View Full Version : Sub Woofers in ya system!
icehockeyboy
30-04-2012, 11:53
Many people in that other forum were definitely against the use of a sub in a 2 channel set up, I am all for them, and before anyone possibly shoots me down, let me ask this, when (if ever ) did you go to a live gig where the bass didn't kick you in the chest? Well, assuming the sound guy did his job properly!
I was listening to Larry Carlton's stuff on Spotify, and there were many live tracks that just sounded so good, especially with the sub doing it's duty, I had occasion to disconnect it as I was decorating at the time, and the sound just collapsed without it! :u
realysm42
30-04-2012, 12:02
If you've not got some serious full range speakers, why would you be against (a properly set up) sub?
As any othre piece of equipment I'd say there are considerations to the impact of the overall sound, but I've got one and there's no way I'd get rid of it.
Having said that, if I had speakers that could go as low and loud as some, I'd reconsider. I'm sure there's a lot to be said for a speaker that can hit all ranges.
I used to run a REL Studio II, which is 90kg of serious subwoofer, with my (then) JM Lab Mezzo Utopias. This combo was excellent and seamless. I recommend a sub for any system that misses the bottom octaves - much preferable to not having any bass at all.
Now I don't need a sub as my Usher Be-20s sport twin 11" woofers per side.
Surely it's best to get some speakers that do enough bass to start with.
There can be many reasons why this isn't possible. It took my huge Ushers to dispense with the need for a sub, so do you think that everyone should get equally large speakers? Also, we're not really talking about bass, more sub-bass octaves (e.g. 30Hz down).
The tricky thing though is getting a sub to integrate properly with the main speakers, which is much harder to do in 2-channel duties, with music, than it is in an AV set-up. Almost every time I've heard subs used in the former way, the bass seems 'detached' from the rest of the sound, and this totally f*cks up coherence, and thus any hope of achieving realism, when reproducing music.
Indeed, I'm so used now to the phenomenal time-aligned coherence and pin-point imaging, offered by large dual-concentric Tannoys, that I find listening to multiple-drive unit speakers rather strange (never mind subs), until my ears readjust to the different presentation. I dare say it's the same for others coming at it from the opposite direction.
If you really need a sub, then by all means add one, but I'd much rather use big speakers in huge cabinets instead, with equally big drive units, like Martin's Ushers or my Tannoys, as then you get kick-ass bass, which is also properly integrated! ;)
Marco.
I've heard small speakers put out plenty of bass so i think if you choose carefully you should not need a sub.
An example neat mystiques went far lower than tannoy ardens both in the same size room.
Foot print of the neats are about 12x12 inches.
Probably smaller than most bookshelves with stands.
Should add if you want or need a sub go for it.
I prefer not to.
Werner Berghofer
30-04-2012, 13:37
Craig,
my pair of floor-standing Triangle Esprit speakers I use in the living room offers great bass, but in the nearfield setup in my office based on KRK Rokit 5 active speakers a subwoofer tremendously has improved the sound.
Werner.
camtwister
30-04-2012, 14:04
I wouldn't disagree that if you are able to accomodate full range drivers and/or cabs, then a sub should not be on the shopping list. However, if you're not in that fortunate position, the use of a sub can be beneficial.
It's all about integration. If you are prepared to spend significant time analysing response and ensuring that you have phase and time alignment, the results can be musical.
I think I've listened to CDs of frequency sweeps and pink noise more than any other album!
Get it wrong and the low-bass will appear to come from a car parked across the street.
You'll need a unit designed for music use, rather than 'home theatre'. REL and BK models are worth auditioning. I use MOSFET powered 450W 15" and 250W 12" units in sealed enclosures, independently in two separate systems. The drivers are long excursion. I have the facilities to adjust phase continually through 180 degrees and frequency response from 10Hz to 120Hz. I can choose low-level inputs to the sub from my pre-amp or choose to piggy-back high-level signals from my power amps. Of course, they have independent gain, also.
When using 2-3W single ended amps at moderate SPLs, the active sub is a good way to extend response.
One other benefit of active subs is, that when desired...
you can always turn them off!
Hi Johnny,
It's all about integration. If you are prepared to spend significant time analysing response and ensuring that you have phase and time alignment, the results can be musical.
Get it wrong and the low-bass will appear to come from a car parked across the street.
Spot on. However, how many people have the patience and the wherewithal to successfully achieve the above? Most folk aren't technically minded and just want 'plug & play', without fuss.
You'll need a unit designed for music use, rather than 'home theatre'...
Indeed - and then be prepared to endlessly fart about to get things right! The bit below, says it all... ;)
I think I've listened to CDs of frequency sweeps and pink noise more than any other album!
Marco
Reid Malenfant
30-04-2012, 15:31
Go active & add a DSPeaker 8033 & simply calibrate the thing, jobs a good one :eyebrows:
While I admit it took me a while to integrate my Paradigm DSP-3400 to the main speakers, the results with feeding everything below 100Hz via the 8033 was more than worthwhile.
Besides which I thought this was about subwoofers, not bass? If your speakers can only reproduce down to 30Hz then you are missing at least an octave of information. Pipe organ can reproduce a fundamental of 16Hz without breaking a sweat, the type of music I generally listen to has a whole load of sub 20Hz information.
I'd be hacked off if I couldn't hear or feel it. To me a full range system must be able to reproduce down to 15Hz or below :)
Indeed. However, creating a palpable sense of scale is a different thing again from ultimate bass extension. There are speakers which go much lower than my Tannoys do, but few achieve their visceral sense of scale...
Ya needs huge drive units in bloody big enclosures to achieve a genuine sense of SCALE and massive bass extension. Having drive units which go down to 15Hz, but housing them in anything other than huge, 'f*ck off' cabs, just won't cut it! I'm not telling you anything that you don't know already... ;)
Marco.
Reid Malenfant
30-04-2012, 15:46
Ya needs huge drive units in bloody big enclosures to achieve a genuine sense of SCALE and massive bass extension. Having drive units which go down to 15Hz, but housing them in anything other than huge, 'f*ck off' cabs, just won't cut it! ;)
Marco.
Yes, I'll go along with that :)
Coming to a venue in East Angular soon.... :eyebrows:
I like the flexibility that a sub gives me. As I live in a small semi-detached cottage with elderly neighbours, there are times where deep bass would be anti-social, so I can switch the sub off those times.
Indeed - and then be prepared to endlessly fart about to get things right! The bit below, says it all... ;)
To be fair, there's a world of difference between a horrible AV boom-box sub designed to shake the house at the slightest provocation from a film, and a sub designed to integrate properly into two channels of music. REL make the latter and they can be adjusted to integrate seamlessly, especially when they are connected high level from the amp's outputs where they acquire the overall system's sound.
REL's best subs are the big ones, which are admittedly not inexpensive.
Reid Malenfant
30-04-2012, 18:55
Didn't you have the REL Studio Martin? That's the one to have in all honesty :cool:
camtwister
30-04-2012, 19:18
However, how many people have the patience and the wherewithal to successfully achieve the above? Most folk aren't technically minded and just want 'plug & play' without fuss.
Quote:
You'll need a unit designed for music use, rather than 'home theatre'...
Indeed - and then be prepared to endlessly fart about to get things right! The bit below, says it all... ;)
Quote:
I think I've listened to CDs of frequency sweeps and pink noise more than any other album!
It's the audiophool's hairshirt, Marco. Penance undertaken for the salvation of good sound.
;)
Didn't you have the REL Studio Martin?
It was a Studio II. That thing could seriously move air with its twin Volt drivers.
Reid Malenfant
30-04-2012, 21:59
It was a Studio II. That thing could seriously move air with its twin Volt drivers.
:thumbsup: I was I out :doh:
Nice to :D
StanleyB
01-05-2012, 07:17
One thing that I have noticed is that if you got a speaker with a passive radiator and an audio system that is fast paced, the bass from the passive radiator can produce a muddled bass.
When I used full-range 3-way speakers I still wanted an extra underpin in the bass. I used 2 REL Storms back then. One issue I have is that I rarely like speakers positioned close to the rear wall, I want a more open mid-range which tends to come from the speakers being placed about 1m into the room. Many speakers for the UK market have their bass alignment setup for use closer to the rear wall than 1m. Trying to optimise mid and bass can result in conflicting positioning requirements. Using subwoofers or active bass control can help immensely.
There are some fundamentals to get right such that you achieve good integration, ie matching reflex bass with reflex main speakers or dipole bass with dipoles main speakers so you maintain a similar character. Not having too steep a roll off from your subwoofers aids integration considerably too.
Once you set up the phase, xover and level to achieve deep and suitably powerful bass you may end up with troublesome standing waves / resonances due to your room dimensions. It comes with the territory....subwoofer placement and killing the sound in room corners with some form of bass traps is a starting point. I've got one bad corner into which I've placed some non-reflective material, you don't necessarily need commercial bass traps.
My rooms's especially bad, it has a low ceiling and is essentially square with a bay on one end, this doubles up bass resonances at the problem frequencies my room dictates. I use DSP to fix these problems, it is very, very effective. I don't have subwoofers as such now, the drivers are built into the main baffles so this is more of an active bass setup. I feel this sort of setup would be useful with many floorstanders as a lot of room matching issues are down to the speaker bass tuning vs the room - so make the bass tuneable please! Of course this adds cost but in these days of class D amps (powerful ones for the bass) and low cost DSP units it should be viable.
electric beach
01-05-2012, 10:35
Once you set up the phase, xover and level to achieve deep and suitably powerful bass you may end up with troublesome standing waves / resonances due to your room dimensions. I use DSP to fix these problems, it is very, very effective. In these days of class D amps and low cost DSP units it should be viable.
Absolutely Clive ;)
I gave up on large floorstanders in a typical English sized room for a while, the TDL 0.1M being the height of my folly. I love the many things that adding a subwoofer / reproducing the lowest frequencies can do, besides the actual bass note extension; adding scale and presence, the downward harmonics of higher frequencies that make sounds noticably more real and with a large driver, the volume of air movement. Getting a DSPeaker unit easily removed the necessary evils, although as a line level only device I do miss the effect of taking the sub signal from the main amp.
It was when I "discovered" wide range single drivers in horn speakers that using a sub really lifted the level of reality. I used to hit drums, so I know what a complex sound a cymbal is, where it's struck and with what material.
The timbral correctness is demonstratively more important than the high frequency ceiling of the drivers. Same applies for any sound. Ironically I find that a sub gives the perception of the frequency range that brings more satisfying high frequencies than extending them with a supertweeeter.
As you say Clive, although it may not be the ultimate, a chip amp with efficient speakers and a controlled sub can deliver a surprising percentage of what is possible at an attainable price for the majority. When you add the benefit of great "visual" sound from a music based system it becomes a very attractive and practical proposition.
I used a REL Strata 11 but found it gave a distracting low thump. The 15" driver of my Velodyne CHT15E gives much better intergation and result, but does need DSP to tame it.
Hi Steve,
We are indeed very much in agreement! I should clarify that my class D comment was intended for the bass amps - I had in mind some of the integrated Behringer DSP / xover and class D power amps (300W+).
As for chip amps for the main speakers - absolutely! If the speakers only need a watt or two then chip amps can be some of the best watts you can feed them. I''ve found a lot of similarities but some key differences between Topping TA2020, Helder TA2020 and the Bantam Gold (ADAU1592). What is still crucial is the preamp....but I digress, as usual.
maxrob200
07-05-2012, 03:12
IMO, as with others on the forum, most AV subs are way too slow to integrate well with speakers in a 2 channel setup. Plenty of slam for the explosions and such in movies but totally dis-jointed when playing music.
icehockeyboy
07-05-2012, 12:13
IMO, as with others on the forum, most AV subs are way too slow to integrate well with speakers in a 2 channel setup. Plenty of slam for the explosions and such in movies but totally dis-jointed when playing music.
Possibly why REL have two options....one for "slam" the other for "depth" ?
Adding a modern REL to my work system was the best value for money upgrade Ive ever made to it. I was amazed that it took all of ten minutes to integrate its output with my Martin Logans. Ive messed with it since but always returned to the settings I first put in place. No software neccessary and the bass it produces is FUNKY.
Ive seen very few AFFORDABLE ,DOMESTICALLY ACCEPTABLE speakers that reach down to 18hz with ease......
Once you've had a full range speakers system you wont be eager to go back to a more limited bandwidth.
Reid Malenfant
09-05-2012, 16:31
Once you've had a full range speakers system you wont be eager to go back to a more limited bandwidth.
Amen to that :) If you ever find a few hundred pounds spare, treat yourself & your sub to a DSPeaker 8033 (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Anti-Mode-8033-Subwoofer-eq-Suits-REL-SVS-BK-Etc-/370611361296?pt=UK_AudioVideoElectronics_HomeAudio HiFi_HiFiSpeakers&hash=item564a289610), otherwise known as an Antimode.
You really won't ever want to go back to using a sub without DSP. There is as much difference as there is adding a sub & getting that full range sound :D
Even if your sub is a sealed box it'll still get rid of room modes & make the sub sound even faster & give by far flatter response in the room.
That's really interesting. Thanks for the tip mark. I'm not eager to plug anything else for my hifi, got plugs all over the place but may be tempted at such reasonable cost.
Reid Malenfant
09-05-2012, 16:50
That's really interesting. Thanks for the tip mark. I'm not eager to plug anything else for my hifi, got plugs all over the place but may be tempted at such reasonable cost.
It only works on frequencies below 150Hz. Though I should say that it corrects frequencies up to 150Hz. If you happen to have the xover on the REL set lower then it will still correct up to 150Hz but obviously with the xover rolloff it won't be doing as much.
The thing to do when setting it up is set the REL flat (no xover) & let it do it's thing. Then set the REL to your preferred setting, sit back & become gobsmacked :eyebrows:
Just to show how I put my money where my mouth is I now own 3 x 8033 mono units & 1 x 8033s stereo unit. Left & right front use one each, the other mono 8033 will be used on the centre channel & the 8033s will be used for bass on the rear channels (combined below 110Hz).
I'm not in the habit of spending that kind of money unless I get more than my moneys worth, & I know I will :cool:
electric beach
09-05-2012, 18:17
I've been experimenting with a few different configurations of my system, one without the DSPeaker 8033, taking the feed from the amp terminals. Outside the room it sounded pretty good but inside the room interaction was so obvious. There's no going back when you've had one - but I didn't realise they were addictive! Or are you breeding them Mark?
Reid Malenfant
09-05-2012, 18:22
but I didn't realise they were addictive! Or are you breeding them Mark?
:lol: Not exactly no.
As I have a 5 channel system & it'll be going fully active on all 5 channels, I really didn't want to do without that lovely clean bass on all of them :)
As long as whatever speaker setup is set to "large" in the Oppo player then it'll feed deep bass to any channel if it's on the disc.
By the way, you could feed the 8033 from the speaker outputs of your setup with a little bit of work.
I moved over to the farkside when I went for open baffles, using active bass. I now have DSP too and in my room I found this the best for my set up
Lots of slam and no intergration issues
I moved over to the farkside...
Farkside? That sounds like fun! Can I come, too? :D
Marco.
electric beach
10-05-2012, 11:59
:
By the way, you could feed the 8033 from the speaker outputs of your setup with a little bit of work.
How so Mark?
I've just tried feeding the sub from my Dac as it has two sets of outputs, taking the preamp out of the chain. I can't make a direct comparison of the benefits of coming from the amp outputs due to the line feed to 8033, but somehow there always seems something "right" coming from the amp, despite the bloom - or maybe because of it :lol:
Farkside? That sounds like fun! Can I come, too? :D
Marco.
Lol its a mad alternative world were few dare to thread;)
Reid Malenfant
10-05-2012, 17:31
How so Mark?
I've just tried feeding the sub from my Dac as it has two sets of outputs, taking the preamp out of the chain. I can't make a direct comparison of the benefits of coming from the amp outputs due to the line feed to 8033, but somehow there always seems something "right" coming from the amp, despite the bloom - or maybe because of it :lol:
What you'd need to do is make up a resistor divider network to lower the output from the amplifier to line level. It's exactly the same thing that's used on the high level inputs on a lot of subwoofers.
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