View Full Version : Saw this
northwest
07-05-2012, 05:17
On another forum and thought I would post it here, some interesting comments at the end:
http://standpointmag.co.uk/node/4433/full
I particularly like this post from Michael Fremer. If it wasn't so long I'd have it as my sig... ;)
What a lame, condescending story—but amusing for its arrogance. I'll tell you what's "new": fast food. Burgers and fries. Fantastic! I'll tell you what's old: gourmet dining. So are people stupid enough to think that old gourmet dining beats burgers and fries? Some "nostalgia freaks" probably. Folks who think "new equals better" are as ridiculous as people who think "old equals better." Seriously though, you have made factual errors here. The Jarvi Beethoven symphony box to which I think you were referring, is not "vinyl only." It was issued first on SACD and then AT THE BEHEST OF MEMBERS OF THE STRING SECTION, an analog mix was prepared for the LP set. So look, if you are so incredibly ARROGANT as to suggest that the members of the orchestra are "flat earthers" who don't know what their music is supposed to sound like, well then knock yourself out! But you're making a pompous ass of yourself.
I've met a number of well known, highly accomplished classical musicians (and a few big name conductors) who are "vinyl people." They LIKE the sound. They prefer it. They think if done correctly it sounds more like live music. They are not so foolish as to think any recording sounds like live music, but they're convinced vinyl properly produced and reproduced comes closer to "live". And that also goes for many well known recording engineers who are vinyl fanatics and just are repelled by the sound of CDs as am I—and they surely know what their masters sound like. I heard my first CD at an AES in Los Angeles, prepared, based on what I'd read, to LOVE IT. But it sounded horrible. Flat, glazed, harmonically starved, edgy, bright and a-musical. It's gotten better (despite claims of perfection for it then and now), but high resolution digital sounds much better (and the same "perfection" toadies now claim high resolution is a "scam". What a joke. However, I also know many others who do prefer CDs because of their pitch perfection. Fine.
At Avery Fisher Hall two years ago I was introduced by a friend to Max Wilcox, Arthur Rubinstein's old producer at RCA. Rather than simply introducing me by name, my friend said "Max, I want you to meet a vinyl guy." Well!!!!!!! You'd think he'd introduced me as Pol Pot. Wilcox went on an anti-vinyl tirade aimed at me personally that by comparison makes your offensive scolding sound meek and mild-mannered. I just stood there and listened bemused and when Max had finished I told him what I'm about to tell you: I find it curious that most vinyl fans I know really don't care that you and others like you love your CDs and the sound that we think is sterile, flat, dimensionless and a-musical. That's what makes the world go 'round. Whatever you like! Knock yourself out. "Live and let live." But you guys get angry, go on tirades and angry scolds, publish condescending, arrogant insulting posts like the one above, or react as Wilcox did, rather than saying "whatever you like," or "whatever sounds good to you," or "whatever lets you enjoy recorded music," etc. For some reason you get REALLY UPSET that not everyone loves CD as much as you do, while LP folks really couldn't care less about your choice. And this tells me something: it tells me you're not really enjoying yourself listening to those polycarbonate biscuits as much as you claim you are, because if you really were, you wouldn't write the kind of bile filled excrement you've produced above.
Now that's what I call a slap-down :lol:
Andrew
Yup, a real 'Get thee behind me Satan' moment that one... :D
I particularly like this post from Michael Fremer. If it wasn't so long I'd have it as my sig... ;)
I dont care about people who love there CD's, he says whilst denouncing them as "...sterile, flat, dimensionless and a-musical" :rolleyes:
both digital and vinyl can sound good when implemented properly. there's so many variables: synergy between equipment is important, mastering and production has a big influence - crap in crap out, and all that.
rubbish digital replay is excruciating, as is a poorly set up TT with inferior vinyl
Indeed, although the put-down was funny!
Marco.
Indeed, although the put-down was funny!
Marco.
I didn't think Fremer had it in him but I certainly enjoyed it none the less... :lol:
I also think he has a point, and that the most vociferous of the anti-analogue/vinyl brigade are guilty of 'methinks the lady doth protest too much' syndrome...
Quite honestly, most of them haven't heard vinyl at anywhere near its best, to form a worthy opinion on the matter, so their 'opinion' is therefore usually best filed under 'shite' ;)
Marco.
Or more likely they haven't heard vinyl at all... :eyebrows:
Quite honestly, most of them haven't heard vinyl at anywhere near its best, to form a worthy opinion on the matter, so their 'opinion' is therefore usually best filed under 'shite' ;)
Marco.
That's certainly true, and they're never likely to when you consider all the faffing about and jumping through hoops required to get top analogue replay.
It used to be you got way more bang for your buck with a half decent TT in comparison to the money you could spend on a CD player, but HD audio has gone some way to redress the balance.
I agree, Paul, but it also depends on what one considers as "top analogue replay".
For some, it could simply be a Techy, fitted with a new mat and feet, and a decent cartridge. Quite a few need no more than that, and so the road to "top analogue replay" contains few hoops to be jumped through...! ;)
Marco.
I agree, Paul, but it also depends on what one considers as "top analogue replay".
For some, it could simply be a Techy, fitted with a new mat and feet, and a decent cartridge. Quite a few need no more than that, and so the road to "top analogue replay" contains few hoops to be jumped through...! ;)
Marco.
Absolutely - where does this idea come from that quality reproduction from vinyl needs to be complex and expensive? Deliberate disinformation or sheer ignorance IMO.
Took me 30 minutes to set upa Rega 3 for a mate (most of which was getting it level) total cost including cart £210 and it sounds absolutely wonderful - more involving than CD and easier to listen to as well.
I love the quoted last paragraph, as I was in the almost anti-vinyl camp for a while and fully understand the sentiments of the vinyl people not giving a stuff, yet the anti-vinyl people getting all hot under the collar :)
Which brings me to a little story. There's a manufacturer out there who is resolutely anti-vinyl and puts those of us LP lovers down as nostalgia freaks as often as possible whenever the topic comes up. An online friend of mine bought a springy belt drive deck from them that the yhad surplus to requirements (;)) and asked for help in setting it up. I have to say, the way the thing had been assembled showed little understanding at all. The suspension was all over the place, the arm was all wrong and with an ill judged cartridge choice in my view. All I can say is that had this deck been used as an "example" of how records sound, I'm really not at all surprised!!!
As for me, I have three people to thank - Big Moog here for his absolute patience in letting me rant on and on to his mainly TeeDee based forum HiFi thread, now long gone, hifi dave for letting me hear some new vinyl gear as well as some good old LP spinners again and lastly Marco, for his various challenges :)
We're getting there I think and as well as getting deeper into vinyl, my digital side is improving too, to the point where I get supreme enjoyment from both. Digital can have a heart and soul (just don't squidge it with false colouration;)) and vinyl doesn't have to sound noisy, band limited and "analogue plump" either...
Absolutely - where does this idea come from that quality reproduction from vinyl needs to be complex and expensive? Deliberate disinformation or sheer ignorance IMO.
Took me 30 minutes to set upa Rega 3 for a mate (most of which was getting it level) total cost including cart £210 and it sounds absolutely wonderful - more involving than CD and easier to listen to as well.
You should say - "More involving than CHEAP CD" methinks :lol:
I love the quoted last paragraph, as I was in the almost anti-vinyl camp for a while and fully understand the sentiments of the vinyl people not giving a stuff, yet the anti-vinyl people getting all hot under the collar
Which brings me to a little story. There's a manufacturer out there who is resolutely anti-vinyl and puts those of us LP lovers down as nostalgia freaks as often as possible whenever the topic comes up. An online friend of mine bought a springy belt drive deck from them that the yhad surplus to requirements... and asked for help in setting it up. I have to say, the way the thing had been assembled showed little understanding at all. The suspension was all over the place, the arm was all wrong and with an ill judged cartridge choice in my view. All I can say is that had this deck been used as an "example" of how records sound, I'm really not at all surprised!!!
As for me, I have three people to thank - Big Moog here for his absolute patience in letting me rant on and on to his mainly TeeDee based forum HiFi thread, now long gone, hifi dave for letting me hear some new vinyl gear as well as some good old LP spinners again and lastly Marco, for his various challenges.
We're getting there I think and as well as getting deeper into vinyl, my digital side is improving too, to the point where I get supreme enjoyment from both. Digital can have a heart and soul (just don't squidge it with false colouration) and vinyl doesn't have to sound noisy, band limited and "analogue plump" either...
An excellent and well-balanced post. Don't worry, we're also learning from you, too! :)
There's a manufacturer out there who is resolutely anti-vinyl and puts those of us LP lovers down as nostalgia freaks as often as possible whenever the topic comes up.
Would that be AJ of AVI, and his cronies? If so, it doesn't surprise me in the least. Balloons, the lot of them! :wanker:
Back on topic, a lightly-fettled Techy (as described), used in conjunction with, say, a Croft Micro 25 Basic (a £400 brand new valve preamp, with quality bulit-in MM phono stage) would most certainly produce "top analogue replay", with near-zero faffing-about factor, and would take A LOT for any CDP or streaming set-up to beat! ;)
Marco.
You should say - "More involving than CHEAP CD" methinks :lol:
No I'm not going to go back on that - my comment remains unqualified. ;)
Incidentally none of the digital replay systems at this years Scalford bettered the sound I get (in my system) from my £300 in 1997 Sony CDP. Some of which, I believe, were quite expensive. I also prefer it to my (£850) Cambridge 840c.
Your mileage may vary.
I think what Dave meant was CRAP CD, which could either be cheap or expensive! ;)
The initiated amongst us are well aware of what the best vintage CDPs and DACs are sonically capable of, and how much SPPV they offer....
Marco.
Absolutely - where does this idea come from that quality reproduction from vinyl needs to be complex and expensive? Deliberate disinformation or sheer ignorance IMO.
Took me 30 minutes to set upa Rega 3 for a mate (most of which was getting it level) total cost including cart £210 and it sounds absolutely wonderful - more involving than CD and easier to listen to as well.
Yeah, it's incredible how little time is required to set up a Rega 'plug & play' TT only to sit back have the enamel stripped off your teeth, and that's through an amp and speakers that were built before the advent of digital. :D
new 180g stuff don't sound too bad though.
Yeah, it's incredible how little time is required to set up a Rega 'plug & play' TT only to sit back have the enamel stripped off your teeth, and that's through an amp and speakers that were built before the advent of digital. :D
new 180g stuff don't sound too bad though.
Paul I wanted to get him an SL1200 so the Rega was not my choice and I did not expect it to sound very good. But it does and there is no enamel stripping -like me he is very fussy about SQ and if the deck didn't cut it then it would be out the door. Amp is a big Rotel from about 2001 and speakers are Ruark Templars, probabaly late 1990s.
Paul I wanted to get him an SL1200 so the Rega was not my choice and I did not expect it to sound very good. But it does and there is no enamel stripping -like me he is very fussy about SQ and if the deck didn't cut it then it would be out the door. Amp is a big Rotel from about 2001 and speakers are Ruark Templars, probabaly late 1990s.
each to there own i guess Martin, different people different standards, different rooms, components, etc.
I suspect my TT isn't as 'plug & play' as it should be, i'm saving myself for the whole load of tweakery I got coming when i eventually finish my Lenco :mental: then we'll see if digital still rules the roost :)
vinyl pissery isn't only confined to set up btw, hope your mates stealing himself for the inevitable feeling of being ripped off when he pops on his new shinny vinyl only to be confronted with the authentic sound of nice, roaring open fire - quickly followed by the dismay of having to fork out for return postage, only to realize the entire shop batch is equally soiled. :lol:
vinyl pissery isn't only confined to set up btw, hope your mates stealing himself for the inevitable feeling of being ripped off when he pops on his new shinny vinyl only to be confronted with the authentic sound of nice, roaring open fire - quickly followed by the dismay of having to fork out for return postage, only to realize the entire shop batch is equally soiled. :lol:
:lol: well on that we won't disagree - however whe is even older than me with a fair-sized record collection bought back in the 70s and 80s. He is also as tight as a duck's arse so I cannot see him paying £25 for a record anytime soon.
Good luck with the Lenco build, I have heard a couple of rebuilds they were phenomenal performers.
hope your mates stealing himself for the inevitable feeling of being ripped off when he pops on his new shinny vinyl only to be confronted with the authentic sound of nice, roaring open fire...
I know not of this experience... Is it some new phenomenon? :)
Marco.
:lol: well on that we won't disagree - however whe is even older than me with a fair-sized record collection bought back in the 70s and 80s. He is also as tight as a duck's arse so I cannot see him paying £25 for a record anytime soon.
Good luck with the Lenco build, I have heard a couple of rebuilds they were phenomenal performers.
A wise man indeed your mate, Martin. That means he wont have to source proper inner sleeves to replace the crap cardboard ones that seem house (or should that be scratch) all new vinyl these day. :)
Thanks. when the sun eventually comes out, I'll get on and finish the lenco. It's certainly not a winter project, if anyone else is thinking of doing one.
I know not of this experience... Is it some new phenomenon? :)
Marco.
it's called the 'Rice Krispies filter', Marco - liberally applied during almost all new vinyl pressings, just to make the vinyl listening experience that bit more authentic. :lol:
ursus262
07-05-2012, 10:59
I've had a look at the website. Looks to me like a very reactionary right-wing blog to me. And anything with that old hag in it, Melanie Phillips, is bound to be!
it's called the 'Rice Krispies filter', Marco - liberally applied during almost all new vinyl pressings, just to make the vinyl listening experience that bit more authentic.
Lol... Can't say I've experienced that, but then no black plastic, new or used, gets near me ol' Dansette, without first saying hello to 'Mr VPI' ;)
Marco.
btw Marco, i think there's a strong case for AOS presenting the phrase 'vinyl pissery' to the New Oxford Dictionary :)
Lol... Can't say I've experienced that, but then no black plastic, new or used, gets near me ol' Dansette, without first saying hello to 'Mr VPI' ;)
Marco.
indeed, Mr VPI - for select clients only. :lol:
btw Marco, i think there's a strong case for AOS presenting the phrase 'vinyl pissery' to the New Oxford Dictionary.
Yes, I quite like it. It would sit rather neatly alongside 'Music Streaming Smegma'... :eyebrows:
Marco.
btw Marco, i think there's a strong case for AOS presenting the phrase 'vinyl pissery' to the New Oxford Dictionary :)
What would be the definition?
What would be the definition?
i'll have to think about that Martin and get back to you :scratch:
where do you start? Maybe we should canvass opinions first and come up with a list. I guess it could be as long as you want it to be - it could wind up filling a number of pages :)
More of an Encyclopedia entry then. One defintion might be 'spending several hours trying to get a tonearm level before realising that the only way it is going to happen is to contravene the basic laws of physics'. I've been there...
Back on topic, a lightly-fettled Techy (as described), used in conjunction with, say, a Croft Micro 25 Basic (a £400 brand new valve preamp, with quality bulit-in MM phono stage) would most certainly produce "top analogue replay", with near-zero faffing-about factor, and would take A LOT for any CDP or streaming set-up to beat! ;)
Marco.
Well whaddya know that is exactly what I have. (mods are replaced output cables with Monster - yeah I know but I didn't do it - Cork mat with label recess, Sumiko headshell and currently a Nagaoka cartridge) Sounds magic, but replace the Croft pre-amp with a Linn LK1 and the magic vanishes like the morning dew. It is quite disconcerting, actually. Anyways six o'clock I am off for a session, massive amounts of new (i.e old) vinyl to listen to and beer to drink :cool:
That's the effect of a good, hard-wired, valve phono stage, Martin! ;)
Marco.
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