ICE v Tripath

[Covenant]

Are there any views on which is best?
Ive been using a tripath amp for about a year and am thinking about a change.

[SamJones]

I'm a class-D convert. I use a Tripath chipped amp in a second lounge system, it's the TEAC AL-700P with one of the redundant boards pulled. It comes as a three channel amp so has two identical stereo power amp modules. It sounds good with a resistive passive VC.

I've not heard an ICE chipset amp yet but have a pair of Flying Mole class-D monoblocks which use their own method. With a passive VC, the sound is very similar, maybe slightly warmer, than the Tripath but with a lot more welly when needed. There is not a lot written about Flying Mole amps on the forums but I can vouch for them being excellent sound quality. If you like Tripath amps you will almost certainly like Flying Mole.

[aquapiranha]

Hmmmm... Flying Mole you say??

Actually I saw these amps when they started appearing on the back of PMC speakers (I used to use TB2S+) and they did look intriguing,, and there were a few positive reviews around too. Isn't ICE power modules a B&O invention? (don't tell the owners of Bel Canto...they get upset...) and class D is a bit of a misnomer as people confuse the term with "digital" whereas it simply refers to the type of circuit, like A and B..

[jonners]

Are there any views on which is best?
Ive been using a tripath amp for about a year and am thinking about a change.

I don't know about ICE, but I've moved from Tripath to Hypex UcD and I'm happy.

John

[Covenant]

Hi Jonners
Can you explain a bit more about Hypex? Are these just circuits and you are making them up into amps? How do they compare to Tripath?

[leo]

Hypex UCD's can be found in some ready built amps, places like Channel Islands use them.
You can also buy the amp modules from here https://www.hypexshop.com/ if your wanting to knock something up yourself, they also sell the PSU's etc

I've a pair of Hypex UCD monoblocks, their good performers and can be made compact, the PSU's usually take much more space than the actual amps

[aquapiranha]

Hi Jonners
Can you explain a bit more about Hypex? Are these just circuits and you are making them up into amps? How do they compare to Tripath?

Indeed, I am also interested re. the sound quality of the Hypex units. I too have used a Tripath amp and would be interested to hear your thoughts as to why you switched.

:)

[Spectral Morn]

Are there any views on which is best?
Ive been using a tripath amp for about a year and am thinking about a change.


I have heard some Class D designs. Bel Canto's integrated amplifiers the first was Tri-Path and the Second was ICE. I did not much like the sound of the first but thought the SI 300 was quite good. I also had a listen to some Flying Mole amps a while back when the Distributor sent some samples. I liked the build quality and though the sound was again quite good, I was left feeling something in the sound was missing.

I have a lot of experience with Chapter audio amplification (they use a Class D of their own design. I think). I tried these amps at home, the Preface pre and the original power amp and thought that it lacked both drive and presence. However the sound was very good most of the time. A problem occurred with the pre and the power amp, so they upgraded me to a Preface + Signature Pre and the most recent power amp the Cuplet ( not for free, I should add). The issues with the first units vanished and I must say that these are among the best Solid State amps that I have used. Amazingly silent(lack of noise leads to very high levels of detail and inky black spaces), however despite the wonderful aspects of sound,transparency, deep wide and high sound stages, and a very clean treble it still sound odd to my ears as does all class D that I have heard. There is a valve type quality but it sounds neither like traditional solid state or valves and to be honest I don't fully know quite what to make of it.

Generally I prefer Valves to solid state and as Class D comes somewhere in the middle as regards sound qualities, it is well, odd to me. As far as I am concerned the jury is out on Class D but I have not closed the door on it, I keep an open mind and while I like the Chapter audio kit I feel in away that the sound is slightly more hi-fi than music, which is what valve amps sound to me, Music.

Regards D S D L---- Neil :)

[Covenant]

Thanks for those interesting comments. Could it be simply that class D offers the best of both valve and solid state technology?

[jonners]

Indeed, I am also interested re. the sound quality of the Hypex units. I too have used a Tripath amp and would be interested to hear your thoughts as to why you switched.

:)

Let me say first that I wasn't at all unhappy with the Tripaths (I had the relatively high power TA0103 modules - I still have one stereo board for sale if anyone's interested). However the UcD are quieter,which could be a factor if using high-sensitivity speakers, and since their output impedance doesn't rise in the top octave they are less speaker-fussy. Imaging is a bit more stable with the Hypex, I think. Differences are not night and day - sometimes I like a change for its own sake, plus I enjoy making things. :)

John

[leo]

Thanks for those interesting comments. Could it be simply that class D offers the best of both valve and solid state technology?


Like everything else, it depends on the design, some classD amps are a lot better than others.
Hypex can drive hard loads pretty easy, measurements are also very impressive

Some people accuse them of being tiring to listen to yet others say they are just accurate, personal choice I guess

[Dave Cawley]

Could it be simply that class D offers the best of both valve and solid state technology?

No, it offers the worst of any technology, in my view.

Dave

[aquapiranha]

Some great thoughts guys. If anyone ever buys the A30 ( eventually) I can see my at least trying some of the smaller hypex modules, possibly with a beresford DAC - I think I am right in saying the latter has a variable output?- thereby changing two bits at once. I have sensitive speakers so power is not an issue anyway.

[StanleyB]

My manufacturing colleague does a class D amp. I got a sample or two but I am not convinced that Tripath chip is all it is claimed to be. The sound from that 2024 chip doesn't sound quite right somehow.

[leo]

Every amp toplogy has flaws, its finding one you can live with

[Clive]

Colloms views are clear to see: http://www.hificritic.com/downloads/Class-D.pdf

[Dave Cawley]

The actual full article goes way deep, many pages. It is worth buying the back copy for evaluating any system. I was asked to talk to Martin Colloms by the UK importer of NuForce. I have to say, I believe he is right. At first listen Class D seems to have extraordinarily huge grip and control, but then after a couple of days, you realise all is not well in 'the land of 70khz' ...........

Dave

[Covenant]

Wow......
I have never read a more comprehensively damning article.

[aquapiranha]

Wow......
I have never read a more comprehensively damning article.


Me neither! it is a good job I prefer to listen to music and not listen to my hifi via an oscilloscope !

[Dave Cawley]

Steve

You need to read the whole article, Martin did a hole shed load of listening, call me after you read the whole article?

Dave

[aquapiranha]

Steve

You need to read the whole article, Martin did a hole shed load of listening, call me after you read the whole article?

Dave

Hi Dave,

I do not doubt for a second that Martin did a thorough review including extended listening. I have not had time to read the entire article though I will try to today. Let's face it though, there are many things in this business that do not measure well (most valve amps being one!) yet they bring musical enjoyment to many!

I will have a read, thanks dave.

[Dave Cawley]

OK! But Martin does listen, and listens very well indeed. It's perception, I think valve amps measure very well indeed! High dynamic range, little transient intermodulation distortion, low noise, and more important than everything, hardly any 3rd harmonic distortion.

Dave

[jonners]

Me neither! it is a good job I prefer to listen to music and not listen to my hifi via an oscilloscope !

Hear hear! :)

[aquapiranha]

I have very quickly skimmed over the condensed version, and unless I am mistaken I would say martin has some kind of axe to grind here! it seems almost too scathing to be anything else! perhaps if they had a naim badge on the front he would have been more forgiving? hmmm.... who knows? the only way to be sure is to try one.

[jonners]

I have very quickly skimmed over the condensed version, and unless I am mistaken I would say martin has some kind of axe to grind here! .

He does seem to tar all class D amps with the same brush. The design of the Hypex amps actually avoids many of the Colloms 'bad behaviours'.

John

[Dave Cawley]

Guys, you need to read the full version, otherwise you are clutching at straws! But then I did say this earlier, so I suppose it's down to believing what you want to believe? No one likes their beliefs criticised.

Dave

[Marco]

No one likes their beliefs criticised.


That's an interesting one, Dave. I think you're absolutely right, although I've never suffered from that particular affliction myself, providing the criticism is warranted and constructive.

I find that retaining an open-mind and thus always being receptive to new ideas/ways of thinking helps enormously in that respect ;)

Beliefs, as far as I'm concerned, can (and should) if necessary be reviewed and updated at any time, with hi-fi or anything else...!

Marco.

[aquapiranha]

Guys, you need to read the full version, otherwise you are clutching at straws! But then I did say this earlier, so I suppose it's down to believing what you want to believe? No one likes their beliefs criticised.

Dave

Yes, you are correct, that is why I intend to read the article and possibly try one of the Hypex units myself. Just because mr. colloms has an issue with that type of amp, does not mean I will have the same views! but I cannot have any valid opinions until I have at least given them a go.

:)

[Marco]

but I cannot have any valid opinions until I have at least given them a go...


That's exactly the right attitude, Steve :)

If only more people in this hobby of ours were able to think for themselves and not solely be influenced by what's written in magazines and such like then the hi-fi scene would be in a much better state than it currently is!

Marco.

[SamJones]

I could not take that article seriously. It reads like a party political script.

[Spectral Morn]

Hi Dave,

I do not doubt for a second that Martin did a thorough review including extended listening. I have not had time to read the entire article though I will try to today. Let's face it though, there are many things in this business that do not measure well (most valve amps being one!) yet they bring musical enjoyment to many!

I will have a read, thanks dave.

Hi Aquapiranha

Sorry but it is a myth that valve amps can't measure well. It is true that some don't as also some Soild State also do not. Martin Collums is not the only one out there saying hold up a minute, lets have a look at this. However if you like Class D in your system thats great, just as many like valve amp sound or even traditional Solid state sound. There is a growing feeling that Class D despite the advantages given, may just be very poor in its implementation.

Purely on sound I would not be quite as black and white as Dave Cawley has been, but so far, bar the Chapter audio Kit I really have to say I don't like Class D(in the context of my System and elsewhere), however I will keep an open mind about it. When I hear it sound fully good, through out the frequencies. At present something is wrong IMHO, and we are not yet hearing the best from this concept. Time will tell.

Regards D S D L---- Neil :)

[aquapiranha]

Niel, you are preaching to the converted! I know valve amps are fab, I have had a couple and still have one. I meant relatively. I would just like to try a few other things before I can fully make my mind up yet.