Valve sound versus solid state...

[anthonyTD]

HI ALL,
it was felt by some that this subject needed to be explored further and explained in more detail, so after thinking about it, and writing a lot, i decided that it would be better to start this thread off with an invitation for you guys to to tell us what amplification your using, ie, valve, or solid state, and what it is about your choice that works for you. hopefully this way it will start the thread off in good spirit, so without further a do lets get things started...:)
anthony,TD...

[Marco]

Dear Mr Matthews,

I've got this rather old 30W Copper valve amp thingy that I found behind my sofa amongst some stale Jaffa cakes and a half-eaten muffin. It sounds rather good though and appears to outperform a pair of 200W solid-state monoblocks I also own. Could you explain what's going on?

Yours in astonishment,

Hilda.

[StanleyB]

I use a power amp fitted with unobtanium V-FETs. Warm and sizeable bottom, solid and round front.

[anthonyTD]

Dear Mr Matthews,

I've got this rather old 30W Copper valve amp thingy that I found behind my sofa amongst some stale Jaffa cakes and a half-eaten muffin. It sounds rather good though and appears to outperform a pair of 200W solid-state monoblocks I also own. Could you explain to me what's going on?

Yours in astonishment,

Hilda.


ok mr scotyital smarty pants,:eyebrows:
here are some of the reasons and observations that are shared by many [including me] for reverting back to valves for audio.

Valve amplifiers be it single ended or push-pull, have long been thought of by many as superior beasts to solid state…whether their use be musical instrument related, or purely for audio replay, but what is it that still makes them more desirable to a growing number of musicians and audiophiles world wide than often the best of what solid state has to offer?

Well, here are some positive reasons. First off, valve designs produce predominantly low order harmonics (which is musically related); while solid state designs generally produce a full range of harmonic distortion, including the objectionable high order harmonics. This is due to a number of factors, including the transformer output of valve designs, and the large amounts of negative (electronic) feedback required in solid state designs, in comparison, valve designs need very little negative feedback, and some good sounding amps don't use any at all!

Circuit design undoubtedly plays an important role, valve circuits are often less complex and laid out differently, therefore It can be argued that simplicity is usually best, as the length and complexity can change the inductance and capacitance of a circuit. A more complex circuit will have a more complex sonic distortion characteristic. Minimalist single ended valve amps for example typically have a dominant very simple harmonic distortion spectrum. Complex modern transistor designs often have low level but extremely complex harmonic distortion spectra.

Another advantage of most valve amplifier designs is the high input impedance typically 100k in modern designs and as much as 1 Meg ohm in classic designs. By contrast, solid state amplifiers may have much lower input impedances, some as low as 20k This implies that it requires more energy to excite the input of a typical transistor amplifier to any given voltage than it does a typical valve amplifier. If sensitivity to small signals is a significant goal, then valve designs will typically outperform transistor designs.

Valve amplifiers in general do not need to use as much negative feedback as transistor amplifiers, and while some will argue [and rightly so in some cases] that the absence of negative feedback slightly increases harmonic distortion, by limiting the amount of negative feedback, it avoids instability, as well as slew rate and bandwidth limitations imposed by dominant-pole compensation in transistor amplifiers.

Valves versus transistors when driven hard distort quite differently, and it is well known and documented that valves clip more softly than transistors therefore allowing higher levels of distortion to be tolerated whilst still being able to portray the complex harmonic structure of for example a musical instrument..
i await your constructive comments.
anthony,TD...

[John]

I used to to think Valve amps were for the wolley jumper and slippers brigrade great mid but no bass and dynamics I went through many Solid state amps and would not even think about a valve amp.
Now I have a SAC Glowmaster it has more controlled bass, dyamics detail and larger soundstage than my old Gamut D200 MK3 but only is rated at 66watts I do not really understand this
Also I read it encourages something called 2nd Harmonics which are very pleasing to the ear; is this artical warmth or ? As the music sounds natural to me

[anthonyTD]

I used to to think Valve amps were for the wolley jumper and slippers brigrade great mid but no bass and dynamics I went through many Solid state amps and would not even think about a valve amp.
Now I have a SAC Glowmaster it has more controlled bass, dyamics detail and larger soundstage than my old Gamut D200 MK3 but only is rated at 66watts I do not really understand this
Also I read it encourages something called 2nd Harmonics which are very pleasing to the ear; is this artical warmth or ? As the music sounds natural to me

hi john,
its good to hear that all the perceived negative traits you mention above about your earlier informed but rather misguided view of valve amplifiers have now been put to rest, the more people i speak with who have recently converted to valves have similar stories to tell, so your far from alone in your experiences.
as for your confusion about the diffrence in percieved power ie, valve amplifiers seemingly having more power than an equaly matched watt for watt solid state amp, well i have my views on that too, but i would rather hold fire and give some of the other guys a chance to give their views on this for the moment.
anthony,TD...

[Primalsea]

Here's an interesting point to think about.

I have found that the earthing scheme of an amp can have a huge impact on the quality of its sound, not just hum and earth loops.

Almost all solid state amps are PCB based, almost all valve amps are hard wired.

A hard wired amp will tend to have much thicker (lower impedance) earth wiring compared to the tracks of a pcb.

[chris@panteg]

I used valve amps for 15 years, and currently have a CA 740 not because i prefer solid state' its just i don't have the finances for a quality valve set up' i got the CA for a bargain price.

I did have a concordant valve pre with Audio Innovations 2nd audio mono(2a3) with border patrol psu's which was just wonderful it just sounded so big and there if you know what i mean, one point i would make regarding valve amps is that some like the 2nd audio's used solid state rectifiers, which caused the amp to sound loose and flabby with complex music' so when looking at valve amps' valve rectified choke smoothing is a must .

[sastusbulbas]

I just want a cheap as chips fully balanced valve pre which will drive two balanced outputs, and a few very powerful fully balanced valve power amps capable of driving difficult loads with lots of output 300w - 600w) and silent operation with 103db speakers, none of that background hiss or hum please, oh and bass must be proper, not that overblown under damped bass which people thinks sounds better.

By cheap as chips I mean comparable in price to a Yamaha E800 processor (silent) driving a brace of Alesis RA-500 bridged amps.

Cheers..

[i_should_coco]

ok mr scotyital smarty pants,:eyebrows:
here are some of the reasons and observations that are shared by many [including me] for reverting back to valves for audio.

Valve amplifiers be it single ended or push-pull, have long been thought of by many as superior beasts to solid state…whether their use be musical instrument related, or purely for audio replay, but what is it that still makes them more desirable to a growing number of musicians and audiophiles world wide than often the best of what solid state has to offer?

Well, here are some positive reasons. First off, valve designs produce predominantly low order harmonics (which is musically related); while solid state designs generally produce a full range of harmonic distortion, including the objectionable high order harmonics. This is due to a number of factors, including the transformer output of valve designs, and the large amounts of negative (electronic) feedback required in solid state designs, in comparison, valve designs need very little negative feedback, and some good sounding amps don't use any at all!

Circuit design undoubtedly plays an important role, valve circuits are often less complex and laid out differently, therefore It can be argued that simplicity is usually best, as the length and complexity can change the inductance and capacitance of a circuit. A more complex circuit will have a more complex sonic distortion characteristic. Minimalist single ended valve amps for example typically have a dominant very simple harmonic distortion spectrum. Complex modern transistor designs often have low level but extremely complex harmonic distortion spectra.

Another advantage of most valve amplifier designs is the high input impedance typically 100k in modern designs and as much as 1 Meg ohm in classic designs. By contrast, solid state amplifiers may have much lower input impedances, some as low as 20k This implies that it requires more energy to excite the input of a typical transistor amplifier to any given voltage than it does a typical valve amplifier. If sensitivity to small signals is a significant goal, then valve designs will typically outperform transistor designs.

Valve amplifiers in general do not need to use as much negative feedback as transistor amplifiers, and while some will argue [and rightly so in some cases] that the absence of negative feedback slightly increases harmonic distortion, by limiting the amount of negative feedback, it avoids instability, as well as slew rate and bandwidth limitations imposed by dominant-pole compensation in transistor amplifiers.

Valves versus transistors when driven hard distort quite differently, and it is well known and documented that valves clip more softly than transistors therefore allowing higher levels of distortion to be tolerated whilst still being able to portray the complex harmonic structure of for example a musical instrument..
i await your constructive comments.
anthony,TD...

I agree with all of the above. :)

My own preference is to start with the most linear amplifying device possible, the triode and build amplifiers around that. That way we need to apply less of a band aid - negative feedback. The poor linearity of transistors means that circuit complexity increases, with feedback being almost mandatory and I believe this is a large factor in the sound.

When I built my 801A amp, as designed it had 2-3dB NFB, but, when I diconnected this sound quality improved. With NFB is sounded very clean and colourless, but without, all the timbre a vitality can back. It wasn't all positive and the bass became somewhat looser, but to me the trade off was well worth it.

I also agree that the spectrum of THD matters a lot as well as the absolute level, with low even order being preferred. Nelson Pass has done some ineteresting work there with the F1 & F2 designs , with one being PP and one being SE, thus having different distortion spectrums and different 'flavours'. I recently heard an F3 and it was very, very good indeed - sweet and grainless, a good alternativer for those who would like a SET, but don't want valves. Mind you, it's still hot and low powered. ;)

Sorry for the brain dump!

[Spectral Morn]

HI Anthony TD


Valve amplifiers be it single ended or push-pull, have long been thought of by many as superior beasts to solid state…whether their use be musical instrument related, or purely for audio replay, but what is it that still makes them more desirable to a growing number of musicians and audiophiles world wide than often the best of what solid state has to offer?

Well, here are some positive reasons. First off, valve designs produce predominantly low order harmonics (which is musically related); while solid state designs generally produce a full range of harmonic distortion, including the objectionable high order harmonics. This is due to a number of factors, including the transformer output of valve designs, and the large amounts of negative (electronic) feedback required in solid state designs, in comparison, valve designs need very little negative feedback, and some good sounding amps don't use any at all!

Circuit design undoubtedly plays an important role, valve circuits are often less complex and laid out differently, therefore It can be argued that simplicity is usually best, as the length and complexity can change the inductance and capacitance of a circuit. A more complex circuit will have a more complex sonic distortion characteristic. Minimalist single ended valve amps for example typically have a dominant very simple harmonic distortion spectrum. Complex modern transistor designs often have low level but extremely complex harmonic distortion spectra.

Another advantage of most valve amplifier designs is the high input impedance typically 100k in modern designs and as much as 1 Meg ohm in classic designs. By contrast, solid state amplifiers may have much lower input impedances, some as low as 20k This implies that it requires more energy to excite the input of a typical transistor amplifier to any given voltage than it does a typical valve amplifier. If sensitivity to small signals is a significant goal, then valve designs will typically outperform transistor designs.

Valve amplifiers in general do not need to use as much negative feedback as transistor amplifiers, and while some will argue [and rightly so in some cases] that the absence of negative feedback slightly increases harmonic distortion, by limiting the amount of negative feedback, it avoids instability, as well as slew rate and bandwidth limitations imposed by dominant-pole compensation in transistor amplifiers.

Valves versus transistors when driven hard distort quite differently, and it is well known and documented that valves clip more softly than transistors therefore allowing higher levels of distortion to be tolerated whilst still being able to portray the complex harmonic structure of for example a musical instrument..

I could not have said it any better....

And there is also ........

http://i549.photobucket.com/albums/ii364/davros124/LondonSept07Hi-FiShowandHomehi-f-15.jpg

http://i549.photobucket.com/albums/ii364/davros124/LondonSept07Hi-FiShowandHomehi-f-10.jpg

EQUATION Sound + Looks = :band: :surf:=NATURAL MUSIC..... and results in :):):):):mex:

Regards D S D L-----Neil :)

[Ali Tait]

I have six amps at the moment,five of which are valve.The sand amp is an old wooden sleeved Sugden a21.Nice little amp,but cannot compete with the valve amps to my ears.I have two PP amps,both WAD kit jobbies-the KEL84 and an original WAD 300b.The single ended amps are a DIY copy of the old WAD 4watt SE,a Mr Liang 845 se and finally an Audioromy 813 se.On my system,the 813 easily sounds the best,probably partly to do witht the fact that my statics need a bit of power,and the 813 outputs a claimed 45 watts.
One thing with valve amps is that not only do you have the valves versus transistors thing,you get a further split with SE and PP.I do own two PP amps,but have to say I ultimately prefer SE.It just seems to have a naturalness and magic that PP cannot equal.I have read in the past that the distortion produced by DHT's in general quite closely matches the distortion characteristics of the human ear,which may explain why many prefer the way such amps sound,making them sound more "real" to human ears.Even Marco was impressed with the 813! The 813 is a directly heated tetrode,and in the amp I have they are wired in triode mode,and it does sound like a DHT in many ways.I've been told that the 813 is Andy Grove's (designer of many Audio Note and WAD amps amongst others) favourite valve and I can see why.Next step for me is to build a copy of Nick Gorham's 211 A2 amp,but using the 813,as if this cheapie chinese amp can sound so good,a proper design with top-rank components and transformers should sound sublime!

[Beechwoods]

Is 'sand' just another term for solid state?

[Ali Tait]

Yes,sorry,it refers to the silicon used in transistors,hence "sand".Just a colloquial expression commonly used by valve amp afficionados.

[anthonyTD]

I have six amps at the moment,five of which are valve.The sand amp is an old wooden sleeved Sugden a21.Nice little amp,but cannot compete with the valve amps to my ears.I have two PP amps,both WAD kit jobbies-the KEL84 and an original WAD 300b.The single ended amps are a DIY copy of the old WAD 4watt SE,a Mr Liang 845 se and finally an Audioromy 813 se.On my system,the 813 easily sounds the best,probably partly to do witht the fact that my statics need a bit of power,and the 813 outputs a claimed 45 watts.
One thing with valve amps is that not only do you have the valves versus transistors thing,you get a further split with SE and PP.I do own two PP amps,but have to say I ultimately prefer SE.It just seems to have a naturalness and magic that PP cannot equal.I have read in the past that the distortion produced by DHT's in general quite closely matches the distortion characteristics of the human ear,which may explain why many prefer the way such amps sound,making them sound more "real" to human ears.Even Marco was impressed with the 813! The 813 is a directly heated tetrode,and in the amp I have they are wired in triode mode,and it does sound like a DHT in many ways.I've been told that the 813 is Andy Grove's (designer of many Audio Note and WAD amps amongst others) favourite valve and I can see why.Next step for me is to build a copy of Nick Gorham's 211 A2 amp,but using the 813,as if this cheapie chinese amp can sound so good,a proper design with top-rank components and transformers should sound sublime!

hi ali,
the diffrence as you quite rightly acknowledged between push-pull and single ended is quite distinct, and one of the reasons put forward for this is, push-pull output stages predominently cancel out even harmonics, and thus can to a degree reduce the natural 2nd and higher even harmonics found in the original music being re-produced, single ended on the other hand does not have this cancelation effect on the even harmonics, and hence they tend to sound more natural to the human ear. but with both technologies there are trade off's and in both the problem of odd harmonics still need to be addressed... feedback is unfortunetly a necesary evil in controling un-wanted harmonics that were not present in the original signal, and also used properly it can and is used for reducing the output impedence of the amp, making it more suitable for controling cone movements of the loudspeaker.
anthony,TD...

[Ali Tait]

Agreed Antony,what you say is quite correct.However it's not an issue for me as I use 'statics.Both the PP amps I have are superb sounding.The KEL84 is a true giant-killer (like Stan's DAC!) and a superbly musical amp.I would say it would walk all over anything commercial up to a couple of grand,possibly quite a lot more,and the 300b PP is a superb amp too,and quite a no-compromise design with intestage transformers etc.
However,subjectively to my ears PP amps often sound muddled and flat in the midrange compared to SE.I can see how many would prefer the generally greater authority in the bass you get from PP(on conventional speakers for the reasons you stated),but that's not a real priority for me.It's that indefinable magic that you only seem to get from a good SE amp that wins my heart every time.Nothing I've heard to date beats it.As I've said before,I use valves because they sound better than anything else.If I came across a sand amp that sounded better,I'd use it.Valves are not the most user friendly things!

[Marco]

It's that indefinable magic that you only seem to get from a good SE amp that wins my heart every time.Nothing I've heard to date beats it.


"To date" is the key phrase there, I feel.

It'll be interesting to see what you make of the Copper amp in my system, Ali (bring your SETs along to compare). The Spendors are valve-friendly. I know exactly what you mean, but to my ears Anthony's Copper amp gives the best of both worlds and thus has quite a beguiling and spell-binding way with all types of music. "All types" is also another key phrase here ;)

One should never say never in hi-fi, and I certainly don't either with SE...

Marco.

[NRG]

.... push-pull output stages predominently cancel out even harmonics, and thus can to a degree reduce the natural 2nd and higher even harmonics found in the original music being re-produced, single ended on the other hand does not have this cancelation effect on the even harmonics, and hence they tend to sound more natural to the human ear....
anthony,TD...

PP output stages self cancel 2nd harmonics generated in the o/p stage only...they don't cancel out 2nd harmonics generated by the input or driver stage...as those harmonics are now part of the signal.

[Beechwoods]

Yes,sorry,it refers to the silicon used in transistors,hence "sand".Just a colloquial expression commonly used by valve amp afficionados.

LOL I figured that was it - but what of germanium transistors ;)

[Mike]

That would be a 'flower amp'... :eyebrows:

[Beechwoods]

Don't go casting nasturtions Mike :lol: :ner:

[Mike]

Ouch! :doh:

[Beechwoods]

It's a bit of a thorny one, I'll give you that ;)

[Ali Tait]

Groan! Marco,trust me,the 813 will play any type of music well.Remember the zep at Owston?

[tfarney]

Ok, here goes...

I have been a guitar player for more than 40 years and I have never owned and would never own a solid state amp. In that endeavor, the attraction is clear: The manner in which valve amps clip is goooood. It even adds to the tactile experience of playing. With a small amp in a medium room, you can get the volume right on the cusp of heavy clipping and actually go from "clean" to "crunch" just by attacking the strings harder. You can take the next step, into creamy, sustained overdrive, with a bit of a boost of the guitar's volume control. Good stuff.

But theoretically, while all of that is wonderful for amping an electric guitar, it is less desireable in hifi, where we don't want pleasing harmonic distortion but no distortion. And, theoretically, the best way to reduce clipping, given good design in the first place, is to increase headroom. This can be done with valves, but two to three hundred watts per channel is an expensive proposition in a valve amp, and if the objective is to eliminate clipping - pleasant or otherwise - what would be the point?

Theoretically.

Fortunately, being primarily a headphone listener, I been able to test the theory at relatively little expense. A few hundred milliwatts, even into the difficult load of my Sennheisers, is a massive amount of headroom. Even at very high listening levels, clipping is not an issue. I've tried a few valve headphone amps through here for testing, and I've been very fortunate in that I've been able to keep them in my house for weeks, rather than listening to them in a store for a few minutes. The last, and one of the best, was 500 milliwatts, all valves, all point to point wired, lovely to look at and listen to. It would drive my Senns beautifully with so little of its volume control engaged, it breathed so easily under the weight of their 300 ohm, legendarily inconsistent load, that I'm as certain as I can be (without ABX testing :)) that it was not clipping. Was there still a touch of audible harmonic distortion in there? I don't know, but there was something. And it was something pleasant. I almost kept that one. But after two weeks of listening to it exclusively, I went back to my headphone reference -- an old (bought new in about '72), dual mono, mosfet Harman Kardon integrated amp with a headphone jack that is just insanely good. I went back and forth and listened to some very well-recorded music I'm very familiar with and there was a difference. To put it all in positive terms, which isn't hard, the valve amp had a sweetness that was very attractive, the old SS had a speed of response and a sense of control that lent an open clarity to the presentation.

But it was a very subtle gap. I would have loved to have kept both, but in the end, I decided that the difference between them was too slight and it wasn't worth the investment, even though it was small. And those were, in my view, ideal conditions for the valves. 30 to 60 watt valve amps driving conventional speakers with conventional efficiency? It has its charms, but I remain unconvinced that it is anything I would describe as superior. Attractive clipping is still clipping. I'd rather keep it away from cymbals, voices, etc.

Then, there is digital amplification....

Tim

[Ali Tait]

Aye but the thing is Tim,Directly-Heated Triodes are the most linear amplifying devices ever constructed by Man.If distortion is the only story,how come a single-ended amp sounds so much better with no feedback than with,when with no feedback distortion is much higher?

[Marco]

Groan! Marco,trust me,the 813 will play any type of music well.Remember the zep at Owston?

Groan? LOL! Ali, I was referring to low-powered SET amps and small speakers, which I find somewhat restrictive - you've got neither, in fact your amp has got serious balls! :eyebrows:

Marco.

[Ali Tait]

:lolsign: The groan was for the terrible puns in the previous few posts!

[Marco]

Ah, oi sees... :eyebrows:

I shall get my teeth more into this rather intriguing discussion later, particularly Tim's last post ;)

Marco.

[anthonyTD]

Ok, here goes...

I have been a guitar player for more than 40 years and I have never owned and would never own a solid state amp. In that endeavor, the attraction is clear: The manner in which valve amps clip is goooood. It even adds to the tactile experience of playing. With a small amp in a medium room, you can get the volume right on the cusp of heavy clipping and actually go from "clean" to "crunch" just by attacking the strings harder. You can take the next step, into creamy, sustained overdrive, with a bit of a boost of the guitar's volume control. Good stuff.

But theoretically, while all of that is wonderful for amping an electric guitar, it is less desireable in hifi, where we don't want pleasing harmonic distortion but no distortion. And, theoretically, the best way to reduce clipping, given good design in the first place, is to increase headroom. This can be done with valves, but two to three hundred watts per channel is an expensive proposition in a valve amp, and if the objective is to eliminate clipping - pleasant or otherwise - what would be the point?

Theoretically.

Fortunately, being primarily a headphone listener, I been able to test the theory at relatively little expense. A few hundred milliwatts, even into the difficult load of my Sennheisers, is a massive amount of headroom. Even at very high listening levels, clipping is not an issue. I've tried a few valve headphone amps through here for testing, and I've been very fortunate in that I've been able to keep them in my house for weeks, rather than listening to them in a store for a few minutes. The last, and one of the best, was 500 milliwatts, all valves, all point to point wired, lovely to look at and listen to. It would drive my Senns beautifully with so little of its volume control engaged, it breathed so easily under the weight of their 300 ohm, legendarily inconsistent load, that I'm as certain as I can be (without ABX testing :)) that it was not clipping. Was there still a touch of audible harmonic distortion in there? I don't know, but there was something. And it was something pleasant. I almost kept that one. But after two weeks of listening to it exclusively, I went back to my headphone reference -- an old (bought new in about '72), dual mono, mosfet Harman Kardon integrated amp with a headphone jack that is just insanely good. I went back and forth and listened to some very well-recorded music I'm very familiar with and there was a difference. To put it all in positive terms, which isn't hard, the valve amp had a sweetness that was very attractive, the old SS had a speed of response and a sense of control that lent an open clarity to the presentation.

But it was a very subtle gap. I would have loved to have kept both, but in the end, I decided that the difference between them was too slight and it wasn't worth the investment, even though it was small. And those were, in my view, ideal conditions for the valves. 30 to 60 watt valve amps driving conventional speakers with conventional efficiency? It has its charms, but I remain unconvinced that it is anything I would describe as superior. Attractive clipping is still clipping. I'd rather keep it away from cymbals, voices, etc.

Then, there is digital amplification....

Tim

hi Tim,
i agree to a point, but the whole reason i started this thread was to get some constructive comments from people who own both valve and solid state amps, it was not as your post seems to indicate meant to just "big up" one technolgy over the other, i have been involved with both types of amp topologies a long time now, and i know that both technologies when done right can sound exceptionaly good, but what i have put forward here is a start concerning some of the main diffrences that people can relate to, i did not and do not condone clipping in any form in hi fi aplications, and i agree, to avoid it in both designs you need a lot of headroom, but with transistor amplifiers the onset of clipping is so brutal that distortion aspects become all to clear instantly, why valve amps win in my opinion on this score is because when they get near to clipping [or maximum dynamic range]they self compress/limit to a degree and therefore the higher order harmonics that would be present in solid state that are objectionable at the onset of clipping are not present...
this i suspect is the reason why most people who have lived with both technolgies find that to get the same percieved power and sound stage that they get from valve amps you would need a solid state amp with a power output of up to ten times higher.:)
anthony,TD...

[tfarney]

Aye but the thing is Tim,Directly-Heated Triodes are the most linear amplifying devices ever constructed by Man.If distortion is the only story,how come a single-ended amp sounds so much better with no feedback than with,when with no feedback distortion is much higher?

I don't think distortion is the only thing, nor do I think that SS is inherently superior. I have discovered though, that for me, when the two are both very well done, the difference is small enough and subjective enough that I wouldn't spend a whole lot more for one over the other.

Tim

[Primalsea]

With valve amps distortion figures generally dont go below 0.1% at normal levels into real loads. I get the impression (maybe Anthony can confirm/deny) that engineers designing valve amps dont waste a lot of time trying to reduce disortion further. However SS amps can go very low - 0.001%. To get such low level a huge amount of time has to be spent.

Is time spent reducing distortion at the expense of other areas??

[anthonyTD]

With valve amps distortion figures generally dont go below 0.1% at normal levels into real loads. I get the impression (maybe Anthony can confirm/deny) that engineers designing valve amps dont waste a lot of time trying to reduce disortion further. However SS amps can go very low - 0.001%. To get such low level a huge amount of time has to be spent.

Is time spent reducing distortion at the expense of other areas??

hi paul,
distortion figures are an inportant factor when designing both valve and solid state, but as discussed it is the type of distortion and its affects on the listener that has to be considered, ie, most conventional solid state designs are of a pushpull nature, hence it is important to try and design out or control any form of distortion to avoid creating the destructive higher order harmonics of which even small amounts are very objectionable. on the other end of the scale for eg a single ended directly heated triode valve amp output stage produces predominantly low order even harmonics, so quite large amounts of this type of distortion can be tolerated [as high as 10%] compared to conventional solid state, hence the need for correcting this type of distortion is much lower, thus the circuit can be designed much simpler and purer.
anthony,TD...

[Haselsh1]

I made the mistake, two years ago, of buying a Chinese 300B single ended amplifier. It sounded absolutely wonderful for a year and a bit. In 1998 I owned a ready built WAD 300B PP amplifier and a KLP1 preamp. It was the finest amplifier I have ever heard. I have heard comparable transistor amplifiers in money terms but not one of them has had anywhere near the 'air' and 'space' of the valve amps. I adore valve amps but have always found that, when I've owned them, for some mysterious reason, I've always been glad to see the back of them. Coming bang up to date... I doubt that I shall ever again be in a position to spend two thousand pounds on an amplifier. In fact, I doubt I shall ever be a position to spend that amount of money on a complete system... I'm working on it though.

[i_should_coco]

hi paul,
distortion figures are an inportant factor when designing both valve and solid state, but as discussed it is the type of distortion and its affects on the listener that has to be considered, ie, most conventional solid state designs are of a pushpull nature, hence it is important to try and design out or control any form of distortion to avoid creating the destructive higher order harmonics of which even small amounts are very objectionable. on the other end of the scale for eg a single ended directly heated triode valve amp output stage produces predominantly low order even harmonics, so quite large amounts of this type of distortion can be tolerated [as high as 10%] compared to conventional solid state, hence the need for corecting this type of distortion is much lower, thus the circuit can be designed much simpler and purer.
anthony,TD...

I think this is one of those cases where the cure (negative feedback) can be worse than the disease (higher levels of distortion). As Anthony states, the low order distortion produced by tubes in generally benign subjectively. Adding feedback will lower the absolute values but increases the complexity of the distortion spectrum leading to subjective consequences.

[Primalsea]

Hi Anthony,

What I was getting at is when you design an amp with already low and acceptable distortion figures do you then go on to bang your head agianst a wall to get it even lower or do you move your attention to other areas that may also have a impact on the sound.

Just wondering if that to some (designers of SS amps) getting lower distortion than your rival become all emcompasing to the point where other important factors are ignored.

[Ali Tait]

Hi Tim,
Agreed that some sand amps sound good,it's just for me none I've heard equal what a good valve amp can do.To my ears,even a mediocre valve amp sounds better than a good sand amp.

[anthonyTD]

Hi Anthony,

What I was getting at is when you design an amp with already low and acceptable distortion figures do you then go on to bang your head agianst a wall to get it even lower or do you move your attention to other areas that may also have a impact on the sound.

Just wondering if that to some (designers of SS amps) getting lower distortion than your rival become all emcompasing to the point where other important factors are ignored.

hi paul,
i see, well as the post above explains [i should coco] once you reach a level that is exceptable,[we are all diffrent] there are other areas that would benefit more from a designers point of view, ie power supplies, circuit layout. to get the lowest posible natural noise floor from a specific circuit [ie without using feedback to artifically lower it] can be equally as important as ultra low distortion figures.
anthony,TD...

[sastusbulbas]

So what decent and afordable valve amp with a reasonable power output will give silent operation when no music is playing into a pair of 103db sensitivity speakers?

And furthermore will it be flat in frequency response from below 20hz upwards?

[anthonyTD]

So what decent and afordable valve amp with a reasonable power output will give silent operation when no music is playing into a pair of 103db sensitivity speakers?

And furthermore will it be flat in frequency response from below 20hz upwards?
hi steve,
thats easy, my soul amplifiers, well they have two out of the three above, affordable well, thats down to the individuals acceptance of the term!
anthony,TD...

[Marco]

Steve,

Chat to Anthony with the budget you have in mind (as long as it's viable) and I'm sure he'll come up with a design that will shock and stun you ;)

Marco.

[Marco]

hi steve,
thats easy, my soul amplifiers, well they have two out of the three above, affordable well, thats down to the individuals acceptance of the term!
anthony,TD...

Haha, indeed! :eyebrows:

Would you not design a scaled-down version of your Copper amps (not using a Copper chasis, though) if someone wanted, say something that would sound like the dog's danglies for around a grand or so.

You know that you have 'de technology', massa ;)

Marco.

[sastusbulbas]

Prices and specifications guys? :scratch:

Remember I am poor and have two kids and a wife :(





:lolsign:

Edit,

I do miss certain valve traits, and would like to go down that route, but most valve amps cost way more than SS designs and are noisier and less capable in certain areas such as bass.

[chris@panteg]

Hi Tim,
Agreed that some sand amps sound good,it's just for me none I've heard equal what a good valve amp can do.To my ears,even a mediocre valve amp sounds better than a good sand amp.

i would beg to differ , i once tried out a monoblock pair of SET kt88's and it sounded dreadful, it was like listening to MW or SW radio or as dougie dunlop used to say a bag o' nail's .

These amp's were cottage industry type

[Ali Tait]

Do you have a need for a lot of power? Define reasonable.I'd have thought with 103 dB speakers,a watt or two would be more than enough.Only way I think to do it at a reasonable price would be to diy.

[Primalsea]

A second hand World Audio Design KEL84 or one of those little Chinese Yarland EL84 amps would be possible options. ORNEC sold the Yarlands for less than £200 but looks like the company is in the middle of a change over at the mo.

My friend bought 3 and lent them to me for a while so I could use them with my active speakers. They were very good and quiet. The KEL84 is very quiet and a very good amp.

Also dare I say a T-Amp will work well with high sensitivity speakers. They became very popular and then it all died away. They are very good though, I put 3 into a single box for a friend so he could tri amp his Epos ES22's.Not valve I know.

[sastusbulbas]

Do you have a need for a lot of power? Define reasonable.I'd have thought with 103 dB speakers,a watt or two would be more than enough.Only way I think to do it at a reasonable price would be to diy.

The speakers are at the moment used in a room roughly 80ft long by 80ft wide, 150w solid state seems to have problems, though I feel the amp power supply is hindering things, I also have a small 40 watter? which suffers at volume.

At home I have 100 watt Classe power amps, which do well, and have serious toroids which I feel makes a difference in the bass, for example my Technics is silent but 100w per channel, but again bass seems lacking in comparison to the likes of my Krell and Classe. I have contemplated selling the Classe power amps, and trying to get a second hand McIntosh 275 power amp or similar, but have also been thinking of a second Classe for bridging.

My Kef R107 do not get on with valve amps, particularly if I have the LF extension cut of below 20hz, I seem to be able to get usable extension down to 15hz, 10hz being a little subdued, but to sustain any usable output at these extremes I find I need a decent amp, only the bigger Krells and such seem comfortable there, with most others with plain watts without current proving detrimental. And I seem sensitive to any amplifier noise, such as hiss or hum.

I like drums percussion and such, low frequency stuff that stops and starts on a dime, much of it out of phase. I would happily run an active PMC/Bryston BB5 system at home if I had the room and money.

As an example I find my Krell which is giving me around 600w into 4 ohm, with plenty of current, is just about right for teh main system with the Kef, the pre is a KRC 3 which gives lower output than my previous Audio Research valve pre's though, and I can put my volume all the way round for a short period, its quite clean and does not sound as loud as it actually is?

[Marco]

i would beg to differ , i once tried out a monoblock pair of SET kt88's and it sounded dreadful, it was like listening to MW or SW radio or as dougie dunlop used to say a bag o' nail's .

These amp's were cottage industry type

Hi Chris,

Can you be more specific please? We like the naming of names in circumstances like this :)

Cheers!

Marco.

[Ali Tait]

Well if that's the kind of power you need,buying something commercial would be hideously expensive.You could diy or buy this-

http://www.audio-talk.co.uk/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1028&highlight=

[chris@panteg]

Sorry Marco they were i think a diy job by an enthusiast they were not that well made
i don't have a name for them' but my point is that a poor amp be it valve or SS is a poor amp , at the same time i tried a big and beefy EL84 PP amp giving something like a 100 watts again i think it was DIY or cottage industry job but it was fantastic driving a pair of
acoustic energy AE1's in rosewood which i had at the time ,alas the amp was not for sale but it was fun.

[Ali Tait]

Chris,I did say mediocre rather than crap,but I would say that PP kt88 amps are not really my cup of tea either.Much nicer triode connected! :)

[Marco]

I would say that PP kt88 amps are not really my cup of tea either...


HAHA... Aye, I'll remind you of that, wee man, when you've come down and heard the Copper amp in its natural habitat! :lol:

:ner:

Marco.

[anthonyTD]

Chris,I did say mediocre rather than crap,but I would say that PP kt88 amps are not really my cup of tea either.Much nicer triode connected! :)

naa,
KT88's dont make very good triodes, KT66 are much better.:eyebrows:

[chris@panteg]

Marco' regarding AE1's i think they work bloody well with high powered valve PP amps
the guy who run's V Audio in Bristol (ad in hifi world) confirmed this for me.

[SPS]

Good thread ..

feed back is a good subject, when you read the mullard enginers work from the 50's one would think an amplifier would be substandard without it

most modern push pull/ pentode amps are based on those circuits, so need feedback to operate

but there is a down side to feedback..
and it starts with your speakers..

so i'll start with your speakers..

if you connect a voltmeter onto a speaker( just the driver) and vibrate the cone in and out (its also a dynamo?) you can easily create 1/2 a volt or so.... so, if its moving at its real speed.. whats the voltage created? close to the signal thats moving it..?


next... the complicated sinewave that is the music signal, the height of the wave is volume, the length is frequency..
The speakers goal is to act on, and move the speaker cone to replicate that sine wave.. yes..

but none do....
transient attack is the speed the cone follows that sine wave, and effeciency(loudness) is the height achived by the speaker cone movement relative to the height of the sine wave.. ( that explains why hi eff are louder and follow that signal more.. think about that one...)

so now.. on the speakers wires.... there is the music signal voltage...and the signal thats created by the speaker not keeping up with the signal..

two different, yet very similalr voltage sinewaves, the latter more dependant on the speakers and associated components.

with the mullard type amps, global feedback is used ( nearly all amps use global) ... to put that simply, there's a tap from the speaker wire that feeds a portion of that signal back into your power amp input,
so a portion of the signal from the speaker wires is mixed with the source signal.... not a big portion of the amps output, but a large amount compared to the input or source signal that it mixed with

so..
the 'level' of feed back dictates how much signal goes back ito the amp,

and the speakers themselves are affecting the signal through the amplifier !!

The amount of distortion the amp is making at higher volumes is also fed back into the 'pot'...


These affects are only slight in most cases, usually a thinkening of the sound, giving a little more body to the presenation.. but it also takes away the finer details and the sweetness or musicallity that is maybe in the source


so many 'high' feed back (usually solidstate) amps, in use, can thicken the combined signal up, often resulting in a (futher?) lack of detail and a thicker (more solid ) sounding.. slightly false output...

now.. it is obvious to me that speakers and amps need to 'suit' each other
and very good results can be had with many combinations of all types of kit,

but don't forget all is not what it seems
think of a ducati V twin sound.. an impresive boom.... boom..... boom ...

but its not really..it just sounds like that.. its really boomboom...... boomboom......
many would say.. who cares it sounds good...
and there's nothing wrong with saying that about your hi fi too.. is there ?

steve

[chris@panteg]

I don't think i mentioned this but i also had way back in the good old 90's a pair of Quad 2 mono's completely rebuilt and re badged as concordant exultant quad 2s they were lovely sounding and i had the option of either using GE kt66 or 6550 both very different but the amp was more suited to classical than rock , they sounded amazing with ESL57's a friend had at the time.

[Ali Tait]

Anthony,yes you're right,kt66 is better.I like triode sound,45 is my favourite valve so far,but alas not enough power for my statics.813 is the best compromise I've heard so far,along with Nick's A2 211. I like my statics far too much to change them,so am stuck with the need for a bit of power. Steve,this back emf thing has been talked about before,but I hear the same sound with a PP amp on my statics,so I guess it can't all be down to that.What do you think?
Marco,yes I haven't forgotten!Yes your amp has huge amounts of headroom,and there is no shortage of "balls" but I still prefer se.I like the 813 amp(triode connected) because it gives me the se sound,but also has the authority of a PP amp.I also need a bit of power to drive my statics.It all comes down to personal taste....

[anthonyTD]

Good thread ..

feed back is a good subject, when you read the mullard enginers work from the 50's one would think an amplifier would be substandard without it

most modern push pull/ pentode amps are based on those circuits, so need feedback to operate

but there is a down side to feedback..
and it starts with your speakers..

so i'll start with your speakers..

if you connect a voltmeter onto a speaker( just the driver) and vibrate the cone in and out (its also a dynamo?) you can easily create 1/2 a volt or so.... so, if its moving at its real speed.. whats the voltage created? close to the signal thats moving it..?


next... the complicated sinewave that is the music signal, the height of the wave is volume, the length is frequency..
The speakers goal is to act on, and move the speaker cone to replicate that sine wave.. yes..

but none do....
transient attack is the speed the cone follows that sine wave, and effeciency(loudness) is the height achived by the speaker cone movement relative to the height of the sine wave.. ( that explains why hi eff are louder and follow that signal more.. think about that one...)

so now.. on the speakers wires.... there is the music signal voltage...and the signal thats created by the speaker not keeping up with the signal..

two different, yet very similalr voltage sinewaves, the latter more dependant on the speakers and associated components.

with the mullard type amps, global feedback is used ( nearly all amps use global) ... to put that simply, there's a tap from the speaker wire that feeds a portion of that signal back into your power amp input,
so a portion of the signal from the speaker wires is mixed with the source signal.... not a big portion of the amps output, but a large amount compared to the input or source signal that it mixed with

so..
the 'level' of feed back dictates how much signal goes back ito the amp,

and the speakers themselves are affecting the signal through the amplifier !!

The amount of distortion the amp is making at higher volumes is also fed back into the 'pot'...


These affects are only slight in most cases, usually a thinkening of the sound, giving a little more body to the presenation.. but it also takes away the finer details and the sweetness or musicallity that is maybe in the source


so many 'high' feed back (usually solidstate) amps, in use, can thicken the combined signal up, often resulting in a (futher?) lack of detail and a thicker (more solid ) sounding.. slightly false output...

now.. it is obvious to me that speakers and amps need to 'suit' each other
and very good results can be had with many combinations of all types of kit,

but don't forget all is not what it seems
think of a ducati V twin sound.. an impresive boom.... boom..... boom ...

but its not really..it just sounds like that.. its really boomboom...... boomboom......
many would say.. who cares it sounds good...
and there's nothing wrong with saying that about your hi fi too.. is there ?

steve
nice one steve.
when trying to explain feedback, i often akin its affects to a shock absorber on a car,[bear with me] if you took all of the shocks off your car the ride would be fine untill you hit a bump, then it would bounce from the affect of the bump and continue untill it gradually stopped [eventually] this i atribute to the damping factor in a power amp, now, put back the shocks, and when we do the bump thing the after shocks are damped, and the bouncing stops almost as fast as it started, now uprate the shocks and you get even more control over the stopping and starting, but as the shocks get harder it begins to have an adverse affect on the springs ability to absorb the shock in the first place, ie, it takes more effort to move the spring in the first place.
so just to clarify,,, i relate the spring to the speaker, the shocks as the damping factor acheived by the negative feedback, and the after shocks as the back emf produced by the speaker.
hope this makes sense.
anthony...

[SPS]

Steve,this back emf thing has been talked about before,but I hear the same sound with a PP amp on my statics,so I guess it can't all be down to that.What do you think?
....

quite agree Ali, it not all down to that, there are many variables.. as you know..

but...if you hear the same sound with push pull, why do you prefer your se amp?

steve

[anthonyTD]

Anthony,yes you're right,kt66 is better.I like triode sound,45 is my favourite valve so far,but alas not enough power for my statics.813 is the best compromise I've heard so far,along with Nick's A2 211. I like my statics far too much to change them,so am stuck with the need for a bit of power. Steve,this back emf thing has been talked about before,but I hear the same sound with a PP amp on my statics,so I guess it can't all be down to that.What do you think?
Marco,yes I haven't forgotten!Yes your amp has huge amounts of headroom,and there is no shortage of "balls" but I still prefer se.I like the 813 amp(triode connected) because it gives me the se sound,but also has the authority of a PP amp.I also need a bit of power to drive my statics.It all comes down to personal taste....

hi ali,
i agree, the 45 is a great little valve, also the 813 can give excelent results in the right circuit.
anthony...

[Marco]

Marco,yes I haven't forgotten! Yes your amp has huge amounts of headroom,and there is no shortage of "balls" but I still prefer se.


LOL. Ali, never say never, mate, or at least add a "so far" to the end of that statement. I won't ever completely rule out SE until I've heard all there is to hear with it, which will probably be never! You should do the same with P/P KT88s.

Bring all your amps to mine and we'll have a shoot-out and see what happens :)

Marco.

[Togil]

Bought a CD of Hermann Prey singing the Peter Cornelius Weihnachtslieder ( including the famous "Kings" ) , a 1971 recording

The singing is so beautiful and pure that I don't want the amplifier to change anything and make it more musical

I'm not happy with the sound of my own ampolifier on this record but would it be better with valves ? I'm not so sure. I will use it as my reference recording for the next few months.

[Clive]

Bought a CD of Hermann Prey singing the Peter Cornelius Weihnachtslieder ( including the famous "Kings" ) , a 1971 recording

The singing is so beautiful and pure that I don't want the amplifier to change anything and make it more musical

I'm not happy with the sound of my own ampolifier on this record but would it be better with valves ? I'm not so sure. I will use it as my reference recording for the next few months.
Have you only heard this recording via your amp? If the answer is yes then using it as a reference may well mislead you. Indeed it's not unusual to setup a system around a few recordings. Feeling confident it's been done well, you then play some other music and you discover that all you've done is to setup your system for a few specific recordings....

[Ali Tait]

Good question Steve! Same reason most of us do I suspect.There's something special about se that pp just doesn't do.

[MartinT]

the old SS had a speed of response and a sense of control that lent an open clarity to the presentation

That describes my Chord MOSFET SS amp perfectly. I have gone the other way, from valves to SS but I am open minded and can hear the merits of both technologies. Previous valve amps have been a Croft Series 4S and a fully rebuilt Leak Stereo 20. The latter has a sound to die for, but unfortunately its power envelope is a bit limited.

The Chord has headroom to spare and allows my system to soar. That's important at the volumes I choose to play at.

[alb]

That's important at the volumes I choose to play at.

Another possible factor in deciding which amp to use.

Marco wouldn't be happy with my 4-5 watt SET, because it wouldn't give him the high sound levels he enjoys. However it's good enough for me, most of the time.
Therefore the choice is limited to many push pull amps or a few powerful single ended models.

[Marco]

Marco wouldn't be happy with my 4-5 watt SET, because it wouldn't give him the high sound levels he enjoys...


Hi Al,

You're absolutely right, but that situation might change with a pair of 100db+ efficiency Bastanis! ;)

Marco.

[Clive]

Hi Al,

You're absolutely right, but that situation might change with a pair of 100db+ efficiency Bastanis! ;)

Marco.
They went reasonably loud with my 2W 45 amp but now that my 8W 300B is fully fettled, 8W into 100db speakers should work for most people......

[SPS]

They went reasonably loud with my 2W 45 amp but now that my 8W 300B is fully fettled, 8W into 100db speakers should work for most people......


it would be very interesting Clive, to hear how your bastanis compare with my goodmans based baffles, there are not that many 100db baffles about..

steve

[Marco]

Well I'll let you know Steve once I've heard both ;)

I know what your babies can do in my room and I'll soon hear what the Bastanis can do in a mate's room I know very well - heard them at Clive's and loved them, though :)

Marco.

[Togil]

Interesting that the very expensive Canadian company Tenor ( £ 50,000 plus ) have switched to FET in the output stage while using an OTL valve driver stage in their new top model.

[Mr. C]

I usually find these discussions most interesting though tend to keep well out of the way.
However on this occasion:-
Personally I have time for both forms of amplification, I have been privileged to have listened to some truly great equipment, both valve and solid state.
Last year I was in a position to spend an afternoon with some truly world class valves and horns. It was the first time I have heard horns produce realism, bass, and dynamics without recourse to any of the usual failings at all.
All powered by 4 watts of SET. A superb musical entertainment fest.
The amps and horns were bespoke built at no expense or technical issue. Cost around 800,000 Euro's excluding the room!
Conversely the Grande Utopia III's with a couple of quality solid state units gave me the same transcendental sensations though in different areas, yet awe factor was just incredible.
The above is all very well and good, however the price constraints mean all but a very few very lucky soles can obtain this.
In the real world, most days I hear both good and bad examples of each breed, and I take this on board and use it when matching systems to customers needs.
Some of the most musically involving systems we have heard seem to lie between 5K and 9K and are carefully selected and matched and have a 'just right' gel factor.
They have a listen too for hours quality that just makes you smile when you listen.
The very bottom line on this debate boils down to a very simple word 'Implementation' nothing more or less.
I have heard 'very average' £30K valve amps, and some great £1k lash up's, which easily out stripped the hugely more expensive 'named' brand.
To be fair, I have also witnessed great one man band self proclaiming 'take on all comers' £10K monster, get creamed by a chap who works for a hospital radio, who knocked up box sat on a piece 3 inch chopping block!
The same goes for solid state too, the are some truly dire examples out there, as there are some quite exemplary examples too.
Though one observation that has always stood out for me is the pre-amplifier, one of the big keys to systems sounds.

[MartinT]

The very bottom line on this debate boils down to a very simple word 'Implementation' nothing more or less

I so agree with you and have had similar experiences: Infinity Betas run from Audio Research valves, for instance, Horning Agathon Ultimates from SETs and JM Lab Grande Utopias from solid state amps. All fantastic, all different.

I'm sorry I never bought those Focal Altos as an upgrade from my Mezzos from you, but went in another direction and fell in love with Usher. Doesn't make me any less fond of Focal, though.


Though one observation that has always stood out for me is the pre-amplifier, one of the big keys to systems sounds.

Agreed too. I found audio Nirvana here in the Pass Labs X1 and believe Nelson Pass has a lot to say about preamp circuits. I have borrowed Krell and BAT preamps in the past and they have not come close.

[anthonyTD]

a good preamplifier is a must,
if the begining or intermediate stage is not up to scratch then it wont matter whats in the chain after it, all the dynamics and detail that were present in the original recording will be skewed, or at worst lost all together.
anthony,TD...

[Togil]

a good preamplifier is a must,
if the begining or intermediate stage is not up to scratch then it wont matter whats in the chain after it, all the dynamics and detail that were present in the original recording will be skewed, or at worst lost all together.
anthony,TD...

If you are after purity of (unamplified) vocals, is there anything better than a good passive preamp with a valve power amp ?

[Steve Toy]

Passive preamps are great with purity of vocals and yet very poor with dynamics, according to my experience. An active valve pre is far superior overall.

[MartinT]

I have played with passive 'preamps' in the past and also made my own with Alps and Noble pots. They pass the detail and transparency test but fail on dynamics.

Power amps like to be driven, preferably by balanced XLR connections.

[Clive]

In general I agree about the lack of dynamics on typical gear where you have:

- 1m interconnects from passive to power amp
- 0.775V sensitivity power amp
- lowish input impedance power amp, eg 20k

The capability of the source is just as important too.

However take a not unusual valve amp with:

- pot integrated with the power amp (it could instead be external but short cables help)
- 0.2V sensitivity power amp
- 100k input impedance for the power amp

This 2nd scenario will work much better. It's likely this 2nd scenario comprises a 3 stage valve amp so effectively you have the preamp in the power amp. I'm being pedantic here but it's not that passives don't work, it's more to do with the gain structure and impedance matching characteristics of a system.

[Tony Moore]

Hi All,

*** Oops! My post came in after Clive's which goes a long way to helping my understanding! ***

I'm not trying to be controversial, nor am I saying that pre-amps are a bad thing, just trying to get my head around the _why_ of it all. :scratch:

I mean, if your power amp has enough gain, and your CD player or Phono amp has a good buffer to drive the interconnects, why do we need even _more_ gain, just to stick it through a pot and reduce it again? It seems like we'd be better of with less gain stages, less phase shifts, etc.

Where do the extra dynamics come from by using a pre-amp over a "passive pre". (Ooh I _hate_ that term! It's a pot not an "amplifier"! :lol: [sorry, I'm having a pedantic day!)

I just wonder if when people notice an improvement in dynamics when using an active pre-amp over a passive "pot" that it's not the fact that their previous output stage does not have the current drive to handle the capacitance of the cables, plus the pot's load?

I'm just trying to understand what's going on is all.

Cheers,
Tony

[anthonyTD]

Hi All,

*** Oops! My post came in after Clive's which goes a long way to helping my understanding! ***

I'm not trying to be controversial, nor am I saying that pre-amps are a bad thing, just trying to get my head around the _why_ of it all. :scratch:

I mean, if your power amp has enough gain, and your CD player or Phono amp has a good buffer to drive the interconnects, why do we need even _more_ gain, just to stick it through a pot and reduce it again? It seems like we'd be better of with less gain stages, less phase shifts, etc.

Where do the extra dynamics come from by using a pre-amp over a "passive pre". (Ooh I _hate_ that term! It's a pot not an "amplifier"! :lol: [sorry, I'm having a pedantic day!)

I just wonder if when people notice an improvement in dynamics when using an active pre-amp over a passive "pot" that it's not the fact that their previous output stage does not have the current drive to handle the capacitance of the cables, plus the pot's load?

I'm just trying to understand what's going on is all.

Cheers,
Tony

hi all,
yep,as have already been said its all about the ability of the source being able to drive the following cable and load. thats where an active preamp stage wins over passive. intergrated amps therefore have a lot going for them in this respect as the cables and thus the signal path between attenuator and gain stage can be kept to a minimum...:)
anthony,TD...

[Marco]

Indeed, Anthony.

You're definitely right about integrated amplifiers; these are largely neglected by the supposed cognoscenti in their rush to obtain the latest and greatest pre/power combos, and sometimes dealers chasing the (often) larger profit margins of the latter can also influence things.

A high quality, properly designed, integrated amplifier (valve or ss) has the potential to outperform some highly regarded pre/power amp combinations due to the reasons you've mentioned. I don't think some people realise just how much of a detrimental effect longer signal paths can have on the sound, poor quality cables linking the different boxes together, and just general 'over-complication' in some designs.

Use the highest quality parts possible, implement them correctly, and K.I.S.S (keep it simple, stupid) is the best policy in hi-fi design!

Regarding active and passive preamps, I have something interesting for you to listen to when you come up ;)

Marco.

[anthonyTD]

look forward to that:eyebrows:
anthony,TD...

[Mr. C]

On this very subject, have any of the valve boys heard the new Burning amps?
Most acceptable

[Haselsh1]

Mmmm... yeah, for what it's worth... my perfect amplifier would be valve. It would be a push pull 300B with no feedback and around 30 Watts per channel. The drivers would be 6SN7GT's. Now that, I'd love. I used to have a WAD 300B PP amplifier around 1998 and that amp was the finest sounding amp I had ever heard up to that time. Of course there's no chance of ever getting another. There is however a very close companion... Icon Audio have a 300B PP amplifier that has a tiny bit of feedback in circuit. Why haven't I bought one...??? The bloody thing is around 1700 pounds and therefore around twice what my pocket will sustain these days. I am therefore going to have to make do with a Naim Nait 5i when I have saved up the pennies. There is no way that is going to come anywhere near my dream 300B but, as with most things, it's a compromsie.

[promachos]

Hi-I'm new here !

I have several valve amps, PP & SE and they all have their merits.

I have yet to find a solid state amp that i could live with,but it might exist.:lol:

Once you find a good,efficient speaker then low power SE valves are all you need. 300b is my fave (at the moment !)

[Togil]

On this very subject, have any of the valve boys heard the new Burning amps?
Most acceptable

Do you mean Berning ?

[DSJR]

I own the perfect amps for my needs :)

I inherited them, so they cost me nothing (well, the bottom two didn't), they were made for pro as well as domestic use so are honest sounding and bomb proof. They run cool and have no "attitude" at all.

Boring? Possibly, but I love the way they just get on with the job of feeding some lovely music and speech into the Spendors, never obviously getting in the way...

http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q8/DSJR_photos/ThreeD_60sstackedsmaller.jpg

[anthonyTD]

hi all,
seems there is a healthy following from users of both technologies sharing their views on this thread, which is great as the whole reason for starting this thread was not to promote the virtues of one technology over the other, but to get opinions from users of both, and for all to share and contribute their views on why one technology works for them. i have already given some positive pointers and atributes as to why my own prefrence is valves, but as we all know both technologies have negative and positive atributes, so lets hear more from all who have experienced the diffrences and what finaly swayed them to choose one technology over the other in their paticular system... :)
anthony,TD...

[aquapiranha]

I have used both in the past, and have changed from one to the other occasionally. both have their strengths. Blanket statements like "valves are just better" for example show a bit of ignorance IMO, each have their strength and weaknesses. YMMV

[promachos]

Blanket statements like "valves are just better" for example show a bit of ignorance IMO, each have their strength and weaknesses. YMMV

Well, I must be ignorant !

Valves ARE better !

Not all valves are created equal though.:lol:

When i hear a transistor (or class D/T ) amp that I could live with I would revise my opinion.;)

[aquapiranha]

Well, I must be ignorant !

Valves ARE better !

Not all valves are created equal though.:lol:

When i hear a transistor (or class D/T ) amp that I could live with I would revise my opinion.;)

that is why I included YMMV in the post.... I have used a Tripath amp, that was lovely

[leo]

I'm still undecided which I thinks best although admit its been a while since I've used a valve amp.
I've still got a WADkit88 with Sowter UO82 output transformers sat under the bed, wouldn't mind gutting it out sometime and making use of the transformers in another design, a later project maybe:confused:

[promachos]

In isolation,my Tripath chip amp sounds good.

But then put on a decent PP or SE amp and it is obvious where the Tripath is deficient.:lol:

[Marco]

Leo,

Seriously, you should revisit some quality valve amps sometime and see what you think now. Oh, and by "quality" I don't necessarily mean expensive! ;)

Nothing in hi-fi is perfect, and through recent experiments with high quality, well-designed, solid-state amps and respective examples from valves, I can clearly hear that ss amps have the edge on speed of bass transients and an overall quickness of response in the bass region which makes for a 'faster', tighter, slightly punchier sound - but with certain types of music only (mainly rock and dance). But a good valve amp is not lacking at all in this area; it's just that in my experience a good ss amp handles that particular aspect of the sound just that little bit better.

However, in every other area, to my ears, a good valve amp outperforms a good solid-state amp, and by a considerable margin, particularly when you hear a valve amp that gets it *so* right. There is a crystalline clarity, purity, openness and expansiveness with valves that I simply don’t think ss is capable of, no matter how well designed it is – for me, it’s to do with how fundamentally different both technologies behave when implemented in their respective circuits. But it's like anything else: ‘you pays your money and takes your choice’. I could easily see why people with certain tastes in music and presentational priorities wouldn't really 'get' the valve thing, and their choice is as valid as anyone else's.

As far as I'm concerned though, my taste in music is too wide and varied to build a system around what optimises only a small percentage of what I listen to, and then only in a way which isn't really that important to me. The valve amp I use handles the vast majority of my music collection far better than any ss amp I've heard, and that's all that really matters. YMMV :)

Marco.

[Spectral Morn]

Leo,

Seriously, you should revisit some quality valve amps sometime and see what you think now. Oh, and by "quality" I don't necessarily mean expensive! ;)

However, in every other area, to my ears, a good valve amp outperforms a good solid-state amp, and by a considerable margin, particularly when you hear a valve amp that gets it *so* right. There is a crystalline clarity, purity, openness and expansiveness with valves that I simply don’t think ss is capable of, no matter how well designed it is – for me, it’s to do with how fundamentally different both technologies behave when implemented in their respective circuits. But it's like anything else: ‘you pays your money and takes your choice’. I could easily see why people with certain tastes in music and presentational priorities wouldn't really 'get' the valve thing, and their choice is as valid as anyone else's.

As far as I'm concerned though, my taste in music is too wide and varied to build a system around what optimises only a small percentage of what I listen to, and then only in a way which isn't really that important to me. The valve amp I use handles the vast majority of my music collection far better than an ss amp I've heard, and that's all that really matters. YMMV :)

Marco.



I agree totally with the above...


Nothing in hi-fi is perfect, and through recent experiments with high quality, well-designed, solid-state amps and respective examples from valves, I can clearly hear that ss amps have the edge on speed of bass transients and an overall quickness of response in the bass region which makes for a 'quicker', tighter, slightly punchier sound - but with certain types of music only (mainly rock and dance). But a good valve amp is not lacking at all in this area; it's just that in my experience a good ss amp handles that particular aspect of the sound just that little bit better.




I don't agree with the above, (except possibly in relation to SE amps and unsuitable speakers). I listen to both rock and dance and feel that valves still have it here too, but in fairness its more the higher power push pull amps such as my BAT VK75 which has great 6c33c valves that do power and delicacy very well indeed, or my Music Reference RM 200 amp. The BAT is 75 watts the RM200 100 watts.

Solid state, even the very best I have heard just sounds two dimensional and unreal compared to good valve amps IMHO.


Regards D S D L---Neil :)

[leo]

Leo,

Seriously, you should revisit some quality valve amps sometime and see what you think now. Oh, and by "quality" I don't necessarily mean expensive! ;)

Nothing in hi-fi is perfect, and through recent experiments with high quality, well-designed, solid-state amps and respective examples from valves, I can clearly hear that ss amps have the edge on speed of bass transients and an overall quickness of response in the bass region which makes for a 'faster', tighter, slightly punchier sound - but with certain types of music only (mainly rock and dance). But a good valve amp is not lacking at all in this area; it's just that in my experience a good ss amp handles that particular aspect of the sound just that little bit better.

However, in every other area, to my ears, a good valve amp outperforms a good solid-state amp, and by a considerable margin, particularly when you hear a valve amp that gets it *so* right. There is a crystalline clarity, purity, openness and expansiveness with valves that I simply don’t think ss is capable of, no matter how well designed it is – for me, it’s to do with how fundamentally different both technologies behave when implemented in their respective circuits. But it's like anything else: ‘you pays your money and takes your choice’. I could easily see why people with certain tastes in music and presentational priorities wouldn't really 'get' the valve thing, and their choice is as valid as anyone else's.

As far as I'm concerned though, my taste in music is too wide and varied to build a system around what optimises only a small percentage of what I listen to, and then only in a way which isn't really that important to me. The valve amp I use handles the vast majority of my music collection far better than any ss amp I've heard, and that's all that really matters. YMMV :)

Marco.

Marco,

Well I'm not biased, infact I go with anything I find sounds best be it valves, SS or even classD

I would like ago at building something, not sure what exactly yet:scratch:
I'm not a huge fan of SE valve amps tbh, I appreciate why people love them but I also understand why others don't even with very high sensitive speakers it would have to be PP for me

[DSJR]

Well, I'd be delighted to get my Quad II's going again with some later Epos ES14's, as the combo was so good and my current room isn't big. What I described earlier has the speakers adding an organic quality and the amps giving it as straight as possible. It can even do 3-D if the recording allows it, but doesn't if it isn't there.

[promachos]

Quad 11s are nice,nicer if modded with modern resistors and caps,but ultimately lacking compared to the "other" valve amps i have.

They don't get used very often unfortunately.

[kbuech]

I agree totally with the above...


Solid state, even the very best I have heard just sounds two dimensional and unreal compared to good valve amps IMHO.


Regards D S D L---Neil :)


Hi Neil,

If you have not heard it already, you may want to listen to the YBA Integre integrated amp or it's less expensive brother, the Audio Refinement Complete integrated amplifier (which I own). Both were designed by Yves-Bernard André of YBA, a French electronics firm widely admired for their rigorously, if sometimes unconventionally, applied engineering. Both amps sound tube-like with no harshness or grain. Yet both are VERY detailed with excellent soundstaging and a realistic presentation of the musicians/vocalists.

Cheers,

Kurt

[Haselsh1]

I fully comply with what has been said about solid state amplification and bass speed. At the moment, in between valve amps, I am using a monster of a studio amplifier with around 300 Watts on tap. Whilst this amp is on loan I have noticed a vast depth to the bass and a completely effortless way of presenting low frequencies that, to be honest, I've never heard before especially from a valve amplifier. The big difference though between this amplifier and previous incarnations of valves is the midrange purity and delicacy. OK, I have mainly used 300B types but the 'air' and 'space' that these amplfiers create in the treble is astonishing.

So, what would I rather have...? Both I think. I love the sheer effortlessness of the bass that 300 Watts of solid state brings but one cannot deny the sheer elegance of a valve midrange. As most of my music is female vocal and acoustic it would make great sense to go back to valve.

[Spectral Morn]

Hi Neil,

If you have not heard it already, you may want to listen to the YBA Integre integrated amp or it's less expensive brother, the Audio Refinement Complete integrated amplifier (which I own). Both were designed by Yves-Bernard André of YBA, a French electronics firm widely admired for their rigorously, if sometimes unconventionally, applied engineering. Both amps sound tube-like with no harshness or grain. Yet both are VERY detailed with excellent soundstaging and a realistic presentation of the musicians/vocalists.

Cheers,

Kurt


Hi Kurt

Yes YBA is nice kit. I used to work for the company who first brought YBA to the UK back in the early 90's and I liked the CDP (though the business of it sounding better with its lid partly open was a bit strange). I have never heard the amps. I will keep an open mind. So far the best type of SS I have heard tends to be class A and Mosfet based, but still I think they lack that natural magic of tubes.

Regards D S D L---Neil :)

[anthonyTD]

Hi Kurt

Yes YBA is nice kit. I used to work for the company who first brought YBA to the UK back in the early 90's and I liked the CDP (though the business of it
sounding better with its lid partly open was a bit strange. I have never heard the amps. I will keep an open mind. So far the best type of SS I have heard tends to be class A and Mosfet based, but still I think they lack that natural magic of tubes.

Regards D S D L---Neil :)

hi neil,
yes, very odd that, but i tend to agree about the best sounding SS amps being class A.
anthony,TD...

[kalozois100]

I have always been interested in valve amps after listening to the same turntable hooked up to solid state then a valve amp. the latter dropped my lower jaw to the floor . The cost always scarred me but recently these chinese types are opening up the market to budgeteers like myself. Should I go for something used or a chinese like the one below or even a yakin pre amp as an option. ? :scratch:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Ming-Da-MC84-C-Class-A-Tube-Stereo-Integrated-Amplifier_W0QQitemZ290295214515QQcmdZViewItemQQptZ UK_AudioTVElectronics_HomeAudioHiFi_Amplifiers?has h=item290295214515&_trksid=p3911.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1683%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A12%7C39%3A1%7C 240%3A1318

[Spectral Morn]

I have always been interested in valve amps after listening to the same turntable hooked up to solid state then a valve amp. the latter dropped my lower jaw to the floor . The cost always scarred me but recently these chinese types are opening up the market to budgeteers like myself. Should I go for something used or a chinese like the one below or even a yakin pre amp as an option. ? :scratch:



HI kalozois100

Not sure about that, it might be Ming Da but yet again not. Anybody know for sure ? Looks poor to my eyes, case works not very good - Ming Da is better.

With Chinese amps I would be very careful. there are a lot of very poor ones out there. Set for 220 volts and barely capable of handling that, they over heat, burn through valves or blow up. If you want cheapish but good quality and with a UK warranty I would look at Fat man (Clones of/re badged/ re-worked Dared amps), David Shaw's (reworked/re-designed, same case work as Ming Da amplifiers) Icon Audio or Pure Sound bit dearer but best of the lot IMHO.

A Pure Sound ex demo or S/H, if it suits your speakers (must be reasonably easy to drive and as close to 8 ohms as possible) would be your best option. Try and find a dealer who has one (that falls into the options I mentioned) and have a listen. S/H Icon Audio Stereo 40 also a good option.


Regards D S D L---Neil :)

[Togil]

Anyone tried the German/Chinese amps from Cayin ?

[Marco]

Some questions...

Do people who use valve equipment describe how their system handles the reproduction of music using terminology related to 'sound' or 'music'?

For example, do 'bottle heads' (a rather quaint expression) value the presentational aspects of reproduction more (tone, timbre, soundstaging, etc) than that which 'communicates the musical message' (pace, rhythm, timing, etc)?

As a 'bottle head', is the 'sound' of music more important to you than emotional communication? Are you prone to describing 'sound differences' rather than 'musical differences' when analysing how your valve amp or system handles music?

This post over on pfm is what prompted me to ask these questions:


I have always puzzled about the enthusiasm for Hi-Fi valve amps. For me I just don't see it, they lack so much musical information, even more so with the older type 300B type designs. Yes they sound nice, yes they are easy to listen to, but!

Well I have come to a conclusion - bottle heads are looking for sound - sand heads are looking for music. Now this is obviously going to be controversial, but bare with me. Get the two types of hi-fi enthusiast to describe their preferences and see the language they use, and invariably the bottle heads use sound words. Do the same with sandheads and you get music words. Both are intangables that are very open to interpretation, but it is there consistantly. The whole flat earth BS was built on music words, pace rythme and timing being the most obvious and the typical flat earth amp accentuates those characteristics. Where as the bottleheads nearly always describe the experience in sound words like smooth, silk like, softer more laid back (just used in a post to me) a singer described by his / her tonal characteristics as opposed to inflection and note structure and tonal *information* and structure.

I also find it fascinating that bottleheads use the argument that musos use valves mostly in amplification, but this is a red herring and for me it is obvious why. I muso is looking for a sound, it is his instrument, he is creating the music with that instrument sound. For Hi-Fi it is different, we are not creating a sound we are reproducing that persons music!

Now both of these choices are are in all of us, it is just some go off one way and some go the other, it is an intellectual decision. But once established as the things we look for to be taken the other way is difficult, it takes a leap or change of perspective / faith, this is why converts are usually the most vocal and adamant as they have an agenda to support.

There is crossover over or compromise between the two as with hybrids and more (so called) solid state sounding valve amps, but note the word "sounding", then we are looking at solid state as sound and not music.

Controversial I know but it is a conclusion I have come to.


I will add my views in more detail later, but regarding what is written above I would say that the notion that "bottle heads are looking for sound - sand heads are looking for music" implies that there is only one true, 'correct', way of appreciating music: that which is preferred and deemed as 'correct' by the author of the above, and thus everything else is 'wrong', or perhaps more accurately, 'not as right'...

Surely everyone derives something different from enjoying reproduced music on a hi-fi system? After all, people 'connect' with music in different ways. It matters not which 'sound' or 'musical' aspects of your equipment draw you into the music, as long as you're listening to music in the first place...

I thought as there are plenty of 'bottle heads' here on AOS that it would be intriguing to pose these questions to you :)

<Discuss>

Here’s a challenge:

Select a piece of music and tell us what it is, then listen to it through your system and describe your experience. It should then indicate if you value 'musical differences' or 'sound differences'.

Marco.

[NRG]

I suggest everybody reads the PFM thread first. IMHO I think it's baloney, it's too black and white and ultimately pointless, my 2p worth.

[Marco]

Indeed, Neal. Like I said:


Surely everyone derives something different from enjoying reproduced music on a hi-fi system? After all, people 'connect' with music in different ways. It matters not which 'sound' or 'musical' aspects of your equipment draw you into the music, as long as you're listening to music in the first place...

I would say that the notion that "bottle heads are looking for sound - sand heads are looking for music" implies that there is only one true, 'correct', way of appreciating music: that which is preferred and deemed as 'correct' by the author of the above, and thus everything else is 'wrong', or perhaps more accurately, 'not as right'...


The latter is of course bollocks.

Who's to say that someone, for example, who values tone and timbre in the presentation of his or her valve equipment when listening to music isn't as much of a music lover as someone who values 'PRAT' with music on their ss amp?? The insinuation to the contrary is a massive generalisation and an acute example of grossly simplistic thinking.

It doesn't matter one iota how you describe listening to music on your valve or ss-based system - what matters is that you're listening to and enjoying music, period.

I think that a certain 'sand amp' manufacturer has an agenda all of his own ;)

Still like to know what people's thoughts are, though!

Marco.

[MartinT]

I moved from a valve-based system to a transistor-based system some years ago. I didn't care about the technology and the things I listen for in music have stayed the same. There just isn't a black-and-white recipe mix for valves or transistors and I could quote valve equipment that sounds like trannies and solid-state equipment that definitely sounds like valves. It's all about circuit design and implementation.

[chris@panteg]

I believe you can get great performance from valve or SS and also downright awful from both systems.

As for that guy's comment 'well it reminds me of a certain Chris Frankland who was forever banging on about why Linn and Naim systems are for genuine music lovers and if you liked valve amps and the like ' you were an imagery freak or soundstage fanatic.

[chris@panteg]

I believe you can get great performance from valve or SS and also downright awful from both systems.

As for that guy's comment 'well it reminds me of a certain Chris Frankland who was forever banging on about why Linn and Naim systems are for genuine music lovers and if you liked valve amps and the like ' you were an imagery freak or soundstage fanatic.

[anthonyTD]

I moved from a valve-based system to a transistor-based system some years ago. I didn't care about the technology and the things I listen for in music have stayed the same. There just isn't a black-and-white recipe mix for valves or transistors and I could quote valve equipment that sounds like trannies and solid-state equipment that definitely sounds like valves. It's all about circuit design and implementation.

agreed!!!
A...

[Marco]

Indeed, Chris. Perhaps we should set our membership the question:

Define what is considered as a "genuine music lover"? That should keep folk going for a few weeks!!

Martin gets it spot on here, as others and myself have said many times:


It's all about circuit design and implementation.


I moved from Naim NAC52/NAP135s and ECS 200W ss monoblocks to my current TD 30W Class A Copper P/P valve amp and Croft Charisma-X valve preamp, and it does 'PRAT' every bit as well as the former did, and everything else better! I'm sure that anyone who heard the AOS system at the Scalford Hall show would say that 'pace rhythm & timing' wasn't exactly missing! :eyebrows:

All of which simply means that I can access more of the 'music' in my music collection, if you see my meaning, and also be in the position where *I* choose what's played and not my system...

Thing is, there are a lot of shit valve amps out there which give 'the side' a bad name - and many of them represent expensive shit, too! That's the problem. The fact is, outside of the D.I.Y arena and some Chinese imports it costs serious money to buy a genuinely good, musically capable, valve amp. Aside from circuit design and implementation, high quality mains and output transformers, often hand-wound in the best examples (and other bespoke components), which are central to achieving the above, don't come cheap!!

For that reason, not that many people (out with of D.I.Yers) who are used to buying 'mainstream' hi-fi have been exposed to what a great valve amp can do, and so often arrive at false conclusions based on limited experience. Indeed, I would conclude that anyone who thinks valve amps "lack so much musical information" have never heard a really good one! ;)

Marco.

[chris@panteg]

Well my current system is not my my best or most expensive but i enjoy listening to it and i find it hard to walk away from sometimes especially the turntable ' so the techie must be doing it for me, i listen to it and i just lose myself and float off somewhere.

Does that mean i am a music lover or imagery freak' ohh by the way the snell's are not great imaging sort of speakers anyway.

[DSJR]

You're a genuine music lover with a good stereo....

I can't go more than a couple of days without music of some sort. Lack of funds and time prevents me buying any or much more new music to enjoy, but my music collection is vast enough to find a fair bit of variety.

I answered on the PFM question. It matters not what technology is used if the implentation is right. A good amp shouldn't have a "sound" anyway (as much as possible) but there is something very comforting about the appearance of a valve amp I found and I regret that the Croft is in a cabinet so I can't see through the mesh top...

[kalozois100]

For that reason, not that many people (out with of D.I.Yers) who are used to buying 'mainstream' hi-fi have been exposed to what a great valve amp can do, and so often arrive at false conclusions based on limited experience. I would conclude that anyone who thinks that valve amps "lack so much musical information" have never heard a really good one!

I am in the unfortunate position to never have heard a really good valve amp. But then again i wasn't around for Jesus's resurrection either but i strongly believe it happened!!

[Marco]

But then again i wasn't around for Jesus's resurrection either but i strongly believe it happened!!


Hahaha... Priceless! :lolsign:

Marco.

[Spectral Morn]

I am in the unfortunate position to never have heard a really good valve amp. But then again i wasn't around for Jesus's resurrection either but i strongly believe it happened!!

Amen Brother Kalozosis...

I will take part in this thread properly when I am back up and running valve wise. Interestingly for the last week and a bit I have been using my Chapter Audio Signature pre and Cuplet power amplifier and,.... well its not half bad(but is it half good or better ?).... I may well do a full write up comparison of Valve and Solid State in my set up, when I bring my RM200 amp back into the downstairs system.


I read the full thread on PFM and well....Richard's question is an interesting one. To my mind its about how we listen and how we describe listening. In away you could say that it is impossible or very difficult to describe how music sounds on either a valve amplifier or solid state one, without falling back on the tried and tested terms we all have used to try and describe the sound of how those item and how they reproduce the music played on them.

I don't believe that those who listen to valve based systems do so for a sound and those who listen to solid state don't, but listen to music :confused:how can that be stated ? There is nothing to say that many choose SS instead of valves because wait for it....THEY prefer the sound of SS amplification.

The neutrality question.....vs flavour something Marco asked about a while ago is an interesting aspect of this. Should a system reproduce without adding anything to the recording being played. Maybe and maybe not. The difficult question is...unless you where there, how do you know, that what you are hearing isn't the way the recording is supposed to sound;or not as the case maybe. If its live this may be possible but if not, well what about the way the band/musicians and producer want it to sound. How do you know ? Its not as simple as such and such sounds that way or so and so sounds that way when singing...there are lots of variables in this just as there are in putting an audio system together.

What is the truth...? How should instruments and singer sound like ? Even if you are very knowledgeable about the sound signature of an instrument the place where it is played recorded will have an effect on the final sound, as to will the state of your ears or if you have a cold or not. So that sound signature may be altered by the acoustic it is in.

All audio systems fail to reproduce the sound of music in some way, a perfect beast does not exist that I know of and our listening rooms will always have the final say. So should we not bother...of course we should. If its your passion like mine you will care about getting the system that suits you (should it ?) and your room (it must do this to work right). Its a journey and it is different and similar for some of us but should be fun at the end of the day.


I love music..I have thousands of recordings on vinyl, cd and tapes (plus I go to concerts when interesting ones come up) does this make me any more into listening to MUSIC than the guy or gal who only has a few hundred....I would say No.

I don't think it is possible to describe MUSIC without referring to SOUND, after all music is sound...and all those terms have to be used to provide points of reference. Can it be possible to describe music on valve or ss kit...without it falling into describing the characteristics of that kit....we shall see.


Regards D S D L

[kalozois100]

But then again i wasn't around for Jesus's resurrection either but i strongly believe it happened!! Glad you all liked my comment - it was totally spontaneous:lol:
Yeah valve owners admire valves optically as well as audioably from what i've read. Personally i have never got over how good valves looked in re runs of Flash Gordan back in late seventies when i was a youngster. the sets where loaded with them. Even on a black and white tv with the room lights off they looked awesome!! Ah yes and what about all those friday night horror black and white films. Full of valves too. In Black and white frankenstein films he needed loads of them valves to come back from the dead!!
It wasn't electricity that resurrected him but listening to valve music.:lol: its the movie industries most guarded secret!
I think am on a roll and i havent even got valve gear:eyebrows:

[chris@panteg]

One interesting comparison i did way back in 1997 , i had just bought a pair of 2nd audio mon's with 2a3 triodes and a/b it against my Concordant Exemplar 100 SS amp built for Doug Dunlop by Les Wolstenholm none other.

The difference was quite simply dramatic 'forget about tone/timbre/soundstage and the like ,there was a guy with me who was buying the Concordant.

He put it so perfectly ,we listened to Beethoven i think and his reaction to the 2nd audio's was OMG the orchestra's there ,it was like pulling the curtains away from the speakers or moving from the back of the theater to the front row.

[Marco]

Reading the lastest on pfm, I couldn't help but giggle (rather uncontrolably) at this from 'Bourney', an ex-customer of Mr Dunn's and the person whose comments he was referring to when starting the thread:


I am sure you can see i dont take things personal and i dont take hifi that serious either.its just for fun.i only listen to music for fun and to make me sing along and to lighten my mood, distract or relax me, i have no deeper technical interest in music I am afraid. i dont care about interaction wth musicians, the sound of the cleaner in the next studio or the acoustics of the hall it was recorded in, i only care if i like the song and if my stereo can play it without it interfering with me hearing it how i like to hear it, coloured or not.

However as an afterthought to the above, you made it personally directed at me by saying that ` i dont get it' and it is my posts that initiated you starting the thread....and thats fine. i do however recall you saying very recently that you liked my attitude to music and hifi, whereas you dont seem to feel the same way since i chose to stick with my valve amps ;)


Hahahaha... Et Voilà! The agenda, exposed in all its glory... Priceless! :lol:

I don't think any further comment on the subject is needed. One wonders why Tony allows it the bandwidth. Incidentally, I totally agree with Bourney's remarks here:


i only listen to music for fun and to make me sing along and to lighten my mood, distract or relax me, i have no deeper technical interest in music I am afraid.


That pretty much sums me up, too, and why I rarely engage in lengthy and often painfully dull 'intellectual dissertations' about music, seemingly popular and considered de rigueur by the cognoscenti before being officially labelled as a 'genuine music lover'. I would never claim to have the diverse musical knowledge of, say, Beechy, Chris, John or Snapper, but I bet that I enjoy listening to it and derive as much pleasure from it as they do!

Perhaps *that* is why some of us ('bottle heads', or 'sandboys') don't always describe differences in music when using hi-fi equipment with the panache of a musician or 'music geek', despite listening to it and enjoying it daily. And for those of you who consider yourself as a "music geek", I use the term with no offence intended - far from it, I would love to have your knowledge :)

Why does everything have to be so 'black and white' for some people? Absolutism is the root cause of so much that is wrong with hi-fi and the enjoyment of music, and as such has much to answer for!

Enjoying recorded music has got bugger all to do with the type equipment we use or how much we love music or 'sound', but rather *how* we listen to music, what we derive from it in an emotive sense, and what stimulates our brain. How 'seriously' we take the analysing and deconstructing of it - or indeed whether we're interested in doing that at all, or obtaining a historic and encyclopaedic knowledge of a multitude of artists and genres, has no bearing on our 'status' as a music lover. Human behaviour isn't that simple!

I suspect that for many of us, what Bourney describes above is all that's needed for our choice of music to hit the spot nicely, without some futile attempt at analysing the performance of our amplifiers (valve or 'sand') with the predilections of a trained musician.

In summary, Mr Dunn wants to neatly pidgeonhole valve and ss users into categories which suit his (commercial) preferences as a designer of 'sand amps' in order to justfy his beliefs and convince himself that he is 'right', which sadly demonstrates more than a little insecurity to accompany his already narcissistic tendencies.

Marco.

[The Grand Wazoo]

That pretty much sums me up, too, and why I rarely engage in lengthy and often painfully dull 'intellectual dissertations' about music, seemingly popular and considered de rigueur by the cognoscenti before being officially labelled as a 'genuine music lover'. I would never claim to have the diverse musical knowledge of, say, Beechy, Chris, John or Snapper, but I bet that I enjoy listening to it and derive as much pleasure from it as they do!


Marco,

You should reach unheard of pleasure levels when listen to the albums that are currently ambling their way to you (faster than a speeding pullet courtesy of the Royal Mail). This will be the case whether you listen to them through valves or solid state - guaranteed!!

PS Still waiting to read your reply to: Analysis Paralysis http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=2739

[Marco]

Nice one, Chris. I look forward to their arrival and will report in the music room after listening.

I can't promise that it will all be 'musical' observations, though!! According to the 'cognoscenti', as a valve amp user I'm not allowed to be into music......... :lol: ;)


PS Still waiting to read your reply to: Analysis Paralysis http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=2739


Sorry; I had forgotten all about that. I promise I'll get to it later :smoking:

Marco.

[Ali Tait]

Valve amps ROOL!!! :lolsign:

[The Grand Wazoo]

I can't promise that it will all be 'musical' observations, though!! According to the 'cognoscenti', as a valve amp user I'm not allowed to be into music......... :lol: ;).




Marco

I remember a salesman & a group of his acolytes pouring scourn & derision in a very vicious way, and in public, upon me because I had the temerity to make the observation that I didn't think the gear he was demonstrating conveyed much of a sense of a soundstage.

I walked away vowing never to put a penny in certain people's pockets (dealers & manufacturers), leaving them tittering to themselves - they no doubt went back to tapping their feet in a highly rhythmic manner. Now that is SALESMANSHIP!!

I can't help wondering why certain manufacturers bother to sell speakers in pairs if "a soundstage is irrelevant" - their words...........ho hum

[Steve Toy]

It has been said that talking [writing] about music is like dancing about architechture.

Enough said, although talking about music is fine in the section allocated to this particular purpose.

Specific references to music programme in hi-fi reviewing are useful but not essential.

[The Grand Wazoo]

It has been said that talking [writing] about music is like dancing about architechture.

Enough said, although talking about music is fine in the section allocated to this particular purpose.

Specific references to music programme in hi-fi reviewing are useful but not essential.

Specific references are only meaningful when they are used to elaborate a point.

Alternatively, it is of course very useful when the reader intimately knows the recording being used and their system has the same shortcomings as the writer's system had before. (I don't know...........something like a hump in the mid-bass perhaps............? .....ahem!)

That's all fine as far as it goes, but it leads to things like every exhibitor in a show using the same album - Dark Side of the Moon, anyone.....Dire Straits, for God's sake............

The ultimate conclusion is that you only listen to what makes your system sound 'good' and that's not what a hi-fi is for is it?

A few quotes from Frank Zappa are called for here.....

'Everybody believes in something and everybody, by virtue of the fact that they believe in something, uses that something to support their own existence'.

'One of my favorite philosophical tenets is that people will agree with you only if they already agree with you. You do not change people's minds'.


And this, I feel is kind of relavent to digital music -
'The computer can't tell you the emotional story. It can give you the exact mathematical design, but what's missing is the eyebrows'.

[Marco]

Everybody believes in something and everybody, by virtue of the fact that they believe in something, uses that something to support their own existence


I like that - how true! I think that Mr Dunn should acknowledge that he comes into this category with regard to his choice of hi-fi equipment the same as anyone else! ;)


Specific references are only meaningful when they are used to elaborate a point.


I completely agree, Chris. In that context they can be extremely meaningful, but *only* if someone else knows the piece of music being referred to as intimately as the person making the reference - and that is far from always the case. Otherwise, they are virtually meaningless.

I find this particularly true when people use Classical music as a reference, which is something I rarely listen to. My eyes glaze over, as they may as well be talking about Champagne than Chopin.

I think all we can do when describing equipment in relation to music or 'sound' is write what's genuine and comes from the heart - and hope that someone else relates to it in the way we do, rather than attempting to analyse the relationship between music and hi-fi through the eyes of Karajan.

Marco.

[The Grand Wazoo]

There's another quotation that I love which is particularly apt here. It goes something like:

'If the only tool that you have is a hammer, then every problem looks like a nail'
(Abraham Maslow).

I used to use it quite a lot in reference to the foreign policies of a certain Mr Bush!

Yours open mindedly
Chris

[MartinT]

I find this particularly true when people use Classical music as a reference, which is something I rarely listen to. My eyes glaze over, as they may as well be talking about Champagne than Chopin.

I agree only to a point. If you describe to me the sound of a system using, say, big band music my eyes may well glaze over too, but you could still impart useful information about the acoustic, dynamics, stereo staging etc. that I could understand. When I describe my system using classical music as a reference, I do try to confer a general idea of performance rather than just wax lyrical over the music, which I understand has minority interest.

By the way, when a friend wants to listen to my system I usually suggest they bring their own music. However, I will always play them one classical piece as I believe it brings more understanding about performance but, more importantly, it often generates a surprising interest in what I'm playing. Classical just doesn't register on people's horizons but it doesn't mean there isn't latent interest waiting to be piqued.

[Marco]

Hi Martin,


I agree only to a point. If you describe to me the sound of a system using, say, big band music my eyes may well glaze over too, but you could still impart useful information about the acoustic, dynamics, stereo staging etc. that I could understand.


I think that's very true, and indeed is something I try to do when describing equipment, as no doubt you'll have noticed :)

I don't think that you can ever include too much information in such circumstances, but I also don't think that it's appropriate or meritorious to gauge someone's 'status' as a music lover depending on how they relate to music through the performance of their equipment, which is effectively what the infamous Mr Dunn is attempting to do in order to classify solid-state amplifiers as the de facto choice of music lovers.

All you achieve then is to make people feel paranoid and question themselves (am I a 'genuine' music lover or just a 'hi-fi freak'?) and in return stifle any interest they may have had in expressing their choice of equipment in musical terms - in fact, for the more easily influenced amongst us, you could stop people contributing altogether! People 'get' what they get when listening to their systems, and so should be left alone to get on with it.

What's important is that you stay true to yourself and that what is written is genuine and heart-felt, and not some contrived 'epistle' designed to impress or appease the sensibilities of the 'cognoscenti' in an attempt to appear as 'knowledgeable' amongst one's peers.


By the way, when a friend wants to listen to my system I usually suggest they bring their own music. However, I will always play them one classical piece as I believe it brings more understanding about performance but, more importantly, it often generates a surprising interest in what I'm playing. Classical just doesn't register on people's horizons but it doesn't mean there isn't latent interest waiting to be piqued.

Good point, and how very true.

Don't get me wrong, I like Classical music - just not sitting listening to it at home. It's a different ball game when my wife and I sometimes attend a ballet or go to see the BBC National Orchestra of Wales play live at one of the local halls, where there is some form of 'visual stimulus' to accompany the undoubtedly beautiful music.

Without the visual stimulus of dancing or watching an orchestra in full flow, Classical music struggles to hold my attention, which is why I can't 'get into' it at home. I enjoy mostly music that's 'funky', rhythmic and beat-driven, and preferably with vocals present - something you can tap your feet to. 'Instrumentals', therefore, aren't really my thing, although I enjoy Jazz music - for me it's got more 'soul', and I mean in the 'black' sense of the word. It isn't 'po-faced' in the way of Classical, if you see what I mean. I also love listening to talented or interesting/unusual vocalists, but find Opera, for example, somewhat 'heavy', so Rock and Pop, etc, suits my tastes much better - that's just me :smoking:

One thing I do dislike immensely is the snobbery and pretentiousness which often perpetrates the following of Classical music, such that one can almost sense the snooty disdain of aficionados when declaring a relative non-interest in the genre; and this is sadly quite prevalent in the music section of some other forums.

Marco.

[MartinT]

One thing I do dislike immensely is the snobbery and pretentiousness which often perpetrates the following of Classical music, such that one can almost sense the snooty disdain of aficionados when declaring a relative non-interest in the genre; and this is sadly quite prevalent in the music section of some other forums.

Hear hear! I come across snootiness in both the Festival Hall and the Hammersmith Apollo, it seems to occur whenever people have narrow-minded views about music instead of enjoying a wide range of genres. For me, a Joan Armatrading song can be as emotional and direct as Mozart's Requiem. There is no need to choose, just to acknowledge the creativity of such masters.

[The Grand Wazoo]

One thing I do dislike immensely is the snobbery which often perpetrates the following of Classical music, such that one can almost sense the snooty disdain of aficionados when declaring a relative non-interest in the genre, and this is sadly quite prevalent in the music section of some other forums.

There are few things that make me as frustrated as musical snobbery does. I also detest the term 'Serious Music' as is often applied to it - the most serious piece of music I know is 'Man of the World' by Fleetwood Mac - why is it less worthy than say, Haydn's Violin Concerto No. 2 in D major for example?

I love Classical music, but it's not my main interest. The body of 'Classical' work was produced between 1750 to 1825, and by a handful of composers, usually commissioned by the aristocracy in order to boost their already over-inflated egos. Most of the rest of music was made by and for real people with real lives - I know which I think is the more serious!

However, my life is richer for having a wider ranging taste in music than the bigots - those with that attitude are the ones who are losing out - let them get on with it.

Chris

[Barry]

.........
However, my life is richer for having a wider ranging taste in music than the bigots - those with that attitude are the ones who are losing out - let them get on with it.

Chris

Hear Hear!

All styles of music are important because they have been written/composed for enjoyment by a wider audience. Just because a particular type of music is personally disliked doesn't diminish its importance. For example, I happen to dislike rap music and hip-hop, however I recognise the skill and talent involved and the fact that a lot of people out there do like it; it is no way less important than any other form of music.

It also follows that music reproduction systems, regardless of the technology used, are there to serve anything that's put through them, whether that might be music composed in the 13th century, heavy metal, jazz, the spoken word, opera, birdsong, etc. ..........(oh! and rap and hip-hop)

Regards
Barry

[Haselsh1]

I absolutely adore valves and would dearly love a pair of Icon Audio monoblock KT88 power amps but I have now found a system that is real music to my ears and so on that basis, I am sticking with what I have. My main issue with valve amplifiers is the cost per unit pleasure. How this would be measurable I do not know but as they are just so expensive, I'll have to give them a miss from now on.

I recently bought a pair of Audiolab 8000M monoblocks for 490 pounds all in that are two years old. Where oh were could I find a pair of mono valve power amps for the same money...??? As stated, I now have a system that produces for me, 'That sound'. I'm hoping I don't get the upgrade bug just for the sake of it as I really do want to expand my vinyl collection from now on.

[DSJR]

However, my life is richer for having a wider ranging taste in music...
Chris


Sums it up beautifully. Well said sir!

"Man Of The World" was my anthem for years - a wonderful song!

[REM]

There is another aspect to this debate which has nothing to do with the sound or musical qualities of audio gear but everything to do with the psychological make up of the listener. I find it enough of a PITA sometimes being into vinyl and constantly worrying about scratches/fingerprints/dust/worn or (horror) chipped styli but to add in another set of variables in the form of toobs would freak me out no end. I know I'm being neurotic but I just couldn't live with a valve amp forever fretting over such things as has the bias drifted, was that valve glowing that bright yesterday, did it take this long to warm up etc etc.
Obviously if none of this bothers you then fine but the major trauma I've just been through having to get my pre amp recapped (it's 11 years old) no sir not for me I'd be a jibbering wreck within a week of owning a valve amp.:eek::eek:

Cheers
Mr. Sandman, sorry, Ralph

[Spectral Morn]

There is another aspect to this debate which has nothing to do with the sound or musical qualities of audio gear but everything to do with the psychological make up of the listener. I find it enough of a PITA sometimes being into vinyl and constantly worrying about scratches/fingerprints/dust/worn or (horror) chipped styli but to add in another set of variables in the form of toobs would freak me out no end. I know I'm being neurotic but I just couldn't live with a valve amp forever fretting over such things as has the bias drifted, was that valve glowing that bright yesterday, did it take this long to warm up etc etc.
Obviously if none of this bothers you then fine but the major trauma I've just been through having to get my pre amp recapped (it's 11 years old) no sir not for me I'd be a jibbering wreck within a week of owning a valve amp.:eek::eek:

Cheers
Mr. Sandman, sorry, Ralph

Hi Ralph

It goes with the territory...but I can appreciate where you are coming from. For me most of the time the quality I get from the valve products I use out weigh the issues.....until they happen and then I ask my self long hard question like you ask. I shake my head and smile at the years of listening pleasure given via glowing glass and I just get on with it.

It is worth it IMHO.


Regards D S D L

[Ali Tait]

The tweakiness of valve amps is one of the things I love about them.It's very satisfying substantially improving the sound by changing a coupling cap or trying some new valves.

[Dr. Flicker]

Talking the merits of tube vs SS is fun, and can go on for days, months, years. Even within the tube community, you can debate endlessly over SET vs Push Pull...hell, you can even debate which 300B is better in a SET design.

But at the end of the day, audio is about listening. And luckily, we all come equipped with the best testing devices ever invented...our ears.

When I want to convince someone about the merits of tube (SET to be precise), I don't say anything...I invite them over for a nice cocktail and a listen.

The procedure is very simple...

1. Sit them in a comfortable listening chair (mine happens to be a vintage Karuselli chair designed by Yrjö Kukkapuro)

2. Put on Holly Cole's Don't Smoke in Bed

3. Listen

Assimilation complete.

[Spectral Morn]

Talking the merits of tube vs SS is fun, and can go on for days, months, years. Even within the tube community, you can debate endlessly over SET vs Push Pull...hell, you can even debate which 300B is better in a SET design.

But at the end of the day, audio is about listening. And luckily, we all come equipped with the best testing devices ever invented...our ears.

When I want to convince someone about the merits of tube (SET to be precise), I don't say anything...I invite them over for a nice cocktail and a listen.

The procedure is very simple...

1. Sit them in a comfortable listening chair (mine happens to be a vintage Karuselli chair designed by Yrjö Kukkapuro)

2. Put on Holly Cole's Don't Smoke in Bed

3. Listen

Assimilation complete.

Only on your third post and I can see you will fit in here brilliantly..... Great music (love Holly Cole...Temptation particularly), designer furniture, and taste in gear.

"We will get most of them in the end...oh yes we will" ;)Resistance is futile...

http://www.e-potpourri.com/index.php/2008/04/08/yrjo-kukkapuros-retro-styled-karuselli-chair-the-designer-swivelling-rocking-chair-with-bond-appeal/

The chair mentioned..
I like this one http://www.e-potpourri.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/04/retro-styled-karuselli-chair-white.jpghttp://www.e-potpourri.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/04/retro-styled-karuselli-chair-black.jpg


Regards D S D L

[Dr. Flicker]

Mine is a vintage one in nicely aged/caramelized leather, and a slightly altered model to the "ususal" one. Very comfy. An essential, but often overlooked key component of any hi-fi set up.


http://img189.imageshack.us/img189/8921/11189221.jpg (http://img189.imageshack.us/i/11189221.jpg/)



love Holly Cole...Temptation particularly

I love all her stuff, except the latest left me a little wanting for some reason. Or perhaps it was that her local jazz diva rival (Molly Johnson) just seems a bit better these days.

If you like Holly, you might like the recording her band (Pitch & Davis) put out back in the 90's called Feast.



We will get most of them in the end...oh yes we will" Resistance is futile...


Female jazz voices and 300B tubes is a combo few can resist. 300B midrange magic is usually what clinches the deal regardless of what the plus-minus columns look like.

[Spectral Morn]

Mine is a vintage one in nicely aged/caramelized leather, and a slightly altered model to the "ususal" one. Very comfy. An essential, but often overlooked key component of any hi-fi set up.


http://img189.imageshack.us/img189/8921/11189221.jpg (http://img189.imageshack.us/i/11189221.jpg/)




I love all her stuff, except the latest left me a little wanting for some reason. Or perhaps it was that her local jazz diva rival (Molly Johnson) just seems a bit better these days.

If you like Holly, you might like the recording her band (Pitch & Davis) put out back in the 90's called Feast.




Female jazz voices and 300B tubes is a combo few can resist. 300B midrange magic is usually what clinches the deal regardless of what the plus-minus columns look like.

Ah thats a nice chair. I will have to look out for Feast. I agree about 300B tubes but to my taste I prefer 6c33c's or 845...more power and most of the subtlety of a 300B...though not all.


Regards D S D L

[Dr. Flicker]

I was a little concerned about lacking power when I put the 300B SET in my system with the existing speakers. They are apparently 91db, which is borderline speaker efficiency if you want decent spls when required.

I was pleasantly surprised how powerful my 1005DT is (as opposed to an earlier 300B SET it replaced), and can produce serious volume levels without ever having to go beyond 12 O'clock regardless of the recording I'm listening to. Clipping isn't a major problem with tubes anyway, but I think it's rarely even mildly clipping.

I seriously considered the 845 for the extra power, and the 6c33c wasn't even on my radar at the time, but I guess I have become a bit of a die-hard 300B fan, and I'm glad/lucky I don't suffer from power envy on my current set up.

But I am a bit fickle, so who knows what the future will bring.


Back to Holly...I hear her stuff is out on 200g virgin vinyl (not sure if vinyl is your thing), and cut from the original master on Bernie Grundman's all-tube cutting system.

[Spectral Morn]

I was a little concerned about lacking power when I put the 300B SET in my system with the existing speakers. They are apparently 91db, which is borderline speaker efficiency if you want decent spls when required.

I was pleasantly surprised how powerful my 1005DT is (as opposed to an earlier 300B SET it replaced), and can produce serious volume levels without ever having to go beyond 12 O'clock regardless of the recording I'm listening to. Clipping isn't a major problem with tubes anyway, but I think it's rarely even mildly clipping.

I seriously considered the 845 for the extra power, and the 6c33c wasn't even on my radar at the time, but I guess I have become a bit of a die-hard 300B fan, and I'm glad/lucky I don't suffer from power envy on my current set up.

But I am a bit fickle, so who knows what the future will bring.


Back to Holly...I hear her stuff is out on 200g virgin vinyl (not sure if vinyl is your thing), and cut from the original master on Bernie Grundman's all-tube cutting system.

Yes vinyl is my thing....Holly on vinyl, that would be excellent. Thanks for the info I will check it out.


Regards D S D L

[DSJR]

Our ears may be fairly adequate, but the thing that processes the info given - our brain - is the most temperamental and easily fooled device of all, so there!!!!!!!!!

Amazing how many audible "differences" disappear when sight is taken away from the equation.

If you think I'm having a go again, I'm not. I can't wait to get the Quad II's running again and rue the fact I have my Croft pre in a cabinet, when I want to look inside and see the warm orangey glow from within (mine has a thick "mesh" top)..

All good fun and I do envy those who can afford something that sounds wonderful and also looks the part :)

[trane]

hi, there, all,
just finished reading the previous pages - great discussion :)
to join up, i myself am a valve afficionado for ~25 years - with some derailment towards sand amps...
and why converted back? for MUSIC, in capitals, so simple the reason is.
in details, first i used ss amps (of course) since they were the only equipment produced for listening to music available here. i live in hungary, and all hi-fi madness came from the west, in the '80s, in the form of, first, the quad 405, then, in home-made sand amps (rather, replicas of western related gear), and later hungarian-designed and made real hi-fi equipment. in the late '80s the first audio dealers appeared carrying creek, ion, cambridge audio, musical fidelity, cyrus - and Audio Innovations and Audio Note. and that was something that made a real change...
i remember a show held in a relatively big city hall, where all the AI line was presented as building up from the smallest to the most competitive firing in the end via AN E speakers and backed by the Voyd TT range, using only 'normal press' LPs. it was then when i got perfectly obsessed with the valve thing, and have remained so up till now.
in the meantime i switched for some ss amps including various creek amps, and our truly outstanding Etalon gear, finally even the YBA and its variants, but none could convey the musical expression that tubes are capable of.
however, here i must emphasise, just as some other mates have done before, i am speaking about 'correctly designed and built' tube amps.
the model i lived the most with was not a pricey make: AI's Series 400 MK I (at ebay, when it extremely rarely appears, price is below 400 pounds). but this pp used class a and applied no feedback at all, thus, produced MUSIC with PRaT, emotion, air, transparency - everything i was and still am after when deciding on taking an amp home. the design was actually the same as that of the AN Oto Phono, mr. Qvortrup when switched for AN after his AI period, just re-cased and re-named it as that...
BUT now i 'evolved' to be a convert. why?, you may ask, with a good reason. which may sound even more silly when explained, even knowing that when i decided to go tranny i had an YBA Integré DT Delta at home for a week to make the decision well-founded - and the little AI S400 performed over the 5-times costlier YBA in all aspects of MUSIC and hi-fi...
then why? i can not determine whether it is laziness or truly financial considerations mixed with reliability issues... but the reason is the valves themselves. simply put, i got a bit tired of changing the power tubes in every 2nd year, and the others in 3-4 years, and when a n.o.s. tube goes down before it's due, to replace it in the pair or the quad for the best sonics... that's what made me step the change.
however, what i was after in terms of 'valve sound' i managed to find in only one manufacturer's gear: Croft's. no other sand-make could come that close to tube sound that the Croft Integrated (and the other Crofts may as well be also capable of) can. there is only one minor caveat that i am not truly in terms with it, if you're interested you can read it in the accordingly titled topic here, but this Croft is by far the best ss amp with a true valve voicing i ever heard. thus, if anyone is for a sand make, do not miss it - provided you're happy enough to grab one for its being discontinued...

[DSJR]

... and never to return..

Never fear, the new pre/power combo may well be even better and not that expensive at £1400 or so...

[trane]

... and never to return...

hi, may i ask you, please, to elaborate what d'ya mean by this note? i believe it must do a lot with what was just hinted at at the croft topic, but the point was not truly discussed there, and as an outsider from hungary, i learnt only that there something went pretty wrong between mr. Croft and that Amar guy... so? :scratch: thanks :)

[Giant Haystacks]

hi some lovely seats there ,but you would be a little nervous letting me sitting on them at over 20 stone ,
i havent read all posts, but a little on my findings on 300b using a arion 300b single ended we had access to jj tesla , cetron, kron, western electric, output valves ,
a beautiful wife friendly sound ,very nice ,very warm and kind ,and the bass which initially sounded big, is an exagerated one . there was a slight veil which im not sure if other amplifier designs could remove , i am not being critical it is still a very fine sound,top class , some other issues these 300bs are now being auctioned so nos is to expensive , a lot of the 300b users have converted to type 50s which are mostly rca and western electric sylvania in bulbous shape and standard coke bottle shape both the 50 and 300b valves were used in a western electric cinema amp
so the type 50s are still quite available and 300b amps can be converted a little less power so ill read more of the posts and contribute my bit later