View Full Version : On and off or on all the time ?
MikeMusic
23-06-2012, 07:55
Recently I've been turning the kit off during the day while I'm at work
Turn on when I get home
Usually it would be around half an hour before I listen to it which seems 'about right'
Didn't log the times yesterday but was listening to a new-to-me Robert Palmer LP.
Didn't sound as good as I remember the CD, broken, incomplete
This was around 5pm.
Think hthe kit had been on around an hour but not at all sure
Later I'm comparing kit, same LP,
Much better sound around 8pm
Anyone have strong opinions on warm up times or leaving on all the time ?
This was PS Audio PPP powering Naim 82, Hicap, Naim 500
If I remember right someone once said leave the LP12 spinning. Now that does seem over the top
I've turned off today and will experiment again tonight
sq225917
23-06-2012, 08:34
You seem to be testing two variables at once, warm up time and time of day. it's not going to lead to any valid conclusion. I'd suggest testing warm up duration at the same time of night on subsequent days.
MikeMusic
23-06-2012, 09:08
I'll be testing again late afternoon and this evening roughly same times
Will have a go at the same track a few times tomorrow
We're some way down a country road no where near any industry or office blocks, but overhead power lines
Wasn't testing properly yesterday, just noticed how very different it sounded
Do you stay on or off and on ?
I leave my Naim gear on 24/7 - I wouldn't do the same with your turntable though.
MikeMusic
23-06-2012, 10:19
And recommended by many.
I'll be experimenting turning different kit off for the day
As I'm not playing the system for many hours a day it seems a waste of electric
I used to leave the kit on 24/7, Mike, but I've been trying to get my leccy bill down and now power up when I get home and listen after 1/2 hour. If I remember, I power it up just as I'm leaving work so it's ready to listen to when I arrive home ;)
Hi Mike,
Anyone have strong opinions on warm up times or leaving on all the time ?
This was PS Audio PPP powering Naim 82, Hicap, Naim 500
If I remember right someone once said leave the LP12 spinning. Now that does seem over the top
I've turned off today and will experiment again tonight
When I had my Naim system, I left it on 24/7, as when it was switched off for any length of time (more than an hour), it took several hours to come back on song, sonically, and I couldn't be arsed with that, particularly as it sounded rather thin, 'reedy' and bass-light, in the interim.
Also, one has to choose between being environmentally friendly (undoubtedly an enviable goal) and what's best in terms of protecting the kit and maintaining its functional longevity. Statistically, if equipment is going to fail, it'll more likely do so upon 'switch-on', as the instant power surge is what 'taxes' electrical components most.
Think about it this way: how often does a light-bulb blow, during its normal course of operation, or a fuse inside a circuit?
Therefore, continually switching your gear on and off is a pretty sure way of limiting its life span. Audio equipment not only sounds best when operating under a steady electrical state, but generally lasts longer too, which is why all of my solid-state gear (CDP, DAC and T/T PSU) is left switched on 24/7.
Valve gear is a totally different ball game. It should always be switched off, when not in use, because as there are much higher voltages involved, and as such valve equipment is generally a little more unstable, it's simply unsafe to leave it switched on permanently.
Not only that, but it would be a huge waste of electricity (expensive, as valve amps are generally more wasteful of power, especially those which operate in full Class A), and also valve life, which is something very important to consider if one is using rare and expensive NOS tubes!
Hope this helps :cool:
Marco.
MikeMusic
23-06-2012, 12:12
I used to leave the kit on 24/7, Mike, but I've been trying to get my leccy bill down and now power up when I get home and listen after 1/2 hour. If I remember, I power it up just as I'm leaving work so it's ready to listen to when I arrive home ;)
Trying to get the balance between electric usage and good listening.
Yesterday was a big surprise
MikeMusic
23-06-2012, 12:16
Hi Mike,
When I had my Naim system, I left it on 24/7, as whenever it was switched off for any length of time (more than an hour), it took several hours to come back on song, sonically, and I couldn't be arsed with that, particularly as it sounded rather thin, 'reedy' and bass-light, in the interim.
Also, one has to choose between being environmentally friendly (undoubtedly an enviable goal) and what's best in terms of protecting the kit and maintaining its functional longevity. Statistically, if equipment is going to fail, it'll do so upon 'switch-on', as the instant power surge is what taxes electrical circuits most.
Therefore, continually switching your gear on and off is a pretty sure way of limiting its life span. Audio equipment not only sounds best when operating under a steady electrical state, but generally lasts longer too, which is why all of my solid-state gear (CDP and DAC) is left switched on 24/7.
Hope this helps :cool:
Marco.
Thanks Marco
Keeping the hifi on is about the only non green thing I do so I have some slack
:)
'Course as a *household* we have all sorts of non green usage, Sally being an honorary member of the Royal Family and not having a care about money at all
I'm going to have a play later today and if the sound issues I stumbled on yesterday repeat then it will certainly have to stay on
Oh yes. There is also that 'bump' when I turn the power amp on. Doesn't sound clever
I have tried both. I can't say that the difference was night and day. What I found affected the sound more was the ambient temperature of the room, so I assume this is related to the speaker driver suspension.
So far as in-rush current is concerned, you can solve this easily and cheaply by connecting a thermistor across the live IEC terminal (I use CL60's), or you can use a power on delay circuit which uses relays. Mike, this would eliminate your "turn-on thump".
http://uk.farnell.com/ge-sensing-thermometrics/cl-60/thermistor-series-cl/dp/1653469?ref=lookahead
I turn all my equipment off.
MikeMusic
23-06-2012, 12:51
I have tried both. I can't say that the difference was night and day. What I found affected the sound more was the ambient temperature of the room, so I assume this is related to the speaker driver suspension.
So far as in-rush current is concerned, you can solve this easily and cheaply by connecting a thermistor across the live IEC terminal (I use CL60's), or you can use a power on delay circuit which uses relays. Mike, this would eliminate your "turn-on thump".
http://uk.farnell.com/ge-sensing-thermometrics/cl-60/thermistor-series-cl/dp/1653469?ref=lookahead
I turn all my equipment off.
The difference I heard yesterday, not really paying attention was large.
If I stay on I won't worry about the thump as it will be rare, but if I do will that thermistor interfere with the mains and maybe degrade quality ?
Just remembered when I started I wanted to put what I was listening to. Now it is
Country Joe & The Fish - Together
The thermistor is fitted in the live mains feed between the IEC live and the transformer live input. How is this going to affect sound Q?
Rob,
Just be careful, though, that fitting such things doesn't end up 'sitting' on the sound. Personally, I like to keep things (electrical circuits and otherwise) as simple as is possible.
Naim, for example, would never fit such devices to their equipment, for the above reason.
Marco.
The thermistor is fitted in the live mains feed between the IEC live and the transformer live input. How is this going to affect sound Q?
By raising impedance? Have you measured the 'before & after', as it were?
Marco.
Marco, no I haven't measured it. However the first time I came across the fitting of
CL60s in the mains feed was when building my Pass F2. I assumed that if it was good enough for Nelson Pass, then it was good enough......?
I have also retro fitted them in my Gainclones and I cannot discern any SQ difference.
Hey, golden rule: if you can't hear any difference, then don't worry about it! :)
Marco.
So far as in-rush current is concerned, you can solve this easily and cheaply by connecting a thermistor across the live IEC terminal (I use CL60's)
Hmm, resistance at 25°C is 10Ω. I wouldn't want to put a 10 Ohm resistor in series with my mains inlet. Defeats all attempts at achieving low impedance from a good mains supply and good cables.
Thanks, Martin. That kind of confirms my suspicions....
Marco.
MikeMusic
23-06-2012, 14:08
The thermistor is fitted in the live mains feed between the IEC live and the transformer live input. How is this going to affect sound Q?
I can break things by standing next to them:(
Plenty of room for manoeuvre if I start fiddling
Various Uncut - Dazed and Confused - suits me well
JazzBones
23-06-2012, 14:10
As a Naim amp user I leave my Naim gear and seperateTT psu unit switched on 24/7. I've tried the switching off method but its always taken time to get the system back to how it was. I only switch everything off when leaving home for any length of time such as holidays. This I've done for nearly 30 years and I realise that my enjoyment of music via my system is going to cost me but so do other pursuits.
Think on this: We leave our TVs, PVRs, DVD player/recorder, bedside clock radio, fridge, deep freezers, microwave clocks, security lights, boilers and so on switched on all the time but take that as okay:rolleyes: If you really want to turn green die and have a tree planted on top of you, you'd be the best fertilizer that tree could have.
:piano:
walpurgis
23-06-2012, 21:55
I turn my gear off (sometimes forget though). I'm always fascinated by the way the system sounds a bit flat to start off and then 'comes on song' after about half an hour and steadily improves for a while until it sounds so damn good I can't believe I own something that marvelous!
Thanks Marco
Keeping the hifi on is about the only non green thing I do so I have some slack
:)
'Course as a *household* we have all sorts of non green usage, Sally being an honorary member of the Royal Family and not having a care about money at all
I'm going to have a play later today and if the sound issues I stumbled on yesterday repeat then it will certainly have to stay on
Oh yes. There is also that 'bump' when I turn the power amp on. Doesn't sound clever
But your (and mine) particular amps don't use a lot of electricity if no music is playing. Having said that, the switch on thump may be disconcerting, but it is harmless.
Hmm, resistance at 25°C is 10Ω. I wouldn't want to put a 10 Ohm resistor in series with my mains inlet. Defeats all attempts at achieving low impedance from a good mains supply and good cables.
That figure is for series connection; VDRs should be connected in shunt, across the supply.
My preamp and phonostage (when used) are powered up all the time. The power amp is switched on when I want to listen to my system (5 hours a day, on average).
I don't notice any 'warm up' time, or time taken for the system to settle down. It may be that, at times, my system can sound "nicer" when used late at night. This might be due to the lack of mains 'hash' generated by the neighbours at that time of night, but is more likely to be due to the effect of consumption of a certain amount of either a decent claret, brandy or whisk(e)y!
That figure is for series connection; VDRs should be connected in shunt, across the supply.
Look at the spec sheet, Barry. It's an in-rush current protector. Admittedly its resistance reduces once it warms up, but I still wouldn't like it in circuit.
If you tried to put a 10 Ohm VDR across the mains, you would be looking at a fabulous smoke spiral and a fresh pair of underwear pretty sharpish.
Look at the spec sheet, Barry. It's an in-rush current protector.
If you tried to put a 10 Ohm VDR across the mains, you would be looking at a fabulous smoke spiral and a fresh pair of underwear pretty sharpish.
Yes I know - and it's intended to be connected in series. VDRs are intended to be placed in shunt across the supply. The VDR in my Olsen mains distribution strip is such a device, connected in parallel across the output of the Schaffner filter block.
I realise that, but a VDR (Voltage Dependent Resistor) used that way is for spike protection, connected across the mains as you say. The CLs we're discussing are for current in-rush protection, series connected, and would help to reduce switch-on thump, which Mike the o/p raised as an issue.
I find there is a difference in sound quility after an hour or 3 with my valve gear but find the main improvment in sound is late night listenining when there is little else hanging off the mains when everyone else has buggered off to bed
And your hearing is sensitised by the low ambient noise level...
MikeMusic
24-06-2012, 10:49
As a Naim amp user I leave my Naim gear and seperateTT psu unit switched on 24/7. I've tried the switching off method but its always taken time to get the system back to how it was. I only switch everything off when leaving home for any length of time such as holidays. This I've done for nearly 30 years and I realise that my enjoyment of music via my system is going to cost me but so do other pursuits.
Think on this: We leave our TVs, PVRs, DVD player/recorder, bedside clock radio, fridge, deep freezers, microwave clocks, security lights, boilers and so on switched on all the time but take that as okay:rolleyes: If you really want to turn green die and have a tree planted on top of you, you'd be the best fertilizer that tree could have.
:piano:
My Naim kit seems as fussy about being turned off
I turn non hifi kit off when not in use.
I can believe that the average TV (maybe CRT) uses more power in stand by when being watched.
How so ?
It is watched for 2-3 hours a day and in stand by 21-22 hours a day
Turning off stuff over the place would save a lot. Hifi excepted it seems
:)
MikeMusic
24-06-2012, 10:51
But your (and mine) particular amps don't use a lot of electricity if no music is playing. Having said that, the switch on thump may be disconcerting, but it is harmless.
Good to know and good to know
:)
MikeMusic
24-06-2012, 10:56
I turn my gear off (sometimes forget though). I'm always fascinated by the way the system sounds a bit flat to start off and then 'comes on song' after about half an hour and steadily improves for a while until it sounds so damn good I can't believe I own something that marvelous!
Hadn't tested it before
Yesterday I did. No bad thing to keep playing the same track when its Mavis Staples - Eyes on the prize
On at 6pm - Sounded 'off' but not as bad as I thought it would
6.30pm - better but not right
7pm - better again, still not right
7.30pm - another improvement
8.30pm - This sounded very good, but I now had to play the complete album
So a small test says 2.5 hours before it is acceptable
Could be it was even better later
Conclusion seems t be I have to leave it on to hear at its best
Mavis Staples - We'll never turn back - is an essential for your collection
Currently playing Slates - The Fall
DAC goes off because it's all running in class A including the DAC chip. Amp stays on because it runs cool when it's idling. CD transport goes off when I remember to try and preserve the laser.
There is a DEFINITE difference in sound when it's all warmed up.
MikeMusic
25-06-2012, 20:06
DAC goes off because it's all running in class A including the DAC chip. Amp stays on because it runs cool when it's idling. CD transport goes off when I remember to try and preserve the laser.
There is a DEFINITE difference in sound when it's all warmed up.
Thanks. I'll have a go at turning just the CD off and test
Currently playing Pylon - Chomp
hifinutt
26-06-2012, 03:03
used to find my tom evans vibe sounded much better after 2 hours or so playing however the arc pre i use currently sounds good from the off and of course being valve i do not leave it on !! the bel canto stuff i have is designed to stay on so i leave it on 24/7 and minimal leccie
unfortunately i have to warm my amp/speakers with music running for fairly long periods. if they've been switched off, unused for a while I'll run them for 3 or 4 days at very low volume. Adds a bit of heat to the room, worth it though.
MikeMusic
26-06-2012, 08:01
unfortunately i have to warm my amp/speakers with music running for fairly long periods. if they've been switched off, unused for a while I'll run them for 3 or 4 days at very low volume. Adds a bit of heat to the room, worth it though.
Speakers occurred to me
Is there a benefit in playing something through them at low volumes for you then ?
Currently : Wishbone Ash - Pilgrimage
Unless they're in a very cold room, the speakers after twenty years *shouldn't* require warming up.
Plenty of modern stuff that sounds great right from cold and stays that way. maybe one day you should try some :)
Speakers occurred to me
Is there a benefit in playing something through them at low volumes for you then ?
Currently : Wishbone Ash - Pilgrimage
yeah, it seems my speakers were developed to be run this way. don't ask me why, can't remember - something to do with the rubber surrounds and rear waves, blah, blah, blah :rolleyes:
Unless they're in a very cold room, the speakers after twenty years *shouldn't* require warming up.
Plenty of modern stuff that sounds great right from cold and stays that way. maybe one day you should try some :)
you wont get any of that modern stuff past my front door dave :lol:
trio leo
26-06-2012, 22:50
According to the Spectral instruction manual a 24 hour warm up period should be observed and then the unit should be left on permanently.
Apart from the odd power cut and box swapping, my system has been ON for 30 years, when in "standby mode" Albarry pre and mono-bloc amplifiers use a total of 8 watts, so I don't worry about power consumption.
I guess that user "hash" is worse early evening when everyone is using lots of leccy.
If you have any doubts about your equipment, switch off.
regards Al
Hi Al,
Good to see you checking in again - where've ya been? :)
Marco.
trio leo
27-06-2012, 00:08
Hi Marco,
Sorry I haven't posted for a while, been busy studying I suppose, I hope you are having good results with your system.
I thought mine was sounding ok, but then a friend brought a MusicWorks acrylic stand to put under the mains block, I do have an acrylic table with 4 feet at present, but this new solid unit is fantastic, it changed the system as though I had upgraded dramatically, everything opened up, music was more dynamic and tuneful.
Then he changed my OFC interconnects from head amp to pre for a pair of MIT matrix 6 interconnects, wow!! it lifted the system again, it was a revelation and the beauty is these items are not too expensive, so they are on the wish list.
Other things I've heard recently,, Green Mountain Audio speakers, stand mounted, beautiful, effortless presentation, well worth a listen IMO.
Albarry M1108 Flagship Mono-blocs, I think the M608's are for the money the best amplifiers you can buy, however, the new M1108's are a superb extension of the qualities the 608's present, and after testing a pair at home for a week I didn't want to give them back.
Some new speaker cable from Poland, I'm not sure of the name Audiostatic or something like that, it's cotton covered, bright red and sounds wonderful, to be fair we listened to it versus a £5,500 pair of MIT speaker cables and we all agreed it was a lot better, the best bit, it 's about £500 per 4 m pair.
Have you heard any more about going to Greg's for a listen?
Kind regards Al
Sorry I've wandered from the original post, maybe I should have started a new one, got carried away a bit. Al
Hi Al,
Hey, sounds like you've been busy! :eek:
I'm aware of the improvements the QS acrylic stuff brings to the party - it is very good and extremely effective.
The only thing is, it ties you into a never-ending spiral of continual upgrading (as there is always some new bit to add), which if you're not careful, can mean that you spend more time tweaking your system than listening to it...
I've been in that 'mode' before, when dabbling with Audio Works gear, and it's not a state of mind I like to be in. I prefer to have a 'sorted' stand solution, which one installs once, forgets about, and then simply enjoys the music.
I think you know where I'm coming from, but anyway, I'm sure you know what you're doing and are enjoying yourself! :cool:
Green Mountain Audio speakers have always intrigued me, so your comments are interesting, as are those about the Polish speaker cable. Perhaps you could mention more about the latter in the cable section, as I'm sure that people would be interested? :)
I'd love to pop over to your place sometime and have a listen, especially to that awesome T/T of yours, so give me a shout when you've finished fiddling!! :eyebrows: ;)
Marco.
Black Gate burn-in though... it's a bitch! Out of nowhere you get loads of grain, and then it mellows out, and then comes back...
Better keep these units on for a few weeks before switching on and off.
Used to turn off.
The refurb of the Lentek Integrated bypassed its mono/stereo switch and balance control (had a poor effect on sonics) and the on/off switch was bypassed, too: ergo, it was left on permanently.
The recent loss of sonics quality is thought to be because it has been left on for 6 years thus drying out the electrolytics.
All current gear is turned off until needed and sounds fine immediately it's turned on (as did the pre refurb Lentek).
I don't hold with the "leave it on" theory BUT that doesn't mean I don't know that some strange things can happen. Burn in, f'rinstance. The Marantz CD player sounded awful when first fired up; left it playing for a few days and Bingo! Night and Day.
MikeMusic
02-07-2012, 06:49
Used to turn off.
The refurb of the Lentek Integrated bypassed its mono/stereo switch and balance control (had a poor effect on sonics) and the on/off switch was bypassed, too: ergo, it was left on permanently.
The recent loss of sonics quality is thought to be because it has been left on for 6 years thus drying out the electrolytics.
All current gear is turned off until needed and sounds fine immediately it's turned on (as did the pre refurb Lentek).
I don't hold with the "leave it on" theory BUT that doesn't mean I don't know that some strange things can happen. Burn in, f'rinstance. The Marantz CD player sounded awful when first fired up; left it playing for a few days and Bingo! Night and Day.
I have an open mind.
I want good sound quality, a low elecrtic bill and kit that lasts.
If I'm n to going to listen for a day or so I turn off
Still to test how the Naim CDX is after being turned off...
Listening to The Damned - Smash it up
realysm42
02-07-2012, 09:16
Just a little remix to this question; if you do power everything off, do you do it by the mains, or use the power switch on the units themelves?
Is there any benefit to just using the mains switch to turn everything off and on in one go?
MikeMusic
02-07-2012, 09:23
Just a little remix to this question; if you do power everything off, do you do it by the mains, or use the power switch on the units themelves?
Is there any benefit to just using the mains switch to turn everything off and on in one go?
A mix
Power Amp off first, then PS Audio PPP which turns off HiCaps, CD, Record Deck,
then separately the Napsc, the box that supplies the lights for the Naim 82
Back on in reverse order
I don't know but I assume turning the lot off at the mains could be a bad thing
It's all soft-off from the PS Audio P10 in a programmed sequence, starting with the power amp. One button does it all.
MikeMusic
02-07-2012, 09:43
It's all soft-off from the PS Audio P10 in a programmed sequence, starting with the power amp. One button does it all.
Useful feature. Obvious when you think about it
realysm42
02-07-2012, 10:42
It's all soft-off from the PS Audio P10 in a programmed sequence, starting with the power amp. One button does it all.
If you didn't have that feature, how would you do it, or would you not have a preference?
I've always lef the amp and dac 'on' and used the mains switch to turn everything on, but I'm thinking that might have been what killed my M-dac in hindsight...
Power amp off first, then preamp then ancillaries.
I would never use the mains switch to power equipment on and off.
MikeMusic
02-07-2012, 10:51
Power amp off first, then preamp then ancillaries.
I would never use the mains switch to power equipment on and off.
How about
Power Amp
then
PPP which turns off HiCap PSUs and CD player ?
or best to turn all off on separately ?
Doesn't matter much, Mike.
MikeMusic
02-07-2012, 11:51
Thanks Martin
I'm keeping most of it on at least for the time being after my tests showed the sound was 'off' for a couple of hours. Yet to test the CD alone being off for a while
I used to leave everything on but I worried about the enormous energy storage in the Power Plant especially, and ultimately my electricity bill. There is a warm-up effect in my system, but it only needs 30-40 mins to sound at its best and I usually remember to power it up from my phone as I'm driving home.
MikeMusic
02-07-2012, 12:08
I used to leave everything on but I worried about the enormous energy storage in the Power Plant especially, and ultimately my electricity bill. There is a warm-up effect in my system, but it only needs 30-40 mins to sound at its best and I usually remember to power it up from my phone as I'm driving home.
Have you tested the sound at intervals ? - like what I did - and found 2 hours plus was required for the system to come on song
Utterly different kit of course
Only that I cannot hear any further change after about an hour or so.
MikeMusic
02-07-2012, 12:39
Only that I cannot hear any further change after about an hour or so.
I'll test my setup over a longer period and see what transpires.
Off next Saturday night if I remember and half hour intervals on Sunday am
WOStantonCS100
02-07-2012, 16:49
Late to the party; but, increasingly, I leave my (valved) phono pre and preamp on. I'm around the house most of the time; so, if spontaneous combustion arises I should be able to catch it in time. :lol: My power amp is SS. I turn that off nightly as well as all the other SS gear. On the valve gear, to me, it definitely sounds better if it's been on for a while.
MikeMusic
02-07-2012, 20:11
Late to the party; but, increasingly, I leave my (valved) phono pre and preamp on. I'm around the house most of the time; so, if spontaneous combustion arises I should be able to catch it in time. :lol: My power amp is SS. I turn that off nightly as well as all the other SS gear. On the valve gear, to me, it definitely sounds better if it's been on for a while.
Good in the winter
:)
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