Super tweeters?

[Spur07]

Hi all,

does anyone here on AOS use super tweeters? just wondering how they integrate with the speakers - do both receive the same signal, or can they be used to filter out or bypass the extreme upper frequencies from the main speaker? :scratch:


Paul

[northwest]

No, I don't. But I really like the idea and most who know say the QUAD ESL benefits from them. I really need to build myself a pair and try them. I would hook them up piggy backing off the speaker cables feeding the ESL's.

[DSJR]

The problem with the ESL is a beaming treble and a super tweeter is probably going to aid this as much as anything else.

When this became an expensive commercial reality, I believe that many of the touted ones actually came in below 10kHz, so would be very audible. The Tannoy one only went up to 27kHz anyway so little more than the tweeter already fitted methinks.

I know the Harbeth SHL5 has one, but whether it's really needed I have no idea as measured plots indicate the ehf rolls off gently above 17kHz or thereabouts. In the classic HF1300/HF2000 or Coles combination, the Coles was often wired out of phase with the HF1300 and brought in at 10khz or so, thereby helping (by fudging it) to minimise the peak in the Hf1300 before it nosedived at 14kHz. Using the Coles in the Spendor BC1's helped engineers to hear the 625 line TV "line-whistle" I believe, and wasn't there a tax advantage??????

The best thing for cost reasons is to try the piezo tweeter modules from Maplin and use a low value? inline cap to bring it in as high as possible. Jimmy H did this with his Impulse speakers and despite using CD and not actually hearing anything from these little things, we were convinced we could hear "something" different - and better? - with their use :)

[Stratmangler]

No, I don't. But I really like the idea and most who know say the QUAD ESL benefits from them. I really need to build myself a pair and try them. I would hook them up piggy backing off the speaker cables feeding the ESL's.

Have a chat with Toppsy - he has ESL63s with supertweeters (Fostex in his case), and they work tremendously well.

[northwest]

Have a chat with Toppsy - he has ESL63s with supertweeters (Fostex in his case), and they work tremendously well.

I am still kicking myself for humming and hah'ing over a pair that were offered at a bargain price. I'll never see them for that again. So I am going to go down the DIY route. Looking at something like this:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/290673757080?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649

[Spur07]

No, I don't. But I really like the idea and most who know say the QUAD ESL benefits from them. I really need to build myself a pair and try them. I would hook them up piggy backing off the speaker cables feeding the ESL's.

Yes, that's what I would expect - that seems to be the usual way of connecting them. That ebay link looks like good value Graham.

[northwest]

Yes, that's what I would expect - that seems to be the usual way of connecting them. That ebay link looks like good value Graham.

Good value? The pair of Fostec were a few pennies more:doh::doh::doh:
I take no credit for the link, someone pointed them out to me when I decided it might be an idea to try supertweeters, I think they are okay for the money too.
My problem right now is that I am limbering up for my ESL treble panel and power supply rebuild. 'She' is away next week so the dining room table is going to be pressed into service for purposes other than displaying a bowl of fruit:D

[Stratmangler]

Those tweeters you've linked to are going to require an immense amount of attenuation.
They go down low too, so you're going to need to use a fairly high corner frequency if you're going to use a first order filter.

[DaveK]

FWIW I 'invested' in a pair of M*ntor D*li supertweeters from China (my excuse being that I know nowt and expect to have to pay to learn ;) ). A nice kind man on here by the name of Mark (RM) put together a pair of L-Pads and crossovers for me, another friend soldered everything together and I put them in ex-Maplins plastic cases and sat them on top of my Mission 774s, fed direct from the 774 terminal posts. Somewhere on here is a thread with some pics of the insides of the s/tweeters.
With ears pressed up against them I could hear nothing from them but a SPL meter indicated that they were emitting something.
In terms of what they did to the sound I cannot put my finger on it but I do know that I definitely prefer the sound with them in place. My advice is that they are certainly worth experimenting with but a slight word of caution: if I turn the wick up a bit, marginally on the high side of 'comfortable', one channel drops out - impedance?? (I'm running 2 Mini-Ts, one per channel). That nice kind man Mark is addressing that problem for me at the moment so I could let you know in due course how it goes if anyone is interested.
Dave.

[Ali Tait]

Those tweeters you've linked to are going to require an immense amount of attenuation.
They go down low too, so you're going to need to use a fairly high corner frequency if you're going to use a first order filter.

From the quoted spec they only go to 20k, so not really a supertweeter either.

[Werner Berghofer]

Dave,


I do know that I definitely prefer the sound with them in place

Just out of pure curiosity: Did you ever attempt to perform a blind listening test, without knowing if these “super tweeters” were in place or not? Are you aware of the McGurk effect?

G-lN8vWm3m0

Recommended further reading: → What we hear (http://nwavguy.blogspot.de/2012/04/what-we-hear.html)

Werner.

[northwest]

From the quoted spec they only go to 20k, so not really a supertweeter either.

And I would add that it is the blind leading the blind here:) Haven't bought anything yet so still time to fsk it up completely!

[DaveK]

Werner,
Thanks for that. I am busy ATM doing husband's chores - assembling flat pack furniture ;) - but I will study your links and get back to you - could be interesting :) .
Dave.

[Ali Tait]

Dave,



Just out of pure curiosity: Did you ever attempt to perform a blind listening test, without knowing if these “super tweeters” were in place or not? Are you aware of the McGurk effect?

G-lN8vWm3m0

Recommended further reading: → What we hear (http://nwavguy.blogspot.de/2012/04/what-we-hear.html)

Werner.

I've heard a pair of pricey Fostex supertweeters taken in and out of circuit on a pair of DIY horn speakers. The difference was easily obvious to all who were there.

[DaveK]

I've heard a pair of pricey Fostex supertweeters taken in and out of circuit on a pair of DIY horn speakers. The difference was easily obvious to all who were there.

Ali,
I'm so familiar with my system sound pre the super tweeters that I have absolutely no doubt about what improvement I'm getting with them but I have enough respect for Werner's knowledge on these things (if not his un-subtle manner of expressing them sometimes ;) ) to look into what he suggests. Easily done to take them in and out so no problem, but with my ears and lack of audiophile lexicon I might have a problem saying exactly what the difference is that I'm appreciating :lol: .
Dave.

[Ali Tait]

Well that's what we did, took them in and out of circuit, and the difference was obvious and immediately discernable.

[Werner Berghofer]

Dave,


I have enough respect for Werner's knowledge on these things

thank you for your kind words, but I have absolutely no knowledge on this things. It’s almost impossible for me for handle a screwdriver properly on the first try, not to mention soldering irons. Electricity, electronics, resistors, impedance and all this stuff is unknown terrain for me. I just want to be able to enjoy recorded music in the best, most simple way that I can afford, and I always have been curious to find out how good recording is done and how our perceptual apparatus is working.

Oh, and of course I have a fondness for pretty looking gear with misleading names :-)

Werner.

[Werner Berghofer]

Ali,


The difference was easily obvious to all who were there.

well, then so be it! I still am curious if these differences also would have been noticed if nobody in the audience would have known if these super tweeters were actually connected or not. Also, as much as I know on a standard red book audio CD no frequencies beyond 22 kHz are present, so I’m not sure what part of the audio spectrum is being routed to these special tweeters.

It’s a fact that the presence of certain high frequencies can be perceived by human beings not with the ears, but in certain regions of the brain.

If you think it sounds better, then it sounds better.

Werner.

[Ali Tait]

Perhaps it's harmonics of the high frequencies we hear. Whatever it is, it certainly made a big difference on those speakers.

[Stratmangler]

Supertweeters have a big impact on the attack and dynamic of instruments with bass fundamentals.

[DSJR]

I'm trying not to be devil's advocate here, but how many of you really rate live FM broadcasts on radio 3? 13 bit digital PCM and brick-walled at 15K too...........

[DaveK]

Werner,
Regarding your comment about the limitations of Red Book CDs, one thing that might be aiding my preference for the presence of the super tweeters is that I listen mainly these days to Hi-Res files so may be there is something there that the super tweeters provide audible benefits from?
Just a thought.
Dave.

[Welder]

That’s an interesting video Werner. I had read a bit about the effect but not seen that before.
It’s almost impossible to accept that the audio hasn’t changed.

[Stratmangler]

I'm trying not to be devil's advocate here, but how many of you really rate live FM broadcasts on radio 3? 13 bit digital PCM and brick-walled at 15K too...........

A few years ago I was in the car one Saturday evening, and Proms in The Park was being simulcast on both Radio2 and Radio3 - the Radio2 tech guys made a complete balls up of the concert, whereas the Radio3 tech guys did a superb job.

Now, what relevance does your question have to the topic?
Nobody has mentioned Radio3 up until your post... :scratch: :)

[jostber]

I like my Townshend Super Tweeters and use them with my open baffle Transcription Audio speakers. It's important to note that Super Tweeters is not only heard, but they also affect the sound waves in the room to give a more complete and real sound image.

[Werner Berghofer]

Dave,


one thing that might be aiding my preference for the presence of the super tweeters is that I listen mainly these days to Hi-Res files so may be there is something there that the super tweeters provide audible benefits from?

yes, this might be the case.

Looks as if I made a misleading statement somewhere in the past, so please allow me to clarify:

I’m a strong believer that properly mastered 16 bit/44.1 kHz digital audio (aka “Red Book Audio”) offers more dynamics and frequency range than the human brain is able to perceive and process. In my opinion the current “Hi-Res” trend is just another hype enabling otherwise stagnant industries (audio equipment manufacturers and music business) to once again rip off unsuspecting consumers. It’s clear that during the recording and mastering process a bit depth of 24 bit is preferable, but for audio playback a bit depth of 16 bit and a sampling rate of 44.1 kHz are more than sufficient for human needs.

Werner.

[jaym481]

That’s an interesting video Werner. I had read a bit about the effect but not seen that before.
It’s almost impossible to accept that the audio hasn’t changed.

Try it with your eyes closed.

I have a suspicion that the effect isn't nearly as applicable to swapping audio gear. While we may be fooled into perceiving a difference when equipment is visibly changed, the McGurk effect seems to be something that evolved in our brains to use vision to compensate for deficiencies in hearing. Our brains associate certain mouth formations with particular sounds.

When an audio appliance is swapped, we may expect, and thus hear, a difference that may not actually be there. However, if the change is not subtle, and is regarded as such by all observers, then it's reasonable to conclude there is probably something happening, not an illusion.

Most of the stuff I've seen that is used to demonstrate how our hearing is easily fooled involves very specific types of visual stimuli. I think it's a stretch to assume the very act of making an equipment swap is going to be as powerful as cultural and linguistic stimuli that have evolved since long before recorded music.

And I need to get my super tweeters fixed so I can see if they are of any use to my half-century, tinnitus-afflicted, 13kHz-on-a-good-day, ears. Note that I don't want them to be of any use, as I can flip them on EBay for enough to finally get new cabs and crossovers for my Tannoys.

[Ali Tait]

The chap that owned the horn speakers and supertweeters was in his sixties at the time.

[DaveK]

As posted earlier, not yet watched the video but my initial thoughts were exactly the same regarding visual stimuli. I actually watched a few seconds of the video but with zero volume and it was obvious that the two side by side images were 'mouthing' differences but, not having watched it all or with sound, I did not want to comment at that stage.
Dave.

[Welder]

Try it with your eyes closed.

I have a suspicion that the effect isn't nearly as applicable to swapping audio gear. While we may be fooled into perceiving a difference when equipment is visibly changed, the McGurk effect seems to be something that evolved in our brains to use vision to compensate for deficiencies in hearing. Our brains associate certain mouth formations with particular sounds.

When an audio appliance is swapped, we may expect, and thus hear, a difference that may not actually be there. However, if the change is not subtle, and is regarded as such by all observers, then it's reasonable to conclude there is probably something happening, not an illusion.

Most of the stuff I've seen that is used to demonstrate how our hearing is easily fooled involves very specific types of visual stimuli. I think it's a stretch to assume the very act of making an equipment swap is going to be as powerful as cultural and linguistic stimuli that have evolved since long before recorded music.

And I need to get my super tweeters fixed so I can see if they are of any use to my half-century, tinnitus-afflicted, 13kHz-on-a-good-day, ears. Note that I don't want them to be of any use, as I can flip them on EBay for enough to finally get new cabs and crossovers for my Tannoys.

I wasn't suggesting it is particularly relevant to audio, just that it's interesting that there are obviously some visual and audio combinations our brains just don't cope with. :)

[DSJR]

It may just be something to do with the energy at these frequencies being absorbed in-room as well as dispersion issues. Adding an extra super-tweeter may well help here possibly????

Werner, agree about the whole hi-res thing. Don't SA-CD players have an even noise spectrum above the limits of hearing? Maybe this even spread of noise can help with our perceptions?

[daytona600]

i use a pair of Batmasters from taket with by usher Be10s
these are far more advanced than anything on the market they extend to 150Khz
they use polymer piezo-electric heli type drivers with a brass horn handmade in japan
www.taket.jp
i use them with a pair of there tiny subs as well Whdpure on matching wood stands
speakers are now 5way truly full range 20Hz-150khz

same drivers are used in there H2+ headphones " the king of headphones "
driven via matching TR2 fully balanced step-up transformer via 300b monoblocks
these are just complete game changers
made my sennheiser HD800 sound like the free phones you get with a Ipod

[wiicrackpot]

Could i ask a tentative ''how much these Takets cost ?''. :hmm:

wii.

[daytona600]

£1900 andy i,m nr glasgow if you want to hear them

[wiicrackpot]

:eek:...

Thanks for letting me know, bit out of my league but would like to take up your offer of a listen,
been tracking Tannoy one's on the Bay but been out bidded numerous times.

wii.

[Mika K]

Takets are very good as the better Fostex models as well. I'm using pair of these http://www.itemaudio.co.uk/johnblue_supertweeter.html in my horn system. The main drivers and horn go up to 16k and these can be integrated quite nicely to the system. And yes, you really can tell the difference :)

http://www.itemaudio.co.uk/jb_supertweet2.jpg

I have heard many supertweeters in different systems (ESLs, horns etc) and think that the important part is to understand that by the specs you really cannot tell if the supertweeters are finally suitable to the system or not. Similar efficiency is of course a good starting point but many times integrating these to system need severe fine tuning and lot of hours at the listening chair. Sometimes the voicing just does not match or there is beaming or other unwanted behaviour that might arise also from the working principle and directionality of the speakers..

[wiicrackpot]

Mika,

Thanks for the insight on supertweets, as i've mentioned to Scott in my PM to him i've never heard of the Taket brand before, will see if i like the effect once i hear them for myself. :)

wii.

[walpurgis]

Celestion HF2000 work very nicely as super-tweeters, for a not huge outlay. Just about the right sensitivity to work with Tannoy duals. I've used them with mine and also used a pair of hefty Isophon horn tweeters sucessfuly (can't remember the model and they're stored away at the moment). I've also bought a pair of HiVi RT1C-A isodynamic (planar) tweeters to try out when I get round to it! They have a very extended top end.

[wiicrackpot]

Ta for the headup on the Celestion's Geoff, will see if supertweeters are for me when i visit Scott tonight. :)

wii.

[walpurgis]

Have fun and remember, if you can clearly hear super-tweeters they are not doing the job right. They should enhance the sound very subtly and their effect should normally be more evident when they are taken in and out of circuit for comparison, then you'll hear what's going on. The benefits are there if they are used correctly. You'd probably have to experiment with the filter frequency and slope, phasing and possibly sensitivity. There is no real need for super-tweeters to be the same impedance as the drivers in the main speaker.

[f1eng]

It may just be something to do with the energy at these frequencies being absorbed in-room as well as dispersion issues. Adding an extra super-tweeter may well help here possibly????

Werner, agree about the whole hi-res thing. Don't SA-CD players have an even noise spectrum above the limits of hearing? Maybe this even spread of noise can help with our perceptions?

A mate of mine is an acoustics engineer and has done loads of experiments on perception. He has tried a few on me. His prototype wide dispertion supertweeter (most are almost as directional as a laser, so you have to be -absolutely- on axis to get any of their output) I couldn't hear a difference in my system but he thought it much better. He gave me the prototypes and I ran them as long as I had a preamp with 2 outputs, but I haven't missed them since I disconnected them a few months ago.

One test which was very interesting was just injecting a bit of noise into the signal. Random noise added a greater sense of space and ambience, and if the noise was "correlated with the music" (how, I don't know) it was even more so.
Probably one of the mechanisms by which different bits of kit sound different.

[walpurgis]

That random noise test is interesting. Would this be a psychological thing? The brain's perception of what is being heard, altered in some way maybe?

[realysm42]

Got my Townshend supertweeters today, can't wait to go home and test them out!

[Macca]

Got my Townshend supertweeters today, can't wait to go home and test them out!

lol - I noticed you snapped them up - full report expected ;)

[realysm42]

I've been waiting ages for a pair to appear so I'm really happy; going out for steak tonight but all I want to do is go home and set them up.

I'll give you a report once I've got them setup properly :cool:

[realysm42]

Got them in place, I'm tying them on the medium (4) setting for now, I think they're about in the right position and they're quite impressive, took me a while to appreciate what they do, the difference to me is subtle but there, they add more air and space around everything and really seem to 'open' the music up, I've not got my sub on right now, so can't comment on that but will later :eyebrows:

Here they are:

http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q153/realysm42/Untitled-13.jpg

[Stratmangler]

How much is audible from the tweeters?
How much is intelligible when you stand above the main speakers and listen directly to the supertweeter?
If you can clearly make out the tune then there's a chance you've got them set to too low a crossover point.

[realysm42]

How much is audible from the tweeters?
How much is intelligible when you stand above the main speakers and listen directly to the supertweeter?
If you can clearly make out the tune then there's a chance you've got them set to too low a crossover point.

How much is audible from the super tweeters you mean?

As they are in the picture, I can't hear anything from them, the normal speaker drowns them out, but I'm not sure I've understood you properly...

When you say too low a crossover point do you mean I should turn them up to a higher (5) setting?

[Stratmangler]

How much is audible from the super tweeters you mean?

Yes.


As they are in the picture, I can't hear anything from them, the normal speaker drowns them out, but I'm not sure I've understood you properly...

When you say too low a crossover point do you mean I should turn them up to a higher (5) setting?

Go up to the speakers while playing music and pick up one of the Townsend units - how much of the tune can you hear coming out of it?

If it's clearly intelligible then the chances are the crossover point is too low, and you'll have areas where the tweeter and supertweeter are chucking large amounts of the same frequencies which will give higher SPLs over those frequencies.

Which means that the crossover response of the speakers is radically changed, and not necessarily for the better.

With supertweeters you need to adopt the Zen approach of "less is more".

[DaveK]

I added super tweeters to my Mission 774s and with my ear right next to them I could not hear a thing over the main speakers but I know I won't be moving them any time soon. I would describe the effect on the overall presentation as subtle but very worthwhile - I struggle to describe the effect other than 'more realistic'.
I put a cheapo decibel meter up against them and again the main speakers may be having an over riding effect but the decibel meter also seemed to indicate that something was coming out of them even if my old ears weren't capable of picking it up directly.
Many thanks are due to Mark (RM) for his kind help implementing this :) .
Dave.

[daytona600]

i found my supertweeters add low level details you did not hear before like reverb in the room , space on vocals & a cleaner deeper taut base with improved width/height
( good supertweeters that is , some are useless )

[DaveK]

i found my supertweeters add low level details you did not hear before like reverb in the room , space on vocals & a cleaner deeper taut base with improved width/height
( good supertweeters that is , some are useless )

Not arguing 'cos I know nothing of such things but the concept of Super Tweeters adding bass is one I struggle with. Other than that I would not disagree with what you found :) .
Dave.

[Stratmangler]

Not arguing 'cos I know nothing of such things but the concept of Super Tweeters adding bass is one I struggle with. Other than that I would not disagree with what you found :) .
Dave.

They can't add bass.
They can improve the attack of harmonics of the bass frequencies, which can lead to an impression of greater, tighter bass.

[realysm42]

Thanks for the advice Strat.

[daytona600]

They can't add bass.
They can improve the attack of harmonics of the bass frequencies, which can lead to an impression of greater, tighter bass.

they do improve the sound top to bottom - including the bass
i tried a few and results where not good or made no difference or made it worse - would not be without them now ( good hi-end supertweeters not the low cost ones )

[realysm42]

Just had a closer look at one of the units and I think it might be damaged:

http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q153/realysm42/Untitled-14.png

Sorry about the poor picture, my phone camera isn't built for macros it would seem, but it illustartes my concern (look at the bottom left), the part in the centre isn't, well, central; in the other tweeter it is, what do you reckon?

[Stratmangler]

they do improve the sound top to bottom - including the bass
i tried a few and results where not good or made no difference or made it worse - would not be without them now ( good hi-end supertweeters not the low cost ones )

I'm glad we're in agreement then :)

[DaveK]

If I can add to the general agreement (and I'm not being wise after the event :ner: ), I was struck by how good the bass sounded, particularly after the system had warmed up, after fitting the super tweeters but dismissed it as my imagination playing tricks - maybe not? :)
Dave.

[daytona600]

Heli supertweeters

[realysm42]

Can anyone answer my question about potential damage?

[daytona600]

potenial damage to what
your speakers your wallet improved sound

[realysm42]

http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q153/realysm42/Untitled-14.png

This, the ribbon or whatever it is isn't straight, in the other unit it is.

[jaym481]

http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q153/realysm42/Untitled-14.png

This, the ribbon or whatever it is isn't straight, in the other unit it is.

Have you tried to contact Townshend? I'm sure they could tell you if it was a normal thing or something needing attention.

[realysm42]

Have you tried to contact Townshend? I'm sure they could tell you if it was a normal thing or something needing attention.

Yeah I've spoken to them this morning, they said to send the unit back and they'll check it out for me, which is reassuring.

[daytona600]

Good supertweeters even work on very humble sources youtube MP3s Tvs etc