do hifi enthusiasts/diyrs/hobbiest need have so many different things like various carts etc. Now if some of you guys are saying that you just enjoy listening to the music, then you obviously don't need a variety of different pieces of equipment, because you are obviously happy with your system as it is and have no reason to change anything. So why do people have so many diffrent pieces? Gotcha:lol:
Don't get me wrong. I like the idea that you can swap and change things about. I also enjoy listening to various sounds from different equipment. But if everyone or most people are saying that they just enjoy listening and don't bother tinkering, then why have something you are not going to use. I will tell you why, because you hifi buffs love having bits and pieces, you just enjoy having your items just incase you fancy changing and tinkering.
Natalie;)
It's in the aproach. On cartridges, yes, I have several; but... even on the T3 arm, I ordered a bayonet. That means cartridge swaps take all of 2 minutes from start to finish. So, there's not a lot of time involved in that "tweak". I'm back to listening to music in no time. Why do it? The answer to that lies in the fact that not all masters were recorded the same, not all vinyl pressings were created the same (microgroove, mono, "normal modern stereo", hotly pressed 2lp sets and/or 12" singles, not to mention 78's). If one gets to know his/her carts well, there's not a lot of guess work. One pretty much knows which cartridge is best suited for the task.
I look at tube rolling the same way. It's a 2 minute tweak (preamp tubes). I knew the EH 12au7's weren't giving me all I wanted and knew the general character of JAN's I had. I rolled them in. It's been two years now. So, I agree. Some of us do tend to have a lot of "stuff" hanging about; but, that doesn't necessarily mean that tweaking needs to be or has to be relentlessly on going. I can only speak for myself, though.
I would hate to be without options. I would equally hate for those options to control me, hinder me or paralyze me. It has gotten easier to find that balance the older I've become.
Dominic Harper
06-03-2012, 00:31
Some of us enjoy changing cartridges, whereas for others, it's dressing gowns :D
Marco.
Fathead lololololololol.
I like listening to different types of equipment. I don't tinker because I don't really know the first thing about changing a cart or changing tubes. But I do know what I like the sound of and when I like the sound of something. I mean it's true you do have to change things around and have a listen to different stuff. I love looking at the different carts we get coming and the variety of turntables, arms etc. I guess we are lucky in that respect because we get to hear so many different things for example we have a Graham Phantom that is going to be fitted to Clearaudio, and a Kuzma arm that we received today. I haven't heard any of these arms, so in order for me to have a listen, this involves tinkering. So I understand why some people do tinker, and others like to listen to the music.
Just a little off topic, anyone ever heard a Shelter 9000, I heard one for the first time last week, and thought it sounded lovely. That is the first time I have even seen one. Bloody lovely, Dom has also received 3 EMT 948, again something I have never heard or seen before. Now, the EMTs will need some fettling and tinkering because they do need servicing, but I am looking forward to have a listen to one.
My point is that sometimes it's good to tinker, but other times when I am listening to a very enjoyable piece of vinyl and Dom has to check something, I wanna scream lol
Natalie;)
pete_mac
06-03-2012, 01:10
Interesting topic!
I'm a massive music fan, but I also love my equipment - especially the stuff that I've had a role in tweaking or rebuilding/restoring. Just as one experiences an emotional response to good music, I develop an emotional attachment to the gear that I work on, and it heightens my overall enjoyment. This is particularly true of the vintage amps that I restore and modify. Personally I wouldn't experience the same pleasure by purchasing standard gear off-the-shelf - no character, no soul. It doesn't evoke the same emotional response in me.
All of the above is IMHO of course... each to their own, horses for courses etc. :)
Just a little off topic, anyone ever heard a Shelter 9000, I heard one for the first time last week, and thought it sounded lovely. That is the first time I have even seen one.
Hi Natalie
If it's like my Shelter 5000 only 'more of', then I guess it must be really superb. I've hankered after upgrading to a 7000 or 9000 but not just yet.
Sometimes it's just really nice to sit down and have a good listen to some great music. Just a little point I want to make and please dont all shoot me down. I asked a question on here a couple of weeks ago asking why do hifi enthusiasts/diyrs/hobbiest need have so many different things like various carts etc. Now if some of you guys are saying that you just enjoy listening to the music, then you obviously don't need a variety of different pieces of equipment, because you are obviously happy with your system as it is and have no reason to change anything. So why do people have so many diffrent pieces? Gotcha:lol:
Don't get me wrong. I like the idea that you can swap and change things about. I also enjoy listening to various sounds from different equipment. But if everyone or most people are saying that they just enjoy listening and don't bother tinkering, then why have something you are not going to use. I will tell you why, because you hifi buffs love having bits and pieces, you just enjoy having your items just incase you fancy changing and tinkering.
Natalie;)
I think one needs to look at the tinkering and collecting from a different angel Natalie. Think more of boys, toys and peers. :)
Men tend to define who they are and their position in peer groups by what they possess and in this respect boys don’t really grow up.
There will be those who always want the newest toy, or those who have a few models of what to a casual observer look to be pretty much the same, only to be told that such and such a model is series E while the other is B etc.
Some boys take their toys to pieces while others put them on shelves still in their boxes. Some men grow out of this to a greater extent than others. Some men do eventually come to realise that possessions don’t define who they are, sometimes when life strips the material away, sometimes through a growth in confidence.
Perhaps learn to smile sweetly and say “yes dear, that’s very nice” and get on with the important things in life and just accept that in some respects little boys just don’t grow up.
Maybe you do this already. ;)
morris_minor
06-03-2012, 11:30
Men tend to define who they are and their position in peer groups by what they possess and in this respect boys don’t really grow up.
I agree totally with this John. In my formative hi-fi years (the 70s) I knew hardly anyone with "good" hi-fi, but avidly read the Hi-fi press (rags that they were) to find out what to aspire to. (This is of course a time waaay before the internet :rolleyes:). Little did I know what a hatchet job they were doing on Japanese gear - and some British manufacturers who didn't fit in - in their mostly uncritical promotion of, er, cough, "certain brands". Brand snobbery at its most blatant IMO.
The internet's opened up the floodgates of information and opinions, but I think there is still a tendency for folk to go with the flow. Anyone alighting on AoS will soon get the impression that modded 1210s are "the" way to go. And before you all pipe up - I KNOW that's not how it is, but it would be easy to form that impression. Not that I've gone with that particular flow, though my first good TT was a Technics - an SL7, new in 1980.
I've spent time on a number of forums - most get my back up within a month and I never revisit them, and the fact that this hasn't happened with AoS is a testimony to it's fair-mindedness (when discussing hi-fi). However I think the fact we all post here shows we have an interest in kit, of whatever flavour. I would like to think though, that ultimately, it's the music that counts for all of us.
If the house caught fire, I would grab the wife and kids and tell them to grab an armful of vinyl on the way out (not too sure how that would go down) while I rescue a NAS drive. The music's important, the kit's not.
Oh dear, I wish I could say it was all about the music for me when it comes to Hi Fi. :doh:
My Hi Fi doesn’t do music, it makes a lovely sound, but music....well, it plays a recording and that is a far cry from what music means to me.
I don’t understand this emotional connection with recordings, its a bit like having an emotional connection with a photograph of your wife or kids. I think there is something seriously wrong with people who find emotional satisfaction in recorded music. Recorded music doesn’t even provide a soundtrack to my life, barring perhaps some of the recordings I have from when my friends and i used to organise gigs.
The last time I checked I had memories and the important ones are burnt in deeper than any vinyl cut, or optical drive, or picture can manage.
I’ve done without all the “stuff” before and strangely I didn’t disappear or feel any less adequate; much the opposite in fact.
My interest in stereo systems is to do with the reproduction of sound and more recently the computer side of this. I guess I was and still am one of those “took it to bits to see how it works kids”.
If I want to hear music i either play some, or go to a live venue. It doesn’t matter how well recorded something is, 90% of the music just isn’t there; you need people, space, reality......
It certainly reads well when people write its all about the music for them, but frankly, all the other stuff they write leads me to believe otherwise.
Take the recent show; that was all about music then? Erm, I rather think not. More about equipment and people trying to make friends and impress others with their toys.
I don’t have a problem with it, It’s just not for me, I’m not really interested in what others have and I certainly don’t want to meet most of the AoS contributors. I have enough problems being polite to many online, never mind face to face. :D
I have music playing pretty much all the time I’m at home, but its background tunes and when I do sit and listen intently, I’m listening to the reproduction, ie the equipment.
I listen to music when I play, or go dancing, or attend one of the mainly small venues I get to these days.
All my kit can be replaced as can the recordings. Most of the music I like to listen to isn’t of any notable merit and as file data has no intrinsic value thankfully.
So, I’m probably one those soulless DIY types Marco wrote about in the OP. I’m interested in sound when it comes to Hi Fi; music is something else, somewhere else, belonging to real people in real environments with real emotions.
I don't even know how to respond to that except to say that my approach is different.
As much of my conversation at the show was about music as was about the hardware.
As for playing music as background, I don't do that. I put music on to listen to, not perform any other task in parallel with. If I can't concentrate on it, I have a quiet house.
Music inherently links to the emotions: it's art after all. I can't really separate the enjoyment of listening from the emotions it generates within me.
Indeed - a most depressing post, John - and one which contains sentiments completely at odds with both my own values and also those at the heart of the AoS ethos.
As for peer groups, I'm completely immune to them in my adult life. Like I've said before, I've always been more of a leader than a follower!
Marco.
ursus262
06-03-2012, 17:16
As for peer groups, I'm completely immune to them in my adult life. Like I've said before, I've always been more of a leader than a follower! = Bossy! :lol:
ursus262
06-03-2012, 17:26
I look at Welder's post above, and it reminds me of a post I put up recently about valve amps, as I'm considering buying a valve power amp.
Well, my five-fingered friend from Tring suggested that my Naim Uniti was a cheap pc in very expensive clothing (for which he apologised, I must say) and it did set me thinking.
I love music: I sing in a choir and my partner is a musician who plays the mellotron, so we are a musical house. My hi-fi is a conduit and through experience, I have moved from being an objectivist into choosing components that I actually like the sound of! I'm not interested in having something that looks blingy or anything like that; I just want something that entertains and moves me. I think there is an element of snobbery in our community, I think, where music is secondary in importance.
I think there is something seriously wrong with people who find emotional satisfaction in recorded music.
Well there is clearly something seriously wrong with me then :scratch:
John, doesn't any sort of music move you to tears at times?
= Bossy! :lol:
Lol, perhaps in some ways, but I've always been more considerate than bossy.
I'm just a very confident and secure-minded person, who isn't easily led or influenced by the actions of others. I've always done my own thing :)
Marco.
Indeed - a most depressing post, John - and one which contains sentiments completely at odds with both my own values and also those at the heart of the AoS ethos.
As for peer groups, I'm completely immune to them in my adult life. Like I've said before, I've always been more of a leader than a follower!
Marco.
I’m not quite sure why you should find my post depressing Marco. :scratch:
It’s not as if I don’t like music. I play three to four times a week with others, go to hear live music once a week on average, go dancing when i can which is a very important part of music in our and every other culture.
I would if I could cope with the reproduction shortfalls listen to classical music at home but I find just listening to a recording a bit hollow and unsatisfactory when it comes to classical music in particular.
So I’ve been honest and written that my main interest in Hi Fi is the mechanism of sound reproduction; I can’t see what’s depressing or even anti AoS ethos with that. I can hardly be held at fault for finding it difficult to make an emotional connection with a recording surly?
I’ve been interested in audio since working with military communications equipment when I was an engineer and it’s developed from there. naturally enough this has given me a slightly objective view; not much point in telling a pilot it sounds nice to my ears if he cant understand a word you’ve transmitted.
Music should imo be a live social experience. It’s only fairly recently that music became something that gets listened to by a solitary individual on special equipment. When I go to visit my relatives in Spain and Italy, one of the great things is most of them also play instruments and meet at each others houses or in their local villages and play, sometimes to an audience of strangers sometimes just to friends.
I love music; I’m just not quite so enamoured of this Hi Fi, at home in a special room, mainly solitary business. I’m not sure that makes me any weirder than the solitary man in a room making an emotional connection with a recording and a lot of expensive equipment tbh.
It’s interesting how we all see ourselves.
Well there is clearly something seriously wrong with me then :scratch:
John, doesn't any sort of music move you to tears at times?
Not the stuff I listen to on my stereo Tim. :lol:
At home I mostly listen to pop and funk; I like the pop and at my level of musical accomplishment I can get away with parping along in a band playing funk.
I like a beat mate, happy dancing music if you will.
Take me to a live performance of Verdi's requiem somewhere and you may see a small tear trickle down my cheek.
Not the stuff I listen to on my stereo Tim. :lol:
At home I mostly listen to pop and funk; I like the pop and at my level of musical accomplishment I can get away with parping along in a band playing funk.
I like a beat mate, happy dancing music if you will.
Take me to a live performance of Verdi's requiem somewhere and you may see a small tear trickle down my cheek.
Like any trance john?:)
jon
I don't even know how to respond to that except to say that my approach is different.
As much of my conversation at the show was about music as was about the hardware.
As for playing music as background, I don't do that. I put music on to listen to, not perform any other task in parallel with. If I can't concentrate on it, I have a quiet house.
Music inherently links to the emotions: it's art after all. I can't really separate the enjoyment of listening from the emotions it generates within me.
So those posts you made about listening to music while you're driving to and from work are to be completely disregarded then Martin?
There's one simple test. Do you like The Beatles? Anyone who answers 'no' is clearly only pretending to enjoy music. There's clearly something seriously wrong with such people.
Me, I'm happy to admit to feeling emotionally connected to music via whatever medium's available; even a transistor radio will do if the music is right (plus, that's how I discovered much of my favourite music in the first place). I don't list all the various bobbins in my system, because I find that sort of minutiae fairly dull, and I don't have anything customised, 'breathed upon' or tweaked. I have two systems; one valve-based, one solid state, so I'm not dogmatic about that issue either.
WOStantonCS100
06-03-2012, 19:22
If the house caught fire, I would grab the wife and kids and tell them to grab an armful of vinyl on the way out (not too sure how that would go down) while I rescue a NAS drive. The music's important, the kit's not.
That's a great way to boil down what's really important. For indeed, getting the family out of the house would be first. Afterwards, if there was time, I would get as much vinyl out of the house as possible... not, any of the gear. That would be the least of my concerns.
realysm42
06-03-2012, 20:11
How did I choose my current system? I did a bit of research online and picked all the award winning equipment.
How did I pick my previous amp to the one I own now? I walked into Richer sounds, looked for the one with most channels and watts and bought it.
I'd say I'm pretty open minded, I do have some preconceptions about things, if I was proven wrong, I'd be upset for about two minutes (I like knowing it all) and then be happy to have learnt and use my new knowledge to futher my enjoyment.
Oh and I've only read the first three pages of this thread, but I don't think there's any right or wrong with people enjoying the more techinical side of the hobby, if they're more about sound reproduction than music, I wouldn't judge them, it's whatever makes you happy.
So those posts you made about listening to music while you're driving to and from work are to be completely disregarded then Martin?
No, although I did wonder whether you'd pick me up on that. Even in the car, if I play music it's loud and I'm listening to it as much as is possible while driving. Yes I know that's performing another task, but on my daily commute my mind pretty much does it on automatic and I can really appreciate music to a good degree. I treat it a bit like Spotify - getting to know music better in order to decide what to play at home.
When I'm not in the mood I put Radio 4 on instead, rather than quiet music.
So, not quite so straightforward after all.
Yet, when I write I require a higher standard than stereo reproduction can give to feel emotionally connected to a performance it seems I’m odd in some way. :scratch:
Well, we all have different standards.
My stereo is fine for what I listen to which isn’t going to go down in history as great music and tbh really doesn’t require any great concentration to appreciate. A few repetitive chords, a bit of distortion and a beat is hardly a challenge to the average brain to process.
Of course, anyone is entitled to write "well listen to some decent music then", but I rather enjoy the crap I listen to partly because it doesn’t require any intellectual effort, or intense concentration to appreciate.
If others find that the average popular music track stretches their ability to assimilate the information to the extent that they have to sit still in front of their stereo to fully appreciate it then what can I tell you.
The thread was about confronting realities.
Dominic Harper
06-03-2012, 21:39
I like listening to music and I enjoy listening to various equipment. I have heard a lot of music that has moved me emotionally. I do sit in the middle of the floor sometimes if I feel I have heard a piece of music far better with a piece of different equipment. I am a bit of an oddball and if I cannot get the full range of some music I have listened to in the past, you can bet your bottom dollar that I will be able to hear the difference. I also think that there is something quite endearing about putting a piece of vinyl on. I think that it is about both the system used and the music you listen to. I say if you like the band or artist, sit back and listen. Once you have had a good listen, then have a tinker. This is just my humble opinion of course:)
Natalie;)
I have pals who are musicians and their point of view is pretty similar to John Welder's - to them music is an active partcipation thing - either they are playing a gig or attending a gig, they have music systems but nothing fancy and they are mainly for background music. Sitting in a room listening to someone elses's recording - it just doesn't do it for them.
As far as listening to music whilst driving - a friend of mine had to stop doing that becasue it made him drive too fast aand he got a ticket. He is a bit of a boffin so he took to listening to recordings of particle physics lectures instead. He had to stop this as well when he nearly had an accident - he was
concentrating so hard to understand the lecture it was affecting his ability to drive.
Now he just listens to talking books _ I think he's been through Lord of the Rings fifteen times :lol:
WOStantonCS100
06-03-2012, 22:51
I've been a musician for 30 years. Even in semi-retirement, some how I'm still playing, at least, once a week. Performance is great. Being a spectator at, hopefully, a great venue where the guy next to you isn't drunk, is also great. Likewise, sitting in one's listening room, ingesting and losing oneself in a piece of prerecorded music played back through great sounding gear is also great and many times, all around, more aurally pleasing than a live performance for both the performer and the attendee. We're comparing apples and oranges. They aren't the same; nor, should they be judged likewise. None can be guaranteed to be a "better" experience than the other. There are different objectives involved.
I would agree with the aurally more pleasing bit. ;)
The OP however was generally about why people are really interested in Hi Fi.
I seem to have caused some consternation by writing that my real interest in Hi Fi is more to do with the mechanism of stereo recording replay than music.
I do music in other ways. Hi Fi is a hobby I could easily live without. Music is something different.
This doesn't mean I cant appreciate listening to a recording on a decent playback system.
It then got onto emotional involvement, and like I tried to illustrate with the picture of wife and offspring analogy, I don't get off emotionally on recordings, or pictures; there is no feedback loop, any emotion with regard to pictures and recordings is what the listener or viewer projects.
WOStantonCS100
06-03-2012, 23:47
I would agree with the aurally more pleasing bit. ;)
You know what I'm talking about, obviously. :lol:
The OP however was generally about why people are really interested in Hi Fi.
I seem to have caused some consternation by writing that my real interest in Hi Fi is more to do with the mechanism of stereo recording replay than music.
I can totally understand that.
I do music in other ways. Hi Fi is a hobby I could easily live without. Music is something different.
I can understand that, too. I can live without great gear, although I hope I don't ever have to, been there done that. But, what I can't do without is the music.
This doesn't mean I cant appreciate listening to a recording on a decent playback system.
It then got onto emotional involvement, and like I tried to illustrate with the picture of wife and offspring analogy, I don't get off emotionally on recordings, or pictures; there is no feedback loop, any emotion with regard to pictures and recordings is what the listener or viewer projects.
I understand that, too, with the caveat that so many composer's from the great classical composers to Jimi Hendrix often created music in solitude. I'm not dismissing the "jam session" or "collaborative writing session"; but, much music is birthed from a singular experience which also has no feedback loop other than with the composer him/herself, yet as with the person who ingests music alone in their listening room, there is still emotion present perhaps even a more genuine kind of emotion because it is not influenced by the emotion of others. In a sense, it's a truer outpouring for the composer and/or response from the listener.
I'll have to think about that last bit Biff. :scratch:
I'll have to think about that last bit Biff. :scratch:
Yes, that was pretty deep Biff :)
Before I forget and appear even ruder than I actually am. :D
John (Jon1)
I’m not sure what trance music is tbh. I’m not particularly selective about what I will or wont listen to. One of the plus points of AoS is I’ve discovered music that I probably wouldn’t have otherwise. Best pick yer best trance an I’ll let you know.
Martin (realysm 42)
I have stated a few times here on AoS that it is the quality of audio reproduction that interests me regarding Hi Fi. One might have thought this was a laudable pursuit on an audiophile forum.
Joe.
Yep, I like the Beatles. I think I’ve got most of their output. Am I saved?
Macca.
Let me know when you've worked that one out mate. ;)
There's one simple test. Do you like The Beatles? Anyone who answers 'no' is clearly only pretending to enjoy music. There's clearly something seriously wrong with such people.
I don't much care for the Beatles. My Dad was always a Stones Man and brought me up the same way.
jandl100
07-03-2012, 07:36
My Hi Fi doesn’t do music, it makes a lovely sound, but music....well, it plays a recording and that is a far cry from what music means to me.
:scratch:
I don't even know how to respond to that except to say that my approach is different.
Err ... yep, that sums it up for me, too, Martin! :)
____
Back to the OP ....
I have several hobbies.
One of them is music. One of them is hifi.
Happily, they are mutually supportive.
Yep, I like the Beatles. I think I’ve got most of their output. Am I saved?
Of course. The Beatles are far more important than any Ethos.
Dominic Harper
07-03-2012, 09:37
I have always thought the beatles were a little overrated. I think John Lennon on the other hand was a fantastic musician, but I'm more of a Techno Jungle acidhouse jazz person my self:lol:
Natalie;)
I'am guessing we are all into the hi fi far to much or we would be on a music only forum.
I dont understand and more importantly don't care about measurements.
If it sounds good i like it.
realysm42
07-03-2012, 18:23
I have always thought the beatles were a little overrated. I think John Lennon on the other hand was a fantastic musician, but I'm more of a Techno Jungle acidhouse jazz person my self:lol:
Natalie;)
:yesbruv::yay:
I'am guessing we are all into the hi fi far to much or we would be on a music only forum.
I don't understand the logic there. You can love music AND want to hear it at its best. Here we can talk about the music and the technology to make it sound wonderful.
There's no need really to separate the two pursuits.
jandl100
07-03-2012, 18:53
Yes, I'm with Martin on this - I love music, so why shouldn't I be interested in how best to reproduce it in my home?
I like to chat about music as well - hence my request to start up an AOS classical spinning today thread. :)
Of course you can love both and don't we all want the best from our music.
But most of us logging into hifi forums to do that is not needed.
How many tens of thousands of folk out there with great systems don't need to use forums all the time?
realysm42
07-03-2012, 19:18
Music is a part of life to me, whilst most of the time that means actually listening to it, there's other facets of the gem, talking about it is one of them.
Why not log in and speak to like minded people about it?
This forum's cool because I actually feel inclined to share and discuss with people my questions and discoveries.
How many tens of thousands of folk out there with great systems don't need to use forums all the time?
Interesting question and I don't know the answer to that. Would love to find out, though.
I'am quite happy to admit to loving hifi and music as much as each other.
They are both great hobbies and i've made some really good friends along the way.
realysm42
07-03-2012, 19:23
I agree.
Not so much with the friends bit though lol!
Biff.
I’ve had a bit of think Biff and the answer is no, I don’t agree. ;)
Firstly you’ve presupposed that composing music is an activity that requires emotion; it could equally be an intellectual exercise.
Then there is how music composition is done in real life for the majority of composers. Yep, we’ve prolly all seen films of some dishevelled and impoverished composer emotionally distraught widly penning away but exactly how realistic is that.
More realistic perhaps is the scenario of some person writing a few notes, playing them on an instrument, making a decision,writing a bit more, playing a bit etc etc. Difficult to see how some great outpouring of emotion can be sustained over a long period. Rather there is an intellectualised notion of what the finished article might sound like and perseverance, patience and time produces the result.
I don’t believe for example that Jimi Hendrix composed on paper so in his case at least it was a live performance, not scripted.
It just gets worse once the song is written. Off down the studio. Mike was on the piss the night before and can’t even see straight never mind play. The engineer takes a couple of tracks down from the drummer and bassist. Next day Mike is okay and does his bit. Day after they listen to whats been recorded and dont like it. Start again. Sally the singer gets the hump because the engineer tells her to stop swallowing the mike.
You must have been there....
At the end of the sessions the engineer lashes together the best samples breathes a bag full of effects over the mix and the product gets punted out.
Very hard to see how any emotions except frustration anger and impatience could be transferred to the zeros and ones.
Perhaps for some live recordings the possibility to transfer some emotional content might exist but in all probability its going to be the engineers.
So no, unless you believe in fairies there is no emotional content on a CD or whatever.
That doesn’t mean the music, if you’re lucky enough to get any, can’t engender emotions within the listener but those emotions are nothing to do with the media content and all to do with the listener, maybe old times, a lover, or some other life event. The point is the composer and recording process cant have any idea of what these emotions may be and differnt people may feel different emotions for a particular piece.
So, back to square one mate, the only way is by direct feedback and that means live.
There's one simple test. Do you like The Beatles? Anyone who answers 'no' is clearly only pretending to enjoy music. There's clearly something seriously wrong with such people.
Ahahahaha! Hopefully that was a joke? The most popular beatles stuff that was forced down my throat in school music lessons is the most predictable and boring music I've heard in my life...
Not all of it is like that fortunately - the less popular stuff is good.
Almost by definition, anything that gains massive popularity has to be homogenous enough to appeal to a majority and I'm afraid the majority of people are not musical, are not poets, are not artists and their tastes reflect that. This isn't me being snobby, it's just logical - else we wouldn't have IKEA, DFS or magnolia with fake wood floors.
:yesbruv::yay:
:lol: Where the hell did that emoticon come from??? That's the best!
Of course you can love both and don't we all want the best from our music.
But most of us logging into hifi forums to do that is not needed.
How many tens of thousands of folk out there with great systems don't need to use forums all the time?
I avoided forums some time last year because I was spending so much time typing or reading and NOT listening to music.
I suddenly found I had the time to really enjoy the music much MUCH more!
I like to talk a little about the hobby but not too much about specific equipment because I'm know what I like and my reasons for choosing this or that don't need discussion or approval.. I have an idea, hopefully follow it through and try it out. Might not be the best sound but at least I've tried it out for myself.
Reid Malenfant
07-03-2012, 22:50
:lol: Where the hell did that emoticon come from??? That's the best!
Unfortunately they both came from me :o Not that it matters or I know which one you are refering to :rfl:
Perhaps I'll get back with something more relevant to the subject matter sooner rather than later :scratch: :eyebrows:
What was the OP about? Oh, yeah, being honest about why we're into the hobby.
I love sound.
"music this" "music that"..."blah blah blah". So what?
I love music too and I actually I love music so that I can enjoy music on ANY system! Yes, ANY system...
That's why I don't really understand (more to the point, I can't relate to) why people say it's all about "the music".
If you love the music, then why spend so much time and money choosing gear? Just buy the music, really get into collecting the music, listen to it all the time, go out to hear music, play in bands etc etc.
All the notes and rythyms are all still there on an average hifi and most of my friends who are more into music than I am (in terms of discovering bands and making it and playing gigs, going out, going to festivals, running record shops etc) are more than happy with iPods and Cambridge Audio systems or even playing everything from a basic 1210 into a 32 channel mixer stuck in the middle of their living room :lol: (a real situation some friends had).
People who are into this hifi hobby may well be into music but the reason they want the good system is because, surely, they are into sound. Sound as a sensual experience.
Sound is different to music. BUT music is portrayed better when the sound is better. Sound can still be terrible though and the music still great.
I can understand Welder's point. Music is a human construct. It's a result of human culture as opposed to just a sensation in the ear.
His take on what music is is very much more into the human interaction side. Perhaps it's just semantics; for him what others call music is just sound but his definition of music needs real involvement. I'm sure you'd get that definition say in a tribe, somewhere where recorded music doesn't exist.
So, I am into the sound mostly when it comes to hifi. For example I've just turned off the radio because Tim Key's Poetry show thing (Radio 4 23:00 Weds) is coming on. I want to listen to it later when I can use my snazzy audiophile headphones and listen not only to the comedy but to the odd acoustic they use and the contrast between the reverbed music while he reads the poem close mic'd in a dead room - a very nice effect that sounds great. For the same reasons I love the hitchhikers guide to the galaxy original radio series (it was written for radio and the sounds are all there on purpose) and things like the original Mighty Boosh radio series (again conceived for radio using silly acoustics etc as part of it).
Some things I've got into recently are from sound recordists as you can find on http://www.touchradio.org.uk/ including famous sound recordest Chris Watson (does sound for most big BBC nature programs like Frozen Planet) or more arty, non-musical music like Fennesz.
But, I also love design of equipment and build quality and out-there, breaking the mould designs by quiet unassuming brands of the past who's goals are only about good sound and so end up with products that are expensive because of the small production scale but then which probably go out of business due to lack of marketing and spin.
I also love the finding of unusual gear on the relatively cheap - you won't find me buying new or from a dealer at high price (from a dealer when the've under-priced IMO, of course!) - or by DIY-ing to get the best sound possible for low cost or to overcome the original cost constraints of commercial production.
I think the idea of the person constantly under the bonnet of their car you'll probably find is more of a driving enthusiast than the guy with the string backed gloves who goes out every weekend (linking back the the OP).
Anyone seen Two-lane Blacktop? (http://theselvedgeyard.wordpress.com/2010/06/30/two-lane-blacktop-under-the-hood-of-the-epic-1971-road-flick/) It's a road movie basically pitting the rich guy with the fancy new sports car who has effectively just bought into a driving hobby on a whim, against the kids with no money who are dedicated to improving and tuning their hotrod to outperform the off the shelf products.. That to me is the difference between the hifi tinkerers (and secondhand box swappers) and the those who just spend.. The rich guy has the gear but the kids have the soul.
:clap:
Good lord, I think someone understands me.:eek:
Great film btw.
WOStantonCS100
08-03-2012, 01:43
Biff.
I’ve had a bit of think Biff and the answer is no, I don’t agree. ;)
Firstly you’ve presupposed that composing music is an activity that requires emotion; it could equally be an intellectual exercise.
Then there is how music composition is done in real life for the majority of composers. Yep, we’ve prolly all seen films of some dishevelled and impoverished composer emotionally distraught widly penning away but exactly how realistic is that.
More realistic perhaps is the scenario of some person writing a few notes, playing them on an instrument, making a decision,writing a bit more, playing a bit etc etc. Difficult to see how some great outpouring of emotion can be sustained over a long period. Rather there is an intellectualised notion of what the finished article might sound like and perseverance, patience and time produces the result.
I don’t believe for example that Jimi Hendrix composed on paper so in his case at least it was a live performance, not scripted.
It just gets worse once the song is written. Off down the studio. Mike was on the piss the night before and can’t even see straight never mind play. The engineer takes a couple of tracks down from the drummer and bassist. Next day Mike is okay and does his bit. Day after they listen to whats been recorded and dont like it. Start again. Sally the singer gets the hump because the engineer tells her to stop swallowing the mike.
You must have been there....
At the end of the sessions the engineer lashes together the best samples breathes a bag full of effects over the mix and the product gets punted out.
Very hard to see how any emotions except frustration anger and impatience could be transferred to the zeros and ones.
Perhaps for some live recordings the possibility to transfer some emotional content might exist but in all probability its going to be the engineers.
So no, unless you believe in fairies there is no emotional content on a CD or whatever.
That doesn’t mean the music, if you’re lucky enough to get any, can’t engender emotions within the listener but those emotions are nothing to do with the media content and all to do with the listener, maybe old times, a lover, or some other life event. The point is the composer and recording process cant have any idea of what these emotions may be and differnt people may feel different emotions for a particular piece.
So, back to square one mate, the only way is by direct feedback and that means live.
I don't think we disagree as much as we are looking at opposing sides of the same coin, on this particular topic, my friend. :) You and I have both left the back door open. And, perhaps, it should be left open.
Since music is very mathematical, it would be easy to compose just using mathematical principles. A simple knowledge of intervals and remembrance of what they sound like is really all you need. I myself have written pieces for piano (I'm not a very good pianist) by just sitting down with manuscript paper and having a go at it having no "real world" idea of how it would sound other than that the "theory" would most likely yield something that was harmonious rather than atonal. So, I concede it is quite possible to "produce" music without emotional involvement. However, likewise, playing live is not a guarantee of emotion, either. I've played many gigs where I just didn't care and have seen many other players do the same thing. Basically, we were just there to get paid. It was a job. No emotional involvement, whatsoever; just notes on paper; just notes in the air.
On the other hand, many writers, including myself, write out of... ummm... painful experiences. Take into account as well, that emotion doesn't have to mean breaking down crying or jumping for joy or flashing the horns. :hairmetal: Some prefer to think that real emotion is always this very extroverted type of display. For me, that's not a qualifier of true emotion. Emotions can also run deep; the kind of internalizing that propels someone to order their life or life choices in a certain manner; or in this case, compose a piece of music.
The songwriting process is not always synonymous with the recording process. And, yes, I agree wholeheartedly. The recording process, not to mention dealing with some musicians, producers, hangers-on and/or industry reps, can be an absolute bitch. I've had feelings of wanting to rip peoples heads off and piss down their neck; but... I digress. :lol: But, then, that's an emotion, too, isn't it, which may be reflected in an "angry" guitar solo. ;)
Wow, this really is one of those deep topics. We haven't even touched on the "learned or unlearned" response to hearing certain kinds of music. It reminds me of the old, "D minor is the saddest key", thing. :lol: How and why humans react to certain kinds of music the way they do is good fodder for a thesis and/or doctorate; not that either would really nail it down as the answer to that will always be distinctly attributable to the individual.
Correct me if I'm wrong; but, I think one of your points was the question of emotion as a tangible substance capable of being stored on a physical medium, whether it be CD, tape, vinyl or what have you. And I agree, no one has been successful, at least that I know of, at bottling an emotion and selling it in stores or auctioning it off on fleeceBay. For me to look at it that way would be flat earth thinking. It would require me to look at the issue of "conveying emotion through music" in a one dimensional, no gray area, binary way. It would require me to view music as something other than the transcendent thing I believe it to be. That is something I just can't do based on my belief that I am not just my physical body. There are things outside of my reasoning and rationale, things I don't understand; but, I am okay with my "ignorance", if you will. I can accept that there are ways things work that I may never understand, without denying their existence. The conveyance of feeling and emotion through music, recorded or live, is one such thing.
I do agree with this. I do not feel vinyl is anymore capable of being more emotive than a CD. I do not feel this piece of gear is more emotive than that piece of gear. I am only able to hear more distinctly, the details of a recording depending on the gear. My enjoyment, in terms of the listening experience, increases the more clearly I can hear the details of a recording. It doesn't make me like the song, piece of music, anymore or less. It just means what it means. Recordings played on my gear at home yield more detail than an AM radio broadcast on a cheap radio. No crime in the existence of either one. Vibration is vibration. It can be picked up by the sense of touch/feel. Music, as harmony and melody is perceived via hearing. If we could not hear, would we know what music was? So, the degree to which we can hear, largely determines whether we will be able to recognize vibrations/frequencies as "music". So, the question really isn't, "Do we need gear/hi-fi?" Of course, we do. The question is, "At what point for the individual, is gear good enough to get what we need from it to have the type of enjoyment we desire?" It's no different with instruments and/or the human singing voice. One can make music on a toy and for some that is good enough. For others, it takes Segovia playing a classical guitar built by an artisan of the trade. For some, Bob Dylan is good enough. For others, Leontyne Price.
I wouldn't doubt for a minute that many, honestly, became interested in hi-fi because they were/are music lovers first. I wouldn't doubt that their love of music drives them to want to hear it in all of it's glorious detail and complexity, something that can be best achieved with high quality playback gear. That's valid. It's also valid to be into the gear from a scientific perspective - the sheer art of reproducing recorded sound and not particularly a music lover. Also valid. I certainly don't believe the two are mutually exclusive. While not a requirement, they can be mated.
Dominic Harper
08-03-2012, 01:59
That is a very valid point, I agree with this. Especially when you think about cost of hifi. I am a great believer in, more in money doesn't always mean better in sound. You can spend thousands on the best equipment yet you can spend very little and achieve just as good a sound. Dom, does do a lot of tinkering, he does like to know how things work and what works best for him, but also what he believes sounds better, but by the same token I do like to listen to the music and just enjoy. However, I have noticed significantly in the past that some pieces of music I have heard have sounded different (not necessarily better) than when I have heard the same piece of music with different equipment.
I have heard lots of different equipment in the past, and if I am honest I have to say, that's what got me interested. I also like to know how things work and why they work the way they do. An example is coils on a cartridge, sounds a bit silly but I am interested in how they work. Also the difference in sound from various carts and arms. I think we have all done this at some point, because that is just part of hifi. You do get engrossed in something, particularly if something sounds good and has blown you away from everything you are getting out of the record. Not necessarily in an emotional level, but just shocked because you didn't think that sound would come from that particular cart or arm or turntable etc etc.
I do sit and listen very hard, and if I am truly honest, I'm not listening to the record but the back ground and what I can hear, but once I have heard it a few times, I then listen to the actual record. On occassions when something is really good and I am completely enjoying what I am listening to, I do get emotionally involved in that particular piece of vinyl, but the majority of the time I am listening to what the system can do. Dom does use me at times as his listening board. But to be honest, I listen to music as and when I can, because our business doesn't really allow us to listen to music as we are constantly testing someone elses equipment. But, as I have said there are times when I do listen to something and think this is really nice to listen too.
Anyway, I am still a techno jungle acid house jazz fan and I am sticking to that:lol:
Natalie;)
:yesbruv::yesbruv:
:clap:
Good lord, I think someone understands me.:eek:
Great film btw.
:yesbruv::yesbruv:
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