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Neil McCauley
07-01-2009, 12:48
Yes, I think we might be. I certainly hope so. The Green Home's Black Mamba speakers cables (which I now use throughout my demo room) is a case in point. http://www.usedhifishop.co.uk/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=13

The low cost high performance interconnects I mentioned a while back is another example. http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=1335 ***

The Beresford DAC is another.

The new high value range V-series from Musical Fidelity (no, I'm not a dealer) is yet another example. A DAC for £99 + VAT, MM/MC phono stage for a similar amount – apparently. http://www.musicalfidelity.com/products/vseries/overview.html

And I like to think my own Damiel power cords which – because of increased sales leading to increased productions runs is shortly to see a substantial price reduction. http://www.stereonow.co.uk/damiel.html

All in all I think this is most encouraging. Hopefully the first signs of a culture of un-greed in our industry are appearing. And not before time. Or ….. perhaps …… just in time, depending on your perspective of course.

Suggestion #1

Might I suggest that all of us keep a look out for other examples of un-greed and perhaps highlight them here to the benefit of all of us? Not discounted products, but products which are brand new and from day-one have a terrific RRP. Thank you.

Suggestion #2

Let's not get sidetracked as to why there is a trend to un-greed, if indeed that's what it is. Let's just be pleasantly surprised, and in a positive spirit stay on this thread at least entirely focused in find more in a similar vein.

***

In the spirit of the spirit I mentioned earlier, I have persuaded the interconnect maker to provide 10 pairs at a seriously discounted price – and only for AOS members.

There is a 90 day sale or return. The discounted price (and it is only for these 10 pairs) is £25.00 per 1m stereo pair and UK postage is included FOC. I have been asked to limit this to just one pair per person. So if you want a pair, just phone me on 0208 447 8485. Thanks. Howard.

purite audio
07-01-2009, 14:50
This year we have managed to negotiate a 20% reduction in prices across the Allnic amplifier range , excellent products at competitive prices, that's how it should be.

Marco
07-01-2009, 15:17
Might I suggest that all of us keep a look out for other examples of un-greed and perhaps highlight them here to the benefit of all of us? Not discounted products, but products which are brand new and from day-one have a terrific RRP. Thank you.


Hi Howard,

Apart from what's been mentioned already, here are a few which I think come into that category:

1) A PRIME EXAMPLE: Technics SL-1200/1210. Even in unmodified form it blows lightweight entry-level designs from the likes of Pro-Ject and Rega out of the water, and when fully modified by KAB or Sound Hi-fi, it's transformed into a genuine high-end T/T that can compete with the many so-called 'superdecks' on the marketplace at often ridiculous prices.

2) The Denon current range of MC cartridges: DL-110, 160, 103 (and its variants) - all offer superb sound-per-pound value and are ideal examples of the "un-greed" you mention. The AT OC-9 (at the old UK price) and 33PTG (from the Japanese market) also come into this category. Many so called 'hi-end' MC cartridges offer very poor sound-per-pound value in comparison.

3) The new range of Jelco tonearms (SA-250ST and SA-750D) - quite phenomenal value for money and offer performance on a par with some of SMEs top designs at a fraction of the price!

4) A.N.T Audio phono stages - quite superb for the money and are amongst the best solid-state phono stages I have heard - better than the likes of the entry and mid level Whest (and others I could mention), again at a fraction of the price!

5) The Puresound A30 integrated valve amp and P10 phono stage (also Heco loudspeakers) - same applies.

6) World Designs D.I.Y valve kits and loudspeakers.

7) Mark Grant cables - more on this later.

8) Cambridge Audio and Rotel's range of hi-fi equipment.

Given time, I'm sure that I could think of much more...

This is where it's at now for 'enthusiast hi-fi'. The unscrupulous in the industry will continue to fleece the badge snobs and the gullible. Knowledgeable and experienced people (like me) however want top-notch performance at realistic prices. We don't want to pay for someone's overheads from having a fancy showroom in a 'prestige' location or for nonsense like 'prestige value' attached to badge snobbery - sonic performance, decent build quality, realistic prices and great service is all that matters! The latter is extremely important.

That and the type of gear represented above is precisely what The Art of Sound is about. People are starting to 'wake up and smell the coffee' when it comes to some of the rip-off hi-end' products that exist on the marketplace, entertaining instead the use of the myriad of excellent and realistically priced equipment and ancillaries which is available now, some of which is mentioned above. We're very happy for AOS to facilitate that process and the continued championing of excellent equipment which meets our discerning judgement criteria :)

Marco.

Neil McCauley
07-01-2009, 16:00
All good stuff there Marco. Thank you. Re what AOS is about, you are preaching to the converted.

Without I hope being too pedantic, is the Technics you mentioned still in production or is this a bargain from a bygone age? I ask because (a) I though that Technics had ceased as a brand and (b) my thoughts were directed towards new items at realistic prices.

Might I also suggest that you and perhaps others put the appropriate link alongside each recommendation? I for one would certainly find that useful.

Thanks

H

PS

I don't have a fancy showroom in a 'prestige' location. I did. And now I know better.

Steve Toy
07-01-2009, 16:03
There is a 90 day sale or return. The discounted price (and it is only for these 10 pairs) is £25.00 per 1m stereo pair and UK postage is included FOC. I have been asked to limit this to just one pair per person.


A bit of a chocolate teapot then to those of us (Marco and myself included) who run pre/power setups and would therefore need two pairs to derive any benefit at all. With respect this is a lovely marketing exercise, the kind I wholehertedly support, but excludes too many of us unfortunately.

Neil McCauley
07-01-2009, 16:07
A bit of a chocolate teapot then to those of us (Marco and myself included) who run pre/power setups and would therefore need two pairs to derive any benefit at all.
Now hold a minute. Either you are trying to wind me up or you are pulling my leg. Either way, I don't like it!

The maker is NOT a charity!

1. The maker is selling these at cost to AOS members

2. Naturally they want to avoid some greedy sod buying the lot and thereby depriving 'n' other members from benefiting. How bad is that?

Get a grip Steve. Hardly worth your invective surely?

The offer is no more of a chocolate teacup than you are! Okay?

If you and/or Marco (I presume here you are speaking on his behalf) find this offer not to your liking – in your exalted positions – then I and the maker are happy to pull the offer.

What does anyone else think i.e. should this be pulled because the guy on Mt Olympus feels slighted?

Steve Toy
07-01-2009, 16:09
Howard, simply requiring two pairs (or none at all) does not make one a greedy sod. My grip of the situation is as tight as needs be. The offer is thus reserved for those with integrated amplifiers. That's absolutely fine as long as we are aware of it.


Hardly worth your invective surely?


Invective? What, where?


Steve (feeling a bit like Oliver Twist after his first meal in the workhouse.)

Marco
07-01-2009, 16:16
Oi, you two, keep me out of this one!

Howard,


Without I hope being too pedantic, is the Technics you mentioned still in production or is this a bargain from a bygone age? I ask because (a) I though that Technics had ceased as a brand and (b) my thoughts were directed towards new items at realistic prices.


I'm surprised you think that given the level of discussion about Technics T/Ts on here!! ;)

Nope, they're still sold brand new in their 1000s. Look - you can even buy them on Amazon:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/offer-listing/B0000C4GFF/ref=dp_olp_0/276-4681060-6301923?ie=UTF8&condition=all

I'll do the links you requested later :)

Marco.

Neil McCauley
07-01-2009, 16:20
Howard, simply requiring two pairs (or none at all) does not make one a greedy sod. My grip of the situation is as tight as needs be. The offer is thus reserved for those with integrated amplifiers. That's absolutely fine as long as we are aware of it.
I don't like your tone and I don't like the sentiment either. Frankly, do you really think your readers are so dim as to not realise the restrictions? How about between a Transport and DAC, DAC and pre amp? Anyway, irrelevant now.

Offer now pulled. I'm phoning those that left voice mails for this offer to explain. Fortunately, no card payments processed yet and so no refunds.

Congratulations!

Meanwhile I'm off to run the profitable side of my business. I've emailed the maker to explain that altruism is [a] seen only as a clever marketing ploy and [b] not appreciated by some at AOS.

Meanwhile, given the spirit of the thread, was it really beyond your capability to find even one positive comment - or was it you could but didn't want to? No matter Steve, I neither know nor care.

Neil McCauley
07-01-2009, 16:26
I'm surprised you think that given the level of discussion about Technics T/Ts on here!
Marco.
A bit PFM, that comment. Strangely, I can't find the time to read every thread. Would that I could. But I can't. Yes, ignorance still exists at Stereonow. If it didn't, then what would be the point of me seeking enlightenment, hmm?

John
07-01-2009, 16:28
Here are a few worth considering also to the list
The SAC Power amp although reasonably expensive in performance terms this eaisly beats my Gamut D200 an half the price new
http://www.sacthailand.com/

The Terminator Just think in sound terms audio bargin To my ears this totally outperforms a SME5 and is nearly a fourth the price Not everyone design icon but in sonic terms pure magic
http://www.trans-fi.com/terminatortonearm.htm

Agree with Marco around the World Design gear the phono stage is a lovelly bit of kit
I think there are number of Passive design pre amps that perform at a very high level for not crazy money

StanleyB
07-01-2009, 16:28
Whilst I have been actively promoting my TC-7510, I have kept my trap shut about my PCOFC digital coax cable or my glass fibre TOSLINK. Both are at bargain basement price when you compare their specs against anything similarly specified. But it isn't that I am not making a profit out of them. I am just aware of the mark up some/most/perhaps all of the 'high-end' leads have embedded in them.
But the greed is endemic in our industry. I was reading the comments made by someone on another site who complained about the fact that folks were switching to cheaper gear or buying 2nd hand. His livelihood depends on £20K speakers and £10K amps. Fine if you are loaded, but I know of one chap who bought a £10K CDP and then spent the next 6 months trying to off load it. Even at the last noticed price of £2,900 there were no takers.
This got me thinking. Maybe it as a badge thing for many of the audiophools. To be able to post a pic in a forum gallery showing all that expensive gear stacked on top of each other.
I had a few visitors round over the new year. One of them looked at my TT and asked why I still had it in my rack. He hadn't seen anyone play vinyl for more than a decade. Then he looked at my NS1000M and commented that Yamaha speakers were no good. I should get some KEf or B&W. I quickly realized this guy was being educated by what he read in hifi mags:mental:.

Steve Toy
07-01-2009, 16:28
Howard, I think you are throwing the baby out with the bathwater on this and generally over-reacting. If you now choose to pull the offer that is your choice and I'll take no responsibility for you so doing. It is an excellent offer but the fact remains that it is limited to those who will only need one pair, not because they only have one source (those with two or more sources would still derive benefit) but because they run pre/power amps.

On a number of occasions I've tried mixing interconnects between the sounce/pre and pre/power and the result is usually deleterious. This is hardly a good way to evaluate a new product, now is it?

Neil McCauley
07-01-2009, 16:31
My contribution to this thread is at an end. Thank you.,

Steve Toy
07-01-2009, 16:35
Oh dear. [shrugs shoulders].

In this spirit of altruism is someone kindly going to donate one loudspeaker?

Marco
07-01-2009, 16:36
Howard,

With respect, I think that you're overreacting, erm, 'somewhat' on this one. This is an excellent thread which must be explored in more detail. Your contributions would therefore be most valued.

Take a chill pill (or a coffee) and come back later :)

Marco.

Marco
07-01-2009, 16:39
I was reading the comments made by someone on another site who complained about the fact that folks were switching to cheaper gear or buying 2nd hand. His livelihood depends on £20K speakers and £10K amps. Fine if you are loaded, but I know of one chap who bought a £10K CDP and then spent the next 6 months trying to off load it. Even at the last noticed price of £2,900 there were no takers.


Stan, please name names - who are you talking about? That guy's business is precisely what's wrong with much of the hi-fi industry and why the business model you describe is no longer working as it once did - hurrah, I say!

What you're doing with the Beresford DAC is much more representative of what genuine enthusiasts want and therefore liable to be a much more successful business model!

Marco.

StanleyB
07-01-2009, 16:51
Stan, please name names - who are you talking about? That guy's business is precisely what's wrong with much of the hi-fi industry and why the business model you describe is no longer working as it once did - hurrah, I say!

You have Crossed swords with him in the past;).

Marco
07-01-2009, 16:53
LOL. I think I know who you mean! But I'm surprised he's come out with that kind of stuff on a forum - which one was it?

Marco.

StanleyB
07-01-2009, 17:04
LOL. I think I know who you mean! But I'm surprised he's come out with that kind of stuff on a forum - which one was it?

Marco.
I'll PM you the link. Your old mate Andre started the thread as it happens...

muffinman
07-01-2009, 17:13
Howard mentioned the mambas in the initial post.
Dave at greenhome sent me a set of these to test and review. at the end of the test period Dave rightly felt, as did i, that the cables were 'worth' more. i'm not sure how many Dave has managed to shift but i think it's fair to say that giving a pair or two away generated interest, if not sales.
i have no idea what cables Howard was selling but as i'm in the market for one i/c and i respect his and many others opinions, i probably would have given them a bash on spec and given, by all accounts - a glowing report. which may have generated sales.
i'm not attempting to change Howards decision btw:eyebrows:
so yes, lowering prices can generate interest which can only be good

love and peace

Dave Cawley
07-01-2009, 17:18
Well, here is a message of good will from a nice dealer! And a link to the wonderful A.N.T. phono stages.

www.soundhifi.com/phonostage.html#ant

If you mention Art of Sound, and you are listed in the members area, we will give free UK postage and 10% off until the end of this January!

Don't you just love us! Oh! and you can buy as many as you like..................

Regards

Dave

Marco
07-01-2009, 17:48
Stan,


I know of one chap who bought a £10K CDP and then spent the next 6 months trying to off load it. Even at the last noticed price of £2,900 there were no takers.
This got me thinking. Maybe it as a badge thing for many of the audiophools. To be able to post a pic in a forum gallery showing all that expensive gear stacked on top of each other.


As they say:, 'Nail, head'! Oh, and I hope you aren't referring to me recently posting pictures of my system on a forum for the first time in about 5 years :eyebrows: ;)

No, for some bizarre reason certain people appear to get a feel good factor from owning something 'prestigious'; fine if it's a Bentley car or a Patek Philippe watch because you're getting what you're paying for in terms of materials and performance, and those items genuinely deserve the label of 'prestigious', but with hi-fi the aim is surely somewhat different?

It's comments like this nonsense from Ken Kessler (which I'm sure is representative of how some think) which I find utterly ridiculous. In the 2008 Yearbook of HFN he writes of the Nagra CDP:


Forgetting the reasons I wanted this player even before switching it on - the construction, the feel of the controls, the Nagra badge [WTF?? :mental:] - and trying hard not to be seduced by the operation of the tray, I knew this player would hit me as hard as Liv Tyler in a sheer negligee. Sometimes, you just sense what's going to happen. It only took the gorgeous, open, smooth and enveloping sound of Mofi's new gold CD of Marc Cohn's eponymous debut to demonstrate he CDP's worthyness as part of the Nagra family.


What's that all about? Can someone please enlighten me? Hi-fi equipment for me is a tool to do a particular job - nothing more, nothing less. You want the best tools you can afford to do the job of course, but hi-fi equipment and its 'feel' or 'badge' is not something you have a love affair with!!

There comes to a point where 'ultimate' audio performance has long since been achieved and one is paying for nothing much more than 'audiophile jewellery'. If the goal is the best audio performance, and ultimately the greater enjoyment of our music collection, throwing cash at 'audiophile jewellery' is a complete and utter waste of money. Therefore if the badge snobs enjoy being fleeced like this then good luck to those who fleece them!


I had a few visitors round over the new year. One of them looked at my TT and asked why I still had it in my rack. He hadn't seen anyone play vinyl for more than a decade. Then he looked at my NS1000M and commented that Yamaha speakers were no good. I should get some KEf or B&W. I quickly realized this guy was being educated by what he read in hifi mags.


It's that kind of nonsensical thinking and superficial image of hi-fi which AOS is the complete antithesis of. Hopefully as our Google ratings continue to significantly increase daily, and we're being exposed more and more to the outside world, what's written here might start rubbing off on the uninitiated...

Marco.

Spectral Morn
07-01-2009, 18:01
Hi Marco

It is entirely possible and not mutually exclusive to have both, quality sound and drop dead looks.

Oracle Delphi Turntable (any MK. In my eyes Mk4 ). To see is to want. To hear is to know, what your eye told you was right. IMHO.

Pathos Classic One mk 2 Sonic bargain drop dead looks and was a bargain at £1350. I once had a couple come into the shop on a Saturday. The lady asked "what it ?" the Pathos was. I told her a valve hybrid integrated Amplifier. "Can I buy it ". Yes I said, what system do you have ? "I don't have one I just want it for its looks " was her reply I sold her Speakers and a cdp to go with it, (nothing dear, just so she could use it).

And there are more examples.

I know Nick, Beechwood will have an opinion on Nagra, more the Reel to reels, I suspect. I do know what Ken Kessler is talking about. Does that make me Sad ? Maybe.(not the Liv Tyler bit though)

If you want to say that there is kit out there which is grossly overpriced. Yes compared to its sound, I would agree.

Regards D S D L---- Neil :)

StanleyB
07-01-2009, 18:09
It is entirely possible and not mutually exclusive to have both, quality sound and drop dead looks.
For some reason or another it reminded me of my former girlfriend:scratch:.

Marco
07-01-2009, 18:15
Hi Neil,

Of course it's possible to have quality sound and "drop dead" looks without paying silly money. I own some examples of such equipment! ;)

But there's a sensible balance to be had... At the end of the day, genuine enthusiasts, whilst appreciating looks to certain extent, see the equipment itself as merely a means to an end - and that end is to enjoy music, not to own an 'audio sculpture'.

My Mana supports are a prime example of this system building methodology. Ugly as sin? Perhaps, but they're merely tools for doing a specific job - and that job (isolating my equipment from the effects of vibration) they do very well indeed. I couldn't give a damn what they look like!!

KK's scribblings on the Nagra CDP are simply nothing but romantic nonsense.


I know Nick Beechwood will have an opinion on Nagra.


Indeed. But their tape machines are a totally different ball game from their CD players! :)

£9k for some mass-produced OEM components in a fancy box? Give me a break!!

Marco.

Spectral Morn
07-01-2009, 18:19
Sorry, that is just to cryptic Stan. :scratch: :confused:

Regards D S D L---- Neil :)

Hi Marco. I like Romantic nonsense. I like Ken's style of writing. The problem with audio is that in order to get that last few % or not requires you (more often than not)to spend a lot. Is that sensible, depends on your point of view. Buying a Bentley or such in my opinion is madness, or on a watch that just tells the Time. It is possible to get fantastic sound for the price of the Nagra CDP, Yes. As I have not heard one I can't say if its worth it or not. The problem with digital, is it does take a big jump in cost to get substantial improvements. What is achievable to day for less than a Grand is amazing and to do a lot better you need to double. But once you go over, say £4000, you will have to go to £10000. And the improvement is no where near as big as between £1000 and £4000. IMHE

John
07-01-2009, 18:43
If we could get away from branding and the concept that the higher the price the better the equipment will sound. All the systems I heard that I love has been quirky in some respect and have not been about branding.
One reason why I enjoy this forum is that there is room for people to follow there own path as well as the level of open debate .
I really think the whole branding of high end has caused a thinking that only the most expensive equipment can get you a decent sound. I hope one of the positives that comes out of the recisions is a turn around in values

Spectral Morn
07-01-2009, 18:55
Hi John

I agree with you Brand alone is not a guarantee of quality( however it will inform you as to what its products will sound like, if you are familiar with other designs in the range), neither will cost alone get you brilliant sound. System synergy and the room factor will be the final arbiters of the whole. However as a general rule born out by 20 years listening to all sorts of kit both professionally and at home, in my own set ups. Certain areas do benefit from having more cash spent on them, than others.

However these days only the last few % cost thousands in the case of digital. From what I have read (not heard) Stans Dac seems to be such a product. Big bang for a small buck. Pure Sounds P10 phono stage is amazing too.

Regards D S D L----- Neil :)

Beechwoods
07-01-2009, 19:06
I know Nick, Beechwood will have an opinion on Nagra, more the Reel to reels, I suspect. I do know what Ken Kessler is talking about. Does that make me Sad ? Maybe.(not the Liv Tyler bit though)

:) My experience of Nagra outside of their tape decks is very limited. What I do know is that their tape decks are workhorses, and the looks and drop-dead design reflects their utility. They are built to sound great, be ultra-reliable, knocked around on location and be serviceable in the back of a van :) I'm really not so sure about their pre-amps or CDP's. Like some of the good looking valve amps, the aesthetic beauty of the Nagra tape decks is a by-product of their function, not made to look good by designers working to a marketeer's brief but designed to function well and be beautiful by engineers who knew what they were doing.

And we are allowed to enjoy that beauty! I'll forgive Ken Kessler's artistic licence - it's all good fun - but I would be wary of anyone pre-judging something based on it's badge ;)

I suppose what we might be seeing is that there are signs that kit is moving to a more functional aesthetic, rather than one more form before function. I'd imagine that fancy case-work and design for designs sake has been a significant cost driver in a lot of high-end gear. There's certainly a significant number of people out there who no longer care so much for kit that 'looks high-end' when their friends come round. They're more aware that great sound can come from plain packages.

And that sounds like my ex-girlfriend :lol:

Marco
07-01-2009, 19:35
It is possible to get fantastic sound for the price of the Nagra CDP, Yes.


Too bloody right!! I can think of plenty of CDPs I'd buy before the £9k badge-snob rip-off Nagra (and others of its ilk).

I would put my modified classic Sony (at a fraction of the cost) up against it any day of the week and expect it to piss all over the Nagra in any system you care to mention, quite simply because the former is all about maximum sonic performance and the latter mainly about aesthetics and willy-waving.

Are you a betting man - do you fancy betting on the outcome of such a shoot-out? ;)

No offence Neil, but you're in cloud-cuckoo land if you don't realise what a rip-off most hi-end hi-fi is.

What should always matter most is what's under the hood, not what the hood is dressed in and how nice it is to look at or touch!

Which of course brings us neatly back to women... :eyebrows:

Marco.

Primalsea
07-01-2009, 19:54
At the last show I went to I was concerned that the next step in hifi seemed to be using 20mm alu plates here 30mm plates there, big chunky metal bits on that etc. It didn't seem to be what's inside thats important just how outlandish the cases could be made. Pride of ownership is one thing, I love the way Audio Research stuff is made. Yep the boxes are over engineered but they have stuck with the same asthetic and quality for a long time. They haven't just beefed up the boxes, left the electronics the same and charged a lot more.

Spectral Morn
07-01-2009, 20:01
Hi Marco

I really don't want to fall out with you but (while you are right about some High End Kit), being overpriced I wonder(and i don't want to be rude hear), but how much of it have you seen, heard and looked under the bonnet.

I have seen and heard hundreds of items over the years and looked under the bonnet, and I know you are wrong. You are generalizing and that is very unfair. If there is stuff out there that you feel is this way, sight examples and don't tar it all with the same brush.

You must also bear in mind about your Sony Dac (back when it came out it was £2500, half of the £5000 that the transport and Dac cost together. It was a flag ship design and thus highly subsidised in price. Sony lost money on this as did Marantz with their statement items. With all the Audio com modes, done to it, if you now put it out for retail what would you have to sell it at. A huge amount of money no doubt. Small companies don't have the same access to scale manufacturing as the likes of Sony had. So similar stuff back then was even dearer. I like the Sony R1 Dac, having heard one recently. However I suggest that back in 1989 when it came out you would probably have been critical of it too, as being overpriced.

It bugs me big time when people get a bad-on for high end kit. Most of the high costs are down to pound to dollar (only an example of currency)issues that make stuff dearer here ( UK ) than in their home market, sorry but the distributor and retailer need to make a profit. Yes there is over priced stuff out there which has nice fancy case work and crap inside (a lot of it coming from China by the way). I cant argue for the Nagra ( Swiss stuff is dear )as I haven't heard it, but lay of tarring everything as being overpriced crap. Your not being fair IMHO.

No one let alone me has said that good sound can only be got from very dear kit, but years of experience (just as valuable as yours by the way)informs me that quite often to scale the heights of whats possible costs money and lots of it. In the last few years lots of great value high performance stuff has come out. There has never been a better time to be a music enthusiast on a budget. However We will have to disagree sometimes state of the art performance costs money.

And as I have spent thousands on what I have, do you honestly think I would have if it was overpriced crap ? Please credit me with some sense.

D S D L -----Neil :)

Marco
07-01-2009, 20:05
Spot on, Paul, particularly this bit:


It didn't seem to be what's inside thats important just how outlandish the cases could be made.


That's exactly the issue I have with most of today's 'hi-end' hi-fi!

'Hi-end' for me should ALWAYS reflect on the quality of the components used, not on how 'fancy' the case is...

Of course, I value a nice looking piece of kit the same as the next man (observe the gorgeousness of my Copper valve amp, for example), but not to the extent that the vast majority of a manufacturer's budget has been spent on aesthetics or operational slickness so that its willy-waving badge-conscious customers can get a hard-on showing off their new 'toy' to their neighbours, and one is left with little more than an ornament instead of a tool for extracting the most information from music!

Marco.

Spectral Morn
07-01-2009, 20:10
Marco

Stop generalizing and tell us what all this high-End kit is ?

I firmly and strongly believe you are being very un-fair and disingenuous about the majority of the high-end.

Just my opinion, but you need challenged because of your sweeping statements. Something which bothers me big time, on Forums or elsewhere.

D S D L ---- Neil :)

Marco
07-01-2009, 20:12
Hi Marco

I really don't want to fall out with you but (while you are right about some High End Kit), being overpriced I wonder(and i don't want to be rude hear), but how much of it have you seen, heard and looked under the bonnet.


Plenty, Neil - trust me! I used to work in a hi-fi dealership in Glasgow and also help out at weekends at one in Chester, playing around with a myriad of hi-end kit in the process, not to mention having used and seen lots of very expensive gear personally out with of that environment.

You must realise that, without me wishing to appear a 'show-off', I'm in the fortunate position of being able to afford almost any hi-fi equipment I want - price is not really an issue, *BUT* I choose to be much more discerning than that. I buy with my ears and knowledge and experience, not my wallet, and that will always be the case for me with hi-fi! :)

Marco.

Primalsea
07-01-2009, 20:13
Neil, I agree with what you said some hi end stuff is expensive but very well engineered. However Marco has a point as well some is very expensive purely to give it the pretence of hi end.

I personally think that you and Marco have different equipment pictured in your minds when you type your posts

Marco
07-01-2009, 20:17
Marco

Stop generalizing and tell us what all this high-End kit is ?

I firmly and strongly believe you are being very un-fair and disingenuous about the majority of the high-end.


No I'm not. I'm speaking from experience, Neil, and have given you my background.

Do you want me to provide a list of every bit of rip-off kit I think that's out there? I'll do so if you wish but via email, not here, or phone me. I'll gladly PM you my number. I don't want AOS to be sued by certain disgruntled audio manufacturers, you know ;)

Don't get me wrong, some very expensive 'hi-end' kit is worth the money - maybe about 10% of it, but the rest... Nope!

No offence, but If you have a problem with that, then I'm afraid you'll just have to live with it, sorry.

Marco.

Spectral Morn
07-01-2009, 20:19
I want us to be clear about what and who is being accused off being a Fancy case and crap insides merchant.

I also don't want this to descend into who did what and where in the trade. As neither Marco or I are in the trade now lets be frank. Name names. Also I too was In a position as to being able to buy what I wanted and I too made careful choices in what I have.

Lets stop the sweeping statements and put meat into why you seem to have a BAD-On about most High End kit.

Lets have light and less heat please.

10% statement is totally unfair IMO.

Regards D S D L----Neil :)

Marco
07-01-2009, 20:25
Unfair to you it might be, but that's my opinion based on experience. I think we'll just have to agree to disagree on this, Neil. I've made my point more than clearly and logically. That's the end of the matter as far as I'm concerned unless you wish to have a chat off of the forum :)

You can answer me ONE question, though... What do you think is inside the Nagra CDP that warrants a price tag of £9k? I might get Mark from Audiocom International to comment on this, too, since he's seen inside many players of that ilk when carrying out his CDP modifications ;)

Marco.

Spectral Morn
07-01-2009, 20:40
Marco

This is not a case of being unfair to me. But you are presenting opinion as Fact without qualification and that is both unfair to those who come onto this Forum to be educated. I may have an idea of who you are referring to, but others don't have the benefit of our insight.

And while I agree there are rip-off merchants out there, to state that only 10% of the high end does not fall under your Fancy boxes and crap inside is both misleading and damaging to many who fall under the scope of your unsubstantiated comments, as 90% of all are in your camp.

I despair.

I think as in other case if comments can't or will not be explained then it may be better not to share them. Except in Nagras case. OKAY to slag them off.

Good Night

Marco
07-01-2009, 20:45
I see you never answered my question... How convenient ;)

No problem, though :goodnight:

Marco.

Gerry
07-01-2009, 20:47
Too bloody right!! I can think of plenty of CDPs I'd buy before the £9k badge-snob rip-off Nagra (and others of its ilk).

I would put my modified classic Sony (at a fraction of the cost) up against it any day of the week and expect it to piss all over the Nagra in any system you care to mention, quite simply because the former is all about maximum sonic performance and the latter mainly about aesthetics and willy-waving.


I would suggest that in 1989/90 your Sony in real terms would have cost more than the £9k for the Nagra.

I think some like for like comparisions would be fairer.

I'm not one for over-price equipment (and do think that there is), but really don't think it all of it is. Everything is relative. Usually when these sort of disscussions go on it is the green-eyed monster driving it.

Yes there is great satisfaction knowing you have something that cost a fiver and it is better than something that cost £50. Why don't we all wear £5 digital watches...they keep the time???

There is nothing wrong with someone wanting to spend their money on something which is asthetically apealing to them...if they have to pay for the looks, so be it. It is their choice.

The fact that many of us buy the gear 10 years or so later at a fraction of the price and enjoy it, mod it, make it better etc is fine.

Reminds me of the kids who spend thens of £1,000s doing thier Corsa's etc up....but really if given the chance most of them would have the Porsche, Evo etc. in a heat beat.

I am of course assuming that everyone has heard the Nagra, and had a good look inside it too???

Regards
Gerry

Marco
07-01-2009, 21:09
Hi Gerry,


Usually when these sort of disscussions go on it is the green-eyed monster driving it.


Not for me it isn't, I can assure you. I've already stated as much.


There is nothing wrong with someone wanting to spend their money on something which is asthetically apealing to them...if they have to pay for the looks, so be it. It is their choice.


That is not the argument here. Let me be absolutely clear where I stand on this matter without going as far as to name names...

The "hi-end" equipment I'm referring to is the extremely expensive stuff that retails at the high four or five-figure mark (or much more sometimes!) per item. Some cables also come into this category!

Quite simply, there is no justification for charging that kind of money for any individual piece of hi-fi equipment (or ancillary item) as far as the components used are concerned. After a certain price point you're paying for the 'prestige value' of a particular brand and therefore what the market will stand and build quality designed to be 'impressive' - all superfical to the purpose of what hi-fi should be about.

This is reality I'm afraid!

Your point about my Sony is a very valid one, but the difference is with that type of equipment the money has been spent under the hood, where it matters, as well as on superb engineering in terms of build quality and aesthetics. It's not, as they say in Glasgow, 'all fur and nae knickers'.

That's the key difference....

I'm not sure if you're familiar with that expression - do you get my meaning? :)

I just want to get the message across that hi-fi equipment should, at any price point, be first and foremost about sound quality - and 'fancy casing' (for want of a better description), slick controls, etc, should always be of secondary importance; in fact less than that - reliability and service back-up come well before it!

Marco.

Beechwoods
07-01-2009, 21:13
It's not, as they say in Glasgow, 'all fur and nae knickers'.

Why does this thread keep going back to ex-girlfriends :)

Spectral Morn
07-01-2009, 21:17
Marco

Firstly I did not see your question. I have no issue with you having ago at the Nagra if its poor value. I have never heard one or seen inside one,so I can't comment, in its favor or not.

My issue with what you have said is not related to the Nagra( I am not here to defend what I have no experience of ). However I have a lot of experience with the rest of the High End and my issue is with your sweeping statements about it. Not the Nagra CDP.

You just can not anywhere say 10% of the high end is good the rest is a pile of over priced crap and not be challenged.

You have not answered my questions.

As I have said perhaps it would be better to keep unsubstantiated opinion of the Forum. Yes you say you worked in the Trade as did I, no doubt we have both listened to and looked into a lot of stuff, maybe even the same kit. But I am sorry you can't and should not make unqualified statements like you have just done. Without putting detail into it.

If you where in Glasgow then it has to be either The Music Room/Audio Salon or Loud and Clear (the others don't have access to much overpriced (import ? ) kit. I take it it is import kit you are having ago at, or is it UK kit as well ? Without any detail this discussion can't go anywhere.

WHO ? has fancy boxes(not Nagras CDP) and puts crap/cheap components inside.

If you want to say that the current business model for distribution of High-End kit leads to over priced/pricing of kit in the UK market. I can agree with that. I can't think of anyway of doing it other than Pound to Dollar, so as to give the distributor and retailer a margin, unless you both distribute and retail ( as some do now) but most of these retailers just work on double margins. something which I think is unfair. However if you are just in it to make a profit, this is a good way to do it.

But the substance of what you have said has to be challenged and I am sorry but I will challenge it. You can not say that about 10% is not a rip off.

In my equally valid opinion this is plain wrong.

Regards D S D L---- Neil :)

Marco
07-01-2009, 21:26
Neil,

I thought you had said goodnight and were having an early night?

We're done on this subject I'm afraid as we're just going round in circles, and I don't have the energy to keep on arguing with you here. I've made myself quite clear. I cannot be any more specific as some manufacturers are known to have a penchant for litigation!

I'm not anti-Nagra (I love their tape machines) or anti-anything other than equipment I feel is a rip-off, or to be more precise and constructive, 'offers poor sound-per-pound value'. The funniest thing about the Nagra article Ken wrote (and I do usually like his style of writing) is him saying that, I quote: "[The Nagra] Machined from a block of solid aluminium, it weighs 4kg, attesting to filled innards". Oh, whoopy-doo! A massive 4kg, eh? Excuse me while I giggle uncontrollably...

The Sony X-777ES CDP I use as a transport weighs 17kg and I can assure you that it's not full of bricks! ;)

*That* is what you call "filled innards" - a testament to serious engineering. I'm afraid in that respect the Nagra in comparison is a toy, and an expensive, vastly overpriced one at that! But it is far from being alone. This is not an attack on Nagra, per se, it is an attack on the majority of 'esoteric' hi-fi produced today which is sold on the principles of 'audiophile jewellery' and not on the principles of ultimate audio performance, which is what hi-fi should be about. Remember that the "fi" is supposed to stand for fidelity!

Anyway, I'll PM you my number and you can phone me tomorrow - then we can discuss this as much as you like and hopefully have a good laugh about all this stuff :)

Marco.

P.S In the meantime, if you want to see what a 'real' CD player looks like {wink, wink} have a look here:

http://www.thevintageknob.org/SONY/sonyes/CDPX777ES/CDPX777ES-more.html

and here:

http://www.thevintageknob.org/SONY/sonyes/CDPX777ES/CDPX777ES.html# (the black one shown is the exact machine I use in conjunction with a DAS-R1).

Togil
07-01-2009, 21:51
Surely the price of equipment isn't just determined by the parts costs but also by R & D and the man hours if it's hand-made.

How much is Tube Distinctions' Soul Amp ?

Marco
07-01-2009, 22:11
Hi Hans,


Surely the price of equipment isn't just determined by the parts costs but also by R & D and the man hours if it's hand-made.


Of course R&D comes into it, but it's somewhat of a 'grey area' that can often be overstated so as to justify exorbitant pricing ;)

Specialist hand-made gear, such as the TD Soul amps, are a different ball game altogether from the kind of equipment I'm referring to, and although expensive (certainly not in the league I mentioned earlier), justify their cost through the sheer level of sonic performance and attention to detail on offer including aesthetics as well as circuit design and component selection.

Not all hi-end kit is like that or is designed with the principles Anthony has in mind when building equipment, and that's my whole point.

Also, I own one of his Copper amps. I won't reveal what I paid for it, as that's personal business, but it was well within the lower end of four figures. However, in terms of build and sound quality, it's up there with designs costing £10k or more.

Anthony's equipment designs and business principles epitomise for me what hi-fi should be about. He is in it for the right reasons, sadly unlike some others.

Marco.

aquapiranha
07-01-2009, 22:31
I agree with Marco for the most part here. There will always be people who's sole indicator of quality is the price, even if the price was high a good while ago and the kit was bought at substantial saving second hand. Often it appears too that people buy kit purely for looks, but why do that? a bit sad. I believe that there are far too many companies making fools of people with more money than sense, and that much of the available "budget" hifi gear is on a par sonically with the high price "esoteric" gear. Now don't get me wrong here, there are I am sure lots of stuff that goes some way to justifying it's eye-watering prices,but fancy cases do not in themselves good hifi make. I think if you can live with your decisions, base those decisions on sound principles and maybe even put up with something a little less "blingy" then you may be able to save yourself one hell of a lot of money.

A bit of a meander but I am sure you get the point.

Primalsea
07-01-2009, 22:47
It does make me laugh when people try to tell you that a £1000 peice of hifi is low end and then show you their very high priced , supposedly high end offering and it sounds utter shite. I'm sorry but a £1000 is a lot of money to any normal person if its not to you then please make out a cheque for £1000 to me. Oh I see £1000 is a lot of money now is it....

MartinT
07-01-2009, 22:47
The Sony X-777ES CDP I use as a transport weighs 17kg and I can assure you that it's not full of bricks!

My Sony SCD-1 weighed 26.5kg. I couldn't believe how heavy it was every time I picked it up. Beautifully made as the Ayre is, it's a lightweight in comparison (12kg). :)

Marco
07-01-2009, 22:54
My Sony SCD-1 weighed 26.5kg


That's interesting, Martin. There must have been a dead body (or something) in there right enough because your 12kg Ayre trounced it :lol:

;)

It's not all about weight, of course... Anyone can make something heavy, but I trust the point I was making is clear.

Marco.

Marco
07-01-2009, 22:59
Often it appears too that people buy kit purely for looks, but why do that? a bit sad. I believe that there are far too many companies making fools of people with more money than sense, and that much of the available "budget" hifi gear is on a par sonically with the high price "esoteric" gear. Now don't get me wrong here, there are I am sure lots of stuff that goes some way to justifying it's eye-watering prices,but fancy cases do not in themselves good hifi make


Hear hear, Steve!


It does make me laugh when people try to tell you that a £1000 peice of hifi is low end and then show you their very high priced , supposedly high end offering and it sounds utter shite.


Indeed, Paul. I've also experienced that many times myself :lol:

Marco.

Marco
08-01-2009, 01:41
Just noticed this...


A bit PFM, that comment. Strangely, I can't find the time to read every thread. Would that I could. But I can't. Yes, ignorance still exists at Stereonow. If it didn't, then what would be the point of me seeking enlightenment, hmm?

Howard, this is precisely why AOS has been very carefully 'catalogued' into relevant sections so that anyone seeking information on, say, turntables simply clicks on the 'Analogue Art' section where there is nothing but that type of discussion. Strangely enough, you'll find things written about the Technics 1210 in there - quite a lot actually! ;)

And there's also the search facility which gives you access to the forum's complete archive...

Marco.

Covenant
08-01-2009, 10:04
I feel duty bound to mention the Trends TA 101 amplifier. At less than £150 its a real star providing you have reasonably efficient speakers. Its so popular tweaks are available in the way of better capacitors, binding posts etc.
If you are looking for an amp for a smaller room or just a stopgap until something tasty comes your way then this one is worth trying.
http://www.desktopaudio.co.uk/trendsta10.1.html

Peter Stockwell
08-01-2009, 10:07
Howard,

It is indeed a shame that the offer has been pulled. I can't helping thinking that you and Steve got into one of those forum disputes because you inferred something that he may not have implied. Fora are a hotbed of miscommunication.

Anyway, I still love your editorial style and the perspective that you bring here.

Marco
08-01-2009, 10:10
Hear hear, Peter.

It's just one of those things that happen on forums from time to time. Howard, we lurves ya! :)

Marco.

MartinT
08-01-2009, 10:15
May I put a bid in for the Gram Amp 2SE? It's one very fine phono amp for just £200 and further upgradable with the PSU1-24 when funds permit.

Peter Stockwell
08-01-2009, 10:21
Marco,

I still think, too, that you affirmation that 90% of hi-priced hi-end gear is crap is, and I'm searching for the right words here, blinkered and dogmatic.

I don't deny that, for example, going from CDX2/XPS2/282/Hi to CDS3/555PS/282/SuperCap is not only obscenely expensive, but can only bring marginal improvements in musical terms. Naim are often accused of being poor value for money, particularly when it comes to the Chinese sourced components that are inside.

But developing high end gear, is as much that, i.e. development that has to be recouped somewhere. Now, there's also the school of thought that says that Hifi has no right to be a business, and as such all exchanges and commerce ought to be between true enthusiasts.

Anyways, nought wrong with lively debate is there? ;)

cheers

Marco
08-01-2009, 10:42
Definitely not, Peter - you know me from old! :)


I still think, too, that you affirmation that 90% of hi-priced hi-end gear is crap is, and I'm searching for the right words here, blinkered and dogmatic.


Indeed, but as I've already explained to Neil, I'm referring solely to equipment and ancillaries priced at just under four figures and beyond per item.

In my opinion any single item of hi-fi or cable priced at that level is priced so mainly due to its perceived 'prestige value' and what the market will stand. The sonic performance on offer was already pretty much 'maxed out' thousands of pounds back in its evolution. I'm sorry, but Naim gear is no exception, although from experience I know that they are company generally run under the right principles, and as such they will always retain my respect.

At the end of the day business is business, of course, and any company has a right to make a profit, but as an audio enthusiast that's of no concern to me. Some mark-ups made are plainly obscene. There is no justification other than the very greed Howard is referring to. I just want the biggest bang for my buck without paying for the 'prestige value' of badges and/or the (often) inflated cost evaluation of R&D. How does anyone other than the manufacturer know for certain whether the added cost of R&D is genuine or simply, how shall I put it, 'inventive marketing'?

For, say, a £10k or £15k CD player, or more, I would like to see the breakdown - especially the bit when they sit down and say: "Right chaps, how much do you think we can fleece the gullible badge snobs for today...?" Or words to that effect ;)

Anyone who doesn't think this sort of thing goes on in the industry is living in cloud-cuckoo land!

Marco.

Togil
08-01-2009, 10:59
An example of an underpriced item :

The original Quad ESL 63 . Apparently Quad never made any money on it.
The production of the panels is extremely tricky, now in the hands of skilled Chinese workers

aquapiranha
08-01-2009, 11:28
I feel duty bound to mention the Trends TA 101 amplifier. At less than £150 its a real star providing you have reasonably efficient speakers. Its so popular tweaks are available in the way of better capacitors, binding posts etc.
If you are looking for an amp for a smaller room or just a stopgap until something tasty comes your way then this one is worth trying.
http://www.desktopaudio.co.uk/trendsta10.1.html

Indeed. I had a modified TA 10.1 for a good while and I am now considering going back to tripath, though maybe I will try another design. I can understand why people "refuse to believe" that something so inexpensive can be so good, but that it mostly snobbery I feel.

Peter Stockwell
08-01-2009, 11:44
but Naim gear is no exception, although from experience I know that they are company run under the right principles, and as such they will always retain my respect.

At the end of the day business is business, of course, but as an audio enthusiast that's of no concern to me - I just want the biggest bang for my buck ...

There lies the crux of the biscuit. Bang for the buck, which is where the Technics SL1200/SL1210 is king.

As for Naim, they have a business model that, as you well know, is just about perfect, each step is more of the same and at twice the price. I love the way my gear makes music, but can't help thinking that there must be a tidier and cheaper way to do it (i.e. Accuphase, Luxman, McIntosh integrateds, for just one example. Or hot rodded Chinese sourced tube amps for another).

At the end of the day, most of us here, on PFM, even on the Naim forum are looking for music listening pleasure. I believe that there's a fringe, somewhere, that's looking for perfect audio reproduction. Which is where, to me, the insanely expensive highend lies.

Had an interesting discussion with some musicians the other day. One of them judges harp competitions. He made a distinction, and an important one, between musicallity (his word) and technique. He anecdoted a competition where the most talented technically did not win because the performance was not musical.

I explained to him how audio equipment most of the time get's in the way of listening enjoyment and obscures the musical performance. He knows me now, but when I first started talking in those terms he looked at me like I was a freak!

cheers

Primalsea
08-01-2009, 12:17
From what I have picked up over the years it would seem that the Naim upgrade path is one where the next model up is not actually better per see but just has less of the stymies of the next lower model.

I have listened to some Naim stuff and while initially impressive I found it a bit hammer and chisel.

StanleyB
08-01-2009, 12:35
More bangs for your bucks is a difficult one to achieve, especially when one has to keep an eye on the other issue called 'diminishing returns'.
Maybe many of us have forgotten how the Japanese took over the market in the first place when they introduced motorbikes, cars, etc. that were more feature packed, reliable, AND still cheaper.

Peter Stockwell
08-01-2009, 12:53
it would seem that the Naim upgrade path is one where the next model up is not actually better per see but just has less of the stymies of the next lower model.

I have listened to some Naim stuff and while initially impressive I found it a bit hammer and chisel.

If you mean that it doesn't track a musical progression as faithfully as other gear, i.e. it's more about attack than decay, from a note for note perspective. Maybe. I don't find my gear that way, but I don't listen to loads of other gear either. I think it is arguable that Naim systems curtail note decays. I've reached my current Naim level in 8 years, but I don't think that the next level in the range is worth the entrance ticket. Which is why bought a DualTeddyCapII, functionally the same as 2 HiCaps, but less than the cost, new, of one.

Marco
08-01-2009, 14:11
Peter,


There lies the crux of the biscuit. Bang for the buck, which is where the Technics SL1200/SL1210 is king.


Indeed. It's the best example of the above in hi-fi I can think of! I choose to use a modified SL-1210 not because that's all I can afford and I'm secretly jealous of people who are running SME30s, Clearaudio Master References, or a Brinkmann La Grange (perish the thought!), but because I enjoy the process of turntable 'tweaking' and transforming something which is inexpensive into something that's a veritable 'giant-killer'.

This is eminently much more fun and satisfying than simply dropping a large some of money on a 'badge' T/T, which every time I looked at it would have me wondering just how much of the thousands of pounds I've paid for it is represented in out-and-out sonic performance and how much is 'prestige value' or "R&D". 'Statement' products often created for people with more money than sense is not what hi-fi is about.


As for Naim, they have a business model that, as you well know, is just about perfect, each step is more of the same and at twice the price. I love the way my gear makes music, but can't help thinking that there must be a tidier and cheaper way to do it (i.e. Accuphase, Luxman, McIntosh integrateds, for just one example. Or hot rodded Chinese sourced tube amps for another).


Hence this is why I stepped off the Naim upgrade ladder, 'post-olive', some years ago, mainly because the new gear was going in a direction, sonically, which didn't appeal to my ears.


At the end of the day, most of us here, on PFM, even on the Naim forum are looking for music listening pleasure. I believe that there's a fringe, somewhere, that's looking for perfect audio reproduction. Which is where, to me, the insanely expensive highend lies.


I know what you're saying, and it could be the case in some instances, but I think the vast majority of the "insanely expensive highend" flatters to deceive in what matters most - sonic (and ultimately musical) performance. The clientele of that market in general are driven by 'pride of ownership' for all the wrong reasons - and that's me being polite ;)


Had an interesting discussion with some musicians the other day. One of them judges harp competitions. He made a distinction, and an important one, between musicallity (his word) and technique. He anecdoted a competition where the most talented technically did not win because the performance was not musical.


I like that! It sums up why audio designers of an obsessive 'measurement first' persuasion (AVI springs to mind) will never possess the lateral thinking required to design equipment that is truly musical sounding.

I've mentioned this in detail on another thread, but until some manufacturers and also audio enthusiasts (let's call them that) are in a hi-fi sense successfully able to differentiate between sound and music they will never 'get' what enjoying recorded music through a (truly) musically rewarding hi-fi system is all about...

Marco.

Covenant
08-01-2009, 14:54
Indeed. I had a modified TA 10.1 for a good while and I am now considering going back to tripath, though maybe I will try another design. I can understand why people "refuse to believe" that something so inexpensive can be so good, but that it mostly snobbery I feel.

Any particular Tripaths that have caught your eye Steve? I am on the look-out for a Tripath or ICE power amp.

Peter Stockwell
08-01-2009, 15:18
I enjoy the process of turntable 'tweaking' and transforming something which is inexpensive into something that's a veritable 'giant-killer'.


That's halfway to the diy approach. But, just as some people are happy to buy, say, a BMW M series, and others want to tweak the impreza, there is a place for those beautifully turned out products that have beautiful fit and finish and do what it says on the tin. What you like to do with the SL1210 and the Denon 103 I would say are on the "tweak the impreza" side of things, doesn't invalidate someone who wants top performance and top aesthetics and construction.



'Statement' products often created for people with more money than sense is not what hi-fi is about.


I wonder if this is really true for hifi; it's perceived by 102% of the worlds population as something for anoraked geeks who claim to hear things that even bats cannot. How many times have you heard non audiophiles (for want of a better word) say "I wouldn't be able to hear the difference, anyway"



[A]udio designers of an obsessive 'measurement first' persuasion (AVI springs to mind) will never possess the lateral thinking required to design equipment that is truly musical sounding...until some manufacturers and also audio enthusiasts (let's call them that) are in a hi-fi sense successfully able to differentiate between sound and music they will never 'get' what enjoying recorded music through a (truly) musically rewarding hi-fi system is all about...



Is it music, or is it accurate ? Maybe that's why Linns are so popular, they must do something that a lot of people like.

cheers

MartinT
08-01-2009, 15:42
But, just as some people are happy to buy, say, a BMW M series, and others want to tweak the impreza

My approach exactly. I wanted an M3 in principle, but prefer an automatic gearbox and diesel. So I bought a 335d Coupe instead and had the firmware re-programmed for more power. Now I have a smooth auto diesel that's very nearly as fast as an M3. Ideal!

Sorry about that off-topic comment. I'll make up for it further down :)

Marco
08-01-2009, 16:02
Peter,


That's halfway to the diy approach. But, just as some people are happy to buy, say, a BMW M series, and others want to tweak the impreza, there is a place for those beautifully turned out products that have beautiful fit and finish and do what it says on the tin.


Yes I fully understand your point, but you're completely missing mine. As such, we're in danger of meandering off into a totally different direction. What has "beautiful fit and finish" or "beautifully turned out" got to do with accurate sound reproduction? May I remind you what the "fi" in "hi-fi" stands for? Clue: it's not "fiddle" ;)

I'm sorry, but I see hi-fi equipment as merely a tool to do a job as efficiently as possible (enjoy high quality sound with my favourite music) - it is not something to be coveted or admired in the way of a sculpture or some other 'luxury' item which has no function other than its aesthetic beauty. Having equipment that looks and 'feels' nice is great, but that's a bonus.

Others may think differently about hi-fi equipment, and that's fine, it's their money, but the bottom line is that so much "obscenely priced" hi-fi fails to deliver, sonically, much or any better than judiciously selected equipment available at a fraction of its price – that to me is a disgrace, and the SL-1210 when suitably modified is a prime example of this.

Regarding the Denon 103, I haven't "tweaked" it (its physical construction or electrical operation have not changed in any way); I have merely provided the cartridge with the required platform in terms of set-up and ancillaries for it to behave as the manufacturer intended :)

Marco.

Dave Cawley
08-01-2009, 16:42
Well well; I wanted a C320 AMG estate, but automatic and a supple ride, so bought one of the rarest Mercs, a C320 petrol, bloody fast, automatic and smoooth.

For a turntable I chose a second hand SL-1200 and SP-10. But for a CD player a Marantz SA-7S1 with a Brink clock, bloody expensive, beautiful to look at, and sound wonderful.

If I had the money, I would by a Brinkman and simply not worry that it was 50 times the cost of a SL-1200 for 1% gain, I would stare at it and love it.

My two pennies worth

Dave

aquapiranha
08-01-2009, 17:00
Any particular Tripaths that have caught your eye Steve? I am on the look-out for a Tripath or ICE power amp.

Not as yet, but I am always on the look out! have you seen anything yourself recently that may be interesting? Maybe you should PM any ideas and keep this thread on topic!

cheers

Marco
08-01-2009, 17:02
Well well; I wanted a C320 AMG estate, but automatic and a supple ride, so bought one of the rarest Mercs, a C320 petrol, bloody fast, automatic and smoooth.

For a turntable I chose a second hand SL-1200 and SP-10. But for a CD player a Marantz SA-7S1 with a Brink clock, bloody expensive, beautiful to look at, and sound wonderful.

If I had the money, I would by a Brinkman and simply not worry that it was 50 times the cost of a SL-1200 for 1% gain, I would stare at it and love it.


That was nicely related, Dave. Fair enough, don't get me wrong, I know exactly where you're coming from, and I'm sure others may agree, but that's not what I'm into hi-fi for at all.

It just so happens that the equipment I like and consider sounds good happens to be built extremely well and looks nice - coincidence?

No, I guess that because I'm so selective with what hi-fi equipment I use the manufacturers concerned are also in tune with my desire for quality and provide it not only in terms of component selection but also in terms of aesthetics - kind of like the two go hand-in-hand with the type of products I'm likely to buy and who's designed and engineered them, if you get my meaning. And this can be done fairly easily without spending 'obscene' amounts of money.

It's not a conscious decision though as 'fancy casings' come way down in my list of equipment priorities. If it came down to it, I would use a set of boxes that looked like a dog's dinner if they sounded utterly fabulous, provided that they were reasonably built and above all safe and reliable.

I guess that it boils down to why you're in this game in the first place. For me it will always be about reproducing music as accurately and enjoyable as possible, not staring at, or 'petting' a piece of audio sculpture. I'm exposed to enough beautiful art in my line of work and enjoy the merits of this with objects for which that is their main purpose.

No doubt though that the BLG you mention is a beautiful bit of kit! :)

Marco.

Filterlab
08-01-2009, 18:13
I wonder if this is really true for hifi; it's perceived by 102% of the worlds population as something for anoraked geeks who claim to hear things that even bats cannot. How many times have you heard non audiophiles (for want of a better word) say "I wouldn't be able to hear the difference, anyway"

The things is of course is that they would be able to hear the difference. That is surely how people get into hi-fi in the first place, by hearing a hi-fi set up and noticing an immediate difference. Everyone that's heard my set up so far has been able to hear a clear improvement over their non-high fidelity systems, granted some more than others, but nonetheless an improvement in any capacity. That shows that most people can hear a difference regardless of whether they believe they will or not.

Now, I must pop out and collect my anorak from the launderette. :)

MartinT
08-01-2009, 18:16
Well well; I wanted a C320 AMG estate, but automatic and a supple ride, so bought one of the rarest Mercs, a C320 petrol, bloody fast, automatic and smoooth.

That 320 petrol V6 is a very nice engine, but I love my twin-turbo straight six diesel too :)

Similarly to your experience, I love the value for money of the SL-1210, Jelco, Gram Amp and Denon. They make a lovely noise for not much money. However, when it came to speakers I wanted the best and no compromise. The Usher Dancer Be-20s have met my every expectation and then some. And I love looking at them too.

DSJR
08-01-2009, 18:26
I don't mean to cr@p here and apologies in advance, but I've just read a slightly incorrect view IMO by Marco regarding AVI designing by measurement alone (I think that's how I read it). As I know BOTH of the main people there, I would say that sound design does come first, but their products are also listened to extensively as well - as tools to reproduce music through. The fact that they don't introduce distortions to "change" the sound of their products should hopefully be to their benefit. The designer doesn't post anywhere, sadly, but he's a great chap to speak to, as he will tell you why he's done something with no exaggeration or bull ;)

perhaps some of you have tried the above products and found them wanting, but my experience of them has been that they give you what they're given and will change in sound with the recording and production (accepting that their current little active speakers can't give you the weight and authority of a classic biggie like Marco's Spendor's (I bet the mid and top is good on them though........).

Marco
08-01-2009, 18:32
However, when it came to speakers I wanted the best and no compromise. The Usher Dancer Be-20s have met my every expectation and then some. And I love looking at them too.


Ditto with my Spendors, Martin :)

Speakers with gorgeous wooden cabinets will also always be more an item of 'furniture' than any amp, turntable, or CD player...

Furthermore, loudspeakers are rather different animals to electronics. Their 'problems' are generally more expensive to deal with and so in turn require the spending of more money on to get right.

The rules of 'sound-per-pound' are therefore applied differently to loudspeakers compared to electronics quite simply because a jump from, say, £500 to £1500 in the loudspeaker world will yield bigger sonic results than doing the same with, say, comparably priced CD players or some amplifiers.

Marco.

P.S Good post, Rob!

anthonyTD
08-01-2009, 18:43
Not as yet, but I am always on the look out! have you seen anything yourself recently that may be interesting? Maybe you should PM any ideas and keep this thread on topic!

cheers

i have some 200 watt stereo tripath modules that i built brand new but never used, obviously they would need a power transformer and case etc...
anthony,TD...

Marco
08-01-2009, 18:57
I don't mean to cr@p here and apologies in advance, but I've just read a slightly incorrect view IMO by Marco regarding AVI designing by measurement alone (I think that's how I read it). As I know BOTH of the main people there, I would say that sound design does come first, but their products are also listened to extensively as well - as tools to reproduce music through. The fact that they don't introduce distortions to "change" the sound of their products should hopefully be to their benefit. The designer doesn't post anywhere, sadly, but he's a great chap to speak to, as he will tell you why he's done something with no exaggeration or bull...


Dave,

I'm not disputing what you're saying about AVI's equipment assessment procedure - I'm in no position to do so as you clearly are party to inside information I don't have, however, I can only go on the image Ashley James projects to the outside world when representing AVI from his numerous postings on audio forums where he portrays himself as a measurements and science obsessive uber alles (and therefore also his company), and somewhat significantly, also on the content of the frequent emails he bombards me with regarding science and its association with hi-fi in order to somewhat pettily try and 'score points'.

Therefore one assumes his mindset and that of the company he manages are one and the same, which would obviously reflect on how they test equipment. You of course won't be aware of his latter email shenanigans.

"Bull" and what AJ writes on forums go hand-in-hand whenever the subject involves something which doesn't suit his AVI product marketing agenda, which is the reason why he's been banned from here and on other forums.

So forgive me if I've somehow managed to get things wrong! ;)

Marco.

DSJR
08-01-2009, 19:10
Marco, it's fine - he emails me too :)

You only see Ash and it's a huge shame you don't know Martin - the "other half," who really is a charming, quiet and sensitive soul, as well as being, in my opinion, a talented designer... It's for his sake as well as anything else that I attempt to defend the brand - Ash can defend himself. I really don't want to add anything else, or be accused (as I was once elsewhere) of sucking up to them, but the products are reasonably priced, good value on the used market and by now "should" be reliable and long lasting (he says, digging the hole ever deeper.........)

Anyway, I wish I had the readies to experiment with valves again. I can't even justify the price of a used GEC KT66 for my Quads at the moment, they go for such silly money (I have one on a promise though). I can then try the Croft preamp with them and see if the Spendors will work (the man who restores BC1's can't do the BC2 driver, but he found a matched pair of the correct sensitivity from some 1989 SA2's to drop straight in) and I'm enjoying them very much at the moment.

Come on Glenn, get your finger out and make some new kit.................

Marco
08-01-2009, 20:27
Dave,


You only see Ash and it's a huge shame you don't know Martin - the "other half," who really is a charming, quiet and sensitive soul, as well as being, in my opinion, a talented designer... It's for his sake as well as anything else that I attempt to defend the brand - Ash can defend himself.


I understand, but does Ashley realise just how much damage he does to AVI with his behaviour on forums, or maybe he doesn't care? I must admit to never understanding his marketing strategy - for me it’s more akin to commercial suicide!!

I have no opinion on Martin as I know nothing about him. However, it may interest you to know that he's a registered member here and has posted all of once (if indeed it was him and not Ashley or JC trolling):

http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?p=4234#post4234

Perhaps you could ask him next time you chat if he was responsible for that post? ;)


Anyway, I wish I had the readies to experiment with valves again. I can't even justify the price of a used GEC KT66 for my Quads at the moment, they go for such silly money (I have one on a promise though). I can then try the Croft preamp with them and see if the Spendors will work (the man who restores BC1's can't do the BC2 driver, but he found a matched pair of the correct sensitivity from some 1989 SA2's to drop straight in) and I'm enjoying them very much at the moment.

Come on Glenn, get your finger out and make some new kit.................


My sources tell me some prototypes are not far from completion, so keep a look out soon!

If I used KT66 valves I'd gladly give you some. KT88s is about as close as I get :)

Marco.

Filterlab
08-01-2009, 20:51
The rules of 'sound-per-pound' are therefore applied differently to loudspeakers compared to electronics quite simply because a jump from, say, £500 to £1500 in the loudspeaker world will yield bigger sonic results than doing the same with, say, comparably priced CD players or some amplifiers.

That's very true indeed, speakers tend to have the most influential character of all the links in the hi-fi chain. However, it is subjective to the individual whether a change of speakers actually "improves" the sound as opposed to simply altering the presentation and highlighting audible areas which are of the preference to the listener. Personally I've always preferred to work from the speakers backwards, in doing so I've found exactly the right sound with relatively little effort and expense. It has taken some years to find the sound that really satisfies me, but in that pursuit the speaker has always been the largest player in the end result.

As you've quite rightly said though Marco, the improvement per pound in speakers does appear to be proportionately greater than in source components and certainly amplifiers. I've no idea why though given that speakers are surely the most difficult component to engineer 'neutrally'.




P.S Good post, Rob!

Ta!

MartinT
08-01-2009, 22:38
As you've quite rightly said though Marco, the improvement per pound in speakers does appear to be proportionately greater than in source components and certainly amplifiers. I've no idea why though given that speakers are surely the most difficult component to engineer 'neutrally'.

Some speaker technologies are just very, very expensive to implement: e.g. Wilson Audio's composite materials for their cabinets; Usher Audio's beryllium midrange driver; Focal's sandwich cones; B&W's diamond tweeter. This is where you get a return on your investment.

Small American boutique speaker manufacturers excluded.

Peter Stockwell
09-01-2009, 07:48
I see hi-fi equipment as merely a tool to do a job as efficiently as possible (enjoy high quality sound with my favourite music) - it is not something to be coveted or admired in the way of a sculpture or some other 'luxury' item which has no function other than its aesthetic beauty. Having equipment that looks and 'feels' nice is great, but that's a bonus.


OK :) ! I get's where you's coming from now. In as much as I've driven, not owned, some of the worlds finest cars I prefer to put my available disposible income into music reproduction, the occasional concert, and holidays rather than a car. I drive a 2006 Clio III. Naim gear is arguably as ugly as sin, ask any woman ;).

I still like well made beautiful looking kit, but it's hard to stump up 6 times as much as Stan's Dac for a Benchmark, which I can't possibly believe ill be 6 times better, no do I believe it could be state of the art either.

So do you think a platine verdier is overpriced ?

cheers

Peter Stockwell
09-01-2009, 07:56
The things is of course is that they would be able to hear the difference. That is surely how people get into hi-fi in the first place, by hearing a hi-fi set up and noticing an immediate difference. Everyone that's heard my set up so far has been able to hear a clear improvement over their non-high fidelity systems.

Yes, nearly everybody can hear a clear and striking difference. But for many people music is just background noise so it's of no importance to them anyway. Even my sister in law, who loves the sound of my system, can't be bothered to get something installed at home that sounds halfway decent, she has other priorities.

I really don't know how people get into hifi these days, when I was a lad, back when dinosaurs ruled the earth, A hifi system was a must. Now it's a Play Station 3!

Filterlab
09-01-2009, 12:38
Yes, nearly everybody can hear a clear and striking difference. But for many people music is just background noise so it's of no importance to them anyway.

That's very true and more's the pity, since a young age I've always felt the quality of sound reproduction to be important, nobody else in my family has though.

Beechwoods
09-01-2009, 12:48
My dad was always into Hi-Fi and so it's been in my memes if not my genes since as far back as I remember. My little boy (3) thinks everything is a DDD player, including my turntable and reel to reels, but at least he knows what they all do. There are a lot of teenagers that might well have difficulty with those two :) He should turn out alright, I hope :lol:

Marco
09-01-2009, 13:33
Bonjour Pierre!


I get's where you's coming from now. In as much as I've driven, not owned, some of the worlds finest cars I prefer to put my available disposible income into music reproduction, the occasional concert, and holidays rather than a car. I drive a 2006 Clio III.


Indeed. We are remarkably similar in that respect ;)


I still like well made beautiful looking kit, but it's hard to stump up 6 times as much as Stan's Dac for a Benchmark, which I can't possibly believe ill be 6 times better, no do I believe it could be state of the art either.


I completely agree. I've heard both, and if I didn't have the Sony and was in the market for a new DAC, Stan's is the one I would be buying, most certainly not the Benchmark. Both are excellent DACs, but in terms of the all-important SPPV (sound-per-pound value) factor the Beresford is the one. In fact, I'm not even sure if the Benchmark is sonically superior in any way, not even by a small percentage.


So do you think a platine verdier is overpriced ?


I’ll go into some detail here as I would like to explain fully where I stand on the matter…

In reality it *is* of course overpriced, but what I would say is that if I were ever to drop serious cash on a 'hi-end' T/T then the Verdier would be right up there. The design, for a high-mass string-drive, is right up my street as it is 'functional' as well as elegant and doesn't look ridiculous or too much like something you'd find in a mad scientist's laboratory, which is my issue with many 'over the top' high-mass belt or string-drive designs. It also sounds fantastic, which is the important thing.

However, at the moment I would simply not entertain rearranging my whole system (and indeed room) to accommodate it. This is where the likes of the 1210 comes in because it offers huge SPPV, is 'functional', being extremely well-built and engineered, has nice 'clean' lines, sounds fantastic when modified, and it fits on my Mana rack! Apart from my issues regarding SPPV, there is no way whatsoever that I would do away with my Mana supports, or go through the rigours of having them modified, to accommodate some of the ludicrously priced 'hi-end' high-mass belt or string-drive turntable monstrosities on the market. The Mana supports are essential to my system’s performance and thus my enjoyment of music – and always will be. One's hi-fi system 'foundations' must always come first!

The sheer bulk and 'over-the-top' design of those sorts of turntables proves what lengths you have to go in order to overcome the problems of driving a turntable platter with a belt or a piece of synthetic string – most (or if not) all of which are solved by a competent direct-drive (or idler/rim-drive) mechanism in an overall much more elegant turntable package. That’s why for me SP10s and modified SL-1210s will always score higher than any bulky, high-mass belt or string drive T/T, yes even the magnificent Platine Verdier, particularly as when the former are sonically optimised you're not missing much or if anything at all. And 'bouncy', low-mass belt-drives with puny motor mechanisms in flimsy, resonant, 'fruit boxes' are just not at the races.

One should also remember that with having a dedicated music listening room the components I use, unlike with some other people, are not subject to 'WAF factor' scrutiny and required to fit in with the décor of a living room, so I can use whatever ever I want equipment-wise no matter how 'ugly' it is. That is why such things are of no real concern and I will always choose equipment tuned for maximum sonic performance first and foremost! Although, if you examine my system, you will see that I also own some nice looking kit, but that will never be a major priority of mine.

Returning to the equipment 'rip-off' part of the discussion, I would like to cite a rather valid example of what I’ve been referring to. Ortofon currently sell a range of very nice S-shaped tonearms outside of the UK market, namely the AS-309 S and others shown here:

http://octaveaudio-usa.com/products/ortofonArms/ - (scroll down a little to see the relevant bits).

If you note the AS-309 S retails for $1699. Now it is in fact Jelco who make these tonearms in Japan for Ortofon, and guess what, the same tonearm without the Ortofon badge is sold in Japan (I believe it's different again from the SA-750D) and costs, erm, a 'little less'! I don’t know the exact figure yet (I will find out) but my sources tell me it’s less than half the cost of the Ortofon, for the same arm, minus the badge and some minor superficial details unrelated to sonic design.

For further proof of this type of thing one only has to read the February issue of Hi-fi World on page 105 where Adam Smith reviews the Jelco SA-750D and says:


Not only did the classic and sought after Sumiko MMT and Audioquest PT9 models roll out of the Jelco factory, but there are a couple of current models from one or two prestigious [note the word "prestigious"!] manufacturers that are made there - possibly the distributors would rather you didn't know this, so my lips are sealed!


There you have it. It makes me appreciate what a total bargain I've got with the SA-750D and this of course pleases me enormously! I wonder if there is a UK distributor for these Ortofon arms? If so, I may just have spoiled his New Year...

Anyway, *that*, my friends, is precisely what I’m talking about and a prime example of where 'badges' have a built-in 'prestige value' with the end user paying handsomely for it! I mean you’d have to be a complete idiot to choose the Ortofon over the Jelco, wouldn’t you, if you knew both were available?? And consider this: how many other examples of 'prestige value' pricing do you think there are currently on the market? ;)

Marco.

Peter Stockwell
09-01-2009, 13:34
My little boy (3) thinks everything is a DDD player,

That's cute ;).

My Dad had a large influence on me from that perspective too; He thought he had to have a hifi system, his ultimate was Bang and Olufsen, he even had one of those B&O parallel trackers from the 70s. The funny thing was though, he couldn't stand listen to music!

He was a great singer and could sing harmony without even trying ! but would rather watch a crap TV. The only thing he really liked musically was opera. I thought that was odd, as Opera is astonishingly dificult to reproduce on a hifi system, but then I realised that there was something to watch whilst all that god awful music was happening. (I like opera).

Covenant
09-01-2009, 14:51
Its quite a relief to find people who dont need to spend huge amounts and get pleasure from affordable, good quality hifi components. In my case I have a fairly expensive AV system for family use. My hifi is in a much smaller living room and is only used by me. I dont feel great expense is justified for the hour or two a day its used.

tfarney
09-01-2009, 15:59
How did I miss this thread for all these pages? So much drama, so little time...

There have always been great values to be found in hifi. I've owned quite a few of them. Most have been dismissed by both the high-enders and the tweakers, but all delivered great sound per pound. From the view over here in the cheap seats, I'm not sure most of you are really talking about true bang-for-the-buck bargains. I'm talking about stuff like the Trends UD-10, which converts USB to optical, digital coax and AES/EBU very transparently with separate analog/digital paths, a re-clocker and a very respectable 16/44 DAC thrown in, pretty much for free. It's still a great bargain at $179 and an extra $25 for the battery power supply. When I picked mine up it was $122, $18 for the psu. It felt like stealing.

What might even be more absurdly high value/dollar is this horridly cheap-looking, tin-boxed Panasonic 7.1 surround sound receiver it feeds. The Panny is all digital, using the Equibit amps designed by Peter Lyngdorf for the TactT and currently used in the Lyngdorf line, the technology now owned by Texas Instruments and licensed to Panasonic. I know, implementation is everything and one would expect the implementation to be definitively cheesy, but these were getting such rave reviews on forums, and were priced, at the time, sooooooo cheaply ($160 USD, delivered), that I bought one on a lark. It is so far afield from the kind of gear typically discussed here that I feel it needs some further explanation...

What I got for my $160 is digital all the way to the speaker terminals, processing everything at 24/192 (for those of us who believe all the noise and nasties are in the analog end of things, this is big). When used in stereo, it sends two of its 100 watt amps to the speakers, unless they are bi-wired, in which case it sends two hundred watts to the bass drivers, 100 to the trebles (for those of us who believe headroom is half the battle, this is halfway there). The noise floor...well, I haven't found it...and the thing is incredibly fast, with bass control is as good as I've heard...

Would it appeal to the valve and vinyl crowd? Probably only in an ABX test :), but while it doesn't sound like valves, it doesn't quite sound like solid state either. It sounds open, clear and incredibly dynamic.

I expect it to self-destruct any minute now.

Tim

PS: I know Ashley from another forum, and while I can understand how his strong opinions, which are very different from those of much of this crowd, could come across with some difficulty here, I've always found him to be reasonable and well-informed. Of course that may be because I agree with many of his positions :).

Marco
09-01-2009, 16:38
Hi Tim,

Nice post! I'm sure some will find that very useful :)

You're right, I'm in a different zone with SPPV (or 'bang for buck' to you!) with hi-fi than you mention above. However, it's just a different level of 'giant-killing' in terms of equipment; I simply go after the 'big boys', and therefore a much bigger animal, that's all ;)

Regarding Ashley, you have a point, but his biggest downfall, regardless of his views on hi-fi, is his complete lack of people skills via a computer keyboard. I'm told he's very charming in real life; it's just a pity he can't translate some of that charm onto his posts on Internet forums then he might get fewer people's backs up, and also his views across better to a wider audience who possess a different mindset to him.

But he refuses to listen or change his approach and continues to bludgeon people to death with (I feel) somewhat narrow-minded, blinkered, views on hi-fi in his inimitable bombastic style with all the subtlety of a rather pungent fart in a space suit.

No matter how much you think you know about anything there's a time to listen and learn - he refuses to do either as he thinks he knows it all.

Marco.

P.S Just a small tip: if you don't want to miss anything in future the first thing you should do when logging-on to the forum is click on "New Posts" at the top of the homepage and everything you haven't read since your last visit will be listed for your perusal.

anthonyTD
09-01-2009, 17:01
My dad was always into Hi-Fi and so it's been in my memes if not my genes since as far back as I remember. My little boy (3) thinks everything is a DDD player, including my turntable and reel to reels, but at least he knows what they all do. There are a lot of teenagers that might well have difficulty with those two :) He should turn out alright, I hope :lol:

same here,
my dad was a service engineer,back in the days when they repaired everything from toasters to televisions! but my dads passions were, audio, and transmitters.
of course it was all valve back then...
anthony...

Marco
09-01-2009, 17:06
And that's what's made you the wee Welsh dafty you are today! :lol:

;)

Marco.

tfarney
09-01-2009, 17:39
Hi Tim,

Nice post! I'm sure some will find that very useful :)

You're right, I'm in a different zone with SPPV (or 'bang for buck' to you!) with hi-fi than you mention above. However, it's just a different level of 'giant-killing' in terms of equipment; I simply go after the 'big boys', and therefore a much bigger animal, that's all ;)

Regarding Ashley, you have a point, but his biggest downfall, regardless of his views on hi-fi, is his complete lack of people skills via a computer keyboard. I'm told he's very charming in real life; it's just a pity he can't translate some of that charm onto his posts on Internet forums then he might get fewer people's back's up, and also his views across better to a wider audience who possess a different mindset to him.

But he refuses to listen or change his approach and continues to bludgeon people to death with (I feel) somewhat narrow-minded, blinkered, views on hi-fi in his inimitable bombastic style with all the subtlety of a rather pungent fart in a space suit.

No matter how much you think you know about anything there's a time to listen and learn - he refuses to do either as he thinks he knows it all.

Marco.

P.S Just a small tip: if you don't want to miss anything in future the first thing you should do when logging-on to the forum is click on "New Posts" at the top of the homepage and everything you haven't read since your last visit will be listed for your perusal.

I've found Ashley a bit more charming than a fart in a spacesuit. Perhaps he has learned with time.

Yeah, bang for the buck is all relative. I think you might be surprised at how good the two examples I offered sound. You might even put them in the category with some of your own giant killers. And while I know it seems impossible that any kit at less than $200 could compete at that level, digital changes the paradigm. Or at least that's what I hear. When I bought that cheap Panasonic, I didn't really intend to listen to it much. But I keep finding myself going back to it.

Tim

Marco
09-01-2009, 18:15
Tim,

Nope, last I seen (on pfm - another UK audio site where he is a member) he's still the same old same old.

If you're ever exceptionally bored one day do a search for some of his old posts on here and you will hopefully understand how his belligerent, close-minded posting style rubs people up the wrong way.

The reason why you might not find him so is if you haven't seen him at his worst like I have (he is unlikely to be badly behaved amongst his peers on a site which suits the validity of his products), not only here but on every other UK hi-fi forum in existence, and/or because he thinks similarly to you, although you have a much more pleasant manner and non-aggressive posting style.

Anyway, enough about him.


Yeah, bang for the buck is all relative. I think you might be surprised at how good the two examples I offered sound. You might even put them in the category with some of your own giant killers.


I never say never with anything in hi-fi. I would reserve judgement until I ever get to hear the products you mention.


And while I know it seems impossible that any kit at less than $200 could compete at that level, digital changes the paradigm. Or at least that's what I hear.


I've got no doubt this happens in some cases but once you go a bit above that level (not to the obscenely priced 'hi-end' though) and judiciously cherry pick the best SPPV kit out there, which is what I do, (knowledge and experience tells you what this is) things move on considerably and you enter a different league, even in the digital arena.

Marco.

tfarney
09-01-2009, 18:36
I've got no doubt this happens in some cases but once you go a bit above that level (not to the obscenely priced 'hi-end' though) and judiciously cherry pick the best SPPV kit out there, which is what I do, (knowledge and experience tells you what this is) things move on considerably and you enter a different league, even in the digital arena.

Marco.

Oh, I've tested the waters quite a bit above that level. The Panny was a lark. It just turned out to be a very lucky, unexpectedly gifted one. The UD-10? You'll never get to hear it. There's nothing there to hear :). I have lots of knowledge and experience with audio, Marco, it just tells me different things. IE: We disagree.

Tim

Marco
09-01-2009, 19:57
We agree on some things, Tim :)

I get the feeling though that if you were ever to come over to the UK (I'd need to give you a map to find Wales, though, haha!) and hear my system, we'd agree on a lot more than you might think ;)

Marco.

tfarney
10-01-2009, 04:29
We agree on some things, Tim :)

I get the feeling though that if you were ever to come over to the UK (I'd need to give you a map to find Wales, though, haha!) and hear my system, we'd agree on a lot more than you might think ;)

Marco.

I'm sure we'd agree that it sounds very good for what it is, but what it is -- vinyl, valves and passive boxes, just isn't my thing, Marco. Been there, done that, moved on. Not necessarily to anything objectively superior, mind you. As I've said before, hifi is always a compromise. We just choose which compromises suit us.

Tim

Peter Stockwell
10-01-2009, 08:45
Bonjour Pierre!


Please don't call me Pierre, too many of them in this part of the world :)



In reality it *is* of course overpriced, but what I would say is that if I were ever to drop serious cash on a 'hi-end' T/T then the Verdier would be right up there. The design, for a high-mass string-drive, is right up my street as it is 'functional' as well as elegant and doesn't look ridiculous or too much like something you'd find in a mad scientist's laboratory, which is my issue with many 'over the top' high-mass belt or string-drive designs. It also sounds fantastic, which is the important thing.


I don't know exactly what Jean Christophe Verdier's mabufacturing process are, but he's definitely a cottage industry compared with the likes of Linn or Naim. I don't really think the Platine Verdier is overpriced, but I certainly agree it's expensive enough. A friend has one, and he managed to get it for 7000€ from J-C himself in 2004. In my friends system it does things that I've not yet heard any other turntable do, i.e. it get's voices and brass instruments so real it's spooky!



One should also remember that with having a dedicated music listening room the components I use, unlike with some other people, are not subject to 'WAF factor' scrutiny and required to fit in with the décor of a living room, so I can use whatever ever I want equipment-wise no matter how 'ugly' it is. That is why such things are of no real concern and I will always choose equipment tuned for maximum sonic performance first and foremost! Although, if you examine my system, you will see that I also own some nice looking kit, but that will never be a major priority of mine.


That helps big time :-)



If you note the AS-309 S retails for $1699. Now it is in fact Jelco who make these tonearms in Japan for Ortofon, and guess what, the same tonearm without the Ortofon badge is sold in Japan (I believe it's different again from the SA-750D) and costs, erm, a 'little less'!

...

For further proof of this type of thing one only has to read the February issue of Hi-fi World

There you have it. It makes me appreciate what a total bargain I've got with the SA-750D and this of course pleases me enormously! I wonder if there is a UK distributor for these Ortofon arms? If so, I may just have spoiled his New Year...



All good and valid points

cheers

Primalsea
10-01-2009, 09:58
This thread has drifted a little but here's an email we had in to work that is appropriate to the begining of the thread.

Did you know if you increased your prices by 15% you can lose 33% of your
customers and still make the same profit?

Keep reading...

But "there's a recession on" you say? So how can I put my prices up? It's
all in this short free video
<https://stompernet.infusionsoft.com/go/F5/SN200904/> from Formula 5.

It explains, how a "painting by numbers" method, you can differentiate
your product / services to justify 10 times the price increase.

You have to see this to believe it.

Dave Cawley
10-01-2009, 10:04
Well that depends. If your margin is small you might make more money. If your margin is huge (think cables) you might make less?

Dave

doodoos
10-01-2009, 10:09
Oh dear. Here we are slagging off high end equipment as a waste of money that only fools would buy. Pity this forum has descended to the standards of the others. I was expecting better. Here's an idea - say nothing unless its constructive.
I might have a Nagra cd player (weight 4kg) excluding power supply and feel totally gutted about the previous remarks! (maybe)

aquapiranha
10-01-2009, 10:35
Oh dear. Here we are slagging off high end equipment as a waste of money that only fools would buy. Pity this forum has descended to the standards of the others. I was expecting better. Here's an idea - say nothing unless its constructive.
I might have a Nagra cd player (weight 4kg) excluding power supply and feel totally gutted about the previous remarks! (maybe)

I have never heard Nagra gear, or even touched any of it! but even I can tell from photographs that it is incredibly well built with an attention to detail and construction rarely seen in any field, not just Hi-Fi. Also, it must have very high sound quality and be extremely robust otherwise broadcasters and reporters all over the world would not be using it. So, I do not think the equipment itself is under question, merely that it is so prohibitively expensive (to some) that is becomes almost ridiculous. There are many many manufacturers selling gear with a toroid and a couple of cheap transistors and a few boutique caps inside a flash case for silly money that it becomes easy to see it as a con. I do not personally see Nagra as one of those companies, and I am sure most here wouldn't either.

:)

Marco
10-01-2009, 13:14
Dear oh dear, indeed...

Doodoos,


Oh dear. Here we are slagging off high end equipment as a waste of money that only fools would buy. Pity this forum has descended to the standards of the others. I was expecting better. Here's an idea - say nothing unless its constructive.
I might have a Nagra cd player (weight 4kg) excluding power supply and feel totally gutted about the previous remarks! (maybe)

That's not what's this is about at all. No-one is "slagging off" anything.

I used a Nagra CDP as a SINGLE example of a modern hi-end CDP costing nearly five figures which IMO represents poor SPPV, the internal components of which quite simply don't reflect the asking price, certainly compared to hi-end CDPs of old such as my Sony and others of its ilk. I only use the Sony as an example because I know it inside out, but there are many more of its breed from Japan from during the heyday of CD.

If modern hi-end CDPs were built internally as well as externally like the Sony (and others from the era when hi-end CDPs genuinely deserved the title) then I would have no issue with the asking price. The fact is in terms of transport and PSU quality, not to mention many other things, the Nagra is a toy in comparison. I've seen inside of both CDPs, have you, Doodoos? A measly 4kg does not necessarily attest to "filled innards". And the Nagra is far from alone in this respect. I'm not anti-Nagra, but then if you'd been paying attention properly you'd have read that about 4 pages back ;)

'Fancy casings' mean little in hi-fi in terms of audio performance, but unfortunately that's what the focus is on these days with the most (not all) expensive hi-end gear to the detriment of what matters: out-and-out audio quality, quite simply because many (not all) of the people who buy this kind of stuff are not that interested in 'ultimate sound quality' - of far more interest to them is the prestige value of the marque and the feeling that they own something desirable and 'exclusive', so we're back to 'audiophile jewellery' again, which has nothing to do with hi-FIDELITY.

I could have used any number of examples but I chose Nagra purely because of Ken Kessler slobbering on about 'badges' and the "feel of the tray" and nonsense like that. AOS is first and foremost about championing kit which punches above its weight and offers high SPPV (the 1210 being a prime example), not glorified audio sculptures at prices designed to line the pockets of greedy manufacturers and distributors, and I will stand from the rooftops to proclaim this whenever necessary!

Yes, some outrageously expensive kit is 'worth it', and I will gladly say so, but more often than not it isn't and I will say so about that, too! We 'protect' nothing and no-one here - if something needs to be exposed it duly gets exposed, but equally, if a manufacturer, distributor or dealer are being treated unfairly then they will be defended accordingly.

Perhaps you now understand my point better now? :)

The problem is people read into posts the way they want instead of how the author intended, or scan through them quickly and miss the point completely, which you've ably demonstrated.

Anyway, moving on, Peter and Steve, I'll come back to you later. I have some home-made pasta and a rather nice Chianti which demands my immediate attention :smoking:

Marco.

tfarney
10-01-2009, 13:15
I can tell you, from a lifetime of experience as what you folks call a "marketeer," that there are no magic formulas and if you attempt to base your business model on one, you run a very high risk of having the market pull the whole thing out from under you. The only sure thing I've ever seen is know your target market's needs - particularly their emotional ones - and find a way to fulfill them.

I can also tell you that the target customer who identifies himself with a functional ideal is just as emotionally motivated as the one who has to have the "best" and most beautiful.

Tim

doodoos
10-01-2009, 13:43
Yes I have seen the insides of plenty of equipment thanks, though not the Sony. Personally my experience tells me that 'a full innards,plenty of weight' counts for bugger all. Sometimes simplicity of design can achieve greater transparency, imho of course.

Marco
10-01-2009, 13:53
'a full innards,plenty of weight' counts for bugger all.


Yes; sometimes. It's all to do with the quality of components used and their correct implementation; fortunately what's inside the Sony qualifies on both counts. There are also other players of its ilk which I could use to represent the 'old school'. The Sony isn't perfect - nothing is, but it's from an era when hi-end products genuinely deserved that 'badge'.

One trip to Japan to some of Tokyo's good hi-fi shops, even nowadays, would expose you to equipment with a standard of engineering and component quality which would put most of the British and European 'hi-end' to shame. A small example of this is the Jelco tonearms I referred to earlier.

Perhaps KK should compare his other favourite CDP - his classic Marantz CD12/DA12 to the Nagra? I think that in many respects he'd be in for a rather rude awakening...


Sometimes simplicity of design can achieve greater transparency, imho of course


Indeed - and it doesn't take £9k to achieve it!! ;)

Marco.

Marco
10-01-2009, 14:55
Tim,


I can tell you, from a lifetime of experience as what you folks call a "marketeer," that there are no magic formulas and if you attempt to base your business model on one, you run a very high risk of having the market pull the whole thing out from under you. The only sure thing I've ever seen is know your target market's needs - particularly their emotional ones - and find a way to fulfill them.


I completely agree! Your AVI friend's methods on hi-fi forums, however, are the complete antithesis of that ;)


I can also tell you that the target customer who identifies himself with a functional ideal is just as emotionally motivated as the one who has to have the "best" and most beautiful.


Hey, you're on a roll here - again I completely agree!

My 'emotional motivation' with hi-fi is to extract the very best performance from my system and in turn get the absolute most from the music I listen to - simple. It matters not whether equipment is new or old, valve or solid-state - all that matters in terms of my system is what equipment I think sounds the most musical.

My method of doing this is to cherry pick what I consider as the equipment and ancillaries (stands, cables, etc) which offer the best SPPV, thus assembling a synergistically matched system in the process, and to set it all up in such a way which allows everything as far as possible to realise its full sonic potential. I feel that I have achieved this, but one is always experimenting and learning :)

'Been there and done that' doesn't fit with my hi-fi mentality. If I think something needs revisiting, I will gladly do so and perhaps learn new information in the process that I missed the first time round. I detest absolutism in all forms and the blinkered notion held by some that there is 'one true path' in hi-fi - as such I will always retain an open mind, usually to my benefit.

Only fools think they know it all and have nothing further to learn, discover or achieve with hi-fi, or with anything else in life...

Marco.

doodoos
10-01-2009, 15:04
I hope you enjoyed your chianti Marco. Interestingly I see the Nagra now sells for £10950 - must be the exchange rate! Still a bargain of course.
My point is simple. If I were to audition two components at say 5k, weght/component count aside, if the lighter product sounded better to me,irrespective of whats in it, thats what I would buy if I were in the unfortunate position of not having heard anything better at less cost.:)

tfarney
10-01-2009, 15:22
I completely agree! Your AVI friend's methods on hi-fi forums, however, are the complete antithesis of that

Evidently you and I have read Ashley on different forums.


My 'emotional motivation' with hi-fi is to extract the very best performance from my system and in turn get the absolute most from the music I listen to - simple.

That's not at all what I had in mind, or what I would call an emotional motivation.

Tim

Marco
10-01-2009, 15:29
Well explain yourself better with what you had in mind then and stop being so cryptic, and I'll tell you if you're right as far as I'm concerned or not. We don't all have the mindset of a psychologist, you know! ;)

Marco.

Marco
10-01-2009, 15:41
Hi DD,


I hope you enjoyed your chianti Marco. Interestingly I see the Nagra now sells for £10950 - must be the exchange rate! Still a bargain of course.


Absolutely. I believe the badge lights up and plays a little tune when switched on now, too! :lol:

Yes the Chianti is rather nice, thanks, I'm still drinking it now :cheers:


My point is simple. If I were to audition two components at say 5k, weght/component count aside, if the lighter product sounded better to me,irrespective of whats in it, thats what I would buy if I were in the unfortunate position of not having heard anything better at less cost.:)

Of course, as I said earlier, anyone can make something heavy!

I posted these links earlier but perhaps you missed them? If you examine the internal contents of the Sony and its overall construction quality, this is what you call "filled innards" for all the right reasons, so there's a valid reason why it weighs 17kg!

Have a look for yourself:

http://www.thevintageknob.org/SONY/sonyes/CDPX777ES/CDPX777ES-more.html

and here:

http://www.thevintageknob.org/SONY/sonyes/CDPX777ES/CDPX777ES.html# (the black one shown is the exact machine I use in conjunction with a DAS-R1).

:)

Marco.

Spectral Morn
10-01-2009, 15:49
Above should say TOE

HI Guys and Marco


Marco refers to the magic days of heavy duty construction and the insides of kit full of components. Correct me if I am wrong but did the progress in circuit board design and construction as well as miniaturization(less bits needed to do the same as many before, Computers being a good example of this), reduce the number of components needed to do the same job. So if you built say a Sony R1 or Marantz CD 94 mk 2 Today you would end up with a lot of empty box as similar results ? could be achieved with less(multiple Function) parts. To my mind and recollection most modern electronics have seen the same parts reduction path. I am not saying this is better(certainly from a repair mans point of view, it is nice to see what you are working on without the aid of a massive magnifying glass,which was the case in the past, for the most part), from a sound point of view, but many will say that the modern methods are better ( ROHS excluded ?) and lead to quicker production(surface mount)etc. I know many who will not tackle surface mount components, as it is to hard and time consuming.

It could be argued that the fancy case work (some of it with a functional design goal in mind such as vibration control)may be the only place where such battleship build can be displayed. So its not just for looks. I know that my Marantz CD 7 has much more empty space in it that my Marantz Cd 94 mk 2, only the multiple HDAM modules helping to take up space in the CD 7.

Hopefully this is a little food for thought in regards the lack of bits in boxes now. Marco may perhaps in siting his Sony DAC bear changes in manufacturing in mind for its massive quantity of parts and nice case work(I have been inside an Sony R1 DAC so I know what its like. I must say I was a bit disappointed with it compared to say my Marantz CD 94).

However the central issue is also fancy case work and no quality insides (changes in manufacturing aside) and a lack of quality sound to match the retail cost. This would have to be looked at on a product by product basis.

I still think one aspect of price has so far been ignored and that is the origin of the product (is it a USA distributed item or from elsewhere in the world, not UK) because this will radically effect how much it costs. You have the makers costs + profit,the distributors costs + profit and finally the Retailers costs + profit. Three stages to cause the price to be high. You also have changing values in currency etc as a factor. Now if you make it and sell it direct, it will be much cheaper than the usual business model. This will of course alter the perceived value per cost to sound quality. This is part of what Marco is getting at(I THINK). Many now choose to design and have made in China, as this keeps the costs down as does the amount/scale of making you can do on your audio product. It is also possible to add value to your products as well by cutting out the middle men and thus not having to make to a retail cost price(to suit them), thus giving a better standard of quality at every level for a similar cost. If you only have your costs +profit to make (thus not having to factor two other sets of costs+profit)your final product will be so much better value for money and offer improvements in every area as you now have scope to put more into where it counts. Most of the early CDP products we are referring to were made on a loss for the companies who made them i.e Sony and Marantz. Flag ship products did not make money but instead showed what was possible for the technology.

Marco compared sound/value of the Beresford DAC (which I have not heard) to the Benchmark DAC (which is also a pre I think, and again I have not heard it). this comparison is perhaps not fair as Stan (by my understanding sells direct) and the Benchmark is sold via the 3 parts business model +exchange rate/currency(£ to $)issues, thus making it dearer. If Benchmark sold direct would that change the perceived value? I suspect it would.

Regards D S D L--- Neil :)

Marco
10-01-2009, 15:53
Hi Neil,


Marco refers to the magic days of heavy duty construction and the insides of kit full of components. Correct me if I am wrong but did the progress in circuit board design and construction as well as miniaturization(less bits needed to do the same as many before, Computers being a good example of this), reduce the number of components needed to do the same job. So if you built say a Sony R1 or Marantz CD 94 mk 2 Today you would end up with a lot of empty box as similar results ? could be achieved with less(multiple Function) parts.


I understand where you're coming from but in general that's not really what's going on. It is in some respects, as improved technology has indeed made some older parts redundant, but not always where it matters most. I would recommend you have a chat to Mark Bartlett from Audiocom International sometime, who is a member here and knows past and current CD and digital technology inside out. He has an excellent insight into these matters from carrying out modifications to many of today's CDPs, 'hi-end' or otherwise :)

I'm a bit busy just now so will deal with the rest of your post later.

Whatever way you cut it, though, £10k+ for a CD player cannot be justified in the areas where it really matters and I could demonstrate this fact anytime to anyone who was willing to listen. Unfortunately, Neil, your 'ex-dealers hat' is clouding your better judgement and skewing the relevance of your contributions, and I say that in the nicest possible sense.

Marco.

DSJR
10-01-2009, 16:03
My tuppence woth again.

Music is so emotional in our perception of it, that I'm not surprised by our emotional feelings for the gear used to reproduce it.

If I had high disposable income, I'd love to have something that performed well and LOOKED as if it did too, but as I haven't, I find great pleasure in older stuff that's stood the test of time, or some of the bargains referred to on this thread.

Back to AVI for a second. The electronics they once made are very good value indeed and even the 1992 CD player I once owned is still running and making good music. I'm very happy with the 1998 era preamp I of theirs I bought last year for example and realise I have to spend a heck of a lot more to equal it than the £215 it cost me. Ash is Ash and knowing him for sixteen years (since his ATC days) has allowed me to accept him as he is. I respect him because he could mostly prove what he was saying (and I was able to do similar things back in the shop), unlike the Peter Belt thingy and his disciple Jimmy Hughes, an old friend of mine. I could hear all manner of things at Jimmy's place but could never replicate them at home for some reason... I suspect the ADM9.1 is a fantastic value product and perfect for music lovers rather than gear freaks and it does seem that the antics/fallout on forums Ash has posted on seem to have caused much amusement among these sort of people, who've bought them anyway. It's certainly got people talking more freely about streaming audio as a valid source, alongside CD and those 12" groovy things :)

One thing I learned a fair while ago is that different people and rooms often need different solutions. I'm sure I'd have huge fun listening to your system Marco, yet I'd almost certainly enjoy Darren M's streaming ADM9.1/sub system too. Very different, but valid in their different ways.

doodoos
10-01-2009, 16:20
Thanks for the views Marco -a fine set of innards indeed!
With reference to the various markups inherent on imported goods I was wondering if anyone has had dealings with Robson Acoustics, who make speakers here in the uk.Apparently he makes bespoke speakers to order, based around some basic designs. One variant has just been favourably reviewed in HFW. No dealer network.

Marco
10-01-2009, 16:25
Good post, Dave. I'll get to it later, but I must really go now and attend to some things - that's the problem with really interesting discussions such as this, it's difficult to pull yourself away!

Before I go I just want to deal with something Neil wrote:


I still think one aspect of price has so far been ignored and that is the origin of the product (is it a USA distributed item or from elsewhere in the world, not UK) because this will radically effect how much it costs. You have the makers costs + profit,the distributors costs + profit and finally the Retailers costs + profit. Three stages to cause the price to be high. You also have changing values in currency etc as a factor. Now if you make it and sell it direct, it will be much cheaper than the usual business model. This will of course alter the perceived value per cost to sound quality. This is part of what Marco is getting at. Many now choose to design and have made in China, as this keeps the costs down as does the amount/scale of making you can do on your audio product.

Marco compared sound/value of the Beresford DAC (which I have not heard) to the Benchmark DAC (which is also a pre I think, and again I have not heard it). this comparison is perhaps not fair as Stan (by my understanding sells direct) and the Benchmark is sold via the 3 parts business model +exchange rate/currency(£ to $)issues, thus making it dearer. If Benchmark sold direct would that change the perceived value? I suspect it would.


That's all very well, Neil, but none of those costs incurred are of any interest to me (or I suspect many others) whatsoever as audio enthusiasts. We will simply buy equipment from the manufacturer who offers the highest SPPV - it's those four letters that are the most important to most audio enthusiasts - nothing else apart from of course decent build quality, reliability and service, which someone like Stan ably provides. But none of that need cost the earth.

If some manufacturers can't produce hi-end products for a reasonable price due to their various overheads and how they chose to operate then, quite simply, others who can will get the business, and this forum will continue pointing people in the right direction. It's a tough old world, I'm afraid!

I don't care if something is sold direct or not, what badge its got, where it's distributed from, whether it's made in China or Timbucktoo, in someone's living room or in a high-tech factory, as long as it delivers in terms of SPPV. I don't care what someone's costs are as long as I don't have to pay too much for them, and Stan's DAC is the perfect example of this. Quite simply, if at £200, or whatever, it to my ears outperforms a DAC at 20 times the price that has a fancier case and has incurred higher costs in its supply and construction then that is what I will buy and bugger anything else!

Why should I think any differently?

Laters,
Marco.

DSJR
10-01-2009, 16:38
Marco, don't change! It's people like you who now help people like me (it may have been the other way round once, but there you are).

I have an old mate/ex collegue who works at a very prestigious "Absolute Sounds" dealer in central London. They still have customers I believe, who are largely immune from the current economic climate. He was waxing lyrical about the "cheap" Transparent Audio mains lead (we'd been discussing the Naim one at a "mere" £400) and how wonderful it "sounded." A snip at "only" £760. I reminded him I got some good results out of my home made IEC plug, 16A three core mains wire and MK plug, which only cost me £6 or so. At least we laughed about it at the time.

I've got some maths "homework" to do. I'd much rather be blathering on here...

TTFN

Spectral Morn
10-01-2009, 16:42
"Whatever way you cut it, though, £10k+ for a CD player cannot be justified in the areas where it really matters and I could demonstrate this fact anytime to anyone who was willing to listen. Unfortunately, Neil, your 'ex-dealers hat' is clouding your better judgement and skewing the relevance of your contributions, and I say that in the nicest possible sense." Part of Marco's post from above

You can not remove the hows and wherefores of how kit is made and sold. The Dealer factor is part of the equation. It would be nice if all audio was made by craftsman companies and sold direct. This could well lead to much better sound for the money and I don't deny that Ecofan, Beresford and Anthony TD's business models as well as many others allow this. But many don't and they are sold via distributors, dealers etc. I am at a loss to understand why you feel my (ex dealers Hat)is such an issue. I understand what you are getting at as the main point of your posts have been (I think). However I think you are a wee bit blinkered about the issues here. Much of what is made and sold in every walk of life costs vastly more than what costs and profit the originator made. This is a fact of the commercial model. we all have to live with that even me. My ex dealers hat allows me to know exactly what all the costs are, who's making what and where. But as I said its the same with everything in life. I like buying from crafts people direct, its a pleasure to do so. However very little is done this way (unlike in the past, you can blame the industrial revolution for that one).

I can see both sides of the argument (as should you bearing in mind your ex retail past too). Anyway I had hoped we would not slide back into the mire of a number of posts back.:steam:

I am sorry that my contributions seem flawed to you but they our my perspective and I can't help that.;)

I think it is a shame that the 1940's,1950's and 1960's type of audio enthusiast is a rarity now days. the guys/gals who built their own kit, who understood how stuff worked and could fix it. You can blame big business for that too and the slow drip drip of our society into one of grazing mindless sheep.

However one aspect of your point, which I think is flawed badly is that, and you state, that many cheaper items beat dearer ones. This does not happen that often(my review of the Ecofan amp is a case in point) in my experience (which seems to be radically different to yours). However in my SYSTEMS and rooms over the years I have heard the massive differences between all types of gear and at all types of cost and I have yet to hear what you so STRONGLY are saying (much of the time). This is your opinion but I feel mine is equally valid. But cost alone is not the only factor there is the talent of the designer and what he or she can do. But I am sorry costing factors and business models play a part in this too and what the end price will cost the customer so how this is arrived at is a part of the picture.

Another major factor is System synergy. It could be that the sound of the cheaper product suits your system better than the dearer one and vice a versa too. In this context expense is not relavant all the time. It is simply a case of what works in what system.

I have no issue with recommending items that punch above their weight, but at the end of the day I am very uncomfortable with your statement of FACT, that high end kit for the most part is not worth the money. There are IMHE rare occasions when something comes along for very little that is revelatory, but this is very rare, which is a pity.

Let the listeners decide with their ears, in their systems etc. If they agree with you fine they save money if they hear what I have heard in my set up then they will equally be happy as am I( a bit poorer in terms of cash) but richer in terms of sound quality.

I also don't know why you keep banging on about the Nagra, I am not defending it as I do not have the knowledge or experience to do so.

Regards D S D L---- Neil :)

MartinT
10-01-2009, 17:15
My 'emotional motivation' with hi-fi is to extract the very best performance from my system and in turn get the absolute most from the music I listen to - simple

I agree completely with that statement, which is also my philosophy. What is fascinating, though, is what different paths we take to acheive that goal. We are influenced by what we read, what we hear at hi-fi shows and dealers, and ultimately what works within the context of our current system in order to create the next iteration of that system. None of us have heard all the components available, therefore we pick from our individual shortlists which is how all of our systems evolve in such different ways.

In the last few years I have bought one component at a time, always had a home demo and spent what I could afford to get the best upgrade possible while still keeping the system musical. I am shocked, however, if I add the total expense of my system: I did not set out to spend so much and could be accused of being brand- or build-conscious, but that would be to not know me very well (or to hear what my system can do). I believe my system offers superb sound value, but one man's Aston Martin is another's Lotus Elise.

Spectral Morn
10-01-2009, 17:18
"I agree completely with that statement, which is also my philosophy. What is fascinating, though, is what different paths we take to acheive that goal. We are influenced by what we read, what we hear at hi-fi shows and dealers, and ultimately what works within the context of our current system in order to create the next iteration of that system. None of us have heard all the components available, therefore we pick from our individual shortlists which is how all of our systems evolve in such different ways.

In the last few years I have bought one component at a time, always had a home demo and spent what I could afford to get the best upgrade possible which still keeping the system musical. I am shocked, however, if I add the total expense of my system: I did not set out to spend so much and could be accused of being brand- or build-conscious, but that would be to not know me very well (or to hear what my system can do). I believe my system offers superb sound value, but one man's Aston Martin is another's Lotus Elise." Quote from MartinT's post


I AGREE WITH WHAT YOU HAVE SAID ABOVE. I HAVE NEVER SAID THAT THE HIGH-END IS THE ONLY WAY TO AUDIO BLISS,BUT IN MY EXPERIENCE IT HAS BEEN FOR ME. MOST OF THE KIT I HAVE WAS SECOND HAND OR THIRD HAND WHEN I BOUGHT IT. YOU LISTEN WITH YOUR EARS AND BUY WHAT YOU LIKE AND WHAT SUITS YOUR SYSTEM. HOWEVER I HAVE ONLY VERY RARELY HEARD LOWER PRICED KIT BEAT DEARER KIT. IMHO/E SOUND IMPROVEMENTS HAVE COME WITH GREATER COSTS. SAD BUT FOR ME TRUE.

Regards D S D L----Neil :)

Marco
10-01-2009, 19:21
Ok, Neil, let's have a look at some of this stuff...


You can not remove the hows and wherefores of how kit is made and sold. The Dealer factor is part of the equation.


Indeed, that is if you buy from a dealer. I personally would rather avoid that where possible and deal direct with the manufacturer, given the costs incurred that you mention. I rarely use dealers these days unless I have to, apart from our Dave for his assistance with my 1210, which he does extremely well. He deserves my business so he gets it.

You also cannot remove the built-in cost of 'prestige value' either, which is rife in hi-end hi-fi. Did you read the Ortofon/Jelco example I cited earlier - do you think that's the only example of this sort of thing going on?? Make sure you answer this question please because it's central to our debate!


It would be nice if all audio was made by craftsman companies and sold direct. This could well lead to much better sound for the money and I don't deny that Ecofan, Beresford and Anthony TD's business models as well as many others allow this.


Yep. These sorts of products are precisely what AOS is about. Have a look at the gear featured in our banner. We will continue to champion the use of "craftsman companies" as much as possible because that is where we believe the real SPPV in hi-fi lies. Anthony TD's and Stan's products (at vastly different price points) both epitomise that philosophy. I would like to see more and more people using that route to buy equipment than paying vastly over the odds for a 'badge'. This methodology is also ably demonstrated by the Jelco tonearms, which are every bit as good as most 'hi-end' tonearms on the market from the likes of SME and plenty of others I could mention at a fraction of the price!


I am at a loss to understand why you feel my (ex dealers Hat)is such an issue.


Because you're being very defensive in your replies to the type of products I'm being critical of. I presume that's because of your dealer background and your love of the industry and therefore wish to protect the interests of such. If I'm wrong then tell me. However, I have no such biased loyalties! I am only interested in flagging up the best SPPV kit out there for the benefit of our members. This is what we're about on AOS. I couldn't care less about anything else.


My ex dealers hat allows me to know exactly what all the costs are, who's making what and where. But as I said its the same with everything in life. I like buying from crafts people direct, its a pleasure to do so. However very little is done this way (unlike in the past, you can blame the industrial revolution for that one).


Like I said, I am not concerned in the slightest with the costs of manufacturers - I will simply choose the gear I feel offers the highest SPPV, as would anyone else in my position.

However, there are a lot more "crafts people" or small 'boutique' manufacturers around than you may think, plenty enough to use to build a decent system with from the products they sell. My Croft preamp, TD valve amp and the companies I've used to modify my T/T and CDP are a valid case in point. There are plenty of 'giant-killing' products out there, Neil, and I will continue to recommend them on AOS for the benefit of our members, long before I will ever recommend some of the 'rip-off' high end merchandise in existence, examples of which I have already given - that will never happen!


I can see both sides of the argument (as should you bearing in mind your ex retail past too). Anyway I had hoped we would not slide back into the mire of a number of posts back.


My hi-fi retail past is ancient history. It has no impact whatsoever on my current mindset. As for "mire", as far as I'm concerned we're having a polite and robust debate between two adults. If you see it differently then you're reading something into it I'm not.


I think it is a shame that the 1940's,1950's and 1960's type of audio enthusiast is a rarity now days. the guys/gals who built their own kit, who understood how stuff worked and could fix it.

There's still plenty of that around if you know where to look! Some of it even goes on in our D.I.Y section ;)


However one aspect of your point, which I think is flawed badly is that, and you state, that many cheaper items beat dearer ones. This does not happen that often(my review of the Ecofan amp is a case in point) in my experience (which seems to be radically different to yours).


Well you can think it badly flawed if you like but my experience tells me differently and I can cite numerous examples of good quality, reasonably priced gear outperforming so-called 'hi-end' kit. The Beresford DAC is one - it outperforms or competes with many much more expensive DACs on the market from 'hi-end' manufacturers, not to mention the built-in one inside some of their respective CD players. The 1210 (when fully modified) is another valid example. Trust me my modified 1210 would give your SME 20 a hard time! If you don't believe me we'll try it sometime :)

Denon MC cartridges are another case in point - they can compete with and/or outperform MC cartridges at many times their price. To highlight this perfectly, Snapper (one of our Supermods) retired his £2000 Linn Akiva for an £80 Denon DL-160! He doesn't regret it in the slightest and considers the Denon superior!! And I know for a fact that my DL-103SA outperforms the Koetsus, Transfigurations, Lyras, Sumikos, and all manner very expensive cartridges I've used throughout the years.

All I can conclude is that you've never heard any of these products or perhaps never heard them at their best.


However in my SYSTEMS and rooms over the years I have heard the massive differences between all types of gear and at all types of cost and I have yet to hear what you so STRONGLY are saying (much of the time).


Indeed - I don't doubt that at all! Come over to Wrexham anytime and I'll gladly demonstrate it to you :smoking:


I have no issue with recommending items that punch above their weight, but at the end of the day I am very uncomfortable with your statement of FACT, that high end kit for the most part is not worth the money. There are IMHE rare occasions when something comes along for very little that is revelatory, but this is very rare, which is a pity.


Of course, but like I've said before (and I'm getting rather fed up repeating myself) the only stuff that I don't think is worth the money is when you're paying more for a 'badge' than genuine out-and-out performance. Unfortunately there are more examples of that in the extreme hi-end than there is of the opposite. The problem is your experience so far hasn't revealed this, whereas mine has.

Togil
10-01-2009, 19:55
If I want a great car, I have to pay for it.

If I want a great camera, I have to pay for it.

If I want a great HiFi different laws apply.

Why ?

Marco
10-01-2009, 20:12
Different laws don't apply. But it doesn't necessarily cost a fortune to have a great hi-fi and neither does it need a 'hi-end' badge - that's the whole point!

Jeez, do you ever feel that what you've been writing for 13 pages is falling on deaf ears... http://img3.mysmiley.net/imgs/smile/mad/mad0228.gif (http://www.mysmiley.net/free-party-smiles.php)

Marco.

Mike
10-01-2009, 21:14
... [Insert banging head against brick wall smiley here].

Done!

[edit] Damn!....didn't work! :(

Marco
10-01-2009, 21:16
It no workey, Mikey :)

Marco.

Ali Tait
10-01-2009, 21:19
Hi Tim,
May I ask the model of Panasonic you mention? I'm currently using one of my valve amps to listen to tv sound,and it's a bit of a waste of a good amp,as well as the finite life of the valves! The Panasonic sounds ideal for this purpose.

Beechwoods
10-01-2009, 21:31
[edit] Damn!....didn't work! :(

It does now... talk about sending a boy to do a man's work :doh: :lol:

Mike
10-01-2009, 21:36
Yeah...whatever! http://img3.mysmiley.net/imgs/smile/mad/mad0228.gif (http://www.mysmiley.net/free-party-smiles.php) http://img3.mysmiley.net/imgs/smile/adult/cooter.gif (http://www.mysmiley.net/free-tongue-smileys.php)

greenhomeelectronics
10-01-2009, 21:38
Hi folks, been a bit poorly recently so have only just seen this thread. A lot of folks saying all sorts of interesting things so thought I would add my 2p worth. I have had all sorts of stuff through my grubby mitts, I have heard some disappointing expensive stuff and some seriously surprising cheap stuff. I have seen some beautifully put together stuff that sounded pants and some cheap mass produced stuff that somehow sounded better. My current home system comprises of a Denon seperates system that probably cost less than a grand when new hooked up to a pair of home made speakers. Total spend was under £100. I enjoy listening to it every time I switch it on, especially when Mrs Dave is out of earshot and the wick can be turned up somewhat. The speakers were built and tuned to match the Denon and the room in which it all sits. I am sure if I spent 10 grand I would have a system that sounded different. As I enjoy my system as it is I will not be spending 10 grand, I will therefore be blissfully unaware as to whether that different sound is better or not. I must admit to having a very strong urge to build some more speakers with bigger bass drivers though, damn this hobby is addictive...

Beechwoods
10-01-2009, 21:39
Yeah...whatever! http://img3.mysmiley.net/imgs/smile/mad/mad0228.gif (http://www.mysmiley.net/free-party-smiles.php) http://img3.mysmiley.net/imgs/smile/adult/cooter.gif (http://www.mysmiley.net/free-tongue-smileys.php)

Oy you, nicking my smilies :steam:

I challenge you to a duel, my man! http://img3.mysmiley.net/imgs/smile/fighting/fighting0074.gif (http://www.thescubasite.com/Scuba-Diving-Techniques/learn-underwater-videography)

Mike
10-01-2009, 21:40
LOL... like it! :lol:

Marco
10-01-2009, 21:48
We need to add some of these smilies to our database, which reminds me of a long forgotten project for Rob :eyebrows:

Marco.

Filterlab
10-01-2009, 21:53
Blimey, I'd forgotten about that too. We'll have to obtain some member feedback to see what's wanted and what isn't.

Marco
10-01-2009, 22:01
Good idea! Fancy starting a separate thread about it in Abstract Chat? :)

The banging head against the wall one is a must. I think I'd use that one quite often!

Marco.

Beechwoods
10-01-2009, 22:07
http://img3.mysmiley.net/imgs/smile/sign/sign0101.gif (http://www.mysmiley.net/free-war-smileys.php)

I think this one's a must, in my experience :)

StanleyB
10-01-2009, 22:15
Excuse my ignorance, but am I correct in thinking that from what you guys are writing that it is possible to make a system sound better if you pay more for it? What I mean is if I paid £1000 for an amp, and someone else only paid £500 for the same amp, mine would sound better?

Filterlab
10-01-2009, 22:17
Excuse my ignorance, but am I correct in thinking that from what you guys are writing that it is possible to make a system sound better if you pay more for it? What I mean is if I paid £1000 for an amp, and someone else only paid £500 for the same amp, mine would sound better?

Good point mate.

Marco
10-01-2009, 22:38
The all-important badge is crucial, Stan - never forget this. If your amp had 'Nagra' written on it, for example, then yours would be extra super-duper, woopy-doopy-soopy-cooky, and sound more like a £10000 amp than a £1000 one :lol:

Have you tried sticking a Nagra badge onto your Beresford to see what happens? I'm sure you'd get better micro/macro dynamics and slam...

Marco.

DSJR
10-01-2009, 22:50
The thing is, a certain persons "rant" about middle men and dealers "slurping" all the profit from a product does hold true to a degree.

I remember so many US products which cost half as much or nearly double the home cost, retailers apparently having good margins too. Over here of course, their high prices give them a certain "cachet" in the same way that Naim has a small but very vocal following over there, despite the brand costing more there than the already high UK prices I think.

I was told on a few occasions that some of the big Krell amps were worth the money because the huge transformers, supply caps and costly cases cost loads to buy in or make. That's all very well if you like what they do I suppose, but to someone else, it's a waste of effort. I think some turntables would cost the earth as raw materials in the big ones and the cost of finish would be high. I must admit I felt the Ortofon arms were laughably expensive, but having seen their pricing policy on their current mm's - double the price for a fivers worth of "upgrade" - I'm not surprised.

I think with amps, the simpler they can be the better overall and this seems to work if the designer knows what to do.

Speakers can be more difficult. Harbeth and Spendor's classic speakers use expensive ply cabinets, yet WD have found a two layer MDF style material which possibly betters them all, as it has the mid purity of the ply, yet doesn't sound off in the bass as ply can.

The availability of cheap far eastern products and the almost zero profit of cheap DVD -players, TV's and especially computer equipment (well, windows based anyway) has distorted the true value of low production rate audio equipment, the former stuff being made in the tens of thousands and the latter in tens or hundreds. The SL1200 series, I believe, is made in batches of around a thousand or so, the line then re-configured for something else in between times.

Dave Cawley
10-01-2009, 22:55
The SL1200 series, I believe, is made in batches of around a thousand or so, the line then re-configured for something else in between times.

Great news, can you give me a contact name in Panasonic please?

Thanks

Dave

Marco
10-01-2009, 22:59
The SL1200 series, I believe, is made in batches of around a thousand or so, the line then re-configured for something else in between times.


Dave (DSJR and Mr Cawley), how much do you think the 1200 or 1210 would cost if a British or European manufacturer could make it? I'm thinking primarily of the drive mechanism here, but also the retail price today of a turntable finished to the same exacting standards of construction.

Marco.

Primalsea
10-01-2009, 23:00
Just for Marco and the lyrics he posted in the other post could we have a smiley pulling his one, two, three and foreskin back

Mike
10-01-2009, 23:03
http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/36/36_1_25.gif (http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb001_ZNxpt431YYGB)





http://www.smileycentral.com/sig.jsp?pc=ZSzeb112&pp=ZNxpt431YYGB (http://smiley.smileycentral.com/download/index.jhtml?partner=ZSzeb112_ZNxpt431YYGB&utm_id=7920)

DSJR
10-01-2009, 23:03
The SL1200 series, I believe, is made in batches of around a thousand or so, the line then re-configured for something else in between times.

Great news, can you give me a contact name in Panasic please?

Thanks

Dave

His name was Alan Ainsley, but he left there a loooong time ago and, after a stint at ATC, he ended up at QED last I heard. Perhaps things have changed and they now make shedloads more per batch - I did say "I believe........" and didn't say how many batches per year they manufacture.

StanleyB
10-01-2009, 23:05
This got me thinking about the old Sony D50 portable CD player. Those things were individually hand assembled, but were still not that expensive to buy. They still work till today as well if you can find one. Sony did the same with the Esprit range, but those cost the earth even today.

Marco
10-01-2009, 23:11
Here's something else that's nice from Sony's Esprit range:

http://www.thevintageknob.org/SONY/sonyesprit/CDPDASR1/CDPR1DASR1.html

I'm sure that I recognise it from somewhere... :eyebrows:


The first R1 units to be launched, the R1 combo was magnificently designed and luxurious in every way: Sony put all its know how about surface, color, finish, and feel to make one of the best CD player ever, one of the most beautiful, too, and probably the better remembered as well.


Indeed! But of course it's not a Nagra.. It weighs 4kg and has "filled innards", don't you know :lol:

Marco.

Filterlab
10-01-2009, 23:16
Here's something else that's nice from Sony's Esprit range:

http://www.thevintageknob.org/SONY/sonyesprit/CDPDASR1/CDPR1DASR1.html

I'm sure that I recognise it from somewhere... :eyebrows:

Marco.

Just reading the 1989 review, this shows the even response this combo has in stock form:

http://s560.photobucket.com/albums/ss49/aos_images/random_stuff/R1DAS1.jpg

StanleyB
10-01-2009, 23:20
During my years as a CD repair engineer I must have listened and worked on more CD players than I wish to mention. But the best value for money CDP I ever heard is the Philips CD960. I have never heard any CDP that sounded better from its own inbuilt headphone output or line output.

Marco
10-01-2009, 23:20
Ashley would be proud, Rob! I think I might forward him that for his reference :eyebrows:

Marco.

Marco
10-01-2009, 23:25
This is the daddy of them all, though:

http://www.thevintageknob.org/SONY/sonyesprit/DASR10/DASR10.html

Now *THAT* is what you call "hi-end" - just look at it!!

That's why I just laugh when I see what's passed nowadays as a 'hi-end' CDPs, Nagra or otherwise - mere toys, people, toys :lol:

Marco.

DSJR
10-01-2009, 23:26
I thought Ash liked the bigger Sony players, or have I got the wrong one?

I sold the CD960. A good player, if a little bit "crude" sometimes as I remember. I daresay a clocking tweak and some fancy caps and opamps here and there would make it a bit better again...

Marco
10-01-2009, 23:29
You've not answered my 1210 question, Dave! :)

Marco.

Marco
10-01-2009, 23:33
I 'struggle by' with the poor man's DAS-R10 fully modified though by Audiocom:

http://www.thevintageknob.org/SONY/sonyesprit/CDPDASR1/DASR1-inside.html

I guess one has to make compromises somewhere :eyebrows:

Note the tiny wee PSUs! ;)

Marco.

StanleyB
10-01-2009, 23:53
I sold the CD960. A good player, if a little bit "crude" sometimes as I remember. I daresay a clocking tweak and some fancy caps and opamps here and there would make it a bit better again...
They did that in the Marantz CD94, which is the CD960 in disguise. The caps were from Rubycon.

Spectral Morn
11-01-2009, 00:14
"Me too! Neil's just deaf and likes more expensive 'badges' ;);)" Quote from AnthonyTD System thread, by Marco

I will return to that later in a bit more detail, but first......

I certainly don't feel that is the case. ;) The components I have like yours are those that best allow me to enjoy the music I like, and that work in my rooms. As I said earlier (this point seemed to be ignored a bit) system synergy will have its say, just as the room lay out and acoustics will have its (much bigger say).

I am all for promoting quality gear, at whatever prices. If its a high hitter at low cost, I will cherish that item and promote it, but with the caveat it may not work the same in your set up as mine. Try it and see.

I know Marco was joking (I hope ;))with the above quote. But I don't want to be misunderstood I am not some lackey in the pay of anyone past or now. I will defend, and I am only defending my experiences in audio( they would qualify as being both those of an enthusiast and as some one in the Audio trade), just as Marco is. I feel that both sets of opinion are valid.

I must say and I think I have made it clear that I have no experience of any of Marcos kit(except the Sony R 1 DAC, unmodified and while good, not up to the sound of Marantz kit of the time IMHO. The sound was a little bit lean and forward in my set up and the treble suffered from a bit of grain, as much multi bit digital does from this time period. However modified and brought up to date/improved I am sure would solve these reservations and take it into another league), I would be willing to try any of this kit and offer a fair, open minded review for AOS, if anyone is willing to let me hear such kit and if it is run in(which would cut down on time). However this type of kit was designed as statements and thus did not result in anything but loss for those that made it. Battleship build was part of that, but remember that the scale of production skill available is what lead to R 1's, CD 12 etc. Smaller companies could not compete(in build but some did in sound). Quite a few companies back then would use the chasis of say a Marantz ( Microseki,Mod Squad, Deltec etc) and using that cost saving solution produce a much better product, though not always. I am in favor of using older kit to make it better/up to date, as long as qualified people do it(be that in business or a gifted DIYer), this is a valid approach.

I am an open minded person, and perhaps that has not come across in this debate (I hope it has, but maybe it hasn't). I am certainly interested in Marco's and anyone else experiences of (the Beresford dac etc). I find other enthusiasts experiences and discoveries to be the reason I hang out on Forums, but I am troubled by experience being presented as THE GOSPEL TRUTH. Not everyone will have the same experience with the same kit. As I have said component compatibility in your system will lead to variable experiences. This is important, as my listening to Deltec digital kit (single bit DACS, which inspired the top quote), in my system at the time which was not that high end ( I did not have much money then), was such that I did not like the sound (and this is important), in my then set up. The Deltec DACs and other bit-stream designs did not work for me. That did not make them bad, as many did like them, just that they did not work in my system, and that is all.

Anyway despite what it may seem, if i where ever in Wales(not likely in the near future) I would love to hear Marco's set up. Equally if he is ever in Northern Ireland he is more than welcome.

I have never been a fan of any one brand and certainly not (the big sexy badges ). I approach everything the same. I try it I listen to it and judge then, but only in the context of my set up. If I hear it in a number of set ups and a similar level of performance happens then a consensus can be got about it, either for good or ill.

Regards D S D L---- Neil :)

StanleyB
11-01-2009, 00:23
The sound was a little bit lean and forward in my set up and the treble suffered from a bit of grain, as much multi bit digital does from this time period.
That problem took me a while to figure out as to why it occurs in some CDP designs. I eventually did find the reason, and ended up looking for a solution. I say no more:smoking:.

Spectral Morn
11-01-2009, 00:32
Sensimilia
Quote:
Originally Posted by DSJR View Post
I sold the CD960. A good player, if a little bit "crude" sometimes as I remember. I daresay a clocking tweak and some fancy caps and opamps here and there would make it a bit better again...
They did that in the Marantz CD94, which is the CD960 in disguise. The caps were from Rubycon.

I remember quite clearly and while Marantz was owed by Philips, their production facilities where different. Philips had such poor reliability issues that Marantz made many of their products (back in the mid 80's and at other times). Philips back then was crap in terms of quality control. As the two companies were one by ownership, it was very, bad publicity for this fact to be well known.So one part of Philips had to bale another part out. Go MARANTZ.

Regards D S D L-----Neil :)

Spectral Morn
11-01-2009, 00:39
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dalek Supreme D L View Post
"The sound was a little bit lean and forward in my set up and the treble suffered from a bit of grain, as much multi bit digital does from this time period."

"That problem took me a while to figure out as to why it occurs in some CDP designs. I eventually did find the reason, and ended up looking for a solution. I say no more."
Quote from Sensimilia.

I know,I was very friendly with Eric Kingdom of Marantz back then(still am,when I see him at Shows), then Sony, then Marantz and then Sony. He offered to improve my Marantz and send a set of component swap suggestions. Which I never did(maybe I should some time or get AudioCom or your self to look at it). I will have a look for this sheet, I should still have it somewhere.

Regards D S D L----Neil :)

Marco
11-01-2009, 00:57
Good post, Neil. I don't have the time to reply to it just now in great detail as I'm off to listen to some tunes then bed but all I will say is that in my system there was never any issue of the DAS-R1 DAC sounding "lean and forward" or that "the treble suffered from a bit of grain", even before it was extensively modified and brought up to date with the latest highest quality components (retaining the best bits such as the TDA1541 chips, etc) by Audiocom.

When I bought my R1/DAS-R1 about 4 years ago (I used to have the matching R1 transport but changed it for an X-777ES when something critical went wrong with the R1 which couldn't be replaced) I paid £2500 for it second-hand and it replaced a £6500 brand new Naim CDS2/XPS2. It pissed all over the CDS2/XPS2 unmodified, and that was in a Naim system of NAC52/Supercap/135s (again all bought new) with my Spendor SP100s.

It sounded smooth, detailed and organic with beautiful texture to the bass and overall it was much more 'weighty' and analogue sounding than any CDP I had ever heard before - the complete antithesis of what you're describing. I discovered this was mainly down to the sheer quality of the transport mechanism, and most importantly, the TDA 1541 S1 DAC chips, which in my opinion (along with the S2s) when correctly implemented are the finest DAC chips ever made.

To cut a long story short, I then arranged for Mark Bartlett from Audiocom International to fully modify both units with no expense spared, so he replaced all the outdated components with the best caps, op-amps, resistors, etc, money can buy but retained all the best ‘classic’ bits like the TDA1541 S1 chips, etc. I spent about £1800 on modifications in total, so all-in-all my current CDP combo cost £4300, which isn’t exactly peanuts. However, the point is, it’s still a damn site cheaper than the Nagra at £10k! And I’d put it up against the Nagra or any other currently available hi-end CDP at any cost and feel that it would be as good as, or if not better, because I know that the money has been spent under the hood where it matters, unlike with most of today’s most expensive hi-end pretenders, where it's been spent on 'bling' to impress the Jones's and give the owner a hard-on.

*That* is where I’m at with hi-fi. I will spend whatever it takes to get the results I want, but if I can get £10k+ of CDP performance, or better, for £4300 then I will, and I’ll apply the same methodology to other areas of my system to get the same return on SPPV.

Do you see my point? It’s all about knowing exactly where and how to spend money, not just dropping silly sums on ‘badges’ because they’re seen as being ‘prestigious’ or ‘well-regarded’ in the hi-fi press. I couldn’t give a flying f*ck about such things. That's for willy-waving idiots with more money than sense!!

Anyway, I’d love to hear your set-up sometime and you’re more than welcome to come and hear mine. Perhaps we should do a mutual visitation sometime in the summer? :)

Right, I'm off to play some tunes - I've spent too much time typing shite to you (and others) today! :lol:

Laters,
Marco.

Togil
11-01-2009, 08:50
Well if I go to one of the companies in Warwickshire that modify cars I can probably get a Ford Escort that performs as well as a BMW and maybe someone can modify an old East German Exacta to perform like a Leica or Hasselblad but it's still easier for the ordinary chap in the street to buy the badge brand.

Where is the Bling on the Nagra, btw ?

StanleyB
11-01-2009, 09:06
You say that Hans, but the Escort RS2000 of more than 15 years ago has still to be bettered in performance by any BMW with the same engine size.
And neither would I put so much emphasis on the rebadged Panasonic Lumix range sold as a Leica.

Stan

Togil
11-01-2009, 09:32
I agree you can forget post-1970 Leicas

Primalsea
11-01-2009, 09:49
Is this the room for the argument?:)

I get the impression that we are going around in circles here a little bit. I see this happen a lot, one person seems to miss the point that the other is making.

It does seem to be the case that some hi-end is really just fairly standard gubbings in a nice case. The price is normally pitched not on a figure determined by the cost but instead on where the manufacturer thinks they can get away with inserting it in the market.

However it is also the case that some hifi is exceptionaly well designed and refined over months/years, uses the best parts and every bit is designed or choosen to work well with every other bit. Often in these cases you end up with something greater than the sum of its very expensive parts. It is logical that the manufacturer will want to price it accordingly in the market place. In these cases you get what you pay for and the price you pay is based on the same factors of the price you pay for any other luxuary goods.

Modifying kit is a great way of getting top performance for less cost.

Is it possible to get something for £5K that beats £10K kit? yes.

Is it possible to get something for £5K that doesn't beat £10K? yes.

You might get it bang on and get something truley special that does compete with the best. You have to remember though that some true hi end kit has been designed from day one with the best of everything to get the best performance possible.

Marco, if you were in the market to get a better transport and dac than the one you have now that builds on the attributes of the current, how much do you think it will cost? Think about it, a team of engineers take the fundamental principles of the current unit and then go back to paper and design and build from scratch something better and putting it into production.

This is where SOME hi end stuff is and should net be knocked for it. This is in stark contrast to the almost mad scientist type of hifi enthusiast who makes very expensive but quirky stuff that is priced at the top limit of where they think is the maximum their customers will pay.

Primalsea
11-01-2009, 09:59
They did that in the Marantz CD94, which is the CD960 in disguise. The caps were from Rubycon.

I think you might have a point here Stan. The CD94 has some awful PSU lines. Measure them with a scope - the noise is huge- the CD94 circut layout is one of the worst I have seen. I would say its on par with some low end kit. Changing to fancy regulators wouldn't help much as the PSU lines go all other the PCB with no attention paid by the designer to noise pick up and isolation of IC's from each other.

Marco
11-01-2009, 11:19
Well if I go to one of the companies in Warwickshire that modify cars I can probably get a Ford Escort that performs as well as a BMW and maybe someone can modify an old East German Exacta to perform like a Leica or Hasselblad but it's still easier for the ordinary chap in the street to buy the badge brand.

Where is the Bling on the Nagra, btw ?

Hans,

You're really not getting the argument are you? I'm not repeating myself anymore! Is it a German thing? Try reading what I'm writing properly, or perhaps someone else can explain it better? [Insert shakes head in disbelief smiley here]


I get the impression that we are going around in circles here a little bit. I see this happen a lot, one person seems to miss the point that the other is making.


Too f*cking right!!

And thank you very much, Paul. You're got it spot on. Finally the message hits home and the penny drops... I was beginning to fear for my sanity!!

Marco.

doodoos
11-01-2009, 11:24
Can't agree with Marcos' assertion that those who buy expensive 'designer' gear are a bunch of willy wavers with more money than sense. I do agree that modified hardware can produce some excellent results for less money however.
On the other hand it is pertinent to consider manufacturer/dealer backup should components fail, and the likelihood of spares being available etc (assuming you don't buy from Audiofreaks ha ha!) Also resale value is more questionable with modded gear.

DSJR
11-01-2009, 11:46
I think you might have a point here Stan. The CD94 has some awful PSU lines. Measure them with a scope - the noise is huge- the CD94 circut layout is one of the worst I have seen. I would say its on par with some low end kit. Changing to fancy regulators wouldn't help much as the PSU lines go all other the PCB with no attention paid by the designer to noise pick up and isolation of IC's from each other.

I can't remember the insides of the CD94 compared to mine, but the Micro has each stage encased in copper cans (stable door, horse, bolted?) and the audio output used is via the transformer coupled balanced outs. Micro supplied XLR to phono leads for this purpose. Tying in with your comments though, the standard analogue outs never sounded as good until cable ferrites were used when the gap was closed somewhat.

I still feel the machine (with old Trichord clock "2" which made a big difference on this one) equals many machines up to a grand or two, although I haven't yet heard the Cambridge 840C.

Marco
11-01-2009, 11:56
Paul,


Marco, if you were in the market to get a better transport and dac than the one you have now that builds on the attributes of the current, how much do you think it will cost? Think about it, a team of engineers take the fundamental principles of the current unit and then go back to paper and design and build from scratch something better and putting it into production.


That's a very valid point which is precisely why I will never sell the Sony as it would cost a fortune to build something like it now.

However, the fact is that many very expensive CDPs on the market now could have higher quality, more bespoke, parts used inside them (a better quality CD transport from the likes of TEAC than the fairly cheap OEM Philips type that's often used would be a start), not to mention bigger, better quality PSUs (you can never have too big a power supply in any piece of hi-fi equipment if it's implemented correctly - observe what's used inside the Sony, thus contributing to its overall weight), but the available budget instead is spent on fripperies (or 'bling'), 'fancy casings', trays, etc, than where it really matters, quite simply because as I've said before, many of the clientele for extreme hi-end equipment are more interested in the looks of what they're buying or the 'exclusivity' or 'desirability' of the 'marque', badge, call it what you like.

The bottom line is much higher quality components could be factored into the design and used with the same retail price charged if there was less spent on fripperies which do little, if nothing, to improve the sound. Players like the Sony hark from an era where designs were 'no compromise' and everything was optimised from the quality of the internal components to the casing, to the ergonomics, controls – everything was considered. Of course I realise that this would be ruinously expensive to implement today, as you have alluded to, but some of the extreme hi-end manufacturers like Nagra could take more of a leaf out of the Sony’s book than they are currently doing, especially with five-figure prices being charged! Where's the SPPV??

Do you see my point? It’s all about dividing up the budget so that the accent is on the best possible audio performance, rather than (more) the other way round.

As an aside, there are really only two ludicrously expensive CDPs I would consider buying nowadays (and even then I wouldn’t really because they’d be a complete waste of money given what’s happening with computer audio now), but at least they fit with my view of what 'hi-end' should be about, and that’s the Esoteric two-box transport and DAC and the Zanden, also because they are blessedly free of upsampling nonsense. Both look absolutely stunning and have that 'feel' of sheer quality about them, but also have it seriously 'going on' under the hood where it really matters…

There are perhaps a few other examples I could think of, but it is the exception rather than the rule for me to rate any hi-end CD players that are made nowadays. At the budget/affordable end it’s a different kettle of fish.

Marco.

Marco
11-01-2009, 11:57
Dave (DSJR),

You've still to answer my 1210 question about 3 pages back! Please... ;)

Marco.

DSJR
11-01-2009, 12:07
Dave (DSJR),

You've still to answer my 1210 question about 3 pages back! Please... ;)

Marco.

Is this the one about a European made SL1200 equivalent?

I suspect a European made one (from the groud up) would cost a heck of a lot more. I don't know for sure, but I suspect the tooling in Japan(?) has been paid for decades ago mostly and to sell in Empire for under £300, would have to leave Japan for around £100 or less, for all I know (remembering a certain well reviewed £320 speaker some years back which *apparently* left China fully boxed and ready to go for $14 the pair!!!!!!!!!!! :trust: Bearing in mind the huge dealer margins the "chains" can get on speakers if they order huge batches at a time, I'm not surprised.

Primalsea
11-01-2009, 12:12
Marco,

No need to keep going on;)

OK here we go, heres some expensive gear that I believe to be worth the high price tag.

Audio Research - My friend has a SP15 & M300 Monoblocks. In a word - Fantastic:)

Audiopax - Very expensive but from what I herd from a set of monoblocks (£13K) at a show, very, very good.

Here's some stuff that I worry about.

Emille - A Korean brand thats quirky to say the least. To me it seems to be fairly standard inards dashed with a spluttering of bespoke components in riduculously chunky metal cases.

Cant remember the name - These were a European brand of speakers that had 2 boxes per side. Price was a healthy £125K:(. These were one of the worst speakers I had ever heard.

aquapiranha
11-01-2009, 12:16
Cant remember the name - These were a European brand of speakers that had 2 boxes per side. Price was a healthy £125K:(. These were one of the worst speakers I had ever heard.

Gryphon?

Togil
11-01-2009, 12:18
Marco,

No need to keep going on;)

OK here we go, heres some expensive gear that I believe to be worth the high price tag.

Audio Research - My friend has a SP15 & M300 Monoblocks. In a word - Fantastic:)

Audiopax - Very expensive but from what I herd from a set of monoblocks (£13K) at a show, very, very good.

Here's some stuff that I worry about.

Emille - A Korean brand thats quirky to say the least. To me it seems to be fairly standard inards dashed with a spluttering of bespoke components in riduculously chunky metal cases.

Cant remember the name - These were a European brand of speakers that had 2 boxes per side. Price was a healthy £125K:(. These were one of the worst speakers I had ever heard.

Burmester is a brand that I would worry about paying so much for, even though their casework is very nice, I usually spend at least 20 minutes at the Munich show just looking at it :)

Marco, the Esoteric is Delta Sigma and oversampling, afaik

Marco
11-01-2009, 12:42
Hi DD,


Can't agree with Marcos' assertion that those who buy expensive 'designer' gear are a bunch of willy wavers with more money than sense.


Oh there are plenty about, trust me! It's one of the defining traits between British and, say, German or Greek audiophiles ;)


do agree that modified hardware can produce some excellent results for less money however.


Indeed. And more people should consider going down that route than dropping huge sums of cash on a 'badge'. People should think out of the box more, or indeed 'think' at all, instead of letting a dealer (sometimes) or a magazine do it all for them with predictable results! But everyone wants it 'easy'.

The fact is, you'll never get the best sound by always choosing the easy, predictable, route and buying equipment only from mainstream manufacturers - this is not where the highest SPPV lies.


On the other hand it is pertinent to consider manufacturer/dealer backup should components fail, and the likelihood of spares being available etc (assuming you don't buy from Audiofreaks ha ha!) Also resale value is more questionable with modded gear.

Indeed. Audiofreaks? Importers such as that are largely responsible for what's wrong with hi-end hi-fi now! Best not go there...

Service back-up is extremely important, but as I've said before it need not cost a fortune. Any small, specialist, manufacturer can offer a decent service if he or she wants to. Witness Beresford, Tube Distinctions, Croft, and all manner of other small companies.

Resale value is a valid point, but I guess it depends on how you use your hi-fi equipment and whether you're a box-swapper or not. I definitely don't come into the latter category as when something eventually makes it into my system it is usually there for years, it having been thoroughly tested and evaluated at home before being purchased, unlike the Ebay buying activities of some people where they change their gear more often than their socks, often with predictable dissatisfaction as a result. I don’t buy hi-fi equipment on a whim.

If you really want the best SPPV in hi-fi there is no easy 'quick fix' - you have to go the extra mile and do some 'leg work'!!

My view is spend whatever time is necessary identifying exactly what it is you want, find whom or where sells it, doing the necessary research via magazines, the Internet, or whatever, audition it thoroughly at home in the context of your existing system, or at least listen to it somehow before buying it.

This process can sometimes take me months, but by doing so I know that I won’t make any expensive mistakes and that I won’t be on a constant merry-go-round changing this that and the next thing; that done, I forget all about equipment, spend my money on music and, crucially, my time listening to it and not worrying about the sound!

If you go into things with the same thoroughness then resale value with equipment isn’t important because by the time you come to sell it it’s paid for itself long since!

Marco.

Marco
11-01-2009, 12:48
Marco, the Esoteric is Delta Sigma and oversampling, afaik


I'll need to look into that, Hans. If so, there is another Esoteric design on the market I'm sure which doesn't use oversampling, maybe the big one-box unit.

With CDPs, only genuine Red Book sounds 'right', IMO, and with minimal filtering. Upsampling adds a false 'sheen' and artificiality to the sound that just isn't right to my ears, which is why I don't rate the ludicrously expensive DCS players.

Marco.

StanleyB
11-01-2009, 12:58
I don't worry about resale value, modded or not. My main power amp, speakers, integrated amp and turntables are more than a quarter of a century old and the only way anyone else is going to get their hands on them is out of my dead, cold hands. When I boxed up some of my gear and put them in my loft when my first kid was born al of 21 years ago, my wife asked me why I was doing that. I told her that I didn't want him to ruin them as he was growing up. Even to this day he is barred from touching them.

Marco
11-01-2009, 13:10
Indeed, Stan. I sometimes wonder how many people on forums and elsewhere are into hi-fi for 'hi-fi's sake', more than the music itself!

Marco.

Togil
11-01-2009, 13:37
I'll need to look into that, Hans. If so, there is another Esoteric design on the market I'm sure which doesn't use oversampling, maybe the big one-box unit.

With CDPs, only genuine Red Book sounds 'right', IMO, and with minimal filtering. Upsampling adds a false 'sheen' and artificiality to the sound that just isn't right to my ears, which is why I don't rate the ludicrously expensive DCS players.

Marco.

Apparently NOS players are very difficult to produce because of environmental regulations affecting the parts

Primalsea
11-01-2009, 13:41
Gryphon?

I think it was.

How did you guess, was it the price, the fact that there are 4 boxes or that you though they were pants too.

Marco
11-01-2009, 13:43
Hans,


Apparently NOS players are very difficult to produce because of environmental regulations affecting the parts


That's true :)

And unfortunately it's not helping with the sound of modern CDPs. However, fortunately there are people like Stan and some others around who can think 'outside of the box' and implement other DAC chips, too, in such a way which fantastic sound can still be achieved for minimal outlay.

Stan's not alone in this - there are others, but his products and others like them epitomise what AOS is about.

Marco.

StanleyB
11-01-2009, 14:03
The main fault I find with modern digital reproduction is that the designers are unlikely to have heard and felt analogue music in their bones. I use my vinyl to double check that the CD equivalent is reproducing the same musical detail with the same finesse and impact. Even the HIFI Choice reviewers noticed and mentioned the word 'detail' in the same sentence with Beresford. It isn't a coincidence.
But I doubt others do the same. They are more likely to grab a scope and datasheet. One of my favourite reference track is Hotel California. If a wired up system can't play that track with the same amount of punch etc that I know is in there, I ain't rating it above 3 out of 5. Another track I use to test how well a CDP performs is Usher-Simple Things. It has a complete bass line below 40Hz that more than 90% of all cheap CD players I tried just cannot reproduce from their analogue output! How can any self respecting audio company then put in their specification sheet that their CDP performance is from say 20Hz to 200KHz at 0dB???

DSJR
11-01-2009, 14:09
I bet they can do a test tone or sweep below 50Hz and that's what matters to them IMO.

I still think you need to measure what's going on, but the best people do listen extensively as well.

Marco
11-01-2009, 14:15
Marco,

No need to keep going on ;)


You asked me an important question, Paul, and important questions will always be answered thoroughly :)

Marco.

StanleyB
11-01-2009, 14:22
I still think you need to measure what's going on,
Of course, but measurements of that sort only show steady state signal levels. Burst signals that do the 'punching' bit, or guitar strings that reproduce those familiar overtones won't mean squat to scope display. And neither does signal separation in a musical overlay. The ears can distinguish between two two similar instruments, but only if it is reproduced accurately.
It's these minor but important method of equipment performance measurement that is often overlooked in budget gear. I guess the expensive ones have more listening time spent on them, but again that probably varies from manufacturer to manufacturer. I toured the R&D facilities of many a manufacturer in my time and asked to see the testing room. Most of them don't have anything like like that as part of their R&D set up. The testing is done after the item is more or less ready to be rolling off the production line...

Marco
11-01-2009, 14:25
The main fault I find with modern digital reproduction is that the designers are unlikely to have heard and felt analogue music in their bones. I use my vinyl to double check that the CD equivalent is reproducing the same musical detail with the same finesse and impact. Even the HIFI Choice reviewers noticed and mentioned the word 'detail' in the same sentence with Beresford. It isn't a coincidence.
But I doubt others do the same. They are more likely to grab a scope and datasheet. One of my favourite reference track is Hotel California. If a wired up system can't play that track with the same amount of punch etc that I know is in there, I ain't rating it above 3 out of 5. Another track I use to test how well a CDP performs is Usher-Simple Things. It has a complete bass line below 40Hz that more than 90% of all cheap CD players I tried just cannot reproduce from their analogue output! How can any self respecting audio company then put in their specification sheet that their CDP performance is from say 20Hz to 200KHz at 0dB???

That is most interesting, Stan!!

It would explain why I find most modern CDPs and DACs bland and 'soulless' sounding, especially the ones that are mainly born from a scope and a datasheet!

I just goes to prove how it's much more important when designing equipment to use your ears than a bloody oscilloscope... Both are required, but if more emphasis is placed on the latter than the former then part of the musical message is missed (as you describe) and the end result is ultimately unrewarding to the ear.

As I've said before, it's a matter of differentiating between sound and MUSIC.

'Measurements-types uber alles', take note!!! I shall keep this excellent information for future reference :)

Marco.

Marco
11-01-2009, 14:28
Of course, but measurements of that sort only show steady state signal levels. Burst signals that do the 'punching' bit, or guitar strings that reproduce those familiar overtones won't mean squat to scope display. And neither does signal separation in a musical overlay. The ears can distinguish between two two similar instruments, but only if it is reproduced accurately.
It's these minor but important method of equipment performance measurement that is often overlooked in budget gear. I guess the expensive ones have more listening time spent on them, but again that probably varies from manufacturer to manufacturer. I toured the R&D facilities of many a manufacturer in my time and asked to see the testing room. Most of them don't have anything like like that as part of their R&D set up. The testing is done after the item is more or less ready to be rolling off the production line...


Keep it coming, Stan! This is really good stuff and confirms what my ears have been telling me for years!!


Most of them don't have anything like like that as part of their R&D set up. The testing is done after the item is more or less ready to be rolling off the production line...


That's bloody shocking! I wonder how many manufacturers, uber-'hi-end' or otherwise, are guilty of this lazy practice?? It's this attitude that's *SO* wrong in today's hi-fi industry and explains why, in real terms, we've gone backwards more than forwards as far as what really matters is concerned...

Here's a question to ponder: how come whenever so many of us go back to anything 'NOS' (or anything that employs 'NOS thinking' in its design) in hi-fi it invariably performs better than its current production (non-'NOS thinking' or 'NOS') counterpart?

I'd like people to really think about this! Could it be that we've not made as much progress with music reproduction in hi-fi as we might think...

Marco.

Primalsea
11-01-2009, 15:48
Most manufacturers of dac chips also sell the evaluation board which allows the dac to be quickly lashed up into a working model. The circuits of the eval board are often mirored in the datasheets as the suggested circuits to use. Some players I have seen have been just minor steps forward from the eval board or the circuits in the datasheet.

Marco
11-01-2009, 16:02
Shoddy, Paul, very shoddy, and full of superficial thinking... :(

It's because their mindsets are so biased towards measurements that they think nothing else is required to be done, instead of 'thinking outside the box', like Stan, and looking to preserve the integrity of the music signal as well as that of the sound or 'noise'! The two are very different.

Marco.

Spectral Morn
11-01-2009, 16:27
Marco

Did you say ;) ZANDEN. I am shocked, talk about overpriced, BADGE Audio. Now firstly I like the sound( and the looks) a lot when I have heard it at shows(not the same as at home, I haven't heard it in my home system). Having seen the inside of these(a lot of empty air). I must say that despite the quality sound, the PRICE is IMO, ridiculously high.

I would have thought that ZANDEN would have been near the top of your hit list(being against, not for). How can Zanden be/or represent good value.

I have an AMR cd 77 which has been likened to a "Zanden for the many". Its a TDA1541 based player with no filter and selectable sampling rates, valve out put stage as well.

Regards D S D L ----- Neil :)

Togil
11-01-2009, 16:40
Zanden is directed at customers in Hong Kong where , if something doesn't have an extreme price, it will not sell

Spectral Morn
11-01-2009, 16:45
Yes, my understanding is that there is a lot of mines bigger than yours (W---y Waving) action over there. Still doesn't make it good value for money IMHO.

Regards D S D L--- Neil :)

Peter Stockwell
11-01-2009, 16:47
A mate has a Zanden amp, or rather Zanden has his Zanden amp for repair, 12 months and still not repaired...

Marco
11-01-2009, 17:05
Marco

Did you say ;) ZANDEN. I am shocked, talk about overpriced, BADGE Audio. Now firstly I like the sound( and the looks) a lot when I have heard it at shows(not the same as at home, I haven't heard it in my home system). Having seen the inside of these(a lot of empty air). I must say that despite the quality sound, the PRICE is IMO, ridiculously high.

I would have thought that ZANDEN would have been near the top of your hit list(being against, not for). How can Zanden be/or represent good value.


It doesn't in any way. Simply, if you're looking to buy 'badge hi-fi' you may as well go for something that looks truly stunning (the Zanden kind of look and that of Kondo, DarTZeel and Goldmund gear epitomise for me stunning looks with hi-fi: I like 'clean', simple, lines and solid engineering) and sounds bloody good, too!

The bottom line is, if I'm to pay five-figures for a piece of hi-fi equipment I want it ALL with NO COMPROMISES, sonically or aesthetically, so that money has been spent where it matters and not on bullshit like 'prestige value' or badge snobbery. Very little out there (if anything) delivers on those counts, which is why I do what I do.

Marco.

Marco
11-01-2009, 17:17
Here's something I wrote elsewhere to Neil, which I think is relevant on this thread:


I respect genuine artisans - people who think outside of the box in their chosen field, where quality in all aspects of design comes first and foremost and where fastidious attention to detail in everything is of paramount importance.

You can get that surprisingly affordably with equipment if you know where to look. It's simply down to the goals and mindset of the designer and how much he needs to earn a living from his designs and/or that of the distributor or retailer. In terms of ultimate SPPV, outside of D.I.Y, the latter is crucial. The trick is to find passionate and talented manufacturers or designers (and dealers, too) who earn their main living outside of or in other areas of hi-fi, and so do it out of love more than money. Therefore, absolute profitability is not the main driving force behind their business.

And where to look for that is most certainly not in the high street, 'What Hi-fi?', or necessarily at your local 'hi-end' dealership...


Pay particular attention to the bit in bold - some of you may learn something there. There are a few of these people about if you know where to look! And that for me is where it's genuinely *at* with 'hi-end' hi-fi unless you've got money to burn...

Marco.

John
11-01-2009, 17:31
I heard the Hawthrone Duet yesterday and they certainly come into value for money bracket
The Duet's do not even need an active bass which is pretty impressive for Open baffles
http://www.hawthorneaudio.com/speakers.htm

Filterlab
11-01-2009, 18:49
Ashley would be proud, Rob! I think I might forward him that for his reference :eyebrows:

Marco.

Hehehehe, he'd be over the moon with it. ;)

anthonyTD
11-01-2009, 19:11
The main fault I find with modern digital reproduction is that the designers are unlikely to have heard and felt analogue music in their bones. I use my vinyl to double check that the CD equivalent is reproducing the same musical detail with the same finesse and impact. Even the HIFI Choice reviewers noticed and mentioned the word 'detail' in the same sentence with Beresford. It isn't a coincidence.
But I doubt others do the same. They are more likely to grab a scope and datasheet. One of my favourite reference track is Hotel California. If a wired up system can't play that track with the same amount of punch etc that I know is in there, I ain't rating it above 3 out of 5. Another track I use to test how well a CDP performs is Usher-Simple Things. It has a complete bass line below 40Hz that more than 90% of all cheap CD players I tried just cannot reproduce from their analogue output! How can any self respecting audio company then put in their specification sheet that their CDP performance is from say 20Hz to 200KHz at 0dB???

yep, couldnt agree more,
most people who know me will be aware that i do a lot of work with musical instrument amplification as well as hi fi, ie, guitar/bass amplifiers, [all valve of course]:eyebrows: and therefore i need to know how certain types of instruments perform through a range of sometimes widely different amplification designs, anyway, i did an interesting test a week or so ago with a few guitarists using a range of 5 les paul style guitars, two were original, three were good copies, anyway, this is where stan's earlier explanation rings true... we decided to do a blind test where two of us would listen with our backs to one guitarist playing all five guitars one at a time through the same amplification, and then we would write down which guitar we thought was which, now this is where it gets interesting, the guitarist played all five guitars through a modern type valve amp, the results were shall we say not conclusive, even though i knew the sound of both the genuine les pauls very well, i was only able to pick out one of them from the copies, and even then i wasnt a hundred percent sure, and the other judge who was also a guitarist was way off too, anyway, we then changed amplification to a more simplified older design, and the results were much more consistent, ie, the harmonic structure i attribute and recognise with these guitars became more apparent, needless to say, not only was i able to recognise both original les pauls, but also each of the copies too!
my point is, both amplifiers on test equipment tested very similar in frequency response etc, but as for portraying the individualism of each of the guitars, both amps were miles apart.
anthony...

Marco
11-01-2009, 20:09
That's a nice recount of events, Anthony, and demonstrates the difference between sound and music very well. Would the "simplified older design" amp have been one of yours? :)

Marco.

anthonyTD
11-01-2009, 20:39
That's a nice recount of events, Anthony, and demonstrates the difference between sound and music very well. Would the "simplified older design" amp have been one of yours? :)

Marco.
hi marco,
it wasnt,:( but it was a circuit that has been very well used through out the history of both fender strats and the les paul, and therefore one that many guitarists can relate to, ie, one that is neutral in its ability to allow guitarists to identify very significant diffrences and changes in harmonic structure asociated with particular types of guitars.
anthony...

Marco
11-01-2009, 20:46
No matter, it ably demonstrated the point you were making :)

Stan's post also ably demonstrates that our ultimate recorded music reference after all these years is still vinyl!

Progress, eh!

Marco.

anthonyTD
11-01-2009, 20:54
No matter, it ably demonstrated the point you were making :)

Stan's post also ably demonstrates that our ultimate recorded music reference after all these years is still vinyl!

Progress, eh!

Marco.

certainly makes you think!!!:confused:
A...

Primalsea
11-01-2009, 23:41
Think about it...
Vinyl is effectively an unlimited sample rate source that has none of the digital nasties over its effective analogue frequency range.

Better digital audio is measured mainly on having a higher sample rate that will never be able to reach infinity.

So why is digital better??

Marco
11-01-2009, 23:45
Sorry, Paul, you're got me there! ;)

Marco.

Stratmangler
12-01-2009, 00:30
For the last week I've had the good fortune to play with a USB ADC unit, the E-MU 0202 (gotta have one), and I've been recording vinyl onto HD using the device. I've recorded a number of vinyl albums in the past using just the standard laptop line I/O ports, and had reasonably good results. The EMU unit is just a quite superior piece of kit.

All recordings have been done as 16/44.1 sampling, and results are (with the E-MU) extremely good.
All recordings have, post editing, been converted over to 16/44.1 flac files (I have been using Squeezebox 3 / Beresford DAC for over 12 months as my primary source).

The convenience factor is immense !

My point ? Simply that more bits /higher sample rate does not guarantee superior quality - standard 16/44.1 can yield very satisfactory results if implemented properly.

Chris:)

Marco
12-01-2009, 00:46
My point ? Simply that more bits /higher sample rate does not guarantee superior quality - standard 16/44.1 can yield very satisfactory results if implemented properly.


Hi Chris,

I've been saying this for years. Up-sampling is completely unnecessary if 'NOS' 16-bit/44.1 is implemented correctly - but implementing it correctly is not necessarily as easy as some people think! ;)

To my ears, up-sampling players, particularly those using DVD ROMs, sound as artificial and processed as a supermarket ready meal tastes!

With CDP and DAC technology, as with many other aspects of hi-fi, the K.I.S.S principle is always the best method applied.

Marco.

Togil
12-01-2009, 08:14
Think about it...
Vinyl is effectively an unlimited sample rate source that has none of the digital nasties over its effective analogue frequency range.

Better digital audio is measured mainly on having a higher sample rate that will never be able to reach infinity.

So why is digital better??

Here we go again.

Firstly most vinyl comes from a magnetic tape which is made of particles causing noise. Eventually the music signal is masked by this modulation noise.
Also there is a limit to what the ear can detect, some research has been done on this although it is higher than the RB standard, of course.

Marco
12-01-2009, 08:23
Firstly most vinyl comes from a magnetic tape which is made of particles causing noise. Eventually the music signal is masked by this modulation noise.


That may be so, Hans, but it's not what I hear when I compare vinyl to CD (or any other digital medium). Vinyl done right to many people sounds more 'correct' in terms of how music 'behaves', as demonstrated by Anthony and Stan, and that's all that matters ;)

If we're going to properly understand the difference between music signals and sound in order to obtain equipment which ultimately sounds more musical we have to separate them properly and prioritise what the ear prefers, not the 'hi-fi bits' detected by measurement apparatus.

Think about it: if digital was superior in the way you consider then Stan wouldn't have to use vinyl as reference when designing his DACs, would he?

So something else is obviously going on which 'logic', measurements, or objective thinking isn't currently explaining, or certainly explaining fully...

Marco.

Filterlab
12-01-2009, 08:55
Think about it...
Vinyl is effectively an unlimited sample rate source that has none of the digital nasties over its effective analogue frequency range.

Better digital audio is measured mainly on having a higher sample rate that will never be able to reach infinity.

So why is digital better??

Has anybody claimed so?

MartinT
12-01-2009, 09:04
Has anybody claimed so?

Ok, I'll bite. I'm a big classical music fan, have a large collection of vinyl and CDs in both classical and rock music. For the enjoyment classical, I'd say that CD is the better playback medium. This based on much playing of both formats and many repeats of the same performance on both. I also have an extremely good high end CD player.

Ok, bring on the whining attacks!

StanleyB
12-01-2009, 09:54
Ok, bring on the whining attacks!
Is that the purpose of your comments? If it is then I don't think you deserve a reply.

Filterlab
12-01-2009, 10:00
I stand in neither camp myself, what I will say is that I prefer digital replay.

MartinT
12-01-2009, 10:14
Is that the purpose of your comments? If it is then I don't think you deserve a reply.

Of course not! Can you not spot humour?

StanleyB
12-01-2009, 10:26
On a Monday morning??? Monday is the worse day for jokes.

Spectral Morn
12-01-2009, 10:28
Hi Guys

The pros and cons of the Vinyl versus Digital debate are well known and have been thrashed to death and back countless times.

The explanation that makes most sense to me( not a full explanation, perhaps )is that Analogue matches the way our hearing works. The ear works by translating vibration into electrical signal( what does that sound like in terms of function? ) which is then decoded by our brains. Digital does not match how our ears work and therefore does not quite manage to convey what the natural world has to offer. This is in my opinion why it fails.

Despite its flaws(surface noise in the case of vinyl), most people who prefer it will say it sounds more natural and realistic than Digital. I will also say that all Analogue shares this trait too, and while Reel To Reel (done right), Vinyl (done right)would be at the top of this, the humble cassette tape (done right too, Metal,Chrome types), comes very close to the level of the former formats as well and is also IMHO preferable to badly done digital.

Digitals only advantage( there are many issues making it less than ideal.Digital distortion is worse than analogue IMHO) is the lack of annoying (potentially a problem, but not always so with vinyl)) playback noise(assuming the master used is silent/has low back ground noise), if you listen to music with lots of delicate, low level passages, Classical in the main but not exclusively(other genres also have such too). To my ear both SACD and DVDA had a much closer similarity to the sound of vinyl but even with so much more information(bandwidth) contained in those formats they still don't get quite there IMHO. SACD for me sounded more natural than DVDA. HDCD was/is also offers a significant boost to CD sound IMHO.

I do use CDP's as away to listen to music, but this is mainly down to lack of material on the vinyl format(though that is improving), and also to the aforementioned noise issue(I do listen to a lot of music which has gentle, delicate parts). However with first rate vinyl playback and vinyl in good condition, this is much less of an issue for me as it was when I first got into music and used a Panasonic Music Center. I have come along way since then.

Regards D S D L---- Neil:)

Marco
12-01-2009, 10:35
Stanley, are you a bit grumpy this morning? ;)

I certainly got the humour in your remark, Martin. No "whining attacks" necessary.

I can understand how you feel that way about Classical music (something I rarely listen to myself and therefore it's not an issue) because in general CD is simply an all-round 'better' and more convenient medium to appreciate Classical music with, namely because the quiet passages (of which there are many) are 'quieter' due to the absence of surface noise, even with pristine records, and much more importantly, there is infinitely more new Classical music available on CD than on vinyl.

I now know why you rate SACD, as some of the classical recordings on SACD are stunning, less so with other types of music, in my opinion :)

However, whether or not CD or SACD reproduces the rest of the music other than the quiet passages better (and I mean more accurate in a 'musical' sense as is currently being argued) than with vinyl, is debatable. Personal preference in these situations as always applies.

Marco.

Filterlab
12-01-2009, 10:38
Personal preference in these situations as always applies.

Amen to that! :)

Marco
12-01-2009, 10:39
The explanation that makes most sense to me( not a full explanation, perhaps )is that Analogue matches the way our hearing works. The ear works by translating vibration into electrical signal( what does that sound like in terms of function? ) which is then decoded by our brains. Digital does not match how our ears work and therefore does not quite manage to convey what the natural world has to offer. This is in my opinion why it fails.


I would wholeheartedly agree with that, Neil. Reading the rest of your post, too, I feel that you and I think very similarly in many respects with hi-fi :)

Marco.

Spectral Morn
12-01-2009, 10:46
Perhaps Valves also share this(analogue) trait as well, sounding more natural and realistic for the most part to SS. Maybe this is why I prefer the sound of valve technology.

Regards D S D L---- Neil:)

Filterlab
12-01-2009, 11:08
The explanation that makes most sense to me( not a full explanation, perhaps )is that Analogue matches the way our hearing works.

What that explanation fails to address is that the capturing device (microphone) and the replay transducer (speaker) are both still analogue, digital is simply a storage medium - unless someone's found a way to listen directly to a binary digital signal.

MartinT
12-01-2009, 11:18
I now know why you rate SACD, as some of the classical recordings on SACD are stunning, less so with other types of music, in my opinion :)

However, whether or not CD or SACD reproduces the rest of the music other than the quiet passages better (and I mean more accurate in a 'musical' sense as is currently being argued) than with vinyl, is debatable. Personal preference in these situations as always applies.

Yes, I do like SACD for classical, although I don't have that many discs in the genre (maybe 30 or so). And I certainly agree that we are talking about personal preferences here: in fact, I am not averse to playing classical vinyl, it's just that I find the surface noise, limited dynamic swings, side breaks etc. a little distracting.

For instance, one example: I have the fabulous Klaus Tennstedt recording of Mahler's 2nd Symphony on EMI on both formats. I owned the vinyl from when it was released in 1982 and know it very well. By the way, it's an analogue recording. When I first bought the CD, it didn't seem to offer anything more than the LPs but I didn't have the CDP then that I have now.

When I play the CD now, it reproduces that fff 'moment' in the first movement like a punch between the eyes. The LP just cannot reach that level of dynamic burst. During the sublime 'Urlicht' (fourth movement), the levels are very low and the tension incredibly high; the CD allows you to fall into that moment, the LP's surface noise is a big distraction. Finally, the CD plays the big fifth movement as one, the LP has a necessary side break.

As for the rest of the sound, the acoustic of the concert hall and the playing of the LPO come through very clearly in both formats and there is little to differentiate them. Overall, the CD sounds preferable to my ears.

Marco
12-01-2009, 11:19
Perhaps Valves also share this(analogue) trait as well, sounding more natural and realistic for the most part to SS. Maybe this is why I prefer the sound of valve technology.


Same here, Neil, and we're far from alone :)

Like I've said, I think the key lies in being able to successfully differentiate between a genuinely musical sound and a 'hi-fi sound', and then successfully identifying the equipment which reproduces those traits. With the best will in the world, it's quite obvious that not everyone has the skill to do that. And this applies at both ends of the chain - to equipment designers and listeners.

Valves, in my experience, unquestionably have more to offer in this area than solid-state quite simply because I feel that they better replicate the natural distortions present in music, and that's why the sound they produce is more faithful to the 'musical message', but not necessarily the 'sound'. It's this 'sound' v. 'music signal' thing again.

Remember that with hi-fi equipment all we're effectively doing is choosing our own brand of distortion because nothing is 'distortion-free'. In my view, based on extensive listening experience, the distortion produced by valve equipment is more 'natural' and therefore better suits the ear's way of processing music signals.

Marco.

MartinT
12-01-2009, 11:19
On a Monday morning??? Monday is the worse day for jokes.

Sorry, I'll reserve jokes for Tuesday onwards :)

Spectral Morn
12-01-2009, 11:22
Hi Filterlab

Yes that is true, but it is what digital does to the analogue signal, when it converts it. The signal chain boith in recording and replay is not perfect. There are to many chops and changes between types,Digital to analogue etc. I don't have a clear answer for you but I don't think anyone has a clear answer either. All I can say is that I prefer analogue through the recording and playback chain.And if I listen to Digital then I prefer it through valves. Maybe this has more to do with types of distortion inherent in the different formats/technology. Digital distortion sounding worse to our ears/minds than analogue distortion ?

Regards D S D L---Neil :)

anthonyTD
12-01-2009, 11:29
Perhaps Valves also share this(analogue) trait as well, sounding more natural and realistic for the most part to SS. Maybe this is why I prefer the sound of valve technology.

Regards D S D L---- Neil:)

yep,
agree,and also i think it is a lot to do with the type of harmonic structure both formats have in common, and their ability to portray it.
valves, and their respected circuitry are still in my opinion far superior to the run of the mill solid state designs still being churned out today, this i atribute a lot to the electron flow in a valve flowing freely in a vacume from cathode to anode with little or no resistance, in comparison a signal traveling through a solid state device can best be described as someone walking through a vat of treacle with wellies on.:lol:
anthony...:)

Marco
12-01-2009, 11:30
Yes, I do like SACD for classical, although I don't have that many discs in the genre (maybe 30 or so). And I certainly agree that we are talking about personal preferences here: in fact, I am not averse to playing classical vinyl, it's just that I find the surface noise, limited dynamic swings, side breaks etc. a little distracting.

For instance, one example: I have the fabulous Klaus Tennstedt recording of Mahler's 2nd Symphony on EMI on both formats. I owned the vinyl from when it was released in 1982 and know it very well. By the way, it's an analogue recording. When I first bought the CD, it didn't seem to offer anything more than the LPs but I didn't have the CDP then that I have now.

When I play the CD now, it reproduces that fff 'moment' in the first movement like a punch between the eyes. The LP just cannot reach that level of dynamic burst. During the sublime 'Urlicht' (fourth movement), the levels are very low and the tension incredibly high; the CD allows you to fall into that moment, the LP's surface noise is a big distraction. Finally, the CD plays the big fifth movement as one, the LP has a necessary side break.

As for the rest of the sound, the acoustic of the concert hall and the playing of the LPO come through very clearly in both formats and there is little to differentiate them. Overall, the CD sounds preferable to my ears.

All good and valid points, Martin.

If I ever get into Classical music seriously I'll offer you my view on which recorded format I consider superior between CD and vinyl :)

Marco.

Marco
12-01-2009, 11:34
Yes that is true, but it is what digital does to the analogue signal, when it converts it. The signal chain boith in recording and replay is not perfect. There are to many chops and changes between types,Digital to analogue etc. I don't have a clear answer for you but I don't think anyone has a clear answer either. All I can say is that I prefer analogue through the recording and playback chain.And if I listen to Digital then I prefer it through valves. Maybe this has more to do with types of distortion inherent in the different formats/technology. Digital distortion sounding worse to our ears/minds than analogue distortion ?


Completely agree :)

Anthony, LOL!

Marco.

Spectral Morn
12-01-2009, 11:36
I was thinking that perhaps the free flow of signal through gas was a more natural event, than it going through the more dense molecules that make up Solid State components. Yes harmonics must be altered by this factor. Thank you AnthonyTD you have put flesh and detail onto what I was thinking.

The hows and wherefores at the end of the day are interesting and vital to our understanding, but for me it, is sitting and both listening and enjoying the music that is most important.

Regards D S D L---- Neil :)

Marco
12-01-2009, 11:38
I was thinking that perhaps the free flow of signal through gas was a more natural event, than it going through the more dense molecules that make up Solid State components. Yes harmonics must be altered by this factor. Thank you AnthonyTD you have put flesh and detail onto what I was thinking.


He's good at that. That's why he's here, and why I use his amps ;)

Marco.

P.S Neil, someone will have to teach you how to use the quote facility!

MartinT
12-01-2009, 11:43
valves, and their respected circuitry are still in my opinion far superior to the run of the mill solid state designs still being churned out today

Perhaps so, but what about comparing what the best of both methodologies can offer? While valves seemingly have higher bandwidth and linearity, and transistors suffer from e.g. the Miller effect, there is always impedance matching to consider. Transistors can drive an 8 Ohm load fairly naturally, almost all valve circuits cannot without the aid of a transformer. Valves need high voltage power supplies, transistors high current. And so on.

I think that the best of breed valve and transistor amps are all superb, albeit suiting different types of system. I have a powerful transistor amp right now and appreciate its combination of delicacy and visceral impact, but I have been a (Croft) valve user in the past (I still have a rare Croft SIP preamp and Series 4S power amp in the garage) and appreciate the valve sound too.

Mike
12-01-2009, 11:43
Think about it...
Vinyl is effectively an unlimited sample rate source that has none of the digital nasties over its effective analogue frequency range.

Better digital audio is measured mainly on having a higher sample rate that will never be able to reach infinity.

So why is digital better??

Well I've said it before and I don't mind saying is again:

One day someone will 're-invent' analogue.

"Ooh look!... A technique that captures a whole note instead of umpteen little slices of it!... Why didn't we think of that before?"

:)

anthonyTD
12-01-2009, 11:47
The main diffrence and of course the downside of valves compared to solid state devices is that in a vacuum tube the electrons actually leave one place and end up somewhere else ie, from cathode to anode, this is why a vacuum tube slowly but surely wears out, because the constant elecron stripping comes from a non infinite source ie from a complicated mix of chemicals and materials that make up the cathode. in a solid state device, the electron flow works by displacement, ie, the elecron that enters the begining or source of the device is not the same one that exits out of the output.
hope this makes sense.
anthony...

Spectral Morn
12-01-2009, 11:55
Hi MartinT, the purpose of Solid States creation was to cut costs and simplify the production of Audio( as well as reducing size,weight,excessive heat( class A was obviously not meant to be the main type of SS design, though it does sound better IMHO) and the life of the valves themselves). The quality of the output transformers( time consuming to wind and design right) used in valve amps will make or break the sound. All you have to do is match the right type of speaker to the right type of valve amp. Silly loads and overly complex designs grew out of Solid States generally better ability to drive difficult complex loads (though not always, matching here, as in valve amps is also important). All these more complex designs and loads do is strip away the sound and make it harder to hear what is in the signal. Simplicity has its rewards and this is very true in audio. Why make more and more complex designs when logic says to keep it pure. All you need to do is avoid as much as possible any unnecessary stages in the signal path, and any that are there must be as high quality as possible and low impact (to the precious signal).

Lets cherish and nuture the delicate and not beat/strain it to death. Let the music grow, unharmed and unmolested.

Regards D S D L----Neil :)

StanleyB
12-01-2009, 12:00
Stanley, are you a bit grumpy this morning? ;)
Do you remember the Boom Town Rats hit 'I don't Like Mondays'?

Filterlab
12-01-2009, 12:02
Hi Filterlab

Yes that is true, but it is what digital does to the analogue signal, when it converts it. The signal chain boith in recording and replay is not perfect.

It's never perfect, be it analogue or digital. It's worth bearing in mind that most vinyl in recent years (probably since the late 80s) has been digitally recorded before being cut to LP anyway, so who's to say what one is actually hearing?


All I can say is that I prefer analogue through the recording and playback chain.

Of course, this is the crux of everything in the world of audio, it's down to preference. I prefer digital replay for it's cold cleanliness and inky black background, something which (for me) analogue can't touch regardless of set-up, it's just not in its nature.

Marco
12-01-2009, 12:06
Martin,


Transistors can drive an 8 Ohm load fairly naturally, almost all valve circuits cannot without the aid of a transformer. Valves need high voltage power supplies, transistors high current. And so on.


Indeed. However, in my experience none of the above makes a valve amp in any way sound musically (i.e. how it treats the music signals we've been mentioning) inferior to a solid-state amp. That's the point I feel; whereas the 'negatives', which have been mentioned with solid-state amps, to my ears intrude more negatively on the music they reproduce.

I own 8 Ohm speakers and have used them extensively with both my Copper valve amp and ECS monoblocks with the same system over a long period of time. Unquestionably to my ears, the Copper amp (transformers included) is superior in all areas important to the faithful reproduction of music by a significant margin, and it has no problem either driving the Spendors - indeed the speakers are driven better than they are with the 200W ECS monoblocks, and trust me they are very good amps, easily as good as your Chord.

It always shocks me at how much more 'powerful' and 'louder' the sound appears, through appropriate speakers (suitable for both valve and solid-state gear), with 30W of pure Class A valve power than 200W of solid-state. It sounds fantastic right now, and my speaker journey is far from over, so one wonders how much more there is still to come with the likes of high efficiency open baffle or horn designs...

This is the bottom line, though, I'm afraid with valves v. solid-state, as neither is perfect: which of the technology's negative aspects impacts most on the music. For me it's those of solid-state. However there are still some excellent solid-state amps around - you pays your money and takes your choice.

Marco.

Marco
12-01-2009, 12:17
Of course, this is the crux of everything in the world of audio, it's down to preference. I prefer digital replay for it's cold cleanliness and inky black background, something which (for me) analogue can't touch regardless of set-up, it's just not in its nature.


Rob, don't get me wrong, you're right to prefer this if that's what floats your boat, but surely that kind of stuff is much more about hi-fi than it is about music?

No offence, matey, but I feel that you sometimes analyse things too much on a 'sound' basis...

Marco.

Filterlab
12-01-2009, 12:25
Rob, don't get me wrong, you're right to prefer this if that's what floats your boat, but surely that kind of stuff is much more about hi-fi than it is about music?

No offence, matey, but I feel that you sometimes analyse things too much on a 'sound' basis...

You're right and I think it comes from being a musician to be honest, and I am an analytical person (which is why my MD pays me so well ;)). It is more about hi-fi than music to a degree, but I still enjoy the music which is obviously the point of a hi-fi. I naturally seek out that clinical edge and digital has always 'done it' for me, albeit moreso recently than previously.

However, don't let that coerce you into believing that I do not enjoy vinyl replay, you know I do as you saw my reaction at the Manchester hi-fi show to the Coherent set-up, and I will get round to purchasing a turntable. Who knows, maybe it'll swing my opinion round towards analogue? Remember before that Manchester show I'd never even considered using a computer as a source and the next day I sold my CD player and haven't looked back since. Nothing's set in stone, but for now I simply love digital replay, and I mean LOVE it. :)

Doesn't mean I'm right though, or wrong either.

Marco
12-01-2009, 12:49
Hi MartinT, the purpose of Solid States creation was to cut costs and simplify the production of Audio( as well as reducing size,weight,excessive heat( class A was obviously not meant to be the main type of SS design, though it does sound better IMHO) and the life of the valves themselves). The quality of the output transformers( time consuming to wind and design right) used in valve amps will make or break the sound. All you have to do is match the right type of speaker to the right type of valve amp. Silly loads and overly complex designs grew out of Solid States generally better ability to drive difficult complex loads (though not always, matching here, as in valve amps is also important). All these more complex designs and loads do is strip away the sound and make it harder to hear what is in the signal. Simplicity has its rewards and this is very true in audio. Why make more and more complex designs when logic says to keep it pure. All you need to do is avoid as much as possible any unnecessary stages in the signal path, and any that are there must be as high quality as possible and low impact (to the precious signal).

Lets cherish and nuture the delicate and not beat/strain it to death. Let the music grow, unharmed and unmolested.


Quite superb, and so true. I'm sure Anthony will completely agree with this. I'm liking you more and more each day, Neil! ;)

Incidentally, that's why I use an amp with the highest quality, bespoke, hand-wound transformers...

Marco.

anthonyTD
12-01-2009, 13:03
Quite superb, and true. I'm sure Anthony will completely agree with this. I'm liking you more and more each day, Neil! ;)

Incidentally, that's why I use an amp with the highest quality, bespoke, hand-wound transformers...

Marco.

spot on!!!
anthony...

Covenant
12-01-2009, 13:10
Without detracting at all from many of the previous posts which deserve their own thread, the topic started by Howard was manufacturers exibiting a relatively new culture of un-greed and I would love to hear more examples from people's experience.

(I just couldnt use the term off-topic its so rude) :)

Marco
12-01-2009, 13:13
Rob,


You're right and I think it comes from being a musician to be honest, and I am an analytical person (which is why my MD pays me so well ). It is more about hi-fi than music to a degree, but I still enjoy the music which is obviously the point of a hi-fi. I naturally seek out that clinical edge and digital has always 'done it' for me, albeit moreso recently than previously.


I know you're a very open-minded guy with hi-fi (although perhaps a little impulsive ;)) and so nothing for you will ever be set on stone. This is the correct mindset to have as it ensures that any mistakes made which weren't apparent before can still be rectified, which is crucial in my experience to one's long-term satisfaction with hi-fi.

Part of the beauty of an excellent turntable, I feel, is that it allows one more with music to concentrate on the 'message' rather than the 'carrier', and thus allows one to more easily switch off from the 'sound' and concentrate more on the music...

Hopefully your impending entry into the world of quality T/T ownership will allow you to discover what I mean for yourself to the greater enjoyment of your overall appreciation of music :)

Marco.

Filterlab
12-01-2009, 13:16
Rob,

I know you're a very open-minded guy with hi-fi (although perhaps a little impulsive ;)) and so nothing for you will ever be set on stone. This is the correct mindset to have as it ensures that any mistakes made which weren't apparent before can still be rectified, which is crucial in my experience to one's long-term satisfaction with hi-fi.

I have to ask this, why impulsive?

Marco
12-01-2009, 13:49
LOL! The reason is because of your near instantaneous abandonment of CD in favour of computer audio.

I would never have made such a fundamental decision to change my system so quickly no matter how sure I was of something I heard at a hi-fi show...

I take more time to analyse things in (often) microscopic detail before coming to a conclusive decision about anything in hi-fi or any equipment used, as you'll remember I described earlier in the thread. I'm not saying your method is wrong, but that's why I consider you much more impulsive in that respect than me.

The very fact that, even after on numerous occasions hearing computer audio outperform a high-end CDP using CD with the same music in the same system (not mine though, which is crucial) with the same (Sony) DAC, and I still haven't rushed out and bought such a set-up should tell you all you need to know ;)

But, like they say, we're all different :)

Marco.

Filterlab
12-01-2009, 14:10
Well, in my defense I had used CD as my primary source for 21 years with players ranging from budget to well into high end. I'd heard players from practically every manufacturer going and yet nothing from any CD player has ever touched the quality I was hearing from computer audio done properly. So after a huge amount of time I ditched CD players for good, and I've never been more happy with my hi-fi. I now hear music for what it is with no transport induced colouring something that, despite owning dozens of players, had always forced me to listen to a narrow percentage of my discs. I always promised myself that if I discovered a revelation I wouldn't stall and 'consider' the change (i.e. talk myself out of it), I promised myself that I'd go with my instinct and my heart rather than my head, and it's proved itself to be the right thing to do.

As for impulse decisions, I decided two years ago that I'd get a proper pair of hi-fi headphones and this week I'll take delivery of some. I've stuck with Audiolab amplifiers is various guises for the last ten years as that's what I've found to work for me. Aside from the MartinLogans (which I owned for three years) I've always stuck with standmount speakers as that's what works for me. In actual fact I'm probably the antithesis of impulse as I mull over decisions for eons (and I means eons) before actually finalising on anything, it even took me three months to decide on buying a new watch!

The decision to move to computer audio was the only decision I've ever moved quickly on and then it was far from a rash one and was certainly not impulsive. :)

Marco
12-01-2009, 14:30
That sums things up nicely, Rob. You should remember that I've only known you recently. The first time we met was at a hi-fi show and that was also when you appeared to make the near instantaneous decision to abandon CD, so you can perhaps appreciate how it looked ;)

I agree with you fully on "transport induced colouring", but the difference with me is that with having such a high quality CD transport in the first place, quite different from the norm, the improvement (or coloration induced) you refer to is tiny - the key with audiophile music streaming is really more in the quality of the DAC used. Since the DAS-R1 would be getting used for computer audio duties anyway, in all honesty, it's hard to be arsed going through the rigmarole of organising another set-up for a such a small gain in sonic performance, and there's only so much music you can listen to in a lifetime.

Factor that in with how I have no love affair with computers, and find the whole computer audio way of accessing one's music collection 'soulless', and that I've also got a superb T/T and decent vinyl collection, and you can see why I might not be so similarly motivated to change...

Anyway, the bottom line is that you're happier now with your system than you've ever been - job done! :)

Marco.

Spectral Morn
12-01-2009, 14:37
"Quite superb, and so true. I'm sure Anthony will completely agree with this. I'm liking you more and more each day, Neil! " Quote Marco


"Definitely post of the year!" Quote Marco :gig:


Thank you very much Marco, thank you.

Regards D S D L---- Neil :):):):):):)